NY 120: Flash mafia 2. GAME OVER

[mikeburnfire]

I can understand how you could see it like that, but that's not the case. Look at it from a "MBF is town" point of view. Don't you think that my point holds merit?

If we are getting down to the end of the game, do you think scum want a power role like RB to stick around? Hell no, which is why the push to lynch him after he claimed is suspicious, especially because the reasoning sucked. It was garbage to act as if it was impossible that an RB and a JOAT could be in a large normal game. Hell, I just modded a MINI game that had a JOAT and roleblocker.

[mikeburnfire]

I would appreciate it, Parama, if you would withdraw your vote for now. I'm town, and I would really hate to be the mislynch that costs the game.

[Fishythefish]

Now, if IS is indeed scum, then Vollkan and Parama are town (IS has been buddying to Parama), and Fishy is likely one of his two scum mates. I speculate this based on his recent posts:
"You shouldn't be voting right now"
"Really, voting right now is a bad idea"
"The number of votes is disconcerting"
"*VOTE:IS*"
"No, wait, voting is bad. *UNVOTE*"
To me, this shows that Fishy knows that proper procedure is to NOT VOTE during LyLo until there is an agreement, but he does it anyway to distance himself from IS.

I voted in a moment of stupidity. Partly because of the other votes being thrown around, partly because IS is obvscum (neither of these is a valid reason to vote in lylo, but they added up to one in my head). I don't see how it would distance me from IS more than attacking him and calling for his lynch today and yesterday.

As for the JOAT/roleblocker thing: I thought it was very unlikely. I'd think it usual for a JOAT to have powers that aren't anywhere else in the game. Turns out I was wrong here, but I don't think that was unreasonable.

[Battousai]

Ok, looks like this is lylo, so I'll cut my short read even shorter and show you what I have:

Untrod → MBF: I believe scum vote for scum in RVS, and this is the only pair of votes in RVS (before people started posting semi-serious votes) in which both pairs are unflipped (I'd say at least 30% chance at least one of these two would be scum)

40) parama strawman's the both votes on him (though the second maybe closer to truth, the first has a reason) -scum points
42) volkan picks up on it +town points
45) parama claims poro should be voting him (though the only reason why I can see parama would think that is because parama is voting poro. Maybe a bit of a slip as he finds his own vote scummy). Though this also doesn't make sense in the fact that he seemed upset that he was being wagoned in the first place -scum points
52) jdodge (ythill) agrees with me on parama +town points
55) budja (IS) one liners are bad mkay? -scum points
64) parama see 55 -scum points
68) MBF soft claims/implies SK -null points but pointed out for immediate responses
74) fishy makes good point against predecessor +town points
77) fishy- “isn't something I'd expect from town. “ rings my scumdar, don't know why (it isn't proven that this comes from scum more than town, but it just feels scummy). Votes UT for essentially having diff scum tells/confusion -scum points
80) Budja sheeps fishy therefore through the transitive property -scum points
83) Richard calls vollkan, budja, poro, parama, and UT town. Therefore, at least 1 of these is scum
87) I disagree with parama on his point here. However he tries to give Richard an out/defends him (possible buddying up/later distancing from lynch) -scum points

So far, Parama is sticking out as having a scummy entry into the game. I think the best info comes from the beginning of the game, before pressure and the scum gets a good idea of how town interacts, and therefore this bolsters my suspicion of Parama. Obviously, I haven't read fully the game. I will, however, read the last 10 pages today and post about the lynching wagons later.

To answer fishys? question, I expected to be NK'd because I would NK'd me if I was scum. The scum have managed to bend the town to their will, guiding them into mislynches. They have a plan on how to win, and it is based around player interaction. A new set of eyes is a variable that could put a wrench in their plans.

Also, calm down about the unvoting, 1 vote on a person has very little chance of a scum quicklynch.

[mikeburnfire]

@Fishy
Fair enough. Stupidity is often confused a scumminess. But I think Luchris's lynch reflects on you the worst of all. You didn't want to lynch him, but hammered him after the claim. That's scummy for reasons I already explained. And you may have attacked IS yesterday and today, but your vote on him yesterday was an off-vote, and you jumped off to hammer Luchris, so it does seem to be more like distancing than actual suspicion. Regardless, my suspicion on you is fairly lukewarm, and I'd prefer an IS lynch before yours.

@Batto,
I'll let you finish your read before I comment because I'm interested in who your suspects are.

[Internet Stranger]

This is exactly what im talking about. MBF wants to lynch me because Luchris put himself out there as a scum so I went out there after him. I didnt see anyone else making any other effort other than going after me because I dont hold back. Im not afraid of being lynched, I just dont want this town to screw up now since we dont have any more buffer to work with.

I still think that we are being manipulated by Vollkan. Even Batt suspects something odd is going on, and thats what it is. Vollkan is sitting back and watching us hang each other while he sits behind the veil of some silly points system.

Why are you going to allow him to get away with such scumminess? I know for sure that im right about this. It doesnt matter that my predecessors were horrible. It doesnt matter that im vocal and aggressive. It doesnt matter that im not afraid to take risks. It doesnt matter that I go after people that make themselves look like scum. After all that, whats left? All the evidence against me is clearly circumstantial and fabricated by Vollkan as a setup.

No one has no good reason to go after me with the exception that Luchris screwed up and put himself out there as a scumbag.

[mikeburnfire]

MBF wants to lynch me because Luchris put himself out there as a scum so I went out there after him.

Actually, no. I went after Luchris too, as did some other guys. It's the way you've been playing that makes me suspect you.

I know for sure that im right about this.

Lies. Where is your proof? All I see is speculation. Do you have any better reasoning that "I don't like the score system" and "he didn't lynch a townie with the rest of us?"

No one has no good reason to go after me with the exception that Luchris screwed up and put himself out there as a scumbag.

1) Your case on Vollkan is terribly garbage.
2) You've tunnelvisioned on players all game
3) You act like you are always right, even though you're 0/2
There. Three reasons why you're scum, and they're all better than your reasons for going after Vollkan.

[Parama]

Hi Batt, you're not making me like that slot any better with your posting. Thanks

[Fishythefish]

All the evidence against me is clearly circumstantial and fabricated by Vollkan as a setup.

[mikeburnfire]

Why did you quote that?

[Internet Stranger]

"The way I have been playing"? That is such a fallacy. Youre faulting me for being an aggressive player. Your faulting me for being true to my convictions. Your faulting me for doing things my way. This is how I always have and always will do things. The best part of it is that it works. My success rate is astronomical. I catch scum constantly. Should I change my ways because its not popular? Im not here to win an election. Im not here to kiss babies and flirt with old women. Im here to catch scum. And oh man do I catch them often. Put the pressure on them, force them to make mistakes. Its really quite a basic approach when you get down to it. So how does that make me scum? Because im willing to pull it out and put it out there? Because I dont fear reprisal in the few cases that im wrong? Im not going to cower and hide and let the scum take over. Never. I will root out the scum, I will cleanse this town.

0/2? That ridiculous. Thats revisionist history at best and pure slander at its worst. I didnt start that wagon on Oman. I championed the one on Luchris. Like I said plenty of times already. Luchris put himself out there as scum and had every opportunity and multiple lawyers come to aid him, and he still decided to chose the path of villainy. The fact that youre blaming me proves my point even further. Youre using the fact that Luchris acted like a scumbag against me. Its the exact same thing that Vollkan is sitting there trying to set up. MBF, youre either complicit, or youre just a stooge being used by Vollkan. Ythill's death further proves that point.

The fact remains that Vollkan gets to sit back quietly and reaps the benefits of all the chaos he is causing. Comes out, spins a little web of lies and lets everyone else do the dirty work for him. Why would anyone allow themselves to be manipulated so obviously like that. Look back at all the history of this game. Look at what Vollkan has done, the evidence is right there. Im not going to spoonfeed you anything. Im not going to pull out all sorts of classical accusations to throw his way. This aint a court. You cant tell me that he hasnt been sitting back and masterminding everything and using his point system as a crutch and a shield to hide behind. Its right THERE. The only reason anyone is coming after me is because its been setup for you to do so. Dont fall for it.

The scum is Vollkan, im sure of it. I dont see any other case of anyone else avoiding the spotlight. Everyone is here in the thick of things trying to find scum. Vollkan just sits back and lets it happen. Thats what scum do. Sit back and take advantage of townies. Nudge them in the direction they want. Dont you see thats what he has been doing with the list all along. Even is if isnt obvious, the list serves to massage your subconscious. Like when you repeat things over and over to brainwash people. Thats what he does everytime he puts out a list. Why are you letting this maniacal pied piper lead you astray? Vollkan is the scum, are those not good enough reasons for you? You rather go after the person actively trying to make a difference? (That be me?) This town was dead quiet when I got here. Vollkan surely enjoyed that. If he doesnt have to say anything, the less can be used against him. Its a scumploy, its really quite simple. You all should be seeing it, why the strong denial. Dont worry about your pride, just listen and see for yourself. We will bask in the glory of victory once the scum is rooted out.

Vollkan is the scum.

[Battousai]

Hi Batt, you're not making me like that slot any better with your posting. Thanks

Since you haven't given a reason why you don't like my posts, I must assume it is because you don't like it that I called your early D1 actions scummy. Since you aren't defending against it, and instead make a vague threat against me (in that if I continue posting that you are scummy, you will vote me), I must assume you are scum.

[Battousai]

EDIT: Forgot to add in that I'm almost done reading, but it will get done soon as my paper just got finished.

[Fishythefish]

Why did you quote that?

Don't actually know. I was not really in a fit state to post. I guess I thought it nicely demonstrates IS's habit of saying whatever it takes to drive whatever wagon he's picked.

Little access for 48 hours. I'll be around, but won't have much time for the game.

[Internet Stranger]

Yea, you demonstrate that I have a penchant for uncovering the truth. That I am confident in my choices. That I know for sure Vollkan is scum. Yes, youre right, I know Vollkan is scum and he should be lynched. I will keep on him until he cracks and makes the one mistake that will get the rest of you to vote for him.

Im not switching my vote, Vollkan is scum.

[mikeburnfire]

vote: InternetStranger

[mikeburnfire]

Relevant:

Like when you repeat things over and over to brainwash people.

Right now, Vollkan is clearly the scummiest.

I got me the Vollkan scum pegged right there.

The scum is Vollkan, im sure of it.

Vollkan is the scum.

[vollkan]

Vollkan, youre still using the useless point system to try an incriminate me, arent you? Thats how its relevant. Its like youre some catholic school nun handing out demerits to the kids, trying to pump them up full of guilt and repentance. Everytime you pump in points into your arbitrary system as if youre collecting points in a video game, youre throwing another accusatory barb in my direction.


All youre doing with your system is creating an arbitrary crutch to lean on to excuse your actions. Its not pre-commitment, its the equivalent of the curtain for the Wizard from the Wizard of Oz. You really believe that you can excuse such blatant scummy behavior by using a railed system? How can you use points that you set arbitrarily as a method to auto-determine your actions when you yourself are setting the points? Its crap, plain and simple.

Confining my response to game-relevant stuff, rather than a theory defence of my system: You are again attacking me for an aspect of my play which I do regardless of alignment. Enough said. It's even worse that you are completely smearing the system as some ploy to "pump them up full of guilt and repentance" when any reasonable observer, even those who detest my system (of which there are many), would know that it's simply the way that I express my suspicions

Youre right, it is a conspiracy argument. I already see through your trappings and if im not the only one not falling for it, then so be it. In the end, I shall have my vindication when you turn up to be scum. You cant sit there like some Ken doll, throw a wink and a smirk and just try to dismiss me and expect that to be the end of it. You expect me to con jure up your own defense for you either. All youre basically saying is that you get to lean on some point tally that you created, so you have free range to do whatever you want.

I dont need to create some detailed point by point analysis. All youre doing is trying to put the burden on me to do all the work, so you can just say "No, I didnt" and demand for more. Did you not see how Ythill was trying the same on me the previous day and I didnt bite? Its quite unfortunate that I was wrong then, but im definitely not wrong now.

Its quite simple really. You KNEW that Luchris was a townie, so of course you didnt want to change your points crutch around, because that would make you look too obvious. So by keeping your points inflated to MBF, you have an excuse to not be involved in the lynch. Like I said in the first sentence, you cant suddenly use hindsight glasses against me because only scum knew Luchris was innocent. Which is precisely what youre doing now. Of course youre not going to depart from a established meta, you purposely set it up to be that way in the first place. That means that there is no analysis to be made, you cant analyze made up scoring.

Why should I wait around and let you gather crazy fervor against me first? Youre the one trying to make me look bad and I can clearly see it, even if no one else does. Like I said earlier, you cant just wave your hand around like some jedi mind trick, throw a wink and a smile and assume that what I say doesnt have merit when it clearly does.

This isnt anything new, I am a constant daytime target. I been called an easy lynch before because Im not afraid to lay it out there for all to see. Im here to catch scum and its plain to see that youre trying to set me up here. I dont need to sit here and wait for you to shoot me. I see the threat against me and this town and its easy to see that you have been part of the scumteam all along.

My vote stays, im sure on this one.

tl;dr version:

My argument is crap, but I've got great rhetorical skills.

Vollkan, I agree that your point system is no good. I can understand doling out points for scummy behavior, but if you reduce it to a point system, it loses a lot of context that is subject to change. Also, you never seem to subtract points that you have given, so when I've explained my actions that seemed scummy, I don't change in your ranking like I should. Additionally, the difference in points that you have assigned is very slim, so much that a few townie mistakes or speaking missteps could swing your opinion.

I don't want a theory debate, but for my interest I would like to know what "context" you think it ignores.

Where did you explain your actions?

As for the difference being slim: the point you make here can equally be said of any player. A few missteps might throw their suspicion onto a townie. As always, this relies on me not having the bad judgment to see mistakes as scummy.

Relevant:

Like when you repeat things over and over to brainwash people.

Right now, Vollkan is clearly the scummiest.

I got me the Vollkan scum pegged right there.

The scum is Vollkan, im sure of it.

Vollkan is the scum.

And, more broadly, his "case" on me to date is repeating in a hundred different ways the same BS unfalsifiable conspiracy theory.

[Internet Stranger]

The fact remains that Vollkan still tries to dismiss my claims with a chortle and a smirk. You cant sick back, wave your hand like some Jedi mind trick and expect everything to simply go away. The fact is that youre trying to smear me here and making me look bad. You claim thats the way you play, but the exact same thing can be said against me. Except im here actively trying to catch scum. I dont hold back, I dont throttle down. Vollkan just sits back and watches the townies attack each other until he and his scumbuddies come out on top. He uses his points system to hide behind.

The case against me is baseless. Vollkan throws a wink a smile, says "no im not" and suddenly people vote for me. Its ridiculous. I have done nothing except going after people that act like scum. How does that make me guilty?

Im out there in the open. Vollkan lurks.
Im actively looking for the scummiest player to lynch. Vollkan joins useless wagons.
I have nothing to hide and always explain my actions. Vollkan says that he does what the point system he himself generates says he does. He might as well just say that he is following orders.

Im the one actively looking for scum and I found me one in Vollkan.

Vollkan rarely posts.
Vollkan stays on the offwagons because his point systems said so.
Vollkan is playing a shadow game. He doesnt say much, doesnt provide much context, this way there is nothing to incriminate him with.
That is classical scumplay. Lets his henchmen do all the work and he walks away as the scumwinner.

[Fishythefish]

@IS: why didn't you say a single word about this super-strong scumread before today?

mbf has now been on 2 votes for a while without being hammered. If mbf is town (big if), one of UT and Parama must be scum, and probably both.

[mikeburnfire]

Vollkan is NOT scum. He tried to derail the wagon on Luchris as soon as he claimed Roleblocker. A mafia would either (A) push even harder to get the power role lynched or (B) not say anything, and let the town do it.

Your mantra of "Vollkan was setting me up" is bullcrap. Vollkan wasn't voting you yesterday, I was still higher on his list. If anyone is setting you up, it's Fishy. You know, the guy who expressed a strong desire to lynch you as soon as day began and said he would have voted you if not for LyLo reasons. Why aren't you addressing him?

If mbf is town (big if), one of UT and Parama must be scum, and probably both.

No, I disagree. I think it's possible for UT to be scum (WHERE ARE THE REASONS HE IS NOT? I AM STILL WAITING, PEOPLE!), but I sincerely doubt that Parama is scum at this point. The rally to lynch me is great, and the scum are probably waiting for that third vote before jumping, which is why I'm a bit uncomfortable being so close.

[Internet Stranger]

Fishy, I had a scumread on Luchris yesterday, obviously. The fact that he came up innocent and Ythill's death cemented my suspicions of Vollkan.

MBF, does that mean that the scum team is Parama, UT and Vollkan? It would explain why youre still alive, wouldnt it?

[mikeburnfire]

What part of

"Vollkan is NOT scum"

and

"I sincerely doubt that Parama is scum at this point"

sounded like

"the scum team includes Parama and Vollkan"

to you?

[Battousai]

Two parter for those who don't like to read wall posts:

I ISO'd volkan first, as to see what IS is talking about

Early game seems protown. Here's his first post table, updated to what it was at lynch:

Untrod Tripod55 ->50- unknown
Porochaz53 -town
RichardGHP53 -town
Espeonage51 -town
Oman50
Ojanen50
mikeburnfire50
Ythill Jdodge50
Parama50
Luchris50
SeolBudja50
Fishythefish50

Now D1 wagon shows that an unknown escaped lynch and was replaced by a townie. (see wagon analysis post)

Unofficial list for D2, taken from points posted:

MBF 54 unknown
Oman 52 town
Espy 51 town
UT 50
Ojanen 50
Ythill 50
Parama 50
Luchris 50
Seol 50
Fishy 50

I don't like is ISO 47/48. In 47, he votes Oman (the currently tied with UT for head wagon) on the basis of the fact that ythill put the two leading wagons to 3-3 and he wanted Oman to respond to a question he quoted from Ythill about 15 minutes earlier. I guess in order to get him to respond. In the same post he gives Oman a boost in points as the second highest at the time was 51, thus making him the “scummiest” of his suspects.

In 48, he gives MBF +4, thus making him the scummiest. He refused to vote him because he didn't know the current VC, which if he took 3 minutes, he could deduce as the last VC was a page earlier.

The VC was this, for clarification:

Oman (4): Espeonage, Ojanen, Luchris, Vollkan
Untrod Tripod (2): Fishythefish, mikeburnfire
MBF (2): Ythill, Oman
Luchris (1): UT

not voting (2): Oman, Seol, Parama

With 11 players it is 6 to lynch.

If he unvoted and switched to MBF, it would be Oman 3, UT 2, MBF 3. MBF would be tied and have a chance at lynch, so would Oman who he gladly put into the head spot. The only person in danger that Vollkan hasn't said was scummy was UT. Again. I think this was a guise to defend UT from a potential lynch.

D3 points

MBF 58 unknown
UT 55 unknown
IS 55 unknown
Luchris 54 town
Ythill 52 town
Espy 51 town
Parama 50
Fishy 50

[Battousai]

D1 VC:

RichardGHP

(5):

Porochaz,

mikeburnfire,

Oman

, Untrod Tripod, Vollkan
Untrod Tripod (5):

Luchris, RichardGHP, Fishythefish, Espeonage, Ythill

Ythill (2): Ojanen,

Parama

Porochaz

(1): Seol

not voting (0):

D2 VC:

Oman (5): Espeonage, Luchris,

Vollkan, Internet Stranger, mikeburnfire,

Ythill

mikeburnfire (1):

Oman

Luchris

(1): Untrod Tripod
Untrod Tripod (1):

Fishythefish

not voting (2): Parama,

Ojanen

D3 VC:

Luchris

(4): Untrod Tripod, Internet Stranger, Parama, mikeburnfire,

Fishythefish

Internet Stranger (2):

Ythill, Luchris

mikeburnfire (1): Vollkan

not voting (1):

Espeonage

What I'm seeing from all this, is a connection between Vollkan and UT. Volkan's actions have seemed scummy as well, starting at ISO 47/48 you can see that he was trying NOT to get someone lynched and seemed to make an excuse up to add points in order TO get someone lynched. Looking at the D1 VC, I can pretty much guarantee there is at least one scum of the MBF, Volkan, and UT.


MBF: Scum wouldn't do this... mantra is BS. Scum would if they knew the wagon that would replace it is town. They get bonus town points for unsuccessfully derailing a town PR lynch, and there would still be a mislynch. Win, Win.