Mini Normal 1814 Machiavellian Mafia (Game Over)

[gerryoat]

why have a jailer and a weak doctor? that sounds redundant to me

[gerryoat]

and yeah Nero, just like you said DW was definitely scum.

[iraonavp]

Ira what would your lynch order be?

NEROCAIN, then one of BigYoshiFan or MariaR (not sure currently, probably MariaR I just need to see BigYoshiFan show more town-aligned), then you.

[iraonavp]

JOAT/Weak Doctor/Jailkeeper doesnt make much sense.

I'd ask why but you know you are just scum parroting everything that Ira says.

I mean, if I have to take a mislynch so you morons will actually lynch scum then so be it. Just lynch Gerry and BYF when I flip.

It's impossible, even the JOAT has a bodyguard!

[BigYoshiFan]

I'm a town 2-shot commuter, vote Zap's ass now.

[Zap Rowsdower]

This fucking game

[Zap Rowsdower]

BYF, please point out any crumbs.

Nero, please point out any crumbs and say who you targeted on which nights and why.

[Zap Rowsdower]

You seem like a pretty experienced player. I would expect you to know tht there can be some really weird vote switching to guarantee a lynch close to deadline. If you so strongly prefered an Ira lynch at the end of day 1, then why didn't you really make that clear before a map lynch became virtually guaranteed?

I don't remember the exact circumstances honestly. It's possible I had a busy day at work or was traveling or something, and that meant that I wasn't keeping up as well in the game and seeing how close we were getting to deadline without a lynch.

That being said, what I do know is that I didn't strongly prefer an ira lynch. At the time I was super scumreading Elyse and I think BYF was my number two pick for scum. Would've lynched probably a lot of people over Map. So I preferred an ira lynch

in lieu of

a mapwolf lynch, but I must have either not been following along closely as we approached deadline or otherwise thought that there was a chance for a lynch that was better than both mapwolf and ira.

Similarly, how could you miss that CR was at L-1 at the end of day 2?

The mod hadn't posted a votecount in a while, so I was looking at an old votecount. Slipped my mind that people had voted him since that VC.

[MariaR]

Okay Ira you had me as town the whole game so now I'm scum for trying to push on my strongest sr I have not been pushing on anyone besides Gerry today I even said Nero can be scum but I want to go on the one read I am 100% sure on I'm not gonna go on and list a ton of reasons why i'm town like day 1 and stuff like that but I think my actions themselves should prove that

Now with that out of the way what the fk what do these roles even do

[Zap Rowsdower]

While I'm waiting for Nero's and BYF's responses about their claims, I have something else to add.

Another reason why Nero's/Maria's/BYF's scenario where I'm scum and used some roleblocking ability to fake-clear myself doesn't make sense: it relies on scum knowing what Elyse's exact role was by the end of D2.

Because it wouldn't make sense for scum to use a RB to fake-clear themselves if Elyse was just a cop. All that would do is block Elyse's ability and she wouldn't give a fake clear. No, in order for this scenario to work, me-scum would've had to have known that Elyse was a weak cop. Which implies that the scumteam has some investigative role and got lucky enough that they targeted Elyse with it N1.

Except I can show you exactly where I realized that Elyse was a PR. It was D3, long after I would've needed to know her role if I were scum trying to fake-clear myself. Here's where I still kinda thought she was scum, but noticed that it didn't make much sense for her to drop her scumread on me if she was scum:

I'm trying to figure out right now whether Elyse is genuinely acting like town or if she's executing some strategy to make me/others think she's town

And here's where I went back through Elyse's ISO and found the posts that made her look very clearly like a town investigative:

Eh I'm fine dropping Elyse for a while. Let's go this direction instead.

VOTE: BYF

I didn't do a big 180 on Elyse and announce that I was townreading her because I was hoping she could survive the night and give us another result today. But I did kind of avoid talking about her and started pushing BYF really hard, as well as taking the Wake slot out of consideration as a possible lynch and start looking into Nero. Later on I kinda hinted that I knew Elyse was a PR:

One, I've soured on my scumread on Elyse. Not entirely because of the reaction test she did at the beginning of the game, but yeah.

But the important thing here is the timeline. Remember that in order for Nero's scenario to work, scum would've had to have known by the end of D2 that Elyse was a weak cop. And I was scumreading Elyse super hard -- like to the point where I wasn't even doing that much work on other players -- through the beginning of D3, up until the point where Elyse crumbed her result on me.

This is important because Nero was the one who tried to push this theory (although we still need to work through his claim). This is important because at least one town (probably Maria) is somehow buying this. And it's important because I really just want to die tonight.

[MariaR]

Okay Zap that's all fine and dandy and I was just trying to think of pr's people had so you don't need to stress but honestly I want to lynch Gerry or die trying it's the one read I've been so sure of the whole game and the fact people are just letting it slip by is pissing me off

Also holy crap 4 pr's with really good skills

[Zap Rowsdower]

I am not new to forum maf

I would agree it was a town slip if it wasn't for that statement

Even other forums that have mafia games are not like ours. I've been on a few, they just do not play like us. Day/night phases work differently (I've been on one site where days last like 48 hours). Customs are different (the fact that scum can only ever use their faction chat at night wherever Maria comes from is a good example). Roles are used differently.

You've been getting way, way, WAY too hung up on the "newb" wording and arguing semantics with it. What matters is not his level of experience. What matters is that there are only two explanations for Gerry's posting, and only one of them isn't batshit fucking crazy:

1. Gerry is town, and because he's new

TO MAFIASCUM

, he didn't understand how the traitor role worked. In showing that he didn't know, he unknowingly exposed that he isn't scum. Michel brings up a good detail here -- it's not just that he didn't know, it's that he continued to misunderstand the role as practically everybody else in the fucking game told him he was wrong. That suggests a true lack of knowledge. Somebody who was pretending not to understand would've just said "ohhhhhhhh lel kk thx guize."
2. Gerry is scum, and understood how the traitor role worked, and decided he was going to do all this work and write up this big fucking post explaining his reads on everybody where the premise of the post -- that scum knew who their traitor was -- was flawed. All in the hopes that somebody would townread him for it. And then, when several people pointed out how he was wrong about it, instead of dropping it he continued to act like he didn't understand for...some reason.

[MariaR]

You underestimating what someone can plan that could just be me but having the ability to plan out your posts and type each word is a huge factor and it's why I can see someone can PLAN THIS OUT

I understand where you're coming from with that idea in mind I just think it's too safe to assume it so quickly if I was to say Gerry was town one of my STRONG town reads would have to be scum and I don't really know who it would be

[Zap Rowsdower]

You underestimating what someone can plan that could just be me but having the ability to plan out your posts and type each word is a huge factor and it's why I can see someone can PLAN THIS OUT

I think you're overestimating the likelihood. It's actually part of why I think you're town -- you've demonstrated so many times throughout this game that you not only believe other people are always trying to deceive you, but that it's the most likely explanation for their behavior. It's super duper paranoid. Plus, scum tend to be more centered than that in my experience. They might leave open a possibility that somebody did something crazy and manipulative, but it's almost always couched in skepticism. Partly because they know it's not true, and when you know something for sure it's hard to tell whether a person who doesn't know for sure is going to find that deceptive-manipulative explanation to be likely. As scum people tend to go with the safer bet, in other words.

Personally I think that at least on this site scum just do not gambit and outright try to manipulate people all that much. In my experience the better strategy, and the one scum teams usually follow, is to simply try to play like they're town. Not to pull crazy strategies to fake-clear themselves that might or might not work.

[MariaR]

I think I finally understand why you sr Yoshi he's not playing in the mindset of a towny manner and doing crazy weird stuff that's out of line so you sr him is that right?

Do you see a lot of the comments Yoshi made coming from scum

To address your comment you could be right very much so I just feel like this is the strongest read I have and any other lynch you ask me to do will be taking a huge risk.

[MichelSableheart]

I've reread Elyse, and have to agree with zap regarding her nightchoices. my slot night 1, zap night 2 seems almost guaranteed. Also, given her last post in the thread, BYF night 3 seems very likely.

Given BYF and Nero's claims, I will consider Gerry town. zap is the only one who I could see as his teammate, but a Gerry-zap team would require a roleblocker to be possible (I don't believe that town Nero would target Elyse night 2). This would make the risk of Rosske receiving "no result" on his four already weaker investigation roles far too high to be balanced.

zap, from my point of view, you being cleared through a scum roleblocker is not as unlikely as you make it out to be, unfortunately. If you somehow picked up on Elyse during day 2, I could easily see you going "let's just block Elyse while we kill Rosske", and then accidentally get the fakeclear.

[Nero Cain]

I have no crumbs. Targeted CR n1 'cause you know scum and all that.

[MariaR]

I don't even know what Nero's role does like "non con" does that mean odd night is it important

[Nero Cain]

sable how do me and BYF claims make Gerry town?

[Nero Cain]

non consecutive means I can't use it in back to back nights.

[MariaR]

WHY DOES EVERYONE TOWNREAD-Okay I've accepted this loss I think mafia roleblocker is more likely then you think I'm not gonna push Zap today but I'm still pushing Gerry if it's the death of me for it so be it


Pedit: Ohhhh

[itlepip]

Votecount 4.1

Nero cain

-gerryoat, ironavp [L-2]

BigYoshiFan

Nero Cain [L-3]

Not voting (4)

-Zap Rowsdower,MichelSableheart,MariaR,BigYoshiFan,


With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch.

(expired on 2016-08-30 20:23:31) remain until day end

[/b]

[MariaR]

Oh i'm not voting?

VOTE: Gerry

[Nero Cain]

Like Zap is saying that scum would have KNOWN Elyse was a PR and Gerry is claiming that he KNEW she was a PR so I don't get why he's ignoring that.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I have no crumbs. Targeted CR n1 'cause you know scum and all that.

So you didn't use it N3? Why not?