Open 627: Mexican Standoff [endgame]

[pisskop]

Votecount 2.06

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Burning Crystal

- (4) Aneninen, Mad King Ashnard, chilledtea, kop

kaintepes

- (2) xtoxm, Almost50

Aneninen

- (2) acryon, Burning Crystal

Almost50

- (1) Ranger

xtoxm

- (1) kaintepes

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Not Voting

- davesaz

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With 11 Alive it takes 6 to Lynch!
Day 02 Deadline is (expired on 2016-03-21 11:30:00).

[KainTepes]

I AM NOT A TROLL.............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mad King Ashnard]

Still letting Raskol take the reins here.

[Aneninen]

Why can't you do VCA on a town flip? I know a scum flip does show who could have possibly bussed, but surely you could get some information from a town flip?

parrot.

[Aneninen]

Dave claimed? I thought he hinted or dropped some sort of crumb? So why would you put him in the obvtown bracket based on a crumb, hint?

I think he only hinted

[tn5421]

Oh I meant make a case on Burning Crystal. I read that post and I agreed with it initially but I have a gut feeling that acryon maybe town.

My case about BurningCrystal has too been posted before. See eg. 1068, 1070, 1096, 1106.
Some highlighting:
– They jumped on me for a silly reason (which is not essentially scummy), but at a point when they hoped I'd be quickwagoned (this is much more scummy)
– They scumslipped in 1067 and their reaction in 1069 confirmed that.
– Most of their discussion with me was about to discredit me, which is a scum strategy I've seen plenty of times before.
– Also, they were a possible lynch on Day1. We ended up lynching TexCat, and I find it very strange that noone focuses on the other major wagons of Yesterday.

Exactly what it sounds like? What's not to get? I'm a frequent nightkill. Scum usually fear me. Sometimes, it is based off of past game experience, if the scum have played with me before and fear my talents from that game. Other times, it's because I've earned the respect of the scum in the current game in spite of no prior record. In either case, I still die early and often.

The more times you post how town you are the more FoS you get from me.

Titus lurked out most of D1 which is a towntell for her, she has no reason to buddy me in the way she has given my history of not working with her, and my general level of mislynchability I think she would want me as a lynch option were she scum and she's effectively ruled out that option or at least made it difficult for her to change that stance. Also when asked to claim at L-1 on D1 she pretty much VT softed (by not claiming), which again is a good indication of town.

Lurking is null at best. It can happen because of RL reasons and/or it can be faked easily. Softing VT is not an alignment tell either. (Actually, that may make sense as scum so as to avoid a stray SK/other team Nightkill if we have any of those factions. Scums, if I understand the Setup well, are aware of that piece of info, on the other hand.)

"It sounds as if you know I'll flip town" isn't a case
"And I can see a clear scum motivation for removing me. I'm a slow player; the more time I spend in the game the surer my reads are.
" How about you stop with the self-congratulatory garbage and focus on the game, instead of making the "I'm on mobile" excuse even thinner than it already is?
"Now I'm sure that you've scumslipped!" This is a red herring, as you never explained to anyone's satisfaction why/how we 'scumslipped'. "you 'know' i'll flip town" doesn't count, as an unsubstantiated statement.
"Firstly, I don't think they'd have pointed it out that they'd VCA my wagon later if they scumread me for real." I don't think you understand Titus anywhere near as much as you think you do.
"Secondly, their reaction. Check out their 1069 once more. They did NOT care about my post (actually nor my content at all) – that post had one single goal: discrediting me. " Your reply is so utterly lacking in anything resembling substance that most players will simply categorize it as either you flailing or you omgusing. You'll have to do better than that.
"More discrediting. I'm not surprised." As I'm showing in this very post, it's not as if your content is worth the space it's written on.
"Also, calling everyone voting for you terrible is another scumtell. Firstly, I don't think my posts are the only reasons for voting for you. Secondly, you're totally ignoring the fact that you were wagoned Yesterday. " Mutually exclusive statements. How can I call the votes on me crap if I was unaware there were votes on me? This is the kind of faulty logic that has been going into your posts.
"Good. You started insulting me. It works on many players, I know, but no, you won't make me upset. You're attacking the player instead of the posts, which is scummy." I was expressing my displeasure at the gamestate and with you. I insult people all the time. You're going to have to get over it.
"You're acting as if the votes for you had been RVS-es. Palpable misrepresentation of the events." When over half the votes on me are naked, I will treat them as RVS votes. You're the one misrepresenting here.
"And one more thing. Repeating the vote. It makes my wagon look bigger than it really is. I know that trick." That was actually a mistake on my part, I didn't realize Titus had already moved our vote onto you.
"More discrediting. More insults. As if I hadn't posted anything relevant. " See this post. Anything relevent that you posted isn't exactly useful.
"For example these two sentences of you. Instead of showing that you're actually interested in my posts you threw out a question and added a discrediting sentence instantly." Maybe if you'd stop acting like your shit is gold, I wouldn't have to call you on it.
"There were plenty of things posted about you Yesterday. Yet again, you're ignoring the fact that I actually do have a case against you. You're acting all the time as if I were a player shouldn't be listened to. That's called discrediting. " What case? All I see are a bunch of unconnected, unsubstantiated suspicions about my slot in general. It isn't even worthy of being called a case.
"I don't believe you at all. Neither of you seem to be the kind of players being unable to talk to each other about your thoughts." You do realize that work tends to get in the way of proper communication, right? I'm back to 40+ hours a week with my job and I'm pretty sure Titus' caseload hasn't fallen.
"As for my vote for Acryon. I had explained my scumread on him clearly on Day1 and you act as if I had never done so." Please link to this, if it's more than just 946
"Apart from throwing shyt at me what else have exactly you done Today?" I've attempted to get my scumread lynched, what have you done?
"Also, Titus is said to be the VCA-master (actually she is) and she hasn't done anything with any of the Day1 VCs." Just because she hasn't publicly posted a bunch of stuff on VCA day 2 doesn't mean a damn thing. Titus is the kind of player that gets stronger as the game goes on. Don't expect explcit VCA until AT LEAST day 3. But you knew that already, didn't you?

My partner said it best: "You're not even stating what the scumslip is but just repeating that over and over. That is a discrediting strategy."

In conclusion: Stop wasting my time.

I am sorry but I just did such a quick 180 on my reads regarding BC.

I am now so close to thinking she is scum. Like 90% sure.

Would you mind guiding me through your thought process here?

Now, if you're going to lynch me for being the only fucker in here who reads an open setup wiki, do it already.

I'm getting flashbacks of Open 559, jesus. Except it's worse this time.

Because I was from mobile, as I said.
But then, someone STATED that it's not an excuse, oh wait, wasn't it YOU?
Yeah, sure, everyone seems to know better what I'm actually doing IRL, whether I have 2 spare minutes for a thought I don't want to forget while I'm working and focusing my mind on something entirely different or I'm scum and posting a silly question and faking all the time.

It's called notepad, try it out sometime. Still not an excuse.

@1197: Have you ever played with Titus before? She never does VCA before day 3 beyond impressions.

~tn5421

[Burning Crystal]

Oh I meant make a case on Burning Crystal. I read that post and I agreed with it initially but I have a gut feeling that acryon maybe town.

My case about BurningCrystal has too been posted before. See eg. 1068, 1070, 1096, 1106.
Some highlighting:
– They jumped on me for a silly reason (which is not essentially scummy), but at a point when they hoped I'd be quickwagoned (this is much more scummy)
– They scumslipped in 1067 and their reaction in 1069 confirmed that.
– Most of their discussion with me was about to discredit me, which is a scum strategy I've seen plenty of times before.
– Also, they were a possible lynch on Day1. We ended up lynching TexCat, and I find it very strange that noone focuses on the other major wagons of Yesterday.

Exactly what it sounds like? What's not to get? I'm a frequent nightkill. Scum usually fear me. Sometimes, it is based off of past game experience, if the scum have played with me before and fear my talents from that game. Other times, it's because I've earned the respect of the scum in the current game in spite of no prior record. In either case, I still die early and often.

The more times you post how town you are the more FoS you get from me.

Titus lurked out most of D1 which is a towntell for her, she has no reason to buddy me in the way she has given my history of not working with her, and my general level of mislynchability I think she would want me as a lynch option were she scum and she's effectively ruled out that option or at least made it difficult for her to change that stance. Also when asked to claim at L-1 on D1 she pretty much VT softed (by not claiming), which again is a good indication of town.

Lurking is null at best. It can happen because of RL reasons and/or it can be faked easily. Softing VT is not an alignment tell either. (Actually, that may make sense as scum so as to avoid a stray SK/other team Nightkill if we have any of those factions. Scums, if I understand the Setup well, are aware of that piece of info, on the other hand.)

"It sounds as if you know I'll flip town" isn't a case
"And I can see a clear scum motivation for removing me. I'm a slow player; the more time I spend in the game the surer my reads are.
" How about you stop with the self-congratulatory garbage and focus on the game, instead of making the "I'm on mobile" excuse even thinner than it already is?
"Now I'm sure that you've scumslipped!" This is a red herring, as you never explained to anyone's satisfaction why/how we 'scumslipped'. "you 'know' i'll flip town" doesn't count, as an unsubstantiated statement.
"Firstly, I don't think they'd have pointed it out that they'd VCA my wagon later if they scumread me for real." I don't think you understand Titus anywhere near as much as you think you do.
"Secondly, their reaction. Check out their 1069 once more. They did NOT care about my post (actually nor my content at all) – that post had one single goal: discrediting me. " Your reply is so utterly lacking in anything resembling substance that most players will simply categorize it as either you flailing or you omgusing. You'll have to do better than that.
"More discrediting. I'm not surprised." As I'm showing in this very post, it's not as if your content is worth the space it's written on.
"Also, calling everyone voting for you terrible is another scumtell. Firstly, I don't think my posts are the only reasons for voting for you. Secondly, you're totally ignoring the fact that you were wagoned Yesterday. " Mutually exclusive statements. How can I call the votes on me crap if I was unaware there were votes on me? This is the kind of faulty logic that has been going into your posts.
"Good. You started insulting me. It works on many players, I know, but no, you won't make me upset. You're attacking the player instead of the posts, which is scummy." I was expressing my displeasure at the gamestate and with you. I insult people all the time. You're going to have to get over it.
"You're acting as if the votes for you had been RVS-es. Palpable misrepresentation of the events." When over half the votes on me are naked, I will treat them as RVS votes. You're the one misrepresenting here.
"And one more thing. Repeating the vote. It makes my wagon look bigger than it really is. I know that trick." That was actually a mistake on my part, I didn't realize Titus had already moved our vote onto you.
"More discrediting. More insults. As if I hadn't posted anything relevant. " See this post. Anything relevent that you posted isn't exactly useful.
"For example these two sentences of you. Instead of showing that you're actually interested in my posts you threw out a question and added a discrediting sentence instantly." Maybe if you'd stop acting like your shit is gold, I wouldn't have to call you on it.
"There were plenty of things posted about you Yesterday. Yet again, you're ignoring the fact that I actually do have a case against you. You're acting all the time as if I were a player shouldn't be listened to. That's called discrediting. " What case? All I see are a bunch of unconnected, unsubstantiated suspicions about my slot in general. It isn't even worthy of being called a case.
"I don't believe you at all. Neither of you seem to be the kind of players being unable to talk to each other about your thoughts." You do realize that work tends to get in the way of proper communication, right? I'm back to 40+ hours a week with my job and I'm pretty sure Titus' caseload hasn't fallen.
"As for my vote for Acryon. I had explained my scumread on him clearly on Day1 and you act as if I had never done so." Please link to this, if it's more than just 946
"Apart from throwing shyt at me what else have exactly you done Today?" I've attempted to get my scumread lynched, what have you done?
"Also, Titus is said to be the VCA-master (actually she is) and she hasn't done anything with any of the Day1 VCs." Just because she hasn't publicly posted a bunch of stuff on VCA day 2 doesn't mean a damn thing. Titus is the kind of player that gets stronger as the game goes on. Don't expect explcit VCA until AT LEAST day 3. But you knew that already, didn't you?

My partner said it best: "You're not even stating what the scumslip is but just repeating that over and over. That is a discrediting strategy."

In conclusion: Stop wasting my time.

I am sorry but I just did such a quick 180 on my reads regarding BC.

I am now so close to thinking she is scum. Like 90% sure.

Would you mind guiding me through your thought process here?

Now, if you're going to lynch me for being the only fucker in here who reads an open setup wiki, do it already.

I'm getting flashbacks of Open 559, jesus. Except it's worse this time.

Because I was from mobile, as I said.
But then, someone STATED that it's not an excuse, oh wait, wasn't it YOU?
Yeah, sure, everyone seems to know better what I'm actually doing IRL, whether I have 2 spare minutes for a thought I don't want to forget while I'm working and focusing my mind on something entirely different or I'm scum and posting a silly question and faking all the time.

It's called notepad, try it out sometime. Still not an excuse.

@1197: Have you ever played with Titus before? She never does VCA before day 3 beyond impressions.

~tn5421

Sorry for the slip.
~tn5421

[Burning Crystal]

Titus head VLA tomorrow.

All complaints can be forwarded to my 30th birthday division, where they will be ignored.

~Titus

[chilledtea]

I am sorry but I just did such a quick 180 on my reads regarding BC.

I am now so close to thinking she is scum. Like 90% sure.

Would you mind guiding me through your thought process here?

Why do you care about the setup so much? Your close mindedness regarding the setup makes me believe you have more information than me. I don't think you are vanilla town and I don't think you are town.

Such strange theories regarding Kuroi and frankly some of them just very strange. Like unless you were blocked you couldn't really have realistically known that Kuroi targeted you; but you are VT right?

And then the strange insistence that there are 2 scum teams out of which one consists of Anen and MKA. I don't even see how anyone can come to this weird conclusion and frankly I would be even more confident that you are scum if you were right in your theory.

[acryon]

@Xtoxm - Why did you think outing you suspected I was a VT was a good idea? I was hoping to have scum think I was the tracker/cop and draw more bullets not less. There's a missing kill. I was the logical jail choice (given the jailors scumreads). For any scumteam to miss a kill, they'd have to be dumb or desperate. Dumb leaves KT or Aninen (thought he could fake a case on me) or KT. Desperate leaves Aninen or MKA or a partner of theirs.

~Titus

This reads very contrived. Thankfully we still have 7 days to work things out.

[Almost50]

Thankfully we still have 7 days to work things out.

You think?? Cuz all I see is we're moving in circles and nothing is new. I'll probably do a reread of the whole thread l○7ter today with a totally new perspective in mind (I'm going to try something I've never done before) to see if I could come up with something different myself.

[acryon]

FoS

davesaz.

I'm here, but it's a heavy workday and also my daughter's birthday.
Gonna need some old-fashioned scumhunting here. That will take time that I don't have right now, will have to be later in the evening.

Furthermore it's a heavy work week, I'm hosting some big meetings.

LA Wed-Fri

Fine, but then Wed-Fri came and went and we got this:

Well, it was fairly easy to keep up with reading, but not so easy to keep up with analysis.
I think I'll have to re-read the whole day, and look at yesterday's wagons too.

Great, that will be awesome. And then all we get is:

Missing kill?

Where's the content dave? You've said nothing this entire day phase.

[davesaz]

If there are two scum teams I would not be at all surprised if Aneninen and BC are both scum on opposing teams.
Trying to figure out who the partners would be in that scenario.

[acryon]

If there are two scum teams I would not be at all surprised if Aneninen and BC are both scum on opposing teams.
Trying to figure out who the partners would be in that scenario.

Do you think the missing kill comment was a scumslip?

[Ranger]

Right, so power was out yesterday, thus why I didn't catch up, but I'm here now.

[Ranger]

The more times you post how town you are the more FoS you get from me.

That was not posting about how town I am. That was stating facts. It is objectively true that I get nightkilled often. It is objectively true that scum usually are afraid of me. A statement of how town I am would be, "I mean, I am town, but...". Which

this

post is doing, yes. But that post was not.

What are your reasons for thinking that Ranger could possibly be scum?

What are your reasons for thinking I wouldn't be? Especially given,

And if you don't die, that means your not town, right?

Can't get a read properly - Mad King Ashnard, Ranger

These. (And to answer: no, it simply means scum did not view me as the largest threat. While I do get nightkilled a disproportionately high number of games, it is not necessarily immediately on N1, and depending on game length, may never happen. I'm

always

town.)

[Ranger]

BC might indeed be scum, but both Kop and acryon are looking far worse with their posting.
Almost50 continues to not look town, either.

[Kop]

What are your reasons for thinking that Ranger could possibly be scum?

What are your reasons for thinking I wouldn't be? Especially given,

And if you don't die, that means your not town, right?

Can't get a read properly - Mad King Ashnard, Ranger

These. (And to answer: no, it simply means scum did not view me as the largest threat. While I do get nightkilled a disproportionately high number of games, it is not necessarily immediately on N1, and depending on game length, may never happen. I'm

always

town.)

Have I accused you of possibly being scum?

The

if you don't die

, is an assumption, not an accusation. You've harped on enough about being night killed early, probably on more than one occasion within this game, I put that in there, to see what response you would have given. I'm always town, is just words to me in a thread. You can protest that into 100 games, I guarantee, you'll be scum in one of them and you'll say the same thing.

[Ranger]

Have I accused you of possibly being scum?

Kind-of, sort-of, yes.

Thus, why your comment defending me sticks out like a sore thumb.

[Kop]

VOTE: Ranger

I'm actually warming to this idea.

Please talk to me about how you think Acryon is looking worse with his posting, than Burning Crystal, and what you said the other real life day.

[Ranger]

Please talk to me about how you think Acryon is looking worse with his posting

The waffle in 1209. The focus on dave in 1211. Stuff like that.

[Kop]

So are you veering away from Acyron could be town stance now?

[acryon]

Please talk to me about how you think Acryon is looking worse with his posting

The waffle in 1209. The focus on dave in 1211. Stuff like that.

How is pointing out a bad part of a post a waffle? If it's waffling to feel someone is likely town and then question a sketchy post, then I'm all for it I guess. No one should be putting people above suspicion.

And do you not see a problem with what dave did? He literally hadn't posted a single piece of content this entire day phase. If he's scum, then let's turn up the heat. If he's town, then wake up.

[davesaz]

If there are two scum teams I would not be at all surprised if Aneninen and BC are both scum on opposing teams.
Trying to figure out who the partners would be in that scenario.

Do you think the missing kill comment was a scumslip?

I see BC setting up a narrative of them being JK'd by a suspicious Kuroi as the explanation of a missing kill. But I question why that would be mentioned by town, since there is no evidence of a 2nd kill. Even in a MB scenario, from a town perspective all it would do is tell scum why their kill failed. On the other hand, if there are 2 scum teams it's a high probability that both teams have a RB (WW roles mimic Mafia roles in the setup and mafia get a RB in one of the weak BG setups). In that environment, the narrative makes a dandy reaction test to find the other team's RB.

[acryon]

If there are two scum teams I would not be at all surprised if Aneninen and BC are both scum on opposing teams.
Trying to figure out who the partners would be in that scenario.

Do you think the missing kill comment was a scumslip?

I see BC setting up a narrative of them being JK'd by a suspicious Kuroi as the explanation of a missing kill. But I question why that would be mentioned by town, since there is no evidence of a 2nd kill. Even in a MB scenario, from a town perspective all it would do is tell scum why their kill failed. On the other hand, if there are 2 scum teams it's a high probability that both teams have a RB (WW roles mimic Mafia roles in the setup and mafia get a RB in one of the weak BG setups). In that environment, the narrative makes a dandy reaction test to find the other team's RB.

But doesn't it also raise some red flags (as it did here) being the first person to bring up the possibility of a missing kill? I'm certainly not saying this means they wouldn't bring it up, but I guess you think they thought it was worth the risk? But again, why bring up an answer to a question no one was asking?