Mini 1762: Game Over

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hello. I'm Rubixxx's replacement. Since this game is 60ish pages long I'll be reading and doing approximately 20ish page recaps catch-ups in the next 24 hours or so.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok so 22 pages in the books so far. I've had to scan Mod posts enough to understand that no lynch actually happened Day 1 and that we have a spare kill Night 1.

At this point in my read none of the top current vote-getters would earn my vote. Putting a gun to my head at the end of page 22 I'd drop a vote on one of Kirroha, Nino, maybe Radiant or Raso. Both Kirroha and Nino have made multiple posts to this point that say to me "This so isn't a Town thought process". It may be ancient history to you but fresh to me. And yes ... I've read through the whole "Breadcrumbing" fiasco. That's not a Town-tell. Town has no reason to breadcrumb VT in the first 5 pages.

I'm taking a break to decompress before going back in. More to come.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So pages 23 to 44 went by much faster as it contained the end of Day 1. I'll finish up my read the rest of the way maybe today or tonight. Tomorrow worse case.

Vote: Radiant

I've seen enough to be happy with this vote. Your day 1 was filled with Appeals to Proficiency, cheeky tunnelling on BBT, and hey you are alive so odds are really favorable you are scum right? Said so yourself in 444.

Ok less sarcastically what sold me was his play around implosion at the end of Day 1 and start of Day 2 (where I stopped reading to post my progress). While doggedly trying for his pet mislynch (ego driven I'm sure) he calls implosion scum several times. See 975 and 980. He's a scum-read just not as strong as assured BBT. Yet Day 2 his interaction with implosion is "Here I'm going to convince you I'm Town".

The secret to why Kirroha got so many different votes Day 1? Radient powerbussed her for 74 and 75.

Ok. Back to reading the rest of Day 2 and whatever leads to this page Day 3.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Bluh

Since you appear to be around let me ask you something I can't quite wrap my head around as from a Town player.

You claim as VT to bread-crumb VT. You say it can't come from scum because no-one backs off from VT lynches. People subsequently back off your lynch for said VT WIFOM claim.

You back of lynch on Golden Rooster late Day 1 (which went to No Lynch) for a VT claim. So you yourself just undercut your own WIFOM logic.

But then at the start of Day 2 you want to lynch someone else for crumbing. When you don't think they would crumb as a VT also. So your logic is hey that's not a VT crumb so let's lynch it?

Please explain your though process because I am all ears on that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Perhaps you want to log onto your correct account?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So work has been a pain these last 12 hours but I finally carved out some free time to get my last 22ish pages in. Can't say that it has swayed my opinion to any significant degree. Especially today has been really unispired. If you are Town feel a bit of shame. If you are scum (and by this I mean Radient and K) congrats you and your partners are probably puffing out your chest in your QT.

I see there was a mass claim. I'm VT but given the one flip we know (3 shot JK) and the claimed 1 shot Vig it shouldn't surprise anyone. I'm curious what mislynch Radient is going to try to push through with his 'results'.

Actually it would be great if Radient went ahead and actually claimed targets for both nights. I'd really like to see if he can actually justify whatever he claims.

Hello MoI

You listed kirroha as scum with a reason "VT crumb is not a towntell". Do you have any other reason than that?

Of course. These are simply general catch-up posts. I'll walk Town through Kirroha's ISO tomorrow and highlight the salient points.

Hey Kirroha - where you been? I'm waiting for you to explain (or parrot whatever explanation Radient tries to feed you in the Scum QT) what I asked you about last page. Pretty large inconsistencies in your thought processes there I must say.

[MagnaofIllusion]

so am I confirmed town

Well aside from the fact that his claim seems pretty far fetched I’m wondering why you drew this conclusion given that Radient basically said he thinks his investigations can be compromised.

So please enlighten us on how you came to that conclusion.

Alright.
I'm positive that Magna is scum at this point but I'll move on.
I am a JOAT. 1-Shot GS, 1-Shot Cop, 1-Shot Commute.

I used my investigative abilities N1 and N2 on Ink and Implosion. Since I suspected that scum may have a doctor or godfather to counteract my abilities, I made that role cop claim to fish out a doc claim, who would basically be confirmed scum at the point of my claim.

VOTE: MagnaIllusion

Magna is either scum or so confbiased on me that he's beyond hope. He's our lynch today.

So much goodness to crunch in one post. Things I want to bring to everyone’s attention because I believe they are salient –

1. Note that the vote on me is effectively OMGUS. And note that he leaves himself a nice little escape hatch that actually isn’t true. Beyond hope to help Town would be unwilling to move from a lynch despite the fact it leads to a No Lynch. For example – Radiant’s play Day 1 surrounding BBT who was pretty clearly Town. I’d happily lynch Kirroha today also if every is going to buy Radiant’s fake-claim. More on that in a few lines. But back to the escape hatch – if I do get lynched today I’ll flip VT and then Radiant has already laid the groundwork to take no responsibility for yet another Town player he has pushed.

2. I’m not going to set-up bash too much (because that is how Town loses game instead of scum-hunting) but this claim pretty much reeks of fake-claim. Firstly it has two strong investigative shots which is pretty darn unusual for a JOAT. A Gunsmith / Cop with maybe a Tracker / Watcher? Much more believable. Secondly it is tailor made to explain why scum Radient survives tonight after his claim today “he commuted” which gets him to Day 4 to explain why he is still alive despite all his Appeal to Proficency he has been spouting about himself. Lastly he’s once again built in escape clauses to turn on either of the players he now claims are cleared in-case he needs to seal the win for his teammates (I believe scum have method to defeat me).

I'm not voting magna unless there's some damn good reason. RC and GIF are off the table too (and nino obviously). I guess that leaves rask/gr/synd/kirro. Magna, do you think 3-shot jk + 1-shot vig would be balanced in 13p? I guess it's possible if there are only 2 scum but if that's the case we could cross that bridge if the game doesn't end if we mislynch in what we thought was lylo.

I don’t think set-up bashing is too helpful given we have zero information about Mafia slots. But to answer your question – maybe. 3 Shot Jailkeep is more or less a full strength JK in a small game. The longer the game goes the weaker it is in comparison but how often do small games go more than 4 to 5 days on Mafiascum these days? Is a 1-Shot Vig more worthwhile than other full strength non-information roles? Maybe, depends on use. I could see Town with 3 shot JK and 1 shot Vig versus a team of Goons or perhaps a limited shot Mafia Rolecop.

If RC's not lying (and if neither gif/implosion are godfather) then the game's actually pretty easy.

It's 3 out of {MOI, syndesis, GR, and kirroha}
and I think it's unlikely GR and kirroha are on the same team which means its {MOI, GR, syn} or {MOI, kirroha, syn}

So I’ve been trying to figure out who make sense as a possible Radient / Kirroha partners. This post makes me think I should be delving back into your ISO given that your start out your post with the big fat IF then ignore that it is very possible Radiant is lying.

How the heck would I know people would back off? People generally don't, which was what I pointed out. Yeah, like I said, it's ultimately still WIFOMy if you want to disregard it that way. But what I pointed out was that it was strategically very bad for scum to do it just for some WIFOM gambit when they could do literally anything else with a higher chance of success in getting their win con. Crumbing VT does nothing to get there except for some vague possibility of getting people to back off after a shouting match, whereas doing something else (e.g. claiming Doctor/Cop right before getting lynched) would be a lot more successful at either (1) automatically stopping the lynch, or (2) outing a real PR. Scum would want to keep their options open for the latter, and not engage in a super-obvious crumb early in the game that would eliminate the latter as an option.

As for the second question, what I disbelieved about tojam's VT crumb was the fact that I crumbed VT right before and people backed off. So the fact that tojam would subsequently crumb VT so immediately after that was very survivalistic. I didn't believe that for a second. It probably was survivalistic in any case, and such behaviour was more likely to come from scum than town.

The whole first paragraph is a bucket of WIFOM. Were you coached on making that crumb because it would not be good scum play?

The second paragraph makes no sense from a Town perspective. In the first paragraph you go out of your way to say “Yeah, scum would rather claim a powerful role”. But then you want to lynch Tojam for not breadcrumbing a powerful role. You are contradicting yourself. Either scum would be more likely to fake-claim a role to draw out a Town PR / save their ass or they are not. You can’t have honestly suggest as Town you should be able to argue both sides of the discussion are valid but only for your particular analysis of the circumstances.

And I not you dodged answering why you backed off Golden when he claimed VT. Because again – you’ve diluted your own argument. If you think Golden is Town for claiming VT under pressure why wasn’t Tojam’s slot for effectively doing the same thing? Cognitive Dissonance on display.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So let’s take a walk through Kirroha’s ISO to explain in some depth why I find her to be probable scum –

It starts small –

Pfffftt now won't it be funny if Radiant and Nino were really scumbuddies.

Is there daytalk in this game, by the way?

This the first line is fluff. But the second on a gut level is scum making a “Hey, I’m not informed because I don’t know if there is Daytalk” play. Because it is clearly stated in the OP that Daytalk is enabled. Trying too hard to appear uniformed.

Then we have these posts spread apart but tangentially related –

Scumclaims everywhere! This game is funny. Going to wait till more people confirm, or we're not getting much information with this so far.

I'm wracking my head right now wondering just what kind of pro-town motive can there be to BBT 'claiming scum' this early in the game. I'm not putting him at L-1 yet though, in case a new player comes in and random hammers. We need more input.

So at 54 Kirroha acknowledges that multiple people have claimed scum (including BBT and Radiant). And calls if funny.

Yet 21 posts later she’s wracking her head trying to determine the pro-town motivations for BBT. Doesn’t wrack her brain about everyone elses. Because she’s not actually worried about the issue but wants to position herself credibly to say “eh, I didn’t vote for BBT” if his lynch does get pushed through.

Furthermore the better question would have been “What would be the scum motivation for an RVS claim of scum” to which the answer is “None” making it a null-tell.

Kirroha/BBT are my primary scumreads atm.

On the basis that I asked questions about BBT? I'm feeling uncomfortable about his suggestion of Nino as a possible policy lynch, so I would be more than happy to vote him if he wasn't already at L-2. I'm curious as to whether Nino considers the same suggestion a scumtell, because that would reaffirm what I'm feeling from his post (i.e. trying to get a soft wagon started on Nino on the basis of 'policy'). Nino had 2 votes on her at that point, so I'm not buying BBT's implied "a wagon isn't going to start on you anyway" excuse.

Can't get much of a read on anyone else yet. I like Nino, though.

This is the post that in my initial read through that triggered my read on Kirroha. Nothing in this post suggests that she specifically finds BBT scummy. If fact she questions whether Nino (and is fishing for others opinion IMO) whether the policy lync h call is actually scummy. Yet she would be “happy” to vote for him except he is at L-2?

Why would she be happy to vote for someone she doesn’t even directly find scummy herself? Especially if she thinks it is too early for a lynch. This again is in my mind a positioning post – shoring up her doubt of BBT’s scumminess but leaving the path open to hop on that train if she fishes positive responses from others on the Policy Lynch issue.

Not feeling good about BBT but the fact that his wagon moved so fast worries me. There must be scum on that wagon for it to progress as fast as it did.

I need to sleep as well.

This more referential – for reference below is the MOD vote-count as it stood when Kirroha makes the “scum must be on the wagon” comment.

Vote Count 1.2

BlueBloodedToffee

(5)

: Raskolnikov, implosion, RadiantCowbells, Ninomasaki, I Am Innocent

(L-2)

So if she’s Town who actually believes this she thinks at least one of Rask, Implosion, Radiant, Nino or IamI is scum. This is more for you to notice who she doesn’t push / vote down the line. To my gut this is scum who knows a partners is on that early wagon and is positioning for Town cred if said partner or partners ever flip.

Sure enough her first post after this scum on wagon speculation is –

5 votes on me already? Not cool man, especially with the new confirmees jumping in without reason.

VOTE: kirroha

Syndesis explain.

Also consistent with this is the way she doubtcasts those on BBT's wagon.

Good job with the misrepresentation. That was an RVS joke vote, and it was on someone on

Nino's

wagon, not BBT's.

The ones who are sheeping Radiant and jumping from BBT to me right away are all not looking good, but looking even scummier are those who hopped in and voted me for no reason.

VOTE: ink for the blatant misrepresentation of my post. That's scummy as hell.

Gonna look back a bit more in the meantime, and off to work.

xiang'cao'nong'min

Firstly note she doesn’t question Radiant’s vote on her which was just as unexplained as Syndesis’s was. Second she has completely forgotten that she thinks scum was on the wagon and goes off attacking Ink who correctly pointed out that she has been casting doubt on BBT’s wagon.

So, kirroha is scum and BBT is town?

Oh look! I found BBT's scumbuddy.

Oh look now suddenly BBT is scum and has a buddy. Reminder – two posts ago she was worried that BBT’s wagon was scum driven and now suddenly he’s scum. No posts about why BBT is scum. Just that he is. Not a chain of posts that says Kirroha is actually scum-hunting.

In fact, the fact that BBT's wagon shifted so quickly elsewhere all of a sudden makes me think that there was scum on his wagon (and now on mine). First distance, then shift targets to a mislynch. This is if BBT is scum.

So once again claims scum is was on BBT’s wagon (but distancing) but now they’ve moved to her.

Vote Count 1.4
kirroha (5): RadiantCowbells, I Am Innocent, implosion, Syndesis, ink (L-2)

The common factors between the two wagons are Radiant, IamI and Implosion. We know that IamI is Town. Read through your ISO yourself and decide whether she pressures Radiant or Implosion at all. Hint – she doesn’t.

I’ll not copy 128 but it is such a wall of Appeal to Emotion that in my read-through notes it solidified my thoughts as follows “Oh, woe is me I suck at this game”. Also in 128 she votes outside of Radiant or Implosion while looking for the “scum pushing my lynch”.

I've crumbed my role early in the game but I'm not claiming until someone explains to me how I'm scummy when I'm pretty much one of the only ones trying to actually find scum. Jesus Christ.

Note – she actually didn’t crumb her role until 106 after she had already started picking up votes. Which is a mere 31 posts before this. Hardly “early in the game”.

For the mid-part of Day 1 after the pressure comes off her she pretty much parks her vote on Shortcut and directs most of her supposed scum-hunting on that slot. This is important to note for Day 2. Still not attention given to any of the three potential scum she mentioned earlier (Implosion, IamI and Radiant). In fact here are some examples of how she interacts with them Day 1 –

PEdit: (w.r.t. implosions post)
implosion I can spend an hour explaining why the heck a very badly made VT crumb+claim would make no sense coming from scum at this point in time, but I don't see the point of that right now. I think you're definitely tunneling, possibly moreso since you seem to think VTs are disposable. But just to reiterate how your theory about me being scum who just cleverly engineered this whole game doesn't make any sense:
-> Your entire theory is based on the fact that I failed to see how obvious my crumb was, which would not have happened as scum wherein I obviously would have put the crumb before my scumbuddies to check how obvious it is;
-> Your entire theory is also based on the fact that I claimed VT because it's the 'best claim to hide myself within a sea of townies' and save my own skin, when such a claim would have fallen apart at the merest Cop/Gunsmith check. If that was my purpose I'd have claimed Miller or Macho Townie w/ gun or something, or even Cop. VT makes no sense as a claim at this point in time, not at all tactically, and if I had scumbuddies they would have told me that.
-> Surely if I was smart enough to do all this convoluted shit I'll have been able to avoid being scumread in the first place?

Responding to a IamI request –

I didn't have any kind of read on Killthestory, but I get what you mean that his swap from scum!Kirroha to VI!Kirroha was way sudden and I also see no real basis for it. But I still did kind of find his attempts at getting people to pitch in quite genuine. Furthermore, I'm not sure why scum!Kill would want to pick a fight with an Ink/Innocent duo because I can't see what he can potentially get out of it. So I am still not sure about what I'm feeling about his slot. Yet I think at this point I'm damn well convinced that Shortcut is scum and that if Kill is scum too, he'll be scumbuddies with Shortcut.

Innocent, I still don't quite see what's so scummy about Kill. I know you have a case on him but I just can't seem to understand it. As far as I know, he scumread me then suddenly changed it to a VI read without any explanation, which is pretty darn scummy, but apart from that he's seemed relatively townish to me in his behaviour (demanding activity, etc), so I would really like it if you can explain to me what is it I'm not seeing. I will be happy to jump on the wagon with you if I can be convinced of your reads.

Maybe it's because I've stepped away from this game for a while, but I don't feel as assertive about my reads as I originally was. Like even the Shortcut slot is starting to make me feel uncertain. Damnit. If TaishoGal does not show up in the next 1-2 days though, I want to lynch her pronto.

Okay Radiant that's the fourth vote you've put on BBT today. So do you really see BBT as scum or is this just one of those flirting sessions that inevitably occurs whenever you and BBT are in a game together?

None of these posts are treating said prime scum suspects as if they were scum.

And I’d like to draw attention once again to the following theme Kirroha has been floating –

I find it kind of strange that even though generally quite a lot of people seem to agree that Shortcut might be a viable lynch today, it's so hard to form a wagon on him. On the other hand, wagons on BBT and me happened so quickly it's ridiculous. That alone is making me even more inclined to think Short is scum.

Essentially, if a lynch happens way too fast on D1, it's probably town, or scum being bussed. Either way we're playing into scum hands. That's making me iffy about lynching BBT.

So once again she re-iterates that those two early fast wagons (BBT and herself) were scum driven. And now that she dropped her “Ink and BBT are buddies” theme BBT is Town again. Yet as shown above she truly doesn’t believe this as she doesn’t pay any attention to those who would qualify as possible scum driving her and BBT.

Also note that scum bussing a buddy to lynch would be playing into scum’s hands per that post? Lol whut?

Day One ends with Kirroha having pushed the Shortcut / Golden slot as obvious scum for the bulk of the day. Golden claims VT and suddenly Kirroha backs off saying “Oh that was fast, must be Town”. I’ve already addressed that an immediate back-off from the slot for a VT claim is completely inconsistent with Kirroha’s stances around her crumb and implosion’s crumb. On a gut level I don’t see this a Town play.

It also ends without Kirroha having questions or scum-hunted IamI, Radiant or implosion. In fact when IamI is under pressure and self-votes to L-1 we get the following:

IAI you're not getting lynched today. Please get your vote on someone else and I'll follow you.

Why would Town Kirroha think this? He as I’ve pointed out fits the profile for scum who pushed both early wagons she claimed are scum driven. Yet no questions or hunting of IamI. And when IamI is primed for lynch she actively argues against it.

RC town. Nino town.

I'm going back to my shortcut read because heck. VOTE: Golden Robster

Also beeboy, your predecessor claimed a PR before he vanished. Do you stick by that?

So the BBT slot has been shot overnight. And flipped Town. Her conclusion that Radiant is Town makes no sense from a Town perspective. Town (as happened early Day 2) should suspect Radiant.

VOTE: beeboy

The more I think about it the less tojam's 'crumb' made sense.

If I were town PR I would never point out THIS. IS. A. CRUMB!!!! ever. It's like inviting a nightkill. And you know who isn't afraid of nightkills?

More ammo in the “Kirroha’s stances are scummy as heck surrounding this issue” armory. Again – beeboy’s slot did the same thing her slot did. And yet beeboy is scummy for it from whatever angle she comes at it.

Town: Rubixxx, RC, Nino
Lean Town: implosion, ink, IAI
????????: Golden Robster, Rasko, Syndesis
Scum: Beeboy

In no particular order. May change.

Reminder – Kirroha should be suspect of both Radiant and implosion for those early wagon pushes if she was actually scum-hunting the many times she floated that theory. Yet both are not in her danger categories of scum or ?????.

After this point we get a slew of proddodging and complete lack of scum-hunting from the slot. On a gut level this feels like scum who feels comfortably in control the game and doesn’t feel the need to phone in the faking. As shown in this post –

Intent to hammer lolilol

Claim robsters

“Look at me I can be all casual and lol. Meanwhile I forgot I already had a pretty solid stance

[MagnaofIllusion]

I believe that MOI has to be lynched before endgame because his reads are so bad and he's super invested in them.

Whether he's scum is academic frankly.

We could just lynch you instead if that's the standard. Because you were super-invested in that terrible BBT push Day 1 and we all see how that turned out. I appreciate that you can't actually justify things other than constant rhetoric so you keep going to the well.

I'll be happy to 1v1 you on this issue if you'd like. Game?

[MagnaofIllusion]

What? I don't even get what you're saying, Magna. I thought I was pretty clear explaining that:

1. I thought my crumb was indecipherable, but it actually wasnt,
2. That was a stupid thing to do and I get it, I guess,
3. What else do you want me to say?

Who the hell would coach me to mess up this badly? Explain how this even benefits scum?

I'll make it clear to you Kirroha - as I've highlighted in your ISO your stances regarding whether claiming VT or not are completely inconsistent and self-contradictory on multiple occasions. You don't have a stance you believe in. Your justification sways to whatever direction you need it to go for your current argument as opposed to being driven by logic. In short - you aren't looking for scum you are looking for whatever is most expidient to either save your neck or mislynch Town.

The last part is clearly not relevant - no-one coached you up to screw up. You did that all on your own. It doesn't benefit scum (as I feel you are pretty scummy) but as always scum don't play optimally.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The last part is clearly not relevant - no-one coached you up to screw up. You did that all on your own. It doesn't benefit scum (as I feel you are pretty scummy) but as always scum don't play optimally.

EBWOP - the last line should read "as always scum don't

necessarily

play optimally"

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's more like "it'll be great if I was a confirmed town for that"

tbh, I don't think the claim is not that far-fetched because the JoaT had a GS and fishing for doctor when you have GS makes sense since for some reason vig-gs-scumdoc tend to be meta these days.

1. Ok putting aside that you were just wanting to be confirmed - who are your scum-reads and why?

2. You aren't focusing on the important points of why I find it farfetched. He's presenting a JOAT with two strong investigation powers and a convenient defense power. I don't care about the Vig-GS-Scumdoc meta per-se ... can you find me meta that shows JOATs that actually have double strong investigation powers? I'm not poring through games myself but that particular set of JOAT powers doesn't seem very logically put together.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You don't need to convince me that I'm scum, because I'm not. So I'm not going to bother reading through all that garbage.

If you think I am scum who screwed up then that's what you chose to believe in. The only thing that I can prove to you is that what I did would have been terrible for scum if I were scum, and if you think I am stupid enough to do that as scum regardless then well that's your call.

@Everyone who is not MOI: So, should we try to get a flip on Syn? I'm kind of just sticking to Rask's PoE call at this point.

Here's a hint - I'm not trying to convince you that you are scum. I'm responding to both GIF and Implosion who specifically asked me for my case on you.

Your attempt to portray my posts as garbage because they highlight your scumminess and thus your "I'm not engaging" are cute.

Is Rask your scum-buddy and that's why you like his POE so much?

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: MagnaOfIllusions

This one has to be scum. -_-"

Care to elaborate? I'd really like to see if there is any reasoning to this other than "I'm calling Radiant scum".

[MagnaofIllusion]

1. I don't play that way.
Before the activity died down due to rubix replace out, my read was something like RC/GR/Nino town, kirroha townish, waffling on your slot, and Rask needing to eat a vigshot.

I did want implosion dead but it was more from PoE and him being underwhelming, but being underwhelming part is something I understand completely given the activity here.

Right now? Whatever clear that implosion got makes him far away from being scum. I haven't read your giant posts yet and prob won't have time to until tonight or tomorrow morning.

So really you don't have a single solid scum read? At all?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI seems town, yet everyone he's pushing has pinged me town at one point or another??

Synd I'd like you to do an take a look at Radiant's ISO. Really read it. Put aside his claim and whatever meta you would be using to judge. Do that and tell me where you see Town play.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm town you twit.

And you're scumreading all my townreads.

I believe that if I don't lynch you, on day 5 after I have been night killed you will either lead lynches on town or force yourself to be lynched.

Sorry but you need to die.

I'll translate for everyone - "Stop not being able to be fooled with my reputation and seeing me for the alignment I am".

I'm glad you acknowledge that you know I'm not scum. The "I'm worried about the future" is empty. Proposing someone should be lynched for a hypothetical scenario that can't be proven over someone who is actual scum is pure Pro-Scum play.

Sorry I've rocked the easy cruise to victory as scum by replacing in. Well, I'm not really sorry but I do understand your frustartion.

[MagnaofIllusion]

lol.
this is why you have to be lynched.
you are clearly incapable of reevaluating things, or you're scum who knows that your wincon is best served by acting in that way.

What exactly should I re-evaluate again? I've been in the game for a whopping 48 hours. I've made my reads and posted my info. Since the thread is mostly dead I don't have a bunch of info to go on that makes me re-evaluate.

Oh - now I'm back to being scum as I've called out your Pro-Scum stance for why you want me lynched.

I need to review the ISO to see if you were ever in a position to hammer the Golden slot. Because your sudden " I think these two are scum" stance on Golden and Synd doesn't seem to match well in what I recollect are your positions prior to being put back under scrutiny.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's not true

I'd say his interest in Gold (and Synd for the most part) is pretty damn newfound. But why defending him Rask?

Radiant did not vote for Golden either Day 1 or Day 2

Day 1 –

Nino (1) – Post 7 RVS
BBT (4) – Posts 35, 160, 514, 618
Kirroha (1) – Post 77
Implosion (1) – Post 405
Ink (1) – Post 551

Day 2 –

Syndesis (1) – 1096
Beeboy (1) – 1137
Implosion (2) – 1216, 1259

Of the two he only placed a single vote between them the first 2 days. That was his "Synd" is role-fishing vote. Which made because of his supposed crumb that he doesn't call a crumb because it would get him shot. Yet if Synd really picked up on it why would scum-Synd just not shoot him?

And he certainly had the chance to lynch the Golden slot Day 1 -

Vote Count 1.12
TaishoGal (6): kirroham, implosion, NinoMasaki, Killthestory, Syndesis, BlueBloodedToffee (L-1)

Taisho flashwagon is awful, BBT needs rope.

He instead spent most of the time pointless trying to rally a lynch on a clearly Town BBT.

Synd, Imp, Ink, Rubixx, anyone on the Taisho wagon.

Let's get dis done?

Note the lovely reads here on two confirmed Town

When was I white knighting Kill ever? She's a scumread.

I'm more interested in BBT at this time though.

Early Day 2 here is his analysis of Golden in back to back ISO Posts

Grecoroman is scum.

Robster is lynchbait.

That said, even I am not townreading him at this point. Will do a focused reread on him.

So which is it? Note the transition from staunchly defending against the slot Day 1 to Day 2 stepping into the "Ehhh" zone. Scum do need to leave openings to vote Town. And where’d that focused re-read happen?

Now Day 3 he transitions fully into voting Golden (who probably was the easiest target given he had been run to L-1 two different days) until I replaced in and threw a monkey-wrench into his plans.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, you need to get your ego in check.

You did not caught me. you are not the calibre of player who would have caught me here if I was scum.

Just stop. I am conftown for a reason.

It's funny that you are telling someone else to keep their ego in check. Really good for brightening my day with a hearty chuckle.

Again note the tone of this post - I can't have caught him. I'm not good enough to catch him.

The underlying assumption betrayed by his post - he knows I'm not scum because scum wouldn't be catching him they'd be mislynching him if he was Town.

But I've posted enough on Radiant and Kir for the moment. I need to start to dive into other ISOs looking for who else is scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm probably done for today .... but since clearly sitting my vote on Radiant isn't going to be productive. He can be revisited as necessry.

VOTE: Kiro

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I’ll be starting my review of Golden, Synd and Rask’s ISOs. Implosion I had a Town read during my read-through so I don’t see and need to review him. GIF would be the last but I don’t think I’ll have sufficient time to do so until Monday at the earliest for her. I will be V/LA after about 2pm EDT today until Monday for my usual weekend duties.

I’m eagerly anticipating feedback from both GIF and Implosion on the full case on Kiro that they requested.

@Golden re: 1711 – if my case was so solid why aren’t you voting for Kiro?

I do not like MOI because kirroha is obviously town and if you fail to see that then you are either completely confused or you are scum trying to get an easy mislynch on someone less active.

I want to lynch Golden Robster now that I think of it. He was completely townreading Kirroha, probably because he thought nobody would be interested in lynching her, but now that MagnaOfIllusions wants to vote Kirroha he is suddenly putting her as a scumlean.

If you’d like to explain where my analysis of Kiro that I posted is flawed in your eyes please go ahead. But understand saying empty fluff like “kirroha is obviously town” is not helpful. On a gut level I’m guessing this is the case for you because Kiro white-knighted for you over the non-existent Policy Lynch RVS talk and you’ve never bothered to re-evaluate.

The second point looks pretty salient. When I review Golden’s ISO I will be taking a look at his reads progressions.

Radiant has solidified as a townread for me. 1682 meta.

I'm not scum. And I don't think you are scum.

GM thought we were scumbuds in 1682. She was scum.

That makes me uncomfortable with MOI. But I really liked Rubixxx. Meh.

Lynch Syndesis?

These two posts lead me to the following conclusion – if only one of Kiro or Radiant is scum then my money is on Kiro.

1. Meta read from a single game presented as valid when it is clear that it is not given the fluid nature of meta.
2. Intense buddying by Kiro to Radiant – scum under fire looking for a lifeline?
3. Note Kiro still is ignoring her “scum were pushing those lynches” stance she used Day 1 and never, ever returned to.

I’d love to see an actual case on Syndesis from Kirroh at this point. Some actual reasoning. I'll also be reviewing 1682 because all her "I have only played 4 games and the latest was in 2014 so I suck" AtE Day 1 feels hollow to me given how she is talking about this meta game now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So the fact that Golden, Rask, Radiant and Kirroha all have Synd as a top suspect makes her ISO review top priority.

Stylistically Syndesis trips every one of my inherent biases about players with minimalist contributions during games. So this is going to be a really tough ISO read.

At 172 she makes an observation about Kiro in my read-through regarding her “BBT is scum because claiming scum has no Pro-Town motivation”. And her vote is parked on Kiro at that moment.

By post 309 I like that she has interactions almost all the playerbase. Not any significant inquiry but at least some level of comment.

441 read of Implosion is similar to mine at that stage. +Town read

VOTE: Raskolnikov

I think my problem with this game is that everyone looks so scummy

Thank goodness syndesis. I'm glad to hear you are town this game.

This exchange will need further review in my Rask ISO. Because this screams of appeasement on Rask’s part but I need to see how she developed her “Syn is scum” stance from here.

467 is another good observation about Rask.

Dislike the jump to Taish at 553 simply because Synd has had plenty of salient points and questions to other players and this movement comes sort of from left-field.

630 is a bit of AtE but it comes from a Town point of view in my mind.

Hate hate hate with a passion the IamI vote at 848.

From 1124 I like that she’s picked up on Kiro’s inherent self-contradiction related to her and Beeboy’s slot’s crumbs.

Dislike her reads lists in the late 1200s to 1300s that basically on have one or two player as scum (ink or Beeboy, one of whom has already flipped Town).

Don’t understand the Golden Rooster vote in 1411 when Rask is more of a scum-read than Golden and she’s moving the vote from Rask.

1513 – interesting set of reads (GR, Kiro and Ras as possible team).

Her response in 1587 to Golden’s case for the most part makes sense. I see some weak points or what I would consider not valid responses but on the whole I think it rings true from a Town response point.

Dislike her, on Day 3, not being willing to put in the effort to make a case on Golden if she feels he is scum with the excuse “He’ll just call me scum anyway”. Cases aren’t for the people you are making them for – they are to convince the rest of the players you are correct in your suspicion.

Conclusion – I few questionable posts. Otherwise I don’t see any obvious or glaring scum motivated play. Not going to support this lynch today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm way too lazy for this.

Just to clarify though, this is my first game since 2014. There was only meta with RC because I signed up for a newbie game after this game began, and that game ended before this one (given the delays that this game went through).

I'm always town, so it's easy to make comparisons.

Nope, not flying. Meta from a single game isn't either useful or believable. And where's that Syn case? Being too lazy isn't an excuse I can buy if you were Town. Now from scum frustrated with having to make up a case I can understand that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Rask ISO read –

Once again the sparse, low content many posts game-play style is going to make this painful.

In 307 responds to Syn that she was scum-reading Kiro’s slot in 127. But kept her RVS vote on BBT despite the subsequently claimed scum-read and then asked Kiro to help in voting BBT at 236. +Scum points.

314’s explanation that “Eh, I was waiting for vote someone I saw scummy or just wanting to hammer” with a touch of AtE is also suspect.

418 is first “Synd is Town” post. I know more are coming from Synd’s ISO.

451 – PoEing the game Day 1 400ish posts is something that stood out to me on my initial read –

Here’s her pool stated then:

I'm POEing this game.

#1 is obvscum. #2 is probably TJ. Scum #3 is within a small group that's going to be narrowed dramatically when BBT actually comes alive.

So pick #2 was Town and there is no real indication who #1 or who consists of the pool in #3 in the immediate ISO surrounding this. Unless it comes back later my gut pings this as from scum.

100ish posts later we get –

I would like to lynch within {SBslot, TJ, IAI, BBT} today.

So PoE leads to three Town and the slot that now is her good friend Rooster?

588 – 600 reads as classic scum shade throwing on BBT who we now know is Town.

I think having Ink IAI and TJ as your townreads is absurd. I'm 100% there's at least 1 scum in here.

So two Town and GIF’s slot. Which we know from Day 3 isn’t in her new PoE list. And then at 643 instead of following up with a vote in her pool of scum she votes BBTown again.

By post 690 ish I’m ready to commit that I’m seeing no scum-hunting from this slot. Just random questions that she never follows up on and PoE lists that seem to be just constructed to look busy.

Lot of scummy people in this game. I think Rasko and TG are outside choices though.

Much prefer one of KTS, RC, implosion or Syn.

what happened to this

The cognitive dissonance here is strong. She’s dinging BBT for not following up on a group of players to lynch. But she herself never follows up on her pools and just has a lazy vote dropped on Town.

Ok so in isolation I would scumread KTS's serious posts for storytelling (very constructed statements and posts which look sort of planned-out) and for constantly talking about the general case about what scum theoretically would or should do when he's explaining his reads. But he's pretty similar in the other game I looked at him in (there was a third but it was barely anything) so its like whatever.

He put in a ton of effort early/midgame and I liked that. What happened midgame was people mostly ignored both him and his reads for Kirroha, SB and then Rubixxx. I think scum would be happy with this situation as they're safe from lynch and in a good position if the town's likely to ML. But he became apathetic. I don't know if it's genuine or not but I'm not sure why scum would choose to fake that in this situation rather that continuing as they were doing. I guess he could technically be bored scum. Still I have him townlean from earlier and I'd rather lynch in my 4.

If “storytelling” is a scum-tell then this post is a self-scum claim. Spends two paragraphs putting together a narrative that leads to no definite conclusion on Kill’s slot. Basically says “Could be scum but I have a Town lean”. And then keeps vote parked on BBTown.

I guess bbt wagon isn't viable

VOTE: TaishoGal L-1

Actually puts Golden’s slot at L-1 which is consistent with lynching in her group of 4. Changes that at 807 back to BBT after Kiro unvotes Golden.

@GR that list wasn't my reads it was BBT's (go back and read the context).

Looking forward to seeing your push today

p-edit T_T

This is an odd post to come from Town who wants to lynch the player who clearly made a mistake in an attack on her. Because if one of my suspects who I considered scum immediately started incorrectly attributing play to me I don’t think my response would be “Oh, read more carefully”.

No, I'm sad we have so many claims day 1

VOTE: IamInnocent l-2

I think this is the only thing we can do in time

These are back to back posts. The first reads as absolute fake-Town concern when her next post is to push a wagon on an unclaimed player.

IAI I think you're town now but you're wrong about me. If you intend to trade your life 1 for 1 like this we'll actually just straight up lose the game.

I don't know if we have the votes to avoid no-lynch at this point :/

Oh look, some more AtE as IamI calls Rask out for her vote on him.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=63637 relevant

This is interesting as it is a link to what I assume was a completed game at that point with Radiant winning as scum. No followup anywhere in the immediate ISO on what this means.

IaI's deathtunnel is technically more AI than RC's as RC does it a fair amount as both alignments (disclaimer, I don't know IaI meta). I was scumreading IaI yesterday but his play around deadline and pretty much offering himself as a lynch when he really didn't have to makes him near-conf town to me.

I'll get more into this game in ~2 days.

This is interesting in context of the prior post – this seems to be meta defending Radiant. But posting a link of a closed game with Radiant scum doesn’t appear to help support that stance.

GR/Implosion?

So once again Golden is scum on day 2. No sign of a vote for Golden. In fact her vote is stacked on Beeboy (Town) when this post is made.

Can everybody who's townreading gr beyond a weak lean please explain to me why so I can see if I missed/ didn't see it, or if I just disagree. Thanks.

At this stage if Golden is scum I’d link Rask pretty conclusively to the slot. Lots of soft suspicion thrown up to this point with little tangible action to support it. Now she makes an appeal that would allow her to transition to a “GR is not scum” stance if she can get someone to support it. But she drops it when Radiant immediately says that Golden is scum.

Idk I feel fairly confident in my syndesis townread after the last game we had.

I don't know if I'd agree with you're theory she's scum bussing ink when tj/beeboy slot is an easy lynch (all 3 of us are down for) plus rc is/was another viable counter.

@mod VC pls

Oh so day 2 and Synd is still a fairly confident Townread for Rask. Let’s see how it develops into Day 3.

So Day 3 starts and we get the following –

OTE: implosion

let's lynch your partner today

yes, let's lynch your other partner nino

lets help rc bus nino
VOTE: nino

So Rask wants to lynch Nino. Who all but claimed 1-shot Vig in thread. Nino comes in, claims her role and immediately votes Rask. Rask’s reaction?

UNVOTE:
I forgot about that

Pretty strong sign (along with the completely disappated Golden as scum read) she’s not actually scum-hunting.

Ras

Raskolnikov

why are you voting Rubixxx

will answer when he gets here or gets replaced

Going to sleep, promise to tryhard this when I wake up. If I dont vote me

Curious if this explanation ever came. But note this is Day 3 and how she is interacting with Synd. That’s “Hey Townread, I’ll do better I promise”.

At 1450 we get a return to Golden as scum with by putting him at L-1. States in 1451 “Of course I want to lynch Rubixxx”. Weak hop while not pushing the slot at all leads to another strong tie with Golden.
This is the Golden she is arguing against lynch later this day because he is her friend.

Eh fuck it
VOTE: Golden

Actually, double-fuck it.
VOTE: Syndesis

This has EXTREME utility.

And here is the point where Golden becomes non-voteable and Synd, who she hasn’t even address since last calling her Town, is suddenly lynchable.

It's not useful for why GiF is saying it's useful though. The PR claim will 99% die tonight unless its commuter or something; I'd like it just to help with the lynch choice today.

This is interesting simply from the standpoint it exactly predicts the results of mass-claim before it happens. Possible slip from Mafia QT? Unsure at this stage.

1536 – Second time Rask has mentioned a bus in context with Golden.

Well have to cut off there but at this stage I’d put Rask in my pool of lynches I vote for today. Prefer Kiro for but I can see Rask as a Kiro possible partner.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI you are scum or bad.

either way, please be quiet.

No, thanks.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The thing is
if you lynch within the high percentage scum not only do you probably get a scum but that flip also helps being confident in the joat claim
if rc was scum lying and another scum is in his innos then the chance for the poe lynch being scum is actually low so it actually flipping scum would for the most part stop that narrative

if you mislynch me and then half of you go into lylo still unsure about your view on it the game's essentially already lost (whatever the decision town has to be unified/all in agreement) because my flip does nothing to verify or discredit it

I wasn't going to say this until tomorrow since there was like 0% chance of me dying as opposed to someone like nino, and in general it's counter productive to show doubt in something when you want other people to vote with it,
but yeah have fun.

The most important point that this post fails to factor is this - if everyone who isn't Rask uses the exact same PoE as her then she is the "High Percentage Scum" for them. And thus a good lynch for the reasoning above for everyone but her. So I'm unsure why fear of not solidifying Radiant's claims should factor into someone's who isn't Rask's decision on whether to vote for Rask today or not.

Any thoughts on this Rask?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I managed to read the kirroha case.

But though, what would be her scumotivation of crumbing a VT when pressured?

WIFOM. It's the only possible motivation - the play that says "Scum would never do this and I did it so I can't be scum" is the only motivation that makes sense. The fact that the narrative has been her hammering "Why would I do that as scum" pretty strongly supports this.

First I'd ask - what's her Town motivation to crumbing VT?

Second I'll ask - this is the only thing you have to say about the entire case? I

Third I'll ask - what do you think of her claiming the play from her slot is Town but the Tojam slot doing essentially the exact same thing was a scum-play?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@GIF – Something occurred to me over the weekend. Why do you keep addressing Rask as Vig-bait? Have you just not bothered to read the thread where on multiple occasions Nino has claimed 1-shot Vig? Because you act as if a Vig on Rask could be forthcoming and it isn’t by all accounts.

you keep making excuses preemptively for being wrong about your reads
you're doubtcasting everything
you're pushing on every town aligned player and defending every scum aligned player

just stop.

Just have to say once again that this isn’t a post that a Town player makes to someone they think are likely scum and one of the best lynch options for today.

1. Hypocrisy galore regarding making excuses about being wrong on reads when Radiant has already built in excuses as to why I would not flip scum if lynched.
2. Flat out incorrect statement that being able to acknowledge you are not 100% correct is a Scum-tell. Only scum can be 100% sure of alignments in the game as they have the inside information. Oh look, that’s here from Radiant also.
3. Tone addresses Implosion as Town who is wrong (“Just stop”) as opposed to scum. Because it’s scum’s job to push through mislynches. Like Radiant tried but failed on BBT.

Well yeah, obviously you guys aren't in the same position and can't play as I do from my perspective, but I can't really do anything other than explain my own actions and thoughts and let you judge for yourself. To convince you guys using logic that I'm not using myself doesn't make that much sense to me, it's similar to asking a cop to explain his inno/guilty because you don't know he's actually that role.

See that’s just it – applying your own set of conclusions to any other player results in you being “High Probability Scum” and thus in the pool of logical lynches for the day. I disagree with your logic on that for several reasons but I wanted to see if you would acknowledge that your post isn’t driven by logic that makes sense to anyone other than you. You don’t.

Nope. It's always town to crumb your role asap so you can prove yourself later when players dwindle.

My only problem was that I failed to crumb it properly.

MOI you act like WIFOM is some magical thing that all scum aspire towards. No it's not, especially when like in this case it makes no strategic sense. Come on you can't be that misguided.

Nope. It isn’t almost ever Town to breadcrumb a VT role. For a large number of reasons. Now since you are my absolute number 1 scum target I’m not going to both to list them off because I don’t believe you actually believe that.

And the second part is of course non-sense. Scum most importantly aspire to playing as similar to Town as possible given their inherent lack of ability to honestly scumhunt (in non-Multiball games). However you didn’t and got stuck flailing with a play that has no Pro-Town motivation and leaning on WIFOM and AtE as defense.

The degree to which MoI is misrepping RC in 1706 is confounding.

@MoI (1733): The reason I jumped off Ras in 422 is that I thought they were a PR. Additionally - if I thought there was anyone who would have needed the case, I would have made it, but to me GR is so obvscum that it didn't seem necessary.

If you’d be so kind as to show any way I’m misrepping Radiant I’d love to see that. I don’t expect you will because … effort .. but it would be nice.

A large number of players are calling you obv-scum without presenting but a bare minimum of reasoning for why (if that). Should everyone just lynch you without presented cases?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I PMed our replacement Mod on Saturday morning and requested a Vote-count as VCs coming at least once every two days is not what I consider a reasonable request. That PM has yet to be read. So I’ve PMed the listmod explaining we might have a second flaked Mod. Just an FYI.

Don't see anything that makes implosion scum here.

I can get behind an implosion wagon tomorrow; don't see scum!rask as strongly I did but I do see scum!syndesis here.

So let me get this straight – nothing Radiant says makes you see Implosion scum. But you’d happily lynch Implosion tomorrow? Can you point me to where you show why you read Implosion as scum? And why, if he was scum, wouldn’t you get behind his lynch today?

The first thing, which technically speaking is not actually a misrep but more a convoluted train of logic, is that you're pushing RC on the grounds of him...not voting his D3 scumreads on D1/2? That's the impression I get.

The point is that his read on Golden hasn’t developed in any meaningful way. Day 1 and Day 2 there was little to show how he transitioned to that read. Yes, I understand reads do change. But there is no thread evidence to point to why and the situation very much reads to me as possibly a case of scum-Radiant simply picking out what he perceives to be the easiest lynches for his scum-reads. Golden was under fire Day 1 and Day 2 … being put at L-1 both days. You can’t sell me that suddenly he’s a hard target. Likewise scum Radiant has quasi-boxed himself in on GIF and Implosion (but not completely since he keeps throwing Godfather and Doctor Mafia speculation around to leave a trap-door for the future) so suddenly you are a great suspect. And I only became scum after I’ve called him scum. Classic OMGUS.

I don’t see Town scum-hunting personally.

Not sure what you mean? (I thought you were implying that the reads were "lovely" because they were wrong but that doesn't make sense.)

Maybe I should have been more clear because you mis-attributed my comment to the quotes. Here is what I said was “lovely” reads –

When was I white knighting Kill ever? She's a scumread.

I'm more interested in BBT at this time though.

Radiant’s addressed several players as having terrible reads and suggested they should not talk or just follow him. But his reads so far this game have also been bad. BBT was a terrible push and here Kill is a scum-read (which he never did any scum-hunting on BTW). Both flipped Town Night 1. So it is self-contradictory for him to suggest others are terrible and shouldn’t be listened to because they would “ruin Town” or “are scum”.

Could that be ego-out-of-control bad play? Possible. Also possible it is scum trying to stifle dissenting voices in a game he felt was at one point easily in hand and now there is significant push-back in his ruling Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I said "I CAN get behind an implosion wagon" tomorrow, but not today. "I can get behind" does not mean that I'd happily lynch Implosion. If I saw a decent argument laid out, then maybe, but no, I don't see any great points from RC and his argument. Therefore I do not want to lynch him today.

So you are leaving open the possibility you might vote for someone in the future if you see arguments laid out to indicate they are scum. But you don't see them currently.

Is there anyone this argument doesn't apply to in any Mafia game? What's the point of the original post?

Why you are responding - why don't you see Rask as scum as much now? Link me to / highlight what you found scummy about her before and why your stance is changing.

Chop chop

[MagnaofIllusion]

Syndesis (3): Golden Robster, Kirroha, Raskolnikov (L-2)

actually that kind of nixes GR-kirroha-Ras hmm.

I can see why you would say that but I’m not so sure I agree. Let’s look at the full-vote count –

Vote Count 3.3

Syndesis (3): Golden Robster, Kirroha, Raskolnikov (L-2)
Golden Robster (3): Syndesis, NinoMasaki, RadiantCowbells (L-2)
Kirroha (1): MagnaofIllusion(L-4)
Raskolnikov (1): Implosion(L-4)
Not Voting (1): GuyInFreezer

Let’s look objectively – those three can only vote for each other unless they all up and move to a different target. One such alternate wagon on me already failed today (which 2 of three participated in). Implosion is the only other “acceptable” target per Radiant. Do they risk moving there en-mass this close to deadline when it isn’t going to convince anyone outside of Radiant to also move IMO?

It is telling that Kirroha who previously had pushed Robster’s slot hard and is buddied up hard to Radiant hasn’t moved to one of Radiant’s preferred lynches.

It is also terrible that GuyinFreezer has a non-vote at this stage of the day and has pretty much done nothing since I replaced in.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Raskilnikov

Consolidating my vote here for the moment since there is no interest in a Kirroha wagon. Not sure why.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok Golden ... I'm probably going to hammer you before I leave work today. Just an FYI if you want to get in any last words or anything. Because while you are one of the lowest on my lynch totem poll currently No Lynch is bad.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well I waited as long as reasonable hoping to see something from GIF or Implosion. Nada.

VOTE: Golden

[MagnaofIllusion]

So Radiant was Town doing a stupid Town lying obvious fake-claim as opposed to Scum lying obvious fake-claim. Well at least with his flip we get very good information that helps to narrow down the possibilities.

We basically have 3 lynches to get the last 2 scum. Nino or whoever replaces into that slot is confirmed Town via mass claim. There is at max 1 scum in GIF / Implosion, with a possibility of zero. So today those three are obviously off the board as far as lynch goes. That leave myself, Syd, Kir and Rash as possible lyches. Clearly I’m not supporting a lynch on myself and after yesterday I don’t see Syn as a good choice personally. That leaves Kir or Rask in my book as far as who I will support today.

VOTE: Kirroha

She pretty much is displaying the classic Amished tell most of day one … aka noticing your partners is scummy for reasons no-one else picks up on.

Anyone who want to know why can look at my general case at 1672 but it would be just as easy to look through her ISO combined with all the components of the Robster slot. She begins as she is under pressure herself and votes for “scummy-vote hopping” and deflecting attention from Robster’s partners BBT (Town) and Synd. She doesn’t really push on the slot after dropping her vote there. Instead she tries to link Robster’s slot to others (example Kill’s slot at 386).

Also just noticed this bit which escaped me in my prior reads –

Okay, I am a little confused by all the reads flying here and there. So I'll just ask a simple question to everyone here: If you were a Compulsive Vigilante, who is the player that you will shoot tonight and why?

This is an absolutely odd question. Yet now that we have confirmation of Gunsmith and Nino’s limited shot Vig this make perfect sense as a member of a scum team fishing to see which partner might be the best protect Night 1.

But back to the Kirroha and Robster show –

It's near the end of the day. Shortcut was the only consistently scummy read I have so far. I'm not moving my vote without good reason. And most people only came on this wagon late anyway, because we're all under time pressure to get a lynch done - it was never a wagon that could be kept up for very long, which makes me more confident about this read. I'm not letting Taisho get away by just not posting.

Hi Golden Robster, welcome to the game and really sorry you have to replace in on such an imminent deadline. So your slot previously roleclaimed 2-shot Role Cop, do you confirm or deny that claim?

Why the fuck did my predecessor claim 2-shot role cop?



Claiming VT.

15 minute's delay isn't bad at all. I have to rethink my Shortcut/Taisho/Robster slot vote.

Will be happy to go on the Kill wagon at this point. Guys, what are your thoughts? Robster claimed VT.

How in the bloody hell is a VT claim a good reason to unvote her claimed only consistent scum read? The answer – it isn’t. Yet that’s exactly what Kirroha did 1 minute after the last post while transitioning to Kill (Town) and sublimating her read to Radiant.

Frankly the whole “15 minutes” point is absolute garbage anyway. Any more than 2 minutes is more than sufficient time for someone to ISO their predecessor and see if they actually made that claim. Not to mention since we know Mafia have enabled Daytalk so any claims made by scum are going to be clearly posted there.

I could go on but I think I’ve already posted more than enough given half of you are more or less admitting you aren’t bothering to read my post anyway.

--

Flip more-or-less clears kirroha though I guess I should doublecheck.

I noticed this double-check never came. Not surprised.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Personally I think Kirroha is the best chance for scum. Rask is the only other lynch I'll support today but I'd much much perfer Kirroha. Anyone who thinks she's somehow clear need to explain why in a sufficient level of detail.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOI, if several confirmed town people are absolutely sure that Kirroha is innocent (and all these confirmed town people just happened to have died) then bear in mind that you are probably wrong in scumreading her, and scum is keeping you alive just so you can mislynch her. Please stop being stubborn and see the truth. >_<"

Nino being confirmed Town frankly means bubkis on that front. I hate to be blunt but it's true. Confirmed Town certainly be just as wrong as living Town. Radiant was dead wrong on BBT. Instead of just sticking to your "I think Kirroha is Town" stance why don't you review my cases on her and tell me where I'm wrong and why. Because a flat out "I think she's Town" isn't helpful no matter how correct you think you are. Frankly Kirroha has buddied you hard this game (and she also did Radiant) and I think that's clouded your ability to read her.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Rasko and/or Syndesis is the scum.

VOTE: Syndesis

Why are you voting Syndesis then? I'd like some actual explanation from you on this front. Because if you believe Rask is scum then yesterday both scum Golden and scum Rask were pushing that slot hard. Had Radiant not decided to go away from Syn I don't think my stance would have stopped the Synd lynch. Do you realistically think both other scum would powerbus Synd when my slot was unpopular after my entrance?

Likewise if Rado is Town and Synd is scum why would Golden have gone to the mat bussing his partner when a Rasko lynch was also viable and had proponents (I would certainly have gone there over Synd)?

And you do know we have 2 scum left for sure, correct? Unless you are wanting to claim limited shot 3rd party which I don't think is your intention.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If you suspect me and syndesis as a team can we at least lynch him first because I don't really mind trading 1 for 1

Nah. If you two are a team I want you eating rope first for certain.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sir I don't want to be rude but there is literally nothing to say... >_<" You took every single possible quote and then tried to force-fit into a scum theory. Anyone can be force-fit into a scum theory if you try. What you didn't do is to not look at anyone else with the thought that Kirroha is town. I won't even argue with you because you had nothing to show, just a lot of words...

Translation - you didn't actually bother to read my cases. That's ok. You seem to be conflating confirmed Town with infallible. That will change with time I'm sure. Carry on and at least be active.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But the vt claim still feels town at a gut level. Like, 380 does not feel made up to me. I feel like that post would be very difficult to fake effectively as scum and it looks like a genuine reaction to me, even more so on re-reading through it. Some things in it are a little odd (like saying she'd claim macho townie with a gun or whatever) but ultimately that post feels like that of a townie who was trying to explain why what they did was actually obviously town play.

I guess I can see her as possible scum. But not as much as rask or gif. I don't remember ever seeing gif do anything; I just kind of forgot about him when I lost all motivation and RC kind of ignored him presumably because of the gs inno. I think I might be able to see her as scum more so than syndesis. I think I'd put my reads at something like rask > gif > kirro > synd > moi from scum -> town at this point.

Meh. I think “genuine reaction” is a pretty darn poor basis for judgement because I don’t feel there is much in a forum Mafia game that can’t be put together post-wise by Mafia trying to play as scum from an emotional standpoint. And many of Kirroha’s touchpoints in that “Why would I do something so dumb as scum” posting fall flat as it is an appeal to proficiency – if I was scum why would I do something so terrible? Players make bad plays regardless of alignment.

That being said I’m going back to re-read Rask and Synd now that Robster is a confirmed flip to refresh my position on both.

I see the generic why you think GiF is scum but could you lay out a case for both Rask and Gif / Ink in your own words? Before I dump my content I’d like to see where you are generating your reads from.

[MagnaofIllusion]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=65283

I was reading this completed game, which was apparently started about the same time as this game. Kirroha used the same method to catch a replacement as she tried on Golden Robster in this game. The posts were pretty close to each other. I think it is unlikely she used the same method as town and scum in two different games at around the same time. It is more likely she is town in both.

Um whut? The link you show doesn't support that at all. She pulls the claim now on AA-dona who didn't answer, she called scum, and who flipped Town.

Your feeling that it is unlikely she would use as Scum in a game because she used it as Town in another game is meta. And poorly used meta as you don't have any concrete reason to think what you do.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This thread is in dire need of GiF content and for non-tired Synd to weigh in. I'm not for sitting around not getting everyone's input simply given that we have Nino and 1 to 2 other clears.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I eagerly await GiF’s indicated posting.

I am up for lynching Rask or Syndesis.

I’m skeptical that after yesterday went down that you have Synd as a viable lynch candidate is you believe Rask is scum.

Because Rask scum means that both Golden and Rask would have chosen to bus their partner Synd as opposed to going for a me lynch instead which they could have egged Radiant and his ego into I’m sure.

And Rask Town means that scum chose to bus each other (Synd and Golden both were on each other much of the day) instead of going with a Rask possibility lynch which already had Implosion and had my support. Better chance of survival for Golden if the default deadline lynch wagon choice sits on Rask at L-1 with me there to butt heads with Radiant about whether Rask is a good lynch or not.

Either way I really don’t see them as possible partners at this stage.

This post worries me that we are looking at a Kirroha / Implosion or GIF team.

As long as everyone agrees to get syndesis after I flip town, feel free to end the day.

I’m of two minds on this post.

First if Rask actually is Town I’m peeved that he’s be so willing to roll over and try link lynches like this when we are only guaranteed two lynchs to get at least 1 scum. Especially given all I’ve had to say about why Synd doesn’t make much sense as a Golden partner based on how yesterday shook out.

On the other hand this is really on a base level AtE “look at me I’m resigned Town” posting I can see from scum. And Rask still has never done that Kirroha re-read he mentioned and when I pointed out it never came said “Oh, I’ll get to it”.

Rask – Synd case … make one!

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from approximately 5pm today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

Since this day is relatively fresh I see no reason to rush forward. I’m happy to wait to see the fruit of GiF’s final analysis before I posit some of my theories.

As long as everyone agrees to get syndesis after I flip town, feel free to end the day.

Here’s the thing – if you get lynched today I don’t think anyone cares about your chaining. Personally I will not be voting Synd tomorrow if you flipped Town. I don’t feel strongly about your reasoning for requesting this stance or your reads as they have played out this game. So if you are town promptly throw away your “Town is going to do this if I get lynched” notions and just play the game.

Why do you think scum was in a good position to bus Day 3? Actually that was the worst time to bus given that the mass-claim had flushed out all the Town power-roles and had not resulted in any identification of scum. It would have been far better tactically to work for another mislynch and make today LYLO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

use they were both under suspicion and one of them needed to come out looking better.

See this is where I look around and go … whut?

Your argument is that Synd and GR bussed each other to look better for today. And today your argument for Synd as scum basically boils down to “He clearly bussed”.

Does not compute …

Meanwhile you also argue that Kirroha’s jump of Golden Day 1 was ‘fine’ but Synd’s was awkward which I can’t understand for the life of me. Why does Kirroha, who says “VT claims don’t prevent lynches”, easily unvote for a VT claim that just happened to come from scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI
Kirroha pushed the GR wagon the hardest by far and a brief jump doesn't really change that; day after day she brought it up when the town focus was elsewhere.

See this is where I honestly doubt your read here. Because Kirroha pushed the Robster slot basically on "lurking scum" details. Read here posts again. She notices things that no-one else did. Which say for the sake of your argument is her reading that slot as scum. Why then, if she is so assured that the slot is scum, does she immediately back off when said slot claims VT? It makes little sense from a Town perspective to let her supposed number 1 scum read all of day 1 just slip away.

Meanwhile as scum who has pushed a lurker buddy for Town cred (you know, the bussing you said was going on Day 3) it makes absolute sense after a semi-competent and active partner replaces in to back off for that reason in hopes of shifting to a mislynch.

You are also ignoring the post GiF so kindly provided that show you offering a Robster slot lynch later in the deadline scramble which Kirroha deferred on pursing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

but what if I dont want to lynch rask

Who do you want to lynch then? Frankly you’ve had plenty of time to finish your assessment on this issue.

I would appreciate it if people talked more so that I don't have to bite the bullet and reread

If you are Town as I’m reading you I’d appreciate if you were not so lazy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Rask - why did you wait until Kirroha's slot flaked to start to ask questions?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Frankly I’m tempted to hammer after reading 1913. This looks like the classic “maybe I can stave off my lynch with a ton of analysis that I haven’t given all damn game long” hail-mary play from desperate scum who have taken the lurker / low-content route.

But I’m not going to. At least not right now. I still think Kirroha is the best bet for scum and Kirroha / Rask seems much more unlikely than Kirroha / Implosion. And I want to see what happens with the replacement situation.

Implosion’s 1907 strikes me as pre-emptive “Oh shit, Kirroha might get modkilled and then her flipping scum with me pushing hard the other way looks bad. Seriously do a side-by side of Implosion and Kirroha. Minimal interaction between the slots at all. The most telling is Implosion’s jump onto Kirroha’s early wagon and this interaction regarding Kirroha’s softclaim. That’s it. Once the heat died down on Kirroha no scum-hunting interactions between the slots at all. Some minor banter. Implosion later shows up as a Lean Town read of Kirorha’s at 1241. And then we have the following –

I'm extremely confident that rubixxx is town and I'm pretty confident that GR and kirroha are town but I could be convinced on those two.

So flipped scum GR and Kirroha are both pretty confident Town reads, but he could be convinced otherwise if necessary. Positioning to not suspect either unless tide turns.

I’ve already discussed to death why I feel the Kirroha / Robster interactions look suspect.

Implosion dropped a weak vote on the Robster slot and jumped off at 641 with the reason that “he didn’t want the day to end with a player having only posted once” (this was the first replacement Tiasho). And then speaks out about how bad the wagon is on the slot at 677

Reads as distancing until the possibility of lynch actually came within reach. At 1120 Robster had become as strong Townread for Implosion.

And the whole flow of their discussion after I replace in is suspect. Kirroha keeps mentioning Robster in a lynch pool with Synd and Rask but never actually voted Robster … only the second two. Implosion lands on Rask

[MagnaofIllusion]

In fact this whole exercise has me very willing to bet today that Kirroha / Implosion is quite possibly the scum team.

@Synd

- get in here and unvote Rask and vote Kirroha.

@Rask

- you aren't getting a Synd lynch today. If you are Town voting Kirroha is the best route to you for playing to your wincon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But if she flips town like I think she will I'm like 100% sure I'll be insta ml'd in lylo with how much everyone hates me and game over.

So are you more sure she's flip Town than you? That's the question at hand. Because I can't see as Town that making any sense. Because if you are Town like you claim then you know you are going to flip Town while you only suspect she will.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, I think she's probably (90%) town but I just can't see town winning if she's town+mislynched, whereas I think there's at least a chance if people rethink the game after my flip

Well then I don't know what to tell you then. For me the teams that seem reasonable are the following

Kirroha / Implosion
Kirroha / You
You / GiF

I've yet to see anything out of anyone's slots showing me a reasonable case why Synd is more likely to be scum. Frankly I think you are putting way too much emphasis in the "Scum were bussing Day 3 because the could" stance which is pretty thin.

Or you are scum. I'd lean heavier towards you as Town than scum at this stage but I would not rule it out.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD I will be V/LA from 5pm EDT today until Monday for my normal family weekend duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back for V/LA –

I can see actually see it being syn/implosion now

VOTE: implosion

You guys refused to wagon syn but can we at least get this going? Actually have some time that we can use if we aren't super apathetic and lazy

For the record this is stupid. Not the linking of pairs mind you – the concept we would lynch into Implosion / GiF who are Gunsmith clears before we get confirmation (via second scum non-Doctor flip) that one could be a false clear.

Why did my slot vig dierfire wtf

Truth – because some newbie assumed that Radiant had a great idea that BBT was scum. In other words for terrible, terrible reasons.

I havent read the game but I dont want to lynch either of you today how long do I have to find scum and convince people?

Does godfather investigate inno to gunsmith?

Your posting seems confused – no Godfathers do not. Only Mafia Doctors and Traitors.

how did they treat it?
cite examples?

Don’t ask for others to do what you are unwilling to do yourself. Frankly you play having replaced into a Confirmed Town slot is abysmal.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I totally apologize for not reading the 75 page game.

Then don't replace in. That's a pretty simple solution. Effort should be part of every commitment to Mafia games and if you don't want to put in the effort you are only hurting you and your teams' chances.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You're saying it's stupid to lynch in gunsmith clears essentially because its lower percentage, but realistically if it is syn/imp and people refuse to do syn there wouldn't actually be a better move.
Although I was also wondering if anyone would express interest just to see associations with imp and sort-of kirroha (cw-esque).

Well it just is. You may disagree but Implosion / GiF absolutely have to be left for last. A scum lynch that flips Mafia Doctor more or less seals the game for Town via PoE. So I understand you having your personal feelings on Syn and Implosion but I have yet to see anything more substantial from you on Syn as scum other than

1. Scum were bussing Day 3 (which I disagree with on a fundamental level but even if we consider it a push you need more evidence).
2. Meta off some game which isn't compelling at all.

What interactions with Robster's slot do you see as coming from scum-Synd? And vise-versa? Link / quote me some posts to help me understand if you seriously think Synd is scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Rask - where was 1985 all day? I'll do my best to review it ASAP and get thoughts into the thread before it is locked if possible.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Reading through Synd and Golden's ISO side by side now -

Rask I'd like you to look at 891 in context of Golden's ISO. It sticks out for me that he was basically FOSing four players (two dead Town, yourself and Synd) yet he had reason to FOS Kirroha given 830. Do you think Golden would be more likely to soft-bus a partner or completely ignore them despite showing some suspicion earlier?

[MagnaofIllusion]

On your case –

After re-reading I can see your points about Synd’s Day 1 interactions and late votes. The issue I have is that Kirroha pretty much also fits that to a tee – she jumped off the Robster slot wagon and jumped around never to return to Robster. So that’s a push in my mind. But I can see your point.

I’m not sure what “Rule of Three” is but I can’t really say in a game this size that scum are automatically going to just slap a random partner in their suspicions lists for random bussing purposes. Meh.

The rest of Day 3 I’m ambivalent on. You can see some of my comments below that helped shape my opinion. And I’ve already said my piece – what you see as bussing I don’t simply because neither one commits to it strongly. If you are going to bus you do it in a way that reads as Town. Clearly their interactions didn’t do that given that Radiant called it bussing behavior.

So I can see why you think that but on the whole I’m happier with Kirroha over Synd.

Points regarding Synd –

1095 looks like he picked up on Radaint’s crumb. Despite their back and forth on the subject I don’t see scum letting Radiant live if one of them suspected him as an Investigation role.

Also I don’t get the sense that 1124 where Synd basically asks both GR and Kirroha to explain their push on you as coming from a GR partner if you are indeed Town.

I also find it very telling that around 1290 Robster is hammering Synd for lack of interaction with players. Note the more or less complete lack of interactions from him to Kirroha / Implosion.

Other points

GR’s response to you at 1228 actually makes me feel better about your slot. Because he’s pre-Town flip already setting up to assess scum-motivations for what he thought was a hammer. And yes there is some small chance this is scum theatre but …

[MagnaofIllusion]

If you are going to bus you do it in a way that reads as Town. Clearly their interactions didn’t do that given that Radiant called it bussing behavior.

Quick note, this is circular logic and not actually a thing. Basically by that logic nobody can ever catch bussing because it will always read pure town and win the game and you can replace "bus" here with anything scum do.

Well and my answer to you is exactly that - bussing isn't going to be something that is always obvious and always caught. There are degrees by which it is successful and it is dependent on the skill of the players bussing. The truth lies in the middle ground somewhere. But this is an academic argument.

At this stage I'm satisfied that you can throw the hammer whenever you can. I don't want to run up against deadline too closely but you can certainly hold out for a few hours if you wish.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: kirroha

I hope I'm wrong I guess?

I absolutely hope you were wrong reading Kiro as Town ...

Now time to wait for the flip.

Reminder - if for some reason Kirroha flips Mafia Doctor confirmed Town is (Dwe / Implosion / GiF).

If Kirroha flips any other Mafia I want Implosions' head on a platter tomorrow.

[MagnaofIllusion]

and if they flip town?

Well then we will be in LYLO tomorrow and baring some odd Nightkill choice I have to do a dedicated re-read to see who between Synd and Rask makes more sense as scum. PoE should make that pretty apparent.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But yeah 90% it's syn/imp and going to vote syn unless anyone objects.

Just wait. There is absolutely no reason to rush voting in LYLO no matter how comfortable we are. Drop a FOS if you want but please don't vote before everyone has at least posted.

Yes, I also know that you posted two rather large walls. I will comment / discuss those in a bit but I thought it best to state my thoughts on this tiny but important issue ASAP.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I will be V/LA for weekend family sense of duty from 5pm EDT today until Monday morning.

Ok so today is a simple proposition for me. Regardless of Implosion / GIF being possibly falsely gunsmith cleared the other isn’t. So I’m not going to bother to look in either of that direction today. Not worth the effort today as it distracts from getting today’s lynch correct.

My vote today comes down to either Synd or Rask. After seeing the Kirroha as Town flip I really need to re-assess both your ISOs in context of Golden’s slot as well. I’ll be asking some questions of both of you as I go through your ISOs. It may be today or it may be Monday.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I started my Synd read but got bogged down with a project ...

I'll finish it Monday.

Also I need to re-look at IAI's Day 2 ISO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA –

Pulling out my notes from where the ended on reading Synd and Robster’s slot and will post my feeling shortly.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I've finished my review of Synd and Robster's slot in tandem ISO. I chose Synd first as I have the most reassessment to do on his slot given the Kirroha flip.

In review the interactions between Synd and the Robster slot I can certainly see as scum. Day 1 and 2 there was minimal ineractions that were more than on the surfact between them. As examples -

Synd asked ShortCut a question at 200. ShortCut was absent for an extended amount of time and when ShortCut did return Synd again asked reminded SCB of the question. Aside from that nada either way. And Synd only moves to pressure that slot after ShortCut's replace at with 553 which assesses “your predecessor was too terrible”. Yet Synd had minimal interactions with the slot before that and really never mentioned SCB as scummy in any signficant way. Reads as possible bussing.

I also dislike his hop onto the Tojam wagon off of Robster's slot. Tojam had only 5 posts before Synd made his change moved to the Robster slot wagon. So Synd goes from voting the Robster slot to voting someone who joined them on said wagon. I can see this as a possible bussing partner who saw the chance to move to a non-partner lynch on another low content target.

After Golden replaces in the Synd - Golden interactions are very, very soft the rest of Day 1 and Day 2. Robster on multiple occasions calls out Synd for scummy actions (example in 800 but doesn't make any effort to pressure or vote Synd. This happens multiple times including posts in the 1000s and 1122. In summary those days Synd was always in the bottom of Golden's rankings as to who was scum but there was never any action to follow up on those claims.

Synd's read on Golden doesn't seem very organic to me. He mentions Golden is a Null read at 1277. Then about 60 posts later at 1332 Golden is now a probably Town read yet there is nothing between there where Synd interacts with Golden and Golden continues to softly call Synd scum. I can see this as scum unwilling to commit to a counter-bus when the Beeboy slot was around to mislynch.

Probably the most damning part of the Day 2 exchange is 1285 by Robster. Here Robster is trying to link Synd to GiF for the sin of "calling each other scum without interacting with each other" but that is in a nutshelll the treatment Robster's slot has laid on Synd - softly calling him scum while not interacting with him or trying to vote Synd.

Day 3 could be cross-bussing. The snipe back and forth at each other but Golden is happy to move to a Rask compromise lynch despite having a supposed strong scum read on Synd and Synd now moving Robster to a scum read.

Overall I could see them as partners who got desperate due to Radiant's push on them Day 3 who decided to cross-bus in hopes that one would escape unscathed after the fact.

Certainly not sold 100% but within the realm of possibility.

Next up - review of Rask and the Golden slot.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I've completed my Rask / Robster slot re-read ...

The Day 1 interaction between the slots is basically non-existent. ShortCut has very limited interactions with Rask. 505 is the closest they get to anything game related and that is very, very soft interactions. In fact I find it bordering on coaching from Rask to ShortCut "Hey just make this Townie style post and you can get some of the heat off you". Although in a Daytalk game that really doesn't probably hold much weight. Still ... it just is odd.

I think given Rask's penchant for pointing out Rule of Three posting that 546 actually fits that pattern - we have ShortCut mixed in with a group of 3 Town players.

The vote on Robster's slot at 785 comes out of left field. No suspicion posted their way just a hop onto a wagon with the reasoning "my wagon on BBT (Town) isn't viable".

Another point against Rask is that at 451 she made a show of stating that pushing for claims was a bad idea Day 1 or Day 2. Yet she is willing to bounce around to multiple wagons at the end of day (IAI, BBT, Golden) which basically generated at least 2 more claims than Kirrohas' VT claim and Kill's Jailkeep claim. Reads as posturing to me as opposed to actual Town thinking.

The Day 2 interactions with Robster really aren't more indicative of Town trying to read scum. Rask really never does much to establish a scum-read on Golden via interactions. And Golden plays with the concept of suspecting Rask but keeps pushing it off to "another Day".

Very much don't like 1511 1512. If Synd is Town then this very much reads of indecisive bussing on Rask's part.

By the time Day 3 rolls around the interactions between the slots don't really deepen much. They take turns voting each other and then backing off to another player without any questioning or scum-hunting backing up the movement. And having re-read Rask's play around my entry I really, really dislike it. Re-readiing the PoE again leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. I can certainly see scum willing to bus (Robster) but happy to lump three Town in the "must lynch" pool and being willing to vote anyone there at a drop of a hat.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok next stop on the train is reading IAI's ISO again.

It would be great if Implosion would actually commit to making a read for today and if we could get a GiF replacement to comment ASAP.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I have no words for you if you're town and after replacing into the game d3 trying to lynch gunsmith, d4 kirroha, you finish off d5 losing lylo.
Like if you're saying you couldn't townread me from our exchange d4/5 and lynch off day 1-2 I won't even bother.

FYI the scramble near day 1 end was because it was going to be no-lynch and I'm one of a few people who were really trying to stay around to avoid it.

See this ... this makes me very nervous. There's a huge undercurrent of Appealing to Fear (Losing in LYLO) and discrediting with slanted facts in this response. Where have I said I've made up my mind? In fact clearly the fact that I need to read IAI shows I'm not clear on my decision. But it is somehow like you expect that I should forget the early part of the game and only lean on the last Day or so. That's piss-poor play for Town to make.

Fact remains I can see some suspect play in both your ISOs. Clearly I did with Synd. And you didn't seem to have a problem when I posted my re-read of him Day 1 to 3. So what about me doing the same to you should be any different?

[MagnaofIllusion]

If I'm "appealing to fear" that's because I myself am upset at the possibility of losing this game despite being right on

my scumreads for most of the game

and I hate being this scenario where I can't do anything but just "hope" and "trust" other people to play it well. .

See the bolded is a point I don't believe. Why do you think you have been "on point most of game"? The only possible scum you bounced around on Day 1 was Robster (BBT was Town as was IAI and Tojam) and your push on that slot was basically non-existent Day 1. You participated in the Beeboy mislynch Day 2. Only 1 scum has been lynched so far Day 3 and guess what - all three of Synd, myself and yourself were on the wagon. So I don't see how your reads are so spot on and you are so frustrated when you aren't statistically any better than any other living player. You only pushed Synd yesterday and if Kirroha getting lynched in his place is the source of all this rage then I'm not sure what to tell you.

Frankly this is a hot button issue for me because I see far too much crowing on the site since my return about how much better people's reads are than everyone else. And i loathe it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

OK Implosion really needs to get in here and give content. As does Synd.

And, well, GiF's replacement too but I can't call them out by name.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But I suppose if there's one slot that I don't really strictly need to be here to figure out the game it's that one given that I don't think there's any likely team that doesn't have gif-scum.

GiF’s possible replacement isn’t getting lynched today. Not a chance. Or more precisely not a chance unless some incredibly stupid Town votes for them. GiF and you are both Gunsmith clears. No reason to vote or even look there if we don’t get the other partner today.

I guess what I am saying is I’m wondering why you are spending your time even bothering to look at GiF today given that slot can be sorted out Day 6 if we make it that far.

I’m far more concerned with who of myself-Rask-Synd is scum in your eyes. At least one of us has to be.

Magna, are you looking particularly for the case on Ras or just content in general? if in general is there anything specific you'd like me to talk about? I can probably ramble about my feelings about someone if that would be helpful.

I want to see your thought process as to who you think is scum between Rask and myself and why. Reasons. Posts either quoted or linked with reasoning on why you see it from a scum perspective.
As said above – Implosion and GiF will have to be sorted after today given the Gunsmith info.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Reading now.

VC please

Welcome Virtue.

There are no votes cast.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Have the pairings been decided (meaning X's partner must be Y)? Why the focus on you two?

Can someone make an accurate first post for me? I see BBT posting on page 1, but I have zero idea who he is. There are a lot of replacements. The mod also did not state who died versus being lynched

Ignore the what Rask said about who is up for today to some degree. Go in looking with an open mind. The only thing that is important is that both Implosion and yourself have Gunsmith clears on you so only one of the two of you can possibly be scum. So you two get a pass for today since a Mafia Doctor flip clears both and nets us a Confirmed Town at 3-person LYLO if it gets there.

Replacements I can think of -

Dierfiere replaced BBT
I replaced Rubixxx
Golden Robster replaced someone who posted like 3 times replace ShortCutButton
You replaced GuyinFreezer replaced Ink.
beeboy replaced Tojam. Forget if there was someone before Tojam.

I think that is all of them. Rask / Implosion / Synd are original players.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Syn, Implosion, why is it that every dead by nightkill town suspects at least one of you?

To be fair BBT was a Vig Shot .... Nino listened to Radiant and there you have it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD I’ll be V/LA from 5pm EDT today until Monday morning EDT for my usual weekend family duties.

Yeah at this point I’ve read through IAI’s ISO. I have some thoughts but more or less I’m waiting on Implosion and Synd to return to the thread and answer any outstanding questions. If this doesn’t happen by the time I get back from V/LA ….

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA. After looking over what happened this weekend I've probably 95% sure I've made up my mind. Last chance to change it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Like if you're gonna pull some "why couldn't you guys convince me better" bullshit you're getting 0 sympathy.

You know what - get bent. I've really had enough of this bullshit attitude from you regardless of whatever your alignment is.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=850

I know very well how as Town to deal with crappy Town players not doing anything endgame.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Rask if I was the type of player to vote out of annoyance you would already have a vote. I'm not.

Everything isn't about you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Really starting to wonder why townMoI decided to drag his decision/vote on for this long. If he was scum he'd just vote me with syn/imp and win but like why would he take this game hours to deadline when he already pretty much decided a few days ago?

Maybe because I’m a bit leery with both Titus and Implosion both holding onto their votes also. I know that my vote comes from Town.

That’s basically it. I mean the only way both can be Town being careful as I am is if somehow both yourself and Synd are scum and that really makes no sense from a game-state and general play standpoint.

I’m going to vote in a little bit. Doing one last re-read of my read-throughs.

Preview Edit - Titus ninjas me with her vote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Frankly this game has gone on long enough. If I choose incorrectly then meh, I take responsibility for that.

Both Rask and Synd look like possible partners for the reasons I outlined earlier. At the end of the day I have to choose between Synd and Robster’s very weak interactions (which look like buddies not quite sure how much to bus each other) versus Rask and Robster’s interactions (which look like Robster is more bus happy and Rask on the other hand is happy to buddy up to Robster at points).

Deciding factor is activity. Synd’s pure apathy at trying to actually demonstrate that he actually believes Rask is scum. Rask also has been wiling to antagonize me today which probably doesn’t come from scum who wants my tie-breaking vote in LYLO.

VOTE: Synd

Rask if you are scum congrats. You reversed your Day 1-3 skating with activity the last two days enough that you deserve the win if that is the case.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Of course if it's some weird scenario and syn was actually town and we lost I'm making a big fool of myself for speaking like this, but whatever.

The only ways Synd could be Town are -

1. You trolling in Twilight as scum.
2. Scum had two investigation immune roles in this game.
3. Radiant was a jerk and lied about his investigations results.

I dismiss 2 out of hand. While I don't like Radiant from a personality standpoint I hope he wouldn't do 3 knowing his death was approaching.

So that just leaves 1. Feel free to come clean ... hammer is already in.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well if Synd is indeed scum then I don't think too much discussion about relational tells is wise in Twilight. Scum have to decide who to kill and that decision in and of itself can provide the remaining Town with possible information.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks very much for Metrion for taking over as Mod and making sure this game didn't get abandoned.

With the game ending so aburptly after Synd's lynch I'm going to take a few minutes to gather my thoughts.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That reminds me - this game demonstrates that bread-crumbing VT is a bad idea outside of a few rare circumstances.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Totally didn't expect hammer there.

If I may ask - any reason why?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I was indeed scumreading her at that point in the game my good friend syndesis.

Let's lynch syndesis. Leave my friend golden robster alone

Rask I do have to say I find it ironic that you basically called both non-traitor scum your friend this game