Mini 1804: Poker Mafia (Game Over)

[lane0168]

^good question. Excellent question.

And yeah mm isn't the one following Persivul I guess. Since his idea is im dumping my chips to the mm.

@the mm. How long do you wait to go full gung-ho with your reads? Why are you concerned about how we will act of you go full gung-ho with your reads?

This could be a case of tunneling on my part, but I really don't like the mm. Unless everything they say is just fitting my preconceived notion. Will consider that

There was too much stuff in rvs that was weird to even comment on infinities read list. Two self votes. Moi changing rvs to bandwagon. Infinity having self at bottom. Wasn't going to get to decipher anything from any of that.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: The MM
Based on the chip dumping theory and a reads list full of nulls. If you don't have any reads yet, why put up a list? Oh yeah...because it looks kinda townie.

Because it has some leanings (some are so soft they don't show up in the final results) and I'm making sure everyone keeps track of that. I'm not writing down people as scum or town this easily as y'all, that's it. Do I need to write down my tiniest leans? People can change my opinion of them in one post.

The mm, who said you were playing badly? I must've missed that. And why is everyone single one of your reads null?

Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.
My reads are null with very soft leans in case you can read and spot them.

Who is scum just following Persivul's idea? I'll find you. Unless it's just mm and only mm

What idea? The chip-dumping theory? Just because I'm confident in my hand doesn't mean I'm scum, otherwise that would mean I was just collecting lane's monies. Besides, lane claimed to have done that with no coordination, so what do you think are the odds of the guy with the nuts be town? Just down to luck, out of the 10 remaning, odds are 2 or 3 are scum, making it like 75% chance I'm town.

Just saying, people here take too many things at face value.
Apparently some of you have already played each other and thus know each other a bunch, but I didn't. That means I can't go full gung-ho with gut-based or entirely reason-based reads because I don't know how you act at all.
Seems to me, though, that you are not even trying and draw conclusions and vote me at the drop of a hat. A day phase is 2 weeks, we could at least use the time.

Ok, just noticed your join date. Early in day 1, people often try to exaggerate little things to get discussion going and put pressure on people. This may be what you're pointing out as "taking too many things at face value". I will tell you that

I like this reaction to pressure, especially given he's new to the site. I think what he's done so far fits with new town.

VOTE: The MM
Based on the chip dumping theory and a reads list full of nulls. If you don't have any reads yet, why put up a list? Oh yeah...because it looks kinda townie.

Because it has some leanings (some are so soft they don't show up in the final results) and I'm making sure everyone keeps track of that. I'm not writing down people as scum or town this easily as y'all, that's it. Do I need to write down my tiniest leans? People can change my opinion of them in one post.

The mm, who said you were playing badly? I must've missed that. And why is everyone single one of your reads null?

Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.
My reads are null with very soft leans in case you can read and spot them.

Who is scum just following Persivul's idea? I'll find you. Unless it's just mm and only mm

What idea? The chip-dumping theory? Just because I'm confident in my hand doesn't mean I'm scum, otherwise that would mean I was just collecting lane's monies. Besides, lane claimed to have done that with no coordination, so what do you think are the odds of the guy with the nuts be town? Just down to luck, out of the 10 remaning, odds are 2 or 3 are scum, making it like 75% chance I'm town.

Just saying, people here take too many things at face value.
Apparently some of you have already played each other and thus know each other a bunch, but I didn't. That means I can't go full gung-ho with gut-based or entirely reason-based reads because I don't know how you act at all.
Seems to me, though, that you are not even trying and draw conclusions and vote me at the drop of a hat. A day phase is 2 weeks, we could at least use the time.

Ok, just noticed your join date. Early in day 1, people often try to exaggerate little things to get discussion going and put pressure on people. This may be what you're pointing out as "taking too many things at face value". I will tell you that

I like this reaction to pressure, especially given he's new to the site. I think what he's done so far fits with new town.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: rc

I will say, however, if at a later point we think mm looks like scum, we should lynch him because

qubixes, do you have any reads yet? What do you think of mm (in particular, his last post)?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: rc

I will say, however, if at a later point we think mm looks like scum, we should lynch him because

qubixes, do you have any reads yet? What do you think of mm (in particular, his last post)

[qubixes]

@The MM

I don't think the problem with the readlist is the number of null reads (at least to me). But why put them out that early?

I tried to find out by looking through your earlier games. I only found one, where you replaced in. That is correct?

[Infinity 324]

Eugh, my post fucked up.

Not many people responded to my random reads list, but s_s responded in a towny way.

[qubixes]

@infinity: I would like him to answer my questions first. Haven't looked too deeply into anyone else yet.

Well, MM responded to your list in his read list. What did you think about the response?

[Infinity 324]

Was NAI, he seemed to read too much into it

[RedCoyote]

Then you would just hammer if people refused to switch, you wouldn't really lose anything.

S_S says that we should force the scummy players off of a wagon. The only way to "force" players off would be to vote them. Therefore, it's your contention that you could dismantle the entire wagon on one player and move it to another player? You don't think there would be any issues in doing that?

---

Yes, rc. Hugely in favor of randomizing the order like it should be.

I'm just spitballing. It may be more trouble than it's worth though, as I'm realizing that without day talk the scum are going to have trouble working together on their poker strategy.

---

See, I agree with FA_Q2's 74 except that I don't see lane's bet as scummy. That said, once we see the hands, I may feel differently.

To put it another way, I'm very reluctant to jump aboard the conclusion that lane is making some sneaky gambit right off the bat like that. I think that's the less likely than he just wanted to make a splash without taking the time to consider it in terms of how it would be perceived.

---

RE: lane's 78

I can see the thought process here more clearly than I can see the scumlane argument.

The scumlane conclusion argues that lane knowingly went all in in an attempt to consolidate funds to the scum team. Reasonable, but it requires that lane came up with a devious and clever strategy to act on immediately. He would necessarily have gotten attention for this bet, which the scumteam had to know. Were they betting (heh) that we would ultimately ignore it? I just think it sounds too complex. It's reasonable, but I don't think it's likely.

Now, lane proposes an interesting counterargument. The MM suggested that the above scumlane argument holds water. He wasn't the original one to propose it, but he is a follower. There's a caveat though. MM called lane's bet. Ergo, what The MM is criticizing lane for he just did himself.

Then again, perhaps MM is that sure that lane is scum that he's willing to gamble all his money in an effort to stop lane from winning. On the other hand, if his hand is weak, he's giving the scum a sizable pot now...

The question everyone has to ask themselves, if you were townMM, would you have called scumlane? If so, why didn't you? If not, why would townMM do this?

---

PS - Bluffing is useless if you don't have any semblance of cred (like a hand won or two).

This is accurate. lane's defensiveness rubs me the wrong way, but I think it's a playstyle thing more than anything.

I'll be coming up with a readslist as well as I can, but keep in mind that didn't help me much in my first game so don't be surprised if I only dig myself deeper and you end up lynching me.

Playing the newbie card is unnecessary and will detract from your status in my eyes, not improve it.

I'm undecided between thinking this was a scummy move to pass money to scum, or really just a mindless bluff, but I'd think lane's better than that.

Why would you assume the former if you don't know him, however?

I also get a sense that you are trying to have it both ways. These two statements appear to contradict somewhat:

I'd think lane's better than [making a mindless bluff].

I'm convinced [lane] plays dumb

---

It shouldn't matter for today. If Lane loses as he says he will, then it would be the winner we would want to lynch. I'm kind of kicking myself for mentioning the possibility when I did. It might have been more informative to let the hand play out before saying anything.

Yeah, you are definitely my top townread right now.

Persivul's 92 and 93 are basically echoing my thoughts above but in a much more succinct and effective fashion.

I also like qubixes' 98. Good observation.

VOTE: The MM, L-2.

---

Infinity, is there something I'm supposed to respond to in 101? You voting me in that post seems random.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Posting for my benefit for later reference – FA and Pers have both made “13 player oops” slips.

The bad part of MM’s full readslist is not that it is not strong. I don’t expect that on Page 4. Why it may be an example of scum play is it appeared right after MM had drawn a couple votes (Infinity and Lane) and has the feel of “Have to post content to look Town before a wagon develops”. Pers’s reaction 92 looks Town. So does Quib’s at 102.

I also an very, very wary of Lane’s buddying / borderline hero worship with Pers. At best it is bad Town play which has caused problems in the past (just look at anyone who are deemed Top Players and you will find a game where they are scum and given a pass due to Hero worship – most recent example I can think of is Killthestory towards Ranger in Open 633 - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=65953 ).

There will be a showdown, right? That might give us some clues as to what happened. If one of the two shows a very premium hand, it's at least unlikely that they are a team.

How do you come to this conclusion – frankly it is the opposite that makes more sense given Pre-Game talk possibilities.

What did you think about RC's post in terms of his alignment?

You can read below but this bring up two questions –

1. Why did you specifically ask me?
2. You post before this seems to not be drawing the same read I am. Why is that? I see your later vote but that vote is basically naked and nothing in your ISO says “I suspect RC” to my eyes.

Not many people responded to my random reads list, but s_s responded in a towny way.

Please elaborate on what exactly was his Townie reaction.

I really like this question and thought process. I hadn't considered any money shenanigans, but it makes sense that the scum may want to pool their money together under one person if they can, especially given how everything costs more than $500.

Does this necessarily point to lane as scum though? I'm thinking no. lane strikes me as the impulsive type. I don't get the feeling that his bet was part of a gambit, but it's something to still consider going forward.

I’m having issues with these linked paragraphs. Specifically the manner in which he just assesses that Lane wouldn’t be scum because he’s impulsive. That doesn’t make any sense given that Lane being an ‘impulsive type’ would be impulsive regardless of the alignment he drew. This looks like reaching to draw a conclusion that he already knows.

Mod, could you put the numerical amount of votes each player has in your VCs? I know I can count them myself, but I'm lazy. Additionally, I think it would be helpful for everyone if you kept track of who's in/out, who called/bet and what, etc. Perhaps in a separate area tag under the VC? Just a suggestion. It would definitely help the game run smoother if we had all the updated info at a glance.

Strikes me as LAMIST to a degree. All of this could have been just as easily handled in a PM. And specifically because it isn’t a question (which others have posted, Pers as I recall most recently) which benefits general knowledge.

VOTE: Red Coyote

Otherwise it could just be someone who tried to bluff and got called. You guys obviously know nothing about poker. People bluff. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. I think it's obvious you guys know nothing about poker to think that there would obviously be a call on all in first hand. You're trying to make it scummy when it isn't.

I think Lane’s response to the pressure has been Null/Reasonable but this post pushes my gut.

Lane made what is the equivalent of Newb101 Poker Bad Play. Going effectively All-In the first hand with what he is claiming is a bad hand is the kind of thing you see from complete novice players. And yet his response is to basically ridicule everyone who suspects him as not understanding poker.

This is 5 card stud with 3 wildcards. Anyone with a modicum of math skills knows that all three Jokers are distributed the first hand. So odds are very favorable that worst case we have three pairs at a minimum among the 11 players. Yet Lane is claiming to understand poker and went all in with a self-proclaimed bad hand?

Doesn’t follow logically for me. Now all this goes away if we get a showdown and Lane actually has a hand that makes sense for trying to draw out calls. But for now I’m still wary of his play.

What idea? The chip-dumping theory? Just because I'm confident in my hand doesn't mean I'm scum, otherwise that would mean I was just collecting lane's monies. Besides, lane claimed to have done that with no coordination, so what do you think are the odds of the guy with the nuts be town? Just down to luck, out of the 10 remaning, odds are 2 or 3 are scum, making it like 75% chance I'm town.

For someone who decried players taking things at face value there is an awful lot you are expecting everyone to just take at face value in this response for it to be reasonable.

[RedCoyote]

I’m having issues with these linked paragraphs. Specifically the manner in which he just assesses that Lane wouldn’t be scum because he’s impulsive. That doesn’t make any sense given that Lane being an ‘impulsive type’ would be impulsive regardless of the alignment he drew. This looks like reaching to draw a conclusion that he already knows.

Why shouldn't I acknowledge the elephant in the room? I think you (or someone else) would've criticized me if I didn't address lane or apply this specific argument toward lane. I mean, he's the only one it applys to at this point, after all.

If lane is impulsive, it necessarily weakens the argument that this move was calculated. Because if he's impulsive, he'd maybe do the same bet regardless of his alignment (making the bet null, not scummy). That said, I'm willing to acknowledge the calculated argument is reasonable. I don't find it likely, however, and I'm going to explain why. This was the appropriate time to do so.

Strikes me as LAMIST to a degree. All of this could have been just as easily handled in a PM. And specifically because it isn’t a question (which others have posted, Pers as I recall most recently) which benefits general knowledge.

This is a reach that is completely unworthy of a vote. There's no response for this other than I hope those straws you're grasping at are soft to the touch.

As far as this question (it is a question in the sense that I'm asking if the moderator would be so kind as to do this for us ... he is not obligated to) not "benefiting general knowledge", I have no idea what that means. I find a numerical count as well as an official tally of the poker moves to be very beneficial. I think others would agree. Especially if we're going to be faced with multiple hands over the course of a single day, having one spot to look to will be more helpful than having to scan over numerous posts looking for bolded text.

[MagnaofIllusion]

See, I agree with FA_Q2's 74 except that I don't see lane's bet as scummy. That said, once we see the hands, I may feel differently.

Please elaborate on what hand combination you think would change your view on Lane and what you think is the situation now with your Town Lane read.

The question everyone has to ask themselves, if you were townMM, would you have called scumlane? If so, why didn't you? If not, why would townMM do this?

This reeks of scum trying to position the argument that there is no logical reason for MM to be Town when the question is very poorly staged.

I would have absolutely called Lane even if I thought he was scum trying some sort of gambit if I had a good 5 card draw poker hand. The obvious answer why I didn’t? I didn’t have a good hand. The second half is pointless given I think Town with a good hand would call scum Lane.

This is a false dichotomy and scummy. If Lane was scum looking to consolidate it is possible MM is a partner. It is also possible that MM has a good 5 card draw hand and he pre-empted scum’s plan as Town. Looking at the vote history he was the second to act.

But only drawing negative conclusions from the scenario is scummy.

[Persivul]

I also an very, very wary of Lane’s buddying / borderline hero worship with Pers.

There's no hero worship. We just have a history of working well together once we're convinced each other are town (I'm not there yet).

Otherwise that was a very good post.

[Persivul]

It is also possible that MM has a good 5 card draw hand and he pre-empted scum’s plan as Town.

Actually MM would look a lot better if he had simply said he has a great hand and so he called. Claiming he was pre-empting scum's plan is bad. As has been already noted, if here were really thinking at that level, he would have waited for scum to call before going in himself.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Actually MM would look a lot better if he had simply said he has a great hand and so he called. Claiming he was pre-empting scum's plan is bad. As has been already noted, if here were really thinking at that level, he would have waited for scum to call before going in himself.

Um ... I was responding to RedCoyote's scernario which absolutely posited scumLane. Yes, it certainly looks very good for MM if he simply called with powerful hand regardless of Lane's alignment. But that was outside of what I was responding to.

[Persivul]

MM claimed that scenario himself in 88: "Even scum wouldn't give away monies at random, the only way that it makes any amount of sense is scum trying to give away their monies to a scumpartner with a good hand, to get this perk out ASAP.

I called to break that

, as I am quite confident in my hand."

If he was really thinking at that level, he would have waited for other scum to get in before calling himself.

[RedCoyote]

Please elaborate on what hand combination you think would change your view on Lane and what you think is the situation now with your Town Lane read.

I have not characterized my lane read as a townread. I do not think the evidence is there to call him a scumread, however.

Should he have a bad hand, I will reassess at that time.

I would have absolutely called Lane even if I thought he was scum trying some sort of gambit if I had a good 5 card draw poker hand. The obvious answer why I didn’t? I didn’t have a good hand. The second half is pointless given I think Town with a good hand would call scum Lane.

This is a false dichotomy and scummy. If Lane was scum looking to consolidate it is possible MM is a partner. It is also possible that MM has a good 5 card draw hand and he pre-empted scum’s plan as Town. Looking at the vote history he was the second to act.

But only drawing negative conclusions from the scenario is scummy.

Given your poor arguments in 107, it stands to reason that you'll now comb back over reasonable questions in an attempt to frame them in a negative light. I'm asking questions, not creating a false dichotomy. The proper answer here is, "I would've called, but my hand was poor". That's all that needed to be said. Instead of answering me and seeing how I reacted, you took it upon yourself to assume these questions were meant as a trap.

I'm not "only drawing negative conclusions". I'm asking questions and begging consideration for a point of view. I'm not here to hold your hand, MM's hand, lane's hand or anyone else's hand. It's every players responsibility to think for themselves as individuals and respond in kind.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: players'

[Persivul]

player's

[qubixes]

There will be a showdown, right? That might give us some clues as to what happened. If one of the two shows a very premium hand, it's at least unlikely that they are a team.

How do you come to this conclusion – frankly it is the opposite that makes more sense given Pre-Game talk possibilities.

I would think they would try to get more money in the pot. An all-in like Lane did achieves the opposite.

[lane0168]

Time for little at this moment.

@moi. My foot is in my mouth. I didn't even think about every single card being out including the 3 jokers. Poker generally doesn't have all the cards out. And I wasnt thinking about the wild cards whatsoever. Realizing that... The all in was incredibly stupid. I'm the stupid one. Not the people thinking there was a call. I was thinking that maybe someone has a pair, and might not call with it. But the wilds like you said guarantee at least 3 pairs at the very lowest. And I'm the dumbass... I'll admit that here

[MagnaofIllusion]

I would think they would try to get more money in the pot. An all-in like Lane did achieves the opposite.

I disagree. Consolidating two (or more, but that doesn’t look like it is happening) players full starting $500 plus the remaining antes plus any other stray bets is most likely to get the most money into one player’s hands after a single round.

Right now the pot is $1,170. It could even rise to over $1,500 if kappy calls.

To get more money into the post than the $1,170 with the initial $55 in ante requires every player to bet at at a minimum just over $101 per hand. Given the voting pattern we know happened (Quib and Something Smart both folded to a simply $50 bet and Pers folded to a $100 bet) it is very unlikely a non-All-in play generates more money than what happened with Lane’s All-in.

This being said – does this change your opinion?

[Something_Smart]

Okay so first of all, "zero scum game" is probably the most hilarious thing I have seen on this site 11/10 MoI

A mislynch to verify this being completely false isn't the worst way to start out the game. However you'll change your mind on due time

This is anti-town.

This kind of assumes lane is town.

Could be scum dumping money to each other so they can buy out one of the bigger PRs early.

I really like this question and thought process. I hadn't considered any money shenanigans, but it makes sense that the scum may want to pool their money together under one person if they can, especially given how everything costs more than $500.

Not following this. It's a meh thought process, honestly to me it sounds more likely to come from scum than average. Why do you like it so much?

s_s - town: He seems to be genuinely trying to figure stuff out.

I would like elaboration on this, it sounds rather generic.

And to all of you who say I'm playing bad, that's normal: this is my second game here, and it's months after my first due to a quite tense situation I got into IRL. As for being hasty, I was: one of the primal needs of the human body is sleep, and I was in lack of it. I'll be coming up with a readslist as well as I can, but keep in mind that didn't help me much in my first game so don't be surprised if I only dig myself deeper and you end up lynching me.

This is fairly towny. 90 is using a lot of words to say nothing, I'm not sure if it's alignment indicative though. (Maybe slightly towny.)
Ugh. I was really hoping to roll scum this game because I am far better at deceiving people I don't know and far better at reading people I do know. (I rely a lot on meta.) And meta without personal experience is like 10 times less effective.

Hmm. I liked 91 and 92, but 93 is weak at best. Another player I'll have to meta.

MM has decent analysis, but nothing that can't be faked by scum

Interesting, that's exactly my thoughts on you.

Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.
My reads are null with very soft leans in case you can read and spot them.

Eww.
98-99: qubixes is probably town. And I like lane's 100 too.

Not many people responded to my random reads list, but s_s responded in a towny way.

Is this why you were townreading me early?

The question everyone has to ask themselves, if you were townMM, would you have called scumlane? If so, why didn't you? If not, why would townMM do this?

I would have called if:
1) I thought my hand was the strongest,
2) I thought lane was bluffing, or
3) I didn't mind all my money going to lane. I think MM called for a mixture of 1 & 2.
I think several parts of 107 are awfully reachy. I think under certain circumstances, trying to get townread is a null tell, and I think MM would be doing so as either alignment. The LAMIST argument is also pretty tenuous. MoI is one of the few players I've seen firsthand before (as town, and I was modding the game so I wasn't reading as carefully into his posts as if I had been playing, but it's better than nothing) and so far this is looking like this could be the town play I saw, or it could not be. Before anyone jumps on me for fencesitting, the point of this is that I can't draw a clear conclusion from his posts yet.

This is a reach

yes

that is completely unworthy of a vote.

not necessarily. It's page 5, votes don't need to have strong reasoning attached and sometimes they're just for reactions anyway. I also don't like the implication that you might do things that would be worthy of a vote?

The question everyone has to ask themselves, if you were townMM, would you have called scumlane? If so, why didn't you? If not, why would townMM do this?

This reeks of scum trying to position the argument that there is no logical reason for MM to be Town when the question is very poorly staged.

I would have absolutely called Lane even if I thought he was scum trying some sort of gambit if I had a good 5 card draw poker hand. The obvious answer why I didn’t? I didn’t have a good hand. The second half is pointless given I think Town with a good hand would call scum Lane.

This is a false dichotomy and scummy. If Lane was scum looking to consolidate it is possible MM is a partner. It is also possible that MM has a good 5 card draw hand and he pre-empted scum’s plan as Town. Looking at the vote history he was the second to act.

More reaching... you don't necessarily know what the point of this question is. I certainly don't think it creates a false dichotomy.

It is also possible that MM has a good 5 card draw hand and he pre-empted scum’s plan as Town.

Actually MM would look a lot better if he had simply said he has a great hand and so he called. Claiming he was pre-empting scum's plan is bad. As has been already noted, if here were really thinking at that level, he would have waited for scum to call before going in himself.

QFT
I agree with the people who are saying that we need to see the results of the hand before we proceed in reading lane and MM. Kappy, we're looking at you.
118 sounds genuine. I don't think that reflects much on his alignment, except that there's a small chance he would continue to deny his mistake as scum.

[RedCoyote]

lane's mea culpa (118) has me feeling even better about the slot being town. I remain convinced that his bet was not scum-influenced.

Will address S_S and others later. Work stuff came up.

[Alchemist21]

"Folks call that the Dead Man's Hand."

♠ ♡ VOTECOUNT 1.6 ♢ ♣

MM (3):

lane, Persivul, Red Coyote

Something Smart (2):

Something Smart, BBT

Red Coyote (2):

Infinity, Magna

BBT (1):

qubixes

lane (1):

The MM

Not Voting (2):

Kappy, FA_Q2

With 11 Votes, it takes 6 to Lynch.
Deadline

: (expired on 2016-07-05 12:30:00)

The current pot is $1170
The amount to call is $495

Still in the hand: Kappy, lane, MM

Spoiler: Betting History

Bet orders:
Ante
Magna bets $25
MM raises to $50
qubixes folds
something smart folds
Infinity raises to $100
persivul folds
lane raises to $495
BBT folds
MM calls
Magna folds
RC folds
Infinity folds
FA folds

Kappy must submit an action.
New format courtesy of wgeurts.

[lane0168]

@everyone, assume my hand is so bad that I would've folded to any bet had there been a chance for drawing cards. Not thinking about 3 wilds and having no draw, I thought there was a decent chance nobody risks their money. Assume im beat by probably all of you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I have not characterized my lane read as a townread. I do not think the evidence is there to call him a scumread, however.

Should he have a bad hand, I will reassess at that time.

Stop dodging the question and answer it directly.

What hand are you expecting in your “Lane isn’t scummy” stance?

This is a reach that is completely unworthy of a vote. There's no response for this other than I hope those straws you're grasping at are soft to the touch.

It’s page 5. Anything is going to be a stretch at this point as the game is a whopping 24 hours old. You’ve been around long enough to understand this. Yet you begin with the discrediting language in your first response.

Why shouldn't I acknowledge the elephant in the room? I think you (or someone else) would've criticized me if I didn't address lane or apply this specific argument toward lane. I mean, he's the only one it applys to at this point, after all.

If lane is impulsive, it necessarily weakens the argument that this move was calculated. Because if he's impulsive, he'd maybe do the same bet regardless of his alignment (making the bet null, not scummy). That said, I'm willing to acknowledge the calculated argument is reasonable. I don't find it likely, however, and I'm going to explain why. This was the appropriate time to do so.

1. Moving the goalposts. Not a single point about my argument stated you should not have commented on Lane.
2. Being impulsive isn’t really relevant given the revelation of Pre-Game talk where scum had the change to coordinate their actions. In which case Lane’s partner

could certainly have gotten him on-board with the plan. So your post reads to me as looking for a reason to clear Lane and I think the reason you used was spurious as stated in the first response.

Given your poor arguments in 107, it stands to reason that you'll now comb back over reasonable questions in an attempt to frame them in a negative light.

And more discrediting language. And language that specified implies I'm scum looking to frame innocent posting. Yet no movement to actually vote me. Or anyone since Red specifically avoided voting in his first post.

Happy with my vote.