Micro 661 | Scumteam UnPick - Pressure Done

[Jaack]

VOTE: ZZZX

Multiple, unnecessary z's? My archnemesis!

I've been trying to come up with a reason why we shouldn't claim our unpicks from the start, but I can't. The best thing scum can do is try and copy someone else's picks. Even if they lie about their picks, the pair they give is still confirmed not to be the scumteam since they can't include themselves.

[Jaack]

Yeah scum can't lie in any beneficial way (to scum) as they can't claim their scum team. They can try and copy someone else's pair or they can try and pair their scumpartner with someone, but all the information they give to town is going to be factual.

As for how to claim it, I don't think we really NEED to make it too complicated, since if someone at the end of the line claims two picks that have already been claimed, it will reflect quite poorly on them. I'm fine with your method, ZZZX, if that's what we want to do, but I don't think it's totally necessary.

[Jaack]

Nah, we should claim before too much discussion. If we wait to long, scum will have opportunity to tailor their clears to the gamestate.

If someone obvtowns it up, then scum can just include them in their claimed picks.

[Jaack]

I thought we were popcorning....

Oh well, it really shouldn't make too much of a difference.

Gamma Emerald + ProHawk
and
Tenshii + Dunhallym

[Jaack]

	ZZZX	Dunhallym	ProHawk	Tenshii	Secret Agent Jin	Gamma Emerald	ArcAngel9	Jaack
ZZZX	X		Gamma Pick		ProHawk pick
Dunhallym		X		Jaack Pick
ProHawk	Gamma Pick		X			Jaack Pick		Jin Pick
Tenshii		Jaack Pick		X			ProHawk pick	Gamma Pick
Secret Agent Jin	ProHawk pick				X
Gamma Emerald			Jaack Pick			X	Jin Pick
ArcAngel9				ProHawk pick		Jin Pick	X
Jaack			Jin Pick	Gamma Pick				X

Updated chart.

No repeats yet, which is good.

[Jaack]

We need picks from Tenshii and Dunhallym 10/28 Scumteams have been eliminated.

	ZZZX	Dunhallym	ProHawk	Tenshii	Secret Agent Jin	Gamma Emerald	ArcAngel9	Jaack
ZZZX	X		Gamma/ArcAngel Pick		ProHawk pick
Dunhallym		X		Jaack Pick
ProHawk	Gamma/ArcAngel Pick		X			Jaack Pick		Jin Pick
Tenshii		Jaack Pick		X			ProHawk/ZZZX pick	Gamma Pick
Secret Agent Jin	ProHawk pick				X	ArcAngel Pick
Gamma Emerald			Jaack Pick		ArcAngel Pick	X	Jin Pick	ZZZX Pick
ArcAngel9				ProHawk/ZZZX pick		Jin Pick	X
Jaack			Jin Pick	Gamma Pick		ZZZX Pick		X

[Jaack]

It may not be of too much help D1 tbh, but we need to fill it out now so scum has as little info as possible to make their clears.

I'm not going to go into much more until tenshii reveals his picks, but I have a few ideas.

[Jaack]

I chose randomly.

[Jaack]

Final Chart (Removed the word pick to appease tenshii

	ZZZX	Dunhallym	ProHawk	Tenshii	Secret Agent Jin	Gamma Emerald	ArcAngel9	Jaack
ZZZX	X		Gamma/ArcAngel	Dunhallym	ProHawk	Tenshii
Dunhallym		X		Jaack				Tenshii
ProHawk	Gamma/ArcAngel		X			Jaack		Jin
Tenshii	Dunhallym	Jaack		X			ProHawk/ZZZX	Gamma
Secret Agent Jin	ProHawk				X	ArcAngel/Dunhallym
Gamma Emerald	Tenshii		Jaack		ArcAngel/Dunhallym	X	Jin	ZZZX
ArcAngel9				ProHawk/ZZZX		Jin	X
Jaack		Tenshii	Jin	Gamma		ZZZX		X

And for further reference, here's the total scumteams possible for each player:
ZZZX=3
Dunhallym=5
ProHawk=4
Tenshii=3
Secret Agent Jin=5
Gamma Emerald=2
ArcAngel9=5
Jaack=3

There are 15 total possible scumteams.

[Jaack]

(Oh cool accident page top for good info)

As for analysis of our chart, I don't see any lynch that's just too valuable to pass up as nothing outright confirms town. It is cool that we only had three repeated picks, but the distribution is even enough that I don't see an easy path to a win, but just to check...

We need to catch at least one scum in the first three lynches.

If we were to use those three lynches on Dunhallym, Jin, and ArcAngel, that would cover all possible scumteams except Jaack/ZZZX, ProHawk/Tenshii, and Gamma/Tenshii. That's pretty good odds of getting, but just lynching one scum among them isn't going to win. If we were to rigidly lynch from those three ignoring flips altogether, town would win By D3 20% of the time, lose 20% of the time, and go to 3p lylo 60% of the time. Of course we probably wouldn't be rigid (if one of the first two we lynch flips scum our chances would be significantly better) but the odds aren't super in our favor.

I do think it's in our best interest to lynch the scummiest from {Dunhallym, Jin, ArcAngel} D1 and re-evaluate after a flip. I don't think we have enough info right now to force a win.

I don't really have a strong feeling on any of them yet so I don't have a preference at this time, but I will be focusing on those three players D1.

I'll try and clean up the chart to make it more small-screen friendly.

[Jaack]

Smaller Chart

	ZZZX	Dunhallym	ProHawk	Tenshii	Jin	Gamma	ArcAngel9	Jaack
ZZZX	X		O	O	O	O
Dunhallym		X		O				O
ProHawk	O		X			O		O
Tenshii	O	O		X			O	O
Jin	O				X	O
Gamma	O		O		O	X	O	O
ArcAngel9				O		O	X
Jaack		O	O	O		O		X

I left out the names of the pickers for now, but the O's mark impossible teams.

[Jaack]

The chart in 79 cover's the same stuff but it's a little more concise so I'll reference that for explanation:

	ZZZX	Dunhallym	ProHawk	Tenshii	Jin	Gamma	ArcAngel9	Jaack
ZZZX	X		O	O	O	O
Dunhallym		X		O				O
ProHawk	O		X			O		O
Tenshii	O	O		X			O	O
Jin	O				X	O
Gamma	O		O		O	X	O	O
ArcAngel9				O		O	X
Jaack		O	O	O		O		X

The

O

's mark impossible teams. For example, I underlined one of them. Since it's in ProHawk's column and ZZZX's row, that means the scumteam of ProHawk+ZZZX is impossible.

The blank spots are possible scumteams. The spot beneath the underlined

O

is blank, meaning the scumteam of ProHawk+Dunhallym is possible based on our picks.

The X's simply mark where a single player makes up both the column and the row, so they can safely be ignored.

Note that everything is repeated once in the chart. All the information exists on either side of the diagonal of X's. I can try and clean it up for a second to get rid of that...

	ZZZX
Dunhallym		Dunhallym
ProHawk	O		ProHawk
Tenshii	O	O		Tenshii
Jin	O				Jin
Gamma	O		O		O	Gamma
ArcAngel9				O		O	ArcAngel
Jaack		O	O	O		O

It's not exceedinly pretty, but all vital information is there.

If you're still confused, here is the list of possible scumteams based on our unpicks:
ZZZX+Dunhallym
ZZZX+ArcAngel9
ZZZX+Jaack
Dunhallym+ProHawk
Dunhallym+Secret Agent Jin
Dunhallym+Gamma Emerald
Dunhallym+ArcAngel9
ProHawk+Tenshii
ProHawk+Secret Agent Jin
ProHawk+ArcAngel9
Tenshii+Secret Agent Jin
Tenshii+Gamma Emerald
Secret Agent Jin+ArcAngel9
Secret Agent Jin+Jaack
ArcAngel9+Jaack

[Jaack]

You want discussion? Okay. Who or what do you want to talk about?

I think I'm going to start here:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Secret Agent Jin

Both ArcAngel and Jin had less than stellar RVS votes, but I didn't really like how Jin walked his back after being called out on it.

@Dunhallym - I'm not really interested in getting into a more theory oriented discussion at this point (I agree that there are a lot of players not doing much) but I will respond to a few things.

First, I did not forget about how each of us knows we're clear. It's just not a fact that's particularly useful to discussion, particularly at this point, where no one's knowledge of their townness clears anyone else. Like I know personally that there is at least one scum among {Tenshii, Dunhallym, ArcAngel, Jin} but that's too vague to be useful even to me, let alone the other players.

And secondly, I am not fully committed to any plan beyond D1. There's no way to force a win with our allotted amount mislynches yet, but I do think that focusing our efforts on the most likely scum players is a productive use of time D1. D1 scum lynch rates are not significantly different from random selection and limiting the pool to those most likely to be scum based on game mechanics seems like a good idea to me.

[Jaack]

Calling your self vote a joke in 12 looks like you're walking back to me.

And the fact that you kept your self vote doesn't do you any favors.

[Jaack]

Calling your self vote a joke in 12 looks like you're walking back to me.

And the fact that you kept your self vote doesn't do you any favors.

What else would it be if not a joke? Was the other votes against the host not jokes? I kept my self vote because it wasnt hurting anything and at the time i didnt have a better place to put the vote.

There is literally always a better place to put your vote than on yourself. If you are town, then you are literally voting against your lynch condition. There might be occasions where it's okay to self vote as scum, but literally never as town unless there are specific setup shenanigans, which don't exist in this game. You may have just been misguided town, but that doesn't mean I'm going to let something blatantly anti-town happen with addressing it.

And while RVS might be a relatively less serious time, even joke votes provide a small amount of info and scum can be caught based on how they act when they don't think people are scouring over their posts. A self vote denies town a small amount if info and fails to force interactions with anyone.

I also don't like how your first respone to me voting you is to vote me right back, considering you had ostensibly been townreading me immediately prior (80).

[Jaack]

I know sarcasm is hard to express without voice or visual clues but i assure you that it was sarcasm when i wrote that he must have superhuman reading skills. Its obvious that he is fabricating things based on his biased view toward what is an RVS vote. How is my vote against myself AI? How does anyone look at Zaack's "case" against me prove anything i did was scum? If i gain enough votes today and get lynched please take my town flip as a reason to lynch Zaack.

Well first of all, my name begins with a J. I'm normally not a stickler for this type of stuff but I'm going to stop the misspelling now when I have the chance before the second a gets dropped which will really push my buttons.

Moving along to game related stuff, you're acting like I've condemned you as obvscum, when I literally said you were a good place to start when I voted you. I voted you because of my lynchpool for the day, Dunhallym looks reasonably town and between you and ArcAngel, your RVS looked worse to me. I'll fully admit that my initial reasons for voting you weren't much, but your reaction to a single vote (well now two) has been over the top panicky for the level of pressure I put you under.

That being said, you continue to bury yourself with posts like these:

Let me elaborate on this sentence i said before anyone takes it wrong. I meant that from the first game i had ever played of mafia/werewolf, i have noticed that people show me a lot of (mostly bad) attention for my gameplay. Over the years, that has made me aware that i play a pretty scummy game no matter my alignment, hence the warning in the previous post.

Now I can understand people who naturally look kind of scummy, which is to say that they often get scumread as town. But if you are self-aware in such a way, you should be used to town voting you. But your immediate response was to hardscumread me, right after you had expressed a reasonably hard townread of me (Don't even try to weasel your way out of that. You said you were convinced I wasn't scum. That's not a null read). This just doesn't add up. I feel like if you were town, the immediate response would have been to try to reason with me. But it was to vote me and act like I'm ramrodding you're lynch through.

[Jaack]

You can feel whatever way you want

Z

Jaack but it doesn't change my alignment. You may feel that a townie should act one way when voted on but i tend to react the way i did. I cant reason with you as there is no way to prove my alignment this early on and with little information from posts. If you bring new AI information to the table i will continue with you until then I am done with this back and forth.

You're free to not respond to me but just saying that my observations are not indicitive of alignment does not make them so. I think your reaction to my pressure makes more sense if you are scum and your continued attempts to brush me off do nothing to change that opinion.

Furthermore you now purport to have a scumread on me but are declining to try and decifer me any further? You say there is too little information for me to scumread you but you are making no effort to improve the situation.

[Jaack]

@Jaack

: what do you think of Arc? I’d also like your opinion on ZZZX.

I don't have much of an opinion on Arc. When I voted for Jin initiially I almsot voted for Arc because modvotes aren't much better than self votes in RVS, but other than that I don't really see anything notable with what she's done so far. I think her confusion with regards to your questions is genuine, but that's doesn't rule out her being scum necessarily.

ZZZX gives me a few scummy feels. He says he wants to focus on scumhunting in 98 but doesn't really add much going in that direction. Could just be lazy town, but I'm keeping an eye out here.

[Jaack]

ONe question I dont get @tenshii and @jack. Why are you just so focused on his RVS vote? Am I missing something or wat.

The RVS post that I initially voted Jin for was a starting point for me to start developing reads on the players I was interested in lynching. His reaction to that vote is the primary reason why I continue to scumread Jin. To me it appears he panicked when I voted him and began to act like his lynch was inevitible when I was the only one voting for him.

[Jaack]

If i was scum Jaack, why would i panic and when one vote was on me?

In my experience scum tend to overestimate their chances of being lynched. You had one vote and started to warn town against lynching you.

[Jaack]

Thats a very horrible way to look at a reaction. Me instantly telling you it is a bad idea to lynch me when one vote is on me is NAI. There is literally no reason for scum to panic at one vote.

Is there ANYTHING you do that is indicative of alignment. Everytime I point out something in your play you brush it off as NAI.

Well guess what. If everything you do is not indicative of alignment then I'm going to have to assume you're scum for not doing anything indicative of being town.

In my experience, people who are overly concerned with their own lynch unnecessarily flip scum more often than not.

[Jaack]

1) I never townread Jaack, everybody thinks i did but all i said was that i didnt scumread him. That can be anywhere from a Null read to a Town read. After some posts by him my viewpoint changed and i began to read him as a scumlean.

You know, I might be able to cut you some slack if you admitted you changed your read as a result of my vote from town to scum but the fact that you are trying to deny townreading me when the evidence clearly states otherwise is incredibly unlikely to come from town.

IF you are scum then you are doing a good job of playing it out in public but i am convinced that you arent and that to me leaves only two groups.

You say you are convinced that I am not scum. There's only one other option.
----

In other news, with deadline approaching, I'd still prefer to lynch Jin, but I'd be willing to vote ArcAngel as well. I'm not really feeling that strongly that she's scum, but I'm not feeling that she's very townish either and she's on the lynchable part of the chart.

[Jaack]

Well first an updates/reposted chart

	ZZZX
Dunhallym		Dunhallym
ProHawk	O		ProHawk
Tenshii	O	O		Tenshii
Jin/ssbm	O				Jin/ssbm
Gamma	O		O		O	Gamma
AA9/SS				O		O	AA9/SS
Jaack		O	O	O		O

As for important stuff

SS catch-up looks pretty thorough for a slot that was in danger of getting lynched. I don't necessarily agree with everything in it, but it doesn't look like a scum replacement. ProHawk and Tenshii are relatively undiscussed players and don't make sense as scum targets at this point. Unless he's partners with Jin/ssbm, I'd expect scum SS to go after that slot since its the only other one that looks lynchable at this point.

As for his actual reads, I'm not really feeling scum from ProHawk. I can kinda see scum in Tenshii, but I'm not feeling it as strongly as with Jin/ssbm (sorry you had to replace into this slot ssbm).

[Jaack]

I don't think it's worth putting any stock at all into whether someone's unpicks were repeated at all. It's more likely than not that we'd get some repeats and furthermore it had been a point of discussion that the only way scum could gain any advantage from lying about their unpicks was to try and get repeats.

SS is also right to say that the relative advantage of doubling up someone else's pick for scum is small.

Basing probabilities around that doesn't make sense compared to probabilities bases around the actually possible scumteams, which is raw, incorruptible data.

Overall, ssbm has done little to shake my scumread of that slot. Lots of effort but the initial focus on defending his predecessor as opposed to scumhunting strikes me as more likely to come from scum than town. Furthermore I don't really like the defense. A point-by-point case why -

I said the way you attacked, not your vote, was the unfair part. As for the defensive/weird post in question, if you compare Jaack's post to Jin's they're definitely both defensive but in different ways. Jaack is defending why he chose to vote Jin. It looks "weird" to Jin I think because he's providing a lot of justification for a vote that Jin probably thinks he doesn't deserve just because he's been placed into the pool of the 3 most optimal lynches in the game. Jin gets defensive in the sense of the word that you would normally think of in his post. It's a subtle difference but if you reread, it's there. I think what Jaack was trying to do was give Jin a lot to reply to because like Jaack said, Jin was a starting point and he would have wanted Jin to start contributing to the discussion so he could either rule Jin out or decide to make a push on him.

Jaack's note - ssbm quotes my 92 and Jin's post 93 here, describing them both as 'defensive,' but in the interest of space I'm excluding them

Now I don't like how ssbm equalizes my post with Jin's post by describing both equally as defensive.

First of all, the only part of my post 92 that could be considered defensive is in response to dunhallym and not concerning Jin. But I also resent the implication that I was being defensive here. I was responding to concerns that that dunhallym had presented. I didn't immediately start attacking her because she showed the slightest dissent from my thoughts.

Jin meanwhile began by denying that what I said he did actually happened (the walking back bit) then, once I pushed him further with this, he brushed it off as NAI in 104. Note that this only came after Gamma called Jin's play NAI in 102.

Jin's primary concern wasn't what I was thinking, it was that I was scumreading him. That is a scum mindset.

Moving along, ssbm starts talking about ProHawk's push on jin. I'm not all that interested in this section of ssbm's post except to say I don't think any of ProHawk's questions or anything were 'unfair'. The one thing that did stand out to me from this section is this:

This is sort of a loaded question. The only player behaving scummy to this point is PH, and Jin is under fire for voting someone who suspected him in the first place. He would be scared to admit that PH is his scum read in this situation.

This looks a lot like excuse making as to why Jin wasn't scumhunting. In fact, I'd expect town on the chopping block to be more expressive with their reads - they have less to lose when their are already widely scumread.

Here are the signs that were present that Jin was preparing to scumhunt:

Quotes of posts 151, 164, 117, and 122

And this doesn't really mean anything.

Preparing to scumhunt

? Jin talked about how he couldn't do anything because he was afraid of tunnelling me (this is off memory but I'm pretty sure that's the general gist of what he said). But he made no real effort to push me or lynch me or anything. It didn't look like he had a scumread on me at all because he seemed completely lackadaisical as to what I was doing.

All in all, I'll freely admit that I'd probably scumread any hard defense that someone would give to their predecessor, since I think it's more likely to come from scum than town, but this defense is notably scummy since it kind of fails to defend the stuff people (or at least I) was scumreading Jin for in the first place. Which is to say his deflections and lack of pro-activity.

[Jaack]

The intention of my defense of Jin is to demonstrate that I scumread ProHawk for the way he was pushing Jin. My impression of AA slot is that they were confused by a language barrier, so I'm not seeing the same summoners in her posts that others were. I think Jaack you should reread my post more closely before you assume that I was saying that your 92 and Jin's 93 were equally defensive, or even defensive in the same sense of the word. I was referring to the way you justified voting Jin instead of AA. I don't think what you did was AI, just a play style difference between us. If I was town in your slot I wouldn't tell Jin why I was voting him so early in the game. There's no need to justify votes at that stage imo. Like I said, just a play style difference though. Just on break at work but I'll get back to you about the rest in a bit

You grouped my post and jin's post together calling them both defensive. Why would I assume that you aren't equating them in some way.

And if it's just playstyle differences, then why bring it up in the first place?

Wait, you're thinking my defense is more scummy because I'm

not

defending scummy play? I think I've tried to explain why I think he was deflecting and not being proactive in my wallpost about PH, but I wouldn't condone the way Jin played.

Yes, you're defending stuff that didn't need to be defended. The fact that you felt the need to offer all of those justifications for Jin's play (all while saying you think he was playing poorly) leads me to believe you know his posts were scumposts and your trying to make up for them.

As for your plan, I'm not exactly getting how its useful at all. If you flip town (doubtful) and we assume these two other people are town for no reason, and then assume I'm town because I am town, then Tenshii has to be scum? Okay?

[Jaack]

@All except ssbm and Something_Smart: what do you think of the townblock idea?
I personally am not in favor of it.

I am not a fan either.

I mean everyone seems to be townreading me and it's unlikely that gamma is scum based purely on setup spec, but there's no one else who really makes sense to exclude from the lynchpool based on being townread.

Based on the chart, the next two candidates would be tenshii and zzzx, but there are enough tenshii scumreads going around to exclude him, and zzzx hasn't dome nearly enough to warrant wide townreads.

A townblock of two isn't that useful.

[Jaack]

Update Chart Action Activate

	ZZZX
Dunhallym		Dunhallym
ProHawk	O		ProHawk
Tenshii	O	O		Tenshii
Jin/ssbm	O	O	O	O	Jin/ssbm
Gamma	O		O		O	Gamma
AA9/SS				O	O	O	AA9/SS
Jaack		O	O	O	O	O

Remaining Possible Scumteams:
ZZZX+Dunhallym
ZZZX+Something_Smart
ZZZX+Jaack
Dunhallym+ProHawk
Dunhallym+Gamma Emerald
Dunhallym+Something_Smart
ProHawk+Tenshii
ProHawk+Something_Smart
Tenshii+Gamma Emerald
Something_Smart+Jaack

Total Scumteams Possible
ZZZX=3
Dunhallym=4
ProHawk=3
Tenshii=2
Gamma Emerald=2
Something_Smart=4
Jaack=2

(Analysis in next post)

[Jaack]

Well as surprising as that flip is to me, it does do a decent job at clearing out some possibilities.

That being said, I still don't see an easy solution.

From my perspective, there is a 50% chance that Dunhallym is scum which goes against my read there, but I guess I have to take that into account when looking for scum today.

I have a few other ideas but I want some more information first.

Let's start here

@tenshii - Are you still scumreading ProHawk?

[Jaack]

No not atm. Just kinda paranoid he shifted from a scumread to a townread on me after I townread him but other than that I feel okay on townreading him. Are you scumreading ProHawk?

I am not scumreading ProHawk. Just doing some due diligence.

I don't understand how you got that.

There are 10 remaining possible scumteams from an agnostic perspective, but excluding the two that include me (because I know I'm town) leaves me with eight to consider. Four of those contain Dunhallym.

[Jaack]

Well I wanted some other people to add more, but waiting is lame.

The math leads me to believe Dunhallym is simply the best lynch. The odds are good and I think that SS's points in 322 are good enough that my townread there has faded. But I'm not locked in there.

Looking at the rest of the chart in case Dunhallym is town, that leaves the following pairs

ZZZX+SS

ZZZX has been a non-entity and thus difficult to gauge in terms of pairs. No lean here.

ZZZX+Jaack

I'm town

ProHawk+Tenshii

This looks pretty possible. In fact, I think it's the most likely single pair. Both players initially scumread eachother but have now faded those into townreads. Bussing your partner is especially bad in this setup, which is why neither could maintain those scumreads.

ProHawk+SS

Some similar feels to ProHwak+Tenshii, but SS's scumread on ProHawk seemed a lot more serious and genuine than either of the previous two.

Tenshii+Gamma Emerald

Eh, this feels unlikely to me, mostly because Gamma has discussed lynching Dunhallym to confirm himself to Tenshii. But it's not out of the question.

Something_Smart+Jaack

I'm Town

I think we need to lynch at least one of Tenshii and ProHawk either D2 or D3 just to clear up that pairing because I think there's a lot of evidence supporting it. But the math points pretty heavily towards Dunhallym. I could lynch anyone of those three tbh.

[Jaack]

I feel like most of his posts have been pretty town.

I also think his tenativeness (is that a word?) with the ssbm lynch is more likely to come from town than scum. He was the alternate option (or at least arcangel had been, and there really was no counterwagon).

[Jaack]

@Jaack, two questions for you:
what are your current thoughts on ZZZX? I agree that his absence makes it hard to gauge for relationships but you don't give an opinion on the player?
Since you think that Gamma/Tenshii is unlikely, why do you put Tenshii on the same level as Prohawk and me for today's lynch?

ZZZX? His early thoughts were meh. His later posts were vacant of content. I don't really have a stong opinion there.

As for Tenshii, I guess it probably makes more sense to lynch ProHawk if Tenshii seems like the best lynch simply because ProHawk is in more scumteams, but my primary interest in lynching them is because I think that they make solid sense as a pair.

[Jaack]

You said the Gamma/Tenshii pair was unlikely because

Eh, this feels unlikely to me, mostly because Gamma has discussed lynching Dunhallym to confirm himself to Tenshii. But it's not out of the question.

can you point to me where you saw this discussion because I rapidly ISOed Gamma and can't find it.

I just checked I guess I misremembered. But my read still stands because Gamma spent an awful lot of time talking about confirming Tenshii and other such stuff. I feel that seems unlikely to come from a scumpair.

[Jaack]

VOTE: ProHawk

I think I want this today.

[Jaack]

Inactivity is killing this game.
Are you all having finals?

@Jaack are you short on time or are you deliberately keeping quiet to observe? And if the latter do you plan on giving thoughts/explaining things later on?

Combination of both. I've been wanting to see some more from a few players in their natural habitat, but no one seems to want to oblige me.

If you're wondering about my ProHawk, it just that I think that Tenshii-ProHawk pair is too likely to ignore at this point, and ProHawk is more likely to independently be scum.

[Jaack]

If you're wondering about my ProHawk, it just that I think that Tenshii-ProHawk pair is too likely to ignore at this point, and ProHawk is more likely to independently be scum.

Moar Please? All I can see is "I think Tenshii is scum, and ProHawk and Tenshii pair is the most likely combo so I am going to flip ProHawk first??"

I think that the pair of you and Tenshii is the most likely pair, and I believe I have already explained this.

Tenshii's only other possible scumpartner is Gamma, which isn't a pair that makes much sense to me.

You could be paired with SS or Dunhallym. Neither of these stick out to me as notably more likely than the average pair, but neither looks paticularly impossible.

PEdit for Dunhallym-

Independent of the chart my town to scum list would look something like
Something_Smart
Gamma
Dunhallym
ZZZX
ProHawk
Tenshii

I'm not sure if the last question is an everyone question or a gamma only question, but I'll answer it anyway.

Naming your partner in a scumpair is a relatively riskier move than not naming them. It probably makes them less likely to get lynched but should they get lynched, you'll have unintentionally confirmed someone as town. I think the net result is that it doesn't end up mattering much, but I can see scum taking a first look and assuming its beneficial.

[Jaack]

EBWOP: You said at the beginning of the day that you "didn't scumread Prohawk".
"" in a wrong position.

I believe that was 317 you were referring to?

Well it's true I wasn't scumreading ProHawk at that time, but by that point I was plenty aware of the Tenshii-ProHawk connection and wanted to get a bit more evidence before heading in that direction. I didn't want to put them on alert before I was ready so I worded my ProHawk read as friendly as possible.

Of course they, like pretty much everyone else, were too absent for me to get much from observing.

So I say again, you are wanting to lynch me because you think that Tenshii is the best lynch, but if he is the best lynch the only pair that you seem to feel is plausible is a ProHawk-Tenshii, so you want to lynch me because I have a higher probability of being scum based on "math". Even though that "math" led you to believe that Dunhallym is simply the best lynch...

Math independently makes Dunhallym the best lynch. My reads independently make Tenshii the best lynch.

Combining both makes you the best lynch.

If I'm scumreading Tenshii, I have to be aware that his only possible partners are you and Gamma.

I don't think Gamma+Tenshii makes much sense based on Gamma's behavoir.

Which leads me to the conclusion that if Tenshii is scum, you are almost certainly scum as well. However, there is a possibility that you are scum outside of being Tenshii's partner, which makes you the better lynch.

To put it another way, here are the possible four scenarios:
1. ScumProHawk and ScumTenshii
2. ScumProHawk and TownTenshii
3. TownProHawk and ScumTenshii
4. TownProHawk and TownTenshii

I think scenario 1 is most likely. In that case, lynch order doesn't matter.
I think scenario 3 is close to impossible, but if it were true it would be best to lynch Tenshii first

In scenario 2, your lynch is obviously better to come first.

In scenario 4, it is also better to lynch you first because it eliminates more possible pairings.

[Jaack]

So when I flip town, are you going to lynch Tenshii next and claim the game is won? Or are you going to flip Gamma before Tenshii?

Neither because, as I've said multiple times, I don't think Tenshii and Gamma is a likely pair at all.

That being said, this leading question stuff is making me more confident in who's the scumteam

[Jaack]

I don't normally like lynching null slots unless I have a good number of decently strong townreads, which I don't have.

Also, it feels like a lazy mislynch waiting to happen.

[Jaack]

@Jaack

to add to my previous question can you formalize the case on Prohawk and Prohawk/Tenshii?

For prohawk its mostly a refinement of my thoughts that change between the start of the day and my vote. I think his most recent stuff is a little more directly scum, but nothing really changed aside from me thinking tenshii-prohawk made a lot of sense.

I'd like to be able to isolate my reads in a vacuum but they're always going to be affected by the information I have.

I'm on mobile, so I'm not going to 'formalize' my case this moment, but the gist of it is that they scumread each other right from the get go but have slowly devolved into town reads overtime. In a game where bussing is bad, that's kinda what I'd expect from scum.

[Jaack]

Hey cool it's Blackvoid

Too bad you're scum.

[Jaack]

In a game where bussing is bad, that's kinda what I'd expect from scum.

This is coming from a guy whose reads completely avoid him voting for his partners.

I was willing to vote ArcAngel D1, but I've been impressed with Something_Smart, and do not think he is scum.

I have literally no reason to vote for ZZZX. Your case is that he started strong but has done nothing since. Okay. Why is that more likely to come from scum than town? I could see a case if he were just trying to skate by, but I don't see that. It looks like someone who is legitimately just not here. Which is neither scummy nor townie.

I don't see any reason to vote for him other than absense. If I'm going to vote someone based on that little of information, I'd be better off mindlessly voting based on the chart.

But seriously, the way you've started throwing shade at everything I say without building a real case against me isn't helping you.
-----

Now I'll make the PwoHawk+Tenshii case. Well I guess it's BlackVoid now.

Exhibit A - Tenshii votes ProHawk (128)
Tenshii doesn't like ProHawk's reasons for voting Jin. Okay.

At this point ProHawk had not votes on him, thus not in danger of being lynched.

The two of them then discuss random stuff for a bit. I don't really feel like tenshii is trying all that hard to push the ProHawk scumread and it feels more like their trying to come up with reasons to townread each other.

By 181 Tenshii is now slightly townreading ProHawk because he liked the responses he got? This seems pretty weak since they didn't really talk much about ProHawk's jin read, they talked about Gamma.

And then there's 301. ProHawk asks SSBM why not push Gamma over Tenshii? That seems like a strange question. While ProHawk had expressed some interest in GammaScum earlier in the game by this point he was townreading Gamma. ANd it's pretty clear why ssbm was voting Tenshii over gamma - because the scenario he was describing in 284 had Tenshii as confirmed scum.

But the big piece of the puzzle that I just realized remaking this case.

Contrary to my memory, ProHawk was never scumreading Tenshii.

I could have sworn that this was true and I've been playing the last couple of days as if this were true, but to my surprise, my iso'ing failed to find this. ProHawk was a bit snarky with Tenshii in the early goings, but never really expressed anything other than a townread here.

"But Jaack, doesn't this blow apart your case?"

On one hand, yeah, it weakens what was the heart of my case originally.

On the other hand... Why hasn't ProHawk called me out on this? He's pretty much tried to tongue-tie me over every post I've made since I initially voted for him, but he's never mentioned this, which is right at the heart of what I've been saying about him being scum.

Most town are quite aware of their read history, especially their scumread history. I just can't come up with a reason that ProHawk would not bring this up if he was town and acutally scumreading me. The only explination I can come up with is that I was right on the money and ProHawk decided it would be better to try and discredit me.

So yes, this is the lynch that I want.

[Jaack]

I'm on mobile, so I'm not going to 'formalize' my case this moment, but the gist of it is that they scumread each other right from the get go but have slowly devolved into town reads overtime. In a game where bussing is bad, that's kinda what I'd expect from scum.

I agree that bussing is bad. I think you should look at Prohawk/Dunhallym interactions. Each has the other as town for inexplicable reasons. Dun says that Prohawk is town but that there is a potential link to my slot. In other words, she doesn't want to lynch Prohawk, but if he does get lynched, she's setting up to go after me next. Their early play also has a lot of the distancing vibes that I tend to look for from scum.

I don't know what Tenshii was thinking when he townread Prohawk but it almost seems like when Tenshii backed off, Prohawk did too. This is beneficial for him as scum to townread a townie a backed off of him precisely

for

backing off of him.

The interaction basically went like this:
Tenshii: <backs off>
Prohawk: "oh look, he backed off despite me being an easy mislynch, he must be town!"

That's not a scum to scum interaction. That's scum being relieved that town second-guessed their read on him.

Jaack, look - I get why you might think Prohawk and Tenshii were scum but I like to think I'm fairly readable guy as town. We worked together decently well in mhsmith's game. I think you are town and right about Prohawk, work with me here.

I'm definitely willing to consider Dunhallym after ProHawk scumflip. I sitll think that Tenshii's interactions with ProHawk look bad, but I have an open mind.

[Jaack]

Look, here is Jaacks plan for the blind.

He is scum-reading Tenshii. He can't just jump from his town-read on me to scum-read without anything to show for it, but he NEEDS to mis-lynch me in order to get the matrix to align for an easy win. So what does he do? He creates these scum-team scenarios from the matrix to lynch someone who ISN'T Tenshii, BUT BUT is "obviously" Tenshii's partner because he knows Tenshii will flip town. And of course Prohawk and Tenshii did this super scummy connection which later he would say didnt really happen but then Prohawk is MORE scum because this thing that didn't really happen but did really kinda happen Prohawk didn't call me out on so he is SUPER scum.

Lynching Tenshii first does a few things.

1) Creates scrutiny on him for a bad push.
2) Eliminates his "scum-read" so then he has to find someone else to migrate to.

If he lynches Tenshii's "partner" first then... (and isn't it convenient that the matrix supports his decision to lynch before seeing if Tenshii doesn't end up being scum because look at those ODDS!!)

3) When Tenshii's partner flips town (which Jaack knows will happen), it leaves him open to Say whoops, I guess Prohawk wasn't really scum, dang, but Tenshii/BlackVoid is still scum so either...
a) Gamma by extension is scum and lynches him (endgame)

or
b) Tenshii is scum lets lynch him now (endgame)


THIS is why you can't scum-hunt off of someone without a flipped scum-card otherwise your hunting is flawed and you get crappy results. Or if you're scum, you are just stacking the deck which is EXACTLY what Jaack is doing.

OH

And if that's not enough for you, Jaaack doesn't bat ONE EYE that his SCUMREAD (And yes he is Still scum-reading Tenshii/BlackVoid or at least that's what he is presenting in the thread) is voting for his supposed "partner". THAT alone should tell you something.

This game can be so annoying and frustrating... all of these replacements are ridiculous. Please lynch me now.

And never never lynch Gamma, or Dunhallym... you could lynch BlackVoid not because he is scum though, just because he joined the darkside. Ok I feel better now.

Let's break this down.
I wasn't comfortable with Tenshii. On a quick reread I say that a pairing with you made sense.
I decided to go in that direction over lynching Dunhallym because I think dunhallym's high activity in a relatively dead game was beneficial.
You make more sense to lynch than Tenshii did. If you flip town (which I doubt) I really have no reason to suspect that slot because I don't think Tenshii/BlackVoid is partners with Gamma. I've gone on record saying I probably won't want to lynch that slot if you flip town, multiple times at this point I'm pretty sure, so the fact that you claim this is part of my master plan is pretty innaccurate.

ANd your right, I'm not batting an eye that BlackVoid is voring you. Part of my reason for voting you over Tenshii/BlackVoid was that you could still have other partners. When you flip scum, town will have two chances to lynch your partner from [dunhallym, BV, SS].

And normally I'm against pre-flip associatives, but in this setup it makes more sense. You can rule out a lot of partners right from the get go, so there's less of a chance your going down an incorrect rabbit hill.

Finally, the way you've reacted to my vote by trying to discredit everything I say as opposed to responding to what I'm saying pushes you further into scum territory. You look desperate to make me look scummy, which I think is more likely to come from scum hoping for a miracle than town hoping for one.

[Jaack]

Don't be mad bro

I found scum, how can I be mad?

[Jaack]

Because I foiled your plan.

So let me get this straight.

You are saying that I'm scum, planning to mislynch you and then push a BlackVoid (or Gamma I guess) lynch through D3.

Let's break down the many ways which this is wrong.

1. I'm not scum.
2. I've gone on record multiple times saying I don't think the Tenshii/BV + Gamma lynch makes sense and I've explained why I think that. In fact my disbelief in that pairing is one of the things that lead me to scrutinize you further.
3. If I were scum, that is a blatantly terrible plan. Do you think anyone would be willing to listen to me push a single scumpair D3 after I lead two mislynches? Especially after I made arguments against that specific scumpair previously? Come on.

[Jaack]

How am I not dead guys.

[Jaack]

I'm leaning Dunhallym right now tbh.

The more I thought about it, the more I felt that ProHawk's attitude toward me felt like scum caught for the wrong reasons.

Two more points of interest:

1. Dunhallym and ProHawk had a minor bit of tnesion between them early game regarding whether unpicks should be announced immediately or not. A reread makes it feel a little like scum theatre.

2. Dunhallym seemed receptive to my scumread of Tenshii and receptive to my pairing of Tenshii+ProHawk, but didn't seem at all interested in ProHawk alone. It would be very beneficial for a scumteam of Dunhallym+ProHawk to let me turbolynch Tenshii, 'clear' ProHawk, and take the blame for 2 mislynches.

I should reread SS to make sure I'm not overlooking anything there, but these are my feels right now.

[Jaack]

Question to all:

The primary reason why you've been townread is because you're scumhunting in the sense of asking questions yet with all of the questions you ask I don't see you drawing any conclusions.

Anyone have thoughts on this? And the exchange that followed in #360, #361 and #363? Is Dun's response frustrated townie or is that scum deflecting?

I think Dunhallym's response is genuinely frustrated, but she strikes me as a player that would be frustrated with low activity as either town or scum.

I haven't really had much of an issue with what Dunhallym has been doing this game, to be honest. It's just that at the end of the day yesterday, I felt like she really didn't want ProHawk to get lynched, but was trying to look like she wasn't defending him.

[Jaack]

Time to get back into this....

I'm feeling pretty good about Dunhallym being scum still. I still think my original feelings about her play relating to ProHawk are accurate, but the real kicker on a reread of D3 is this:

One last thing before I stop with the defense part: If I'd been Prohawk's partner I'd have been more decisive. I'd either have cut the loss or made a hard push on someone else. Because from the start of the day the only real alternative to Prohawk was me.

One of my favorite scumtells is when someone overrates their own chance of getting lynched in retrospect. There was some level of interest in lynching basically anyone aside from me or Gamma in the early part of D2. Even if you were one of the more popular lynch choices early on (both SSmart and I were interested, don't remember if anyone else was) you it certainly wasn't down to you two from the start. In fact, for the first half of the day there was little interest in ProHawk at all.

[Jaack]

VOTE: Dunhallym

[Jaack]

I really have nothing to add at this point. I'm pretty sure the last scum is Dunhallym. In the unlikely even it isn't.... eh probably BV based on the Tenshii stuff from before. I don't see SSmart flipping scum.

[Jaack]

The early part of day 2 was pretty inactive. You said you wanted to lynch between {Prohawk, Tenshii, me}. Smart pushed me. Prohawk gave his list of "most likely to be scum" which included me though that one would not have been a problem for scumMe; then Tenshii also voted me. ZZZW was awol and Gamma not much better. So my lynch appeared a likely possibility, which I would have taken into account in my interactions with my partner. Doubly so when the focus turned to Prohawk. That's the point I was making. I was the most active player yet I didn't try to push anyone, because all of the time I was debating my issue about you, trying to sort it out and asking myself whether I should speak it aloud or keep it quiet and bring it up only if we mislynched and you were still alive on day 3. If I had been scum, don't you think I would have tried harder to push another lynch? Especially Tenshii as his lynch would have cleared the Prohawk-Tenshii case? Instead I pointed to you that lynching Tenshii didn't make sense from your POV. Not a very smart move for scumMe when that left me and Prohawk as your targets.

I'll agree that you as scum would benefit from a Tenshii lynch. Tenshii was town and quite lynchable. And while it's true you didn't push hard on Tenshii, you didn't seem to have a problem with me scumpairing Tenshii+ProHawk until I decided I'd rather lynch ProHawk first. All of the sudden I didn't have a case on ProHawk. But I didn't really have much of a case on Tenshii either - they were a package deal from my point of view until ProHawk scummed around after I voted him.

And your lack of pushing a lynch is exactly what I'd expect from you as scum going into D2. Your primary lynch target D1 was AA9/SSmart, but it was getting pretty painfully obvious that SSmart was town.

Your other options:
Tenshii - You didn't really push, but you didn't argue against even when the points against him weren't all that great
ZZZX - You tried to open up a lynch here subtly based primarily on PoE. But there just wasn't enough there for the more active part of town (me/SSmart) to latch onto
Jaack - You tried to open me up by getting 'paranoid' about me all of the sudden
Gamma - This lynch was unlikely because the chart was so kind to him

As scum you had to lynch either Tenshii or ZZZX and at least try to sew seeds of doubt in the universal townreads I was getting. And while you weren't blatantly doing any of these things, the arc of you actions D2 look like they were heading in this direction. Subtle pushes on ZZZX, letting town dig its own hole with Tenshii and suddenly getting 'paranoid' about me.

It was a good plan, but in the end it didn't line up.

[Jaack]

264 - I don't like this Dun's post at all. First off, telling ssbm that he needs to post non-probability based reads is ridiculous because while he did make a few probability arguments, he also made a really stellar post on why Prohawk was scum which Dun seemed to have glossed over. I also think the way she reacted to being called out as a Prohawk partner was a bit too cautious and hesitant and does re-affirm my belief that it was the right call. She keeps insisting that there doesn't necessarily have to be scum in herself, ssbm, and Smart which is true but she also ignores that ssbm's perspective betrayed a very townish and non-survival oriented strategy. It's the thing Smart picked up on but Dun didn't. She then committed to voting ssbm which I could see as her wanting to eliminate someone who nailed the scumteam via lynch.

That's the worst of your misrepresentation yet.
1) the post where I asked ssbm to give non probability based reads was not that one but #250, that is before ssbm had made his "stellar post" (261?) on Prohawk. And until that post, (nearly) all of his posts were probability based. In the post you mention I explained why I was asking him to do that and I stand by what I had said there: discussion of probabilities is something that's IMO very easy to fake as scum because it's neutral. The main issue as scum is that you cannot come up with unbiased reads, so you need to mimick them, but math is naturally unbiased. 2) you say that I glossed over his case on Prohawk. I explicitely say so in my post and say I'll look at it in details later. Something that has "escaped" you. 3) the reason I commited to vote, in addition to all the previous things that I had raised about Jin in the thread before, was that ssbm voted me for a weak connection to someone he thought was scum (and I didn't) when he had said previously that he thought I was town. Once again you are twisting things.
Can you expand on how my reaction to ssbm drawing links between me and Prohawk was "too cautious and hesitant"?

I think this is the thing that Dunhallym most wanted me to address?

I mean, I'm not sure I agree with BlackVoid's conclusions here but he doesn't look particularly scummy from this to me either.

[Jaack]

(I kinda feel like I'm beating a dead horse at this point, and I also kind of like how DUnhallym played, especially D1, but she's scum and I also have to make posts until someone hammers.)

Because if I had not been so focused on Jaack I would have seen how bad Prohawk’s last posts were; because Tenshii/Prohawk made a lot of sense. I said in 466 (I think) that I was oscillating between Tenshii/Prohawk and Jaack/Smart, so if you remove the one, only the other remains.

This narrative doesn't fit all that well into the game I've been reading. While you do bring up these pairings towards the end D2 when ProHawk's lynch was all but inevitible, it doesn't really fit with how you were playing.

You never really formalized your doubts about me. It was always paranoia. And I never really felt you were all that focused on me in particular, to the point that you would overlook what ProHawk was doing completely.

Furthermore, if you really were down to those two pairs, I don't think you would have been so insistent on me formalizing my case on ProHawk without talking about the pair. First of all, you didn't really seem concerned with me scumreading Tenshii, although I never really had very strong reasons outside of my concieved pairing of Tenshii+ProHawk. Secondly, if you really were down to those two, lynching ProHawk would have solved the game no matter the flip. If scum, you lynch Tenshii/BV, if town, then lynch me, because I would have spearheaded two different mislynches and made moderate amount of sense with both my possible partners (moreso SSmart than ZZZX, but still).

Unrelated fun fact - The best part of being confirmed town is being able to talk about scenarios where you are scum and no one gives you a hard time about it.

[Jaack]

But seriously, we have over 4 (real life) days left, however, it would be nice to finish this

Day

game

before the weekend.

Fixed it for you

[Jaack]

Seriously this is getting ridiculous. Jaack and ms Columbo are so set on me being scum that I'm not even sure they read me anymore (read seriously I mean). The town in smart/BV is also set on me being scum so just end this. This way you can really start focusing on looking for the real scum.
BV I'm not set on Smart town. I just think you make more sense. I know I'm getting lynched today so tbh I'm just tired of wasting time and energy for naught. Besides given my accuracy this game I'm not sure my opinion is worth much even after I flip town. Sorry if type town and feel I'm unfair to you.

Don't worry I've been reading your posts (sorry if this post doesn't make sense I'm on mobile and also somewhere between tipsy and hammered)

It's just that your scumread of bv seems like you're scum reading him because you're obligated to. The way you've been talking with him (since like 80% of the day ha's been yall talking) is like someone talking with conftown or at least a townread and not with someone who has a 50% chance of being scum and that you're currently scumreading.

I am significantly drunker than I previously thought.

But yeah, when I'm readin your posts I dot feel like your talking to scum. It seems too much like you're trying to appeal to be but it makes no sense for you to do that since he's scum from your pov and evendors if he is actually town than you should be appealing to me or column (did I speel that right?) because even if you are lynched it's whicheve r of us that scum leaves alive that's gonna decide this game if you are actually town which you probably aren't sorry

[Jaack]

It's five o clock soewhere.

[Jaack]

Okay now I'm very drunk but I wanna rant and I'm conftown so whatever.

I super respect how all three of dunhallym, bv, and ssmart have played so far, well I guess SSmarts d3 has been blah bit he still was pretty cool the first two days but anyway.

I respect how dunhallym has basically tried on her own to keep this game running. I mean of the original crew, only me and dunhallym and I guess prohawk didn't abandon and I kIndia wanna townread her for that but at the same time it makes way too much sense for her to be prohawks partner and even if I were to shift somewhere else on a whim there's basically no way I would vote for anyone other than her lylo.

Blackvoid after that one normal game and this game is probably my favorite mafia player and I kinda feel bad about how we lost that other game even if I was more right about the last scum but oh well if he is scum in this game than he's playing awesome replacing into a slot that was totally wrecked from the start and maybe winning. I don't like losing but I'm okay with losing to that especially when I had his partner and predecessor nailed.

SSmart was so obvtown at the end of D1 that he also deserves to win if he's scum or town I guess. I remember when I was in that micro he nodded and got scum killed like 3 pages in and then everyone else replaced so I got a town win for doing like nothing. So I kinda like him.

It's so annoying when your conftown and basically have nothing to do.

[Jaack]

Oh good I posted that in the right thread.

[Jaack]

The strongest of trolls.

GG Scum. You both played pretty well. Like I said in the dead thread, I think that the lack of overlaps in the unpicks really hurt you guys in the long run. There was too little room to hide.

If I were to suggest one change to the setup, I think it might make more sense to skip N2 as opposed to N1. Either that or maybe give scum the option to kill either N1 or N2, but not both.

[Jaack]

Lol, I got played, sorry Smart and the rest.

@BV - No need to continue the charade with the win. That was cheap.

I'm not sure if this is facecious, but you might wanna check the spoiler.

[Jaack]

Yeah, I feel particularly bad about the Dun lynch. I wrote off SSmart too quickly and when BV started doing his obvtown thing at the end of D2, I worked myself into the one tunnel left.

[Jaack]

So when I flip town, are you going to lynch Tenshii next and claim the game is won? Or are you going to flip Gamma before Tenshii?

Don't have a lot of time, but this is the one I scum read the strongest.

I felt like these questions were trying to make me look scummy, not trying to discern my thoughts or alignment. Since the tenshii connection was false, you probably could have talked me out of it and into a dunhallym lynch.

[Jaack]

It's a balance of risk. If your confident you can survive, push the possible scum partner. If you're not, push from the rest.

I think in this particular case, dunhallym was the lynch you needed D2. The matrix made lynching Gamma and Tenshii non-starters and with ZZZX it just made way more sense to wait for a replacement anyway. Turn me around onto a dunhallym lynch D2, shoot Tenshii, and work on pairing me with SSmart for lylo. I think that was the path to victory. 1v1ing me could have worked out D2 I guess, but it'd put you in baaaad shape D3.

As is, I felt your approach to me just wasn't addressing my concerns, while at the same time I was never convinced you actually thought I was scum. The connections I was making between you and Tenshii weren't all that good in hindsight, but I ended up pointing out some of the errors myself (see 417). Since my reasons were wrong and I was posting stuff that I had misremembered, I was vulnerable but your case was too focused on making things that weren't scummy look scummy as opposed to highlighting my errors. I don't think lynching me was the best option D2, but it was doable, you just focused on the wrong things.