Queen of Hearts [Game Over]

[Froot Loop]

Pedit: The Bulge was also a bodyguard. I'm not sure how many is reasonable to have in the game.

@Vedith

I think Muffin's town because of the interaction with ira, I'm also town-reading CKD and was Hark.
About thenewearth - a different site I played on had double voters as normally town-aligned but I don't see that in the wiki here. Is it a common scum role?
Seraph - waiting for the confirmation of the neighbourizer. I'm worried about his claim, like I said before, and other aspects of his play.
I think UT's play is quite town but I'm also worried that he hasn't said anything about looking at my other games. I guess that's playstyle, but I'm not very comfortable with it.
About you - I don't know why you would have thought grapes was flip-flopping when he definitely hadn't. If you're town, I don't know where that thought/suspicion would come from. As scum, you could've seen the naked vote and jumped on it, without properly looking at grapes' play.

I don't really have any feelings about anyone else. I want to have a look at DGB because some people have been talking about her.

[FakeGod]

VoteCount 2.2

Froot Loop [1] - Ankamius
Wingback [1] - SirCakez
DrippingGoofball [1] - Seraphim
iraonavp [4] - zMuffinMan, Katsuki, Untrod Tripod, Froot Loop
zMuffinMan [1] - iraonavp

Not Voting [7]

- DrippingGoofball, Spiffeh, Wingback, Vedith, PeregrineV, thenewearth, curiouskarmadog

With 15 alive it takes 8 votes to lynch.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2016-08-29 15:00:00)

[curiouskarmadog]

I think Muffin's town because of the interaction with ira, I'm also town-reading CKD and was Hark.
.

since when?

[SirCakez]

Wingback, why haven't you provided any content yet?
Remember, you need to post your content here, not in the thread with the purple background

[curiouskarmadog]

lol

[curiouskarmadog]

mod prod Wingback

[Wingback]

Hi! Haven't managed to get down to reading this game yet as I've been focusing elsewhere. But I have every intention of sitting down and reading and participating. I'm not one to flake. You're just going to have to wait until I get to it.

Just noticed deadline is in four days so I'll try to aim for tomorrow morning at the latest but most likely just finish up tonight.

[Vedith]

Pedit: The Bulge was also a bodyguard. I'm not sure how many is reasonable to have in the game.

@Vedith

I think Muffin's town because of the interaction with ira, I'm also town-reading CKD and was Hark.
About thenewearth - a different site I played on had double voters as normally town-aligned but I don't see that in the wiki here. Is it a common scum role?
Seraph - waiting for the confirmation of the neighbourizer. I'm worried about his claim, like I said before, and other aspects of his play.
I think UT's play is quite town but I'm also worried that he hasn't said anything about looking at my other games. I guess that's playstyle, but I'm not very comfortable with it.
About you - I don't know why you would have thought grapes was flip-flopping when he definitely hadn't. If you're town, I don't know where that thought/suspicion would come from. As scum, you could've seen the naked vote and jumped on it, without properly looking at grapes' play.

I don't really have any feelings about anyone else. I want to have a look at DGB because some people have been talking about her.

Having more than 2 would be over kill. It's now to decide if they are both town.
I don't really like the Ira votes. He's a different style of player imo. The fact he couldn't understand Muffin's reasoning on him and has the mind set that he's more or less confirmed town highly suggests town to me.
Muffin I'll agree is town, putting way too much effort into framing someone as scum.
TNE I haven't had many games with yet, seems a lot less aggressive than I remember though, but that could purely be down to many things like player list, setup etc.
Sera wouldn't be scum while attacking me after my claim, only thing that would be more doubtful was that he switched off me easier than expected.
UT seems to be looking for an easier lynch with the Ira situation, trying to throw mud in the water for me. Saw an opportunity and grabbed it.
I'm not worried about your thoughts on me, I'm trying to get a better idea of your play here, it seems to be quieter than before, but again, many things can be the cause of that.

DGB I am going to say will most likely be unreadable to me this game, lately in games she just hasn't had any motivation it seems to play to her potential. Hopefully things pick up because I like playing with DGB town.

Do you have an opinion on Katsuki? Or Wingback?

What if I told you I think Katsuki is scum trying to coast by on the game?

[zMuffinMan]

I think ZMuffin is town but I'm not sure about IRA. Some posts which I think are weird:

Because I saw what he was doing, and

wanted to make my claim more believable

, and signal to him not to protect me.

I don't think this is something a town player would/should think about.

i agree with this btw (shocking plot twist, i know)

iraon's whole thing about his role softing is that scum would never do it because the role is expected to die

but from town-iraon-as-a-bodyguard's point of view, why would he want to make his claim more believable. he should have expected to die long before he ever needed to claim (i know things didn't turn out that way in this game, but the point still stands). town wouldn't be concerned about making their claim more believable because, well, a town bodyguard makes their claim believable by dying for the cause

why would he need to set up something for himself later in the game?

hint: because he didn't expect to die any time soon

[zMuffinMan]

anyway, i want to talk about iraon's d1. i'm not going to spend the time talking about everything i didn't like about it, i will just select a few key posts that irked me and led to me thinking he was scum at the end of d1

But I am not going to vote you because I want to avoid making myself look like I am backing Harkonnen97's post which I don't think is a very good reason for a vote.

No, I don't think it will look bad on me. I just don't want to support your reasoning, and I already have a good vote on grapes.

i don't think these posts are particularly telling by themselves, but they are part of a larger body of work where iraon is overly concerned with things a town player shouldn't really be concerned with. town generally aren't concerned with what their vote looks like to others beyond whether people will agree with it or not. town generally aren't conscious of the fact that if they vote someone they think is scum, it'll make it look like they're supporting someone else's vote (unless that's what they're actually doing)

I think Harkonnen97 is town-aligned, because he is fearlessly and very fast. It looks like you just caught him in fake semantic traps, I especially think Untrod Tripod's vote is scum-aligned.

this post is the first of iraon's i really didn't like

the town read on hark here (when a wagon had started forming) isn't that much of a concern (even though i thought the timing of it looked like someone intervening to make himself look better), it's just the entire structure of this post that bothers me. it is hard to quite explain what i'm talking about here, but i want to say that i think if iraon were town, he wouldn't have justified the hark town read in the way he did here (if he even justified it at all, which i don't know that he would have done here as town)

Okay, I guess grapes is literally hiplop then so we can't tell with him at all...

Untrod Tripod's unvote was in conjunction with Marquis' post about how 132 made Harkonnen97 town-aligned, but Untrod Tripod didn't know how to explain it and just used it as an excuse.

Then, when I asked Untrod Tripod about how his response made no sense at all, he just acted confused, which is a scum-aligned response trying to escape his obviously fake read...

both the tone and the content of the first line here didn't read as very natural to me - the grapes comment here in particular just stuck out to me as something i don't really imagine a town player saying

the point about untrod tripod here is also nonsensical (how, for example, does a scum player "escape" anything by acting "confused"?)

I think he is town-aligned for interacting with curiouskarmacycle's post about not being doctor...

this post bothered me the first time around reading it, because it looked like a pretty weak justification for a town read

in hindsight, it makes sense given his role but bothers me in a different way, precisely because i don't think a town player who is a bodyguard in a game where multiple exist would assume every bodyguard claim soft/claim he sees is going to be town (even if they may not be bodyguard softs)

anyway, these are some key things that bothered me d1

i will say that when he was pushing seraphim i had doubts and i was of the mind that if seraphim was scum, i didn't think iraon's push on him was coming from a buddy. but given it's quite possible that seraphim isn't scum (i still want him to verify his claim well before lylo on a night where the previous lynch wasn't easy to predict), that's out the window and i could easily see seraphim just being his default-go-to-lynch-that-isn't-going-to-make-any-waves

the only posts from iraon i kind of liked d1 was this:

very well then!

This is the primary source, the highest concentration of scum-alignment in the thread...

i thought this post was kinda sorta town-looking the first time i read it

but i don't feel strongly about it and it's not something that weighs heavily against the things i didn't like about his play

[Froot Loop]

I think Muffin's town because of the interaction with ira, I'm also town-reading CKD and was Hark.
.

since when?

The read on you? Pretty early on. I think your play during D1 was townie.

@Vedith - you might not be worried about my thoughts about your play but I'm talking about something specific which worries me and you haven't offered an explanation.

Having more than 2 would be over kill. It's now to decide if they are both town.

Sooo, what do you think?

I don't really like the Ira votes. He's a different style of player imo. The fact he couldn't understand Muffin's reasoning on him and has the mind set that he's more or less confirmed town highly suggests town to me.

That's easily fabricated. Especially since ira's responses don't have a coherent theme as far as I can see. He's saying "that doesn't make sense" and "I'm town" a lot. Basically, if it seemed like ira thought they were having a different conversation, and contributed to that conversation, I'd think it's less likely to be fake. ira doesn't look like he's having any conversation.

So you think that ira did forget that a bookie was a role, despite the game two months ago? This is the post I have a problem with:

yes you wouldn't feign ignorance of the bookie confirmed to be in the game as scum, in a way that doesn't even really make sense (honestly, even if you have no clue about the setup, why would you ask that in the first place without, oh, i dunno, reading the setup), and then attempt to cover up the fact that this is what you were trying to do

I thought it was an word for describing someone like "VI", not a role...

I think ira got caught out when Muffin starting asking about it and this is how he justified the question, but this post is contradicted by the other game.

I'm not really thinking that much about Seraph. I'm worried, but if we get the info about the neighbourhood then it'll be more settled. I'm more open to UT but I've read some of his play as town.

Do you have an opinion on Katsuki? Or Wingback?

What if I told you I think Katsuki is scum trying to coast by on the game?

Could be. Neither of them have done very much so it's possible. There's a lot of players in the game I'd put in that category. Why do you think Katsuki's scum over some of the others?

[Untrod Tripod]

Having more than 2 would be over kill

iirc DGB soft-claimed bodyguard

[Vedith]

@Vedith - you might not be worried about my thoughts about your play but I'm talking about something specific which worries me and you haven't offered an explanation.

I don't need to offer an explanation. If you feel what I did was scummy then voice your opinion over it.

Sooo, what do you think?

I mean, I've kind of already answered this.

That's easily fabricated. Especially since ira's responses don't have a coherent theme as far as I can see. He's saying "that doesn't make sense" and "I'm town" a lot. Basically, if it seemed like ira thought they were having a different conversation, and contributed to that conversation, I'd think it's less likely to be fake. ira doesn't look like he's having any conversation.

So you think that ira did forget that a bookie was a role, despite the game two months ago? This is the post I have a problem with:

Plausable, just not probably.
I'm not going to say if Ira actually forgot his role or not as only he knows, all I'm going to say is that I myself forget many roles I've been in. There's roles I've been that I've probably forgotten what they do. Ira plays in several games a time so it's not out of the question, but again, I can't say.
One thing that crossed my mind is if he faked it as town to get conversation going and it back fired.
There's also the point from Muffin where he tried to claim lack of knowledge in the game he posted, but I'm not sure if he was town or scum in that game I haven't looked yet.

I think ira got caught out when Muffin starting asking about it and this is how he justified the question, but this post is contradicted by the other game.

I'm not really thinking that much about Seraph. I'm worried, but if we get the info about the neighbourhood then it'll be more settled. I'm more open to UT but I've read some of his play as town.

I can see that, I just think it was too easy of a fumble considering it's Ira.
His post contradicting again could have reason depending what he was there.
If he was scum, of course his opinion contradicts if he's in a town mindset now, if he was town there then sure, I could see him in a lot less of a town set mind now.

Could be. Neither of them have done very much so it's possible. There's a lot of players in the game I'd put in that category. Why do you think Katsuki's scum over some of the others?

[Vedith]

I am certain there is more than one in this game.

@UT - This does not look like a soft claim to a BG.
I checked her other posts and see nothing else you can have thought as it.

[iraonavp]

I think this is a TvT
Irao's response has been pretty good IMO, he argued with zMuffon for 5 pages and I don't think he'd have that conviction as scum
I think zMuffon is town too, but I don't think what he's pushing is correct

also (and I hate it when people say this in games, I almost always think they are scum instantly when they say this...but) I think Ira and Muffin are both town engaged in a town on town hate crime.

I'm not at all surprised to see people immediately think that tunneling means they are town-aligned...

Ira, do you really think Muffin is scum? to me it looks like he is scum hunting and probably tunneling.

Yes, I am beyond certain.

He doesn't really think I am scum-aligned, and he knows that people will think he is town-aligned if he cyberbullies me and spams sarcastic rhetoric... If he was town-aligned he would evaluate more and not make sarcastic and weak rebuttals to discredit valid points.

scum dont tunnel. they lie and act like they are tunneling.

I know, that's what I mean...

I dont think Muffin is scum. if I had a gun pointed to my head and I HAD to pick between the two of you, I would say you were scum. he meta-ed you...he found a game where you knew what a bookie was. SO you really dont "understand" where town would immediate tunnel on you thinking they caught you in a lie?

speaking of which.

Muffin, can you provide that game again.

Because I didn't know what a bookie was, it was just a game with a bookie in it!

[iraonavp]

you raise a good point mr cake

i also think that if iraon were scum, he wouldn't argue back when someone calls him scum, he would just accept it and admit he's scum or something... i also think that if he were scum and thought his role would make him seem town, there's not a chance he'd argue about that either

i think your meta point about him (that you've never seen him roll scum but you can guess how differently he'd act) is also fairly strong

i may have to look elsewhere today

Exactly, you're scum-aligned...

See, there is no way that he makes those posts if he is town-aligned because it's just deflecting and so fake!

this doesnt make ANY SENSE at all. how is he deflecting? who is he deflecting to? What is he delfecting? how do these post mean he is scum-aligned?

He isn't giving a straight answer to SirCakez's valid point and instead has an almost pathological need to discredit anyone who disagrees with him using fake, scum-aligned sarcasm.

[zMuffinMan]

what valid point

[iraonavp]

and for what it's worth, Irao would ABSOLUTELY have this kind of conviction as scum

So you think I am bussing?

uhhhhhhhhhhhh who would you be bussing?

zMuffinMan, how can I have conviction as scum-aligned unless zMuffinMan is also scum-aligned?

[iraonavp]

what valid point

That I have nothing to gain from arguing with you if I'm scum-aligned.

[iraonavp]

@ira - I've snipped a bit but let me know if there's something you want me to answer.

I'm surprised that ira has such a firm town-read on CKD based on the evidence he's said. I agree with Muffin's point that the game would be a bit broken if the bodyguards could identify each other and they'd be confirmed town which makes me think there is a scum bodyguard in the game, or, at least, that scum had knowledge about the bodyguard situation. If that's the case, it's easy to manipulate. I would imagine that a town player would entertain that idea more seriously than blindly town-reading another player who has claimed bodyguard, which I also don't think CKD has actually done.

What?

curiouskarmadog's play from that point was also town-aligned, but I was already convinced that he was town-aligned from his first post.

Your role PM implies that there's multiple bodyguards in the game. Do you take from that that all the bodyguards are town? If you do, do you think it's possible that scum have some way of meddling with that assumption? This also backs-up the idea that scum might fake-claim BG, if they know that it's likely to buy a town-read from other(s.)

This is the post of Muffin's:

Because I saw that curiouskarmacycle was softclaiming bodyguard because my role PM implies the existence of multiple, and I understood his request not to express town-aligned reads because all bodyguards die if they visit the same target, not just one. And, I am card like The Bulge who you guys lynched for no reason.

ah, right, and i'm supposed to believe that your role makes you town, am i?

are all bodyguards in this game town?

gee, fakegod, you're a pretty shit mod for overlooking the fact that you made a whole bunch of people innocent children in this game

My point, as well, is that I think a town bodyguard would have asked these questions as well but you don't seem to have.

I didn't care about that, it's not important. If there's scum-aligned bodyguard, they would not crumb on day 1 because it's terrible to claim even if you are that role.

I also think the original point Muffin pointed out is quite compelling. ira asked what a bookie was AND said that he thought it was a term similar to VI but there's evidence that he's previously known what a bookie is. Like, I can agree that it's possible that he forgot what the role does exactly but I don't think it's very plausible that he forgot it's an actual role, rather than a term. Either way, I don't think it'd make sense if he'd read the setup, I think it's more likely that he didn't read the setup and asked that question for town-cred.

What?

If I didn't read the setup, why would I ask that question for "town-cred" if I didn't know that it was displayed on the first post?

The entire thing that zMuffinMan is arguing is that I read the setup, his reasoning doesn't work without it! This is complete nonsense.

How could I have forgotten what the role is if it's on my team?

There is no evidence that I knew what a bookie is, just posts where I referenced it. I even asked what it was, I don't remember anyone answering.

You've said that you didn't read the set-up, so you didn't know that the bookie was public knowledge. I think you asked what a bookie was so we would think that you didn't know because you're not scum. You asked what it was, then you said you thought it was a term like VI. I think it's unlikely you would have had the conversation you had in the other game and not remember, at least, that bookie is a role.

Well, I didn't remember that obviously... That game was a marathon game which was very fast, I couldn't even remember that game really.

If I was scum-aligned, I know there's no realistic gain from faking something like that, everyone will just say it's null-aligned. I asked what it was because zMuffinMan's statement was potentially scum-aligned.

VOTE: iraonavp

Why are you voting me if you are "not sure" to start with? I am town-aligned.

I'm not sure you're town. Your replies in this conversation have made me think you're scum.

My replies in this conversation were not there when you voted me...

[iraonavp]

I think ZMuffin is town but I'm not sure about IRA. Some posts which I think are weird:

Because I saw what he was doing, and

wanted to make my claim more believable

, and signal to him not to protect me.

I don't think this is something a town player would/should think about.

i agree with this btw (shocking plot twist, i know)

iraon's whole thing about his role softing is that scum would never do it because the role is expected to die

but from town-iraon-as-a-bodyguard's point of view, why would he want to make his claim more believable. he should have expected to die long before he ever needed to claim (i know things didn't turn out that way in this game, but the point still stands). town wouldn't be concerned about making their claim more believable because, well, a town bodyguard makes their claim believable by dying for the cause

why would he need to set up something for himself later in the game?

hint: because he didn't expect to die any time soon

So I don't get mislynched... I know there is low chances of guessing who is killed.

This is presenting in a very black-and-white way, as if there is a contradiction where there is none. You are literally saying I am scum-aligned for softclaiming my role, you can't really believe that!

[zMuffinMan]

I know there is low chances of guessing who is killed

gee, if that were true, that sounds like it would be a decent thing for claim to scum then

[zMuffinMan]

You are literally saying I am scum-aligned for softclaiming my role, you can't really believe that!

i do, actually. though not as you're presenting it. soft-claiming happens all the time. the way you did it here, though? it looks specifically like you were soft-claiming it with a specific purpose in mind; because you thought it would make you seem town

funny enough, when going over your games, i saw you'd rolled bodyguard once before

tell me, did you crumb your role in that game?

[zMuffinMan]

That I have nothing to gain from arguing with you if I'm scum-aligned.

right...

i'm going to ignore the fact that you've openly stated you thought people would assume "tunneling" was a town trait...

the obvious counter-point here is that if you are scum and you didn't argue back, then you'd essentially be betting whether or not you live or die on how convincing i can be while you remain quiet, which is something i doubt you'd want to do even with someone who is less likely to get their preferred lynch to happen. arguing back really is and was your only option as scum. cakez's point is utter garbage, regardless of whether or not he's right or wrong

[SirCakez]

What if I told you I think Katsuki is scum trying to coast by on the game?

I am beginning to feel this way (know this wasn't aimed at me)
This lurking is fitting Katsuki's scum game to a T