Star Wars Rogue One [GAME OVER]

[ɀefiend]

Rhetoric. The fact that Infinity was up for RL at one point and wanted others has shit all to do with anything.

False. Timeline has everything to do with it.
Your whole point boils down to:
"Heartless was the Rogue Leader. Heartless made their picks known. None were scum, thus, scum knew they weren't being picked. Thus, they knew that Pine would use his role. And therefore, mastina knew Pine was going down and could bus them."
THAT'S YOUR FUCKING ARGUMENT.
BUT IT IGNORES.
HOW HEARTLESS WASN'T EVEN CLOSE TO BEING THE ROGUE LEADER AT THE TIME.
At the time, Infinity was the Rogue Leader vote.
And Infinity had me as a pick.
The chronology doesn't fit. So no. Not rhetoric. That'd be YOU, bringing up an irrelevant point.

I don't get how this is a counterpoint.

If a scum got into the crew they would be able to tell Pine and perhaps he wouldn't use his ability. Whether he decides to use the ability or not isn't a requirement for you to bus him.

[ɀefiend]

cake plz vote zefiend
mastin plz vote zefiend

I'm predicting SirCakez will refuse (or maybe he'll join briefly, but leave for some bullshit reason), because they are in fact scumbuddies.

The problem is, I can help you lynch either of them, yet you won't give me anything in return. You won't help me lynch BBMolla when they flip scum, and that's the only thing which can make me switch. If you're going to be pursuing town after you lynch scum, it's not worth it. It's only if you pursue scum after lynching scum that it's worth a vote.

I KNOW that if I lynch BBMolla, you will continue to go after zefiend, maybe considering SirCakez.
I know that if I lynch zefiend, you'll be quick to pursue some moronic mislynch.

Am I wrong?

Tell me that, when zefiend flips scum, you'd consider going after BBMolla. Tell that to me with a straight face, absolute 100% sincerity. Do that, and you'll get my vote there. Otherwise, I'm sorry. No matter how much zefiend may be scum, I simply cannot in good faith vote there.

What's your stance on all this now that I'm about to be lynched? Considering SirCakez and BBMolla have just voteparked on me.

[ɀefiend]

Basically, to give an idea of my thoughts right now, it's that there's a lynch order, just like before.
BBMolla > SirCakez > zefiend.

zefiend is caught scum. Easily caught scum. Everyone sane knows he's scum. We can nab him at any time, and on future days if he's alive he'll not be able to escape. He IS eating rope this game, no matter what.
SirCakez is scum, and a fair majority of us know he is. And yet, he is not without key players defending him. That could cause long-term interference. He's not someone I think will make it to endgame as scum. He's someone I THINK will be getting lynched no matter what. But I don't actually KNOW it. It's possible he will escape. So, not the best candidate, but not the worst.

BBMolla is scum, but everyone is resisting the idea he is. Most of the key players this game insist he is town. This is an incredible danger, ESPECIALLY given his claimed role--if he actually has it and isn't vanillaized, he has the potential to absolutely DEVASTATE the town's PR usage. He is also likely the one in charge of the scum's NK after Pine died, so I see him as the greatest threat, and thus the best lynch.

I will compromise on SirCakez if I can't get BBMolla.
I will compromise on zefiend if I can't get either SirCakez or BBMolla.
But I still have that as my preferred lynch order, because I still hold true to Molla being the largest risk factor here.

Why aren't you addressing the fact that I was the first person to bring up any semblance of a case against SirCakez and how does that possibly fit into your bunk theory that we are scum together?

[SirCakez]

ftr if a Titus wagon ever got going I would un-votepark asap

[ɀefiend]

do you trust me+tth's judgment?

On zefiend, yes.
But that's our common ground.
If we lynch our common ground today, we get to do a whole song and dance of disagreeing, of diverging, tomorrow, and that won't be fun, because both of us will want credit for zefiend, both saying, "You trusted me yesterday, why not today?!?", because it was our fucking common ground. I've held a suspicion on the zefiend slot since late D1. I don't need to tell you he's scum, just like you don't need to tell me he's scum. But again. My concern here isn't today, in lynching scum.

It's future days, in lynching scum.

I want to lynch scum in the future.

I don't think lynching zefiend today will allow us to do that.
It'll be a scum lynch, yes! That will be a good thing, yes. But it's not the scum lynch I think we need.

I don't know how to better convey this. Basically. zefiend as scum tells us nothing we don't already know. We know he's scum. He can be lynched at any time. We lose nothing from lynching him, and lynching him is better than nothing and better than a mislynch. But we also gain nothing. That's my problem. I see you talking about zefiend being scum. I see Infinity talking about zefiend being scum.

But who else are you scumreading?
Who else do you think is scum?

Because without a clear direction there, lynching zefiend doesn't offer much, now, does it?

I suppose you could say, my posting today is mostly focused on getting it so that we have a clear picture of what to do after today. A clear picture of how to lynch scum consistently and constantly. Rather than scatter to the wind chaotically.

This is totally not buddying while distancing from a mislynch so as to absolve yourself toMorrow... /s

[Heartless]

If a scum got into the crew they would be able to tell Pine and perhaps he wouldn't use his ability. Whether he decides to use the ability or not isn't a requirement for you to bus him.

pine having an expiration date on him b/c of the ability is a part of nero's explanation for why mastin could've bussed and it's been hammered on for the last umpteen pages now

[ɀefiend]

ftr if a Titus wagon ever got going I would un-votepark asap

Look, I get it. You're scum and so from a survival standpoint, it makes sense to be on my wagon. Your distinct lack of talking about any of your reads in-depth (besides this messy convo with Heartless about AJ) is evidence that you're just gliding by and squatting on your vote because there's no danger in doing so right now.

[Aj The Epic]

whatever

VOTE: zefiend

Take it you're not really buying his claim?

[SirCakez]

If someone would like to know about any of my reads more indepth I'll do so, no one has asked me anything tho (except for said Heartless conversation).

[Heartless]

whatever

VOTE: zefiend

Take it you're not really buying his claim?

i mean... he's probably not lying about the claim but it's nai...?

idg your point

[ɀefiend]

If a scum got into the crew they would be able to tell Pine and perhaps he wouldn't use his ability. Whether he decides to use the ability or not isn't a requirement for you to bus him.

pine having an expiration date on him b/c of the ability is a part of nero's explanation for why mastin could've bussed and it's been hammered on for the last umpteen pages now

I know... you do realize I have been agreement with Nero for some time now, especially as it relates to the whole "timeline" argument?

Unless of course you are still pretending I didn't adequately express that to you. You know, I find it bananas how you and others can latch onto my SirCakez "case" so easily by parsing the quotes I provided, but you can't parse the quotes from Nero and Pere I provided that clearly show what I found appealing about their points vs. mastina.

It's almost like you're... confirming a bias of some sort.

[Heartless]

no one has asked me anything

could u plz smash my fingers w a hammer?

[ɀefiend]

Also I'm currently 10-11 pages behind so if I'm missing something that seems obvious... just bear with me while I catch up.

[Heartless]

You know, I find it bananas how you and others can latch onto my SirCakez "case" so easily by parsing the quotes I provided, but you can't parse the quotes from Nero and Pere I provided that clearly show what I found appealing about their points vs. mastina.

yeah you're right i'm just an idiot

[ɀefiend]

What are you not understanding about "laying all my initial thoughts on the table and getting a baseline to work from?" The post wasn't meant to explore in-depth evaluations on people. That is what I'm doing now.

How is the question to SirCakez not important? I feel like a lot of people are overlooking it. He explicitly asked me to look over people's interactions with Pine. When I did, I noticed that he (SirCakez) was defending Pine. Here's the posts I dug up (everything you see as "..." is extraneous content; I don't wanna make this post too long):

First of all, no you're not evaluating people in-depth right now and you never did. You just called 3 people scum that were voting you and dropped 2 other scumreads entirely. Not to mention you didn't even consider possible scumteams

Second of all, the question to cakez seems bad because, well, if you think the interactions with pine make him seem scummy, vote him. That doesn't mean pine interactions weren't a good thing to tell you to look for. With a flipped scum, interactions with that scum are one of the most important things. I don't see particular motivation for scum!cakez to ask that if his interactions with pine looked particularly bad; in fact, he'd have motivation not to ask it. But anyway telling you to look for pine interactions to help you figure things out makes sense regardless of his alignment and regardless of what those interactions are.

I just don't understand how someone can make posts like these without being scum.

I brought up points about Cakez and voted for him, and Infinity is completely ignoring this and continuing to say I'm doing nothing. The second paragraph is just loaded with WIFOM: "maybe he had motivation, maybe he didn't... it doesn't matter what his alignment was for asking that question" Clearly I am not the only person who thinks these things are important. That's WHY I brought up the question in the first place.

[SirCakez]

no one has asked me anything

could u plz smash my fingers w a hammer?

no

[ɀefiend]

I think one of {molla, cakez, mastin} is scum. Zefiend is another scum. The third is either TWIE or maybe titus or pere. Or there's only 2 scum.

That's why I'm only voting zefiend today, lol. Too many possibilities.

If you're going to make pre-flip associations like this, explain them.

If you think I'm scum who are my partners and why.

If you can't explain why they're scum without relying on me flipping scum, then your entire post right here is bullshit.

Ok, all you had to do is ask...

This is mainly a PoE list. Nero is town because he's playing very strongly to his town meta and I don't think he can fake this tone as scum. Heartless are town because they're putting in so much effort to solve the game and I haven't seen anything worrying from them. Also I agree with a lot of their reads. Piper is town because of the guilty on pine and because I've liked his thoughts throughout the game. AJ is town for his claim.

The leaves the players in the list there. You know why I think you're scum. I think either mastin is right on one of her scumreads or is scum herself, because of BoP. (The other one of molla/cakez should also be in the other group). Then I have TWIE who I have only a slight lean scum on, and my weak townreads pere and titus. LUV was null for me but I liked pere's catchup so far, and Titus's play doesn't make much sense to me as scum even though it seems like bad play.

Ok, that's where I'm at with this game.

You didn't explain how your other scumreads are my partners. At all. And yet you berate me for "not considering scumteams." The hypocrisy is real.

[ɀefiend]

cake plz vote zefiend
mastin plz vote zefiend

I'm predicting SirCakez will refuse (or maybe he'll join briefly, but leave for some bullshit reason), because they are in fact scumbuddies.

The problem is, I can help you lynch either of them, yet you won't give me anything in return. You won't help me lynch BBMolla when they flip scum, and that's the only thing which can make me switch. If you're going to be pursuing town after you lynch scum, it's not worth it. It's only if you pursue scum after lynching scum that it's worth a vote.

I KNOW that if I lynch BBMolla, you will continue to go after zefiend, maybe considering SirCakez.
I know that if I lynch zefiend, you'll be quick to pursue some moronic mislynch.

Am I wrong?

Tell me that, when zefiend flips scum, you'd consider going after BBMolla. Tell that to me with a straight face, absolute 100% sincerity. Do that, and you'll get my vote there. Otherwise, I'm sorry. No matter how much zefiend may be scum, I simply cannot in good faith vote there.

Ok, nero cain.

But yes, I'm considering the possibility of scum!molla now in fact. Not sure about heartless, but if you convince me molla is scum I will vote there. Good enough?

Now this post gives me pause.

Maybe Cakez/Infinity/BBMolla?

[Nero Cain]

ftr if a Titus wagon ever got going I would un-votepark asap

I was sitting on Titus for fucking ever and even threaten to vote everyone that wouldn't vote Titus...why no vote then?

[ɀefiend]

That in combination with Nero's points heavily challenged my one-dimensjonal read on mastina

what were these points?

This is the bulk of the conversation with Pere and Nero about mastin

Spoiler:

I feel that mastina's defense against his concerns (re: the timeline of game events, and the motivations behind Pine and mastina's actions) was legitimate.

I think Mastina's timeline jazz is just fucking strongly worded bullshit but if you actually read it then it makes no sense. For all intents and purposes we'll assume Mastina is scum in this post. Like Pine had a role that publicly outs his action. Both him and Mastina would know this. Her main argument here is that scum wouldn't know who was getting into the crew, however, this totally ignores that Heartless

DID

state who she wanted in the crew. Why does she gloss over that? Also, from what I understand, Pine joined late so its possible that scum used their action once it was confirmed there was no scum in the crew.

So explain to me why I should just accept that Mastina is town and their history let her scum read Pine. When A.) it makes sense to bus a player that will eventually go down. B.) She was strong arming said lynch with little to no reason. Why couldn't she have just said "oh this post and this post and this post gives me bad vibes." As long winded as she is she could have done so and I don't think she ever did wich I think is sketchy as fuck.

mastin not giving specifics is NAI

maybe maybe not. Sure I've seen town not give reasons but that's bad town play. I'd like to think that Mastin is not bad.

I think scum are plenty capable of doing so. Infact you keep going on about how you've played with Titus scum. She hard defends/town reads her buddies all the time.

Yeah I'm not really buying into the whole "no way would I bus Pine since we are besties from way back." I think you'd bus him/he'd want to be bussed if it gave scum a tactical advantage. As soon as he used his ability he was very likely to get lynched and scum would have known this day 1.

I'm no where near having read the whole game, but I started with a Pine ISO and jumped into points there.

@Mastin-

My biggest issue with your claim is the point in time you came up with your Pine scumread (post 512).
You then "read", and confirm it with your vote 520.

this is followed by "Molla might be scum" (521). Based on progression, this read comes from:
[...long ass spoiler...] Which looks like a bunch of /Gin posting

But, by 584, you have sloidifdied that Pine-a-tronics is scum.

At least she's Town this game.

Yes I am! You, however, are your usual scumfuck self!

And this:

Pine is also scum. I prefer to vote Pine, in spite of SirCakez being scum, because lynching scum is lynching scum. The who or the why isn't as important as the act itself. Obviously I'll vote SirCakez if I can't lynch Pine. That goes without saying. But Pine is the scum I would prefer to lynch, because my scumread there is not only stronger, it is also on a firmer basis (I know Pine better), with better reasons, and also on someone who WILL slip away if you let him go.

Meanwhile, neither head of the hydra tries really hard to break you from your read, nor do they try to engage you that I can see. If your sure Pine is scum based on his 5 posts, yet the Gin side does nothign to affect your read?

Sounds kind of fake.

Triple ISO of Pine-Mastin-Molla

Code: Select all

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=69912&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select%5B%5D=28641&user_select%5B%5D=29138&user_select%5B%5D=16026&user_sort=Go

I feel that mastina's defense against his concerns (re: the timeline of game events, and the motivations behind Pine and mastina's actions) was legitimate.

I think Mastina's timeline jazz is just fucking strongly worded bullshit but if you actually read it then it makes no sense. For all intents and purposes we'll assume Mastina is scum in this post. Like Pine had a role that publicly outs his action. Both him and Mastina would know this. Her main argument here is that scum wouldn't know who was getting into the crew, however, this totally ignores that Heartless

DID

state who she wanted in the crew. Why does she gloss over that? Also, from what I understand, Pine joined late so its possible that scum used their action once it was confirmed there was no scum in the crew.

So explain to me why I should just accept that Mastina is town and their history let her scum read Pine. When A.) it makes sense to bus a player that will eventually go down. B.) She was strong arming said lynch with little to no reason. Why couldn't she have just said "oh this post and this post and this post gives me bad vibes." As long winded as she is she could have done so and I don't think she ever did wich I think is sketchy as fuck.

The only problem I have with your logic is when you say Pine "will eventually go down." I don't know if there's credence to that statement before the guilty result comes out.

As to your second point, I will admit that my initial read of the game placed mastina as Town because I didn't think her tone was being faked; that it would come from a bus. I gave her the benefit of the doubt. But if you and other vets in the game are saying this is within scum!mastina's range, I will also give you the benefit of the doubt. I absolutely hate being tricked by tone and my gut feeling is that mastina's was Town who just had a really good tell on Pine. If enough people tell me that my gut is being stupid, I'll stop relying on it.

Pine & Mastin interaction was zero. And most of the "Pine" was the other hydra head.
Mastina did not "sort" PineTornics, she already knew he was scum.
And he didn't fight it, no matter how often she repeated it over and over again, because no way did they want a 1v1 with each other.

yeah... no, you have now formally surrendered the right to bitch about "engagement" with me because the point of me asking was for you to state the reasoning IN YOUR OWN WORDS not to just glibly quote posts, which i can already see.

OK, I see that you actually do need me to spell everything out for you.

I was not in the game D1, so I was not in the "flow" of things. However based on my read of the game, I thought mastina was likely town based on her tone with regards to pushing Pine. That's what I wrote down in my catch-up post. After reading over 70 pages or whatever, I just wanted to get my initial thoughts down. I didn't want to heavily explore all the nuances of the possibilities that mastina bussed. Maybe I shouldn't have made a summation post at 4 AM because I wasn't completely clear-headed, and now I'm widely scumread based on that post. But fuck it, that's how I do catch-ups as a replacement. Read the game and post initial thoughts to work from.

Nero provided some context from D1 that got me thinking about how a conceived plan between Pine and mastina would actually go down. I found that Nero adequately explained why it would be likely for mastina to consider bussing if she knew the trajectory of the game (in this case, the crew composition). Nero and Pere both touched on another point about mastina not laying out concrete reasons from THIS game for scumreading Pine. Pere went in-depth how mastina seemed to only be interacting with one head and how that interaction seemed shallow. Again, I was not even in the game while Pine was, so I wasn't considering the hydra-head aspect that Pere pointed out.

All of that is what I mean by "reconsidering my one-dimensional read." It was originally based on tone, but based on further input I reconsidered a variety of factors. I don't think it's fair for you or anyone to say that my reads (not just on mastina) haven't evolved as a result of me trying to scumhunt.

[ɀefiend]

but the only way I could see Titus town is if Cakez is scum. I mean I did like zefiends stuff about Cakez defending Pine but Infinity was also kinda defending Pine. He was voting for him for awhile kinda goes back and forth.

Wtf? Then why are you voting me? I've been saying Titus is town and Cakez is scum for some time now.

[ɀefiend]

I do have another reason why I think Titus is scum and why I think efiend is town but I'm not ready to share with the class.

Smackdown is over. You don't have to wait for Raw to finish to talk about Smackdown, if this is what you're referring to.

And I would self-meta but Titus is already doing it for me. She's absolutely correct in why she's town-reading me based on that game.

[Nero Cain]

Smackdown is over. You don't have to wait for Raw to finish to talk about Smackdown, if this is what you're referring to.

its not.

[ɀefiend]

That's really the only issue I have with your play: that you're taking one read, not considering it could be wrong, and basing everything on that. I really want to help you get in this game, but your tunnel seems to be getting in the way.

Oh god the irony.

Except Titus is town and you're not.

[Nero Cain]

Then why are you voting me?

So...your 100% and you rather die instead of Titus? If your answer to this is no then vote her and I'll unvote.