Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[Imperium]

I'm leaning towards bus for cred going on right now. Ranger and kill both have been calling each other Town for days. And then suddenly today both have backed off their Town read on the other.

Reviewing Kill's read on Ranger, I agree that the switch (or the initial read) doesn't really make any sense whatsoever.
I also haven't really understood Ranger's perspective on KTS too well at all; from what I understand, the initial townread on him was because he might be the doctor (why did she think that?), and then that falls away if he's not the doctor but she doesn't have any read on him separate from that?

Rach's read also makes little sense coming from Town. Her only justification is the hammer with no claim to seeing scummy behavior prior to this. And Ocean's behavior Day 2 around the small Ranger wagon fits with distancing scum. He jumped on when I tried to get a block voting for Ranger as opposed to obv-mislynch Snarky but bailed almost immediately to go for Snarky. And them pre-flip tried to sell me as the most suspect player regarding the outcome of the Snarky wagon.

I don't think that Rach's position is unreasonable; her previous view on the slot was that Ranger's predecessors were either scummy and not around, and then Ranger quickhammered a town player because she might have been lynched. OceanWind's play is more complicated to unpack; I suppose that he makes sense as a possible partner, but from what I remember, he was the only player that really had problems with Jim's posting and went after that slot when he really didn't have to and I'm not exactly sure that he'd be the type of player that'd be averse to finishing a bus that he started long ago.

[Imperium]

Ollie's is the least likely scum bussing post but I have some concerns.

Could you explain your Ollie read in more detail?
I thought that his Day 1 looked decent, but I haven't seen anything worth a townread since then.

[Imperium]

My point is. You have zero experience with me as scum. Yet when Ranger states this is my scumgame with very little backing it up, you're posturing based off differences between my alleged town and scum meta. You shouldn't have any foundation to suggest a meta read. Even now, your read is very simplified. It reads as if Someone (my bet is on Ranger) told you to find examples of Titus being nice and argue it's sucking up.

Even now, you ignored the context you asked me to provide you. There's a difference between being a civil human being and avoiding confrontation Ollie. You're attempting to paint them in the same brush.

I use whatever info I have at my disposal, the goal is your reaction to the things I'm saying. The sucking up stuff is not a strong scum case on its own, it was a way into putting some pressure on you (like I was doing with everyone). It's clear I'm still sorting people by looking at Rach & Kill possibly bussing Ranger etc but you're behaving as if I'm advocating we lynch you today when I've never even said you're scum. I mean you have a problem with not being in the bus scenario I said was a possibility, er what? I asked you about the sucking up posts & you then come up with two scenarios, funnily enough I'm scum in both. Where is your reason there, anyone who questions you is scum? Were you trying to discredit me? Or what? Then you say the same Ranger I want to lynch today has coached me overnight about you as if the game revolves around you, & continued on with that nonsense. What info do I have that I shouldn't?

You very heavily implied that Titus was scum with the whole "look at you sucking up to Tammy " wall. None of your other points in this response are particularly cogent; could you rephrase things for me a bit?

[Imperium]

This is great posturing and all but you lost all rights to complain about not No Lynching today when you came out firing immediately and necessitated me claiming to halt the speedwagon so discussion could take place today.

I am glad that you outed today since you outing today was probably the optimal move for town.

1. I don’t care that you like his trolling – why are you giving him a pass for that terrible, terrible hammer and his subsequent play? What is your read on Kill?

The hammer bothers me less than the read switch on Ranger does; I'm currently scumreading him.

2. Do I need to look up Olympus Mafia from way back? I’m fuzzy on the details but think you got mislynched late in that game and part of me wants to look at your play regarding pressure on your slot.

I have absolutely no idea where this was coming from; I'd suggest looking at more recent games if you've got a sudden urge to meta me. I did get mislynched in Olympus Mafia, but I thought it was for role-based reasons mostly and don't remember it too closely so my playstyle has likely evolved since then.

[Imperium]

This is great posturing and all but you lost all rights to complain about not No Lynching today when you came out firing immediately and necessitated me claiming to halt the speedwagon so discussion could take place today.

I am glad that you outed today since you outing today was probably the optimal move for town.

1. I don’t care that you like his trolling – why are you giving him a pass for that terrible, terrible hammer and his subsequent play? What is your read on Kill?

The hammer bothers me less than the read switch on Ranger does; I'm currently scumreading him.

2. Do I need to look up Olympus Mafia from way back? I’m fuzzy on the details but think you got mislynched late in that game and part of me wants to look at your play regarding pressure on your slot.

I have absolutely no idea where this was coming from; I'd suggest looking at more recent games if you've got a sudden urge to meta me. I did get mislynched in Olympus Mafia, but I thought it was for role-based reasons mostly and don't remember it too closely so my playstyle has likely evolved since then.

[Imperium]

OW/Rach - OW was town as fuck, pulled no punches on anyone, asked all the right questions. Rach scummed the slot up quite a bit, possible bus on Ranger, at the least that was a bad vote. But that slot still had enough town credit from OW for me to not make her a scum read. Scum lean.

Can you detail your read on Rach a bit more and explain why she's so scummy to you?
I don't understand what's so terrible about the Rach slot that she could tear down your OW town read (which seems pretty strong by your short summary) so easily.

Imperium - No alarm bells from this slot, came across pretty town. Then drops a vote on me which was so half hearted I didn't take it seriously as it had no reasoning & moved 30 minutes later. Then they later implied they were scum reading me. Now I don't remember ever being pushed or properly questioned by these 2. & when I pulled them up on their lack of reasoning it was just ignored. If they think I'm scum, why haven't they made a case against me? Scum lean/almost read.

We voted you because it was a gut read that I had when catching up. We didn't case you because it was a gut read we had when catching up. You were probably ignored when you asked for us to expand on our reasoning because, in case you didn't notice, we've been floating in the ether for a little while now. How does this equal a scumread for you?

Killthestory - seems to have changed from Ranger being a 'prophet' to voting for her just for a hammer, but I doubt that will ever be explained. His posting is too sparse & lacking in content to get a real handle. If I was gonna vote for him it would probably be out of frustration than anything solid but has been more scummy lately. But he felt town early on. So I don't know about him.

Why does an early KTS townread mean that you're null on him whereas for the Rach/Us reads recent scumminess was enough for you to move us to scumleans/scum?

[Imperium]

2061 is literally calling everyone null to nullscum except Magna and me.

instead she slammed the hammer down as quickly as possible to make sure she did not get lynched.

I showed this was false in 2024. I had plenty of time and chance to hammer earlier. Masquerade also had plenty of time and chance to claim, yet was obviously not a PR. Ergo, I hammered when my life was in danger. I had already demonstrated exactly why it was in danger; that you continue to push this point as if it wasn't is why you're scum.

The point that Rach (and everyone else) is making that you were hammering when your life was in danger and that's scummy.
I'm not sure why you think that anyone is accusing you of hammering when your life wasn't in danger?

[Imperium]

Dislike. First that you strongest scum read is on Imperium for suspecting you. Protip – your play is definitely worthy of being suspected. Second that the rest of your analysis on everyone else more or less says “Meh, could be scum, could be Town”.

Not for suspecting me, come on now MoI, your reading comprehension needs improvement man. As I said I'm still sorting & I didn't expect you to like what I said considering you have a town read on Imperium. If Ranger flips scum I'll be able to get a much better handle on her partners anyway. I don't make links before a scum flip. If she's town then I've had it with this game.

Your reason for suspecting us was because we didn't explain a case on you even though we suspected you and because we ignored your request for elaboration, correct? I'm not really sure how else your read block can be taken, and if my interpretation of your suspicion is correct, then your suspicion of us is entirely centered around our read on you in which case MoI's summary of it is more accurate than you're claiming here.

Imperium is Burden of Profiency.

As in we haven't hit scum yet, or we're not seeing something that we should be seeing by now?

I could have been quicklynched by the scum.

I can't help but feeling that this isn't a legitimate worry.

[Ranger]

I don't think the people who placed votes on you after you quickhammered were placing unreasonable votes, whether scum or town.

I suppose. Still, my statement about scum hoping for a quicklynch on me is still a valid one. Three votes popped up on me, with Titus on the sidelines as if waiting for one more vote before hammering.

What was your intention in making this post?

It had dual purposes, partly as an analysis of yesterday, partly as a defense of my actions yesterday.

[Ranger]

I also haven't really understood Ranger's perspective on KTS too well at all; from what I understand, the initial townread on him was because he might be the doctor (why did she think that?), and then that falls away if he's not the doctor but she doesn't have any read on him separate from that?

I have quite a bit of experience with KTS. Killthestory is not a pure troll. He relies on people thinking he is in order to pull gambits as town, but also to screw around as scum. His iso is long, so finding the strongest examples would take a while, but his play had many traits I associated more with the former than the latter. Things like the lurking, things like flat-out saying he's not going to effort, and such. Overall, when Killthestory is vanilla town, he puts actual pushes in. He may not explain them, but he'll have conviction and push with force. When he doesn't display these traits, I see either scum, or PR. You're right though that it wasn't a pure PR read. I thought PR instead of scum mainly because many of Killthestory's thoughts lined up with my own on my first readthrough of the game. He was pushing many of the people I would have pushed, and against many of the pushes I would have been against.

In short, while there wasn't any singular post that screamed, "I'm a PR!", when combined with his whole iso, that's the conclusion I reached. But his PR play is very similar to his scum play.

I'm not sure why you think that anyone is accusing you of hammering when your life wasn't in danger?

I was under the impression the accusation against me was that I hammered the moment the opportunity arose, which was not the case.

[Titus]

@Imperium, Umm both? I'm surprised you didn't hit scum. The CoM lynch was null as you had no way of knowing how ABR was acting. But by Day 4 and not a scum lynch, why hasn't Imperium lead one? Why are they alive? Is it something they are missing entirely, or are they just scum? Or both. I'm struggling a bit with it because I also think Imperium scum would off the PRs much sooner unless there was a massive pattern in the dead suspecting you, and I don't see that.

So I'm rather confused at this point.

[Ollie]

Titus, Ollie, KTS would be what I think the scum team would look like with you as town.

Why? & what would it look like if Ranger is scum?

Only off thing he did that sticks in my mind is replacing out at the time he came under pressure.

This seems like a pretty strange scumtell for OW. Do you think that a scum player who was capable of making the posts that OW did would replace out simply because he was being pressured? Not threaten to replace out, mind you, but actually replace out.

I wouldn't say it was some obvious scum tell, as I said directly after what you've quoted...

that may have been just because he was annoyed.

I don't see why a player who comes across as intelligent like OW did, who put so much into the game like he did, would just storm off because he was disagreeing with you either. So that was definitely strange. Do you think that wasn't strange? Explain it for me then.

could you rephrase things for me a bit?

Not sure how to as I thought that was pretty clear, just tell me what you don't understand.

[Ollie]

Imperium - No alarm bells from this slot, came across pretty town. Then drops a vote on me which was so half hearted I didn't take it seriously as it had no reasoning & moved 30 minutes later. Then they later implied they were scum reading me. Now I don't remember ever being pushed or properly questioned by these 2. & when I pulled them up on their lack of reasoning it was just ignored. If they think I'm scum, why haven't they made a case against me? Scum lean/almost read.

We voted you because it was a gut read that I had when catching up. We didn't case you because it was a gut read we had when catching up. You were probably ignored when you asked for us to expand on our reasoning because, in case you didn't notice, we've been floating in the ether for a little while now. How does this equal a scumread for you?

Gotta love gut reads, reads based on nothing. So you had this 'gut read', you coulda then asked me some questions, pushed me to gain further insight, I mean was I your top scum read at that point? But no you then moved off about half an hour later with not a single word about why you'd voted for me. & who did you move off me to? Someone you now seem to be town reading so who the hell are you pushing really, as I said, just looks like busy work, with no conviction to it...

which I had no reason to do at the time

The thread said it was day 2. You weren't curious who died overnight?

Vote: Ranger

Then you mention me being scum later, I asked you why & you ignore. You're admitting you ignored what I said, I have that right yes? Your reasoning is because you were floating in the ether? What on earth. Reminder; you posted after I asked you. Only now after I've pressed you into it are you even questioning me. & this is a crucial part of the game which neither of you have previously seemed bothered about until almost being replaced for your inactivity.

I'll respond to everything else you said later in detail.

[RachMarie]

@mod V/LA for a few days have work catchups to do.

[Nosferatu]

UNVOTE: Ranger

[Nosferatu]

Team is Kill + Titus + [rach, ollie]

Or Ranger is scum.

With this outline pretty sure I'm cool no lynching.
VOTE: No Lynch

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA,

@Titus

– why are you doing nothing this game and why shouldn’t Burden of Proficiency be aimed right at you and Ranger if you think it is a valid tell?

Team is Kill + Titus + [rach, ollie]

Or Ranger is scum.

With this outline pretty sure I'm cool no lynching.
VOTE: No Lynch

Nope. We aren’t just going to No Lynch when the pretty much all reason says any Nightkill that goes through isn’t going to resolve the “Is Ranger Scum” question leaving us in LYLO lynching her instead of MYLO. At least lynching her today gives a chance to block the kill if she isn’t scum. Tomorrow that chance immediately ends the game if we are in LYLO.

The point that Rach (and everyone else) is making that you were hammering when your life was in danger and that's scummy.

Stop saying this. Self-preservation is in and of itself Null. No player who is playing to their wincon should not hammer an alternate wagon they claim to be scum-reading if they think the alternative is their own lynch. That is the worst possible reason to scum read Ranger as there are literal tons of other reasons to do so this game.

My problem with the KTS case is less that I think that his actions make sense from a normal town perspective and more that I'm not currently willing to put my weight behind the scum case on him. I don't think that hammer on CoM to move onto better scumhunting was scummy; I didn't think that KTS as scum needed to hammer that wagon in order to get CoM lynched, and I'm not sure that he would hammer someone that he publicly thought he was town in order to get a lynch that was guaranteed anyways instead of just shutting his mouth and accepting the free town cred.

I assume in the above you mean the hammer of Snarky not CoM since CoM self-hammered. Frankly the whole “why would he do it as scum” argument leaves me cold when there is also no logical “why would he do it as Town” that isn’t answered anyway other than just bad play. Bad play isn’t alignment indicative. That and the fact that he did no scum-hunting after the fact just derped along until it was time to jump on the Masq mislynch with terrible reasoning.

I'd be happier if you didn't do this; I'm currently townreading both Nosferatu and RachMarie (who are in your top 2), and Ranger's responses to me haven't been at all what I expected if she was scum (granted, I'm not exactly confident that she is town but with the way this game is going I think we'd be dumb not to pretty heavily consider the possibility), and I'd like a little bit more time in order to talk this out with you.

Um were you not the person who started the day telling me that a Ranger lynch was the only logicial way today plays out when I started calling out the obv-scum quickwagon? I’m not exactly sure why you are flip-flopping around on this so much.

Could you explain your Ollie read in more detail?
I thought that his Day 1 looked decent, but I haven't seen anything worth a townread since then.

It mostly revolved around the way they all have handled Ranger all game.

We’ve been over why kill’s sudden flip is scummy.
Rach’s slot has done little to suspect Ranger. I briefly got Ocean onto a Ranger counter-wagon to Snarky Day 2 but he jumped off for incredibly stupid reasons and they pre-flip tried to pin me as the most obvious scum based on how the mislynch went. Either Ocean is terrible and very mistaken about his level of competence or that’s pure scum 101 play. And Rach to my memory said little about Ranger. A quick ISO of her shows the following gem - 1925. Before today’s start it was her only mention of Ranger.

Ollie’s read was most strongly based on the fact that he stayed with the Ranger wagon Day 2.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Ranger

L-2

Sorry, I'm not going to lose the game letting a player who has been pretty scummy for 3 days off the hook when she's been near the top of my scum pile for those 3 days.

[kelbris]

VC 4.06

Titus (0): none
Ranger (3) [L-2]: Killthestory, Titus, MagnaofIllusion
MagnaofIllusion (0): none
Imperium (0): none
Killthestory (0): none
Nosferatu (0): none
RachMarie (0): none
Ollie (0): none
No Lynch (1): Nosferatu
not voting: Ranger, Imperium, Ollie, RachMarie
With 8 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.
day 4 has begun, it will end in (expired on 2016-06-04 18:00:00)

[Killthestory]

Team is Kill + Titus + [rach, ollie]

Or Ranger is scum.

With this outline pretty sure I'm cool no lynching.
VOTE: No Lynch

this is terrible. Now might be scum

[Nosferatu]

if ranger is town, hasn't been lynched because two scum are already on the wagon and the third is ready to hammer, you and Titus are the only non-town people on the wagon. Assuming Ranger, Imperium and, MoI are town, the last scum must be between rach and ollie. This is a perfectly logical conclusion. Keep in mind that "Or Ranger is scum" means that entire team theory is moot. What's scummy about it.

[Killthestory]

ok that makes sense

im sorry now lets lynch Ranger kek

[Imperium]

I don't think that Ranger is in any danger of being let off the hook, Magna.
The reason why I want to hold off on the lynch is so we can settle some of the differences between us (Rach-town/Rach-scum, Ollie-town/Ollie-scum in particular).

[Imperium]

And I'm not exactly brimming with time at the moment so I can understand if this isn't something that's desirable to you, but this end isn't ready for the day to end and still wants to talk.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't think that Ranger is in any danger of being let off the hook, Magna.

Ok .. I think that's reasonable.

UNVOTE: Ranger