Mini Normal 1825 - Game Over

[gameplay506]

@ryan this is the last time I ask - reads with arguments
You either do that or I start screaming rb style #LynchRyan #LynchScum
And please stop stalling your death with those semi-retarded questions directed at me. You ain't gonna get anything to use against me.

[Accountant]

VC 1.29

RyanK (4)

: gameplay506, Cass, Glitch, Martha Zolanski

gameplay506 (2)

: RyanK, pitoli

Glitch (2)

: Expedience, rb

Martha Zolanski (1)

: golden009

golden009 (1)

: Dierfire

Expedience (1)

: Chuck

Dierfire (1)

: Saru

Not Voting:

BlueBloodedToffee

With 13 alive, the majority is 7.

The deadline is in (expired on 2016-09-07 16:06:30)

[Dierfire]

@Saru

You asked me in 930 why I didn't feel a need to "go into an analytical read" before I placed my vote on gameplay506. I still feel as though we're not having the same conversation here. My vote in 131 was the best vote that I felt that I could make at the time. If I thought that there were more things to analyze that would provide a better vote, then I would have analyzed them and made a better vote!
Put another way: if you think that the posts up through 130 are such a fertile ground for analysis, then tell me what I'm missing. If you agree with me that those first 130 posts are not tremendously informative, then I don't understand your problem with my vote.
You asked me for an updated read on gameplay506. I will work on that immediately.

@pitoli

Dierfire what's up with you? Your vote has been on golden for awhile now, does that read still stand?

I was under the impression that new content from golden009 would be imminently forthcoming (653). My thought was that it would be a good idea to recheck my read after the new content arrived, for which reason I've prompted golden009 for that content multiple times. None has yet emerged. I'm working on reading gameplay506 now as requested by Saru, and my initial skim shows that we've seen slightly more activity from Glitch and Chuck since I was here last (although Glitch appears not to have responded to my 894, which is annoying) , so I'll get through those players in ISO as well and see whether I want to change my vote.

[Dierfire]

As promised, here is my review of gameplay506.
I think that the main lines of analysis that gameplay506 has offered are cases on rb (perhaps best encapsulated in 840) and RyanK (distributed throughout numerous posts, but I'll treat 762 as fairly representative). Secondarily, he has expressed that he is reading Saru, Expedience, and pitoli as Town (1016).

I'll look at the RyanK case first. The essence of this case is theoretically sound; Mafia players would love to be able to play as RyanK is (no contiguous thought process, no meaningful effort to actually solve the game beyond single post quotes at a time) if they could do so without being lynched. This bothers me as well, which is why I've been trying to push RyanK away from the current style in favor of one that offers more comprehensive reads that can be analyzed for motivation in greater depth. My read is still that the specific single-post quotes and things that RyanK seems to feel indicate alignment are more likely to come from Town, but it is a feature of that style that my read will be unable to progress on RyanK while it lasts, and it's not implausible to me that a Town player would find that sufficient cause to vote for RyanK--particularly after prompting RyanK for more substantive reads multiple times without success, as gameplay506 has done (736, 770, 780, 1050).
If gameplay506 is Mafia, this line of attack would most resemble a Mafia player targeting a Town player playing weakly, such that I would not expect RyanK and gameplay506 to both be Mafia.

The case on rb is not one that moves me. Many items involve associations between RyanK and rb. I feel that the awkward reactions by RyanK to rb early in the game (51, 60) that are cited are far more plausible if RyanK is Mafia and rb is Town than if they are both Mafia (RyanK seems eager to flatter rb, which doesn't seem an obvious interaction between Mafia players). Another item is that rb is taking things out of context or applying ideas inconsistently (claiming to be a likely N1 kill but wanting to explain things D2, reading me as Town now despite having a negative reaction to my first vote). I don't find these items very persuasive, and certainly not persuasive enough to override my reasons for reading rb as Town (initially this was for the way that rb helped move the game out of RVS, but I think that stronger evidence would be the way that rb shows evidence of reading the game over again starting in 659 with some read progression). While I don't agree with the case on rb, I don't feel that anything about it makes gameplay506 likely to be Mafia; it is certainly plausible to me that a Town player, particularly one focused on RyanK, would see rb reading RyanK as Town and gameplay506 as Mafia as a sign of a chainsaw defense.

As a last note, the Town reads are not greatly detailed but they are mostly consistent. I agree that pitoli is showing evidence of trying to read players, and that Naomi-Tan (now Expedience) seemed to exhibit a Town mindset when actually dealing with the game (and that opening post was NAI). The read on Saru wasn't detailed, so I'll ask about it in a separate post.

Overall, both of the major cases are unpersuasive but do not show any clear evidence that gameplay506 is not trying to read other players. They could easily come from a Town player, but do not seem particularly difficult for a Mafia player to feign. I've no objection to the reads on pitoli and Expedience. Barring something terrible in the Saru read, gameplay506 remains a Null read to me.

[Dierfire]

@gameplay506

You said that you were reading Saru as Town (1016). Why?

[pitoli]

@Mod: I'm voting in your VC. Please check again. I haven't been voting Ryan for a long time now.

Fixed. >.<

[pitoli]

*voting twice in your VC

[Dierfire]

Now for Chuck and Glitch:

It looks as though Glitch is promising content soon.

No, I can't. I told you I will do that tonight.

I'd

like

to wait for that to materialize and then go for a more comprehensive read. If nothing has appeared by tomorrow then I'll work with what we have.

The bulk of the Chuck ISO is that Expedience (formerly Naomi-Tan) is Mafia. I believe that I've already stated why I don't believe so and why I'm reading that slot as Town instead. I've no objection to Chuck reading rb as Town (951). I'd like to hear the reasoning for reading gameplay506 as Town, and I'll be watching for an interpretation of Saru's posting since that seems to be a recent line of questioning.

[Dierfire]

@Chuck

You are reading gameplay506 as Town (945). Why?

[Glitch]

Reads:

Cass - Genuine scum hunting, I like the overall vibe I get when I read her posts. Townreading.

Chuck - He’s been really set on lynching Expedience since 947 because of Expedience trying to lynch lurkers and assassinating his character (in Chuck’s words). In response to Chuck’s question in 1041, and because I’m going through and ISO’ing everyone at the moment, something else to point out:

Spoiler: quotes

I'm not very satisfied by her quoting from her initial post, no. It still feels like she's setting up a get-out-of-jail-free card to escape suspicion if she does some anti-town things.

This post is correct, and golden009 feels town as well, not just from this post but from multiple others before this.

From multiple others before this? Here are all his posts before 151:

hi

just woke up

am looking through posts

for now VOTE: Naomi-tan because that opening post feels scummy

also tfw the two oldest accounts in this game have zero finished games combined

...
Speaking of LAMIST; the setup tells us that scum have day talk if you missed it, so please bare that in mind over the game.

Naomi-Tan, how did you know scum has day talk?

Not sure if serious, but Miscellaneous rule 6.

So are we at 5 Gameplay votes?

I don't like the entrance from golden009 in 84, as he fails to comment on the wagon, which to me appears to be the most important feature of the game thus far.

My opinion on the wagon is that it's reasonable, but I'm waiting for Gameplay to reply to vote (and put it at L-1 at this point).

In the meantime, I'd like to see Naomi-Tan respond to this:

@Naomi - how am I supposed to interpret the fact that you'rre pre-announcing that you pre-announced this thing last game? I don't think LAMIST is a scumtell (it's NAI) and I find it weird that you'd be so on edge about this. Again conveniently explained that you're like this as both town AND scum but that's what scum would say too.

What's the reason you told us this?

Mixed feelings. I can understand why town-Naomi would do it (if town-Naomi behaves like she said she does in her intro post), but if you look at it without knowing about earlier games, it's very meh.

I'm not very satisfied by her quoting from her initial post, no. It still feels like she's setting up a get-out-of-jail-free card to escape suspicion if she does some anti-town things.

Chuck why does golden feel town with 7 fluff posts that don’t have much meat to them?

This seems odd to me. It could be just normal Day 1 vibes without too much reason with such little to go on. Or it could be a lack of logical argumentation for favoring golden. Why?

Additionally, per 947, why should we just trust you on this?

Dierfire - seems town enough to me to not be on the radar at the moment. His posts throughout the entire thread are consistent and seem to be genuine, at least from what I’ve looked at.

Gameplay - Pretty stuck up and gets on my nerves. He’s stuck to Ryan from early in the game and really lobbied against him the whole time. I don’t really get why he’s so stuck and set on getting him lynched, however, it seems like it’s too stupid of a move to stay so hard-core against Ryan if he’s scum because scum would know better than to draw that much attention, right? I’m not really scum reading him just because he would be too stupid to be scum this way and I feel like he would play smarter.

Martha - Her whole episode of being down with her own lynch is just weird to me. Why would town be happy about themselves getting lynched? It doesn’t help anything unless their death is one of the notoriously awful info lynches. (-_-) And apparently since it’s so well known that that’s only something a shit player would do, I don’t see how the whole excitement over getting lynched could be townish.

Then there’s the fact that she repeatedly reiterates how town she is and throws in a soft claim. I just don’t like it. Plus, she’s on the Ryan wagon which I think even though there’s 5 votes on it right now I get the feeling it’s over because we’ve gotten what we need out of it and I think there’s enough people satisfied with his reaction that we won’t reach a lynch.

Before putting her as a scum read, one note. She points out in 716:

Golden seems unhelpful, btw. There's something fishy about him. Look at his iso then judge. And you're vote of me is unreasonable. It's not like I don't want you to vote for me, But the looks of it is just pure sheeping and opportunistic. You're saying you're tempted to vote for me, Why? It's because I've been suspected right? I am suspected, thus, you get the opportunity to vote for me.

So I went and ISO’s golden and he

has

been pretty useless. But that’s something that’s easy to point out and target — and she sure enough voted for him in 716 too. Just seems like cheap scum hunting.

Therefore, I’m shifting to VOTE: Martha for the time being. Thoughts on what I brought up?

Saru - is null to me, he has 7 posts and they’re all the same with a large amount of contribution that seems pro-town. Scum or town can do that.

pitoli - I’ve got a strong town read from the beginning on this one and I still get the same vibe

RyanK - Arguments have been made on why he’s totally town which I see the accuracy in, and the my goals in joining the wagon are accomplished. Unvoted.

BBT and Golden seems utterly useless so far.

rb has the most posts of anyone and I want to ISO him but I don’t have time right now. Will do soon hopefully.

[Glitch]

(although Glitch appears not to have responded to my 894, which is annoying)

My bad man, I missed it. If I'm understanding correctly then the answer is that Ryan's playstyle being full of spam and seeming like a troll, his overall attitude, etc. were my problem with him, not the fact that he was jumpy with his votes. Jumping votes around is helpful if you're applying pressure and seeing how others will react to your vote. Hope that helps.

In other news:

Glitch is terrible but he's not my top scumread

Glitch is like naomi imo - shit but in a town way.

Also I forgot Glitch- yes glitch is bad and kidna scummy and his recent posts are just that but at the same time he seems so damn genuine.

ffs someone tell me why I am so bad, I've asked at least two or three times.

[Saru]

Saru all your posts feel carefully calculated.

What are your (short and sweet) thoughts on Expedience/Naomi, Martha Zolanski, and RyanK?

Actually, Saru, make that gameplay and BlueBloodedToffee as well.

How do my posts feel "carefully calculated?"

Expedience - Tries to find town before trying to find scum which is good. Helps with PoE and town hunting is a thing. Also thought predecessor was town, so that helps. Don't like recent posts however with the whole "absolute" reads on people like Ryan. The way she calls Ryan a mislynch feels like she's too sure of herself. Difference between being confident and being absolute. Absoluteness is not really the hallmark of a mafia game, at-least not before a flip. Strong town read.

Martha - Was hard to read. Still is. Some of her votes seem OMGUS near the start but feels like she's trying to put in authentic effort towards reading people in her more recent posts, and I liked the effort put into analyzing the play of rb/Ryan. Don't know what to make of the soft-claim, but it felt genuine. Very slight town lean.

Ryan - Mostly talked about in 884. Wouldn't cry over a lynch on him because he's shown no real sign of improvement from what was discussed, but I'm hoping he'll step up sooner than later to help me form a more coherent read on him besides just WIFOM reasoning. Null.

gameplay - Almost all of his posts focus on either Ryan or rb. Can't read him on anything else. Don't see the point in this incessant tunnel if he's town, but also don't see what he achieves as scum. Again, not a fan of the "absolute" style reads. His frustration towards Ryan is understandable and does feel genuine. Still need more posts from him that don't include either Ryan or rb. Null until more diverse content can be parsed from.

BBT - Liked the entrance, but did 0 after that. Looks like he might end up being a replace out so I have literally no opinion on him at this point.

@Saru

You asked me in 930 why I didn't feel a need to "go into an analytical read" before I placed my vote on gameplay506. I still feel as though we're not having the same conversation here. My vote in 131 was the best vote that I felt that I could make at the time. If I thought that there were more things to analyze that would provide a better vote, then I would have analyzed them and made a better vote!
Put another way: if you think that the posts up through 130 are such a fertile ground for analysis, then tell me what I'm missing. If you agree with me that those first 130 posts are not tremendously informative, then I don't understand your problem with my vote.

My point is: why no analysis on gameplay specifically before the vote? Your reasoning was just "X is town therefore Y is more likely to be scum" which doesn't come off as analyzing but just providing some convoluted statistical reasoning. I think the first 130 posts were more than informative and were more than fertile ground for analysis(which again, seems to be your strong point), at-least enough for you to either give a more compelling reason to vote or to hold off from voting altogether. Do you usually find yourself analyzing situations before a starter vote or is this a misread on your style of play? I'm mostly drawing from my own experience with you, so more insight into your thought process in that regard would be helpful.

@pitoli: Do you feel owning up to sheeping makes it any better than the sheeping you accuse Martha of? What part of Martha's explanation for her sheep doesn't feel logical? Why is yours any better?

@rb: Why does Ryan have to be a scum lord to be able to pull off reverse psychology? Essentially, why does he have to be pro scum to do anything if he can just follow orders in day-talk?

[Saru]

@MOD: My vote on Dierfire is nowhere to be found in the past two VCs.

Fixed. I've figured out the source of the repeated mistakes in the past few VCs - I got a corrupted VC and I've been copying it, allowing the mistakes to add up. I'm going to do a fresh count to avoid this from happening again.

[Martha Zolanski]

I Iso-ed rb and this is what I came up.

Rb and Gameplay war is something that we need to talk about. I agree with whom ever says that their argument is childish. Rb's reasoning of gameplay is somewhat I don't really understand. It's just because rb is suspecting gameplay because of their useless argument which is a no for me. I may have missed the point, But rb voting for gameplay has no logical explanation or an accurate reason.

And Pitoli just sheeped rb which make things worse.

And now, Rb is voting glitch instead of Gameplay. I know, We know that his top of scum read is Gameplay but why not vote for him? It's because people don't sheep him and follow him. You know why, Rb? It's because your reasoning are just non sense like I stated before.

Rb is also defending Ryan which I kinda agree with.

VOTE: Rb

I am definitely agreeing with Gameplay and what he says about you. Maybe because I am null town reading him than you. And 1047

I also don't see why rb is being an universal townread. I mean he speaks a lot and he has confidence but actually anything besided that? His arguments suck, his reads suck and he has been practically leading this town by the nose.
So pls @pitoli or smb that I like do tell me why rb is so town

This explains a lot. But I am kinda not agreeing with what Gameplay is saying about Ryan. Ryan is just a useless player we don't need to lynch this day.

Chuck:
Why are you so eager for me to vote Expedience? I know I may have scum reading him but I'm still figuring out things. No need to rush things and I made my vote.
10 scum points to Chuck-le-puff for wanting me to vote Expedience.

Expedience:
I know you're town reading me which makes me happy about it but I still don't know if you are just wanting me to town read you.

[Martha Zolanski]

If I am about to be wagoned again, Please consider that I may act unhelpful, suspicious and weird because no one wants to get suspected right? Because If I am going to be lynched and being wagoned, then what's the use of my explanations if I'm just gonna be lynched? So please, before you vote for me, Try to ask me questions and I'll do what you want to do to make you town read me instead of voting me first.

I know sometimes I am keeping my vote even when I am town reading the person. It's just some times, I just am not used to unvoting. And I change my vote when I have info about the person I want to vote.

[Martha Zolanski]

MOD - V/LA until September 7 (Wednesday) because I have an exam this week. I need to focus.

[RyanK]

...

Agreed.

VOTE: Gameplay

Shall we wait for him to defend himself?

Why?
...

Why did you question her questioning of this?

I don't intend to look into more posts tonight unless someone wants me to comment on something specifically.
I came here to prove why there are basically 0 arguments on mescum and who is scum. I think I did that.

Some notes from my skimming over the game:
I like Martha's questioning.
Naomi seems genuinely confused so I like her as well.
I have pitoli in my leaning town list too.

What is it about Martha's questioning you like?
Why do you have pitoli in your leaning town list?
VOTE: gameplay506

What is the problem about answering these questions I presented you? If there is none, please answer the questions. If there are, please state the problems.

[gameplay506]

...

Agreed.

VOTE: Gameplay

Shall we wait for him to defend himself?

Why?
...

Why did you question her questioning of this?

I don't intend to look into more posts tonight unless someone wants me to comment on something specifically.
I came here to prove why there are basically 0 arguments on mescum and who is scum. I think I did that.

Some notes from my skimming over the game:
I like Martha's questioning.
Naomi seems genuinely confused so I like her as well.
I have pitoli in my leaning town list too.

What is it about Martha's questioning you like?
Why do you have pitoli in your leaning town list?
VOTE: gameplay506

What is the problem about answering these questions I presented you? If there is none, please answer the questions. If there are, please state the problems.

I aksed my questions way before you did yours and you still havent replied to mine. Unless you do it I wont reply to this.

[RyanK]

...

Agreed.

VOTE: Gameplay

Shall we wait for him to defend himself?

Why?
...

Why did you question her questioning of this?

I don't intend to look into more posts tonight unless someone wants me to comment on something specifically.
I came here to prove why there are basically 0 arguments on mescum and who is scum. I think I did that.

Some notes from my skimming over the game:
I like Martha's questioning.
Naomi seems genuinely confused so I like her as well.
I have pitoli in my leaning town list too.

What is it about Martha's questioning you like?
Why do you have pitoli in your leaning town list?
VOTE: gameplay506

What is the problem about answering these questions I presented you? If there is none, please answer the questions. If there are, please state the problems.

I aksed my questions way before you did yours and you still havent replied to mine. Unless you do it I wont reply to this.

I would consider my previous post a reply to yours for a substantial read.

[RyanK]

EBWOP: I would consider my previous post a reply to yours for an argumented read.

[rb]

Is there a case in there somewhere Martha or are you just going the gameplay route of, "rb is weird/salty/insert vague term here"?

One of Martha or gameplay is scum.

Also lol @ not understanding why I'd vote glitch. Why would I bother vanity voting someone on Day 1?

[rb]

Because gameplay hasn't actually addressed arguments, he just says that I'm dumb/bad/nonsense without explaining why, like you are now. What's nonsense about scumreading gameplay?

He doesn't really do anything but continuously tunnel on Ryan unless someone interacts with him directly. He's got the fakest looking activity in the game and is totally full of shit with his butthurt/VI/egotistical accusations.

[rb]

But hey if you want to lynch me I'll even self-vote on the condition that you lynch gameplay tomorrow. Gonna get NK'd regardless so may as well do a 1for1 trade on scum.r

[rb]

Also, w.r.t. your 262 I think Naomi was much worse than Ryan. His looked more believed than hers. I'd rather lynch Expedience. What are your thoughts there?

How would he look more town when he basically dumbtold and said that he didn't even know how many scum there were
Like lol

Dumbtell =/= scumtell, I'd think you'd know that.

Why have you been pushing him so hard but not the Naomi/Expedience slot?

Also that question about the MZ wagon was not rhetorical.

Um chuck dumbtell is exacrly a scumtell
Its basically somebody acting dumb on purpose to be viewed more towny
And I already said why I am not pushing Naomi a couple.of.times. She is town.
Wtf is wrong with you.people why should I be pushing people who I townread and switch my reads every couple.of.pages, is this the new meta or something

Lmao this has to be a joke.

I've seen dumbtells about a dozen times and every single one was town. Scum can do it to play dumb, but would a player in their 2nd game think to do it? Doubt it.

This is why gameplay is scum. He KNOWS that a dumbtell isn't a scumtell. I know he knows this because gameplay is not a total fucking idiot, yet he continuously tunnels on the easiest player in the game to ever tunnel for things that aren't even scumtells.

Gameplay is scum, Ryan is town.

[rb]

I'm only voting Gameplay or Glitch today. By far the best lynches in the game.