Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[Killthestory]

You've remained tired for three whole days? How is Lowell "obv scumming?" Can you quote the relevant posts and point out what is suspicious about them? Why aren't you voting his slot if he's so obviously mafia? What are your thoughts on his replacement Masquerade?

yes

[Imperium]

So, one of our games ended last night which frees up some of our mafia time. I'll probably fall asleep soon, but I'm going to try to at least catch up on yesterday and today before I do.

[Imperium]

I was a vanilla townie. Fuck you guys. RC is scum, OceanWind is scum, and one of Virtue / Masq is scum. Imperium is probably town.

You know what - if you were town, the one thing that would have been great was for you to actually play the game, explain your reads, and communicate with people. You ignored around three-quarters of the questions directed at you, you popped in from time to time with random useless comments like how often you get mislynched, you were like a stone wall that could not be penetrated or understood. I have no idea what drives you to play that way. You weren't a player in the game, you were a troll that somehow found your way into a mafia forum to get yourself tangled up in a game. All you needed to do was read the thread, and answer the questions that people were asking, and say why you had the reads you did. This isn't even a case of a new player trying to learn the ropes, this was a case of you being absolutely a hindrance to anyone trying to scumhunt. And it doesn't matter one bit if Radiant is actually mafia - that doesn't "redeem" you in my eyes because you went about it in the worst possible way, and that's coming from someone more than a little annoyed at Radiant's play this game.

In night I pointed out this post to nacho with a high five because really can the fucking town in this game please bother playing like town.

Later posts and the night kill have me not high fiving him so much though. /

[Imperium]

MagnaOfIllusion is the player I most want to look at. Out of everyone's play around the Snarky wagon, his was the most strategic. He spent the entirety of the day going after Killthestory for stuff I don't understand and can't relate to. While he did make some valid points about Snarky being a weak player,

that seems very unlike Magna to give someone a pass for being weak.

He most certainly didn't give a pass to ChurchOfMercy or Killthestory, both of whom he picked on for things that could come from both mafia and weak town. He also doesn't strike me as the type of player to forgive mistakes of inconsistencies. Yet, despite the most ridiculous display from SnarkySnowman, MagnaOfIllusion was careful to stay away from the wagon. When his Killthestory push didn't kick off, he tried to get a wagon going on Ranger but never questioned me this morning after I switched back to Snarky while providing no reasons why. It's also very odd that he townread both jmo16mla and Snarky both of whom have the type of playstyles I'd expect Magna to pounce on based on how he went after Church/Killthestory for how inconsistent and useless they were being. I think this also had the ulterior motive of putting him in a better light than RadiantCowbells which is important considering they both dislike each other.

Why does it seem odd to you, player who has never played with magna before, to think it seems very unlike him to give a pass to someone for being weak?

okay so I got a little ahead of myself and you do explain it a little, but he's also offered quite a pass to lowell, why aren't you mentioning that?

But can you explain why he would go after CoM for the same thing, try to get a lynch on KTS for the same thing, but excuse Snarky? That's where you're losing me.

[Imperium]

I don't think Ranger's description of Snarky's play is very accurate either. If you look at Snarky's wiki and skim his first newbie game, you'll see that he made a lot of big analytical posts there so it's certainly not something he would only do as mafia so the extreme confidence I don't like.

I'm pondering your magna stuff and will respond later.

But, why do you wait until Snarky has been lynched to reveal this meta read you've done on him???

[Imperium]

I also have to look back on Imperium. They're in my "town but with a some questionable actions" category. a) I don't understand the townread on MagnaOfIllusion at all and the immense confidence in it would like it explained if you guys show up before the thread locks. b) Their reasoning for voting Snarky essentially amounted to a deal with RadiantCowbells that they'll vote him if he votes ChurchOfMercy and I just don't think that's pro-town. For a while, I didn't think they were actually seriously going to follow through with it but they did which is surprising.

A) Magna
1) Why don't you have a town read on Magna?
2) Why did you want it explained before the thread locked???
3) Quite frankly, at this moment the only reason I have concern about magna is because you keep asking and I think you could be partnered.

B) Snarky
1) Did you not notice that ever since day one we had Snarky as our second scum read?
2) We've had our vote on Snarky for quite a long time, did you ask about it before now? If not, why not?
3) Did our scum read on Snarky confuse you in any way? Was our reasoning anti-town?
4) Why did you vote Snarky?
5) Is there something wrong with listening to someone else who had a strong read who listened to us when we had a strong read?

C) Miscellaneous

1) Did you or did you not argue with Ranger about how her accusations made no sense if we were competent players?
2) Why are you casting such a wide ass net?

[Imperium]

Killthestory is another one in the same category. The read changes and the enthusiasm I read as town but that hammer without a claim from someone that he said he was townreading was pretty bad. The problem with this game is there are so many people doing anti-town things (Killthestory, ChurchOfMercy, SnarkySnowman) or lurking that's hard to effectively zone in on the mafia. Hopefully, masquerade, Virtue, and massive give us a lot to read them by.

Just so you know, that read you just gave kts - the enthusiasm - is a tonal read.

[Imperium]

The most striking thing about her townplay was that immediately upon replacing in, she suspected a strong player that hadn't received much suspicion before and aggressively went after them.

And in

what

realm is going after

Imperium

not qualify as doing this?

I was thinking about this as well. I don't think you ever seriously intended to go after them. I think you wanted them to townread you upon Snarky's townflip because the entirety of your read on them is based on Snarky flipping mafia. It's almost as if you "knew" Snarky was mafia so when he's town, that would absolve you. It also absolves from having to push Imperium anymore since you no longer have any reason to. They weren't protecting a partner after all.

I did a similar thing in my first newbie game. I bussed my partner (GoodMorning) while saying that if she flipped town, a townie (Ether) was likely the culprit setting me up, and repeated this many times. After GoodMorning flipped mafia, Ether strongly townread me.

You know snarky hadn't flipped yet here, he could totally have been trolling, but you feel 100% confident on calling him town here. And why do you think we'd call Ranger town based on her read on us due to Snarky???

[Imperium]

VOTE: Nosferatu

Let's fight this out.

T: Imp, Ranger,Ocean, Magna, Ollie

why do you have Ranger and Ocean as town?

[Imperium]

VOTE: Nosferatu

Let's fight this out.

T: Imp, Ranger,Ocean, Magna, Ollie

why do you have Ranger and Ocean as town?

wait whoa whoa whoa aren't you the one who said we've been buddied and need a hard reset? what did you mean by that? And why do you have the people who I was assuming you were claiming were buddying us and we needed to reset about us as town???

[OceanWind]

MagnaOfIllusion is the player I most want to look at. Out of everyone's play around the Snarky wagon, his was the most strategic. He spent the entirety of the day going after Killthestory for stuff I don't understand and can't relate to. While he did make some valid points about Snarky being a weak player,

that seems very unlike Magna to give someone a pass for being weak.

He most certainly didn't give a pass to ChurchOfMercy or Killthestory, both of whom he picked on for things that could come from both mafia and weak town. He also doesn't strike me as the type of player to forgive mistakes of inconsistencies. Yet, despite the most ridiculous display from SnarkySnowman, MagnaOfIllusion was careful to stay away from the wagon. When his Killthestory push didn't kick off, he tried to get a wagon going on Ranger but never questioned me this morning after I switched back to Snarky while providing no reasons why. It's also very odd that he townread both jmo16mla and Snarky both of whom have the type of playstyles I'd expect Magna to pounce on based on how he went after Church/Killthestory for how inconsistent and useless they were being. I think this also had the ulterior motive of putting him in a better light than RadiantCowbells which is important considering they both dislike each other.

Why does it seem odd to you, player who has never played with magna before, to think it seems very unlike him to give a pass to someone for being weak?

1. okay so I got a little ahead of myself and you do explain it a little, but he's also offered quite a pass to lowell, why aren't you mentioning that?

2. But can you explain why he would go after CoM for the same thing, try to get a lynch on KTS for the same thing, but excuse Snarky? That's where you're losing me.

1. Lowell was never under serious pressure so Magna didn't really have to step in and defend him the way he did with Snarky.

2. I don't know. It could be because Magna was trying to throw some red herrings just in case he was lynched. It could be that he just wanted to look better than RadiantCowbells if he anticipated a push from Radiant as the best way to discredit him would be to not be on the lynch that Radiant was pushing with all his credibility on the line. It could be that he thought hard-pushing both mislynches D1 and D2 would cause people to start wondering about him. There are a ton of motives I could see. But it does seem out-of-place that he defended both jmo16mla AND Snarky.

[OceanWind]

The most striking thing about her townplay was that immediately upon replacing in, she suspected a strong player that hadn't received much suspicion before and aggressively went after them.

And in

what

realm is going after

Imperium

not qualify as doing this?

I was thinking about this as well. I don't think you ever seriously intended to go after them. I think you wanted them to townread you upon Snarky's townflip because the entirety of your read on them is based on Snarky flipping mafia. It's almost as if you "knew" Snarky was mafia so when he's town, that would absolve you. It also absolves from having to push Imperium anymore since you no longer have any reason to. They weren't protecting a partner after all.

I did a similar thing in my first newbie game. I bussed my partner (GoodMorning) while saying that if she flipped town, a townie (Ether) was likely the culprit setting me up, and repeated this many times. After GoodMorning flipped mafia, Ether strongly townread me.

You know snarky hadn't flipped yet here, he could totally have been trolling, but you feel 100% confident on calling him town here. And why do you think we'd call Ranger town based on her read on us due to Snarky???

I don't normally assume that people troll in twilight. There's no reason to. I did wonder if Church was trolling though but that's a different case.

I didn't necessarily think you'd call Ranger town. But I explained Ranger's possible motivation for playing the way she did by using the example of my newbie game.

[OceanWind]

@Imperium - are you still townreading MagnaOfIllusion. If so, why?

[Imperium]

At the moment I'm not calling anyone anything until I reread the game.

[Imperium]

@Imperium

– Again you were my number 1 Town read going into Night 2 and the kill doesn’t change that. I need you to talk to me and give me your reads on Ocean and Kill. And with some whys would be great. I have some things I think I am seeing but want confirmation from an outside source.

SnarkySnowman was scum in Diffusion of Power. I link to a post which I made as a summary of the game. Read it. I said, very specifically, SnarkySnowman was a scummy scumperson D1. Now, read RC's post.

VOTE: Ranger

Funny thing about this explanation – when you kept harping on how you knew Snarky was scum that couldn’t be explained this is the first game I came across with Snarky as flipped scum. I read his ISO and the conclusion I came to was “Whelp that doesn’t read like Snarky here at all”. Everyone else is free to follow the links and judge for themselves but Snarky’s ISO from that game shows much more verbosity and interaction (starting around ISO 9 is where it diverges visibly to me). In fact Post 396 / ISO 18 is such a radially different post than anything SS provided this game I can’t believe Ranger’s stance. 397 / ISO 19 the same – Snarky actually parses more than one person on his wagon.

I said I was reading snarky's games, why didn't you interact with me about that?

(Also, really would like that game to flip. I know how I would have voted based on outside of that game talk and would like to know if I would have been right - I'd have hammered Ranger btw)

[Imperium]

oh except i'm still town reading lowell's slot.

[Imperium]

How am I supposed to VCA if we don't have scumflip

barely anyone even knows how to do vca in the first place. You could, alternatively, scum hunt.

[Imperium]

So lowell who as far as I can tell replaced out of the last scum game he rolled isn't as involved or as scum hunty as the last game I read, didn't replace out of here but offered to stay in this game when he was force replaced as a hydra. I still think his reaction to ABR looking scummy matched mine and feel natural.

I'll review this on my reread this week, but this is one I like.

[Imperium]

Oh. Okay. Would have been nice to get a notice to that effect of some type.

That would have been nice idd.
About your hydra-question: do you mean for here? I don't know what the rules about that are, I never hydra'd before. But if the mod allows it I'm ok with finishing this game together.

It's completely up to the mod. Some mods allow it, some don't.

[Imperium]

Virtue why the change from Masquerade to Nos?

I've no idea what to make of the Lowell/Masquerade slot now.

When I came in, that wasn't the time to force a vote for sorting or contribution. The Lowell slot was still scummy as well and I could get behind it given the circumstances.

What's the deal with Ranger? I think that Imperium has been buddied to the point where they need a hard reset. I don't like the perpetual jumping in this game so haphazardly at the start, hyper confident and then wrong. This strongly suggests scum are aggressive and drowning out contrary opinions. I strongly don't think Ranger is scum based on game state.

Who does this suggest scum is?

[Imperium]

@Imperium

– Again you were my number 1 Town read going into Night 2 and the kill doesn’t change that. I need you to talk to me and give me your reads on Ocean and Kill. And with some whys would be great. I have some things I think I am seeing but want confirmation from an outside source.

Why are Imperium your number one townread? You found it suspicious that I voted Snarky but you didn't find Imperium's vote there suspect at all when a good part of their reasoning amounted to sheeping Radiant?

I also want to hear what things are that you seeing from me and Killthestory.

Can you decide what avenue you're going to push our snarky vote from? Either we sheeped RC, or we were trying to figure out his alignment, or we're sheeping RC.

And why the hell wasn't this an issue for you yesterday when we were voting snarky?????????????????????????

[OceanWind]

I also have to look back on Imperium. They're in my "town but with a some questionable actions" category. a) I don't understand the townread on MagnaOfIllusion at all and the immense confidence in it would like it explained if you guys show up before the thread locks. b) Their reasoning for voting Snarky essentially amounted to a deal with RadiantCowbells that they'll vote him if he votes ChurchOfMercy and I just don't think that's pro-town. For a while, I didn't think they were actually seriously going to follow through with it but they did which is surprising.

A) Magna
1) Why don't you have a town read on Magna?
2) Why did you want it explained before the thread locked???
3) Quite frankly, at this moment the only reason I have concern about magna is because you keep asking and I think you could be partnered.

B) Snarky
1) Did you not notice that ever since day one we had Snarky as our second scum read?
2) We've had our vote on Snarky for quite a long time, did you ask about it before now? If not, why not?
3) Did our scum read on Snarky confuse you in any way? Was our reasoning anti-town?
4) Why did you vote Snarky?
5) Is there something wrong with listening to someone else who had a strong read who listened to us when we had a strong read?

C) Miscellaneous

1) Did you or did you not argue with Ranger about how her accusations made no sense if we were competent players?
2) Why are you casting such a wide ass net?

A) Read the thread. I feel like I'm repeating myself constantly. My post where I express suspicion of Magna is only a few posts above the one you quoted. Now that I've answered your question, please answer mine - what was the basis for your townread on Magna?

B) You did have Snarky as a second scumread D1 but based on your posts towards Ranger, you seemed a lot more confident there. I'd have expected you to switch to Ranger when Magna, I, and Ollie kickstarted a wagon there but you never reacted to that which I found odd because Ranger was your primary focus of suspicion.

I voted Snarky because Ranger's ATE made me second-guess my read a bit to the point I found Ranger and Snarky equally suspicious. But Ranger was answering questions and making a sincere effort to play the game while Snarky was ignoring everything directed at him. I felt that there was no way I could get a better read on Snarky but that if I talked to Ranger more and saw her play for a longer time, I may be able to deduce her alignment with more confidence. On the off-chance I was wrong, I'd have much preferred Ranger being alive later in the game than Snarky, and with my suspicion on both of them being roughly equal, I thought a Snarky lynch would be more useful.

Firstly, I don't think way you and Radiant have played the first two days is optimal play. You are not the only two players in the game so the you-scratch-my-back-and-I'll-scratch-yours fails to take into account that lynches are decided by the town as a whole. Secondly, you started the day saying that you suspected Radiant and agreed with my case. Then apparently something made you second guess on Radiant (you never said what this was), and then you turned around and helped Radiant with his lynch. You didn't at any point state a townread on Radiant, simply saying that you don't know anymore.

C) I stand by my comments that a you-Snarky partnership doesn't make sense and I think Ranger's suggestion of that was a shallow read. I do think a you-Magna partnership makes sense as does a partnership between you and Ranger.

[Imperium]

Gods seriously if you're going to sign up as an alt, fucking play as an alt. Being all like oh "I know x player does y' is shit and you should not do that. If you're going to act with your knowledge, just freaking play as yourself.

[OceanWind]

@Imperium

– Again you were my number 1 Town read going into Night 2 and the kill doesn’t change that. I need you to talk to me and give me your reads on Ocean and Kill. And with some whys would be great. I have some things I think I am seeing but want confirmation from an outside source.

Why are Imperium your number one townread? You found it suspicious that I voted Snarky but you didn't find Imperium's vote there suspect at all when a good part of their reasoning amounted to sheeping Radiant?

I also want to hear what things are that you seeing from me and Killthestory.

Can you decide what avenue you're going to push our snarky vote from? Either we sheeped RC, or we were trying to figure out his alignment, or we're sheeping RC.

And why the hell wasn't this an issue for you yesterday when we were voting snarky?????????????????????????

You misunderstood the intent of the question. I was accusing Magna of treating you and me inconsistently, not making a statement about your vote.

[Imperium]

I also have to look back on Imperium. They're in my "town but with a some questionable actions" category. a) I don't understand the townread on MagnaOfIllusion at all and the immense confidence in it would like it explained if you guys show up before the thread locks. b) Their reasoning for voting Snarky essentially amounted to a deal with RadiantCowbells that they'll vote him if he votes ChurchOfMercy and I just don't think that's pro-town. For a while, I didn't think they were actually seriously going to follow through with it but they did which is surprising.

A) Magna
1) Why don't you have a town read on Magna?
2) Why did you want it explained before the thread locked???
3) Quite frankly, at this moment the only reason I have concern about magna is because you keep asking and I think you could be partnered.

B) Snarky
1) Did you not notice that ever since day one we had Snarky as our second scum read?
2) We've had our vote on Snarky for quite a long time, did you ask about it before now? If not, why not?
3) Did our scum read on Snarky confuse you in any way? Was our reasoning anti-town?
4) Why did you vote Snarky?
5) Is there something wrong with listening to someone else who had a strong read who listened to us when we had a strong read?

C) Miscellaneous

1) Did you or did you not argue with Ranger about how her accusations made no sense if we were competent players?
2) Why are you casting such a wide ass net?

A) Read the thread. I feel like I'm repeating myself constantly. My post where I express suspicion of Magna is only a few posts above the one you quoted. Now that I've answered your question, please answer mine - what was the basis for your townread on Magna?

B) You did have Snarky as a second scumread D1 but based on your posts towards Ranger, you seemed a lot more confident there. I'd have expected you to switch to Ranger when Magna, I, and Ollie kickstarted a wagon there but you never reacted to that which I found odd because Ranger was your primary focus of suspicion.

I voted Snarky because Ranger's ATE made me second-guess my read a bit to the point I found Ranger and Snarky equally suspicious. But Ranger was answering questions and making a sincere effort to play the game while Snarky was ignoring everything directed at him. I felt that there was no way I could get a better read on Snarky but that if I talked to Ranger more and saw her play for a longer time, I may be able to deduce her alignment with more confidence. On the off-chance I was wrong, I'd have much preferred Ranger being alive later in the game than Snarky, and with my suspicion on both of them being roughly equal, I thought a Snarky lynch would be more useful.

Firstly, I don't think way you and Radiant have played the first two days is optimal play. You are not the only two players in the game so the you-scratch-my-back-and-I'll-scratch-yours fails to take into account that lynches are decided by the town as a whole. Secondly, you started the day saying that you suspected Radiant and agreed with my case. Then apparently something made you second guess on Radiant (you never said what this was), and then you turned around and helped Radiant with his lynch. You didn't at any point state a townread on Radiant, simply saying that you don't know anymore.

C) I stand by my comments that a you-Snarky partnership doesn't make sense and I think Ranger's suggestion of that was a shallow read. I do think a you-Magna partnership makes sense as does a partnership between you and Ranger.

A) You didn't answer my question on Magna. If it's so easy, quote it? It's really super easy to link to the posts. So, do that?

B) I did feel more confident in a Ranger scum read. In fact, Nacho's first response upon an RC kill was it was a Ranger kill.

Can you please point out what Ranger ATE made you change your vote from Ranger to Snarky???

(I'll save you the effort. You changed your vote to Snarky when Snarky said that we should lynch someone other than Ranger. Just so you know, that is anti-town and actually scummy because according to your player type there's no reason why you should vote someone from an emotional response from a player like Snarky.)

You're free to re-rationalize that.

The rest of this is mumbo jumbo bullshit that you, as a super serious rational player cannot be serious about.

Yeah, in night we had a theory we decided was wrong when RC started posting day two. His posting changed that. I don't get your point? He was town, or did you forget that? We were right to second guess our over night theory. Oh wait, isn't killthestory town for his read changes? Why do you have a problem with ours?

I never said we were the only two people in town and two people voting on one lynch doesn't make things happen. I'd like you to elaborate on this point a bit, could you please?

C) I've love to see that case. Bring it boy.