Open 634: Sharing is Caring (Game Over)

[SirCakez]

I've talked about the leaving my vote on Kuroi thing Day 3 twice now. No one expected Blacle to quick hammer, it's that simple.

[chilledtea]

Persivul's hammer on maxous felt a bit town. That was one of the main reasons I thought maybe clumsy was indeed max's partner.

The whole cakes is town, max's hammer on shotty made him look bad - it was correct. Him town reading anen and cakes also felt genuine.

But I have reached the end of day 4 and I can't see cakes as scum - using "urgh" and things like that are not strong evidence, and anen hasn't seemed scum. However one good thing about cakes is he was the first to ask pers about max/clumsy. It is possible pers wouldn't have said anything until cakes asked him.

[Persivul]

So, I'm scummy for...

Being on both scum lynches...?

...despite provable meta that I'm against busing?

Killing Alex N1 after he was hard defending me?

Not being on the D3 quicklynch?

I get that my tone was not particularly townie this game, but facts need to trump tone. This is my first scumday. I haven't learned much in that time, but I have learned that when the objective facts point one direction, and my gut points another, it's usually my gut that's wrong.

[chilledtea]

The main thing that concerned me about Anen at this point was...why is he still alive? The problem with a good player being obvtown is that: if town, they tend to get NK'd well before endgame; if scum, the question arises - why haven't you been NK'd yet? In this case, PRs have been killed the last three nights, so it makes sense that Anen's still alive.

Personally, I can play as obvtown, but I don't do it as town because: as noted above, it leads to early NKs;

and, by nature I sometimes just like to post off the top of my head, which leads to some slop which isn't obvtown, but it takes too much thought to avoid it. So, I don't take NKs, but the downside is that I get in the position I'm in now - convincing people I'm town after a game that wasn't obvtown.

Yeah this was bs. Pers is VT so this makes no sense.

Although cakes day 5 hasn't been that great. Still pers is ranking higher on scum radar.

[Persivul]

Yeah this was bs. Pers is VT so this makes no sense.

Why not?

[chilledtea]

Because VT's don't think about their survival, at least they shouldn't. If they get taken out instead of PR, it is a worthwhile trade any day of the week. In fact, VTs are known to play as obvtown as possible.

[chilledtea]

I'll go quote digging later -_-

Just do this for completion's sake.

[Persivul]

Because VT's don't think about their survival, at least they shouldn't. If they get taken out instead of PR, it is a worthwhile trade any day of the week. In fact, VTs are known to play as obvtown as possible.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Are you new or an alt? People don't always do what they should do. You're working from formulas rather than considering individuals.

Here's my last game as a VT:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=65700

It reads much like my play in this game. Votes with little explanation. Hammered a wagon I hadn't been pushing, and it was scum (interestingly, it was Cakez). I was finally taken out D4 by a 1 hour and 5 minute quicklynch which was 3/4 town. So, I was VT, but yeah, people just going by tone thought I was scum.

You and/or anen will now pull out a cliche on self meta and say this is worthless. I've done the same myself in the past. But I've since learned that, when people aren't doing their meta homework themselves, a player does need to bring it up. You shouldn't trust it on my word. Read it yourself. My play in my most recent VT game should mean a whole lot more than basic theoretical views of what a particular role should or should not do.

[chilledtea]

I am not an alt. I guess new describes me better.

I think you are missing the point. I don't think you could have purposefully played as obvtown. If you could have as a VT you would have.

[chilledtea]

No, it reads to me like trying to force a wagon through anywhere you can

In my experience, scum don't try to force wagons through anywhere they can on D1. They apply minimal pressure and wait to see what develops.

before ending up having to settle for Shotty when you became a leading wagon and needed to take pressure off yourself.

Again, it's ridiculous - in general, and for my scum game specifically - to theorize that I'm scum who needed a counter wagon...

and I went to a scum buddy for the CW

. CWs to scum are town. I was the CW to shotty, who was scum. That makes me town.

Why did Max not jump on the counterwagon then?

[Persivul]

I am not an alt. I guess new describes me better.

I think you are missing the point. I don't think you could have purposefully played as obvtown. If you could have as a VT you would have.

LMAO - I can't play as obvtown?

Here's a game in which I was scum, and I was so obvtown that

a doctor protected me on the final night of the game

:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=62219

Just because someone can play obvtown doesn't mean that they always do it. You're looking at general theory rather than me as a specific player, and your theory isn't correct anyway. Maybe you don't care about meta, but a lot of people do. If you obvtown it every time as VT because you'll take a kill instead of a PR, you're fucked when you actually are a PR, because scum who know your meta will know you're a PR if you don't town it up enough.

Some people who can obvtown it up don't just because they want to try something different.

Some people who can obvtown it up don't because RL interferes and they just don't have the time or energy.

[chilledtea]

Scum cakes in that game doesn't feel like scum cakes in this game btw.

You got lynched very quickly and that was carelessness of the town than anything else (although I actually didn't read the game, just skimmed it).

Your vote on shotty was the one with the least amount of conviction, it was a simple naked vote. I actually don't see any case or attack you made on shotty. It was very similar to your vote on maxous.

Pedit : Hmm...ok. In this particular game you didn't play as obvtown, and maybe it was because you couldn't. That is what I wanted to say, not that you couldn't have played as obvtown ever.

[Persivul]

hy did Max not jump on the counterwagon then?

Unless you're scum, then his scum buddy was already on shotty and was apparently staying there, so he saw that the bus was rolling and he jumped on to get some town cred - which did get him pretty far in the game.

[Persivul]

Your vote on shotty was the one with the least amount of conviction, it was a simple naked vote. I actually don't see any case or attack you made on shotty. It was very similar to your vote on maxous.

Exactly. Why would scum!pers kill off his buddies, but not even do a big push so he could get serious town cred for it?

Pedit : Hmm...ok. In this particular game you didn't play as obvtown, and maybe it was because you couldn't. That is what I wanted to say, not that you couldn't have played as obvtown ever.

If you're referring to circumstances - yes, I was too damn busy at work (I'm a CPA) to obvtown it up in any of my games, but you can see that I was indeed a VT in Mini 1774.

[chilledtea]

If texcat was very obvious regarding her crumbs, does it mean that I am scum, or am I not scum?

Anyways, max was hesitant of the wagon on shotty and if I remember correctly he wanted someone else other than you lynched. Actually, he wanted me(KT) lynched (lmao). He also wanted to lynch wgeurtz, masquerade before he finally settled for shotty between you and shotty EVEN though he had you in his scum list some time back.

Spoiler: Max's last several posts on day 1

Maxous - has your tex read changed at all? Who are your scum reads?

i've softened a bit on Texcat.

{KainTepes, Texcat, Masquerade, Persivul} would be the list i'm working off atm

Like this, if he's scum and he's already being called out for not explaining his votes, why does he keep doing it so blatantly?

wouldn't be the first time i've seen it from scum

nevermind, pers is probably just town.

I wanna go back to lynching texcat

sorry if i'm glazing over this a bit but I still prefer a lynch among {KainTepes, Texcat, Masquerade} if at all possible

KT is getting replaced in a lot of games, that has nothing to do with it.
He's scummy because his vote on Texcat was crap

VOTE: texcat

HE IS SCUM BECAUSE WGEURTS,, is town

Here's the vote.
He votes and hops onto Texcat, not because he thinks Texcat is scum, it's because he thinks wguerts is town.
For context: read the conversation earlier on the page between myself and BW where we agreed if wguerts flipped town it would make texcat!scum seem a bit more likely.
To me, this came across as buddying and opportunistic. As if our conversation gave him a great *excuse* to jump on the texcat wagon rather than having a genuine reason.

VOTE: shotty

calling me a VI implies that you know I am town........ can you explain how you know that?

I wasn't a big fan of this either, I felt it was disingenuous.

All three he's got here are not among the top three for the game. While not necessarily indicative, does seem like scum distancing from the lynch today.

we still have 3 days left which is plenty of time.
no need to panic and start compromising just yet

ugh, fine

unvote

, VOTE: wguerts

we're just stalling till the deadline at this point

can nobody hammer until KT gets replaced anyway please?

shotty and pers are both fairly strong town-reads at the moment.

and masquerade gives a stance*

I thought shotty's push on Kuroi and Persivul was decently reasoned and he doesn't come across as being opportunistic at all regarding pushes or votes.
his #380 was antagonistic to a lot of players (even the ones he was calling town!) in his readlist which I feel like is something scum wouldn't want to do.
I know people are voting him for low content but I think it's just a lazy playstyle more than anything.

-

For Persivul, it's mostly just tonal. Stuff like #426 sounds genuine for example.
I can't really articulate this one, sorry.
I do agree with his latest read-list for the most part though.

unvote,

VOTE: Masquerade

yeah no. That is two poor L-1 votes - first was on Texcat.

His Vote is an OMGUS because there was no scumhunting, there was no gradual progression to his scumread. He just suddenly knew someone else was scum. If it was happening to you, it would be easier to see given that you know your alignment. This is how scum appears to be scumhunting because they can't just do nothing and town posture in every post...

good points.
now look at *both* masquerade's votes on Texcat and Shotty.

i'll hammer when chilledtea gives a catch-up.

i'm getting tired of this.

I think #595 is scummy again regarding his changed stance on Texcat but i'm feeling like a broken record

unvote,

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

[chilledtea]

And I haven't removed any posts from Max's ISO - they are just a set of consecutive posts from the Max's ISO starting from where I thought it was related to our discussion.

[chilledtea]

Persivul.

Naked votes in 132 and 181.

233 is horrible: "I thought that was implied, but FTR, intent to hammer. Personally I think the guy is town trying to play too tricksy, but at this point he's going to be a distraction for as long as he's here, and his flip will help analysis. Absent a claim he needs to go." (About Blade) – Typical rolefishing and terrible reasoning.

If I'm scum, I'm a rolecop, and wouldn't need to rolefish.

A question to everyone : are rolecop results given in PMs or in the Mafia PTs? Because if they are given in PTs this post doesn't make sense.

[chilledtea]

SirCakez.

If something, 313–314–315 may give us a red flag. Knowing there's no Daytalk this may have been a push from SirCakez like "do something, buddy, I want to develop a better read on you"!

This worried me as well. Shotty's "what's your problem with me" was weird.

Then a couple of shallow interactions while the vote was still on Shotty. And to tell the truth, he never had a strong case on him. Nor any strong reads...

570 may have been an idea about building up a panic-counter:

"We have a little over a day, idk if we can get the votes for Masq."

Hmmm... 589:

"Ya Max we know Masq's voting history is terrible but no time to switch the wagon to him. Good vig shot though."

Double-hmmm...

Day1-Twilight:

"If he's actually town I'm going to be pissed because he made zero effort to scumhunt all day."

(626) – I don't know what to think. Is it genuine or fake? What do you others think?

________

662:

"Someone give intent on Masq and get a claim pls"

He was actually saying the same about Blade on Day1. (But not about Shotty!) The problem is, I don't remember him doing this as scum.

Later he was trying to get people for the Kuroi-wagon. (Knowing Wgeurts's alignment this is not scummy in itself.)

In 833 he voted for Wgeurts and yet again, that post about requesting an intent or what-s-it-called.

On the other hand, 841 looks town. Digging up a bad progression from ChilledTea, that's not what a scum would do. (?)

________

In 920 his lynch pool was Max, Chilled, Clumsy. It changed into Max/Persivul in 928. Is he bussing again? (By the way, some of the later posts would be scummy IF Clumsy had flipped scum. Weird.)

1002–1005. Persivul–SirCakez interaction. ChilledTea, what do you think of that?

Seems genuine. Questions I had in my mind. He attempted to start a conversation with pers so it looks like he wanted to maybe clear pers from PoE and confirm that clumsy is max's partner.

His latest posts look genuine, I mean, his gameplay is the typical "I'm town, don't lynch me and let me explain why the other player is scum".

________

TL;DR. Persivul looks scummier.

________

Post-edit. Persivul, why did you pick those parts of my post?

[chilledtea]

So I have completed my re-read.

Scum is in persivul and cakes. Anen is clear imo.

Leaning strongly with regards to pers.

Reasons :

1) Max : Sudden townread of persivul. Reluctant vote on shotty. This matches with reluctant vote by pers on shotty.

2) Anen is a good player sheep.

3) Texcat was obvious cop. She actually wasn't. She was only obvious to a) Me (because I know my alignment) b) scum (because they know my alignment).

Cakes is the second option :

1) I actually want him to go ahead and find 1 game with urgh in it where he is town. Also geez if it is possible

2) Shotty's convo with cakes. I don't think shotty either voted cakes or OMGUS'd cakes for the vote or the push. He could have, after all.

3) Very little explanation for his moves. I think this is something that cakes does as town and scum probably. So it is kind of difficult to read him.

4) I want to write more here but I can't find anything.

[Persivul]

1) Max : Sudden townread of persivul. Reluctant vote on shotty. This matches with reluctant vote by pers on shotty.

First, white knighting is a thing.

Second, I was third person on the shotty lynch. I wasn't reluctant.

[Persivul]

I gave you my most recent town game a little while ago. Here's my most recent scum game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=65750

If you're interested in tone, read my ISO in each, particularly early, and see how they compare to this game.

Anen, I want your opinion on this too.

[chilledtea]

True but white knighting while bussing reluctantly seems strange. I think he might have realized that it was a bit unnecessary at that time to put any pressure on you.

Your third vote might have been there but you never pushed for shotty. Anen pushed, sir cakes pushed, but your vote was a sheep vote. Just like the one you did on wgeurtz. It was an empty vote. After Maxous, and masquerade's vote yours was the most suspicious one.

Pedit : Will read through that.

[SirCakez]

Oh I just found a game where I said urgh as town that Persivul conveniently missed
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... h#p7655582
So there ya go
Also I said it in a marathon game as town as well but Persivul admitted he wasn't counting that at least

[Persivul]

Your third vote might have been there but you never pushed for shotty. Anen pushed, sir cakes pushed, but your vote was a sheep vote. Just like the one you did on wgeurtz. It was an empty vote. After Maxous, and masquerade's vote yours was the most suspicious one.

And again, what is more consistent with bussing: just sheeping without explanation, or really pushing in order to get town cred?

From the wiki article: "Bussing is the act of distancing yourself from your scum partners, usually by helping to lynch them (

and hopefully playing a major role in convincing others that they are worthy to be lynched

)."

You note yourself that I didn't play a major role in the wagon.

OTOH, Cakez clearly wanted credit for the shotty wagon - see 354 for one example.

You're seeing the right facts here, but drawing the wrong conclusion.

[Persivul]

Oh I just found a game where I said urgh as town that Persivul conveniently missed
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... h#p7655582
So there ya go
Also I said it in a marathon game as town as well but Persivul admitted he wasn't counting that at least

Fair enough. I likely missed it because it was on the second page of the ISO, and usually ISOs are all on one page.