kuribo in Wonderland - [Game Over]

[kuribo]

able to vote you for king unless your opinions change. I was planning to.

You say that like its a threat.

I don't want to be king at all right now. Maybe later, but on day 1? Where the only thing worse than my own initial reads are the reads of the people? No thanks.

Being day 1 king is like being king of Romania. It's nice if its important to you, but no one really cares.

My play, like that of 99% of the site, is shit on day 1. Get me some flips and something I can build upon, and then we'll talk. But for now, all we have is gut and meta. Day 1 in kingmaker is esp tough for towns because wagons are reversed: people vote their top town reads, they vote people who want the same people dead that they do. You can't really say "look at that wagon hop!" Because it's not really the same dynamic.

[G[o]dz]

That kind of behavior of substituting spec for content is also a bit suspect a priori.

Most people in the game were talking about the setup a lot early on - that's the kind of setup we're playing in, where that sort of thing is somewhat of a necessity. I do not think it's particularly damning that he chose to involve himself in those conversations, or at the very least, there's nothing conclusive just because he's done it as scum in another game.

If Nacho is town, scum are voting to be accountable for a town death, or voting to be non-accountable. In both cases, scum want to be on the Fate wagon (or at least off-wagon). This is also why I find it more than a little odd that Fate is calling out the Nacho wagon for being scummy, when there is little incentive for scum to be on it.

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read in a mafia game. Thank you for making my day brighter.

My guess would be the scumteam is in {skybird, implosion, brian, nacho, zakk, kittymo, godz}. Might be willing to append fate.

Scratch that. This is.

[G[o]dz]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/nitpick

Thank you very much for teaching me what nitpicking means. I am forever in your debt.

I have one request, though. I have read the definition and see nothing in the posts that you refer to as "nitpicking" that matches the definition. Perhaps this is caused by my own ineptitude, but could you explain what nitpicking you were referring to. Thank you in advance, kind sir.

I think it's ridiculous that you went, "ha, that doesn't line up with the order of events that your read came after mine" which is incredibly incosequential and minor.

How is it inconsequential if someone says "I did X so that's not true" when they didn't do X until much later?

Let's break this down in a simple to understand analogy, for those who might not be as quick of wit as others.

Let's say we have a person named "A" (who is really smart and handsome and cool and stuff). A has a flatmate named "B" (who isn't as cool). A tells B that he doesn't like him much as a flatmate. B then picks a piece of trash off the floor and puts it in the bin a few days later. B then asks A why A said he didn't like him as a flatmate and A explains that it's because he leaves stuff lying around on the ground all the time. B calls A a liar because he picked up a single piece of trash a few days after A complained.

Do you think it's wrong of A to point out that not only was it picking up a single piece of trash but that it happened after he complained?

Do you not see an issue here?

Not that, I mean the reasoning for each read.

So you're saying that it's scummy that I didn't go into depth explaining the reads or are you saying the actual reasoning is more likely to come from scum? In both cases, explain why.

Forcing through a misexecution on a strong player and buddying.

It's like you ripped your argument straight from a wiki page. Other than the fact that whether or not he's a strong player is questionable, you miss the point entirely when I ask what scum has to gain from it. Those aren't things that scum gain if it makes them look bad from it. Why would scum need to say something like that? Have you ever seen scum say something like that (and not be thought of in a negative manner for saying it)?

It's coasting, wanting a quickhammer, vague reads, take your pick, it's definitely scummy.

Yes, all of these things that are not actually scummy are certainly very scummy. Good point, well made.

Just so we're on the same page, define scummy for me.

[G[o]dz]

My tingling for Nacho began early on in the game, I think starting from the 200s-300s if I recall. My read here is independent from the past couple games that've occurred. I have my reasons for having scumpings, and they are more personal tells than share with the class tells.

Oh. : /

For a moment, I thought you were going to pretend to be town and explain why you think Nachomamma8 is scum, rather than hint at having actual reasons that you probably don't have.

I guess I was expecting too much from you, Kastuki. : (

[Katsuki]

Probably. Pretending to be town is so tiring, much easier just being letting it all hang loose.

[Cephrir]

able to vote you for king unless your opinions change. I was planning to.

You say that like its a threat.

not really, i was just looking forward to it!

[G[o]dz]

Kastuki, what do you think about Cephir's points about me being town? I think he makes some strong arguments.

[Cephrir]

Are you a muffin alt

[Cephrir]

i guess the 2011 join date would be a pretty long con

[implosion]

dz post_id=7944683 time=1464140911 user_id=15399 post_num=1201]Most people in the game were talking about the setup a lot early on - that's the kind of setup we're playing in, where that sort of thing is somewhat of a necessity. I do not think it's particularly damning that he chose to involve himself in those conversations, or at the very least, there's nothing conclusive just because he's done it as scum in another game.

It isn't that he setup specced (I'm guilty of that as well), it's that he setup specced and gave no reads for a couple of days. I.e. he was substituting setup speculation for actual content.

[Axelrod]

I gotta say Godz, I thought Anti was being more of the jeck in that exchange with you earlier, but you certainly seem to be trying to give him a run for his money with some of your recent stuff.

dz post_id=7944021 time=1464128869 user_id=15399 post_num=1167]

The way he intervened on Anti-Hero's behalf and his efforts over multiple posts to convince Godz of the error of his ways just felt weird and off.

Why?

This is going to be more of an answer than you probably want to hear. I actually went even more into this in the nit-picky post I didn't post, but, okay, it's like this:

If I'm Town, and I see a hostile exchange between two other players - and this was a pretty hostile exchange which escalated pretty quickly I think we can agree - and I also happen to think that both of the players involved in this hostile exchange are town - I don't do what Nacho did. Not the way he did it.

I might conceivably try and intervene. I might say something like "guys, guys, take it easy...." "This looks like a big misunderstanding to me....""Hey, (X), I think you're reading this wrong."; "(Y), I think you're over-reacting here...." etc. etc. I would

also

indicate that I was reading them both as Town, and I think that's rather important for people to understand where I'm coming from. This was not what Nacho did.

Nacho came in and talked exclusively to you. He told you your accusations were not fair. He agreed with Anti about (some post or other). He said he understood why Anti was getting so upset with what you were posting.

None of this went the other way as far as I could see. I did not see him trying to mediate with Anti. Telling him he was out of line or wrong about something he said about you. He was not trying to convince Anti that you were town. The whole thing was very one-sided, and for the life of me I would never have got the impression that he was town-reading you for it. Not the way he was posting. I would have rather got the other impression, except he wasn't exactly attacking you either. It was like he was just trying to shoot you down, and leave it at that. That is what I mean when I say his intervention was weird and off. I did not understand the purpose of it. I did not see the Townie motivation. I like to consider myself reasonably good at getting into other people's headspaces when trying to divine their motivations for posting, and I was not getting this.

Then he explained it and the explanation didn't seem to fit the behavior.

And then, when asked to explain why he was doing it, he said he was strongly Townreading Godz and was concerned about making Godz a more electable King in the future. Which, again, is just a weird and strange thing to say.

Why would he say that as scum if he didn't really think that's how he'd approach the game as town? i.e. He could have easily just said something like, "I think they're town and I want to stop in-fighting," or something along those lines and nobody would have batted an eye.

Ultimately, either it's something he's saying because he genuinely believes it's a good thing to do as town in this setup or it's something he's saying as scum because he genuinely believes it's a good thing to do as town in this setup.

I've never really understood this as a point against him.

Okay, the thing here is, obviously you make posts as scum that you *think* you would make if you were town. Everyone tries to do that. It's the name of the game. Some people are better at it than others. So the point of "why would he say that as scum" has never resonated very well with me. I think your suggestion here, of what he might have said, makes a lot more sense, yes. That might, indeed, have looked less suspicious. But he didn't say that. And you going, well, he

could

have said this other thing which wouldn't have sounded as suspicious, so the fact he didn't means he's less likely to be scum is just silliness to me.

I can easily see him (as scum) feeling like he was getting bogged down in that discussion with you, realizing that maybe he wasn't coming off so well, and looking for an exit strategy. And this whole thing where he (in my opinion) somewhat abruptly states that he's townreading both of you and thinks that changing your mind will make you a more electable king (again, it's very one-sided. He's not trying to make Anti more electable?) could just be something he came up with more or less on the fly.

Usually you don't develop super-town reads on people who are making bad/misguided attacks.

This... isn't at all true.

Yes it is?

I mean, I fully get that you can get a town read on someone who's making a terrible case, but I do not think that's the typical situation.

He also has a decided lack of scumreads.

I do not really find this concerning. Perhaps it would be in a regular setup (and even then, not so much), but this isn't exactly a regular setup. Do you think he's the sort of player who would have difficulty pretending to scum hunt as scum?

I also do not really have an issue with him qualifying his Skybird read and I don't really see why you do.

I don't know what sort of player he is. Is anyone that sort of player? i don't demand he have a fully formed comprehensive set of scum reads at all times, but if he's giving his reads and they're as weak as the ones he gave, I can take notice of that. I do think that scum are more likely to throw out a poor/lazy list of scum reads under pressure. Because they're afraid of giving something away.

It also feels like since he's been coming under suspicion he has dramatically reduced his posting.

I don't think this is game-specific.

I also don't like his saying he won't be claiming today, and he left without answering my question of "why" he won't claim if it looks like he's the target.

I am not sure what scum motivation you think there is here. Unless you're just suggesting that he's scum saying that because he thinks it benefits him in some way?

I think ducking out under pressure is also scummy. Maybe it's totally just a coincidence that he disappeared right after I asked him a question and hasn't been back since. Maybe he's got IRL issues. But I have no reason to give him that benefit of the doubt. I also note that since he's stopped posting, more than one person has come to his defense here, so, were I scum, I might very well decide that not posting was actually working out better for me.

[Fate]

Btw, fate, you're not going to be king.

Spiffeh probably isn't either unless he wants to compromise on targets, which he should probably be doing right now to make it awkward for any scum on his wagon to move if his new choice is scum.

Says the scum thats afraid to die

[Fate]

New dream that won't come true because people value self-importance and superficial notions of how to play over victory: SirCakez-king lynches Godz.

this is the worst read I've seen all game

I don't see how anyone can scumread Godz right now

[Fate]

ha ha.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: KURIBO

I kind of agree that nacho is scum.. but I am not ready for the day to end.

its 50 fucking pages

I don't care as much about being king anymore, right now the day is just better off ending.

If you think Nacho is scum get Spiffeh hammered

if not vote me

if you vote either of these in your next post, you're wasting fucking time and adding noise

[FakeGod]

VoteCount 1.10

Spiffeh [9] - Skybird, Kagami, hiplop, Spiffeh, BROseidon, Albert B. Rampage, zakk, Katsuki, DrippingGoofball
Fate [7] - Fate, kuribo, KittyMo, implosion, SirCakez, Brian Skies, G[o]dz
kuribo [2] - Nachomamma8, camn
SXTLHGaiden [1] - Cephrir

Not Voting [2]

- SXTLHGaiden, Axelrod

With 21 alive it takes 11 votes to become King

.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2016-05-28 15:00:00)

[G[o]dz]

Are you a muffin alt

I can't answer this question without lying to you, so I'll do you the favour of not answering it, Pumbaa.

[Fate]

Before the spiffeh wagon, katsuki, votes in this game meant nothing. The kings were just going to kill some random scummy-ish person, who even if scum, the scumteam probably wouldn't feel too sad losing. They would vote for whoever and pretend to do things knowing that there was no accountability.

The spiffeh wagon has direction and meaning. A vote for spiff is a vote for nacho's death. Unlike a normal game, however, there remained an alternative of voting for non-accountability.

If Nacho is scum, scum are voting to lynch a strong partner, or lynch elsewhere. If Nacho is town, scum are voting to be accountable for a town death, or voting to be non-accountable. In both cases, scum want to be on the Fate wagon (or at least off-wagon). This is also why I find it more than a little odd that Fate is calling out the Nacho wagon for being scummy, when there is little incentive for scum to be on it.

this is one version of the truth

there is also the version that scum are more comfortable with a sure mislynch than someone who will hit a power role of theirs or something unexpected.

It doesn't HAVE to do with accountability or non-accountability

it is also uncertainy vs. certainty

[Fate]

That said yes theres plenty of info with Spiffehs wagon being hammered

tahts why Camn and Axelrod should vote where their fucking mouths are

[Fate]

The spiffeh wagon has direction and meaning. A vote for spiff is a vote for nacho's death. Unlike a normal game, however, there remained an alternative of voting for non-accountability.

This is BS. The alternative to voting for Nacho's death is not a vote for non-accountability; it's a vote for someone other than Nacho dying.

If Nacho is town, scum are voting to be accountable for a town death

This is also BS. It's not like scum run away from wagons on town in regular games. That's essentially what the Spiffeh wagon is, it's a regular-game wagon on Nacho.

I can actually agree at this point that the Spiffeh wagon has done a good thing for the game in terms of making it more analyzable but my agreement with pretty much anything you've said stops there.

oh hey look a townie with the same mindset as me

how refreshing

[G[o]dz]

Btw, fate, you're not going to be king.

Spiffeh probably isn't either unless he wants to compromise on targets, which he should probably be doing right now to make it awkward for any scum on his wagon to move if his new choice is scum.

Says the scum thats afraid to die

For the record, I do not really believe that Kamagi is scum but I also do not really care if she dies with her reads the way they are (not to mention, for the reasons she's given). I think if you're trying to shoot scum, there are better options, but I don't think I'd shed a single tear at seeing her die.

[Cephrir]

So is a vote for Fate essentially a vote to lynch Kagami then, or what

I wish he'd give me like a pool of 5 or something so I'd have a clue what I was voting for.

[Fate]

Oh, for the record, if i'm elected king and we haven't decided as a town who we are killing, i'm killing who hammers me.

yeah this is quality fucking king material right here

go right on ahead cephrir

[Fate]

So is a vote for Fate essentially a vote to lynch Kagami then, or what

I wish he'd give me like a pool of 5 or something so I'd have a clue what I was voting for.

I've given a pool


It consists of the Spiffeh wagon and theres a mystery read off the wagon

I'm not going to be killing anyone that people would be disappointed with

My reads are a conglomerate of all my top townreads reads as well as the general desires of the game state.

I've stated who I'm not killing as well

[Axelrod]

I guess I'm not as impatient as you, Fate, and I really don't want to set a precedent of people getting killed without claiming either.

I realize Nacho said he wouldn't, but I've seen (town) people say that before and be persuaded to change their minds. I'd much rather have all the information before making a final decision.

[Cephrir]

Oh, for the record, if i'm elected king and we haven't decided as a town who we are killing, i'm killing who hammers me.

yeah this is quality fucking king material right here

go right on ahead cephrir

I don't think this is all that bad.

So is a vote for Fate essentially a vote to lynch Kagami then, or what

I wish he'd give me like a pool of 5 or something so I'd have a clue what I was voting for.

I've given a pool


It consists of the Spiffeh wagon and theres a mystery read off the wagon

I'm not going to be killing anyone that people would be disappointed with

My reads are a conglomerate of all my top townreads reads as well as the general desires of the game state.

I've stated who I'm not killing as well

I guess I'm okay with most of those options. Being contrary is more fun, but fine.

VOTE: Fate