BLOODBORNE MAFIA - GAME OVER

[Liger_Zero]

And I mean it's not like you being town is the only explanation. Without hearing it from you, I could have taken my direction in any number of ways. Sure, Shinobi is the "easy mislynch" but the dichotomy between shadow_step and he was already there. You coulda been introducing a new candidate hoping to distract from both of them.

Which reminds me

Gigalurk Tier:

Bogre
Hastur & Muriel
PeregrineV
Heuristic_Arrow

Lurker McLurkface Tier

Toogeloo
Xkfyu
Zulfy
Gee Willikers

shadow_step

LurkLite™ Tier:

Sensei
randomidget
Ranger
Klingoncelt

EBWOP[/quote]
You would think more people would be interested in playing this since it has so many interesting mechanics. Though maybe it creates more apathy.

I wouldn't be against lynching a lurker today. I can get my barring on many of the other players Day 2.

[Rylai and Lina]

I want to see Fire Assassin replacement catch up though.

~Rylai

[Varsoon]

I'm literally null on half of the players in this game. I don't like to advance this to a night phase without see them posting.

@Varsoon Bogre , H & M and so many slots are comletly inactive here. May I ask to increase the prod ratio ?

~Rylai

You can ask, but I am not changing my policy.
Consider that, for me, it is currently 1:40 AM at the end of a three-day holiday weekend;
I do not blame players for being less active during that period.

[Rylai and Lina]

<3 ok

~Rylai

[Reasonably Irrational]

Also, for the record, the main wagons of the game have been shinobi and shadow_step. So it's rather disingenuous of you to suggest that I'm actually dissuading any wagons that are actually being actively pushed to any strong degree. In addition, the fact that I want H&M dead at this stage in the game, in spite of including them in that list, is something you should THINK about more, rather than just assuming there's some sort of scum motivation. There's a reason why I am pushing that SPECIFIC slot in this game, among the group of lurky mclurkers: Elbirn was the scum partner of one of the heads in the last game we played(thus, I'd be willing to bet he'll be able to pick up on tonal differences between the way the HD head posted in their scum PT, and the way he posted in the main game), and because of my limited experience with both heads, among EVERYONE who is being lurky, they are the ones whose posting style is most likely to lead to actual content when they respond, whether they're scum or not. If they're town, they'll throw out real commentary about things. If they're scum, because it's what they'd do as town, they'll still throw out lengthy commentary, which is helpful whenever they flip.

let me requete the post in question again :

This game has too much low hanging fruit. Bogre, H&M, toog, pv, and now this new hydra. All apparently mislynch bait, either based on their past play, or simply because they're not giving anyone any reason to town read them.

This concerns me. They can't all be bad scum. :/

-Cerb

you called Bogre , H&M , toog , PV and I'm not sure why you added the new hydra there. all 4 are being stated as a concern from at least 1/3 of the players. the only wagons that are not your list are Shadow and Shinobi which is weird becuase Shadow was lurking as well and You never directly stated that your scumreading Shinobi.

My point here is more about H&M that your hydra is the one who was pushing it. calling your push a push on a low hanging fruit is a deep emotional play that is concerning me.

~Rylai

This is the problem with you FA. I don't make emotional plays. It's absolutely foreign to me. I've said this to you repeatedly, in multiple games, and in all of them but one I was town. Your method of attaching emotional impact and significance to posts simply doesn't work when it comes to my posts. I'll address this again momentarily.

Nahdia, I have a very specific composition in mind for the hunting party...but there is one spot of wriggle room. I'm trying to determine who else I have an Uber townread on to put there.

It's unlikely to be you because I really dislike the fact that you, as smart and observant as I know you are, didn't even consider the weirdness of me pushing a lurker over the easy mislynch, amd then didn't consider the obvious conclusion that given your respect for the heads of this hydra, we would obviously want to push elsewhere cause if we got shinobi lynched, we'd just he setting up ourselves and shadow_step for a very difficult rest of the game.

Like I have trouble believing you just....wouldn't even look at what other options I could have taken as scum in that spot.

-Cerb

See, now you're the one making assumptions. It's not that I

wouldn't

consider that, it's that I

didn't have to

. Given the motivation I absolutely could have dug into your play and sure, I probably would have come to that conclusion. But when it comes to questioning someone I know is smart, I prefer to leave defense to the defendant.

You outright said that you hadn't considered some things. I would have expected town you to have at least given a little thought to those things. At least enough that you could give more of an answer than "I hadn't considered that angle." I would have expected town you to consider a number of possible reasons why I could have done what I did, as both town and scum, and considered what my different potential responses would have meant.

That's what bothers me here, you just didn't do that at all. You didn't need to spoon feed me the possible responses, but I expected more thought on the subject from you.

Frozen, I don't have feelings about mafia. Its a dumb game that, like most games, isn't most worth emotional involvement. I guess I get irritated at people being dumb. I guess earlier I was sad about the fire assassin thing and disgusted at your attitude about it. I can't understand just not caring at all about having a negative impact on someone else's enjoyment. If I were emotional in mafia I'd want to lynch you for that, and that alone.

I'm not though, and don't have enough of a read on your slot to make that decision at this time.

not even close to what I said. I'm sure you didn't understood me at all.

I never said that emotional cases or attacking someone with emotional rage is a valid move here which makes the game unsatisfiable for everyone. I said considering how are people feeling while their posting and how are they trying to make others feel about their actions is a valid tell in mafia and has a place in game.

regarding to Fire assassin I repeatedly asked him to don't interpret my push on him personally and engage with me and to be honest i'm really angry and sad about his replace out and the fact I acted so harsh at the end with him but I strongly believe and I'm sure about it that i did nothing wrong during the time I was engaging with him. I did my best to stop him from taking everything personally and calling my push emotional which made that stupid fight.

I won't town read him for that and i won't let anyone advertise that as a town move (in any kind ) as well. for example you blaming me for what happened is what I call a try for making him look more town that i don't like at all. as I repeatedly told , I'm sorry for the last posts to him but I'm not sorry about how I felt and how I reacted and How I engaged becuase i did a pretty good job in just focusing on game and he failed.

and what is keeping you from having a read on my slot?

~Rylai

Alright, back to what I was talking about Frozen. I completely understand what you're saying. My point is I believe you, and everyone else who thinks they can deeply understand another persons emotional state and use it to somehow determine their alignment and sincerity in spite of the knowledge that people will be actively working to obfuscate that same information, are massively overestimating your own capabilities.

People are fucking complex. For example, there is NO WAY you could EVER properly evaluate my emotional state based on text alone. I deliberately and effortlessly appear emotional for emphasis and until I explain that, most people just accept it as being a legitimate show of emotion.

THAT is why emotion has no place in the game. Unless the person in question has the emotional maturity and self control of a rather small child, it's going to be useless. Any success you may have from it, will be of the crap shoot variety.

Now, regading the game relevance, this has come up twice now: you attributed an EMOTIONAL PLAY to someone who you should have realized NEVER does things with an emotional basis. Remove that "deeply emotional play" thought about the H&M post. What do you have left? Tell me your thoughts on it when you take a step outside of yourself and your emotional focus, and just look at the words alone. Look at it the way I look at everything.

The second time is right now. I don't care how you feel about *anything*. I'm telling you I'm disgusted by the post where you told him to get out of this game etc. That's all. It has nothing to do with anyones alignment. I don't expect you to care how I feel about your actions(because you shouldn't imo, the only person who can judge you, is you).

Now, was his behavior pro-town? Absolutely not. Obviously. Was it scummy? No. You were two people engaging in a moment of idiocy together.


-Cerb

[Rylai and Lina]

This is the problem with you FA. I don't make emotional plays. It's absolutely foreign to me. I've said this to you repeatedly, in multiple games, and in all of them but one I was town. Your method of attaching emotional impact and significance to posts simply doesn't work when it comes to my posts. I'll address this again momentarily.

There is no problem with me in this case. we can simply agree to disagree about this topic.

I used that tool in multiple games and in all of them even the one you were scum I was right.

~Rylai

[Reasonably Irrational]

This is the problem with you FA. I don't make emotional plays. It's absolutely foreign to me. I've said this to you repeatedly, in multiple games, and in all of them but one I was town. Your method of attaching emotional impact and significance to posts simply doesn't work when it comes to my posts. I'll address this again momentarily.

There is no problem with me in this case. we can simply agree to disagree about this topic.

I used that tool in multiple games and in all of them even the one you were scum I was right.

~Rylai

That's the thing though. There was nothing insincere about anything I said prior to your exit from that game. *shrug* I could go look back at the game, but it's probably not worth it when you're going to continue to believe what you believe.

I'm simply trying to help you stop misinterpreting my actions and their intent because you somehow think you understand me. You don't.

-Cerb

[Rylai and Lina]

Alright, back to what I was talking about Frozen. I completely understand what you're saying. My point is I believe you, and everyone else who thinks they can deeply understand another persons emotional state and use it to somehow determine their alignment and sincerity in spite of the knowledge that people will be actively working to obfuscate that same information, are massively overestimating your own capabilities.

People are fucking complex. For example, there is NO WAY you could EVER properly evaluate my emotional state based on text alone. I deliberately and effortlessly appear emotional for emphasis and until I explain that, most people just accept it as being a legitimate show of emotion.

THAT is why emotion has no place in the game. Unless the person in question has the emotional maturity and self control of a rather small child, it's going to be useless. Any success you may have from it, will be of the crap shoot variety.

The point is I don't care if you beleive me or not or you think there is only a logical aspect in this game like so many other people.

I simply think your wrong and I have no intention in proving that to you! Its just like to the fact that i think whoever is just interpreting the game by gut reads and their feelings are simply wrong.

I'm simply have a unique way of playing that I can prove is way way way way more accurate than both of the above at this point with all the games I played so far.

If you think there is no way for understanding emotions and you consider everyone as same in this ability your just being blind.

and again to my point we can simply agree to disagree.

~Rylai

[Rylai and Lina]

That's the thing though. There was nothing insincere about anything I said prior to your exit from that game. *shrug* I could go look back at the game, but it's probably not worth it when you're going to continue to believe what you believe.

I'm simply trying to help you stop misinterpreting my actions and their intent because you somehow think you understand me. You don't.

-Cerb

I'm trying to understand you better when i'm asking question or accusing you to doing something. their not always the way i'm thinking about you right now.

so the best way for you is to just answer what I'm asking you and cooperate instead of just trying to prove my methods won't work

~Rylai

[Reasonably Irrational]

Alright, back to what I was talking about Frozen. I completely understand what you're saying. My point is I believe you, and everyone else who thinks they can deeply understand another persons emotional state and use it to somehow determine their alignment and sincerity in spite of the knowledge that people will be actively working to obfuscate that same information, are massively overestimating your own capabilities.

People are fucking complex. For example, there is NO WAY you could EVER properly evaluate my emotional state based on text alone. I deliberately and effortlessly appear emotional for emphasis and until I explain that, most people just accept it as being a legitimate show of emotion.

THAT is why emotion has no place in the game. Unless the person in question has the emotional maturity and self control of a rather small child, it's going to be useless. Any success you may have from it, will be of the crap shoot variety.

The point is I don't care if you beleive me or not or you think there is only a logical aspect in this game like so many other people.

I simply think your wrong and I have no intention in proving that to you! Its just like to the fact that i think whoever is just interpreting the game by gut reads and their feelings are simply wrong.

I'm simply have a unique way of playing that I can prove is way way way way more accurate than both of the above at this point with all the games I played so far.

If you think there is no way for understanding emotions and you consider everyone as same in this ability your just being blind.

and again to my point we can simply agree to disagree.

~Rylai

This is a dumb distraction. It's not actually accomplishing anything in the game. Maybe you could actually do what I asked?

(I never said everyone's ability was the same. I said all of you are overestimating yourselves, and none of you are that capable. There is a significant difference between those two points, though the relevant thing for mafia is that no matter how capable you actually are, it's simply NOT good enough, and you are fooling yourself if you think any differently. Which is something you're allowed to do. Everyone is allowed to delude themselves.)

-Cerb

[Reasonably Irrational]

That's the thing though. There was nothing insincere about anything I said prior to your exit from that game. *shrug* I could go look back at the game, but it's probably not worth it when you're going to continue to believe what you believe.

I'm simply trying to help you stop misinterpreting my actions and their intent because you somehow think you understand me. You don't.

-Cerb

I'm trying to understand you better when i'm asking question or accusing you to doing something. their not always the way i'm thinking about you right now.

so the best way for you is to just answer what I'm asking you and cooperate instead of just trying to prove my methods won't work

~Rylai

I've answered everything you've asked which I've noticed.

When you say "x is y" regarding my play, when I KNOW that you are wrong, I'm going to tell you you're wrong FA. Every single time. So, every single time you try to attribute an emotional play to something I've said, I'm going to tell you you're wrong.

-Cerb

[Rylai and Lina]

Now, regading the game relevance, this has come up twice now: you attributed an EMOTIONAL PLAY to someone who you should have realized NEVER does things with an emotional basis. Remove that "deeply emotional play" thought about the H&M post. What do you have left? Tell me your thoughts on it when you take a step outside of yourself and your emotional focus, and just look at the words alone. Look at it the way I look at everything.

The second time is right now. I don't care how you feel about *anything*. I'm telling you I'm disgusted by the post where you told him to get out of this game etc. That's all. It has nothing to do with anyones alignment. I don't expect you to care how I feel about your actions(because you shouldn't imo, the only person who can judge you, is you).

Now, was his behavior pro-town? Absolutely not. Obviously. Was it scummy? No. You were two people engaging in a moment of idiocy together.

I'm saying if your point of view was that he is scum , you advertising that slot is just a low hanging fruit make no sense to me. I feel a little amount of hypocrisy and a huge amount of emotional manipulation becuase you right on both points (that H&M did nothing in game and they are a low hanging fruit) but I can't see a human being considering both at the same time and choosing the pushing way unless they have a higher agenda for doing that.

And I don't care about the fact you don't care about my feelings about anything! I will say them whenever they occur.

regarding The Fire Assassin , I didn't never ask him to leave the game before he asked to replace out and I never said I'm frustrated with you or I'm angry with you before he started to saying "I can't convince you that your scum" instead of answering me. So I guess I don't care about you being disgusted with me. both of those points stands. I simply hate that play and i won't play with him again (at least for a while) and I really wanted him gone after that replace out post and the way he was playing. be disgusted. I don't care.

I'm sorry for saying "Please shut up" or stuff like that though.

I'm saying his previous activity for interpreting all my points as an emotional rage and marking them Bullshit without responding them is scummy. Its like the third time i'm asking you about this and your branching back to his replace out. was this scummy or not?

and you claimed his role fishing wasn't scummy. wasn't it anti town though? whats your opinion about his play till that point? and don't branch back to the end point again please.

~Rylai

[Rylai and Lina]

This is a dumb distraction. It's not actually accomplishing anything in the game. Maybe you could actually do what I asked?

(I never said everyone's ability was the same. I said all of you are overestimating yourselves, and none of you are that capable. There is a significant difference between those two points, though the relevant thing for mafia is that no matter how capable you actually are, it's simply NOT good enough, and you are fooling yourself if you think any differently. Which is something you're allowed to do. Everyone is allowed to delude themselves.)

sure stop talking about it and it will be disappeared from game. your continuing to push this not me. I simply said we can agree to disagree.

~Rylai

[Rylai and Lina]

When you say "x is y" regarding my play, when I KNOW that you are wrong, I'm going to tell you you're wrong FA. Every single time. So, every single time you try to attribute an emotional play to something I've said, I'm going to tell you you're wrong.

I'm saying "x is y" I need you to explain to me that x is not y becuase z , t , u not criticizing my way of playing

ty very much. I know what I'm doing.

~Rylai

[Mixed6]

Aaand, SCENE!

Now that we're done with that the two of you can never get into it again unless you're actually using it to make a case for the game and the game can move on.

Albert B. Rampage will be by later to examine the list of players not pulling their weight from Nahdia and Rylai and Lina and lead us all to a glorious scum lynch. (As an aside from the Troll head, Rylai and Lina, was that what you meant to post as a list of those not pulling their weight? It looks like something else to me.) For now this Troll will head off to his cave for a good night's sleep.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Rylai and Lina]

I don't like to discuss his replace out

I want to discuss his play which I beleive was scummy and thats why I'm waiting for his replacement catchup.

oh and I thought he asked for my lynch prefers list. I will reread and pot what you want.

~Rylai

[Mixed6]

We are all waiting for your list.

As it stands I am ok with a lynch on Bogre , Shadow and Fire assassin slot but I want to see his replacement activity.

~Rylai

I'm not asking for your lynch pool. Read what I said. All you do is spam the thread, and you miss key posts directed at you, while blaming others of the same. I asked for the list of players you consider below the acceptable activity line.

[Reasonably Irrational]

Just for the record, btw, I think you, like many people, get lucky and tend to remember your successes more than your failures. This is a pet theory of yours, the idea that your playstyle is unique and SUPER DUPER EFFECTIVE, and your recollection of past events supports that. If that weren't a factor, I find it highly unlikely that you have a sample size of games large enough to definitely say "this particular aspect of my play, the bit that is wholly emotion based, is having a meaningful and positive effect on my reads."

I think you're just a good player, and this emotion crap has nothing to do with it. You use it to justify other subconscious connections you arrive at, and it works because people can't argue with someone who's trying to say they're showing a certain emotion in their play that gives them away. You subconsciously play well, and use intangibles to justify the conclusions your subconscious feeds to you. ^^

That's just my opinion though.

Anyways, so, umm, questions?

-Cerb

pedit: I'm not going to lie about the slot? I outlined earlier today, in my response to Nahdia, the exact thought process Elbirn and I had with regards to the H&M slot and why we chose to push it in spite of it being, as I said, "low hanging fruit", and why we chose to push IT over the other options. Did you read that post?

Ah, okay. I don't know? I don't know the nature of the relationship you two have. In a void, I would say ignoring your questions and attempting to make the game view you as unworthy of paying attention to is scummy, UNLESS he has experience with you and legitimately held those positions with regards to your thoughts. If he sincerely believed that you were simply making a ragey omgus type thing like he's seen you do before(and like I've seen you do before), then it's absolutely acceptable to dismiss you and your questions out of hand. It's NAI at best, scummy at worst if faked.

His role fishing didn't exist. You went off on what appeared to me to be an unsubstantiated sequence of thoughts. He said one thing, and you drew multiple unsubstantiated conclusions from it, and interpreted it as him role fishing. He wasn't role fishing. Nothing about what he said appeared to be role fishing to me. That's why that whole point is super wrong imo. I haven't gone back to reread that portion, but I remember reading what he said originally, and seeing you go off about role fishing, and thinking "FA is so wrong right now."

I told you why x is not y. It's not y because I DO NOT PLAY THAT WAY. Look at my hydra PT's with Drixx and wgeurts. You have like 5 novels worth of my internal thought process regarding games and how I approach them to examine to understand how I play. In all of that, YOU WILL NEVER EVER EVER see me reference doing something to cause an emotional response of some sort in someone. I am incapable of considering lines of play like that. They simply do not make sense to me.

I'll feign anger, to add emphasis. That's the closest I come to what you're accusing me of doing.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Irrational]

Aaand, SCENE!

Now that we're done with that the two of you can never get into it again unless you're actually using it to make a case for the game and the game can move on.

Albert B. Rampage will be by later to examine the list of players not pulling their weight from Nahdia and Rylai and Lina and lead us all to a glorious scum lynch. (As an aside from the Troll head, Rylai and Lina, was that what you meant to post as a list of those not pulling their weight? It looks like something else to me.) For now this Troll will head off to his cave for a good night's sleep.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Unfortunately, she has a tendency to attribute things which simply do not exist to my play. I can't say I'm not doing some intangible emotional thing when it's wholly a construct of her imagination. I can't prove the absence of a fundamentally illogical and intangible maneuver on my part. All I can do is repeatedly tell her that there is a substantial body of work, a lot of writing done from my perspective, covering multiple games and alignments, and during all that time, I have never even mentioned playing the way she tries to say I may be playing.

-Cerb

[Liger_Zero]

Huh.
That really seemed like a TvT

[Mixed6]

@Reasonably Irrational, that's not the moving on that the game should be doing now. I'm not currently judging anything that either of you said to determine alignments; it's not useful to me for this lynch, and if I need it later I'll look at it then. If you want to make a point to me, make it about Hastur and Muriel (who, incidentally, seem to have been on today, but not posting.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Reasonably Irrational]

And I mean it's not like you being town is the only explanation. Without hearing it from you, I could have taken my direction in any number of ways. Sure, Shinobi is the "easy mislynch" but the dichotomy between shadow_step and he was already there. You coulda been introducing a new candidate hoping to distract from both of them.

Which reminds me

Gigalurk Tier:

Bogre
Hastur & Muriel
PeregrineV
Heuristic_Arrow

Lurker McLurkface Tier

Toogeloo
Xkfyu
Zulfy
Gee Willikers

shadow_step

LurkLite™ Tier:

Sensei
randomidget
Ranger
Klingoncelt

EBWOP

You would think more people would be interested in playing this since it has so many interesting mechanics. Though maybe it creates more apathy.

I wouldn't be against lynching a lurker today. I can get my barring on many of the other players Day 2.[/quote]

I actually view the apathy of this game as coming from the fact that there is a group of players who have recognized one another as town rather strongly, quite early on. This has lead to a schism, where those players that are not part of said group, simply haven't been participating as much. That group of "ostracized" players, have moved to support R&L, the most vocal individual who wasn't within that group(and isn't within my town read group at least, but who I believe Mixed6 town reads) as huntmaster. I'm trying to decide if this move comes from scum attempting to prevent the growth of this town blow by causing friction through support for another option, or if it's from people who are just irritated at Mixed6 and myself moving to control the direction of the game and are thus simply rebelling against it. Or some other reason I haven't considered.

Liger_Zero: Why? What about that seemed TvT? It was 80% theory talk.

-Cerb

pedit: I believe I made all the points there are to make about Hastur and Muriel already, in the post where I outlined the exact conversation Elbirn and I had which led to our desire to have them lynched.

[Liger_Zero]

Huntmaster vote: Reasonably Irrational

VOTE: Hastur and Muriel

[Liger_Zero]

Liger_Zero: Why? What about that seemed TvT? It was 80% theory talk.

The conversation between you two might have been about theory and playstyle, but it came from a perspective of at least you two not seeming to know each others alignments. At least more so for you. Rylai maybe not, but due to the mechanics of this game I am unsure if that is even telling.

What are odds of multiple scum factions in this?

[Reasonably Irrational]

Liger_Zero: Why? What about that seemed TvT? It was 80% theory talk.

The conversation between you two might have been about theory and playstyle, but it came from a perspective of at least you two not seeming to know each others alignments. At least more so for you. Rylai maybe not, but due to the mechanics of this game I am unsure if that is even telling.

What are odds of multiple scum factions in this?

It's entirely possible and well within the lore, but the mod dislikes multiball. However, he is not averse to designing games against mod meta.

And, alright, fair point.

-Cerb