kuribo in Wonderland - [Game Over]

[G[o]dz]

he will still have to engage with those who have a more proven track record of reading him, and he will still have to fake scum hunting other places

This is true and part of why I am not so concerned at the moment with pushing him. I am interested in seeing whether he ever does this. I expect nothing more than a surface-level appearance of scum-hunting but we will see, I suppose.

My intention is not to be your messenger

Then speculating about things like "I think he thought this" without him explicitly saying so is meaningless. You're not going to convince me of anything. And if your aim is to convince me to look elsewhere, then this is pointless.

[G[o]dz]

To be fair, Godz is the type of player who usually doesn't feel genuine, aside from when he is professing his love for cupcakes.

Should I have a town read on you, Kastuki?

[Skybird]

dz post_id=7935994 time=1463861006 user_id=15399 post_num=450]

I was asking Nacho, not you. I'm trying to get a read on Nacho and your interference is not helping.

I don't really care. Why do you think any answer he gives is going to help you get a read?

Because I could have had a conversation about his answer. Now the moment is past and I will engage him a different way. Next time, I direct a question at a player, don't butt in. I ask plenty of questions to the crowd so you will have plenty of chances to answer.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936072 time=1463863310 user_id=15399 post_num=486]You're conflating two different things, so I don't really understand your point here.

You thought that Antihero could possibly be scum for holding back his scum reads because you thought that he might be trying to avoid making more enemies. You also thought that it was unnatural that Antihero had less scum reads than town reads because it was unnatural.

I believe that a scum player who was too afraid to mention names of people that he was scum reading because he was too afraid to make enemies would also be the type of player who would be the type of player who as scum would mention town reads more than they would mention scum reads since it would mean that they could give their genuine opinions on things and would also avoid making enemies. Does this make sense to you?

dz post_id=7936072 time=1463863310 user_id=15399 post_num=486]He claims he has more scum reads (or people he's suspicious of) than he's talking about,

which means he has a quite-large list of players he's suspicious of in comparison to players he's not

, and I don't think this is normal (especially this early in day one).

I don't think that the bolded is a fair interpretation of his "I have a couple more ideas of who to shoot" post. He had problems with about four people at that point in time; none of those problems were particularly significant (as evidenced by his Spiffeh read being entirely based on Spiffeh's zack!scum read and as evidenced by his Cakez read at the time being based on the negging on Axel point), which means that the reads were less explicit scum reads and more "people who have done things that I'm bothered by but don't really know why". I don't think having four people who he was uneasy with at the time was hugely abnormal, either; you had two scum reads at that point (and finding things off about two more people is not so ridiculous IMO) and just because he didn't state any town reads doesn't mean that he didn't have any.

dz post_id=7936072 time=1463863310 user_id=15399 post_num=486](he doesn't want to have to throw out names and find a potential excuse later for them)

I don't understand why he would say that he had more names if he didn't want to have to fake reasons for them. Why wouldn't he just say that he was scum reading zakk for the reasons he talked about and spiffeh for the townread on zakk?

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936137 time=1463864660 user_id=15399 post_num=498]The point is that I doubt he'd use that choice of words in the first place with a scum read on me, given what had taken place in the game at the time. And the point is that if he were scum-reading me, he would have stated so (possibly instead of) saying "policy execute", which has connotations of not caring about the person's alignment.

Policy execute implies that you want a person dead because they are annoying you more than you want them dead because of an opinion of your alignment; this game was early enough where it wasn't likely that Antihero had a very strong scum read on you at this point, so it's not all that unreasonable for Antihero's annoyance with you to outpace his scumread on you at that point.

I also think that, while I would very likely agree with you if someone else did this, this is an action that is well-within Antihero's meta: this page from Hope +1 is an example of Antihero's scumread on Wisdom late-game escalating into a policy read.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936150 time=1463865029 user_id=15399 post_num=500]Then speculating about things like "I think he thought this" without him explicitly saying so is meaningless. You're not going to convince me of anything. And if your aim is to convince me to look elsewhere, then this is pointless.

That's okay! From my end, it doesn't feel like you're dismissing my points for the sake of dismissing them, and that's enough for me to continue. I'm not just interacting with you because my intent is to convince you or bust; I'm listening to what you're saying and I'm going through and thinking about your points and I don't think that's ever a bad move to make.

[G[o]dz]

Using an example of someone talking about policy when they're explicitly scum reading someone doesn't really apply to here... I know you can scum read someone and want them dead for policy reasons...

[KittyMo]

UNVOTE:

fwiw I probably won't post much this day phase because I just got back from being out of town for a week and a half and am trying to make sure I graduate.

I also want to say kats and nacho are town and maybe a few more but I don't think I can back those up very well.

Try?

Also, the last page is really dumb, but anti is pretty town. Backing out to make the game not toxic is a super town thing to do,

especially from someone like anti

hm?

@anti- I didn't like Skybird's entrance because it seemed Contrivedly Congenial but her recent stuff w/r/t Nacho is much different. I sorta like the "back off" tone and sorta don't like the really self-aware/narratory bits of it. Do you have a read on her?

@Skybird- do you read Spiffeh well?

@camn- kuribo read?

@Brian- what did you get out of your questioning of implosion + Nacho?

@Fate- hi? are you ignoring me?

I was leaning town on Axelrod until his latest post (empty, getting to be overly setup-focused). I'm curious why Kagami thought it was +EV to mention the possibility of heroes.

[Katsuki]

dz post_id=7936183 time=1463866102 user_id=15399 post_num=501]

To be fair, Godz is the type of player who usually doesn't feel genuine, aside from when he is professing his love for cupcakes.

Should I have a town read on you, Kastuki?

Obviously.

[camn]

Kuribo read? Totally town.
Kind if unusual, actually.... everything he says I am all in 100% agreement.

[Nachomamma8]

You say that you won't elect someone to kill your scumreads in post 210. But then in 222 you state that the king you will elect will likely have similar reads to yours. I read that as having the same scum reads or mostly the same scum reads as you. So what were you trying to say in post 210?

I believe the optimal strategy in Kingmaker is to strip the king from all accountability and instead vote in Kings who are promising to vote your preferred lynch, and if they don't do exactly as they promise, kill them. I believe this because I believe that Kingmaker is a hard setup for town to play since they have even less of a voice in who gets lynched as usual, and as such, it's easier to lose interest and be apathetic which means that it's harder to find town reads in general. I also believe that Scum Kings can cause a lot of damage when kings; it's harder to hold people accountable for bad decisions than some players have argued.

However, I think that it's more fun to elect Kings and let kings be kings; in general, my plan will be to crown the people who I feel are having the best games; that means they need to be transparent to a certain degree (I don't know if they're having a good game if I don't know what their reads are), and that means they need to have good reasoning for their reads (I don't know whether someone has good reads or not without reasoning; if I'm electing someone because their reads match up with mine, then there's no reason why I shouldn't be campaigning for myself to get elected).

Does that make sense?

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936137 time=1463864660 user_id=15399 post_num=498]The point is that I doubt he'd use that choice of words in the first place with a scum read on me, given what had taken place in the game at the time.

"That choice of words" is meaning policy execute, correct? I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "what had taken place in the game at the time".

dz post_id=7936137 time=1463864660 user_id=15399 post_num=498]And the point is that if he were scum-reading me, he would have stated so (possibly instead of) saying "policy execute", which has connotations of not caring about the person's alignment.

This is the part that made me think that you thought it was scummy because he had a scumread on you and you thought escalating from a scumread to saying "policy execute" was scummy; the reason why I brought up that link was because Antihero specifically went from having a scumread on someone to saying that he was policy lynching them, which I thought was a similar choice of words and similar situation to here.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7935074 time=1463830580 user_id=15399 post_num=363]someone you think is town with good reads (reads that align with your own)

I want to elect someone who I think is having an abnormally good game. Reads that align well with my own is just something that you assume is happening since it's hard to believe that someone is kicking ass when they have reads that are the opposite of yours, but "similar reads to mine" isn't really the criteria I'm looking for, even though I know that what I'm saying doesn't make any sense.

[Nachomamma8]

Yes. I am currently voting Katsuki because, unlike Fate, he is actually making moves to scumhunt. Do you still stand behind your Fate vote?

I think that a fate that isn't scumhunting is more likely to hit scum than a Katsuki that is, though. So unless you're saying that you think Katsuki is substantially more likely town...

I don't think that Fate having a bad game is more likely to hit scum than Katsuki having a good game. I will never elect a player who doesn't feel like they're scum hunting, regardless of who they are.

[Nachomamma8]

I would love antihero dead tho

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

Also it should probably be stated that, unless something big happens, Katsuki will probably execute me for largely personal reasons if elected king, so people should probably be aware of that

I don't think that this is true; if Katsuki planned on game throwing based on a personal grudge (or wanted to policy lynch because he thought having you alive decreased chances of town winning), I'm fairly sure that he would have taken some public digs at you by now. If you're referring to this because of AFB, I think that he hates you less than you think he does.

[G[o]dz]

Re: policy execute (since I think this is a rather important point about when he started scum reading me)

Do you think it is normal behaviour (or even behaviour that had ever happened before) for someone who is scum reading someone else to not mention the scum read and instead say he wants that someone else lynched on policy?

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7936183 time=1463866102 user_id=15399 post_num=501]

To be fair, Godz is the type of player who usually doesn't feel genuine, aside from when he is professing his love for cupcakes.

Should I have a town read on you, Kastuki?

Obviously.

Oh. I must be doing it wrong, then. =(

Did I miss the part where you wrote a town post?

[SirCakez]

Wait lol I didn't even see that zakk wanted Anti executed. That's another scummy thing to add to the pile.

[implosion]

If there's one fucking thing my scum game ain't it's timid and self conscious

@Kittymo the last few pages make me think Nacho is town more strongly than before actually. I can see why people see it as somewhat scummy. The "make him electable as a future king" thing is weird. But it's the kind of thing that I could imagine myself coming up with as I type up a post on why the conversation is a good idea. Nacho is, for one reason or another, clearly deeply invested in this conversation given that it's been going on and on. I'm not sure why he would choose this tact as scum; it sort of lays him bare and looks somewhat sketchy at first glance. I don't remember his play in that game very well but his play here also very distinctly does not remind me of his play in the most recent game I had with him (where he was scum).

As for katsuki the reasons aren't really fresh in my mind so I'm gonna chalk it up to gut for now.

I also retract my scumread on kuribo. He's moderately town.

[Nachomamma8]

I kinda want to ask them if they have some pre-established drama. Antihero's response makes more sense if that's the case. Like "oh, we don't get along so I'm not going down this road again"

But Godz' immediate response of "get back here you lurker" followed by THE CASE THAT WOULDNT END doesn't feel town to me. It feels like he wanted an excuse to post a "solid" case. Although "get back here you lurker" almost feels town, the stuff around it doesn't. Especially saying "I don't think this is TvT."

Remember the scum theatre between me and Cowbell in that game a few weeks ago? Remember how fast Cow came up with a "case" on me for bullshit reasons, and how quickly it escalated? That's what it reminds me of.

I think their dislike of each other makes sense based on some of the digs they took at each other; I quoted Godz's piece earlier whereas Antihero probably offended him with the "policy execute" comment + "you act like you're above even trying" + "the only thing you've done is shitpost" etc., so it's not like this is coming from nowhere.

I think the case that wouldn't end is a pretty common end result when you feel insulted and you think the person who is insulting you is scum; some people try to bury them with cases (mastin), some person try to scream them dead (kuribo). I think the big difference between this and the Cowbell-Serene fight is that Godz is actually trying to push his case through based on its own merits whereas Cow tried to say that people should listen to him because if he was scum he would be bussing anyways and because he's great as town and of course he's right.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936602 time=1463874514 user_id=15399 post_num=516]Do you think it is normal behaviour (or even behaviour that had ever happened before) for someone who is scum reading someone else to not mention the scum read and instead say he wants that someone else lynched on policy?

I think it's normal behavior if the reasons they want them lynched are based more on policy than they are on a scumread.

[Nachomamma8]

Ok Godz is scum nvm. Execute this pls.

I don't think that it's particularly likely for Godz as scum to make that kind of post, especially if Antihero is town.

I'm not sure what to make of it, TBH. I've seen those two fight as TvT in other games before. I would say if I were to pick and choose, I'd lean more towards anti being scum as I don't think it was a bad push by godz.

Do you think that it's TvT or do you think that it's more likely that Antihero is scum?

[Nachomamma8]

I also have not explained my reads

Why is Godz being piled on for not doing so and not me?

The point at the time was that Godz attempted to explain his reads and the explanation was lacking.

Would he have offered that game up for meta though? Earlier he said "oh I just finished a scum game if you want to go read it"

Probably.
Someone who was in the game is playing here as well, so it's not like he is going to pretend that it doesn't exist, and it's not really unreasonable to assume that no one will read a past game even if you offer it up since no one does anyways. I mean even I have no intentions of following up on it <.<

[Nachomamma8]

KATSUKI:

My loyalty in you is wavering. Please remind me why you were once my one and only, or else I will begin campaigning for Kuribo, the reluctant KING OF THE PEOPLE.