kuribo in Wonderland - [Game Over]

[G[o]dz]

I was asking Nacho, not you. I'm trying to get a read on Nacho and your interference is not helping.

I don't really care. Why do you think any answer he gives is going to help you get a read?

[Antihero]

Godz Antihero is never getting shot and shouldn't so do something else

kuribo explained his zakk townread

your turn

[kuribo]

dz post_id=7935976 time=1463860517 user_id=15399 post_num=444]

These posts is where the potential for toxicity came from

None of those posts would have happened if he explained his read and none of those posts necessitated further "toxicity" if he explained his read.

The would have/should have doesn't really matter; he felt he was being insulted, and generally a person's response to feeling insulted is insulting back, hence toxicity.

346 was hostile enough that had he directed it at me instead, we'd probably have had about 20 pages of shouting in the morning

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7935968 time=1463860303 user_id=15399 post_num=442]If the things prior to #330 were related to a scum read on me, then why was he talking about "policy execution" rather than a scum read, in your opinion?

I believe that the reason that he thought you were scum were based on 275, which was the post that kuribo and I both expressed dislike of. I believe that he referred to policy executing you has more for your "I agree/I disagree" series of posts more than anything else.

Have you ever used "policy" to describe a scum read? Have you ever seen anyone use "policy" to describe a scum read?

That Antihero has to have strong reads thanks to his response to Spiffeh?

... That he can (and does) have weak reads (as evidenced by his read on Spiffeh) but is unwilling to share other weak reads because... <insert bad reason>

[Spiffeh]

Why is Brian Skies being town read?

He's exclusively talked about the king election

It's an easy conversation to hide behind to act like you're contributing when he's only cozying up to the potential kings for today

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7935983 time=1463860767 user_id=15399 post_num=446]I think he'd avoid it if he thought it would make him look worse, yes.

Why do you think that he thought that giving out a couple of reasonless reads would make him look worse? Why would he bring them up if he thought elaborating on them would make him look worse?

dz post_id=7935983 time=1463860767 user_id=15399 post_num=446]Why don't you? Do you think his approach to the game is a genuine one? Do you think he's more likely to come up with a long list of names he wants dead and a non-existent list of names he doesn't?

I think it's less what reads that he has and more what reads that he's willing to share; I think it's smarter in Kingmaker setups to be far more cautious about town reads than you should be in a normal game (since incorrect town reads are more likely to lead to scum kings which are horrible for town), and for some people, being more cautious is waiting for a little while before talking about those reads.

[Spiffeh]

Nacho what are you trying to accomplish with this conversation?

[Spiffeh]

Godz Antihero is never getting shot and shouldn't so do something else

kuribo explained his zakk townread

your turn

Gut

[G[o]dz]

I'm not going to pretend #346 wasn't hostile but none of that needed to happen if Antihero just explained his read (i.e. not doing the very thing he was claiming is really bad for the game state). And since the entire point of it was that he was deliberately not explaining where his read on me came from when asked about it (go figure, still hasn't happened), it didn't need to continue past the point he explained it.

Backing off for reasons of "toxicity" is a cop-out - it's pretty fucking clear that I wanted to know his reasons for the read on me (not the read on zakk, which I didn't even ask about).

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7935976 time=1463860517 user_id=15399 post_num=444]

These posts is where the potential for toxicity came from

None of those posts would have happened if he explained his read and none of those posts necessitated further "toxicity" if he explained his read.

The would have/should have doesn't really matter; he felt he was being insulted, and generally a person's response to feeling insulted is insulting back, hence toxicity.

346 was hostile enough that had he directed it at me instead, we'd probably have had about 20 pages of shouting in the morning

It was blatantly toxic though; while I can see scum sneakily egging people on and denying it later, I can't really see scum blatantly egging someone on and denying it later unless it was part of their personality.

[Antihero]

Godz Antihero is never getting shot and shouldn't so do something else

kuribo explained his zakk townread

your turn

Gut

ok

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936001 time=1463861165 user_id=15399 post_num=453]Have you ever used "policy" to describe a scum read? Have you ever seen anyone use "policy" to describe a scum read?

I'm not the player to use "policy" descriptions in general, but I have been irritated enough with players that I've been scum reading where "policy" could be used to describe part of why I wanted them to die, if that makes sense.

[Spiffeh]

I think Nacho might be scum

[Nachomamma8]

Antihero, why did you hold off on elaborating on the back pocket reads earlier? I understand that you were trying to gauge whether there were good reads or not, but am not sure why that step in particular was necessary when expressing them most likely would have helped to strengthen the read and when expressing them didn't take away your ability to go back on them later.

[Nachomamma8]

Why is Brian Skies being town read?

He's exclusively talked about the king election

It's an easy conversation to hide behind to act like you're contributing when he's only cozying up to the potential kings for today

I'm not town reading Brian Skies, but I don't think talking about the king election when that's all that was happening is particularly alignment indicative.

[G[o]dz]

Why do you think that he thought that giving out a couple of reasonless reads would make him look worse? Why would he bring them up if he thought elaborating on them would make him look worse?

It's a subconscious thing. Scum players in general try to make as few perceived enemies as they can. Especially if he's not a particularly strong scum player in the first place, he'd want to not make enemies of players who are likely to get their way if they sense bullshit.

I think it's less what reads that he has and more what reads that he's willing to share; I think it's smarter in Kingmaker setups to be far more cautious about town reads than you should be in a normal game (since incorrect town reads are more likely to lead to scum kings which are horrible for town), and for some people, being more cautious is waiting for a little while before talking about those reads.

That's bullshit. There's no reason you cannot talk about reads - that doesn't lead to anything more than it does in a regular game unless you're acting on reads that you aren't very confident about, in which case that's your own fault for being inept. Talking about your reads isn't the same as acting on them and electing a king based on something not very strong...

I'm not the player to use "policy" descriptions in general, but I have been irritated enough with players that I've been scum reading where "policy" could be used to describe part of why I wanted them to die, if that makes sense.

The situation you're describing here seems clearly different to what actually happened in this game.

Up to the point where he said "policy execution", do you think it makes sense for him, scum-reading me, to say that after not mentioning anything related to a scum read on me if he was scum reading me?

[Spiffeh]

Right and I'm asking how someone can be calling him "obvtown"

[hiplop]

I think Nacho might be scum

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho what are you trying to accomplish with this conversation?

I think that Godz is town, and I think that Antihero is town. I think that the chances of Godz changing his mind on Antihero without someone who is actually trying to talk to him about his points is heavily unlikely. I think that changing his mind here is a productive thing to focus on because changing his mind on that read will make him a more electable King whether for now or in the future and because I think that he's an aggressive enough player where him focusing elsewhere would be good for town. I also think that Antihero can get annoyed with that sort of thing as town and feel that he's less likely to play well when someone's railing against him in the way that Godz is.

[G[o]dz]

I doubt talking to me about my read on Antihero is going to make me change my mind when he continues to avoid doing anything I want him to do, just FYI.

Another reason I don't like him backing off when he did is that it gives him this smokescreen to hide behind because, unless someone else demands it, he can pretend he's ignoring me for "toxicity" reasons or something like that.

[Spiffeh]

I think Nacho might be scum

[SirCakez]

Godz vs Anti does not look like TvT at all Nacho.
Spiff, is gut the only thing you have to townread zakk?

[G[o]dz]

Nachomamma8,

If you want me to see Antihero is town, then ask him these questions and see if he answers:

Where did your scum read on Godz come from? Could you go into detail about this?
Why are you claiming the zakk read is "meta-based" if you didn't have enough of a grasp of zakk's meta that you needed to ask a question about how he always acts?

If the questions are coming from someone else and he still chooses to avoid them, then he's doing what he says is bad for the game state to prove some point.

[Spiffeh]

Cakez in case it wasn't clear I'd like to know why you think Brian Skies is obvtown

[Spiffeh]

Nacho I'm finding it very difficult to buy that you are engaging Godz like this to make him a more electable King.