Micro 768: Geriatric Grey Flag Nightless - Game Over

Jingle · Post Post #50 (ISO) » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:05 pm

Spoiler: Source of my Ray meta

Spoiler: Frosty Responses

Spoiler: @ Korts

Spoiler: Luca analysis

At the risk of being accused of answering for other people again, I reeeally don't like Key's reluctance to vote me. Nor do I like the fact that it comes up in every part of 49.

I would also like to apologize if my posts come out a bit on the long side. I think I can be forgiven, however, especially considering I plan on posting only once or twice a day.

CultOfAthena · Post Post #51 (ISO) » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:08 pm

@Mod, the votecount is incorrect – insanity is voting me.

In post 41, RayFrost wrote:If you don't mind sharing what name I know you by, Jingle, it'd be appreciated. If not, tally-ho.
I'd like to note that I haven't actually been too busy to post. I waited.

LAMIST. Really, why bring attention to this? Just for the town cred?

Spoiler: Korts

Spoiler: Keychain

In post 49, Keychain wrote:Why did you think that just asking the question wouldn't get a response?
The assumption is you're voting something you at least find partially scummy
, not just to show you mean serious business with your kind of arbitrary question.

Yes, that assumption is correct, as I made clear later. As for your first question, I would think that just asking the question would get a response, but there's a certain "demanding" effect that following something with a vote has. Anything with a vote attached to it obviously indicates more importance, the effect that I was going for.

At that point I was interested in voting Jingle to follow up on my post, but that would have put him to L-1, so I didn't.

What about him being put at L-1 stopped you? What I see in this is someone concerned with how it would look putting someone else to L-1 with their vote moreso than actually concerned about the risk of a quickhammer.

While I don't want to rehash insanity's post 36, I agree with most of what they've said.

I disagree that a lack of transparency as described in 36 is somehow scum indicative, 1 but being pedantic over details to the point of nitpicking tends to divert town away from scumhunting and 2 immediately using self meta to excuse superficial questioning is scummy.

1 Is that what you think I was doing? I wasn't (self-admittedly, I might add) being pedantic just to argue a meaningless point – I was clarifying points that I felt others had misrepresented me on. What's more, you say that it "tends to divert town away from scumhunting", but unless that's what you're saying I was doing, your suspicion isn't based on anything that I've actually done. In the post where I call myself pedantic, I made points directly relevant to scumhunting – there's no diversion of any sort, like getting into some meaningless argument over definitions.

I've seen meaningless pedantry before – I wasn't doing anything of the sort, and I'm not sure if you genuinely believe that I was.

2 What about my questions are superficial? Like I've made clear before, I gather information from every question I ask. Just because you can't imagine what's to be gained doesn't mean that there

isn't

anything to be gained.

Also, whether or not you believe it's scummy, do you believe it's a valid point? It's not so much self-meta of some specific game, it's just my playstyle.

In post 50, Jingle wrote:At the risk of being accused of answering for other people again, I reeeally don't like Key's reluctance to vote me. Nor do I like the fact that it comes up in every part of 49.

Aristophanes expressed the same hesitance in 48 – do you feel the same way about that? I'm not a fan of the self-consciousness in either case.

What do you mean when you say "every part"? From what I gathered it only played a part in her response to me.

insanity018 · Post Post #52 (ISO) » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:08 pm

In post 37, CultOfAthena wrote:
Meaningless discussion about Mafia theory that doesn't contribute anything to solving the game. Athena doesn't even try to make an argument as to whether Korts or Reck are scum and whether they fit into her theory.
It does contribute something towards solving the game – I think that anyone going off of what Jingle said would be lead to false conclusions, so I pointed that out. What I was saying wasn't even mainly about Korts and Reck, it was about Jingle. I'm mainly looking to see how Jingle responds. If, for example, he continues to push his point and his reasoning doesn't feel genuine, that begs further questions about his motivations and why he might be pushing that narrative. If he responds and his thought process feels genuine, that indicates to me that he's probably town, even if I disagree with what he's saying – that kind of examinating of the game seems more likely to come from town than to be fabricated by scum, to me.

@CultofAthena

, so Jingle's made quite a lengthy post in response to your theory questions in 40. You made a lengthy post in 51 where you didn't follow up at all. So, do you think Jingle's thought process is town or scum?

--

@RayFrost

In post 41, RayFrost wrote:
Luca's posting involves a lot of putting words into other people's mouths and doesn't feel like a lot of words coming out of his own mouth and this is questionable and worthy of suspicion.

I haven't had this impression at all. Were there any specific posts that made you feel this way?

insanity018 · Post Post #53 (ISO) » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:14 pm

I'm not loving Korts's most recent posts. 44 and 46 feel very non-committal, just dropping in to answer questions and respond to people that are scumreading him.

Korts said that he would be returning soon with deeper thoughts soon so I'm interested whether he will say anything more.

CultOfAthena · Post Post #54 (ISO) » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:36 pm

In post 52, insanity018 wrote:@CultofAthena, so Jingle's made quite a lengthy post in response to your theory questions in 40. You made a lengthy post in 51 where you didn't follow up at all. So, do you think Jingle's thought process is town or scum?

Reading his response in 40, I didn't get the feeling that these were all things that he had fully thought through at the start of the game. That's not to say that I think he's making things up, however – just that his explanation seems too in-depth to be something he was thinking about early on, which is mainly what I was looking for as a towntell. It seems to me that he believes what he's saying so I'm inclined to say that it's a town thought process, but I certainly haven't come away from this with the level of confidence one way or the other that I was hoping for.

I also disagree with his assertion that the strategy I was describing would be suboptimal play, but I didn't feel that continuing the conversation would be productive.

insanity018 wrote:I'm not loving Korts's most recent posts. 44 and 46 feel very non-committal, just dropping in to answer questions and respond to people that are scumreading him.

Korts said that he would be returning soon with deeper thoughts soon so I'm interested whether he will say anything more.

I understand the point about just responding to those scumreading him, but where do you see Korts being non-commital there, except perhaps in the unvote?

xRECKONERx · Post Post #55 (ISO) » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:57 pm

In post 40, Jingle wrote:He's a Majiffy school of mafia player, not a mastina one.

The rest of this paragraph basically amounts to "I scumread Korts because everyone else has meta reasons not to give a fuck" and that really doesn't sit right with me, BECAUSE I don't think Jingle went through all that calculus before pointing his finger at Korts. This seems like a way to retroactively justify it--not that retroactively applying insight to a gut thing is a scumtell, but this is really theatrical.

Ray's 41 reads to me like someone pretending to have reads after skimming the game rather than someone's truly heartfelt and fire-tested opinions about the game. Again, not really alignment indicative in a vacuum, and I have no other context to go off of, so it's null.

Ari's thought so far are pretty close to my own, which makes me want to gut townread him. However, my single greatest weakness as a player is that I allow people to slip into my blind spot too easily when they agree with me, so just a personal note to myself to keep that in mind when I'm inevitably iso'ing this later.

Responses to Keychain:

- Fair enough re: the "joke" vs "bait" topic. I don't have enough steam to run on that for much longer, was just curious, and your explanation seems reasonable.
- I still don't get why saying "I don't see two scum jumping on the same vote early" is any different from "If Korts is scum, Reck is town, because they both jumped on the same vote early". Ostensibly, you agree with the logic there--why is it an "extra extrapolation" to say I'm town? It follows the logic from his perspective. Do you think no associative tells should be made until someone is flipped?
- There's a thin line between "having multiple scumreads" and just "throwing shade on everyone who is visible". For me, it seemed more like you were looking at the major spat at the time and just going "well they both could be scum" which felt weird to me.

insanity is a strong town read for me at this point. I feel like she's adding a good level of thought and critical insight into behaviors. Her point about Korts only responding to things about him is intriguing. I tend to play selfishly as well (where I only check in and skim for my name) so I might be biased against Korts doing it here. But there is something extra about how Korts justifies it and makes it seem so nonchalant that has my interest piqued.

So, I come out of that with two town reads (Ari/insanity), a handful of people sliding into the scum side of the column (Jingle/Keychain/CultOfAthena), and a various levels of null (Korts/Ray/Luca).

I do feel like, however, that my vote is probably fine staying on Jingle for the moment.

RayFrost · Post Post #56 (ISO) » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:37 pm

Am actually too busy to commit time for full responses, so short responses for now:

Reck - I'm not going to have fire-tested anything two pages into the game. There's just enough for me to put forward what I did for the time being (I could've mayyybe written some more things, but etc).

Jingle: you answer a question directed at cultofathena in the post that I linked directly before that statement, unless I'm misreading something. fair enough on the other thing, not really anything specific I want to discuss at this time thanks - if you want to ask me something feel free

Re question regarding luca putting words in other people's mouths, I suppose I used the wrong wording, I'll get back to that sometime later or forget and then get back to it when someone asks

CultOfAthena asking me about why I mention my availability - transparency's sake. I don't see how saying I haven't been too busy to do the thing could be for town cred given that jingle specifically said "I don't find ray suspect of doing thing because he's probably too busy to do the thing," though I'd like to see how you think it could be. Please, do explain.

CultOfAthena · Post Post #57 (ISO) » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:14 pm

In post 56, RayFrost wrote:CultOfAthena asking me about why I mention my availability - transparency's sake. I don't see how saying I haven't been too busy to do the thing could be for town cred given that jingle specifically said "I don't find ray suspect of doing thing because he's probably too busy to do the thing," though I'd like to see how you think it could be. Please, do explain.

Ah, there's been a misunderstanding here, on my part. I had a whole response typed up before I realized that what you were saying originally was in response to Jingle saying that you would be too busy to come up with some plan. That explains you bringing up how you weren't too busy, something that I couldn't understand. I still think, however, that the specific mention of how you've been waiting to make your posts is LAMIST. I feel that a townie who was actually intentionally waiting to make as comprehensive posts as possible would simply do so and let their posts speak for themselves, without feeling the need to make the strategy explicitly clear.

Jingle · Post Post #58 (ISO) » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:17 pm

In post 55, xRECKONERx wrote:The rest of this paragraph basically amounts to "I scumread Korts because everyone else has meta reasons not to give a fuck" and that really doesn't sit right with me, BECAUSE I don't think Jingle went through all that calculus before pointing his finger at Korts. This seems like a way to retroactively justify it--not that retroactively applying insight to a gut thing is a scumtell, but this is really theatrical.

You missed the point spectacularly. That's a pile of logic to point at why you and korts likely aren't scum together. It has very little to do with my actual scumread on korts and was mostly done before the game was started. Admittedly, insanity and CoA were 'researched' after D1 began, but :shrugs:.

Also, I'll try not to refer to it as the Majiffy school in the future, but you have to admit that there are segments of the population that tend to play in similar manners and he is one of if not the biggest name from that style as of 2013 when my analysis of ms cliques began. Unless the problem is with my analysis of you, in which case feel free to tell me where I'm wrong.

xRECKONERx wrote:I do feel like, however, that my vote is probably fine staying on Jingle for the moment.

Me too.

@ CoA:

In post 49, Keychain wrote:
Spoiler: Athena 18
At that point I was interested in voting Jingle to follow up on my post, but that would have put him to L-1, so I didn't.

Spoiler: Reck 20
I see scummy things in both of them. Do you expect me to only have one scumread at a time?

Spoiler: insanity 23
This could be because I tend to attribute more seriousness to votes that are closer to lynch - it was L-2 and looked like it was taking seriously the reasoning Reck had given.

There's the repetition, with everything else snipped. Granted, I was most of the content in the thread at the time in one way or another, but it rubs me the wrong way. Having everything be about me and still not being on my wagon is pretty

.

Ari, on the other hand said much the same thing, once, earlier. Additionally, he didn't just get done playing with me in a game where I'm fairly certain that I mentioned one of my goals starting out most games is to hit L-1 early regardless of Role PM because I find it easier as both alignments to work from a position where I can analyze a wagon on me, making the egregiousness of his infraction much smaller. Had he voted me, however, I would have been almost assured of his town status.

Luca was not in the game I thought he was and from both games I read which we played together tends to a bit on the lurky side of the scale. I'll have to revisit that at some point.

And Ray, for clarities sake I do see what you're referring to, but she asked me the same question (or rather a question with the same answer) in literally her previous post, so I'm going to plead innocent on the whole answering for other people charge.

In post 56, RayFrost wrote:Re question regarding luca putting words in other people's mouths, I suppose I used the wrong wording, I'll get back to that sometime later or forget and then get back to it when someone asks

Consider yourself asked, when you have the time. I'll bring it up again if I must, but this needs to be addressed.

Korts · Post Post #59 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:03 am

Man, this is the first time in a long while that I'm not actually dreading a reread.

Here are my notes as I go through:

Spoiler: Page 1

Jingle, post 5, sets the chainsaw defense bait and jokes about getting a Vanilla Town role PM. Simultaneously claims scum and town, which is a game relevant joke - this is a good catalyst, and a proactive move.

People who do not respond to the bait:

insanity - makes a default opening post.
RayFrost - jokingly OMGUSes CoA, who had jokingly voted him. Also an opening post.
Aristophanes - makes a default opening post.
Luca Blight - Also opening post. Puts a seasonal vote on Jingle, but not in response to Jingle's post.
xRECKONERx - opening post, just banter.

I am the first to bite in post 11. Jingle immediately responds, confirming the scum claim, while separately pointing to Reck's banter as a scum tell. Reck immediately votes Jingle, and spells out the exact logic of the scum claim, somewhat excessively. (I now find this kind of overzealous and a bit scummy from Reck.)

In the post immediately after Reck's, I jump on the wagon too, and Jingle immediately serious votes me in 15. I'm not addressing the points against me at this point, but interestingly, he calls Reck probably town just three posts after calling him probably scum, even though Reck's overzealous wagon starter is more problematic to me. He does mention the lack of an RVS vote as a negative, even though RVS voting is just a custom and not generally accepted as an alignment indicative issue. (Though I suspect we can disagree endlessly about the importance of RVS.)

In the subsequent chatter, I note the following things:

Keychain's opening post (16) is kind of playing both sides of the argument. Could be a deliberate bid to stay out of it, but also, again, an opening post.
Aristo's 19 somehow takes issue with Jingle's VT claim instead of reflecting on the scum claim conversation, and then praises all three main proponents of that conversation - followed by an immediate denial of the "forward movement?" This is all kinds of tonally wrong to me.
Reck's 20 and 21 make good points, but it also makes me uneasy, because while his analysis of both Keychain and CoA is sound, it seems to be concerned mostly with finding fault rather than listening and responding. Of course, this is still all page 1, so some game starting hyperbole is warranted.
I like insanity's 22-24.

Spoiler: Luca's post 25

Spoiler: Rest of page 2

I'm starting to zone out, so page 3 is yet to come.

For now, I'm more than comfortable voting Luca.

VOTE: Luca

Aristophanes · Post Post #60 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:44 am

In post 58, Jingle wrote:Ari, on the other hand said much the same thing, once, earlier. Additionally, he didn't just get done playing with me in a game where I'm fairly certain that I mentioned one of my goals starting out most games is to hit L-1 early regardless of Role PM because I find it easier as both alignments to work from a position where I can analyze a wagon on me, making the egregiousness of his infraction much smaller. Had he voted me, however, I would have been almost assured of his town status.

I would actually be far more likely to do this as scum simply because it is an unlikely play btw. Doesn't really matter much to discussion, but I think it is an interesting note.

I need one more day as I am off to work and have a holiday party tn (I may get a chance to phonepost there, but I'd prefer not to so I can edit and trim posts with ease instead of making bulky ones).

And yes, even with this ruleset I will be low posting and proddodging at times. At least it gives me a chance to engage when I am here though!

xRECKONERx · Post Post #61 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:52 pm

In post 59, Korts wrote:Reck immediately votes Jingle, and spells out the exact logic of the scum claim, somewhat excessively. (I now find this kind of overzealous and a bit scummy from Reck.)

FYI, I was doing one of those "explain the joke and take it seriously" bits. I believe Jingle understood what chainsaw meant. I hadn't placed an RVS vote and had only made a confirmation post so this was my attempt at doing so.

insanity018 · Post Post #62 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:46 pm

I'm still happy voting CultofAthena. I still don't see any scumhunting intent in her posts and not following up on questions that she said claimed would be useful for her to sort out town thought processes from scum isn't good.

I saw Reck describe Jingle's play as being 'theatrical'. I think that's a good way of summarising why I feel uncomfortable with his play.

In post 56, RayFrost wrote: Re question regarding luca putting words in other people's mouths, I suppose I used the wrong wording, I'll get back to that sometime later or forget and then get back to it when someone asks

The question came from me. Well, what were you meaning to say then?

In post 59, Korts wrote:I don't really get insanity's CoA case. I relate to CoA's 37 response more, and insanity calling it defensive is unfair considering she just made a case to be defended against. Then again,
Ray's support of the case in 41 indicates either that there's something to it
,
or a potential Ray-insanity connection

That's two polar opposites

I don't really understand your Luca Blight case. Your 59 summarises all of his posts. But, what exactly are you finding scummy about them?

Luca Blight · Post Post #63 (ISO) » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:43 pm

V/LA until 6th Jan.

I will try to keep up with the thread as much as I can while I'm away.

Korts · Post Post #64 (ISO) » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:18 am

In post 62, insanity018 wrote:I don't really understand your Luca Blight case. Your 59 summarises all of his posts. But, what exactly are you finding scummy about them?

Undermining my questions to Jingle, co-opting the "superficial" narrative, and dishonest tonal analysis. The case he made was designed not to scumhunt, but discredit my position. I do not see how that is town behavior.

Korts · Post Post #65 (ISO) » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:25 am

In post 62, insanity018 wrote:
In post 59, Korts wrote:I don't really get insanity's CoA case. I relate to CoA's 37 response more, and insanity calling it defensive is unfair considering she just made a case to be defended against. Then again,
Ray's support of the case in 41 indicates either that there's something to it
,
or a potential Ray-insanity connection
That's two polar opposites

I dunno, I'm leaving room for the possibility that I didn't read your case well enough, or that our scumdars operate on different wavelengths. Ray's agreement can be any number of things depending on any number of others. I'm just saying it's a noteworthy agreement, and might be more meaningful for analysis down the line.

Luca Blight · Post Post #66 (ISO) » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:26 am

I could accuse you right now of discrediting my position and not scumhunting. What you're saying is completely baseless - you have shown nothing that suggests my post was purely set out to discredit you instead of to scumhunt.

I agreed that your questions were superficial. Why is it scummy to reiterate what someone else has said that you agree with? If I tried to claim the opinion for my own perhaps, but to openly agree with something?

It feels like you're reaching for something to scumread me for.

Luca Blight · Post Post #67 (ISO) » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:50 am

Why am I scummy for co-opting the

'superficial narrative

', but you're not scummy for co-opting Jingle's opinion that

'Luca may be scum

'?

Korts · Post Post #68 (ISO) » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:29 am

You have conveniently failed to address the biggest indicator: undermining my questions. My reading of everything else comes from that.

Jingle · Post Post #69 (ISO) » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:45 am

As of this point in the game, I have two fairly strong town reads, 3 fairly strong scumreads, and 2 leans scum reads. I am relatively certain that the 3 strong scum reads are not scum together (though I could easily see being right about 2/3). The last player sits just on the town side of the null town border, but is by no means a strong read. I believe both of my town reads are voting town, but am significantly less sure about one than the other. I am not willing to put names to any of these players at this time, but will be happy to when certain things resolve themselves.

My feelings wrt Korts remain largely unchanged, but a conflicting scumread and associatives leads me to believe this is a better vote:

VOTE: RayFrost

In post 62, insanity018 wrote:I saw Reck describe Jingle's play as being 'theatrical'. I think that's a good way of summarising why I feel uncomfortable with his play.

My play is very theatrical, which is a null tell from me. There's a far better reason to be uncomfortable with my play, which I'll talk about in a couple days when the fallout from Luca and Korts settles. Mostly because it would interrupt my eating of popcorn, but also because it would taint a specific tool being used to further a tricky read.

In post 60, Aristophanes wrote:I would actually be far more likely to do this as scum simply because it is an unlikely play btw.

Do you have any games you can link to to prove/provide evidence for this statement?

CultOfAthena · Post Post #70 (ISO) » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:58 am

Korts, please respond to my questions in 51.

I should have more to say later.

xRECKONERx · Post Post #71 (ISO) » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:28 am

In post 69, Jingle wrote:My play is very theatrical, which is a null tell from me. There's a far better reason to be uncomfortable with my play, which I'll talk about in a couple days when the fallout from Luca and Korts settles. Mostly because it would interrupt my eating of popcorn, but also because it would taint a specific tool being used to further a tricky read.

You'll have to excuse me for not being satisfied having my gut twinge described away with self meta.

Keychain · Post Post #72 (ISO) » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:46 am

I'm going to continue to be a wee bit scarce until the holiday period is done, sorry about that

I'll be around later today.

Lord Gurgi · Post Post #73 (ISO) » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:07 pm

Please note that I will be suspending activity requirements until the 2nd of January. That means no prods will be sent out until January 5 at the latest. Geriatric Ruleset still applies.

Aristophanes · Post Post #74 (ISO) » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:41 pm

In post 73, Lord Gurgi wrote:Please note that I will be suspending activity requirements until the 2nd of January. That means no prods will be sent out until January 5 at the latest. Geriatric Ruleset still applies.

<3

You are literally my favourite person right now!

I'm here and catching up! a few wine glasses in and rearing to go, so let's see what I can do!