Mini Normal 1825 - Game Over

[House]

Dier isn't a lurker - he posts enough to get noticed (usually in walls knowing people will mostly slip them).

I'll repeat this again - can anyone show me where Dier has done any scum hunting/made any attempts to push somebody? Instead of just explaining town reads.

PEdit - House, look at Dier's posts and see if he has done any of what I mentioned above.

Maybe you should stop slipping his walls. Information of note can usually be found at/near the end of them, anyway.

Dier is interacting with others, asking as well as answering questions. Just yesterday, he posted a list of scumspects (myself among them, sadly).

Do you think he's scum for not vomiting reads lists? For not playing the way you like to play? That kind of stuff strike a nerve with me BBT, because I am frequently run up when I'm town because I don't play to the stereotypical townie image.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, I don't think he is scum for that at all

I think he is scum for a lack of scum hunting, scum reads and pushes on who he believes is scum.

What has he done with that list of suspects? Where did these reads come from? Because it just looks like a PoE list to me (which is convenient because he won't have to explain scum reads).

[BlueBloodedToffee]

House; show me Dier scum hunting. Show me Dier pushing a single scum read.

[Saru]

Actually, Dier DID push a slot. Lo and behold, an empty slot. golden.

Oh, and here's the kicker, he unvotes and backs off as soon as that slot gets filled with a player he knows is hard to get lynched. His excuse is "golden is not scum from D1 actions" after saying "golden is scum from D1 actions."

[House]

Oh, and here's the kicker, he unvotes and backs off as soon as that slot gets filled with a player he knows is hard to get lynched. His excuse is "golden is not scum from D1 actions" after saying "golden is scum from D1 actions."

Quote?

[Saru]

I want to discuss things more with MathBlade, but I suspect that I will end up reading her as Town for reasons that I will discuss afterward.

"I want to talk with Mathblade, but eh, they're probably town." How does someone go from "this slot is so scummy they must be lynched regardless of a defense" to THAT?

You'd asked me whether I thought that my vote on golden009 was necessary answers to my questions from a replacement (MathBlade). No, my vote was not cast for the purpose of having MathBlade answer my questions to golden009 (in fact, I didn't have many specific questions for golden009--I was most interested in hearing updated opinions, which a replacement would tend to provide without prompting).

I also didn't need a response--from golden009 or MathBlade--to my accusations.

Again, this sounds like he's 100% that golden was going to flip scum. Don't accuse someone and then not expect or want an answer from them UNLESS you're 100% sure they're scum. But then he unvotes, so apparently he wasn't sure? lol. Bold is mine.

Here is my line of reasoning. Martha had hinted at having a role in 578, and the Mafia players were evidently aware of this (as they killed her N1). In 614 golden009 casts a vote for Martha (vote was on me before that). This is after the wagon on Martha largely dissolved, so why is golden009 moving his vote? He didn't have much of a chance of lynching Martha. He didn't need to move his vote to have it parked on someone who wouldn't have been lynched (the existing vote on me would have fulfilled that purpose). He didn't really need to worry that a vote on me would attract a tremendous amount of suspicion. Therefore, I'm having difficulty seeing why the vote moved if golden009 is a Mafia player with access to Daytalk (the Traitor role crossed my mind, but I think that a Traitor in MathBlade's position would most likely not claim VT).

He's talking about golden's actions from D1 here, and says that golden is not scum because of those actions. Was he sleeping on this before his vote on golden or something? Because, again, he voted golden FOR D1 reasons. How can he now frame those actions as town after framing them as scum? And the timing of this is way too convenient.

[Dierfire]

@BBT

I just want you to tell me who is scum and why.

Not a PoE list.

I gave thoughts on golden009 in 1557 (since retracted in 2070), and on Saru in 1869 (admittedly this is a weak read). Did you have a comment about them?

Anyway, I've read Cass in ISO, and I've found a few things that are suspicious.

VOTE: Cass

I thought that the decision to cast suspicion on pitoli in 1354 was suspicious because I'm not seeing a coherent theory for why a Mafia player would ask for a second claim, having already received one. It feels more like trying to spin the hammer as suspicious without directly saying so (it's also relevant that Cass had hammer intent on Glitch and did not change her opinion in that post, so it's strange to me that she claims in 1565 that she was suspicious of pitoli being eager to hammer a

Town

player).
Also, Cass expressed suspicion of pitoli's voting pattern (1424), but appears not to have spent time on that ISO (despite having marked it as a priority) and instead moves several other votes around. It feels to me as though Cass has ulterior motives (as though she wants to be able to vote for pitoli if the votes are there).

[Dierfire]

@House

the reason that I'd prefer lynching him over rb is that I'm reading rb as Town and can more easily base that read on concrete things. As an additional illustration of the difference, I also don't like the "style" that RyanK was using, but I have some concrete reasons to read RyanK as Town.

There is more to reading players than the answers they provide to questions, Dier. I rather dislike basing my reads on the answers to questions because scum has the tendency to lie, y'know?

Do you really want to know how I'm so certain that BBT is town?

1272 - can't read Ryan for shit, suggests an investigative target him at the end of d1.

1392 - is

really

sure Ryan is town, at the very beginning of the next day.

1960 - had zero fear of being lynched. Some call this overconfidence, but he knows he won't be lynched because he has a role that can't be countered.

These three posts mean infinitely more in the way of reading alignment that

anything

rb has posted, imho.

I'm aware that Mafia players might lie; I'm not sure that this works as a reason to dislike basing reads on answers (any more than it works as a reason to dislike basing reads on posts in general). The point is to see whether stated reasoning matches actions and is sincere--the whole thing is predicated on the idea that the Mafia players must lie about things, and that we can detect those lies.
I'm not inclined to discuss this much further at this time, but I'm not seeing that 1392 looks to be a PR result.
Also, I don't have much experience with BBT as Mafia, but multiple other players who do have said that he can play with confidence as Mafia.

[Dierfire]

@Saru

No, my vote was not cast for the purpose of having MathBlade answer my questions to golden009 (in fact, I didn't have many specific questions for golden009--I was most interested in hearing updated opinions, which a replacement would tend to provide without prompting). I also didn't need a response--from golden009 or MathBlade--to my accusations.

So, let me get this straight: you wanted to hear only "updated opinions" from a replacement, but you also vote the slot AND didn't need nor want a response to your accusations from that slot? Sounds like to me you were beyond sure that, that slot would have flipped scum. But then, when the replacement for it does come in, you end up just unvoting and then never providing actual scum reads or an actual vote. Your thought process with the golden slot has been utterly inconsistent.

It's actually so blatant that I'm surprised I'm the only one noticing it

.

I'd given my thoughts on golden009 in 1557. Which of them looked like they required a response from golden009? Also, as I have multiple players expressing suspicion of me, the underlined (my addition) feels...exaggerated to me.

And as to the quote that you posted, no, it's not me saying you town read rb because he town reads you. My point was that since you didn't respond to an argument that had your name come up so much(which is really not like you), it felt like you were giving a silent nod to rb's arguments against me. You prove this to me when you come back with the same exact stuff that rb said about me after I prompted you for a comment. Almost word for word.

You are saying that you were worried that I was agreeing with rb more than with you? I was agreeing with rb more than with you (I especially liked 1528 and 1538!), although it's not clear to me why that would worry you.

Here is my line of reasoning. Martha had hinted at having a role in 578, and the Mafia players were evidently aware of this (as they killed her N1). In 614 golden009 casts a vote for Martha (vote was on me before that). This is after the wagon on Martha largely dissolved, so why is golden009 moving his vote? He didn't have much of a chance of lynching Martha. He didn't need to move his vote to have it parked on someone who wouldn't have been lynched (the existing vote on me would have fulfilled that purpose). He didn't really need to worry that a vote on me would attract a tremendous amount of suspicion. Therefore, I'm having difficulty seeing why the vote moved if golden009 is a Mafia player with access to Daytalk (the Traitor role crossed my mind, but I think that a Traitor in MathBlade's position would most likely not claim VT).

Wait. So you couldn't have thought of this before-hand? Meaning, you scum read golden from D1, but all these actions you JUST described are ALL from D1. Like...what? This just sounds like an excuse to hop off the wagon on a slot whose replacement isn't one to go down so easily. Pushing someone like Math is going to be hard for you to do, and I'm sure you know this from Mini 1800. Hop off when they come in with some convoluted reasoning, nice.

Well, it would have been hard for me to use this logic D1, because I hadn't seen Martha flip yet. If you are saying that I should have picked it up earlier D2, then perhaps I should have (although I didn't see you pointing it out either--if you saw a problem with my theory that golden009 was Mafia, perhaps you could have pointed it out to me sooner, and if you don't agree with me about the "convoluted reasoning" here then I'd like to hear why).

Don't accuse someone and then not expect or want an answer from them UNLESS you're 100% sure they're scum.

This might be the source of our confusion, I suppose. Again, I'm not seeing that my specific accusations against golden009 required any specific response from golden009, and I disagree that this requires 100% confidence on my part. When I want a response, I will ask a question. When I state a read, while I am pleased to receive input from other players about the read (including the player that I am reading), I don't need any response.

[House]

so it's strange to me that she claims in 1565 that she was suspicious of pitoli being eager to hammer a Town player).

Do you mean this bit?

Made him sound like scum eager and happy to hammer a townie.

That doesn't sound like she is calling Glitch town per se, but the kind of scum v town interaction where scum is hammering town.

It sounds speculative, not like a slip.

[House]

Also, Cass expressed suspicion of pitoli's voting pattern (1424), but appears not to have spent time on that ISO (despite having marked it as a priority)

and instead moves several other votes around.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Clarify, please?

[House]

Also, I don't have much experience with BBT as Mafia, but multiple other players who do have said that he can play with confidence as Mafia.

idc, confidence is not evidence of scum motivation.

Not lynching there.

[Dierfire]

Glitch was lynched in 1374, so 1565 should not be speculative.
In the latter point, I meant that Cass states this:

- Pitoli has the most suspicious voting pattern from my pov - note to self to ISO him.

However, multiple other votes are cast before that ISO is read. Why is "the most suspicious voting pattern" not a priority?

---EDIT---

Very well--as I'm not currently asking you to lynch BBT, I'm willing to table that issue.

[rb]

Lol I really don't wanna re-read this game again but I feel like I need to.

[rb]

Thoughts on House/BBT/Ryan scumteam?

[rb]

Would BBT fake an inno? I think BBT would fake an inno, but whatever...if we have a real Cop then they can just CC tomorrow.

I still think House is a really shitty slot to leave alive because ime the people who out PR's are usually scum. Sometimes you have some really derp town who does it but it's rare. Scum are the ones PR hunting the most and tend to see PR tells the best because town don't really look explicitly for PR's as it's better and easier to just find scum.

The fact House actually pieces together a PR claim from BBT and feels the need to announce it makes me suspicious af. Just gonna remove my BBT/Ryan scumreads as I re-read why BBT is apparently PR and it makes sense. Can't help but feel it could be fake/staged with mafia daytalk but whatever, can't tinfoil hat that hard.

[rb]

House/Dier is viable, House/Ryan isn't when I consider it.

[rb]

Expedience I don't even remember why I was townreading, but from my POV the unlikely combos where if one flips red the other is basically conftown are:

BBT/Math
House/Ryan
Dier/BBT
Chuck/Expedience

I don't think any of these slots can be scum aligned with the other and I think if we can get the correct red flip in there town will win from there because Ryan is apparently innocent along with BBT. I think Math is town so we lynch Dier/Chuck/Expedience.

I actually prefer Chuck over Dier.

[MathBlade]

The game is up.

Your time has come rb.

Scum running the choo choo train.

Telling his partner he is getting bussed.

Math you can't be serious :/

Serious enough Mafiascum should consider my middle name serious.

[MathBlade]

Actually, Dier DID push a slot. Lo and behold, an empty slot. golden.

Oh, and here's the kicker, he unvotes and backs off as soon as that slot gets filled with a player he knows is hard to get lynched. His excuse is "golden is not scum from D1 actions" after saying "golden is scum from D1 actions."

Factual correction: I am not hard to lynch. Just noisy and memorable.
Scum likely could push a Mislynch but whoever does will be remembered.

[MathBlade]

Expedience I don't even remember why I was townreading, but from my POV the unlikely combos where if one flips red the other is basically conftown are:

BBT/Math
House/Ryan
Dier/BBT
Chuck/Expedience

I don't think any of these slots can be scum aligned with the other and I think if we can get the correct red flip in there town will win from there because Ryan is apparently innocent along with BBT. I think Math is town so we lynch Dier/Chuck/Expedience.

I actually prefer Chuck over Dier.

...This list is shit.

BBT / Math : If BBT flips Red it likely means House is with BBT. It means nothing for my alignment as I am loud and poke scum just as loudly as town. See 1800 for an example.

House/Ryan again not indicative. They push and talk and argue. House is vocal but sometimes he is just flat out wrong on things.

Dier/BBT I think BBT is likely town. However Dier I waffle on. More than likely once I came into the spot he realized I am town more than anything else. Dier I see the waffle he did but I don't think he is scum over one of RB/Chuck.

Chuck/Expedience I agreed with at first but that could have been bad distancing.

Want Chuck or RB.

[rb]

House is gameplay's replacement, you can't really think they're scumbuddies :/

Also bad distancing? Lolwut?

Chuck has been tunneling Expedience for an entire game. Since like halfway through Day 1 he has pretty much done nothing but try to lynch Expedience.

Also we agree that if BBT flips red House is likely partner.

[rb]

Math you're really irritating me because I townread you and I want to work but your insistence I'm scum is just bad. You're basing it off a meta that's my actual personality and your points just don't make sense pls stahp.

[House]

The fact House actually pieces together a PR claim from BBT

1) never said he claimed a PR.
2) I was asked a question, and stumbled across those posts in the course of my ISO, which made me wonder how someone could 180 their read over the course of the night phase.
3) Your reaching is terribad.

[Accountant]

@mod: ETA on RyanK replacement? Also, will you be replacing Cass or pitoli?

Usually, it is difficult to tell. That's because I usually post my replacement requests in the replacement request thread, and am thus waiting until someone interested PMs me of their own accord. In this particular case, however, I have received a PM from someone who wants to replace in, and since I replace by order of dropping out, RyanK will be shortly replaced.