Mini 1769: Ice Cream Mafia - Game over!

[Aquanim]

@everyone else

: Even if you already have an opinion of Kain in the thread, I still want to see your thoughts on #642.

[Aquanim]

@Thor

: Do you have avatars turned on?

[Keyser Söze]

Phoenix Wright (47 posts)

Null on his first 11 posts.
It was at this point where I was wondering why Phoenix Wright still had his vote on mn. Phoenix Wright unvotes: (post 113). I could see the cogs moving during this change of read. Nothing scummy there.
Phoenix Wright reads Slandaar's vote wrongly (?) as RVS. No coffee spilt.

@massive What are your reads right now?

I'd flag this as a vague question, not a penetrating question.

I'm starting to not like Keysor's posts. He seemed to be making good points at first, but now he's just flipping a round and looking for any little thing to nitpick. Bluebloodedtoffee hasn't said much yet, and that's worrisome because people who Barry post are generally people taut you can't trust. The same goes for telltaleheart.

Focus has been on myself, BBT and TTH, Phoenix Wright chips in with his own opinion. Will Phoenix Wright follow this up with pressure? Nope, we never do.

Yes, town-Phoenix Wright is allowed to be angry here, I can see how my words may have seemed hypocritical (post 183).

I can see why town-Phoenix Wright could be frustrated with KainTepes' flipflopping (post 209).

I am noticing Phoenix Wright is never the first to engage discussion points.

Until...
Phoenix Wright's post 311 makes me want to relook at the early OceanWind-Golden Robster-Masquerade exchange.

Replaces out...

Read so far:

Meh, I won't be voting/lynching Phoenix Wright on that.

Boonskiies next.

[Keyser Söze]

Boonskiies (23 posts)

Boonskiies shares some town/scum reads. Don't know how he got them though: (post 481).
Calls me "holy Keyscum Soze" - I expect pressure/questions, which I never get.
Boonskiies happy to identify his Golden Robster scum-read as an "association from mn": post 541.

Meh. Why not?

VOTE: Keyser

Another dissatisfying reason/vote on my wagon. I'm still not understanding his strong scum read on me ("holy Keyscum Soze") - but he's not trying to share his scum-read/reasons of me to anyone, why not? He should be proud of it, if his read is strong.

Looks like you've just gotten irritated that you are caught out as scum and really don't have many reasons why.

I would never had described the argument/reason on me as "caught out as scum".

And immediately after, you target GuyFawkes, who was just tied with 2nd biggest wagon a couple of pages back. Easy wagon to manipulate onto.

Boonskiies believes I am opportunistic wagon jumping. Does this mean Boonskiies town-reads GuyFawkes? Noted.

I have a paranoia of TTH, but I don't want to delve into that right now. Nothing she's doing is scummy to me or anything. I actually like her input. I'm just....aaah. I never know how to deal with her.

I don't know what this is saying - but let's keep our eyes on TTH(?)


Talks to KainTepes about the possible opportunistic scum on his wagon:

It's probably Keyser and TTH.

But then a moment later open to lynch KainTepes

with

TTH:

Nah, I'm down to lynch Kain with you if you want.

Nah, that's not right.

Boonskiies slips into the

'not feeling much town vibes'

pile.

[Keyser Söze]

@everyone else

: Even if you already have an opinion of Kain in the thread, I still want to see your thoughts on #642.

- There is nothing redeeming about the reads Kain has made, and I don't see any coherent town thought process behind his switching from one to the next. I think there should be one if he's capable of these observations:

Agreed. Still waiting. There's ample of material to support our reads now (30 pages worth), whether they be town, null or scum reads.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1769 - Day 1 Thoughts #2

1. Boon claims Massive always contributes...

10 or so contentless posts...

every game in 631.

The problem is not the lurking, it's the lack of anything substandial in his posts. I saw his scum play in that last game.... His posts actually did have some content to them, but I have to agree about the meta of barely posting.

2. In 632, Boon claims I may be town-tunneling Keyser -

That is definitely a possibility, but I really do feel pretty strong in my townread of Keyser. His wagon seems to be the results of poor reasoning, albeit that might be true of all the current wagons. I will try to keep that in mind.

3. Aqua wants to know why people townread Kein in post 642 -

I already told you why -- He soft-claimed early.

PS: I don't think this lynch will happen; sh!!!

Also, Kein is being Kein. I have learned that meta is actually pretty important when reading players... when I first came here, I was like "Meta doesn't matter....", but that's not true as everyone plays different. Also, the wa a player plays & the way people respond to them tells a lot about their meta -- I haven't read a single game of another user, but I am able to discern the meta of a player fairly quickly. Some people would be harder to read meta-wise though.

4. Keyser does an ISO of BBT in 643 -

I've already expressed that I felt BBT's push/"case" against Keyser was rather weak, opportunistic, and scum-motivated. This ISO reinforces such a read and also identifies a ton of holes in BBT's Keyser'=Scum case.

5. Addressing some points in 646 -

1) Why is the thread review a problem - While I replaced in, and therefore, yesterday was my first opportunity to review the thread, BBT has been in the game since the start, yet by the sound of 1 of his posts, it seemed like he wasn't reading the thread at all. 2) I feel the tunnel by BBT is not only pathetic, but opportunistic and scum-motivated; BBT seems to be pushing a not-well supported, holey case on a slot that a lot of people express mild annoyance/scumreads of.

6. Keyser claims Thor is running people to L-1 without providing his own thoughts in 648. Thor responds with 649 with details on why some of the things Keyser said in 648 are untrue or inaccurate. -

I actually like both for town. Keyser provides a pretty good post explaining his read of Thor, and actually supports it fairly decent. (Actually, it wasn't just the L-1 shenanigans that led to a scumread of Thor -- Masq played a role as does the fact that Thor almost immediately suggests it after replacing in. Thor then points out an inaccuracy in Keyser's post which I like cuz again, he is supporting his claim. In this case, I don't think Keyser was intentionally trying to misrep Thor by stating he didn't provide any thought, I think it has to do with tunnelling & confirmaion bias between the two.

7. To Massive in 650 -

Didn't I explain why? I wanted to know your reads and thoughts which you had yet to share.

8. Pops says something about a scummy replace out in 651 -

I have no idea who you're referring to.

9. Thor states he only encourages deadline lynches as scum in 664. -

I don't have a scum meta yet, but I'm the exact opposite! I actively encourage deadline lynches that way we get as much out of our time as possible.

10.

Good, I'm not the only one who thinks 668 about Keyser. Prove the fundamental argument that Keyser is empty posting, and I will seriously consider joining the wagon. Til then, I think I'm sticking to a BBT wagon.

11. @681 -- I'm OceanWind's replacement. This isn't italics as it's 100% objective.

12. Massive says I'm not catching up in 699 -

Can you freaking read? Show me where I haven't caught up; 5 pages I haven't read cuz of RL that sprung up in the last 24 hrs is def. not alignment-indicative. Still, I think I'd be happy with a neutral to townlean read on you.

13. Keeping 716 in mind.

Ok, my inquiry on Massive is done. I'm getting town vibes there. I think I can upgrade TTH to a townlean and pops is still neutral/scum. I am reconsidering my stance on Thor as Thor vs. Keyser may be TvT (such fights have a habit of being that)

With that said, I still scumread BBT.
VOTE: BBT

Sheep me -- I'm actually providing reasons for my views

[GuyFawkes]

Spoiler: Mini 1769 - Day 1 Thoughts #2

1. Boon claims Massive always contributes...

10 or so contentless posts...

every game in 631.

The problem is not the lurking, it's the lack of anything substandial in his posts. I saw his scum play in that last game.... His posts actually did have some content to them, but I have to agree about the meta of barely posting.

2. In 632, Boon claims I may be town-tunneling Keyser -

That is definitely a possibility, but I really do feel pretty strong in my townread of Keyser. His wagon seems to be the results of poor reasoning, albeit that might be true of all the current wagons. I will try to keep that in mind.

3. Aqua wants to know why people townread Kein in post 642 -

I already told you why -- He soft-claimed early.

PS: I don't think this lynch will happen; sh!!!

Also, Kein is being Kein. I have learned that meta is actually pretty important when reading players... when I first came here, I was like "Meta doesn't matter....", but that's not true as everyone plays different. Also, the wa a player plays & the way people respond to them tells a lot about their meta -- I haven't read a single game of another user, but I am able to discern the meta of a player fairly quickly. Some people would be harder to read meta-wise though.

4. Keyser does an ISO of BBT in 643 -

I've already expressed that I felt BBT's push/"case" against Keyser was rather weak, opportunistic, and scum-motivated. This ISO reinforces such a read and also identifies a ton of holes in BBT's Keyser'=Scum case.

5. Addressing some points in 646 -

1) Why is the thread review a problem - While I replaced in, and therefore, yesterday was my first opportunity to review the thread, BBT has been in the game since the start, yet by the sound of 1 of his posts, it seemed like he wasn't reading the thread at all. 2) I feel the tunnel by BBT is not only pathetic, but opportunistic and scum-motivated; BBT seems to be pushing a not-well supported, holey case on a slot that a lot of people express mild annoyance/scumreads of.

6. Keyser claims Thor is running people to L-1 without providing his own thoughts in 648. Thor responds with 649 with details on why some of the things Keyser said in 648 are untrue or inaccurate. -

I actually like both for town. Keyser provides a pretty good post explaining his read of Thor, and actually supports it fairly decent. (Actually, it wasn't just the L-1 shenanigans that led to a scumread of Thor -- Masq played a role as does the fact that Thor almost immediately suggests it after replacing in. Thor then points out an inaccuracy in Keyser's post which I like cuz again, he is supporting his claim. In this case, I don't think Keyser was intentionally trying to misrep Thor by stating he didn't provide any thought, I think it has to do with tunnelling & confirmaion bias between the two.

7. To Massive in 650 -

Didn't I explain why? I wanted to know your reads and thoughts which you had yet to share.

8. Pops says something about a scummy replace out in 651 -

I have no idea who you're referring to.

9. Thor states he only encourages deadline lynches as scum in 664. -

I don't have a scum meta yet, but I'm the exact opposite! I actively encourage deadline lynches that way we get as much out of our time as possible.

10.

Good, I'm not the only one who thinks 668 about Keyser. Prove the fundamental argument that Keyser is empty posting, and I will seriously consider joining the wagon. Til then, I think I'm sticking to a BBT wagon.

11. @681 -- I'm OceanWind's replacement. This isn't italics as it's 100% objective.

12. Massive says I'm not catching up in 699 -

Can you freaking read? Show me where I haven't caught up; 5 pages I haven't read cuz of RL that sprung up in the last 24 hrs is def. not alignment-indicative. Still, I think I'd be happy with a neutral to townlean read on you.

13. Keeping 716 in mind.

Ok, my inquiry on Massive is done. I'm getting town vibes there. I think I can upgrade TTH to a townlean and pops is still neutral/scum. I am reconsidering my stance on Thor as Thor vs. Keyser may be TvT (such fights have a habit of being that)

With that said, I still scumread BBT.
VOTE: BBT

Sheep me -- I'm actually providing reasons for my views

meh, I don't think your case on BBT is worth sheeping

[Titus]

Keysor, I am feeling lazy.

Who is scum?

[GuyFawkes]

Keysor, I am feeling lazy.

Who is scum?

why ask keyser as opposed to anybody else?

[Ircher]

BBT is scum

[Ircher]

Cuz Titus obviously townreads Keyser

[GuyFawkes]

BBT is scum

can you summarize your oh so compelling case for me?

[Ircher]

Really, I've already explained it. ISO me and expand the spoilers if you cant tell.

[Ircher]

It's *at least* as good as the Keyser case.

[Titus]

Keysor, I am feeling lazy.

Who is scum?

why ask keyser as opposed to anybody else?

Ask the lead wagon what they want is a good idea to get into a game.

[Boonskiies]

I mean, if you look at some of my more recent posts regarding Kain, it's pretty obvious that I just find him a bumbling fool and I'll lynch. I won't push for the lynch, but yeah.

Also, you know I am Phoenix Wright's slot, right?

[Boonskiies]

Also, this is Town BBT....he's just not active. Like holy fuck.

[Boonskiies]

The second BBT pops up, it's going to be super obvious how town he is, yet you bumble bees will probably make up reasons to want to push him.

[Keyser Söze]

Also, this is Town BBT....he's just not active. Like holy fuck.

Tell me what 'Town BBT' is in words. This sounds like a meta defence.

[Keyser Söze]

Keysor, I am feeling lazy.

Who is scum?

BBT isn't a bad player so I do not understand his tunnel on me. Vote there.

GuyFawkes seems like he is active lurking. Show me him trying to sort players. Vote there.

If you town-read the vocal players, vote a lurker. Always scum in there watching town thrash out at eachother, then coming in late with an unexplained 'but player X is town!".

KainTepes has shown no concern for self-preservation and softed a PR early. Either challenge him now or never. He has been the hardest player to read so far.

But if you're interested in just forcing a roleclaim join my wagon, and keep Thor happy, because he's the smartest player here.

The choice is yours.


P.s catch up as soon as you can.

[Thor665]

Thor665, do you want my roleclaim or my lynch?

1. If I want your lynch, and not your claim, I am playing badly or am scum.
2. If I want your claim and assuredly don't want your lynch I am playing badly or am scum.
3. If I want your lynch, and want you at L-1 and to claim first - I am playing appropriate town.

I choose...oh...gosh...let me think...I'mma go with #3, was #3 the right answer?

All I'm seeing is

"this wagon has the biggest chance of hitting L-1, so join me guys, while the cookies are warm"

. Smurfing joke.

Add in "and here's why I find him an acceptable lynch compared to others" and you 100% are stating my issue with you, yes.

Just because a wagon is "currently pretty empty of support" doesn't make it wrong or a futile road to go down.

It does if you're sitting with your vote on it while not talking about it with other players or interrogating your suspect.

P.EDIT. I dropped your "empty" argument because it was utter bullSmurf. Non alignment indicative drivel, from a player who is so stubborn and up his own game theory he cant be reasoned with. You are terrible to play with. Learn to listen mate. We can go back to it, but it's a waste of my time and everyone elses. You do not realise we, as players need to talk through arguments to reach an agreement. You just saying *empty empty la la la la la not listening* is just team-killing us. It's Smurfing anti-town.

Read the thread. People are allowed to disagree with you. Deal with it.

What am I not listening to about it? You never tried to explain any part of it to me at all. You demanded to know what I meant. i showed you. You stopped talking.
You either presumed I wouldn't listen (and now are whining about it) - or are lying to me now.
Which was it?

because my argument was so brilliant

Short answer. NO. Show some humility.

You took that grossly out of context and then (faked?) offense at it.
Thor is the unfun player in this game?


Maybe that's why you think I'm so mean? Because you utterly miss my sense of humor?
Read stuff twice? If you already read it twice, go for thrice?
If you're just fake skimming and acting fake offended - then this is obnoxious scum play, but I'll lynch you regardless.

Keyser is one of my preferences so I am not going to disagree on the target and really I don't care on the reasoning as it is just you trying to become the leader. 'My Push' is simply 1. The highlighted post a while back 2. Phoenix did literally nothing 3. Boon has ignored me completely since entering the game which seems strange to me.

For #2 - do you think Pheonix as town always "does something" and, I would add, slots that replace out generally do nothing before they replace out - generally that's why they need replacement.
#3 - Is there meta attached to this, like, when scum he ignores you?

Not this again Thorsie Worsie

Wait, are we not going to cutsie nicknames? I got my signals crossed Slandaarific!

You can either wagon a bunch of people and decide who to lynch while also getting lots of claims or you can think about things and lynch the best target I prefer the latter.

I disagree that pressuring multiple targets with a vote automatically generates a weaker end vote.
Like, if you can investigate without a vote - why can you not investigate with one?
That makes no sense.

Like what?

You tell me.[/quote]
So...my suspicion holds true, I'm NOT missing anything of note, and this is just the usual empty "you should read all the past" sort of note people toss out.
I will read chunks in due time, as I have been doing - clearly I have missed nothing of import.
Let's move forward.

Thor, I just don't see it for now. Call it gut for some extent. Maybe another game day. Spin me a better tale somewhere else if you want my vote.

But, if you're open to moving, and your defense is gut, and you want to listen to my suggestions elsewhere...eh, whatever. Copy.

@Thor

: Do you have avatars turned on?

Yes.

[Aquanim]

...

@Thor

: Do you have avatars turned on?

Yes.

The reason I ask is because the conversation with TellTaleHeart you're talking about here...

...
Conversely - go and read [BlueBloodedToffee's] interplay from the page I noted him as a town read, he is talking to TTH. He makes multiple comments about multiple players and expresses many views that seem open minded and built to generate discussion. Not only is this the opposite of tunneling (and shows that his focus is healthy, and not blind in any way) it also looks immensely town.

was not a conversation with BlueBloodedToffee at all - it was with Boonskiies. BlueBloodedToffee has at no point expressed "multiple comments about multiple players". His entire catchup sequence is focused on Keyser (and totally ignored the Kain-shaped elephant in the room).

The few comments BBT has made about players who aren't Keyser don't convince me that he's thinking seriously about determining alignments either; there's a few things about Kain which are non-committal as to Kain's alignment, an unexplained scumread on Ocean, a townread on the Masquerade slot solely based on its replacing out, and an unexplained townread on me. That's it.

...
BBT is not tunneling.
...

The conversation I had with BlueBloodedToffee about Keyser starting here did not feel to me at all like BBT was seriously considering anything I said.

Spoiler:

...
I don't see Keyser being assertive at all and the fact he went back to a null read should tell you something. Effort is not indicative alignment, look at his content. It's poor.

In the post previous to this I gave examples of Keyser having an assertive tone. This felt to me like BBT was determined to talk about only his own definition of "assertive", rather than understand the point I was trying to make.

Firstly, you're assuming all scum think everything through that they do; this isn't the case.

This was a serious misrepresentation of my argument:

...
No, I'm not. I'm assuming Keyser Söze, as scum, thinks through the votes he chooses to make.

If Kain got lynched right now, who would you say is the primary pusher of the wagon? Who would shoulder the most responsibilty for the lynch? It certainly isn't Keyser but he has contributed a hell of a lot to lynch a person he doesn't have a read on.

Completely missing my point that Keyser's actions were guaranteed to get him a lot of scrutiny, even before a Kain lynch, and that that would be obvious to Keyser from the start.

tl;dr: BBT isn't even paying attention to any arguments that contradict his claimed point of view on Keyser.

This is also the exact opposite to how I think a townie should be thinking:

The only reason I am saying it is because if Kain is scum, he will be easy to catch.

I want to catch the people who are much more likely to slip through the net. Like Keyser.

Kain could well slip through the net through nobody wanting to engage with him - in fact, it's happened today. Somebody who spams the thread like Keyser is never going to get forgotten. I don't see why a town-BBT would think this.

Further, I townread Keyser and don't like the wagon on him.
- I think Keyser is genuine in his interest in what other people think and what their alignment is, and getting information into the thread in general (e.g. pushing mn at the start of the game to get things going, #224, #235, #543).
- Keyser has not been reticient about explaining his reads (even if I don't agree with the final analysis of some of them); most of his reads in the first week were not conclusive, but given how many lurkers and generally unsatisfactory there were in the first week, there weren't really all that many strong reads to be made. Keyser's made some long posts that didn't really go anywhere (e.g. this stuff on mn, his list of reasons to lynch Kain) but I've seen posts like that from him as town (e.g. this).
- I can't see any good reason why Keyser would flip as he did about Kain as scum. If Kain's his scumbuddy, Keyser's inviting a lot of pressure onto himself; if Kain is town, then what Keyser's done is far more conspicuous than simply riding an easy mislynch, or arguing against it in the first place.

It doesn't look like a Kain lynch is going to happen today, so:
UNVOTE: KainTepes
VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[Thor665]

@Aqua - Yeah, I did mix them up. (Edit - though in my defense, there is a nice conversation with him and TTH, so maybe my mistake was more justified than I first thought, hurm )

Looking at the iso though, I still don't think the tunneling issue really holds water, and I'm not sure I'm buying the intentional misunderstanding thing either - I live in a universe of people claiming I'm intentionally misunderstanding them though, so I will admit I tend to be pretty soft on that as a scumtell.

He is assuredly Keyser focused - but if that's a crime feels like you should also be calling me scum, yeah?

I also like the immediate defense of Masquerade for the replace out, very unopportunistic for a theory scum.

Thoughts?

[Aquanim]

Looking at the iso though, I still don't think the tunneling issue really holds water,

What is your definition of a tunnel? So far as I can see, BBT's never so much as considered lynching or pressuring anybody else today, from the very beginning of his catch-up.

and I'm not sure I'm buying the intentional misunderstanding thing either - I live in a universe of people claiming I'm intentionally misunderstanding them though, so I will admit I tend to be pretty soft on that as a scumtell.

I can understand why you would feel that way.

He is assuredly Keyser focused - but if that's a crime feels like you should also be calling me scum, yeah?

The difference is that I feel like you are interested in getting thoughts, or at least reactions, out of other people through pushing Keyser. I don't get that vibe from BBT's posts.

I also like the immediate defense of Masquerade for the replace out, very unopportunistic for a theory scum.

Meh. I don't townread the Masquerade slot, either, and it's gotten BBT out of saying anything more about the slot.

[Keyser Söze]

1. If I want your lynch, and not your claim, I am playing badly or am scum.
2. If I want your claim and assuredly don't want your lynch I am playing badly or am scum.
3. If I want your lynch, and want you at L-1 and to claim first - I am playing appropriate town.
I choose...oh...gosh...let me think...I'mma go with #3, was #3 the right answer?
Add in "and here's why I find him an acceptable lynch compared to others" and you 100% are stating my issue with you, yes.
It does if you're sitting with your vote on it while not talking about it with other players or interrogating your suspect.
What am I not listening to about it? You never tried to explain any part of it to me at all. You demanded to know what I meant. i showed you. You stopped talking.
You either presumed I wouldn't listen (and now are whining about it) - or are lying to me now.
Which was it?
You took that grossly out of context and then (faked?) offense at it.
Thor is the unfun player in this game?

Maybe that's why you think I'm so mean? Because you utterly miss my sense of humor?
Read stuff twice? If you already read it twice, go for thrice?
If you're just fake skimming and acting fake offended - then this is obnoxious scum play, but I'll lynch you regardless.

I do not wish to argue over words.

Spoiler: Advice for Thor

Try listening to the actual message of what people are trying to say, instead of twisting everything they post to make your personal opinion sound infallible. Well guess what, you're just as clueless as all of us. You are not the God of Mafia.

popsofctown doesn't want to join in with your force to L-1 for non-alignment indicative reasons crusade. Deal with it.
Slandaar doesn't want to force multiple roleclaims. Deal with it.
I find your conduct and attitude grossly anti-town. Deal with it.
TellTaleHeart thinks you may be a butthole. Deal with it.

I "stopped talking" with you because I soon realised you are not a player who can talk through things with an open mind.

Not

because you had a "brilliant case" or I was in marvel of your most beloved intelligent "sense of humor". Get a grip mate.

"obnoxious scum play"

- what a vile insult. No, it's a townie telling you to look in the mirror. Seriously. You must not lynch me because you need me in this game to keep you level-headed

If you're going to wallpost,

show me scum-alignment indicative evidence and then people/I can discuss

.



P.EDIT

He is assuredly Keyser focused - but if that's a crime feels like you should also be calling me scum, yeah?

Your interactions with me are of a different nature. I.e I am not scum-reading everyone of my wagon. Boonskiies will never explain his reads fully, and lol-hammer if given the chance. Scum would sheep something with a bit more meat. GuyFawkes I do not like. Your motives are twisted as fuck but I see no scum-motivation there in the short or long term. BBT is all about the narrrow focus miss-lynch though.

I also like the immediate defense of Masquerade for the replace out, very unopportunistic for a theory scum.

Thoughts?

Why not scum-defending-scum, or scum-defending-town for no-good-reason? i.e scum calling something non-alignment indicative as town-indicative. I.e a replace out.

How many replace outs have we had? Which ones are town or scum? Fuck knows. Be my guest in calling one a town-replace-out or a scum replace-out.