Mini 1786: Inspirational Mafia (Game Over)


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Post Post #125 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:28 am

Post by Something_Smart »

I regret nothing in my life. Even if my past was full of hurt, I still look back and smile, because it made me who I am today.

VC 1.4
Katsuki (6)- Untrod Tripod, xyzzy, Thestatusquo, implosion, BlueBloodedToffee, MagnaofIllusion
(L-1)

drmyshottyizsik (2)- kagesong, Kmd4390
Untrod Tripod (1)- SnarkySnowman
kagesong (1)- Lowell
xyzzy (1)- Creature
Lowell (1)- drmyshottyizsik
Thestatusquo (1)- Katsuki

Not voting (0)- NOBODY

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

(expired on 2016-04-29 12:00:00)

Mod notes: MagnaofIllusion is V/LA until Monday.[/area]
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Post Post #126 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:52 am

Post by kagesong »

In post 123, Katsuki wrote:
In post 119, kagesong wrote:I am very tempted to hammer myself if Katsuki does not produce some notable reason not to. Every thing so far at the very least screams NOT TOWN.


What have I done specifically in your mind that screams "NOT TOWN"?

Umm, have you been reading? Do I have to repeat everything that everyone has said?
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Post Post #127 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:26 am

Post by Kmd4390 »

V/LA for the weekend
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Post Post #128 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:35 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

In post 126, kagesong wrote:
Umm, have you been reading? Do I have to repeat everything that everyone has said?

Yeah, you do.

Why do you think Katsuki is scum?
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
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Post Post #129 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:16 am

Post by Something_Smart »

In post 127, Kmd4390 wrote:
V/LA for the weekend

Noted.
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Post Post #130 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:23 am

Post by xyzzy »

In post 97, Katsuki wrote:
In post 93, Thestatusquo wrote:
In post 86, xyzzy wrote:is that a serious claim? if so, why come out with it unprompted this rapidly? I really don't like it either way and you're being really evasive, so

VOTE: Katsuki

Don't like this post, but I'll really know how I feel about it once either xyzzy or katsuki flips. Noting so I don't miss it when I reread later. Also worth noting that xyzzy is the third vote on the wagon (considering he knew I was going to be voting katsuki since I'm proxied to UT.)


>talks about issues with my accountability
>takes 0 accountability for own vote on wagon and shifts responsibility to someone else

hue

Third vote on wagon you guys don't even need to read further, Shea is obvscum.

#Jeeptells

Shea pretty explicitly made it clear that he intended to vote for you--his assertion that I was effectively the third person on your wagon was completely right, and I voted for you assuming that he would do the same.

the accountability issue has more to do with the fact that you've avoided answering important questions about your actions; Shea has been pretty clear about why he's doing the things he's doing.
In post 106, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Because I rely on people being able to count.

that's not really an answer to the question; expecting people to know that someone is at L-2 at this point isn't unreasonable, but the issue is that you didn't really talk about why you did that, and just voting someone to L-2 should clearly be for a reason that you yourself can explain. you didn't say anything about Katsuki in your post--you responded to a couple of other posts and then cast a seemingly unrelated vote.
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Post Post #131 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:37 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

I didn't like Katsuki's questioning of the newbie.
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Post Post #132 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:08 am

Post by Lowell »

Mostly out this weekend. stong townread on BBT and magna. I like the kat case but I'll give it until I can read in full before I LOLhammer. tsq is a little jumpy for my liking, and it looks like he enjoys picking on newbs. which is hilarious, but kinda meh.
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Post Post #133 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:00 am

Post by drmyshottyizsik »

In post 116, Katsuki wrote:wtf are you even talking about bussing UT anyways.

I was gonna say things have changed with your #113, but #114 is the same VI shotty of 2010. Pity.

Wow so ad hom is your plan. This is even worse. A claim may have been a bit rash to ask for, it is still early but you are suspect #1 with tsq at #2 and ut in third.
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Post Post #134 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:10 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

In post 107, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Why are you worried about a scum read being placed at L-2?



I'm worried about you placing someone at l2 without any demonstration of why you are voting for them.
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Post Post #135 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:13 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

In post 128, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
In post 126, kagesong wrote:
Umm, have you been reading? Do I have to repeat everything that everyone has said?

Yeah, you do.

Why do you think Katsuki is scum?

I would like you to answer the same damn question.
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Post Post #136 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:14 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

In post 132, Lowell wrote:Mostly out this weekend. stong townread on BBT and magna. I like the kat case but I'll give it until I can read in full before I LOLhammer. tsq is a little jumpy for my liking, and it looks like he enjoys picking on newbs. which is hilarious, but kinda meh.



What? What have I done that was picking on noobs? My play was the opposite, I attacked katsuki for what looked to me to be setting up an attack on a new player...
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Post Post #137 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:17 am

Post by implosion »

When I voted for Katsuki it was because I agreed with his point that Katsuki had been tonally inconsistent in a scummy way. And at this point Katsuki continues to be intentionally opaque in a situation in which it is ostensibly explicitly anti-town to do so (two people had expressed interest in hammering as of Katsuki's last post, and now a third has with lowell, with Katsuki still refusing to claim). Shotty is right that is entirely ad hom, especially given that even if Katsuki is town, Shotty could be scum, and even if they're both town it's hardly VI play to suspect someone that at least three other townies are suspicious of.

Shea's play looks very straightforwardly town to me so far (especially if Katsuki is in fact scum). I am also skeptical of Katsuki's strong early townread on UT; the only thing in his ISO that I can possibly see that could lead to that was the persistence in asking why MoI was scum, but that does not seem worthy of a townread as strong as that stated in .

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Post Post #138 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:18 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

In post 133, drmyshottyizsik wrote:
In post 116, Katsuki wrote:wtf are you even talking about bussing UT anyways.

I was gonna say things have changed with your #113, but #114 is the same VI shotty of 2010. Pity.

Wow so ad hom is your plan. This is even worse. A claim may have been a bit rash to ask for, it is still early but you are suspect #1 with tsq at #2 and ut in third.


So let me get this straight. Your scum list assumes that as scum I attacked my scum buddy out of the blue, made him the number one target of the town when previously there was no pressure on him, laid a trap for him, sprung that trap, confirm voted him, and pushed him to l-1 and now (as of this post) am happily advocating his lynch if hes not going to claim?


Cool.
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Post Post #139 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:19 am

Post by implosion »

In post 104, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
In post 35, implosion wrote:
Walk me through your logic here.

Why so serious?

Why not?

In post 46, implosion wrote:VOTE: SnarkySnowman

Also, if you had a problem with Creature, why did you not vote him and instead continue by RVS'ing SS?

I didn't have a problem with Creature. I was curious and wanted to see why he had made seemingly a second RVS vote, but the existence of a second RVS vote isn't a scumtell.
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Post Post #140 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:20 am

Post by implosion »

Shea, have you been known to powerbus as scum (regardless of whether or not it's reasonable to think that your play here could be)?
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Post Post #141 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:21 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

Also, MoI. No, I don't think I've ever proxied my vote before as either town or scum on forums.
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Post Post #142 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:23 am

Post by drmyshottyizsik »

In post 126, kagesong wrote:
In post 123, Katsuki wrote:
In post 119, kagesong wrote:I am very tempted to hammer myself if Katsuki does not produce some notable reason not to. Every thing so far at the very least screams NOT TOWN.


What have I done specifically in your mind that screams "NOT TOWN"?

Umm, have you been reading? Do I have to repeat everything that everyone has said?

Implosion the other thing is I truly think that the fake claim was an attempt to earn instant town cred by bussing. I don't have as strong of a read on UT as kat but if kat flips scum the interaction between kat and UT is scummy all the way around. He fake guilties him and then back peddles and says that he can read UT and he knows he is town. This is scum in a bun in the sun, ready for baking

P edit
@Tsq
No, you and kat are not scum together. But one of you is. I think it is kat but you are at #2
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Post Post #143 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:31 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

In post 140, implosion wrote:Shea, have you been known to powerbus as scum (regardless of whether or not it's reasonable to think that your play here could be)?


I have certainly been known to bus, but I can't remember a scum game where I bused my partner so early and so aggressively. That doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't happened, but I can't remember one. I've played a lot of mafia and most of it was over 4 years ago.

I have one game that might be considered power busing, actually now that I think about it. Hold on let me dig it up to see if the play pattern looks like this. (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct%5B%5D=0)

(as an aside, I think meta is going to be pretty useless for reading me, since most meta on me is like 4 years old and I doubt I'm the same person and I like to think I'm a significantly better mafia player now.)
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Post Post #144 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:35 am

Post by kagesong »

Kat = scum = inconsistent = fake claim = no logic = just obviously scum. I don't understand why I should retell everything that's been said, as it would be verbatim what others explained. Maybe I'm a bit lazy, but I've got bad arthritis and don't feel like going through the physical pain of typing several paragraphs, when my logic is based on the evidence already presented. Yeah, that looks bad for me if we're wrong. But, remember, if we're wrong, WE are wrong, no just ME. I just want to wait, because we're barely into D1. I'd like to see more content.
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Post Post #145 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:54 am

Post by Katsuki »

How have I been inconsistant? Where have I fakeclaimed? How does "no logic" make me scum?
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Post Post #146 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:57 am

Post by Katsuki »

In post 136, Thestatusquo wrote:
What? What have I done that was picking on noobs? My play was the opposite, I attacked katsuki for what looked to me to be setting up an attack on a new player...


Aside from picking on me, a noob...

Is this what it was about? Why did you feel the need to be intentionally obtuse about the whole thing if you're voting me for that simple reason? I was not attacking the new player, merely trying to gather some info on how they think while it was still early in the game.

That would also partially explain you're utterly ludicrous attack on me, but it does not change the fact that you intentionally took everything in your grasp to twist in as scummy a way as you could, misrepresenting the majority, if not all the things I've said thus far.
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Post Post #147 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:00 pm

Post by Katsuki »

In post 130, xyzzy wrote:
the accountability issue has more to do with the fact that you've avoided answering important questions about your actions; Shea has been pretty clear about why he's doing the things he's doing.


Granted, I intentionally avoided answering TSQ + UT's questions because it would have rendered my entire exercise useless, but Shea has been anything but clear about why he's doing the things he's doing. I can't follow his train of thought at all. If anything, it is by far more in line with the last game I played with Shea, where we were scumbuddies.
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Post Post #148 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:05 pm

Post by Katsuki »

In post 137, implosion wrote:When I voted for Katsuki it was because I agreed with his point that Katsuki had been tonally inconsistent in a scummy way. And at this point Katsuki continues to be intentionally opaque in a situation in which it is ostensibly explicitly anti-town to do so (two people had expressed interest in hammering as of Katsuki's last post, and now a third has with lowell, with Katsuki still refusing to claim). Shotty is right that is entirely ad hom, especially given that even if Katsuki is town, Shotty could be scum, and even if they're both town it's hardly VI play to suspect someone that at least three other townies are suspicious of.

Shea's play looks very straightforwardly town to me so far (especially if Katsuki is in fact scum). I am also skeptical of Katsuki's strong early townread on UT; the only thing in his ISO that I can possibly see that could lead to that was the persistence in asking why MoI was scum, but that does not seem worthy of a townread as strong as that stated in .

I
would
appreciate if no hammer happens until the one player who has yet to give a stance (Snarky) can comment on the wagon before we see a flip. But not enough to unvote. The one thing that kind of gives me pause is that 3/4 of the players other than Katsuki (everyone but creature, kmd, snarky) have expressed strong suspicions, which would make the odds of someone early powerbussing pretty high. But that's not too surprising with this playerlist, especially given that I can see either kmd or snarky as scum (I think creature is town).


You've played with me before enough to know I can read some players from a couple of posts. I'm confident that UT is town.

Now aside from that fact, how exactly have I been "tonally inconsistant" in a scummy way? As for not claiming, no shit, the day I claim when I have a bullshit wagon on me is the day I become a MOI clone.

It is times like these that I miss having my Don Corleone. This replacement banner's just not as nice.
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Post Post #149 (ISO) » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:15 pm

Post by Thestatusquo »

In post 146, Katsuki wrote:
In post 136, Thestatusquo wrote:
What? What have I done that was picking on noobs? My play was the opposite, I attacked katsuki for what looked to me to be setting up an attack on a new player...


Aside from picking on me, a noob...

Is this what it was about? Why did you feel the need to be intentionally obtuse about the whole thing if you're voting me for that simple reason? I was not attacking the new player, merely trying to gather some info on how they think while it was still early in the game.

That would also partially explain you're utterly ludicrous attack on me, but it does not change the fact that you intentionally took everything in your grasp to twist in as scummy a way as you could, misrepresenting the majority, if not all the things I've said thus far.


I'm voting you for (now) 5 reasons.

1) I felt that your question to kage was setting up an attack on a newer player. I really didn't like the line of questioning on that slot in particular which is why I then attacked you for asking it. Your response to me didn't help, as you refused to answer my question and attacked me for "answering your question for him" which I didn't do. I never answered your question. I attacked you for asking it.

2) I feel like your tone with regards to yourself is wildly different from how you are interacting with other players. You want other people to be accountable for the things they do in thread, which is great, but you don't seem to want to hold yourself to the same standard. You continued to joke vote MoI while attacking other players for not being serious enough. You joke fake claimed. Basically it looked like you were trying to attack players for serious things while, when people called your behavior into question for similar reasons you basically were like "oh come on its still RVS"

3) One of the main things I look for in scum reading is what are the motivations of players when they're arguing with you. I wrote a whole long treatise about this in mafia discussion a long time ago. I think there is a fundamental difference in the way that town players and scum players argue. Town players tend to grant the possibility that the person they are arguing with is town, while scum players do not. This leads to different kinds of arguments. A town argument typically involves things like addressing all (or at least most) of the points, conceding arguments that they agree with, looking for other things about the player which are relevant. That is because town are interested in alignment. Scum are not, when they argue it typically looks like someone trying to score points in a debate. They attack weak arguments. They don't give credence to good points. They just simply point and try to make the other person look like an idiot because that makes them look like the "winner" of the argument. I feel like your arguing style much more closely aligns with this second pattern in the game then it does the first.

4) More to the point, you fell for a motivation tell that I deliberately threw out there to see who would attack it. You argued not in order to discern my alignment, but rather you attempted to discredit me by going for the low hanging fruit of the deliberately weak argument.

5) Your refusal to seriously claim is deliberately anti town because you're upset. Town refusing to claim (and fake claiming) when they're at l-1 hurts town in general. If you are town, I suggest you cut it out immediately. More importantly, I've seen town use this tactic far less than scum, in the hopes that the refusal to claim will diffuse the bandwagon.


Hope that helps!
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