Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[Killthestory]

when are we hammering CoM. This day is being boring

[Imperium]

Oh yeah no definitely not. I've never seen a player more disruptive to town progression than KT. I'm still not fully on board with the idea of policy lynches, but KT's existence is truly terrible for town and the game will be a lot more enjoyable/easier to process for all townies with him gone.

This quote kind of makes his later stance on policy lynches make more sense.

164 is kind of a really weird post in general:

You must be kidding... My first post in the game was yesterday. How is it possible to make a conclusion like that about someone at this point?

I'll be honest that post was annoying enough to push me away but I'm not going to rob the town because you're being foolish.

You must be kidding... My first post in the game was yesterday. How is it possible to make a conclusion like that about someone at this point?

I'll be honest that post was annoying enough to push me away but I'm not going to rob the town because you're being foolish.

You must be kidding... My first post in the game was yesterday. How is it possible to make a conclusion like that about someone at this point? Also why the #%&$ are you ISO'ing someone who has posted 6 posts in a 12 hour period and making conclusions based on it? I'm glad I call you scum later.

I'll be honest that post was annoying enough to push me away but I'm not going to rob the town because you're being foolish.

Which were three different responses to three different people. I suppose that this was something that he did on purpose in order to make a point, but I don't really understand why he'd be this offended on people pushing him for the policy lynch point.

I liked 168 as a knee-jerk response to someone agreeing with a point, especially since he did follow up with it. I didn't really mind his "I don't get lynched Day 1" as a response to KTS talking shit about lynching him, don't think it reads as him being worried about getting lynched.

Not sure, you may have to help me. Maybe the Kain policy-lynch business but I'd hope someone would be able to take it all with a grain of salt once they've seen my post-RVS play. Which is why I'm not too worried.

I think distancing from the policy-lynch business when it was something that sort of got him in trouble early game was a little iffy, but I find his stance on the KainTepes policy lynch as something I still don't understand (if he didn't believe in the KainTepes push when he was making it, why did he legitimately attempt to push it through? why didn't he back off earlier?) and that situation in general as something that's been talked about to death, so probably won't address too much wrt this.

I thought his point that Magna was concerned with his standing in the town because he questioned OceanWind's lack of read on him was weird and bad, as I've talked about before.

There's a difference between jokingly and clearly mentioning it in passing as opposed to doing it in the form of a question as to not look like you're doing it.

You saying that "hey, you're super Town and I am too, just give me a minute" didn't really look like a joke to me.

The things that he's done that I liked are mostly included who he decided to engage with; he's spent most of his day pushing some of the hardest targets to push with his CoM vote as an afterthought, which I'm not sure he would do as scum (whether or not CoM is scum, but this point is stronger if CoM is scum). I also sort of like the over reactiveness that everyone else hates; it reads more to me like he's willing to stand behind the content that he's created and legitimately doesn't understand when people criticize it, which is a point that's exceptionally clear in his 195, and I ended up liking his points a lot better once he came around on Magna and OceanWind.

[Imperium]

I feel better on Xisiq after reskimming his posts (don't have town right this moment and don't see reading them in depth as a huge priority).

I think that CoM-Snarky-Jim is the scum team. If any of them flip town, the first pool that I'd be reconsidering looks something like Severa-Lowell-Acyron, although in writing that specific pool out I don't have the faintest confidence or inkling that any of these three could be scum. I'm guessing the scum team is probably just CoM-Snarky-Jim.

[ChurchOfMercy]

I want to point out something. The post that follows is from Mafiaception where day two ABR was being heavily scum read, and I argued against the scum read on him as I had him as a decently strong town read. I laid out for one of the players that was scum reading him what my understanding of his game was as I'd played with him in several games in the past year and had not misread him once. This was his response to my description of his play style.

Subject: MAFIACEPTION GAME OVER! Flawless Victory!

I don't think that abr particularly enjoys being scum but I think he would be energized by a scum team he enjoys or respects. Titus would probably be on that list. However, I think he'd be a bit demotivated after his partner got lynched and instead he seems energized.

This is true. I'm impressed by your understanding of my game.

So, he believes I have an understanding of his game. He respects me as a player, and I'm incorrectly scum reading him here and I don't get any response whatsoever? Except that snarky type of this town is collectively bad and will lose the game?

This is my last game, maybe for awhile, maybe forever.

All the emotion and drive I usually pour into mafia has now been divested into making my partner happy. I don't have any energy left for this.

My problem isn't who is scum anymore, it's what will I do next to stay on this epic high before it comes down. I'm learning about who I am and what I like doing every single day, it's wonderfully fulfilling. It took me a long time to get my mafia game to a place where I was comfortable. Now I'm doing the same with life.

[Imperium]

I want to point out something. The post that follows is from Mafiaception where day two ABR was being heavily scum read, and I argued against the scum read on him as I had him as a decently strong town read. I laid out for one of the players that was scum reading him what my understanding of his game was as I'd played with him in several games in the past year and had not misread him once. This was his response to my description of his play style.

Subject: MAFIACEPTION GAME OVER! Flawless Victory!

I don't think that abr particularly enjoys being scum but I think he would be energized by a scum team he enjoys or respects. Titus would probably be on that list. However, I think he'd be a bit demotivated after his partner got lynched and instead he seems energized.

This is true. I'm impressed by your understanding of my game.

So, he believes I have an understanding of his game. He respects me as a player, and I'm incorrectly scum reading him here and I don't get any response whatsoever? Except that snarky type of this town is collectively bad and will lose the game?

This is my last game, maybe for awhile, maybe forever.

All the emotion and drive I usually pour into mafia has now been divested into making my partner happy. I don't have any energy left for this.

My problem isn't who is scum anymore, it's what will I do next to stay on this epic high before it comes down. I'm learning about who I am and what I like doing every single day, it's wonderfully fulfilling. It took me a long time to get my mafia game to a place where I was comfortable. Now I'm doing the same with life.

I'm very glad that you've found a partner that you're happy with and that you're directing your attention to that. I really am.

I'm sorry to hear this might be your last game for awhile and I'm sorry it's a game where you drew scum. I'd much prefer you to be town. If I'm somehow misreading you, I'm sorry for that too. I understand placing more importance on your life than mafia. There's been several games over the past year where I've not given it as much as people expect because of outside influences, so when people were scum reading me for being different I tried to at least make up for not being what they expect by being as transparent in my thoughts as I could.

I'm not seeing that from you and when you know you have a pretty distinctive scum to town meta, and you're playing very strongly to that scum meta and you would have to know that you are then I would expect some sort of adjustments, which I'm not seeing. Klingon's posting looking nothing like the past couple times I played with her as town doesn't help that at all. I just can't see you guys as town here.

But congratulations on your happiness. I hope the high lasts for a very long time.

[Bellaphant]

Can we hold of day's end 'til I've responded to peeps and re-done my meta dive?

Also, congrats abr.

[ChurchOfMercy]

Thanks guys

Yeah, it's too bad we drew scum, it sucks letting our teammates down like that. The only benefit from us getting rightfully lynched by this skillful town today, is that, our buddies have been on our wagon for 25 pages, so they can use the towncred to carry them into a win. Good luck, scumbuddies!

[Bellaphant]

My issue is he starts of by saying he was low hanging fruit, then he wasn't, then he isn't, and then it doesn't matter anyway. I just feel there's a lot of distancing between what was said between one time and the next around the same core idea.

No. The argument goes like this:

Spoiler: Low Hanging fruit argument

1. Acryon: (MagnaOfIllusion) actually seems to be jumping on low-hanging fruit and seems overly concerned with his standing amongst the town.

2. MagnaOfIllusion: I want to highlight the “Low hanging fruit” comment. He’s suggesting I’m attacking him for being a soft target for some reason. Yet he doesn’t see himself as one – he brags about not ever being lynched Day 1. So are we supposed to believe he is both simultaneously an easy target (intimating I am scum pushing on weak Town) and not one?

3. Acryon: At the time I was a low hanging fruit. I think once you get a closer look you'll realize I'm not, but that doesn't mean I wasn't at the time within the context of the game.

4. MagnaOfIllusion: Um, whut? So you were Low Hanging Fruit but you are not? I can't wrap my head around the level of self-contradiction here. Either you are an easy target who can get pushed for questionable reasons or you aren't. The fact that you were trying to position yourself as such in a soft attempt to attack me I find suspect given your response here.

5. Acryon: You're acting as if 1) perception doesn't matter and 2) status doesn't change. As for perception, being or not being low-hanging fruit has a lot to do with the overall town's perception of someone as such. Low-hanging fruit doesn't have a strict definition in mafia since the game is so fluid and differs so much from game to game. In the situation of me, I was a low-hanging fruit to you at the time because I hadn't had a real chance to even post something non-RVS yet you jumped on me for not doing so. Players are not strictly low-hanging fruit or not low-hanging fruit.

6. MagnaOfIllusion: I'm acting as if you were using weasel language to attack me, that I called you out on it, and now the phrase "Low Hanging Fruit" is some nebulous, ever-changing concept that varies from post to post. Fact is that you were using language calculated to have a negative connotation (translated - MoI is attacking me because I'm an easy target) while not being able to justify how that stance makes any sense. If you were at that point as easy a target as you say then my vote on you would clearly not be using such "bad" logic as you keep claiming. You can't be have been simultaneously be an easy target and being attacked with terrible logic that wouldn't hold up to scrutiny at the same time.

7. Acryon: What? I already pointed to how it made sense. I appeared as "low-hanging fruit" at the time since I had only commented on the policy lynch essentially, and my later posts where I didn't address anything else made it look like I wasn't reading the game. Rather than thinking "Hm, it's only his first day posting; let's see what he has tomorrow", you demonized me as purposefully not commenting on what all had happened within the game. You saw my lack of posts relative to the rest of the game and turned it into --> "Lacks any engagement in the game beyond the Policy Lynch issue."

Show me precisely where Acryon was doing a lot of distancing between one idea and the next. I strongly suspect you are bs'ing your explanations and riding on MagnaOfIllusion's coattails. I want specifics here.

Also, before I go trawl back through the two games I was linked, why do you want it? It's there for you if you want it - and it'd be a dumb thing for me to make up. If I can get behind your answer, I'll do it.

I want to verify that you did in fact read the games like you say you did. I'm not going to assume that you did if you don't provide evidence of it. First, you delayed providing this information. Now you are asking me to justify why I'm asking when it's completely obvious. Then you claim that you'll only provide it if you can "get behind my reason." If you really did look at those games like you say you did, this should be trivially easy.

Ok, I'm not going over this again, because you seem to be unable to differentiate a different reading of a situation to a scummy one. I'm also bored of staring at the arguement from a million pages ago, rather than focusing on what is changing in the game.



Acron makes the first point in 189 that he's never lynched day 1. He is also, at the same time, identifying himself as 'low hanging fruit' as part of an attack on moi. But he then states in 254 that he doesn't believe he is. He also doesn't seem concerned with being 'lhf' in 191. I am then even more confused by the way it doesn't seem to matter whether players are or are not lhf in 256. So, to me it goes Ac: 'Haha don't vote me, I'm never lynched day 1' (confidence in his play) then 'you jumped on lhf' (not confidence) then 'I am not lhf' (confidence) then 'it doesn't matter anyway' and then he uses lfh to suggest moi 'demonised' him for his content. Why doesn't this look like a contradictory attitude to you? If he was bothered about looking like lhf, I'd've prolly gone with 'yeah, I understand my content's been a bit shit, but I'm working on it'. The whole argument looks set up to make moi look bad over an idea where she can't win. I've explained other distancing around the pl in detail to you.

Firstly, I can't work out how to link to posts, so I'll give you some edited snippets.
I asked you why because it seems pointless for you to assume I'm lying, but, whatever. Admittedly some of this was in response to pressue, but the whole thing in very tonally different.

Spoiler:

'& you have the audacity to have a go at me for an over reaction! btw you're the one who has quick hammered a townie who'd voted for you (OMGUS, er didn't you accuse me of that?) in this game Whiskers. In contrast I've voted for somebody & you've disagreed with my reasoning. I'd say you're winning when it comes to shitty play. ' 'So what? If we had a vig who was forced to shoot the worst player on day 1 then you'd be dead by now. Shit play is no guarantee of anything. He hasn't given us enough to vote on him yet.' 'IN YOUR FUCKING OPINION. I don't know why you can't have people disagreeing with you about what scum tells are but I don't wanna talk about that any more, too many posts centred around that from you, taking up too much of my attention.' 'Death, so why the fuck are you asking for a modkill if you think it's unlikely? Pointless post then & you could have asked the mod via PM. The slot is also statistically more likely to be town so you're scumming the place up with this mod kill bull shit. Why are you objecting to me saying there should be a replacement so badly?' 'Me getting satisfaction from your death isn't gonna do us any good you clown. 's soon as you've come under significant pressure, you've hopped on the largest wagon. Love it.' 'Well done on outing the doc people! Are town even gonna have any roles left at the rate this game is going? At least I've got my role out there which is more than Victor managed.' 'Yeah save it farside, your constant buddying up to Golden Mole is sickening.' 'Derpa derp is actually quite a fun nickname for you, I'll stick with that, thanks Derpa derp. You gave a list once then lurked the rest of the time. That's like getting a BJ off your girlfriend once a year, just not good enough is it. Well done for unvoting me, do you want a medal? I guess you have to look like you actually care'

sev is town.

I don't see it. Why do you say that

We never got a decent answer to this.

Also, MoI's share in the push on me and particularly his last reaction feel incredibly fake.
He strikes me as the kind of person who, as scum, would go out on a limb defending his partner like this.
Major FoS on them as well, but obviously it's not as certain as my Snarky scumread.

Pre-associatives before a flip, ewww. Also, @sev, there are questions for you in 607

no sarcasm, i genuinely liked your early play and pushes earlier today; I thought that you were aggressive as hell and also right as hell and was still picking up on decent things until you had that I THINK COM IS TOWN and then other reads i didn't like meltdown. if you're around and i'm gone tomorrow, bring the old killthestory back.

VOTE: CoM

Church is getting lynched today anyway. No time to switch. Sort of sad to see it coming, but I need to justify myself.

Can you expand on 'justifying yourself'?

SS is usually kind of a pushover but he can really fight back when he's under pressure.
I don't feel any backbone in his push on me and I really do feel like he went for me because he thought I was an easy target.

It's especially strong feelings considering how he is continuing to hold a scumread but he can't really throw anything at me anymore.
I don't think he expected the level of pushback that he got and I think it totally threw him off.

Was it pushback from you, mainly, that you think threw him?

[Severa]

I shall use the tons of towncred that I will receive from this wagon to assure us a scum win.

Rest in peace. Our cause shall never falter.

[Bellaphant]

At this point, Lowell is probably very easily my third, but past that there's Jim whose posting I sort of liked when he was around and then the group of players who I'm town reading but not confidently (and hence could probably see them as scum), which is the mass I'll sort out with our deadline extension.

Lowell was the first person who brought up the possibility of ChurchOfMercy being mafia (who you claim to be 95% sure on). He was also the second vote on the wagon. Is he bussing?

Do you think he isn't? I'm kinda wondering if he wasn't hella surprised by the reactions he got from it, when there might've been easier votes out there (like me! ;P)

If CoM dare be scum Lowell is could be scum. I thought about it, and it seems somewhat likely.

What about Lowell without any associatives?

Wait. Are the things you really like and town read about him because his reads match yours? And what you don't like is where your reads deviate?

Oh boy.

Super glad you got into this.

Yeah, and the rush to end the day when it's objectively better to get more information and stances from Jim's replacement and wait for Bellaphant to show up again (I had outstanding questions to her) was pretty bad too.

Stuff I want to get done before ending the day:

1. See Imperium's views on the gamestate as a whole that they planned to post.
2. Get Bellaphant's response.
3. Get Ollie's updated opinion on everything that happened.
3. Wait for Jim's replacement to catch up and post thoughts.

Ugh, stuff like this is super towny.


@imp

40I can only think I mis-read the vote, because I clearly have asked him why he's voting away from the established wagon...which is the one he's voting on. 0.0 I was like 8am, I think I read a vote for ocean.
irt nos, she's questioning a statement ollie made as fact without much evidence (irt me hedging) and 192 was a decent question as there was almost 0 pressure on acron. It caught my eye at the time, and I am bound to identify more with people who catch the shame shit I do.
326 I wondered what was different between mine and coms, considering coms was literally the post before. com and I have recipricol scum-reads and I thought it would've been picked up on. If acron hadn't been posting literally straight after it it mayn't have pinged me, ill be honest, but it was and it just seemed strange.
With lowell's reads, i've already explained why kt is shitty, easy scum-read for scum, I know I'm town, and by that point he'd mentioned me twice times in iso: one about rvs (just a quote) and 252 because I 'very much looks like a player who just wants to look like s/he's interacting--asking and answering pointless questions'. The only vaguely decent thing about this post is the com scum-read he acknowledges two of the three have scum-reads on each other, but just files it under 'bussing' (without looking at why: I think I maxed out at three votes, so in this world where com is my scum partner I'm not sure what they getting out of it). if he's scum with com, he was at l-2. I think at the time I was at 0 votes.

[Bellaphant]

@sev, are you ignoring me for....reasons?

[Lowell]

Mostly out this weekend. Not that it matters this game.

[Killthestory]

wait hes actually scum?

im deathtunneling myself tommorow as an fyi

[ChurchOfMercy]

wait hes actually scum?

im deathtunneling myself tommorow as an fyi

I find that Severa's scumhunting ability is much more accurate the what it actually says in our role pm. I mean, we could have read our role PM wrong, or the role PMs could have been mixed up, or we could remember it wrong. I could check again right now, but who could say, maybe I'm experiencing hallucinations from all this working out I've been doing. I much rather trust Severa's confidence and poise, don't you see how she just radiates certainty, how could anyone doubt that. We are necessarily scum.

[ChurchOfMercy]

Stop lynching CoM today please.

Snarky is scum and they're dying today.

She could still switch her vote to Snarky, though. Maybe Snarky is scum too, and by Severa's cunning and strategy, she will make him die instead of us.

[Severa]

You've done nothing to pique my interest, penguin girl.

[ChurchOfMercy]

This is her male counterpart. Post 620 was particularly awesome. Let's bring some of that awesome back.

[Severa]

The only benefit from us getting rightfully lynched by this skillful town today, is that, our buddies have been on our wagon for 25 pages, so they can use the towncred to carry them into a win. Good luck, scumbuddies!

Only scum attempting to WIFOM say stuff like this.
Goodbye ABR.

[Severa]

For the record, I was talking to Bella, who is penguin girl.

[ChurchOfMercy]

The only benefit from us getting rightfully lynched by this skillful town today, is that, our buddies have been on our wagon for 25 pages, so they can use the towncred to carry them into a win. Good luck, scumbuddies!

Only scum attempting to WIFOM say stuff like this.
Goodbye ABR.

I love these definitive statements, because they are so true, 100% of the time, without a doubt. There's really no ambiguity to mafia when it comes down to it, it's just a logical program, you insert the variables, and sometimes you really only need one variable, the one where you check if they say WIFOM stuff like this, and if the answer is yes, then voila, they are scum!

It's no wonder mafia is such an easy game to master.

[ChurchOfMercy]

Of course, I am not admitting to any WIFOM. If I were WIFOMing, that would be a disaster. I'm telling you that you are right, and we are scum! It's not any more complicated than that. The level of thought and analysis has condemned our slot beyond any imaginable wiggle room. We've been had, good Klingon.

[SnarkySnowman]

Intent to vote CoM. I have no idea what the count is right now and don't want to derphammer.

[Killthestory]

It's L-2, put him at L-1 please

[OceanWind]

I'm going to catch up later tonight. Don't put anyone at L-1 please. Killthestory said he would hammer and is holding his vote for that purpose.

I want to see the replacement actually post. The 24 hours are up so mod should be looking right about now but I don't think he's been very actively checking the thread.

[Killthestory]

no im not.

why would i hold my vote

: ) ) ) )) ) )