Mini 1782 Game Over

[Roshar]

@Huntress, while you did have multiple scum reads, you only really explained one, and barely at that.

In terms of Jake's 574, it's not that I disapprove of his play style, it's that I don't believe for a second that he's trying to lure Mhs/Frozen's scum buddies out. That is a ludicrous claim and looks like he's just trying to explain his actions which were questioned by Maverick in 572.

In terms of 615, again this is something Frozen and I disagreed on if you have read our earlier posts. Being reactionary is one thing but scum reading everyone who finds you scummy is really off and earns scum points from me.

521. His three points where he attempts to defend himself are points that can be easily refuted. 1) I've provided two people, i.e, I'm helpful town. 2)I've done more than most players,when no, he's really replying to all the fingers pointed at him for his refusal to start in pregame 3) Why are you trying to figure me out, go figure RC out.

His self-defense came out really weak and worked against him imo. I was highlighting that.

The other half of that post is an attempt to slap a scum read at Mhs. The reasons he pointed out I feel worked more for Mhs than against him, and begs the question, 'Does he truly think Mhs is scummy or is he simply trying to push Mhs away from pressuring him?'

[Froot Loop]

I was also pinged by Jeanne's vote on Jake. I do believe her when she said she doesn't like tunnelers, but I don't think Jake had really been tunneling at the time. So one way to make sense of that post is to see it as scum pushing through a lynch using one's established preferences as cover. So of course

I also buy Max's scumread of the slot as legitimate.

(my bold)

@APF - can you explain what you mean by 'legitimate'?

Second scum read was Froot Loop but I can't remember why at the moment and it isn't clear from her ISO, which means it may have been some interaction or other which looked off when read in context. I'll get back to that later.

Let me know!

I'm having trouble getting reads in this game over and above Max, maybe because of the activity. Lowell hasn't been responding to the questions people have been asking, but I don't think this is AI as yet. Nos seems ok; I don't see anything too scummy in the argument with smith. I'll have a look at Huntress' comments about Roshar next.

[mhsmith0]

Roshar, you asked about maxs 1077. Not sure on the huntress thing, but I did have a different takeaway...

skimming here, sorry.

clumsy seems like town just for writing a million posts when called out on content. Seems pretty absurd to do as scum.

I would be looking at Shadow or Huntress I think for the vote.

Why would this be absurd to do as wolf? Popping in to give enough content to diminish the momentum against you, then popping back out and returning to regularly scheduled non production, seems pretty wolf to me. Are to suggesting that this is not what clumsy has done? Or are you suggesting this pattern is somehow town indicative?

Also, exactly how much useful content did you get from those posts anyway?

That being said, I totally would have self hammered if I was scum to cut off the time for discussion because it's pretty obvious that this is going to happen.

With a good amount of time left at that point, and no stated intent to hammer or claim demand, I don't find this remotely credible. And to be honest, I tend to find "I'd have done ___ as wolf", when ___ doesn't really make much sense, as a wolf tell.

Overall, Ymmv, but I don't see a better case out there. If you want to sell me on a different one I'll listen but I'm not really buying anything else right now.

[mhsmith0]

Ps "you" meant everyone in case that wasn't clear.

[Maxous]

Huntress took a week to briefly explain one read and pop up with zero town-reads.

So taking the time to read the thread and giving my scums reads (plural, not just one) is scummy is it? Please explain that one for me. And why are you so concerned about my town reads?

because i suspect you are struggling to come up with reads and reasons for them.

skimming here, sorry.

clumsy seems like town just for writing a million posts when called out on content. Seems pretty absurd to do as scum.

I would be looking at Shadow or Huntress I think for the vote.

Why would this be absurd to do as wolf? Popping in to give enough content to diminish the momentum against you, then popping back out and returning to regularly scheduled non production, seems pretty wolf to me.

I admit Clumsy disappearing again weakens my feeling on that.

[Roshar]

Hey Ircher, how much time do we have left?

[Nosferatu]

Day 1 will end on April 20 8:45 PM EST or in 1 day, 6 hours, 41 minutes give or take. It's a countdown.

[Roshar]

My bad, didn't notice that the VC was a count down. Thanks.

k

VOTE: Clumsy

L-2

[Clumsy]

Huntress took a week to briefly explain one read and pop up with zero town-reads.

So taking the time to read the thread and giving my scums reads (plural, not just one) is scummy is it? Please explain that one for me. And why are you so concerned about my town reads?

because i suspect you are struggling to come up with reads and reasons for them.

skimming here, sorry.

clumsy seems like town just for writing a million posts when called out on content. Seems pretty absurd to do as scum.

I would be looking at Shadow or Huntress I think for the vote.

Why would this be absurd to do as wolf? Popping in to give enough content to diminish the momentum against you, then popping back out and returning to regularly scheduled non production, seems pretty wolf to me.

I admit Clumsy disappearing again weakens my feeling on that.

...Are you guys serious? I go on V/LA that was announced in advance, say that I'm working all day yesterday, and now you guys are using that against me? Really? -_- I'm sure there's better scumhunting to be doing here. Give me a few minutes to catch up, this just caught my eye and irritated me.

[Clumsy]

I'm on my phone so I can't quote.

I think there's evidence that that inactivity was legitimate, rather than scum avoiding saying anything in the thread. Voting for clumsy for inactivity is now illegitimate for me.

Is that the only reasoning behind the wagon on clumsy? That would seem rather odd considering they seem to be the only wagon at this point.

One quick thing before I forget to mention it. Was anyone else talking about RC while he was here? I know I said a little something about the behavior seeming weird and kind of scummy, and I thought at least one other person agreed, but I can't find it. My point is, I'm being railed for inactivity (on V/LA at that) while RC's replacement Titus has posted a grand total of 9 posts, only 5 of them actually having to do with the game. I'm not railing on you Titus, and I know you're V/LA right now, it's just odd that I'm getting singled out from it.

[Clumsy]

@Froot
The reason I say that is that a lot of your posts have seemed to be just surface questioning or answering, or making observations on the game. It doesn't really seem like you're doing much digging, you know? But by far, you are not in my idea of a good lynch today at all. It could just be your play/posting style like I said in the original post. Just putting my observations out there. Here's some examples if you would like them.

Spoiler: Quotes

I'm on my phone so I can't quote.

I think there's evidence that that inactivity was legitimate, rather than scum avoiding saying anything in the thread. Voting for clumsy for inactivity is now illegitimate for me.

Is that the only reasoning behind the wagon on clumsy? That would seem rather odd considering they seem to be the only wagon at this point.

I second Roshar's question to Huntress.

I feel good about smith's vote on Clumsy, it's not just for being a lurker. I still think Max is the better choice.

VOTE: Clumsy

L-1

Let's get things moving.

Do you mean to a lynch, or is this a pressure vote?

What is town arguing anyway?

it's a bunch of town-aligned players arguing amongst themsleves

@Clumsy - when/why did your read on Maverick change? You said he's lean town in post 561.

Sorry, just saw this, although a bit more information would be nice:

That post was about Maverick. But now I'm back to on the fence with him. It's almost exclusively gut though. Something is bothering me about him, and I can't figure it out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and he was a lot more aggressive and talkative in each. One was town and one was scum, so it's hardly certain, but the difference here is jarring, and I suspect it's because he's been trying to keep his head down among what's been, let's just say, some aggressive personalities. He hasn't been scum reading anyone, he hasn't been getting into the fray, he's been keeping his head down as much as he can.

If he was chatty as town and scum, he could be posting less as town and scum? Interestingly, I get the impression that he's a bit non-committal in general which conflicts with the aggressive play you saw in his other games.

Also, I've had a read through his ISO and come up with these:

-_- If you would care to look at my game history, I only have 2 completed games here. Both of them Newbie games. 9 players, 2 scum. Haven't been in a 12 person game. I thought there would be 3 scum, but I wanted to make sure so I didn't have any errors in logic. The fact that you think it's a ham handed fake townslip is one of the more egotistical things I've seen in a while. Which is saying something.

I read this as a firm response to Lowell saying he faked a townslip. But APF thinks he missed an opportunity to question Lowell further (post 964)

At first, I had the impression that Maverick was just vote hopping to whatever looked good repeatedly. Going with the flow. After going back and ISOing though, it's not true. Decent vibes from this so far. Lean town.

Town read on Maverick.

@APF - you interpreted these as empty words in post 964?

My eyes are throbbing as I read the frst 8 pages.


RC is kund of floating around, and that indicative of him being scummy. But Titus I feel much better about reading.
APF is kind of naughty too. Didnt like much he did.

He has been kind of quiet, which is odd because from the games I've read, he's usually pretty talkative, right? (Not that I can say much on this. >_<)

Just for clarity, is this saying Titus is a town-lean for you?

[my edit]

As for the ISO, I did look into it, but didn't find as much as I had hoped. I like your side of it more, but I could see a scum team between you with this used as distancing. What is interesting is that while you're pushing him pretty hard, you stay near the middle of his readlist. He looks kind of passive while under pressure for you, which pings me as somewhat scummy from my (limited) experience.

Asking pisskop for a concrete read/clarification. Attempted analysis of Roshar/APF ISO. (Fair enough that this was after being pressured.)

I'm way more convinced by my own argument for lynching Max

Max, what's your interpretation of the Jake/FA fight?

Max - why are you reading the fights as TvT? Is there anything specific you can point to?

Also, can you clarify why you think Jake was close to getting lynched?

(my bold, on my post! haha)

What about this question?

I literally cheered at Clumsy's post 1037 then I saw the page one and was like "Oh nooooo.." hahaha. That being said, I don't mind it and the spoiler tags are helpful.

I agree about Lowell advocating for something anti-town.

Anyone who asks things like "is this a pressure vote, or a lynch vote" is inherently suspicious, IMO.

I was trying to clarify Roshar's comment when she voted. Why is asking that scummy?

Lowell, can you clarify this? I hadn't thought about devaluing the vote but considering Roshar's comment when she voted, I wanted to know what she meant.

RC, you're voting for Nos.

This is another of the votes on Nos:

Jake is town, farmer is town. I'm back up to 'meh' on smith.

VOTE: nos

I like this idea. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice... something something... you DONT GET FOOLED AGAIN.

tbh, FA's is the most reasonable, whether or not it's going to stand after his run through, it looks like he's calling Nos out for changing his read a bit baselessly.

I understood that you're voting for RC because of his play in a previous game. Are you looking for scum in this game, or in the things people have done in this game?

[mhsmith0]

@clumsy: The V/LA bit is a fair counter to my counter against Max's argument in the first bit. That said, your production bump was plausibly just busywork designed to stay alive when under fire (the V/LA bit complicates the story, of course, that's a fair point), so at the least I don't think it's fair to town read you for it, and Max's stated town read of you for it in 1077 IMO needed to be argued against.

Also I don't find your "I'd have totally self-hammered as wolf" to be credible given the scenario you were in; even as L-1, there was no intent to hammer, no claim demand (unless I missed it, and please let me know if I did). Why self hammer there when there was more than enough time in the day to make a counter wagon reasonably plausible? I actually really want an answer here, because it felt like a wolf slip to me.

[Clumsy]

To explain post 1184 a bit more clearly, what I mean is that I find it a little odd that I'm being pushed and not her. I can think of a few reasons off the top of my head.

-She's a replacement, so a bit more slack is given
-She has a reputation on the site, being here for a decent amount of time, while I do not
-Scum might be pushing mine for an easier mislynch. Less overextension by targeting a newer player instead of Titus.
-Titus could be part of the scum team
-The suspicion was on me before she replaced in here, kind of superseding anything there.

Of course, 1,2, and 5 are relatively harmless. I'm most worried about Number 3. If I'm lynched, I'd look into who was pushing my wagon and staying away from Titus.

P-edit: Response in next post.

[Clumsy]

@clumsy: The V/LA bit is a fair counter to my counter against Max's argument in the first bit. That said, your production bump was plausibly just busywork designed to stay alive when under fire (the V/LA bit complicates the story, of course, that's a fair point), so at the least I don't think it's fair to town read you for it, and Max's stated town read of you for it in 1077 IMO needed to be argued against.

Also I don't find your "I'd have totally self-hammered as wolf" to be credible given the scenario you were in; even as L-1, there was no intent to hammer, no claim demand (unless I missed it, and please let me know if I did). Why self hammer there when there was more than enough time in the day to make a counter wagon reasonably plausible? I actually really want an answer here, because it felt like a wolf slip to me.

That's fair enough, and yeah, it could be a last ditch effort to get out of it as caught scum. That's not what it was, but you can't just take me at my word there. I probably wouldn't town-read for it either, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't appreciative of it. It is a little strange though, I'll give you that.

Also I'm assuming "wolf" is coming from werewolf, the equivalent of scum in different versions of the game. If I'm wrong here let me know.

No, there was no intent given or claim demand, but I was definitely feeling under pressure. I was the only wagon with any traction, and it seems like a lot of people were pretty dead set on me being the lynch today. That comment wasn't made as a legitimate defense, just remarking on the benefits of cutting off the day for scum, not allowing the replacements to get caught up properly and launching into night with no more discussion. I requested specifically that we have more time for that. That's why I was pushing so hard against Lowell for wanting a hammer, because cutting off that time for the replacements is a strong scum benefit.

[Clumsy]

Now that you call out the Maxous thing, it does seem like he's trying to stay near the fence with me. Push me too hard, and when I flip town he looks bad. But town read me too hard, and my lynch might not happen.

[Roshar]

Clumsy, willing to jump on the Maxous wagon? (you know with him finding you scummy for inactivity with you being on V/LA or what not)

That's probably the only compromise that can be made. Cause I'm kinda scum-reading him more than you at this point. Yes it really really sucks that titus and huntress are barely chipping in, and this is not in their favor, but they've also provided us with nothing to work with. We're one day away from end of game and it's going to be impossible for any other wagon to form.

[Clumsy]

Ugh...

I was feeling better about Maxous when he was the first to unvote me and give time for everything + time for me to talk, but this does make it look a bit worse... but if it's going to be between me and him, even if I were 99% sure he was town... I'm 100% sure I am. So if that's the only other wagon, then yeah.

[Roshar]

K, let's do it.

VOTE: Maxous

[Clumsy]

VOTE: Maxous

[Ircher]

Vote Count - Day 1 VC #18

Titus (0) -
Mhsmith (0) -
Huntress (1) - Max
Froot (0) -
Johnny (0) -
Max (4) - Froot, Titus, Rosh, Clumsy
FA_Q2 (0) -
Shaddow (0) -
Nos (0) -
Plain (0) -
Lowell (1) - Nos
Clumsy (4) - Lowell, FA_Q2, Plain, Mhsmith
Rosh (1) - Huntress
No Lynch (0) -
Not Voting (2) - Johnny, Shaddow

Deadline

Day 1 will end on April 20 8:45 PM EST or in (expired on 2016-04-20 20:45:00).

Lynch Threshold

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Mod Notes

Titus V/LA til April 19.

[Titus]

Hey, looks like we need Max Nos Huntress Johnny and Shaddow to break this tie.

That's about half the game deliberately avoiding major wagons.

Huge red flag here. Why is that? Can someone tell me why players (other than those on VLA) were not posting major wagons or pushing anything according to my quick skim of the VCs?

[Huntress]

In my case it's because I'm not very keen on either wagon. Clumsy was an initial scum read but his later posts have been better. It's the other way round with Jake/Max. Jake's early posting looked null to town but Max not so much. Out of those two I'd prefer to vote Max.

[Lowell]

I'm not really paying attention. Terrible, yes. But it could be worse, I could be one of those idiots not voting or voting for non-lead wagons.

A quick ISO through max: I'm fine with that lynch if it comes to it. I don't see what redeeming clumsy qualities huntress sees, but whatever.

[Huntress]

In terms of Jake's 574, it's not that I disapprove of his play style, it's that I don't believe for a second that he's trying to lure Mhs/Frozen's scum buddies out. That is a ludicrous claim and looks like he's just trying to explain his actions which were questioned by Maverick in 572.

But that's not what he's saying there. He said he was trying to figure other people out like was doing with Frozen. There's nothing about looking for scumbuddies there.

In terms of 615, again this is something Frozen and I disagreed on if you have read our earlier posts. Being reactionary is one thing but scum reading everyone who finds you scummy is really off and earns scum points from me.

Again, that's not what he was saying in that post. He was pointing out what was wrong with Maverick's case on him.

521. His three points where he attempts to defend himself are points that can be easily refuted. 1) I've provided two people, i.e, I'm helpful town. 2)I've done more than most players,when no, he's really replying to all the fingers pointed at him for his refusal to start in pregame 3) Why are you trying to figure me out, go figure RC out.

His self-defense came out really weak and worked against him imo. I was highlighting that.

The other half of that post is an attempt to slap a scum read at Mhs. The reasons he pointed out I feel worked more for Mhs than against him, and begs the question, 'Does he truly think Mhs is scummy or is he simply trying to push Mhs away from pressuring him?'

What I see in that post is Jake trying to sort out mhs's motive for attacking him.

[Huntress]

because i suspect you are struggling to come up with reads and reasons for them.

Nope; not struggling. I have already given my scum reads but just not got round to filling in the gaps re: Froot Loop yet.