Mission 2a - The Fire and Brimstone Job

[JaeReed]

I have my doubts about ABR and the message thingi as well and I don't like the way my questions got ignored becuase I wasn't around before the night end. I want to sort my asteral fellows as well PV seems really helpful and freindly and generally ok in that private topic but out of it he didn't do so much.

With regards to this... Klingon is sticking to a townread because ABR said he sent a message to Drixx and she thought he wouldn't send a message to him if he was going to kill him. There's no guarantee that the message was actually intended for Drixx though, as you pointed out. Or at least I don't think Klingon confirmed that it was mod confirmed that the message wasn't intended for her. I find it really odd that she could get someone else's message too.

That's already a really iffy reason to townread someone, but then ABR returns the townread seemingly based off Klingon claiming to have received his message and confirming it with the phrases they had, which I found really weird?

[JaeReed]

I beleive all the game roles started naturally and litterally every role can be town or scum and there is no witght in claims by themselves.

Alignments were attached to the roles in drafting, not to the players I think.

-im tired of the karnos discussion as thats a horse beaten to death already. We'll see about that tomorrow, but i actually believe in mathblade being town. House is just tunneling for some reason.

Drixx joined matrix and karnos was aware since he can read pt's
Although it makes little sense to let vigs guess if they can see who is in the pt's...

Math is town regardless of whether Karnos flips I think. House, ABR, and Klingon pushing Math makes it more likely there's one scum at least in that group. Maybe two.
That very last bit about vigs being able to read PTs and see who is in there is kinda correct. Why would you have it be specifically so that you have to specify which PT it takes place in if you're not going to leave them to guess who is still in the PTs? Which makes Karnos' claim to have killed Drixx kinda sus.

- I think math vig shot is not proving anything about mathblade being town. looking at her closely she was on SC pushers who changed direction toward MC right after the unexplained vig eventhough she must know that is not making MC scum by itself. I expect more deducting from her. plus she suggested karnoos as secondary option but was against it a bit (the impact I got from jaread explanations) - I think she suggested hi but wanted the other suggestion copped even though she was calling karnoos scum on day 1 but never pushed him. Plus she delayed a confirmed scum lynch with a baseless inventor vig(?) which is when the outed scum claimed vig for no reason to make us think the scum vig will die with him (? or was it real).

I can see a clear attempt for gaining tones of town cred for a vig shot which is might just be scum suicide at this point cuase Karnoos is a publickly confirmed scum. plus that "not lynch , let u vig him" thing allows karnoos to use his action tonight which if he is really the spy one , he can use his abilities to determine asteral members current position to use another on target vig shot (which I made sure this will get confirmed tomorrow if happens with a plan explained in my message which I will send to one of you two)

- MC was a day vig of some kind and scum posses two killing abilities. thats all we saw so far so I'm going to assume its the case.(as I said I know there are multiple kills each night according to the wording of my role pm) so I don't beleive it was one shot matrix vig only. there must be something against asteral and maybe even the people in neither.

Math wasn't pushing for a karnos vig though, they wanted karnos lynched because he's confscum. It was the rest of us that urged Math to use the vig on karnos because we wanted to be sure with the flip.

As far as Karnos' vig claim it seems most likely that he's the "eyes" for scum and someone else in the team is the vig. So there'll probably be another 2 kills from scum at night I think? Then Math's kill if it goes through.

There was 0 reason for karnoos to claim the vig shot considering they have day chat as well

This is a plan obviously and a wifom going on

This is what I'm thinking about that, yeah.

The vig was done because karnos could jailbreak (we still dont know how it works) so we just decided that mathblade should ue the gun tonight, sinc it completely kills karnos AND we get a flip.

is this karnoos claim as well?

so during day 2 he claimed : matrix vig , pt spies jailbreaker

this won't add up I'm sure there is a reason and a plan for him.

another possibility : he is the asteral vig as well and he wanted to live till tonight to use that vig shot as well.

Nah karnos didn't claim to be able to escape, but we don't know if scum do have the ability to get one of their buddies out of jail so we went with the vig.

[JaeReed]

actually Jaread confirm that you didn't join any regions for the night. this way I will guarantee that you will live tonight . assuming inter is town we might prevent the night kill cuase your a logical choice for them.

I didn't join any regions.

If i were scum i wouldnt kill jaereed because hes a key flip
His death would change a lot of reads imo (most likely on math-abr-worldz)
I would go for low info flips like klingon, house, worldz to some extent

And since yume very obviously softed doc twice or so, i wonder why you are still alive.

How would my death change reads on Math, ABR, Worldz?
And yeah I thought Math was talking about Yume in the first mission when she said someone softed. Guess not though, was just a really off theory about me and FB.

if PV is town he is in danger of asteral kill as well. house push on math means they will keep both math and house (and prob abr alive) if all three are town. I have no read on house and a little bit scum read on vedith. I didn't like his activity on day 1 , his trolling and the way he reacted to MC vig.

Your thoughts on Vedith line up almost completely with what Math thought about him N1. Why do you think PV will be vigged if scum can vig in astral? I feel like they might see him as mislynchable.

I say it here because i trust you and jae
I trust math as well
Pv and abr but less

I dont trust house
I dont trust klingon
And i DEFINITELY dont trust worldz

I don't trust Worldz because he's refused to do anything but whine the whole game and try to push his "townslip", which could just be bad scum. That said, karnos would have to be bussing before he even knew he was being copped, which doesn't fit for me.

they will probably sabotage an adventure and kill in the other so I want to wait till I see how stuff will go through

Looks like ours wasn't sabotaged. If your theory is right we're kinda screwed.

I think pv and abr are both town and they will be kept alive if they are
I think house could be scum but mathblade is a possible mislynch in the near future so he will likely live if hes town as well
If pv/mathblade/jaereed/you are scum, which i doubt, i wont die either because ive been pretty much been hard defending them

Klingon is a no info kill
Worldz is mislynchable if hes town, and if abr is scum hes just a pawn that can be kept alive

You are a doc and dangerous for scum so you are the most viable kill for acum again

I think PV will be kept alive because he's mislynchable.
ABR will be kept alive because he's tunneling on Math, but I was careful to try to keep my reads away from the main thread since I started thinking he might be scum for it. So there's hopefully a small chance the kill goes to him for being widely townread.
Math will be kept alive I think yeah, because as you said, mislynchable. House is probably scum, which makes ABR town because I don't think they'd both push Math like that as a team.
You might be the nightkill because you looked really town D2 and I think you've been doing a good job at identifying town and trying to keep them from being lynched. I'd imagine that would be frustrating for scum.
Klingon is mislynchable if town so I don't think she'll be killed even for a no info kill.
Point on Worldz & also FA I agree with.

I'm not dying tonight. Firstly I'm too valuable to scum kept alive. Secondly math will be on me tonight.

To expand on this: I don't know for sure that Math will be jailkeeping me but I'd say it's a safe bet considering I'm their strongest townread and they might be thinking I'm the most likely nightkill target tonight again.

[JaeReed]

Do you think scum can sabotage a mission they are not on?
I think that both of you are town and we passed the first part already

I doubt this mission will be messed with, but we'll see.

I honestly don't think scum can sabotage a mission they're not on, but the 2nd party N1 said their mission was sabotaged and they didn't think scum needed to be on the run to sabotage it.

but ehh I see. its reasonable to assume they needed to be on the mission for sabotaging.

D&D was on that mission hmmm

why people has town reads on D&D?

I was making an iso table of events which is halfway complete , I cant see any alignemnet indicative anything from D&D

The AtE from cakez plus how reasonable both heads were with regards to karnos. There's a possibility for me to be reading them wrong.

Spoiler: buncha quotes

I don't like the way people changed their targets in 180 oposite direction there.

I don't know SC alignment but I think there is obvious scum in the sudden MC pushers.

Possibly yes

I think there was scum on both
Not neccesarily the same scum

think about it

SC was already dead , what was easier than to blame MC and get the killer killed as well knowing their flip will remain secret. the reasoning for stop the wagon on SC were all BS , and scumreading a day vig for not annoucing the shot before doing it seems easy and opportunistic

Karnos , mathblade and D&D voted SC and beside D&D both stoppoed it so sudden so soon after joining there. (math never voted or just casted doubt? I need to recheck this)

mathblade was on of the people who voted MC right after the vig shot in the wave of angry blood thirsty voters

I'll reread the SC/McMenno thing with this in mind.

I dont know...
There is so much that makes me believe math is town

There is less that makes me believe d&d is

So far there is more that makes him town than scum imo.

This is where I'm at, though.

KC needs to die though , lurking is her scum meta

and pushing making no sense directions. it might seem innocent but her fangs bite

Agreed with this.

I assume math cleared herself to jaread last night so I want to trust jaread on reading her.

can you two please tell me your top three desire for protection tonight?

You now know everything that happened last night. Thoughts on Math now?
Honestly I think scum will shoot scout or you. I assume you can't protect yourself so:

Scout
PV
D&D
maybe? I don't think scum will shoot me. (If I die tonight I'm gonna look really stupid post-game for this)

We can all claim if you want.

I think I've revealed everything about my role. I just have the ring that I gave to Math and the jail escape.

oh btw pv was not lieing about the abr leaving time issues. his "I guessed flavor will be like that" seems really scummy. why he didn't tell anyone else about his flavor guess.

Agreed on it being potentially scummy. The weak reasoning suggests he knew what happened to Drixx before Karnos claimed it.

[JaeReed]

actually this means your role is not negative utility AT ALL. its the thing that might release the game from the current situation ; if you die we loose our chance for triggering it.

It's negative utility because we lose a lynch on scum in order to trigger it imo.

I agreed , I guess that vig might be able to shoot in jail as well. (regional limited)

maybe the different regions vigs are in different people hands.

Scum can night kill in jail, I think?

[JaeReed]

@Jaread what do you think? what is the similarities and differences between this operation and the one you did night 1?

Flavor is always good If you're asking about the options thing that's pretty standard to get two options, yeah. Seems to have both the clever way of doing it or the brute force way? We did a lot of charming, analyzing type stuff N1 and then escaped using magic.

[JaeReed]

We cant shut down kills because mathblade vigging karnos

I hope scum doesnt have day chat tbh, that gives them a lot of power

I think they might based on the miscellaneous thing that FA pointed out.

We could shut down all blocking abilities

no removing blockings is good

then mathblade will have no excuse tomorrow

if her vig failed dont tell announce this first , let her claim whatever she wanna and investigate the other adventure first.

This is somewhat a good idea though I think. Even with Math's jailkeeping thing. I have a theory about that anyways. I was thinking there's a possibility no one gave Math a gun, and that was them soft claiming another ability of theirs? If that's the case then the jailkeep wouldn't be used tonight. But that's just a theory I have.

We need protection
Oh and jae, if we choose to block blocking, send mathblade a message. They shouldnt be assuming they found scum if they jailed someone and a kill didnt go through

I dont think im aware of other roles to send it to, but i doubt we have a jk and a rb

Yeah I don't think both exist. If we end up ruling out blocking then we need to go with FA's thing if karnos doesn't flip. Which means Math can't know that roleblocking has been blocked. I suppose saying something was done specifically about jailkeepers last night to them might work?

But you aren't, grovyle didn't flip mason.

Yeah Math was wrong in the theory there.

So
Blocking blocking:
+ scum cant block math kill or other protown abilities
- math cant jailkeep so we effectively lose 2 way protection
Blocking redirection:
+its likely only scum would have redirector, so we are only likely blocking scum
- the odds of there being a redirector are rather low in comparation to roleblocker


For me either is okay
I think the doc part of jk being blocked is rather negative
But do we want to possibly waste this ability?

Ok so what I'm thinking are roles that could affect the karnos vig:
Doctor
Bulletproof
Bodyguard
Redirector
Roleblocker
Jailkeeper

Anything else? I think shutting down roleblockers or redirectors tonight are ok choices.
We can rule out Jailkeeper as something that will mess with Math's shot. Also can rule out Doctor as that is FA. Which leaves BP, Bodyguard, Redirector, Roleblocker? Bodyguard would be terrible to be used on confscum so I don't think even if they have one they'd use it here, because it just guarantees an extra scum loss. So I think it's between bulletproof, redirector, roleblocker. I don't think bulletproof would be something karnos would be given the rest of his abilities he's claimed so far (being the bounty, seeing all PTs, and possibly the 1 shot matrix vig which is probably a lie). So yeah, redirector or roleblocker.

If you're right in that a scum!Math here would shoot elsewhere, the claim would be redirected. If scum have either a redirector or roleblocker and this is town!Math then they're gonna use it on them to mess with the shot for sure. Roleblocker I think is less likely to exist in a setup with a jailkeeper but then we're playing "outguess the mod" so idunno.

In your place I'd probably flip a coin. Shutting down the redirector possibility is good, but if we're wrong in the spec that rb wouldn't exist with jk then we miss out on karnos' flip. At least shutting down redirector would make it guaranteed that the shot is going to karnos so there's less chance of town dying unless Math is scum?

[JaeReed]

....Sorry. I've caught up and said all I wanted to say now >.<

[Frozen Angel]

will read everything after breakfast

[inspectorscout]

Lmao nice walling but yeah
Flipping a coin is meh, i want to male sure i do the right thing

Identifying and protecting town was extremely frustrating, if i wasnt in a hydra with froot i had replaced out. I cant stand people just pushing random reads without telling anyone why. Its rude, bad and sometimes even scummy. AND PEOPLE EVEN SHEEP ABR


Was i lynchbait because i wasnt emotional enough D1? Wow.
Thing about me is that i always get emotional when im angry, and thats when im pushed for shit reasoning or when other people do stupid things and refuse to change their behaviour. I think i did pretty much okay without that much emotion in hunger games...
And i really didnt trust everyone townreading grovyle.


If you flip as town people will likely townread math more
But when that happens abr gets a backlash because of his behaviour towards math
And worldz' only 'trump card' is abr. Abr is the only reason worldz is alive.
If you flip scum (i dont think you will but whatever)
ABR gains a lot of credit on being right
Worldz' goes with that
And mathblade will get a closer look due to your interactions


My role is not important so ill just claim
I am a voyeur, which is often used as a scum role, which is why i could agree with FA's setupspec
N1 i targeted worldz because i didnt trust him but he only got the bounty
But i realized its a stupid idea to target people you dont trust so i think ill target mathblade to see if anyone messes with their shot

[Frozen Angel]

A question : people got their alignments after the drafting phase or before that?

[Frozen Angel]

@mod will we keep access to this thread for reading this later on (after the night is over) ? cause I like to have this data if I lived of course

Just reading not talking obviously

[Frozen Angel]

RR I love you man

"That logic is flawed. Just because no more jailbreaks are possible after two people escape doesn't mean only two people total have the ability to escape. It's more likely that there are more than two because otherwise lynches won't reveal flips until really late. It might be a strong move to lynch you because your ability allows only you to escape but I don't want to lynch someone I don't think is scum. How would you sort Menno/SC? I disagree that they're probably not the same alignment. It's improbable they're both scum, possible 1 scum and 1 town, but also possible both town. If we ignore Menno's slip debacle. One shooting the other doesn't tell us much other than probably not both scum."

exactly where I am about them and your jail thingi

[Frozen Angel]

All the thing setup is saying is when 2 people scace the rest will die this strongly suggests there are more people with jailbreaking abilities or there are events which let a jailbreak. which makes your role all possitive utility but hard to use now that MC is dead.

"Math you're the only one I'm unsure of here. Your play seems plausible as either alignment. Jae was nulltown but his stuff in here pushed him up to actual town." this was also what I was thinking about Math in first iso/fact review and the initial source of my doubts. reading yet ...

[inspectorscout]

RR did well imo
But obviously my 2 top townreads - koggz and RR - had to die
Koggz got modkilled, do you know how awful it is to lose your top townread because of a modkill?

[Frozen Angel]

"Strongest townread I have is Grovyle." can you confirm if this was mathblade perspective at the end of day 1 as well (in game?) or should I check that as well ... :~

why your read on scout changed from scummy to town? I am trying to follow your thought process , I'm not discussing my own reads atm.

[Frozen Angel]

I have my doubts about ABR and the message thingi as well and I don't like the way my questions got ignored becuase I wasn't around before the night end. I want to sort my asteral fellows as well PV seems really helpful and freindly and generally ok in that private topic but out of it he didn't do so much.

With regards to this... Klingon is sticking to a townread because ABR said he sent a message to Drixx and she thought he wouldn't send a message to him if he was going to kill him. There's no guarantee that the message was actually intended for Drixx though, as you pointed out. Or at least I don't think Klingon confirmed that it was mod confirmed that the message wasn't intended for her. I find it really odd that she could get someone else's message too.

That's already a really iffy reason to townread someone, but then ABR returns the townread seemingly based off Klingon claiming to have received his message and confirming it with the phrases they had, which I found really weird?

I asked some questions before the night start which klingon nor abr answered. If I died please continue my thought process. If we had a way to communicate with drixx we could confirm this out but its not working out that way

Abr messaging Drixx if ABR is scum can only be because they have the ability which copied the message to klingon which makes no sense cuase then they knew their killing drixx and he won't be able to confirm that message anyway. this means we have three objects here :

Object A : Klingonsent : who claims her role has nothing to do with the message but she recived it anyway
Object B : the one who is responsible for thr message to be copied
Object C : ABR : who is the message sender.

so its eaither A lieing and klingon is spy who can read messages (used that to make her look good to ABR) or some shit like that
or C is lieing and ABR sent that message to klingon in first place for making absoloute wifom and to look townish.
or both are telling the truth and B is conftown for not using their ability to gain the messages for themselves (or an scumbuddy)

I don't beleive B exists myself cuase then B is a message redirector (who change all the sent messages to someone to another) then klingon should have recived my slot message to drixx as well which she never mentioned.

so obvious and first geture of this looks like there is a scum in KC / ABR

my slot message to Drixx has a role claim but no signature. I will send a copy of that to the one who I'm sending my own message tonight. push kc enough to claim if she recived any other messages that night or last night and get this matter resolved even if I wasn't alive anymore.

[Frozen Angel]

That very last bit about vigs being able to read PTs and see who is in there is kinda correct. Why would you have it be specifically so that you have to specify which PT it takes place in if you're not going to leave them to guess who is still in the PTs? Which makes Karnos' claim to have killed Drixx kinda sus.

I can't answer about this unless If I full claim which I prefer to not do that, if I died tonight with that and the information I gathered in my message you can understand my pov here. the way my role pm is worded seems it wants to hint on the killing abilities restrictions becuase a part of my role is mod confirmed useless by its own.

[Frozen Angel]

I can't heal scout unless he is already out of matrix pt before the night starts. so thats pretty much of the table.

[Frozen Angel]

Math wasn't pushing for a karnos vig though, they wanted karnos lynched because he's confscum. It was the rest of us that urged Math to use the vig on karnos because we wanted to be sure with the flip.

As far as Karnos' vig claim it seems most likely that he's the "eyes" for scum and someone else in the team is the vig. So there'll probably be another 2 kills from scum at night I think? Then Math's kill if it goes through.

yep I expect 3 night kills (me among them)

its eaither this or the vise versa (he is the vig and someone else is the eyes).

I'm sure the extra kill was limited on matrix region. thats why I believe tonights extra will be on asteral. anyway if 3 kills happen math is pretty much conftown

so eaither pv + karnos + a night kill or me + karnos + a night kill or 2 kills.

if neither me or pv dies and there were still 2 scum kills + math ; math is conftown scum probably has no asteral or matrix vig anymore so the pts must be safe from killings (if a spy flips then it will be safe from that as well) and they can be used for making blocks coordinating adventures and stuff

[Frozen Angel]

Scum can night kill in jail, I think?

jail is not dead thread so there must be stuff letting players target in there as well. I don't know if a normal night kill is one of them though.

[inspectorscout]

I can't heal scout unless he is already out of matrix pt before the night starts. so thats pretty much of the table.

Doesn't matter, if I die, you have my reads and general ideas.
I read abr as town though, and if he really is, scum might want to keep us alive because we keep disagreeing

URGH THIS GAME IS A MESS
i want flips

[Frozen Angel]

Flavor is always good If you're asking about the options thing that's pretty standard to get two options, yeah. Seems to have both the clever way of doing it or the brute force way? We did a lot of charming, analyzing type stuff N1 and then escaped using magic.

I like to know if we would get other prizes if we were choosing other options and doing this differently but that doesn't matter at all. we can assume its eaither way. I just like to know if scum could sabotage this after reciveing the prize or not

and the way the flavor is written is making me nervous. we disabled aztech's mass regional tracker poison. if that was really a thing in the game and we deactivated it this means scum really needed to sabotage that particular misson for enableing something or preventing disabling of some ability of them.

all this in mind this adventures might be more powerful than they seem.

[Frozen Angel]

This is somewhat a good idea though I think. Even with Math's jailkeeping thing. I have a theory about that anyways. I was thinking there's a possibility no one gave Math a gun, and that was them soft claiming another ability of theirs? If that's the case then the jailkeep wouldn't be used tonight. But that's just a theory I have.

Yeah I don't think both exist. If we end up ruling out blocking then we need to go with FA's thing if karnos doesn't flip. Which means Math can't know that roleblocking has been blocked. I suppose saying something was done specifically about jailkeepers last night to them might work?

if we are disbaling block we need to hide this till every other single detail claims. if anyone claimed to be blocked we can assume their flat out lieing. this also applies to mathblade. outing this info with messaging is stupid.

[inspectorscout]

This is somewhat a good idea though I think. Even with Math's jailkeeping thing. I have a theory about that anyways. I was thinking there's a possibility no one gave Math a gun, and that was them soft claiming another ability of theirs? If that's the case then the jailkeep wouldn't be used tonight. But that's just a theory I have.

Yeah I don't think both exist. If we end up ruling out blocking then we need to go with FA's thing if karnos doesn't flip. Which means Math can't know that roleblocking has been blocked. I suppose saying something was done specifically about jailkeepers last night to them might work?

if we are disbaling block we need to hide this till every other single detail claims. if anyone claimed to be blocked we can assume their flat out lieing. this also applies to mathblade. outing this info with messaging is stupid.

Probably...


But i think redirecting could be better
We have an extra heal which is rather important and useful, in a 12 player game 2 protectives are really strong
And if mathblade shoots someone else they cant lie about being redirected