Star Wars Rogue One [GAME OVER]

[Infinity 324]

The question directed at cakez also feels quite fake

VOTE: zefiend

[Infinity 324]

Titus is town

[Infinity 324]

I'm going to policy lynch Infinity after Mastin and Titus flip scum.

Good luck with that, cowboy. Both parts, actually.

[Infinity 324]

Scum is in {AJ, aero, pere, TWIE, molla}

Mastin convinced me that molla is possible but not that's it's likely.

Have to ISO cakez but I doubt he's in there.

[Infinity 324]

That sentence contains one correct statement and one incorrect statement

[Infinity 324]

Scum is in {AJ, aero, pere, TWIE, molla}

Mastin convinced me that molla is possible but not that's it's likely.

Have to ISO cakez but I doubt he's in there.

You're a townread because of Pine's treatment of you, not because your reads are right.

Try better, please.

No. If you'd like to discuss any read in particular I'd be happy to. But I'm not gonna say "gosh darn you're right, my reads are shit" just because you say so.

[Infinity 324]

As long winded as she is she could have done so and I don't think she ever did wich I think is sketchy as fuck.

Nero, come on. You have to admit there have been a little more than a few points in your mafia career where you didn't give a case.

[Infinity 324]

Putting aside the argument about you, mastin not giving specifics is NAI

[Infinity 324]

With aj, I don't like how he talked about being a better scumhunter on later days but hasn't really done any of that, instead he's largely defended himself and posted fluff today. I also didn't like his reaction to the heartless vote.

With aero, it's partly that he caught up and then disappeared, partly zefiend's catchup which I find very scummy, and partly trusting mastin.

[Infinity 324]

What did the Rogue Crew or whatever do night1?

What did they do night2?

N1 heartless gave a vig shot to someone who shot kling N2

N2 heartless gave someone an ability to be used N3

[Infinity 324]

TWIE, you don't need to argue with anyone's random scumteam theory that may or may not make any sense. You do need to find who scum is. Please and thank you.

[Infinity 324]

What's that supposed to mean

[Infinity 324]

Like you haven't even voted anyone. Neither have a lot of people tbh

[Infinity 324]

With aj, I don't like how he talked about being a better scumhunter on later days but hasn't really done any of that, instead he's largely defended himself and posted fluff today. I also didn't like his reaction to the heartless vote.

As an objective veiwpoint, he has been posting his reads and how he reached them.

I mean, not very many of them.

As for fluff, you sound like Pine

Gin mentioned this once without a push and that's it, there's no reason why that couldn't be shade on a buddy.

Also, Pine is trying to set him up to be the next lynch:

Alban, whats your opinion on the cakez wagon and do you think AJ is the better lynch or no?

Given that I think cakez is most likely town atm, this is not very convincing. I'm not sure about the context, but I think it's definitely plausible that scum would suggest their buddy as a possible wagon.

With aero, it's partly that he caught up and then disappeared, partly zefiend's catchup which I find very scummy, and partly trusting mastin.

He was replaced, so there is that.
I totally think Mastina is scum.
Aero's Pine interactions don't look like scum with scum. Aero should be neutral or hostile, not questioning or friendly. (1075-1076-1118-1119)

Mastin is town imo, also I could definitely see those interactions being distancing.

[Infinity 324]

As to your second point, I will admit that my initial read of the game placed mastina as Town because I didn't think her tone was being faked; that it would come from a bus. I gave her the benefit of the doubt. But if you and other vets in the game are saying this is within scum!mastina's range, I will also give you the benefit of the doubt. I absolutely hate being tricked by tone and my gut feeling is that mastina's was Town who just had a really good tell on Pine. If enough people tell me that my gut is being stupid, I'll stop relying on it.

This is so scum

[Infinity 324]

he has this really odd stance that Molla really was vanillaized when, if its a Pine/Molla team he wouldn't vanillaize his own buddy

Of course not, but holding a vanillize shot is a huge drawback.

[Infinity 324]

Nero knows I'm town he just disagrees with me on reads

[Infinity 324]

with absolutely zero reasoning.

That post was a bunch of empty analysis and busy questions

The question directed at cakez also feels quite fake

If you want me to elaborate say so (I'll probably do so tomorrow anyway). But don't say stuff that's not true

[Infinity 324]

Why should I not consider an Infinity lynch when he's defending scum?

I'm sorry, but this is such a shitty mentality.

"my reads are always right and people who disagree with them are suspicious"

Take a step back and look at how you're playing please, then maybe we can have some real interactions and discussions.

(this, by the way, is why I didn't vote you for rogue leader d1)

[Infinity 324]

Walk me through this. Reading anything with people not completely caught up is a pain in the ass and I want to say Aeroslot is scum (from earlier, helps explain why no counterwagons early) but unless you're referring to generic waffling mastin!read then I'm blind to the issue.

It's that his paranoia isn't genuine. Of course not all of his reads are just going to be determined by what other people think, and it doesn't make much sense for town with no particular reasons to scumread someone to get paranoid just because other people think that person is scum. Especially since it's only a couple people who think mastin is scum. I think he's setting up for the possible opportunity to lynch a strong town player because he can't resist it.

[Infinity 324]

I don't know if there's credence to that statement before the guilty result comes out.

So Pine has a role where he joins the crew when he wasn't invited. Like why would he not instantly become a leading hotbed of activity?

Yeah, the role sounds bad.

You're saying you think Pine and mastina would have planned the whole thing out from the time she was "scum-reading" him?

It's a hard pill for me to swallow.

Then spit that pill the fuck out and put it down the drain.

[Infinity 324]

Pine & Mastin interaction was zero. And most of the "Pine" was the other hydra head.
Mastina did not "sort" PineTornics, she already knew he was scum.
And he didn't fight it, no matter how often she repeated it over and over again, because no way did they want a 1v1 with each other.

Mastin was lazy/busy, pine was avoiding her. I think that explains it

[Infinity 324]

(this, by the way, is why I didn't vote you for rogue leader d1)

how is this any different other than you calling me town based off meta? You're disagreeing with me b/c you think your sig is correct and in most cases its is but thats only b/c there are more town players in any given game. I mean you wankers wasted a valuable vig shot on a shitty Kling slot so don't you dare talk to me about competence.

My point is, at least I'm willing to admit I could be wrong. You suspecting me solely for disagreeing with your scumreads when you don't know those scumreads are correct is frankly just not good play.

[Infinity 324]

Gin mentioned this once without a push and that's it, there's no reason why that couldn't be shade on a buddy.

Why bother when he could just ignore his buddy.

Because it's easiest to find scummy things from people you know are scum, and that makes it look like you're scumhunting. Also it might stand out if you just ignore someone.

Given that I think cakez is most likely town atm, this is not very convincing. I'm not sure about the context, but I think it's definitely plausible that scum would suggest their buddy as a possible wagon.

Why is Cake a townread?

Because his wagon grew quickly, died slowly, and was not CW'ed for forever and a day. Plus his thoughts were all over the place and seemed to be organic. (need to iso for specifics and verification on that second part)

[Infinity 324]

Walk me through this. Reading anything with people not completely caught up is a pain in the ass and I want to say Aeroslot is scum (from earlier, helps explain why no counterwagons early) but unless you're referring to generic waffling mastin!read then I'm blind to the issue.

It's that his paranoia isn't genuine. Of course not all of his reads are just going to be determined by what other people think, and it doesn't make much sense for town with no particular reasons to scumread someone to get paranoid just because other people think that person is scum. Especially since it's only a couple people who think mastin is scum. I think he's setting up for the possible opportunity to lynch a strong town player because he can't resist it.

What the fuck are you talking about?

I read the thread and gave my initial read on mastina. Since then, two people with more tenure have engaged me and I'm trying to walk through their perspective with them. Where did I ever say my read on mastina is now scum or I would consider lynching them?? I said that my position on town-reading mastina based on tone/unlikely to bus Pine was flexible with the proper input.

At this point your are being glaringly dense or scum grasping for straws. There is no way a town mindset concocts some sort of interpretation where my read of mastina flips 180 because of a brief conversation with two players.

I never said your mastin read flipped. I said you're setting up to flip it.

This reaction is beyond fake.

[Infinity 324]

FTR I do have a town read on you Infinity but why should I not consider you a possibly buddy when Titus flips scum?

Just because I'm townreading titus? That's so shallow though

[Infinity 324]

Nero, it's

people you think are scum

. Not scum. That was the entire point of my argument.

[Infinity 324]

So if I am hard town reading AJ and he were to flip scum you'd have no doubt in your mind that I couldn't be a scumbuddy?

It wouldn't make it any more likely. Scum don't tend to hard tr their partners that often ime

[Infinity 324]

But fine, suspect me all you want if mastin/titus flips scum. But

after they flip scum

. Not before. Doing it before is pre-flip association and is very arrogant.

[Infinity 324]

Pine & Mastin interaction was zero. And most of the "Pine" was the other hydra head.
Mastina did not "sort" PineTornics, she already knew he was scum.
And he didn't fight it, no matter how often she repeated it over and over again, because no way did they want a 1v1 with each other.

Mastin was lazy/busy, pine was avoiding her. I think that explains it

Why would Pine avoid her when he could fight her to push a mislynch on her?

Lazy/Busy mastin with 4th most posts in the game?

Who else is Mastin treating the exact same way?

-mastin just wasn't mislynchable at the time

-mastin was posting tons of catchup one-liners, so yes.

-...idk

[Infinity 324]

But after they flip scum. Not before.

I DON'T SUSPECT YOU NOW AND I NEVER HAVE YOU FUCKING MORON.

Your holier than thou attitude is just pissing me the fuck off.

I'm really sorry that you got annoyed by this, I wasn't try to insult you personally. I was trying to lay the groundwork so we can cooperate later on. I guess I misunderstood your position in 2167 and took it to mean you were considering lynching me now simply because I townread your scumreads, which is what I took issue with. Sorry about that.

[Infinity 324]

This wagon?
SirCakez [7] Aeronaut, alban, Nero Cain, BBMolla, PeregrineV (as 'lil Uzi), Infinity 324, Aj The Epic

Yes, that one

[Infinity 324]

I'm really sorry that you got annoyed by this, I wasn't try to insult you personally. I was trying to lay the groundwork so we can cooperate later on. I guess I misunderstood your position in 2167 and took it to mean you were considering lynching me now simply because I townread your scumreads, which is what I took issue with. Sorry about that.

fair enough. I'm sorry too. I can be...zealous in my efforts. So lets rap about your Titus and Mastin town reads.

Ok, but tomorrow. I'm tired as shit.

[Infinity 324]

I'm going to just full on claim JailKeeper right here. Character name Mon Mothma. I realize it's not the most productive case but I've too heavily hinted PR the last day to leave you hanging without a continuation to this and especially with infinity's pushing on why I'm interested in Rogue Crew mechanics, I'd like to just come clean with that. My wondering is if I could JK the Rogue leader and have him still distribute abilities. Fire never got back to me, which is making this kinda complicated. My two actions have been JK cakez both nights.

But also off of this I'm not completely confident with Molla's claim in any sense of the word since I am objectively more powerful than him and overlap his role heavily. But I don't know enough about setup to know if this is possible, which is part of my guiding reasons for claiming. Also, me being targeted as a semi-protect or blocker would probably help the town with some random WIFOM issues. I agree it's some really strange fucking gambit to not vanillize anyone (or have hit a VT and maybe saw no reaction...?) but as stated, I'm not entirely comfortable with his claim.

Forgot to respond to this, the claim looks town actually. Also I think both those roles can exist for town.

[Infinity 324]

zefiend, just because I didn't explain in a ton of detail right when you wanted me to what specifically bothered me about your catchup because I was tired doesn't make me scum. I even said you can ask me to elaborate if you wanted, but instead you just use it as a reason to call me scum.

I don't see how "scum townread player x but waffled on the read when other people disagreed to possibly set up to vote them" is as crazy as you make it sound. Scum!you probably couldn't even find any justifiable reasons of your own to scumread mastin, and sheeping or using obviously bad reasons would have issues of its own. I find it hard to believe that, as town, you would start to reconsider a confident townread after one person told you you should. There are a bunch of people saying mastin is town, why trust nero and pere over them?

Your reaction to all this is so overblown, and the fact that you think it's so obviously scummy that I didn't elaborate as much and you wanted me to and think it's so ridiculous that scum could set up to change their read is scummy in and of itself.

[Infinity 324]

I'll ISO cakez, go through my mastin and titus townreads, and talk about my issues with zefiend's catchup originally later today.

[Infinity 324]

Your "elaboration" was inventing a reason from my exchange with Nero -- which happened AFTER you originally called me out. You didn't have shit to begin with and you just reached for the first thing you could think of.

I never elaborated on the original reasons, you never even asked me to. I gave reasons and said I'd elaborate on them if you asked me, and then you just said they're vague so I must be scum. I mean seriously.

[Infinity 324]

You are focusing on my dialogue with Nero and Peregrine for the wrong reasons. They were particularly influential to me because they ENGAGED me on the exact points I was thinking mastina couldn't have bussed. Why would I NOT consider their opinion when they are saying the exact opposite?

Where did pere engage you? Of course you'd consider their opinion but you gave no specifics of your own about what worried you about mastin or what good points they made to make you think you might be wrong.

[Infinity 324]

misrepresentation. I like how you add in "possibly to set up to vote them" - this is blatant construction of a narrative that you have no idea about. Nero and Peregrine's disagreements simply caused me to reflect and reevaluate.

You might understand, though, when the town narrative makes little sense to me then I might start thinking about a scum narrative to explain it. Whatever you say at least one person will probably disagree with, so it doesn't make sense to reconsider your original statement just because others disagree.

Also, pere didn't even engage you as far as I can tell, and people who agreed with you wouldn't need to engage with you since they agree. This whole thing makes very little sense to me from town.

[Infinity 324]

Is this really a thing? I haven't looked at a ton of scum fakeclaims in themes/been scum in themes but how can you be so confident fire wouldn't just...save certain town roles for scum fakeclaims and not give them to town?

Again.
One, experience.
Two, because I know what's shitty.

And giving scum a fakeclaim of something they can be proven to not have?
That's shitty.

I'll look at fire's other theme games, but I don't like that the majority of your case on molla relies on this specific assumption about the setup.

Again, doctor, hider, BP, and cop are all fakeclaims that can't be proven false except sometimes by a tracker or by a follower.

[Infinity 324]

but holding a vanillize shot is a huge drawback.

It's two-shot.
You really think scum are going to waste a two-shot role N1, in a large theme?

That's like scum blindly using a 1-shot strongman in a mini theme, blindly, on a player who hasn't roleclaimed.

Sure it COULD happen but it'd be absolutely moronic to do. You save the shots until you have actual threats to remove.

But doing that then joining the rogue crew? Especially when he was already under pressure?

seems unlikely

[Infinity 324]

If you think we have a jailkeeper.
AND, on top of the jailkeeper, have a 1x rolestop.
YET ALONE, a JOAT with the 1x rolestop and two other potentially useful abilities.

You're an absolutely shitty balancer.

That's NOT a combination a sane moderator would make.

I...strongly disagree

I've seen stuff like doctor + joat w/1-shot roleblock in mini normals. In a large theme, there's really no reason why this is not possible.

[Infinity 324]

I've seen stuff like doctor + joat w/1-shot roleblock in mini normals. In a large theme, there's really no reason why this is not possible.

Roleblocker != rolestop.
They're opposites.

And if you MEANT doctor + Joat with a rolestop, what did the scum have to counter that?

Town roleblocker and doctor are meant to serve the same purpose, to block kills...I'll go look for specifics later but why does it matter what scum had to counter it? Doctor and JoaT isn't even enough power even if scum have nothing.

[Infinity 324]

Also we know the scum had a vanillizer, a really powerful role, and we don't know what else. Scum could have an incredibly stacked team for all we know.

[Infinity 324]

Maybe they change details. Maybe they omit details. Scum have an ability only scum would ever have? That might be absent from the town version of their claim. But they keep it as close to the theme material as possible. They match safeclaims as closely to the original as possible.

Can someone else verify this?

[Infinity 324]

I guess my main issue with molla being scum is why he didn't just claim VT. He'd still know he'd been vanillaized if he really was a VT because of the special power.

[Infinity 324]

I guess my main issue with molla being scum is why he didn't just claim VT. He'd still know he'd been vanillaized if he really was a VT because of the special power.

Scum!molla doesn't necessarily know if a VT gets a message

I'm pretty sure he would. You would have to know if suddenly you couldn't use your special ability anymore...

[Infinity 324]

No it's not confirmable unless someone rolecops him or smth

[Infinity 324]

I'm tired today again, tomorrow I'll put more effort into this game. For now I'll summarize my townreads on mastin and titus. Titus first:

For titus, I don't really see the motivation for playing dumbtown here. You know you will get at least some heat for it, and you will end up having very little influence on other people. As opposed to how I've seen her play scum, which is very manipulative, very logical, and very effective. I think a lot of times it's a guessing game whether people can correctly identify scum pretending to be dumb town, so playing that way is leaving a lot up to chance and giving up a lot of control. I don't think that is in titus's personality. This post I actually found very genuine:

If you fuckers are going to lynch Molla, that will make this game unplayable for me in most regards. I am bet my life levels of confident Molla is town, and I lack the time or inclination to read through mountains of garbage when the truth is obvious.

So tell me, who the fuck will take out the trash of Infinity and Nero along with them not playing Pants on Head level stupid? Yeah, I would vote that for Rogue Leader. Guess what, my townreads are also my dumb as fuck reads. So yeah, you are not getting my vote for Rogue Leader. No one is. I need to see intelligence and logical coherence, even if I disagree with it to vote Rogue Leader.

For one, it doesn't seem likely that scum would alienate their townreads by calling them all bad, and this at least means titus can't really be buddying molla. Also, the first paragraph reminds me of what I would feel in her position as town.

Also the interactions with pine point to her being town as pere has pointed out.

[Infinity 324]

TheWayItEnds, Drunken Piper, BBmolla,

This should not be a thing

[Infinity 324]

I guess I haven't emphasized this enough, but zefiend is scum and needs rope. He's my only confident scumread. I will go through his first post today and explain what was scummy about it today. If you're scumreading him, vote him. We need wagons to make this game go forward because right now it's stuck.

[Infinity 324]

You guys both ignored my reasons for tr'ing titus...

I don't see anything in nero's case that can't be explained by titus just not thinking clearly for one reason or another. Tunneling makes townies do very weird things, and I think that's what's happening to titus.

[Infinity 324]

like fuck man I really think you're town, mastina maybe not (?), but I really believe you are. can we talk about your worries about me and figure this shit out so we don't need to waste a lynch

I find this genuine btw. I'm really unsure on molla, I was gut scumreading him before and mastin explained why my reasons for townreading him were bad, but he's starting to feel town and I don't see a strong case against him other than his role.

[Infinity 324]

I do not like Nero's thoughts on mastina because his scumlean(?) read on her seems poorly or under-developed.

Oh, I didn't even notice at first but going from this to "oh yeah you might be right" without citing any specifics is very scummy

[Infinity 324]

OK, read the whole game. I have a lot of conflicting thoughts about many players, but at this point I am pretty confident that

@mastina

and

@Heartless

are town, so I would appreciate some help sorting through these thoughts and maybe pointing out things I missed.

I like

@Nero Cain

's points about Titus and I feel a lot of players are sleeping on her this game. However I do not like Nero's thoughts on mastina because his scumlean(?) read on her seems poorly or under-developed. I feel that mastina's defense against his concerns (re: the timeline of game events, and the motivations behind Pine and mastina's actions) was legitimate.

However, I also like

@Titus

' issues with Infinity. I do believe he has been opportunistic (hell, he even admitted as much D1) with respect to wagoning. His read on mastina also feels unnatural, propelled in part by a combination of paranoia and the general tendency of others (re: Nero & Heartless (at times)) to pressure her. On the other hand, I dislike the fact that Titus' scope and breadth of other players in the game is quite narrow. I would feel more comfortable with the slot if she attempted to engage others with more vigor.

I initially liked

@Infinity

's push to get the game rolling, so-to-speak, and that has always been a personal town-tell I use. I cannot definitively point to anything Infinity has pushed or pressured organically, but at the same time, he does ask beneficial questions and probe efficiently when things are "happening" in the thread. I feel uneasy about this slot, but not necessarily worried. Infinity, do you feel that Titus' game-long push on you is a non-issue?

I believe Heartless already asked this question, but

@DrunkenPiper

: if you tracked Pine to nacho N1, wouldn't you also have tracked him to BBmolla? If you didn't, isn't that confirmation that BBmolla is lying about being vanillaized? I don't know how Firebringer would resolve that but maybe you should ask him.

@SirCakez

: You asked me to specifically look at the Pine interactions. I noticed, while reading D1, that you continually regarded the Pine-wagon as a poor lynch. You and I both know that I have been burned by reading too heavily into something like that before (re: College Mafia, where you soft-defended scum on D1). The key difference this game, however, is that the scum in question has flipped earlier than 3-way LYLO, yet nobody else seems to be calling attention to these associations (besides Infinity's VCA). What exactly were you hoping I gleaned from analyzing the Pine interactions?

The LUV/Peregrine slot is actually pretty null for me and hopefully Peregrine will contribute more.

I am comfortable sheeping mastina on BBmolla -- his content is unsatisfactory, mastina pointed out a key logical fallacy (re: SirCakez--Aj the Epic D1 voting patterns) that seemed to get buried, and the gambit actually seems quite plausible.

I would also lynch Aj toDay for a collection of pinging behavior I recall from my reread. I would have to dig deeper and review to shore up that scumread, but for now I just wanted to get my initial thoughts out there.

This post just doesn't show a genuine attempt to evaluate people. A lot of the points he brought up are either things other people said or are very vague/waffly statements. Town would probably try to ask probing questions if they were unsure, or try to come to a conclusion on the game state. He likes nero's points on titus and likes titus's points on me. Ok, am I or is she, or are we both scum? He doesn't even try to answer these questions. In general he doesn't give a big picture view on the game, he doesn't even notice that he may have too many scumreads, he just say things about different players. The questions he asks seemed to be busy questions, the one to cakez doesn't seem to be alignment-indicative and the one to piper was already asked.

Not only that, he somehow suddenly dropped his scumreads on molla and AJ and his suspicions on titus just to scumread the people who are pushing him. Too much of an inconsistency to come from town imo. Also he went from not giving any big-picture opinions about the scumteam to claiming to know the entire 3-person scumteam. Yeah no. Rope.

[Infinity 324]

@fire Molla doesn't have 2 votes afaik

@TWIE, piper We really need your input and votes to get this game going.

[Infinity 324]

Either scum had to risk a broken situation occurring by holding one of their vanillaize shots, or whenever Pine flipped we'd get 3 vanillaized claims for two shots.

This is a good point actually. What do you think mastin?

Another issue I have with the molla!scum narrative is why pine would risk dying before using all his shots given the day1 wagon thing and him joining the rogue crew.

People need to engage the people they disagree with more.

[Infinity 324]

Hey anti

Why is molla town again

[Infinity 324]

The balance issues are fair. But why wouldn't molla gambit like that?

[Infinity 324]

Yo TWIE. Do shit.

[Infinity 324]

Do you literally not have reads or what

I mean I get being lazy but you can at least put down a vote

[Infinity 324]

How is trying too hard not scummy? What's the motivation for town to try overtly hard to look town?

There is no such thing as trying to hard. I'm always full tilt. You should know this by now. You also don't seem to be reassessing this claim in light of other conversations going on. I did quote and explain how I caught scum by post 30 before, and went too hard. I was town there. I only come with Full Tilt or IRL. Why are you repeating what is said?

There is definitely such a thing as trying too hard. It might be NAI for you though, thinking back on it.
But your other posting isn't giving me the town!Titus vibes I expect.

How do you like being a stormtrooper, Cakes?

If I was I would hate it, I hate being scum lol.

P-edit: Ya VCA is awful. Almost won scum the game in Walking Dead Season 1 Finale.

Yeah but pine didn't know about the guilty on n1.

[Infinity 324]

I don't see anything in nero's case that can't be explained by titus just not thinking clearly for one reason or another. Tunneling makes townies do very weird things, and I think that's what's happening to titus.

So me tunneling Titus makes her try to get cheap town cred from the Kling wagon?

No, titus tunneling me does. It makes her see everything I do as suspicious, and that included the kling wagon.

[Infinity 324]

this is a scum win so I think I'll just vote anyone that's not voting Titus.

Please don't be like this

[Infinity 324]

Oh, I didn't even notice at first but going from this to "oh yeah you might be right" without citing any specifics is very scummy

he did or atleast I did give reasons why I believed why I do and he changed his tune but then you and Titus are the little "deny it ever happened party"

What specifics did he cite?

He was like "I'm pretty sure mastin is town and nero's case on her is bad" and you gave your reasons, restating many of them and he's like "oh yeah you might be right" and he doesn't even say what caused him to rethink?

zefiend, what specifically that nero said made you reconsider your read on mastin?

[Infinity 324]

Another issue I have with the molla!scum narrative is why pine would risk dying before using all his shots given the day1 wagon thing and him joining the rogue crew.

HE HAD A ROLE THAT PUBLICLY OUTS HIM USING AN ANTI-TOWN ACTION. AS SOON AS HE USED IT THERE' BE HEAT ON HIM.

I mean, ok, yeah, there's a universe where Molla is scum with Pine and fakes being targeted for town cred and another universe where Molla is town and is turned into a vanilla. I think both are plausible. I don't really understand your thing that scum would intentionally wait a night for Pine to use his second vanila shot and risk being blind on n1.

I don't get exactly what you're saying here, but the first part is exactly my point. Since there'd be heat on pine, I'd expect him to use his vanillize n1 in order to avoid dying with unused shots.

[Infinity 324]

ok, so she's tunneling you and thinks you are scum. So when I ask her who was scum pushing the Kling wagon why does she say "I lack the data and interactions to know if there was scum as opposed to bullheaded pride."

instead of talking about how scummy you are and how you were the scum that was pushing the wagon?

I think she assumed it was clear she thought I was scum

What do you think of my (and I guess Cakez confirmed it) point that how in Street Fighter she tunneled Jackrito almost exclusively much like she did here?

I wasn't in that game

ok, so she's tunneling you and thinks you are scum. So when I ask her who was scum pushing the Kling wagon why does she say "I lack the data and interactions to know if there was scum as opposed to bullheaded pride."

instead of talking about how scummy you are and how you were the scum that was pushing the wagon?

like it seems like she is specifically leaving the door open so that she can hop on anyone from the Kling wagon and cite the "

THEY

were the scum that was pushing Kling"

Maybe, I didn't like that she didn't at least make a guess right away.

this is a scum win so I think I'll just vote anyone that's not voting Titus.

Please don't be like this

Why does this matter to you? I am voting your scum read. You should be overjoyed.

Because I want you to cooperate and help solve the game instead of sheeping. I don't like it when people just give up when other don't share their perspective.

I'd expect him to use his vanillize n1 in order to avoid dying with unused shots.

I see no reason to believe he didn't unless you think he can't use both actions in the same night.

Unless you think pine actually vanillized scum!molla, molla has to be town if pine used the shot

[Infinity 324]

I don't get exactly what you're saying here, but the first part is exactly my point. Since there'd be heat on pine

and if you agree that there'd be heat on Pine once he used his action why is my belief that Mastina would bus him so lol silly?

It's not silly, I just don't think mastin would draw so much attention to herself and act so confident in her reads when she knows she'll get lynched if she gets it wrong too many times.

[Infinity 324]

I wasn't in that game

ok and? Why does that matter?

I'm not gonna bother to read it anytime soon, sorry

[Infinity 324]

I think she assumed it was clear she thought I was scum

I don't think you shouldn't assume things. Let the words speak for themselves not what you think they mean/want them to mean.

You gotta make judgments sometimes though. I mean there's no way titus was leaving it open to change her read on me.

It is true that it's kinda weird titus used the preplanned thing to call klingon town when she didn't specify who the scum on the wagon were though.

[Infinity 324]

ok? I'm not asking you to read. I'm saying that we (Cakez and I) are presenting evidence from another game that makes me (and I guess him) think Titus is scum. So I'm not understanding why you not being in that game/not wanting to read has ANYTHING to do with anything.

I can't trust you on it if I don't see it for myself. I'll take it into consideration though

[Infinity 324]

Fair enough I guess. It's just hard for me to take into account meta that I don't know the specifics of. Was jack a widely townread player? Did she pretend to be looking for his buddies or did she just ignore everyone else? How did she interact with the other wagons that popped up? etc. Maybe you can help me with that.

[Infinity 324]

Unless you think pine actually vanillized scum!molla, molla has to be town if pine used the shot

and why exactly can't Pine have used his shot elsewhere and Molla is just lying?

Because the vanillized person would counterclaim

[Infinity 324]

can a player use more than 1 action in a night?

~Yes

so knowing that he could use both of his actions n1...does that change anything for you Infinity?

Actually, knowing he probably couldn't changes a lot tbh.

[Infinity 324]

Oh, he could use both. That's what I was assuming originally. I still think it's rather unlikely, but it's a possibility.

[Infinity 324]

BBMolla is conftown because of how the mod slipped Pine acted twice

Explain this?

[Infinity 324]

TWIE is conftown because of how Infinity treated him.

titus you're aware infinity is unflipped yeah?

Not to me. If i made Infinity's posts, I would be dead.

If you were actively scumhunting every slot, trying to engage with your townreads, getting people to compromise, and even bossing people around to get them to play better then no you would not be dead.

[Infinity 324]

But I'm glad you admitted you're treating me as if I'm confirmed scum

[Infinity 324]

and she's OMGUSing everyone scumreading her

she does that regardless of alignment. The delayed OMGUS venge vote on me is more telling of her alignment.

You keep saying this, but I don't see how it's scummy. Is it just the inconsistency?

[Infinity 324]

Zefiend is at L-2

[Infinity 324]

Ok titus, explain why you voted nero for voting you on d3 but not earlier.

[Infinity 324]

What do you think of her "oh hey guys I've been right all game!" (with the implied we should listen to her) but has yet to flip scum?

Hmm?

I don't remember her giving a read on pine. But it just seems like she's being arrogant. NAI.

[Infinity 324]

TWIE is likely scum actually. This is the second time he's questioned a townread on himself, he may be going for the easy towncred

The not having reads thing is very annoying but NAI I think

[Infinity 324]

The thing I don't understand is how he seems to be caught up and has a general understanding of what's going on...he just doesn't voice any opinions.

That part may be scummy

[Infinity 324]

you shits are sheeping me when zefiend flips town.

No, we're not. I'm not playing this game. You chose to vote him.

[Infinity 324]

I think one of {molla, cakez, mastin} is scum. Zefiend is another scum. The third is either TWIE or maybe titus or pere. Or there's only 2 scum.

That's why I'm only voting zefiend today, lol. Too many possibilities.

[Infinity 324]

I'm just going to sit back and let you and Heartless mislynch the whole town

ffs dude, get off your high horse. If you think we're wrong, explain why or try to convince people. But don't do this passive aggressive shit.

[Infinity 324]

Yes, people are wrong sometimes but that doesn't mean they should listen to other people who are also wrong sometimes. I'm trying to scumhunt, wait and see how it plays out before you do this drama shit.

[Infinity 324]

TWIE is likely scum actually. This is the second time he's questioned a townread on himself, he may be going for the easy towncred

The not having reads thing is very annoying but NAI I think

TWIE is likely scum actually. This is the second time he's questioned a townread on himself, he may be going for the easy towncred

The not having reads thing is very annoying but NAI I think

Yeah, I think he just has one of those "lets be useless" playstyles. He

could

be scum but its just a shot in the dark I think.

if you don't want to be called useless, stop being useless.

[Infinity 324]

Says the guy the thinks I'm town but wouldn't put in in the RK b/c you don't agree with my reads. That's no different than me not agreeing with your reads and realizing its futile to get scum lynched until you and Heartless mislynch a ton of folks.

I voted for rogue leader who I thought had good reads, you're contributing to a negative atmosphere. If you think me and heartless are wrong, fine. If you've given up trying to convince us, I'm even fine with that. But this is just a bad attitude and doesn't help anyone. You have no idea whether we'll mislynch a bunch of people. Wait and see.

[Infinity 324]

TWIE is likely scum actually. This is the second time he's questioned a townread on himself, he may be going for the easy towncred

The not having reads thing is very annoying but NAI I think

not that it matters but its the first time really.

and its because of the loosest conftown declaration ive ever seen.

You questioned mastin's read on you as well.

But fair enough

What are your reads on zefiend and titus

[Infinity 324]

i jokingly questioned mastins read on me.

i seriously questioned titus's

because mastins made sense and titus's did not.

Oh

One of the points I brought up against Mastina is...basically Mastina was arguing that the scum had no clue who was going to be in the crew. I countered her point that Heartless made it very fucking clear who they wanted in the crew. Yes, I get it it that town can miss things but I think its suspicious that she did. Maybe he thought it was a good point and changed his read...idk man.

Ok but the way he did it wasn't genuine. The way he said it made it seem like just the fact that you engaged him made him reconsider the read, which doesn't make sense.

The case on him is not waffling. It's lack of original opinions, lack of big-picture gamesolving and wild inconsistencies like dropping his scumreads on molla, AJ, and titus.

[Infinity 324]

I mean obviously I'm not 100% accurate and I realize that but I mean, I dunno. I think a Mastin/Titus/???? team makes so much sense.

I'm glad you admit that.

Mastin/titus is possible I guess, but it's just not the most likely possibility imo.

[Infinity 324]

Also zefiend became very confident after people started pushing him, not sure how that compares to your meta. But fine

[Infinity 324]

Hey TWIE, can you give 1 read? That's all I need. One.

[Infinity 324]

Its gut mostly. He was scum in in WWE Smackdown and I ended up skimming one of his scum games and he just seemed so confident. Here he's waffly and paranoid. I also felt like his "I spent hours reading this game!" felt p genuine. Maybe its ATE and its working on me.

thoughts on this?

Its fair. I don't know how to comment on your meta other than 2531

[Infinity 324]

I also felt like his "I spent hours reading this game!" felt p genuine. Maybe its ATE and its working on me.

I meant mostlt this part. I realize that its not impossible that we have two different interpretations but IDK he felt genuine to me, did he not to you?

Sure, it's probably more likely to come from town but I can ask see scum saying that.

[Infinity 324]

Hey TWIE, can you give 1 read? That's all I need. One.

im town.

I really do not understand why you can't scumhunt. You at least did better on the other days...

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: aj

[Infinity 324]

Wait

Isn't jk just a roleblock + doc?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: zefiend

[Infinity 324]

Wait

Isn't jk just a roleblock + doc?

yea

[Infinity 324]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jailkeeper

[Infinity 324]

it is my understanding the a JK, makes the "target" untargetable.
"no result" was not my result label.

Depends on the variant, the most common variant is doc+jk according to the wiki.

[Infinity 324]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jailkeeper

(DP reads this following..."A Jailkeeper that simultaneously blocks and protects their target is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, provided that any mutual blocking scenarios are planned for during review. Any role that receives results (such as Tracker or Watcher) but is blocked should receive a "no result" message, rather than told their target didn't go anywhere or nobody visited their target. A Jailkeeper cannot stop a Strongman from committing a kill.")

Did you get the result that cakez went somewhere? Otherwise I don't see how this is relevant. Even then, it's not confirmed depending on how fire resolves things

[Infinity 324]

Unless fire used the less common variant of jk, then that's possible with AJ blocking him. It's not a rolestop, it's just a doc+rb.

[Infinity 324]

Any role that receives results (such as Tracker or Watcher) but is blocked should receive a "no result" message, rather than told their target didn't go anywhere or nobody visited their target.

This part is only relevant for the role that gets blocked.

[Infinity 324]

What do you think about cakez, piper

And zefiend

[Infinity 324]

What are you not understanding about "laying all my initial thoughts on the table and getting a baseline to work from?" The post wasn't meant to explore in-depth evaluations on people. That is what I'm doing now.

How is the question to SirCakez not important? I feel like a lot of people are overlooking it. He explicitly asked me to look over people's interactions with Pine. When I did, I noticed that he (SirCakez) was defending Pine. Here's the posts I dug up (everything you see as "..." is extraneous content; I don't wanna make this post too long):

First of all, no you're not evaluating people in-depth right now and you never did. You just called 3 people scum that were voting you and dropped 2 other scumreads entirely. Not to mention you didn't even consider possible scumteams

Second of all, the question to cakez seems bad because, well, if you think the interactions with pine make him seem scummy, vote him. That doesn't mean pine interactions weren't a good thing to tell you to look for. With a flipped scum, interactions with that scum are one of the most important things. I don't see particular motivation for scum!cakez to ask that if his interactions with pine looked particularly bad; in fact, he'd have motivation not to ask it. But anyway telling you to look for pine interactions to help you figure things out makes sense regardless of his alignment and regardless of what those interactions are.

[Infinity 324]

I think one of {molla, cakez, mastin} is scum. Zefiend is another scum. The third is either TWIE or maybe titus or pere. Or there's only 2 scum.

That's why I'm only voting zefiend today, lol. Too many possibilities.

If you're going to make pre-flip associations like this, explain them.

If you think I'm scum who are my partners and why.

If you can't explain why they're scum without relying on me flipping scum, then your entire post right here is bullshit.

Ok, all you had to do is ask...

This is mainly a PoE list. Nero is town because he's playing very strongly to his town meta and I don't think he can fake this tone as scum. Heartless are town because they're putting in so much effort to solve the game and I haven't seen anything worrying from them. Also I agree with a lot of their reads. Piper is town because of the guilty on pine and because I've liked his thoughts throughout the game. AJ is town for his claim.

The leaves the players in the list there. You know why I think you're scum. I think either mastin is right on one of her scumreads or is scum herself, because of BoP. (The other one of molla/cakez should also be in the other group). Then I have TWIE who I have only a slight lean scum on, and my weak townreads pere and titus. LUV was null for me but I liked pere's catchup so far, and Titus's play doesn't make much sense to me as scum even though it seems like bad play.

Ok, that's where I'm at with this game.

[Infinity 324]

i jokingly questioned mastins read on me.

i seriously questioned titus's

because mastins made sense and titus's did not.

Oh

One of the points I brought up against Mastina is...basically Mastina was arguing that the scum had no clue who was going to be in the crew. I countered her point that Heartless made it very fucking clear who they wanted in the crew. Yes, I get it it that town can miss things but I think its suspicious that she did. Maybe he thought it was a good point and changed his read...idk man.

Ok but the way he did it wasn't genuine. The way he said it made it seem like just the fact that you engaged him made him reconsider the read, which doesn't make sense.

Just because you didn't read the conversation between Nero and I, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The case on him is not waffling. It's lack of original opinions, lack of big-picture gamesolving and wild inconsistencies like dropping his scumreads on molla, AJ, and titus.

More scum-framing here. You are basing this ALL on a catch-up post. What have I been doing since then if not explaining my progression? Oh yeah, defending against all the shit you're slinging here.

Molla -- not gonna sheep someone I think is scum now (mastina).
AJ --- this guy obviously claimed AFTER my post.
Titus --- never "scumread" her. I said things I liked and disliked about her slot. I can say she is town now.

You're trying to detract from my other content with a bullshit distraction case based on a single catch-up post. I think you're scum for it.

I read the conversation, and I did not see you give one

specific

thing nero said that made you change your view. This makes little sense to me from a town mindset. He restated may of the same reasons you had called "underdeveloped" before, I'd expect town!you to explain the points that made you reconsider because that's an important part of your thought process.

I guess my issue with you dropping your scumreads is not explaining where and why. When town gets new scumreads or drops old ones, they tend to reconsider their thoughts on the game state and say so in thread. You not doing that makes me think you're not thinking about the game state at all.

I'm not distracting from the rest of your content, that's bullshit. I didn't even lay out my original reasons for scumreading you until just now, and

you were calling me scum for not saying them

. I think I've explained well enough why the rest of your content is scummy to me.

[Infinity 324]

Town roleblocker and doctor are meant to serve the same purpose, to block kills...

The difference is, doctors are used defensively: it's not hard to predict who the scum are going to kill.

Roleblockers are used offensively: it is INCREDIBLY difficult to predict who the scum performing the nightkill would be, and it's impossible to clear town unless there's only one scum left. Plus, a roleblocker blocking a player isn't the most likely cause for a failed nightkill in most cases. Doctors, jailkeepers, and bulletproofs make up the backbone of failed scum NKs.

Ok fine. I once played in a mini normal with a full town doctor and a full town bodyguard. That was a long time ago, but still. More recently, I played in one with 2 night 2 doctors, all the PRs were night 2 in that game but still. I've played in one a JK and a 1-shot BP. All

mini normals

. My point is that it's 100% possible to have a jk and a 1-shot rolestop in a large theme. I can't believe you're trying to argue it's not...

[Infinity 324]

I guess my main issue with molla being scum is why he didn't just claim VT. He'd still know he'd been vanillaized if he really was a VT because of the special power.

Would he?

Like. Serious question.

How would he know?

Do WE even know?
All we have is HIS word on the subject.

It's nonsense to lose your ability and not know that you lost it. If VT's don't know when they get vanillaized, then there's no reason why anyone would.

[Infinity 324]

Abilities:
2 Shot Vanillizer- At night you can select a player to vanilize and they will lose all their powers

including special abilities.

[Infinity 324]

cake plz vote zefiend
mastin plz vote zefiend

I'm predicting SirCakez will refuse (or maybe he'll join briefly, but leave for some bullshit reason), because they are in fact scumbuddies.

The problem is, I can help you lynch either of them, yet you won't give me anything in return. You won't help me lynch BBMolla when they flip scum, and that's the only thing which can make me switch. If you're going to be pursuing town after you lynch scum, it's not worth it. It's only if you pursue scum after lynching scum that it's worth a vote.

I KNOW that if I lynch BBMolla, you will continue to go after zefiend, maybe considering SirCakez.
I know that if I lynch zefiend, you'll be quick to pursue some moronic mislynch.

Am I wrong?

Tell me that, when zefiend flips scum, you'd consider going after BBMolla. Tell that to me with a straight face, absolute 100% sincerity. Do that, and you'll get my vote there. Otherwise, I'm sorry. No matter how much zefiend may be scum, I simply cannot in good faith vote there.

Ok, nero cain.

But yes, I'm considering the possibility of scum!molla now in fact. Not sure about heartless, but if you convince me molla is scum I will vote there. Good enough?

[Infinity 324]

I quite literally wrote the fucking book on NOT bussin

Oh yeah I remember that

[Infinity 324]

Also, I don't feel the need to establish myself as town by lynching yet another scum. That won't stop idiots from scumreading me, and it won't give people who aren't scumreading me any more proof than what they already have. In short, it won't change how people view me at all, because they'll make excuses or because they already knew and didn't need proof.

Ftr, I fall into neither of these categories.

[Infinity 324]

But I think the game would benefit most from having more than one wagon on scum today.

Sure, but I don't really see that as likely rn. We barely have one wagon...

They start off questioning the guilty, trying to see where it comes from, what sort of validity it has, trying to see if it can be talked out of. And when they determine that it can't be, they vote the doomed scumbuddy.

That's a really crappy explanation of the concept, I need to go and explain exactly what I mean in more detail, but one of BBMolla's sins was that he did exactly that: he tried to argue against the Pine guilty, until he understood that it was not something which could be fought against. At that point, he sheepishly joined the wagon.

I think it depends. As scum if I saw a guilty on my partner, I sure as hell would be bussing right away. But you might be right on this point.

There's a reason I don't bus my scumbuddies.

It's because I can get away with being wrong on them.

^^ remember this guys

I think one of {molla, cakez, mastin} is scum. Zefiend is another scum.

Where you go wriong is assuming in only one scum. It's two. Is there anything in particular I can do (aside from casing Molla) which I can do to convince you it's BOTH of them, not just ONE of them?

That was another possibility I'm considering that I forgot to mention. I really do not want to go back and ISO cakez, so maybe I'll ISO you or you can give more reasons why he's scum too? That would be awesome.

I generally skim your posts because I hate your self applied restriction with a passion

Given molla;s apparent issue with people not talking to him, this is acout as close to a flat-out scumclaim as you're ever getting.

Don't really see it. I mean piper is the only person not talking in a post restriction, so if he's reading everyone else's posts then that makes sense...

You're funny when you're tired I think I

just

missed you since your last post was previewed in my first one. Hopefully we'll be on at the same time sometimes in the future. I'll go find the other reasons I was townreading molla.

[Infinity 324]

@mastin

like fuck man I really think you're town, mastina maybe not (?), but I really believe you are. can we talk about your worries about me and figure this shit out so we don't need to waste a lynch

I find this genuine btw.

Either scum had to risk a broken situation occurring by holding one of their vanillaize shots, or whenever Pine flipped we'd get 3 vanillaized claims for two shots.

This is a good point actually. What do you think mastin?

Another issue I have with the molla!scum narrative is why pine would risk dying before using all his shots given the day1 wagon thing and him joining the rogue crew.

Plus anti's issue of scum having too much power.

[Infinity 324]

Will say that my townread on cakez is fading. The reasons I was townreading him before seem weak now. But I don't see any huge reasons to scumread him either. He is different from order of the stick, a recent scumgame of his. But I don't feel like going through his ISO, so uh, yeah.

[Infinity 324]

I guess if anyone wants to talk to me about cakez and give their read+reasons, that'd be helpful.

[Infinity 324]

Because it's a scum fakeclaim and he was desperate to get it out.

Wait, explain this. Why does scum claim jk out of the blue which makes him potentially look suspicious (for reasons I can't understand, but nonetheless) when molla flips?

[Infinity 324]

And why did you not care about me and heartless both calling the claim town? And what's your read on molla/how is it affected by your read on aj?

[Infinity 324]

Being suspicious early d1, towning it up, then coasting/semi-coasting afterwards is definitely a scum narrative.

That's what happens when I get lazy, I forget about players...

[Infinity 324]

Because of what you just said afterward!

Just because it's WIFOM doesn't mean it's wrong.

How often do you see scum claim roles out of the blue?

And why did you not care about

me and heartless both calling the claim town

? And what's your read on molla/how is it affected by your read on aj?

I didn't care about it because I disagree.
I scumread Molla but it's unrelated to my AJ read.[/quote]

Are you concerned that you may have too many scumreads?

[Infinity 324]

Also, "I didn't care because I disagree" is not good play if you're town.

[Infinity 324]

AJ had, what, 3 votes on him? That's not a lot of pressure. What do you think about the whole thing where he was trying to figure out if he could jk heartless and still have them gives out roles?

Who do you think is the most likely to be wrong of the scumreads?

It's bad play because it doesn't help the town work together. Especially when it's a relatively important event, you should weigh in. People not engaging the people they disagree with is a lot of the reason why the game is stagnating imo. (though a little bit less in the past day)

[Infinity 324]

Now you're going to talk about how I didn't give a case on you d1...but the game was a lot more active then, and directly addressing the person you scumread can often be unproductive.

[Infinity 324]

...this is the guy that got a guilty on pine

[Infinity 324]

Where are you at with reads at this point pere?

[Infinity 324]

I thought you said you thought piper was being intentionally obtuse wrt setup, so how do you townread him? What do you think of him unvoting aj if that's the case?

[Infinity 324]

I was ISOing Infinity......

One of my favorite scum tactics, making it seem like the arguments against you are ridiculous.

If you think this often comes from scum why were you hard ton reading Titus while she was doing this to me?

Where?

[Infinity 324]

Probably not. I'd probably do me mastin desp or me desp and a scummish/null player.

The titus thing is not the same nero. What molla did was make a specific point seem like it's a ridiculous point even though it wasn't really.

[Infinity 324]

If nero had a torch I'd have been a pile of ashes for a while now.

[Infinity 324]

I mean anyone can defend scum. Butthe main thing cakez did that's scummy for coasting since d1 when the pressure came off him.

[Infinity 324]

I mean anyone can defend scum.

I agree. How do you think scum react to their buddies getting wagoned?

That really depends on the player and the situation

Titus should answer about the kling wagon (why she didn't yet is a mystery), but I find it hard to imagine her being intentionally obtuse there as scum.

"I've been right" is more of a statement of "I'm good" than "I'm town" but yeah.

PEdit: I'm considering it. I was townreading him before, but then I got lazy and stopped looking at him and he hasn't done much good stuff since then, so yeah.

[Infinity 324]

I think cakez/titus being SvT makes a lot of sense.

[Infinity 324]

but I find it hard to imagine her being intentionally obtuse there as scum.

Why?
a
So if Cakez were to flip town you'd think Titus is scum?

Because it's just terrible logic she can be called out on without any real benefit. I think what happened is that she just felt suspicious when everyone including me voted kling right at the start of d2.

Titus would definitely go down in my reads.

[Infinity 324]

I think what happened is that she just felt suspicious when everyone including me voted kling right at the start of d2.

sure ok, that's somewhat possible I guess but I think its equally as possible (possibly even more) that she's scum that was trying to get cheap cred and then power lynch off the Kling wagon. But at the same time

EVERYONE

knew Kling was going to be a thing so why would she be suspicious when the defacto thinking would have been "Kling quickhammered so she must be scum." So to me it looks like she went against the grain b/c she knew Kling wasn't scum.

Fair enough.

[Infinity 324]

zefiend, molla, cakez/titus
zefiend, cakez, twie/molla
zefiend, mastin, twie/titus

Most likely scumteams imo

[Infinity 324]

Something like that

[Infinity 324]

And what exactly have you done that's town?

[Infinity 324]

Mastins point is that by the time she started pushing pine it wasn't clear who the RL would be

[Infinity 324]

both teams you have me on are based around me and me teammates being incompetent.

which i find funny.

Oh then I still don't get what you're saying. You're saying that scum would have to be incompetent for those teams to be possible?

also i literally have 1 real interaction in this game and its insanely town.

so if you cant read that theres kinda no hope for you.

You mean the one with pine?

Yeah it points to you being town but it's well within the range of most scumgames.

I don't see a town motivation behind not scumhunting and instead wasting your time with shit like this.

[Infinity 324]

wow im sure this will be productive.

cant wait.

I'm sorry what concerns me doesn't concern you. What are your concerns?

What I dont get is why she lied.

if you cant explain the scum reasoning behind it then why do i care.

like cool cant wait for the 2 of you to argue about what you talked about in pms when your conclusion is well i dunno why she did it.

great.

like shes already scum reading you so she sees things you do as scummy.

shock awe gasp.

This is not "stopping the argument"

[Infinity 324]

It stopped because mastin didn't follow up. If you're saying it's unlikely that mastin would stop the SvS argument, then ok maybe. But you weren't the one that stopped the argument.

Anyway I don't care enough to go into detail about one or two hypothetical scumteams and I don't know why you care about this either.

[Infinity 324]

Well I am weighing in, aren't I?

Now that I'm asking you about it, yes

iirc you did case me day 1
I don't see the relevance of that though?

nvm

I'm not even coasting.

Debatable. You certainly aren't as active as you were then.

[Infinity 324]

ok

[Infinity 324]

@Piper I think I've explained my townreads on titus and aj well enough. For pere it's tone, his catchup looked like some genuine gamesolving, idk.

[Infinity 324]

Titus, I'm willing to talk to you if you're willing to accept you might be wrong on me.

[Infinity 324]

That's really the only issue I have with your play: that you're taking one read, not considering it could be wrong, and basing everything on that. I really want to help you get in this game, but your tunnel seems to be getting in the way.

[Infinity 324]

Rethinking some things...

UNVOTE: piper for rogue leader

Getting paranoid that he could be scum and pine joining the crew n1 basically guarantees no scum out of that group. Or at least it's very likely. Piper is still probably town but better to be safe.

Getting this odd feeling that zefiend is town, the ladt time I had that feeling about someone that I scumread strongly they flipped town. But I really don't know who else I'd vote and I want to see how he reacts to the wagon.

I'll ISO cakez sometime soon.

I'm just getting more and more null/lean reads as this game goes on which isn't good. I realized I can't be sure on my pere read or my AJ read either

Ughhh

[Infinity 324]

Zefiend is at L-2

[Infinity 324]

Getting paranoid that he could be scum and pine joining the crew n1 basically guarantees no scum out of that group. Or at least it's very likely. Piper is still probably town but better to be safe.

so as scum, I chose to throw a buddy who had AT LEAST one more,
neutralizing shot day 2, out the door?

you were fine, when you thought you were higher.
in my list of reads, what else has transpired?

(....DP sniffs the air...."yep" he thinks to himself, "bullshit is here")

It's more likely than heartless being scum and pine joining the crew anyway because ???

[Infinity 324]

I'm not saying I'm scumreading you, I'm saying I'm more confident heartless is town.

and there's still no one I scumread more than zefiend

So I really don't see the issue there

[Infinity 324]

I considered the possibility of you being scum

[Infinity 324]

Rethinking some things...

[Infinity 324]

Titus, I'm willing to talk to you if you're willing to accept you might be wrong on me.

If you're not willing to do this then sorry, but you can't complain about people being unwilling to talk to you.

[Infinity 324]

@infinity- that was some pretty bad backtracking....

...I reconsidered my reads. That's it

[Infinity 324]

Reads list pre-thinkover

Piper
Nero
Heartless
...

Post-thinkover

Nero
Heartless
Piper
...

What is there not to get

[Infinity 324]

Not sure about nero, but heartless yes.

I don't see where I said that I thought piper was scum 0_0

[Infinity 324]

I mean nero's townier but I'm not sure if he would make a better rogue leader. Luckily I don't have to think about it.

[Infinity 324]

And again: what kind of scum power existed to counter those?
The night-2 PR game doesn't count because all PRs that game were night 2 (and it was arguably not a Normal game for that reason alone but I digress). I'm talking about the JK/BP/BG/Doctor combos.

Did they have a form of strongman?
Or a form of roleblocker?

We don't know what power scum has in this game, so that's irrevelant. Sure, the scum probably had some power to counter that. (Idk why it matters since 2 protective roles by themselves make for a weak town, but ok)

Scum could have a strongman

and

a roleblocker this game for all we know. I mean, we know they had a vanillaizer...

[Infinity 324]

I am a fucking jack of all trades.

If you think that:
-Town 2x vigilante
-Whatever the rogue crew has (including at least one kill ability as per Klingoncelt's death and their word)
-Jailkeeper
-JOAT (tracker, the Pine guilty power, some third power which fitting the other two would presumably be investigative)
-JOAT (redirector, deflector, rolestop)
...Plus anything else we have unclaimed (in addition to all the VT abilities, which aren't exactly weak!)...
...Is all town?

I don't know what to tell you.

Because no. Just fucking no. That's not a town composition which would ever make it past a competent review team, unless the scumteam's WEAKEST PR was Pine's 2x-Vanillaizer (which is a pretty damn strong role!).

BBMolla's role is a scum role. I guarantee it.

Someone else verify this, I see it as plausible...would you need 4 scum PRs to counter 5 town PRs?

[Infinity 324]

zefiend's 2615

People keep saying this, but I don't see how "cakez defended and townread pine" is a legit case.

[Infinity 324]

i would be one of the people she wouldn't know what to tell.

assuming all the PR claims are town, i think the setup is WELL within range of balance-able esp if fire went with a scumteam size of 4

Ok thank you.

[Infinity 324]

Titus, I'm willing to talk to you if you're willing to accept you might be wrong on me.

Sure I am willing to accept the possibility I am wrong on you. Right now, you are so "go with the flow" and spammish, it blocks out everyone else. My biggest issue is you are in the way.

Is anyone saying your posts bring new insight? No. Are they doing things to help others develop reads? No. Your posts are useless for the most part.

If you are town, I need you to talk less but say more opinions to engage with.

Titus, I am trying my absolute best to make posts that progress the game. I'm not really sure what else you want from me.

In terms of reads, can you talk about your cakez and molla reads?

[Infinity 324]

vote:ɀefiend

You little shit

[Infinity 324]

Yo we need this day to end

[Infinity 324]

And the claim timing makes any more sense as town?

yes, definitely

because aj!scum just winging it wouldn't know if he would get cc'ed or not

But wouldn't it be a safe fakeclaim?

[Infinity 324]

This is totally not buddying while distancing from a mislynch so as to absolve yourself toMorrow...

I'm curious, how would mastin absolve herself from responsibility for her scumread flipping town?

[Infinity 324]

I brought up points about Cakez and voted for him, and Infinity is completely ignoring this and continuing to say I'm doing nothing. The second paragraph is just loaded with WIFOM: "maybe he had motivation, maybe he didn't... it doesn't matter what his alignment was for asking that question" Clearly I am not the only person who thinks these things are important. That's WHY I brought up the question in the first place.

...I never said you're "doing nothing"

I said you're not evaluating anything in-depth. Your "case" on cakez is not an exception.

And I don't get what you're saying with the rest of it. Cakez asked a question that makes sense to ask no matter his alignment or assessment of the situation, and you asked him his assessment of the situation presumably in order to determine his alignment. It's just not a good question.

[Infinity 324]

You didn't explain how your other scumreads are my partners. At all. And yet you berate me for "not considering scumteams." The hypocrisy is real.

Lol

I didn't say you had to do preflip association, I don't believe in that

I think you need to have a bigger perspective on the game and that includes considering whether you have a number of scumreads that makes sense, and things like that. I think my post is a good example of this as a matter of fact and your first post contained none of it.

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:

I'm getting serious cold feet with this wagon

Zefiend does seem to be doing some of his own original analysis, even reconsidering, and idk about the scum motivation for just obviously having no read progression and OMGUSing the 3 people who called you scum.

Bleh

[Infinity 324]

Maybe I shouldn't have made a summation post at 4 AM because I wasn't completely clear-headed, and now I'm widely scumread based on that post. But fuck it, that's how I do catch-ups as a replacement. Read the game and post initial thoughts to work from.

I feel this

[Infinity 324]

That's really the only issue I have with your play: that you're taking one read, not considering it could be wrong, and basing everything on that. I really want to help you get in this game, but your tunnel seems to be getting in the way.

Oh god the irony.

Except Titus is town and you're not.

I'm not basing everything on my read on you, and if you'll notice I just reconsidered. So fuck off.

[Infinity 324]

I mean you couldn't have known that at the time but still.

[Infinity 324]

Smackdown is over. You don't have to wait for Raw to finish to talk about Smackdown, if this is what you're referring to.

its not.

WWE Mafia - Smackdown! (

Game Over

- Off Television)
1 ... 787980by Vince McMahon » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:55 pm

Titus has already been talking about it extensively. Maybe you ignored/skimmed over her points about that. If you have something relevant to share then do so if there's a chance it will help me not be mislynched.

He's saying the reason didn't have to do with smackdown

[Infinity 324]

Zefiend, by the way, if I took your philosophy of "I disagree with your logic therefore you're scum" then I would in fact be deathtunneling you right now.

[Infinity 324]

zefiend's 2615

People keep saying this, but I don't see how "cakez defended and townread pine" is a legit case.

Because there was no explanation behind any of them, just a strict desire to halt/fight the Pine wagon.

Ok, sometimes townreads are hard to explain though

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: sircakez

If someone has reasons to townread this guy talk to me. I don't wanna bother ISOing him

[Infinity 324]

You guys love to post when I'm asleep don't you

[Infinity 324]

Nooo mastin

One of these times were both going to be on

[Infinity 324]

Well I mean if AJ is scum he did probably clain his real role. In that case there isn't really a risk of cc

[Infinity 324]

We all were highly suspicious of it at first but then some of us warmed up to the slot with gin's posting. I don't remember who did and didn't

[Infinity 324]

Looking at the ISOs of Heartless, you, Desp and Drunken, no one seemed to find Pine scummy for merely joining the Rogue Crew with his power. I don't think he started getting votes until after Drunken Piper started in on him.

Well at first we expressed suspicion of it in the crew, but the next day we weren't as worried

Mastin's been pretty consistent about scumreading pine for joining the crew, don't know about anyone else

[Infinity 324]

The cakez/titus interactions or lack thereof point strongly to it being SvT and I think titus is town

[Infinity 324]

Ugh I'll do it later

[Infinity 324]

The no killing doesn't mean much, especially since cakez wasn't widely townread going into n1

[Infinity 324]

Yeah that

[Infinity 324]

Was the vig given to someone on the crew or off the crew?

whatever night it was.

Not sure if I want to answer

[Infinity 324]

Piper, the cakez/titus thing was that they've had scumreads on each other since early d1 and they didn't interact very much. I find that usually there's one scum in those cases trying to have a scumread just to have a scumread, whereas town would try to push a lynch or try to find out if their scumread was correct. It's hard to tell which is which though, in this case and in general. The reason why I don't say SvS for sure is because it takes 2 people for extended interaction.

[Infinity 324]

I think cakez could be doing a last-ditch effort to appear town in these last couple pages. I'm not 100% on this lynch but I think it's a pretty good one.

I would've expected town!cakez to be more frustrated with my lazy vote on him.

[Infinity 324]

Cakez is at L-2. Let's just lynch him.

[Infinity 324]

If mastina had more influence though, town would be fucked

Yeah that's the thing though.

As scum, I know I'm not going to be listened to--people don't listen to me as town, so when I am scum I very explicitly exploit this. I use people not listening to me to push things which look good, yet I know won't actually go through. I've weaponized a lack of influence. So as scum. I don't win by getting people to follow me. I win by letting other players do the leading with me staying on the sidelines. I was on the sidelines for TheThinker. I was intended to be on the sidelines for Pine. (The guilty fucked that up.) I was on the sidelines for SirCakez. Basically most of the mislynches I was doing my own thing on, while still letting them go through.

I don't need to influence games as scum. I win specifically because I let town tear themselves apart. It might not be as glorious a tactic as charging in and power-lynching town after town after town. But it's simple, it's pragmatic, and most of all, it fucking WORKS.

You have a lot more influence than the average player, that's for sure

[Infinity 324]

That's fine, as long as you actually do reassess.

UNVOTE:

I think this is fine given titus's playstyle.

However, something bothered me about pine's first post and he continues to seem somewhat fake.

VOTE: pine

it feels off to have a strong personality saying she caught scum right out the gate but have the level-head to produce VCA which apparently she's good at doing.

This is titus in a nutshell

ok I like that posting enough. Still am kinda concerned about the early stuff but I'll let it go for now

VOTE: AJ

Like thinkbig said, they're fluffing it up

You like your VCA don't you

Does CWing mean anything to you this early?

I need flips. I can theorize with wagons but please don't try to "help" with my VCA with your votes. Just vote. Trying to help or get me to VCA on page 1 is creepy as fuck and your push on Pine reeks of desperation.

If you don't like VCA page 1, why did you vote me?

Your reaction here seems overblown.

VOTE: titus

That's fine, as long as you actually do reassess.

UNVOTE:

I think this is fine given titus's playstyle.

However, something bothered me about pine's first post and he continues to seem somewhat fake.

VOTE: pine

Hrmm

[Infinity 324]

Usually when I catch scum succesfully, I'm able to continue to find more and more reasons why they're scum. Not in a confirmation bias way where I'm forcing it, just in a natural way. That's what's happening with mastin right now.

Mastin is town imo

The question directed at cakez also feels quite fake

VOTE: zefiend

UNVOTE:

I'm getting serious cold feet with this wagon

Zefiend does seem to be doing some of his own original analysis, even reconsidering, and idk about the scum motivation for just obviously having no read progression and OMGUSing the 3 people who called you scum.

Bleh

Yep, 4/4 correct scumreads doubted. Achievement unlocked

[Infinity 324]

I didn't have abysmal reads in the end I just pushed the wrong ones harder than the right ones.

[Infinity 324]

I don't feel bad, I'm honestly kind of proud of myself for catching mastina having never played with her before lol

But I definitely learned something about doubting myself

[Infinity 324]

You mean forced perfection? Like she revises the post instead of posting the draft

I actually DO do this, but I do it as both alignments. It's thanks to a combination of bipolar disorder conflicting with autism.
My bipolar disorder has me often say the first thing in my mind. My autism tends to word things in a way which are often not great.

But I've learned to pause.
So I stop. I hesitate. And then I go, "do I want to post this?", and half the time the answer is "nope!", so I revise it until it's right or scrap it--perfection in my posts.

But I do it equally as town and as scum. Probably more as town than as scum.

Yeah this was one of the reasons I scumread you that was wrong.

I think the end result of your posts comes out pretty good It's like every post is a dramatic speech.