Newbie 1728: Training Your Dragon Mafia [Game Over]

[hiplop]

Right, so this is where I'm at.
Reso is town. I won't be touching there today (excluding confirmation results, of course).

RyanK posts are of little value imo, could be of more value to others but not me.
Scum won't put that much effort in a game imo, as he seems to be doing it for results, rather than town credit.
The hammer was not at all bad. He gave a warning, and nobody objected to it. He gave a time, and no one objected to it. He gave Phantom a chance to look town, and he did not.

So that's 2 town for me meaning that scum will be in the following.

HipLop
IV
Maverick
VaxKiller

Maverick, although did only tunnel, and I did say I would like to see more, would seem odd to push so hard on someone. The worrying part is shooting down Ryan, and yet putting no effort into giving a view.
IV - I'm not sure here, I want to see more. His counter wagon was originally my other body, which swiftly moved onto Phantom. Could this have been a way to move from IV? I doubt it, but very plausible. IV, if you can give an update of people, and your thoughts on the night kill.
HipLop - What can I say, not providing much, which isn't really odd for HipLop. Can you give more reasons to why you vote Colbalt? I'm not saying the vote was wrong pre flip, because I, myself was there. But you said that there were more reasons.
VaxKiller - 481 - Originally, I thought he was onto something, probably because I was convinced that Cobalt was scum. However, this post now reads to me as either preparing his buddy to not be lynched (HipLop) but saying that HipLop is unlikely scum with PHantom town, or trying to buddy up to HipLop. Either way I don't like it, not to mention that he never actually voted Colbalt, to possibly try and receive town credit. @VakKiller - What's your read on HipLop now?

Concerning the kill. X40 started to look stronger going into the end of the day. He did suspect VaxKiller, and normally I would say that the killing was too weak, but if VaxKiller and HipLop were scum partners, I could see X40 being the kill to stop additional pressure day 2.

VOTE: VaxKiller

1 thing to consider,

IF

we lynch wrong today, and

IF

a kill goes through, then it's possibly LyLo (Lynch or Lose) tomorrow.

@reso
590
609

You're essentially saying I went from having people like Maverick defend me, to making a play to make them turn against me. It doesn't make sense. It is very illogical

[hiplop]

no idea why that quote is there

[hiplop]

Yeah, I would like to see that too. I think we were starting to see a little of it, but, too little to late. I'm sure it might be hard for some people to separate RL and the game, but I think those of us who are left are all adults, right?

@innocentvillager Why is hiplop obvtown? I'm pretty sure you and him are the only people who think that.

Posts like this serve no function other than shade throwing IMO. I really, really think vax is scum

[hiplop]

@maverick

Now do you see why IV is town? You should. He is bleeding town. When hes here, hes very obvtown.

Now do you see why I was so confident?

[RyanK]

Spoiler: reso 738

You all seem to be forgetting that hiplop is putting an inordinately small amount of effort into this game. Remember, in his RQS that I wrote, he said he tries a lot harder as scum. He doesn't give a fuck this game. His reads make sense, he is just commenting when he feels like it (very lazy-experienced town attitude for someone who prefers scum), and this crumb shit is totally unnecessary as scum and no scum motivation other than a terrible PR rolefish if it is one and I highly doubt hiplop is that terrible or trolly as scum to do that.

Here is his complete statement:

5) (for those who have played before) What's your towngame like, and what's your scumgame like?
Hmmm... I try to shake things up. Especially once your meta becomes known being able to adapt both is super important. I think I've played too many games for their to a concrete answer to either of these? I tend to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I prefer the Mafia alignment, though, so I tend to put a little more effort in.

You're right in that he has stated that he 'tends to put a little more effort in' (you over-exaggerated it; why choose to over-exaggerate than simply tell it as it is? At the moment, I perceive this as an indirect AoE). But before that statement, he's also said he tends to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I would have loved to see this 'aggressive'-ness, but instead we get what you have described him as, 'very lazy-experienced'. I agree that he doesn't give a fuck about this game. He's being anti-game, and want him to get his act in order. I want to see his Beast-mode.

Hiplop definitely prefers the mafia alignment, and he said he would put more effort in.

Look at Newbie 1704, for example. He was V/LA many times during that game, but he still managed to post a LOT even while in that game.

His tone is also completely different. I don't see any lackadaisical-town vibes from it, hiplop always looked like he has some sort of agenda in that game. Here, honestly I see no agenda for hiplop, and that combined with the fact that he tries more/is better at/likes mafia-alignment, are all strong clues that he's town here. I suggest you all at least skim hiplop's ISO that game if you are voting for him and see if that changes your mind, I'll admit this is a bit less concrete than a lot of townreads.
...

He however may have changed his meta on purpose. It's too simple for him to change his meta. Or maybe he didn't...

I hereby declare that your argument is pretty much a WIFOM, and WIFOM arguments aren't to be trusted.

Also, he decided to lie that he was an aggressive player as either alignment. His play has been anything but that.

[RyanK]

EBWOP: Also, he decided to lie that he was known to be aggressive as either alignment, but his play has been anything but that.

[Vaxkiller]

@maverick

Now do you see why IV is town? You should. He is bleeding town. When hes here, hes very obvtown.

Now do you see why I was so confident?

Hiplop trying to prove his innocence by trying convincing us someone else is town...

[Vaxkiller]

@innocentvillager When hiplop flips scum, who would most likely seem to be his scum partner?

[RyanK]

@IV - So to confirm, you are sayign that HipLop is town, correct?

Yeah.

There were definitely multiple points in the thread where I would be thinking something and hiplop just came in and posted exact same thoughts. Like e.g. stuff on how Vaxkiller looked super gut scummy but he couldn't put a finger to it thing.

There is no scum motivation for doing what he's doing today.

You all seem to be forgetting that hiplop is putting an inordinately small amount of effort into this game. Remember, in his RQS that I wrote, he said he tries a lot harder as scum. He doesn't give a fuck this game. His reads make sense, he is just commenting when he feels like it (very lazy-experienced town attitude for someone who prefers scum), and this crumb shit is totally unnecessary as scum and no scum motivation other than a terrible PR rolefish if it is one and I highly doubt hiplop is that terrible or trolly as scum to do that.

Yeah Vax is pinging my gut scumdar so hard.

I really thought innocent villager, but that seems WAY to obvious, but then maybe its just WIFOM.....

Like does this quote for one just not sound terrible and extremely forced

innocentvillager seems to be trying to remove suspicion on hiplop in the first post, and place suspicion on vaxkiller by stating and opinion in the second post, then AtE in the third post. A perfect combination to manupulate minds.

[reso]

@reso
590
609

You're essentially saying I went from having people like Maverick defend me, to making a play to make them turn against me. It doesn't make sense. It is very illogical

I'm sorry, but I'm not quite following this. I'm not seeing exactly how Post 590 and Post 609 connect with your statement.

[Vedith]

Hiplop trying to prove his innocence by trying convincing us someone else is town...

He's actually explaining his read there, not his own alignment.

[reso]

@reso
590
609

You're essentially saying I went from having people like Maverick defend me, to making a play to make them turn against me. It doesn't make sense. It is very illogical

I'm sorry, but I'm not quite following this. I'm not seeing exactly how Post 590 and Post 609 connect with your statement.

EBWOP: As in, I'm not seeing people defend you in Post 590, and I'm not seeing people suddenly turning against your in Post 609.

[reso]

I hereby declare that your argument is pretty much a WIFOM, and WIFOM arguments aren't to be trusted.

While on the subject of WIFOM, I'd like to point that Maverick's argument for Vax being town is based off of WIFOM (if anyone has forgotten).

As much as I don't want to indulge in WIFOM, I'd say that 0x40's death makes it less likely to Vax to be scum. I'm going to go ahead and remove him from my list of potential scum. I really don't know what to make of Ryan. It looks like overeager newbtown but at the same time I can't ignore the shift from him placing the hammer vote and voting me for causing a mislynch. It's very forced.

As are my own reasons for Vax and Maverick being town as well.

I personally find 0x40's death interesting. For the majority of Day 1, he spent the majority of the day tunneled on Vaxkiller, but at the very end, he played an untunneled game. Would his fate have been different if he had stayed tunneled on Vaxkiller? To me, this possibility makes Vaxkiller seem less likely to be scum, but not necessarily more likely to be town.

I've previously mentioned in my #585 that I don't think that Vaxkiller is scum. It's more or less the same reason as Maverick's #589. For the same sort of reason, just with a different set of people, I think Maverick isn't scum because I am still alive. The end of Day 1 ended with me being particular biased against Maverick, especially for this general Day 1 attitude against people that didn't think the way he did. I think it would be fair to say that if Cobalt flipped town, it would have easy to assume that I would continue to go after Maverick. I realize that both the Vaxkiller not-scum and the Maverick not-scum are WIFOM arguments, but I think arguing about the WIFOM nature of such arguments are a moot point, so I decide to go with one side of the argument and deal with the consequences afterwards.

[RyanK]

I hereby declare that your argument is pretty much a WIFOM, and WIFOM arguments aren't to be trusted.

While on the subject of WIFOM, I'd like to point that Maverick's argument for Vax being town is based off of WIFOM (if anyone has forgotten).

As much as I don't want to indulge in WIFOM, I'd say that 0x40's death makes it less likely to Vax to be scum. I'm going to go ahead and remove him from my list of potential scum. I really don't know what to make of Ryan. It looks like overeager newbtown but at the same time I can't ignore the shift from him placing the hammer vote and voting me for causing a mislynch. It's very forced.

As are my own reasons for Vax and Maverick being town as well.

I personally find 0x40's death interesting. For the majority of Day 1, he spent the majority of the day tunneled on Vaxkiller, but at the very end, he played an untunneled game. Would his fate have been different if he had stayed tunneled on Vaxkiller? To me, this possibility makes Vaxkiller seem less likely to be scum, but not necessarily more likely to be town.

I've previously mentioned in my #585 that I don't think that Vaxkiller is scum. It's more or less the same reason as Maverick's #589. For the same sort of reason, just with a different set of people, I think Maverick isn't scum because I am still alive. The end of Day 1 ended with me being particular biased against Maverick, especially for this general Day 1 attitude against people that didn't think the way he did. I think it would be fair to say that if Cobalt flipped town, it would have easy to assume that I would continue to go after Maverick. I realize that both the Vaxkiller not-scum and the Maverick not-scum are WIFOM arguments, but I think arguing about the WIFOM nature of such arguments are a moot point, so I decide to go with one side of the argument and deal with the consequences afterwards.

My main point on WIFOM arguments are that they shouldn't be used as a base to determine if someone is a scum or town. If I accidentally used this method, please point it out to prevent biased conclusions from me.

[reso]

I wasn't singling you out for anything. I was just reminding people that such arguments vouching for the town-ness of people based off of WIFOM have sprung up before, and that we have more or less taken them for granted judging from the lack of response to said arguments. YOU GOOD MAN.

[RyanK]

I wasn't singling you out for anything. I was just reminding people that such arguments vouching for the town-ness of people based off of WIFOM have sprung up before, and that we have more or less taken them for granted judging from the lack of response to said arguments. YOU GOOD MAN.

Sorry, thought you misunderstood my point of WIFOM arguments.

[RyanK]

For now, the only non-WIFOM arguments we have are of hiplop and innocentvillager. Please make your defense, hiplop and innocentvillager. You wouldn't want a hammer from me 24 hours before Day 2's deadline.

[reso]

For now, the only non-WIFOM arguments we have are of hiplop and innocentvillager. Please make your defense, hiplop and innocentvillager. You wouldn't want a hammer from me 24 hours before Day 2's deadline.

Is this contradictory? Non-WIFOM arguments shouldn't need more defenses.

[RyanK]

For now, the only non-WIFOM arguments we have are of hiplop and innocentvillager. Please make your defense, hiplop and innocentvillager. You wouldn't want a hammer from me 24 hours before Day 2's deadline.

Is this contradictory? Non-WIFOM arguments shouldn't need more defenses.

Nope. innocentvillager and hiplop haven't responded to the non-WIFOM arguments I have against them (post 758 & post 706).

[RyanK]

For now, the only non-WIFOM arguments we have are of hiplop and innocentvillager. Please make your defense, hiplop and innocentvillager. You wouldn't want a hammer from me 24 hours before Day 2's deadline.

Is this contradictory? Non-WIFOM arguments shouldn't need more defenses.

Just got your point. Maybe my attacks are WIFOM, but at least they are backed with points.

On second thought, every argument has a WIFOM element. So, WIFOM can't be prevented and a hypothesis has to be made while we wait for it to be proven wrong. Usually backed arguments are stronger and increases the probability of the situation being the way one guesses it is.

[RyanK]

EBWOP: Usually backed arguments are stronger as it increases the probability of the situation being the way one guesses it is.

[Maverick1102]

V/LA until Monday evening

I'm working at Boardmasters festival and I'll be away from mobile coverage for quite a while. Sporadic posts if I get signal.

[hiplop]

@reso
590
609

You're essentially saying I went from having people like Maverick defend me, to making a play to make them turn against me. It doesn't make sense. It is very illogical

I'm sorry, but I'm not quite following this. I'm not seeing exactly how Post 590 and Post 609 connect with your statement.

EBWOP: As in, I'm not seeing people defend you in Post 590, and I'm not seeing people suddenly turning against your in Post 609.

you asked me for examples of people throwing suspicion on iv?? Thats what that was

[hiplop]

Hope youre having fun mav. Look forward to your return

[Vedith]

VOTE: Vax

IV and HipLop can't be scum together for me. I don't think they would buddy like that to save each other.
Vax justifies why HipLop can be town, HipLop doesn't justify why IV can be town, but it adds up for neither as scum.

This puts both Vax and HipLop at L1.
Which is the first time this game 2 have strong wagons.

Vax tries to discredit HipLop in 756 which can easily be used against HipLop (blaming him) if he flips town.