Open 652- Making Friends and Enemies: Over

[NJAC]

Martha's wagon looks fine:

VOTE: Martha

[NJAC]

So, @Zyf, why exactly you don't like to end RVS with a bandwagon? Why exactly is it 'illogical' to push that wagon?

[NJAC]

Not to mention that you seem to have a point while voting Martha, @Zyf:

VOTE: Martha
You apparently know what rvs is but can't recognize an rvs vote

If you wanted this to be answered, why the unvote? Why stalling in RVS with a random vote to invoke me instead of pushing this forward?

[NJAC]

Wait, I'm not sure I'm following this:

Does it look like it?

Yes, it does.
So, is it?

No it isn'

t

Then why didn't you point it out that it's a RVS?

"Because it was obvious"?

If so, why did you point out that your second vote is RVS? Isn't that obvious too?

Martha says her first vote was NOT RVS. Harko's response to it suggest he thinks Martha's first vote is random.

@Martha: if your first vote was a serious vote, what exactly was the reason for voting BBT?

@Harko: Where did Martha point her first vote out as RVS? Why are you misrepping her?

[NJAC]

VOTE: Zyf

So the reasons for bandwagoing Martha are stronger now?

P-Edit: Oh fine, so you just jump off the wagon again .

[NJAC]

Yeah, nope. Martha is town and her wagon seems scumdriven.

Let me reread...

[NJAC]

that's a fucking terrible defense I've practically scumclaimed in my second post and lived way too long because my play improved

Please elaborate this. What's the terrible defense you're talking about? When did you scumclaim in your second post? What game are you talking about? Were you scum in that game?

[NJAC]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

He knows why.

I don't know why. Elaborate?

You're RVSing when a lot have been discussed?

[NJAC]

I'm not liking Io, BTW.

Still deciding which one of the Martha's wagon pushers is the scummiest.

Undecided between Thor, Harko and BBT. The last one reads a bit townier, though.

[NJAC]

Martha is town, this L-1 is bad.

[NJAC]

I mean there are some players who have barely posted. Can some of you unvote and discuss things rationally?

[NJAC]

Martha's wagon has had almost no resistance, she's obv lynchbait.

[NJAC]

I mean there are some players who have barely posted. Can some of you unvote and discuss things rationally?

no, I want a claim?

Why the hurry mate?

[NJAC]

Ok Zyf, she already claimed, now what?

[NJAC]

Sigh is on second line rather than first, indicating frustration at getting lynched rather than at being a vt unable to defend themselves with a better claim
I'm staying

This is BS.

VOTE: Zyf

[NJAC]

Well, for starters, you're resistant to it.
Also Loop.
Zyf actually wobbled a lot.
Some other players have almost aggressively avoided mentioning it.

How much resistance does it need to be a scum wagon?

I think I'm the only one openly resisting it. Zyf put her at L-1, so he doesn't count as resistant. Loop was basically catching up.

It's not hard to see she's lynchbait. I don't even know why you're questioning this, you're a competent player AFAIK. If you're town you should see that Martha's wagon was scumdriven .

[NJAC]

Thor looks town.

Why?

[NJAC]

I'll hammer myself

Scum-claim.

Nope. Frustrated newbtown.

[NJAC]

Zyf assuredly counts as defense, and Loop was defending her also.
It's also a duck of a question, you're acting like lack of defense equates to town (which is already a shaky reality, for example, I've defended Hark, I'm town, so it has no bearing on him being scum - ergo the tell is empty) and then choosing to rule out yourself and others without actually clarifying how much defense is needed.

Zyf put her at L-1, he didn't resist the wagon. Period. Surely I can see Martha's wagon was not that hard to defend, so why at least one of her supposed scum partners wouldn't try to release some pression on that wagon?

I don't say lack of defense equates to town every time, but in this specific game, given the way that wagon formed, I'm leaning to think she's town. Ergo the tell is not empty, because is not a generalization but rather a specifc tell on how things happened in this specific game.

Why are you even talking about how much defense is needed? It's not like there's a number or something. It obviously depends on context. It may happen that there's no defense at all, and still get a scum flip.

So, no, I'm not basing my read on that slot only on the lack of defense towards his wagon, but also on her reaction, with seems to me like genuine frustrated newbtown.

Who are the scum, and what makes them scum?

Still working on it. As I said I need to reread, but my focus is in {Thor, Harko, BBT, Naru, Io}.

Well...for starters, byher own admission she wasn't new.
But even if she was new (which is factually untrue) what prevents her from being frustrated newbscum in your eyes?
Really want an answer here.

She said she was an alt, she said she played in another site. I still think she's new to the standards of this site. I've seen this kind of frustration from newbtown before.

I might obviously be wrong and maybe that slot is scum, but my stance for now is that she's town. In fact texcat posts also feel town.

[NJAC]

why at least one of her supposed scum partners wouldn't try to release some

pression

on that wagon?

EBWOP: why at least one of her supposed scum partners wouldn't try to release some

pressure

on that wagon?

[NJAC]

More later...

[NJAC]

I'm rereading. Maybe I'll do some comments later on what I've found and reply to more recent stuff.

Meanwhile I want to make some questions on some tiny things that have called my attention:

Okay, let me try to explain better.
Martha is the biggest wagon rn, and p much everyone is scumreading her.

Not a fan of Martha so far

Doesn't really put alot of pressure, does it?

Sorry if this is obvious, but I'm trying to understand your point: here you say Naru's not putting a lot of pressure on Martha, or that by stating suspicion on the biggest wagon he won't be pressured to explain his read further?

Assuming the former, if you think that doesn't put a lot of pressure, what would have been a better way to put the pressure?

Hmm...maybe not Loop.

Looking like a Hark/Thor scumteam

...what are the odds?

UNVOTE: Loopdan
VOTE: Hark

I am interested in how you came to that conclusion so quickly. What makes you think that?

Out of everything that you could have questioned, you chose probably the most boring.

Why exactly do you think that was probably the most boring thing to question? What was the most exciting thing to question at that moment?

Zyf FoSed Martha, yet he didn't vote her

What were you implying here?

[NJAC]

@Mod: V/LA until monday

[NJAC]

Back. Reading...

[NJAC]

Sorry for the absence. Some IRL issues. Catching up in a while.

[NJAC]

I'm still trying to catch up, have had little time because of work. While I continue reading I like to point out that I agree with this (context: Thor replying to BBT's case on Hark):

There is, first off, no misrep there. I know what you're trying to sell as a misrep - but I find Hark's answer quite reasonable.
Also, though I can see the double standard concept you're selling here, it's not valid - because Hark was reacting to Naru's first ad only post, whereas you had posted multiple times at that stage and easily could have said things that weren't triggering Hark's 'safe play' scumtell, whereas Naru had a lot of the thread to react to, and opted to only ding at a very recent moment, sheep an already made comment, and offer no real thoughts while also hopping on the biggest wagon of the moment. That makes COMPLETE sense to me as a reaction from Hark, and I don't get your boggle there at all.

In fact when I read Naru's first post I also thought he was taking a "safe" stance (in the sense explained by Hark) with the things that were going on at that moment.

[NJAC]

Have to leave now, but after reading to the post I quoted in my previous post my reads are something like:

Leaning town {Harkonnen97, Thor665, Dunnstral, PenguinPower, Loopdan, texcat}
Null {BlueBloodedToffee, Not_Mafia, Zyf}
Leaning scum {Io, karnos, Narurider}

[NJAC]

I'll continue catching up later.

[NJAC]

UNVOTE:

[NJAC]

After reading, some initial reads are:

Town:
Harko
Penguin
texcat
Dunnstral
Maybe Loop

Null:
BBT
N_M

Scum:
Naru
Thor

VOTE: Naru

[NJAC]

Too many town reads, maybe texcat can move to null. Need to read Penguin's ISO, but I think he pushed karnos' lynch.

[NJAC]

VOTE: PenguinPower

looking back at karnos' and texcat's slots interactions, i don't think they are scumbuddies together.

Why does that indicate Penguin is scum?

[NJAC]

Why is he town?

[NJAC]

@Penguin: I think it's time to explain this:

Jesus Christ you are an idiot. Thanks for ruining that one

Don't want to say right now...there's no benefit to that at this time. It had nothing to do with quickerhammering/hammering of any kind.

Had nothing to do with you.

I'm done talking about this now.

[NJAC]

Better question; why is he scum?

Hark explained what was wrong with Naru's first post D1, texcat already said a few other things about his play. I personally didn't like his initial vote and push on Martha. I also didn't like him putting Hark at L-1. Only thing that make me doubt is his vote on karnos.

Now, why is he town?

[NJAC]

What Hark said.

VOTE: Penguin

Also, Hark didn't even mention anything about Penguin. What's your case on Penguin?

[NJAC]

Yeah...no. It's irrelevant at this point, and probably wouldn't have worked the way I intended it to.

I insist.

[NJAC]

[NJAC]

Then lynch me.

You realise I'm townreading you, right?

[NJAC]

Great. Then drop it, and let's move on to something useful. What are your thoughts on Hark? You have him listed as a townread.

I don't want to drop it because I find your vote on texcat, pushing for a claim, weird, given that her predecessor already had claimed, and I'm still in the process of getting reads, so it's not like me townreading you is set on stone, so it would be nice if you explain this.

[NJAC]

What are your thoughts on Hark? You have him listed as a townread.

Yeah, I think he's town. His reaction when he was at L-1, the way karnos placed intent to hammer, and the subsequent push on karnos' lynch and hammer, make him town.

[NJAC]

What are ppl's thoughts on texcat at this point? It's odd to see everyone suddenly just ignore them

What are your thoughts on her?

[NJAC]

Geez. If everyone knew that texcat's predecessor claimed, then why did Thor ask?

You should ask him. Stop dodging the request. Explain what you wanted to achieve.

[NJAC]

@Hark:

VOTE: PenguinPower

looking back at karnos' and texcat's slots interactions, i don't think they are scumbuddies together.

Why does that indicate Penguin is scum?

[NJAC]

Ok, what's your case on Penguin?

[NJAC]

No, you didn't

VOTE: Penguin

L-1

[NJAC]

UNVOTE:

We need to hear from those who have not posted.

Penguin is now in my nullscummy list.

[NJAC]

VOTE: Narurider

As pointed out before 699 is bad reasoning for putting Harko at L-1, seems very opportunistic.

[NJAC]

So here it is...

Anything else referencing that, I'm ignoring. I won't say anything about it, won't quote, won't respond going forward. If that gets me lynched, then you are all morons tunneling on an irrelevant point.

Done.

There are enough antitown players in this game, why do you insist in becoming one of them?

If you had explained this already, we would have saved time and effort, and could focus on something else. Also, you must realise that if some of us are asking you to explain what you did, it's because we're trying to read you and understand the motives behind what you've done.

[NJAC]

I don't want to lynch penguin

please elaborate

There's nothing to elaborate

In fact I'd also like you to elaborate. Why exactly don't you want to lynch Penguin?

[NJAC]

Okay so I'm pretty sure that Hark is town. I think I made a mistake on that scumread D1 so sorry about that Hark.

Why exactly are you pretty sure about it, to the point of being sorry of your scumread on him? It's not like Hark is confirmed town, AFAICT.

[NJAC]

@Dunnstral: in case you didn't note it, this was addressed to you:

I don't want to lynch penguin

please elaborate

There's nothing to elaborate

In fact I'd also like you to elaborate. Why exactly don't you want to lynch Penguin?

[NJAC]

I'm having a hard time believing that town!Thor is trying to tell me that we should lynch someone based on a flipped scum's ISO.

Why is it hard to believe? I find it reasonable. And I don't think Thor is referring only on karnos' ISO, but in his interactions with others. In fact that's one of the reasons of my vote being on Naru and not on Penguin.

[NJAC]

@BBT:

Will explain both when I can get on my laptop.

[NJAC]

I think the last two scum are in {Naru, BBT, N_M}.

[NJAC]

Not_mafia, regardless of your alignment, you are D U M B.

^

[NJAC]

VOTE: BBT

[NJAC]

So, @Zyf, do you think BBT is town? If so, why is that?

[NJAC]

I'd also like you to explain why exactly you were townreading Naru, @BBT, as you said you was going to do on D2.

You also didn't explain your vote on Penguin. Do you still scumread Penguin? If so why N_M over Pengu?

[NJAC]

It's still too early @Zyf, why the hurry?

I want BBT to explain what has been asked to him, so no more quickhammers please.

Also, I've seen karnos and N_M's ISOs and I find their interaction interesting. I mean, karnos pushed for a N_M lynch even to the point of defending texcat's slot. That makes me think that N_M could be town.

[NJAC]

We were roughly halfway through D1. Totally something scum!karnos would do to a scumbuddy.

Sure but why bussing a scumbuddy that hard, given that N_M´s lynch was feasible, instead of just letting the mislynch on texcat happen, or simply pushing somewhere else?

[NJAC]

I still think that NofMafia quickhammered hoping to catch a mason before the claim. A bigger scum tell.

Actually I agree with this, it's clear that N_M deserves to die because of anti town play, including quickhammering without a claim. The thing is I'm not sure if quickhammering is AI when it's N_M who we talk about.

[NJAC]

UNVOTE:

No more lolhammers.

[NJAC]

NVM

N_M is already voting him.

VOTE: BBT

[NJAC]

Ok @BBT, I think I can buy your townread on Naru. Now please explain your D2 vote on Penguin. Do you still scumread Pengu? Do you prefer lynching N_M or Hark over Pengu?

[NJAC]

Your vote on Hark is dumb. I liked more the vote on N_M, actually.

[NJAC]

{Harko, texcat, Penguin, Zyf}
{N_M, Dunnstral}
{BBT, DeasVail}

Last two are mainly PoE. I admit BBT hasn't done anything particularly scummy, but if he's town that means I need to reevaluate my reads.

[NJAC]

@Zyf: you were townreading BBT, right? Why the sudden intent to hammer?

Again there's no need to rush things, we still have to hear from others, as there are some questions posed to Deas and Dunn, IIRC.

[NJAC]

@BBT:

Let's say you've showed that there's no case on you and there might be scum on your wagon. Who are the scumpair and why?

[NJAC]

Emphasis in 'why'. Bonus points if you try to consider Hark as town.

[NJAC]

[NJAC]

Nothing to regret @Hark. You did fine.

[NJAC]

I'm fine with revealing the PT.

[NJAC]

I would like it noted, especially to Zyf, that nobody noted any crumbs.

I think I was being paranoid then

[NJAC]

@Thor -- Do you mind pointing out where/how you crumbed? Thanks.

I don't five post dance,

such is my claim

.