Mini 1794: Gunslingers Ahoy! {Game Over}

[TehBrawlGuy]

People keep saying that self voting is bad, but I don't think any one has said why it's bad yet

I did.

I don't know what you're trying to say

I'm saying that while it is (almost) never a good idea to selfvote as Town, it can occasionally be useful to do it as Scum in specific circumstances. Doing so would not be a conventional play, but I can see it being something I'd do.

i.e. if I was clearly about to get lynched as scum and one or more of my scummates hadn't voted yet, I might selfhammer to stop them from trying to save me or bussing and hammering awkwardly, and also to stop any Town player from hammering and looking Town for it.

If that doesn't make sense to you then don't worry, and just follow the rule of never selfvoting. Like every rule, there are exceptions (I personally am fond of doing it as both alignments to break RVS), but they're rare enough you can just pretend they don't exist and be fine.

tl;dr Selfvoting ends the phase earlier, deprives us of VCA and general time for people to post and make content. If you are Town, you don't do it for those reasons. If you're Scum, you don't care if you're doing something AntiTown, for obvious reasons.

While I'm reasonably sure yours was out of genuine emotion, it's a null tell at best and a scum tell at worst, so it naturally moves you further toward a scum lean.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I voted chilledtea because this is what I'm kind of feeling right now until I get convinced otherwise and I assumed other people would hop on the wagon as they've also kind of threw chilled in the scum pile, but I noticed

almost slight resistance to putting chilledtea on the wagon,

not from anyone in particular just in general

Interesting. I haven't really noticed that, but I guess you have a point seeing as how nobody is voting him even though most of us say we think he's suspicious

VOTE: chilledtea

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not voting him for several reasons:

1) He's not caught up. I can't read how he behaves under pressure when he's not reading the thread.
2) He's made 4, now 5 posts. There's not really a whole lot you can do in 5 posts to jump to the top of my scumlist.
3) He eventually has to start posting. He's either going to get replaced, prod-dodge and lurk, or start posting. If he lurks, we vigilante/gunsling/lynch whatever him after he does it. In either of the other two cases, we can get a much better read on his slot then, which is when I'll decide if he's worth a vote.

What do you think voting chilledtea accomplishes right now?

[Accountant]

@Chumba:

I can't work with you if you're going to adopt such an obstinate, close minded, arrogant attitude.

[BlackStar]

People keep saying that self voting is bad, but I don't think any one has said why it's bad yet

I did.

I don't know what you're trying to say

I'm saying that while it is (almost) never a good idea to selfvote as Town, it can occasionally be useful to do it as Scum in specific circumstances. Doing so would not be a conventional play, but I can see it being something I'd do.

i.e. if I was clearly about to get lynched as scum and one or more of my scummates hadn't voted yet, I might selfhammer to stop them from trying to save me or bussing and hammering awkwardly, and also to stop any Town player from hammering and looking Town for it.

If that doesn't make sense to you then don't worry, and just follow the rule of never selfvoting. Like every rule, there are exceptions (I personally am fond of doing it as both alignments to break RVS), but they're rare enough you can just pretend they don't exist and be fine.

tl;dr Selfvoting ends the phase earlier,

deprives us of VCA and general time for people to post and make content

. If you are Town, you don't do it for those reasons. If you're Scum, you don't care if you're doing something AntiTown, for obvious reasons.

While I'm reasonably sure yours was out of genuine emotion, it's a null tell at best and a scum tell at worst, so it naturally moves you further toward a scum lean.

Before I did it, the game was just you, me chum a and accountant repeating the same things over and over again. Everybody else wasn't posting and it looked like you were all ready to end the day anyway. But after I did it, people who weren't active became active because we started wondering where they were. So it created more discussion and extended the day

[BlackStar]

I voted chilledtea because this is what I'm kind of feeling right now until I get convinced otherwise and I assumed other people would hop on the wagon as they've also kind of threw chilled in the scum pile, but I noticed

almost slight resistance to putting chilledtea on the wagon,

not from anyone in particular just in general

Interesting. I haven't really noticed that, but I guess you have a point seeing as how nobody is voting him even though most of us say we think he's suspicious

VOTE: chilledtea

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not voting him for several reasons:

1) He's not caught up. I can't read how he behaves under pressure when he's not reading the thread.
2) He's made 4, now 5 posts. There's not really a whole lot you can do in 5 posts to jump to the top of my scumlist.
3) He eventually has to start posting. He's either going to get replaced, prod-dodge and lurk, or start posting. If he lurks, we vigilante/gunsling/lynch whatever him after he does it. In either of the other two cases, we can get a much better read on his slot then, which is when I'll decide if he's worth a vote.

What do you think voting chilledtea accomplishes right now?

I half expect him to pop up any minute now and say that he's about to start catching up. Votes pressure people to play

[TehBrawlGuy]

People keep saying that self voting is bad, but I don't think any one has said why it's bad yet

I did.

I don't know what you're trying to say

I'm saying that while it is (almost) never a good idea to selfvote as Town, it can occasionally be useful to do it as Scum in specific circumstances. Doing so would not be a conventional play, but I can see it being something I'd do.

i.e. if I was clearly about to get lynched as scum and one or more of my scummates hadn't voted yet, I might selfhammer to stop them from trying to save me or bussing and hammering awkwardly, and also to stop any Town player from hammering and looking Town for it.

If that doesn't make sense to you then don't worry, and just follow the rule of never selfvoting. Like every rule, there are exceptions (I personally am fond of doing it as both alignments to break RVS), but they're rare enough you can just pretend they don't exist and be fine.

tl;dr Selfvoting ends the phase earlier,

deprives us of VCA and general time for people to post and make content

. If you are Town, you don't do it for those reasons. If you're Scum, you don't care if you're doing something AntiTown, for obvious reasons.

While I'm reasonably sure yours was out of genuine emotion, it's a null tell at best and a scum tell at worst, so it naturally moves you further toward a scum lean.

Before I did it, the game was just you, me chum a and accountant repeating the same things over and over again. Everybody else wasn't posting and it looked like you were all ready to end the day anyway. But after I did it, people who weren't active became active because we started wondering where they were. So it created more discussion and extended the day

First off, you doing it didn't create any of those things. Everyone else showed up and started posting simply because they did, it's not as if the content of the thread made them show up.
Secondly, you put yourself at L-1, which is a cardinal sin. If some opportunistic Scum or hammer-happy DerpTown showed up, none of the good things that have happened since would've taken place, because you'd just be dead and the phase would be over.

[TehBrawlGuy]

What do you think voting chilledtea accomplishes right now?

I half expect him to pop up any minute now and say that he's about to start catching up. Votes pressure people to play

You mean like:

Guys, my internet had some issues. I haven't read anything from page 12 so I will need time to catch up again.

[TehBrawlGuy]

What do you think voting chilledtea accomplishes right now?

I half expect him to pop up any minute now and say that he's about to start catching up. Votes pressure people to play

You mean like:

Guys, my internet had some issues. I haven't read anything from page 12 so I will need time to catch up again.

[BlackStar]

People keep saying that self voting is bad, but I don't think any one has said why it's bad yet

I did.

I don't know what you're trying to say

I'm saying that while it is (almost) never a good idea to selfvote as Town, it can occasionally be useful to do it as Scum in specific circumstances. Doing so would not be a conventional play, but I can see it being something I'd do.

i.e. if I was clearly about to get lynched as scum and one or more of my scummates hadn't voted yet, I might selfhammer to stop them from trying to save me or bussing and hammering awkwardly, and also to stop any Town player from hammering and looking Town for it.

If that doesn't make sense to you then don't worry, and just follow the rule of never selfvoting. Like every rule, there are exceptions (I personally am fond of doing it as both alignments to break RVS), but they're rare enough you can just pretend they don't exist and be fine.

tl;dr Selfvoting ends the phase earlier,

deprives us of VCA and general time for people to post and make content

. If you are Town, you don't do it for those reasons. If you're Scum, you don't care if you're doing something AntiTown, for obvious reasons.

While I'm reasonably sure yours was out of genuine emotion, it's a null tell at best and a scum tell at worst, so it naturally moves you further toward a scum lean.

Before I did it, the game was just you, me chum a and accountant repeating the same things over and over again. Everybody else wasn't posting and it looked like you were all ready to end the day anyway. But after I did it, people who weren't active became active because we started wondering where they were. So it created more discussion and extended the day

First off, you doing it didn't create any of those things. Everyone else showed up and started posting simply because they did, it's not as if the content of the thread made them show up.
Secondly, you put yourself at L-1, which is a cardinal sin. If some opportunistic Scum or hammer-happy DerpTown showed up, none of the good things that have happened since would've taken place, because you'd just be dead and the phase would be over.

You'd still be able to talk about the people who were on my wagon, because some of them would've been scum. We would've narrowed down the lynchpool

[BlackStar]

What do you think voting chilledtea accomplishes right now?

I half expect him to pop up any minute now and say that he's about to start catching up. Votes pressure people to play

You mean like:

Guys, my internet had some issues. I haven't read anything from page 12 so I will need time to catch up again.

Exactly. Dunnstral voted him and he showed up

[TehBrawlGuy]

You'd still be able to talk about the people who were on my wagon, because some of them would've been scum. We would've narrowed down the lynchpool

Ooooor we can not have you quicklynched and talk about the entire game, because everyone has had time to weigh in on you. It's not as if you getting axed right then and there would've torpedoed the game, but it's definitely inferior to just having more information on more players and would've helped the Scum more than anyone else.

Also, given how many people just hadn't shown up, and how TvT a lot of the early game appeared to be to a lot of players, it's distinctly possible that there weren't actually any Scum on your wagon.

[BlackStar]

Eh... good point

[Accountant]

BlackStar reads list now please.

[BlackStar]

chumba,
Brawl, Derek12, accountant
Null zefiend, Dunnstral, transcend
Scum lean murdercat, chilledtea

Everyone else hasn't really said anything so I can't read them. Your turn

[MURDERCAT]

I only finished the FIRST page of my catch-up and I already have to address points that are either misrepping me or casting shade on my thought process.

@MURDERCAT

Well I commented on Black star. Generally I think those that have jumped on weakly are more likely to be scum such as zefiend and chumba. TBG's posts I could see coming from scum or town. Same for you, maybe a slight town lean.

I placed the initial vote on you (which was RVS by the way) so the claim that I "jumped on weakly" is flat out false. I held my vote on you while pressuring you because that is how games get started: with a wagon to see how the wagonee handles pressure. At the current moment in this time-travel, you are still handling pressure very poorly. I am not the only one that has pressured you and noticed that you were beginning to flail by dodging questions and using circular logic.

If he was reading closely it should have been clear what I was saying.

Here is the post in question:

I'm not going to pretend my case is stronger than it is. My initial reasoning was very weak. Sure. It was based on a page of RVS. I disagree with this if you replace poor with weak:

Breaking RVS does not serve as justification for voting with poor reasoning.

Then

I found the way he left the discussion after casting a vote suspicious

.

It is very clear what you said. Your suspicion is based on an entirely false assertion: that he "left the discussion." That is the definition of misrepresentation.

I'm getting tired of arguing about this. He placed a vote and then posted fluff while accountant followed up. He rejoined the discussion after I called him out on it. I had other posts that explained this, which you must have missed. I won't be commenting on this anymore as I've made myself extremely clear multiple times.

[chilledtea]

I don't see how the number of posts in the thread has anything to do with it. His amount of content compared to the others was poor when the thread had 4 pages. If you pretend that we've had no more than 4 pages, and look purely at pages 2, 3, and 4, (i.e. all of chumba's posts) and look at how much real content he has compared to dunn/accountant/mcat, he just doesn't stack up.

It's not that he hasn't given enough content. It's that he was

here and posting

and yet didn't create much of any.

A lot of people hadn't even posted though so comparing signal to noise ratio at that point is a bit silly.
Being here and posting doesn't mean that much, especially during rvs.


I am catching up now and I will be replying to any concerns (which I am seeing there are some) as I read them. If I am unable to catchup to everything then I will continue them at a later date.

[chilledtea]

Also, again, my main point is that he voted mcat with the only stated reasoning being "wagons are fun", proceeded to make null points, and only actually indicated any real suspicion of mcat 2 pages later when the wagon was clearly going.

I just considered that as rvs, if I remember correctly. A lot of people theorize that wagons help a lot during rvs.

[Accountant]

chumba,
Brawl, Derek12, accountant
Null zefiend, Dunnstral, transcend
Scum lean murdercat, chilledtea

Everyone else hasn't really said anything so I can't read them. Your turn

Why am I town lean? You've spent the last few pages emphasizing how scummy I was.

[Accountant]

Chilledtea I want a thorough reads list with thoughts on each player now please. You've been contributing next to nothing and I want to hear from you.

[MURDERCAT]

chumba,
Brawl, Derek12, accountant
Null zefiend, Dunnstral, transcend
Scum lean murdercat, chilledtea

Everyone else hasn't really said anything so I can't read them. Your turn

Why am I town lean? You've spent the last few pages emphasizing how scummy I was.

Yeah wtf.

[MURDERCAT]

I'll do a full reads list tonight when I have some time. Hard though with only some people posting.

[BlackStar]

chumba,
Brawl, Derek12, accountant
Null zefiend, Dunnstral, transcend
Scum lean murdercat, chilledtea

Everyone else hasn't really said anything so I can't read them. Your turn

Why am I town lean? You've spent the last few pages emphasizing how scummy I was.

By the way, I ISOed accountant and I don't think that he's scum anymore. I think my biggest problem with him was that he was death tunneling me but his posts from before that were pretty decent. And rereading everything made me see where he was coming from with his scumread on me

[TehBrawlGuy]

Chilledtea I want a thorough reads list with thoughts on each player now please. You've been contributing next to nothing and I want to hear from you.

To add onto this: I would like to see one now, from where you are time traveling, and then another one once you're fully up to date.

[chilledtea]

Chilledtea I want a thorough reads list with thoughts on each player now please. You've been contributing next to nothing and I want to hear from you.

To add onto this: I would like to see one now, from where you are time traveling, and then another one once you're fully up to date.

You want a reads list from where I am now?

I have already said that you and acc are town leans though, with black as scum lean and dunn, chumba as null. I said this in my first post. It hasn't changed.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Chilledtea I want a thorough reads list with thoughts on each player now please. You've been contributing next to nothing and I want to hear from you.

To add onto this: I would like to see one now, from where you are time traveling, and then another one once you're fully up to date.

You want a reads list from where I am now?

I have already said that you and acc are town leans though, with black as scum lean and dunn, chumba as null. I said this in my first post. It hasn't changed.

Wasn't sure how far it was between that post and where you are now. Thanks.