NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[Ms Marangal]

Those of you who have played with SSK before are welcome to tell me why the below aren't good reasons to townread him.

• Here are some posts that use emphatic wordings I find somewhat more common from town than scum:

  WHAT IS UPPPP? SSK HERE REPLACING ROFLWAFFLE.
  Tammy=Uber Town
  

  Vote Korean BBQ

  I'm always ultra defensive, and I always give a readslist when I replace in. I always talk theory with ffery. For all alignments. None of these are indicative of my alignment.
  And yes, you are misreading me. Heavily.

• "Don't you want to know why I'm voting you?" is a towntell because town believe their vote Matters and others should care about it whereas scum are usually happy to be ignored.

  GIF, why are you not curious about why I voted you?

• He actually considers a response to him, and instead of inventing a new justification or going somewhere else he stays where he is because it's a :real: gut read:

  Hypocrisy isn't a scumtell.
  I like serious votes. But thanks to that explanation, I'll rescind my attack on your reasonless votes being scummy.
  Fair points there.
  Meh yeah. I guess I wasn't giving a wide enough scope. But as I said, it's mostly gut.

• Immediate and emphatic reactions tend to come from town, unless something high-stress is going on:

  PEdit: See! That post right above me does the same exact thing! Oh "They look like I'm scum talking to town. Or that's really weird sentence right there, SSK". I see your reasoning right in those lines of how exactly I'm sucm. Stop trying to vote low hanging fruit, Ceph. I was townreading you earlier. Now, I dunno.

• He shows a decent chunk of believable scumhunting effort here:

  It's a Pieguy ISO Dive everyone!
  

  Spoiler: Pieguy ISO Dive

  Total Contribution= 64 posts
  Average Player Contribution=1050/20=53 posts= PASS
  
  POSTS:

  warning: lazy as fuck catchup post so I probably missed a lot of shit
  
  22 Sakura scum. I'm having a shitton of trouble believing this post came from the same person who always preaches "reasonless RVs are bad", and MC Maraca hadn't posted yet, so I don't see how it's not an RV.
  47 giving me weird vibes. it seems really really serious compared to the rest of the thread. not sure how comfortable I feel with that given he's townreading geists for being "at ease". however this is gut and looking back on it later I think this makes him seem town. it seems he legitimately wants to get the game going already
  55 tammy town
  70 goodmorning town
  139 I agree MC seems town
  173 I'm liking BRO's willingness to work with a mutual townread here. however, I still have paranoia from imperishable night. he doesn't seem like he's trolling as much here, which may be a good sign
  184 goodmorning even more town
  238 MC town
  256 give me bourbon plz
  
  this is really weird for me since I still feel like a lot of the game is in the fucking around stage. anyone who knows me knows that I generally get going immediately. oh well
  I'm also not liking Ceph atm, but it's mostly gut and I can't be assed to go back and find anything specific ._.
  
  284 I'm kind of ass backwards skipping over a lot of specific shit here, but I'm especially curious about this
  312 this, I grok. fuck it, BRO can go into the townpile
  326 not liking this argument. Brian hasn't even posted in like forever, so he didn't really have much of a chance to push anyone else at all 0.0
  340

  Except where it doesn't make sense, I keep my stances pretty transparent.

  huh
  362 what the fuck is that vote. he posts all these giant reads walls then votes someone who he hasn't even mentioned? dafuq
  365 ok finally smth apparent I noticed about Cephrir - he didn't out his opinion the deals when the first one came up and all of a sudden he does it on this one? it's convenient how it happens to be when people are saying Nacho looks scummy. this makes me think this read was based off convenience and not legitimate scumhunting
  415 huh I'm seeing what you all are about Generic - in fast and furious he seemed pretty adamant about getting Telo lynched
  445 Generic can be town too
  451 "hey I'm just going to buddy everyone who's scumreading me so I won't get found out"
  463 what the hell is that I thought for some reason maraca was townreading Tammy I need to go back and look at this again
  546 I don't like this on a playstyle level. in practice it's probably not alignment indicative, but read the fucking game make areal vote
  
  haven't seen anything at all since 546. probably bc I'm being a lazy fuck atm. I'll just wing it from here and hope for the best
  
  other things of note, KoreanBBQ has a shitton of content and there's nothing in there that gave me a townread on them. feeling kind of icky about them atm

  Fairly typical catchup post. Wish the statements had more behind them, but whatevz, mine was worse.
  

  town
  1. Tammy
  2. geists (fferyllt + Natirasha)
  4. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal)
  10. pieguyn SonOfZeus
  
  probably town
  5. F-16_Fighting_Falcon
  6. Generic
  11. BROseidon
  14. goodmorning
  
  null
  3. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665)
  8. MafiaSSK roflwaffles
  9. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon)
  12. Brian Skies
  16. pitoli
  18. DOMO
  
  lurkfuck/unsorted
  7. roflcopter
  17. talah
  20. Desperado
  
  scum
  13. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain)
  15. Sakura Hana
  19. Cephrir
  
  

  @EVERYONE:

  if one of my townreads or null-town reads is wrong who do you think it probably is?
  
  

  @KoreanBBQ:

  what's up with that statement of how Varsoon is scum if he had less than 2 posts at whichever point? I'm especially curious
  
  let's fucking go \:D/

  That's a pretty awesome readslist. And it has questions. A reason given with each would be cool, because I know that these can be faked but the depth of the sorting, almost counteracts that.
  

  also
  

  vote: Sakura

  
  GET READY I'M GONNA TAKE YOU ON A WILD RIDE

  Nevermind that. Never gives a reason for voting. Sure in future posts there is justification but future justification can retroactively prove pieguy's vote.
  
  Like when pieguy does try:

  1. Because it's Maracabd and us 3 go ways long.
  
  2. Who's the one WIFOMing here?

  1. see that's my point. given you always say that reasonless RVs are bad, why wouldn't you just out the reason at the time when you made the RV?
  
  2. this is one of the most deflective answers I've ever seen and doesn't actually answer my point. not to mention you don't even say how my post is WIFOM. can you explain plz? also, I'd appreciate if you could answer the question directed towards "EVERYONE" in big bold letters at the end of my catch-up post

  1. I didn't have one at the time, I just wanted to leave a post in the thread.

  I don't get it. can you explain further
  

  2. You're the one that's bringing it WIFOM about it, I repeat, why wouldn't I do something I normally do as town when I'm scum rather than something different?

  no I pointed out a valid reason and you're the one who chose to put up a WIFOM defense by going "why would I do xxx as scum"
  

  @KoreanBBQ: what's up with that statement of how Varsoon is scum if he had less than 2 posts at whichever point? I'm especially curious

  Simple. I've never read Varsoon wrong. Before that post, if most of the posts were from Varsoon, that would be way off his usual townplay and would be most likely scum.

  why do you have mac as scum?
  
  I haven't looked into SC's posts more but if Varsoon has made more posts since then how's your read on him coming along?
  
  which of my townreads do you think is wrong?

  It's just questions towards Sakura. It's never definitive. That's why the vote exists as a definite statement that you think lynching the person will be beneficial towards town. But I digress.
  

  anything specific you like about him?

  @BBQ:

  what are your thoughts on Cephrir?
  
  

  @Cephrir:

  what are your thoughts on BBQ?

  I like these two posts though. They're genuine and prove a benefit towards town.
  

  that doesn't really help me >_<
  it reminds me of how zmuffin and you had the least specific townreads on each other in imperishable night, and you both were scum 0.0

  Your seemingly-blank-looking-null read on Casso doesn't help anyone either ♫
  (a.k.a. Why null?)

  he's been pushing people all game but I think he does that as both alignments so I don't wanna write him off as town just for that. I'm not sure I like his jump on pitoli. it seems really weird considering he hadn't included pitoli in his reads list wall before then. aside from that, he's in kind of the same boat you're in where htere's a lot of content and I'm concerned that none of it makes me wanna townread him. I moved him up to null bc I've liked his pushes on people, but I'm keeping my eye on him
  
  also, how the fuck am I supposed to get a better read on Sakura when she only had like 3 posts? if it seems too easy it's bc I had to make a judgment based off hardly anything. her few posts that she had lean scum and that's all there is to it

  @F16: the first part was due to this

  At least two of them are not Town.

  I liked this stance and how she's being upfront about questioning shit that she thinks is incorrect
  
  the second part was this

  On pure odds I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you.
  1. It's not a stat course.
  2. Odds distract people.
  3. Unlikely =/= impossible, and it's not even that unlikely.

  it's another stance that shows she's holding true to her beliefs
  
  my read on BRO is a mixture of both of those things. there was another game we played where I had him as null-town almost entirely based off gut and he was scum (thankfully on d2 I turned that shit right around). some of the stuff he's done in this game, combined with the fact that it doesn't seem to match that game, makes me feel somewhat comfortable with him as town atm
  
  generally it means that, at the time of that post, I have that person as town for various reasons. it can be bc of a certain post or a culmination of a bunch of things up to a certain post
  
  in fast and furious Generic was town. he had a scumread on Telo, he wasn't backing down, and he seemed set on getting her lynched (eventually she got lynched and she was town). so I agree that the fact that he's more agreeable here seems odd

  K, pieguy. I get it you're town.
  
  Keeps doing townie stuff for a while until here:

  yo I'm town as fuck. wanna work together?
  
  in the meantime, why do you think geists's posts feel off?

  Mentioning that you're townie, even if it is true, is always scummy. And in addition, trying to force a townblock is scummy, but I mean, I guess it could be town? I dunno.
  
  And then a couple posts later comes this even worse post:

  #swagginwagon
  

  vote: BBQ

  Which is just sooo off from pieguy. Sheeping? Getting on a wagon? With a complete lack of reasoning or even interaction with BBQ, beforehand? I don't get it.
  
  Then there are these two posts:

  what the hell is going on I don't even

  talah where the hell have you been o.o

  That feel like an odd form of buddying/ pieguy not being himself. Pieguy asks questions. There were no questions directed to the players motives here.
  
  But all returns to normalcy in the following post:

  idk I was townreading her but I'm starting to have reservations about her too
  
  Tammy brings good points. also, I find it awkward she seemed really excited when I replaced in and she hasn't interacted with me at all since then. that plus Generic's point makes me think some of the stuff she's done so far is fake 0.0 I'm being a lazy fuck right now so I haven't really tried to do any formal sorting, but that's where I'm at
  
  what do you think about Sakura so far?

  good town stuff.
  
  And that carries on for a while. Lots of questions, lots of reasoning.
  
  Then the only other posts that bother me are recent:

  While it may be easier to townhunt, how do you not get in a cycle of confbias? Especially when someone reaches the point where they can be on your townbloc, then you're looking for why they can still be town and not why are they scum. It's less effective and more prone to bias.

  do you ask this every single time someone forms a townbloc or what
  
  like whats the point of this question. do you srsly think forming townblocks is alignment indicative?
  

  As for the basis of my reads, there were no particulars otherwise I would have mentioned them. Most of them were just my gut feelings. Take that as you will.

  are you at all confident in any of those reads
  
  I'm ok with this
  

  vote: SSK

  Here because the vote has had no reasoning for pieguy to go after me ever. And then continues as such.

  I'm pretty confident with my gut? It's usually right, but I like to have substance behind it. So not all the way confident.
  But why are you voting me? What makes you think I'm being scum?

  you don't seem confident @_@ mostly bc you didn't mention anything until you actually gave said reads list, and your tone in 1042
  
  it looks like you're just trying to coast through D1 by asking random questions. I'm not entirely sure on you being scum, but screw it
  
  now that I think about it tho, I made the same mistake with you on imperishable night

  Confidence is apparently a scumtell, not giving reasons in a readslist is also apparently a scumtell even though pieguy dd the same.
  And I ask questions. That's how I hunt. Just like you.
  Your case on me is bs

  
  QED: I just wasted an hour. Pieguy's town. But has a few odd quirks that give it reasonable doubt.

• "I don't understand this wagon" is a way of phrasing things I've noticed I employ much more as town than scum.

  I don't see why StuffedCrust is the leading wagon. They're pretty town IMO.

• This is believable; "I am so not getting lynched today" is the kind of thing a Real PR who expects their role to keep them alive says:

  Okay. So there's not enough time now and I am so not being the lynch of the day.
  
  

  I am the doctor of this game.

  
  
  Scum can kill me fine, but I am not getting policy/deadline lynched for lurking again. Not as the doctor.

• The "I think Geists is a great asset to the town but not a good choice for town leader / what masons?" line of thought sounds genuine.
  It particularly sounds :Unguided: so I'll be impressed if it turns out to be a scum-QT-product.

  I don't think geists should be given the trust as being such an official town leader. Natirasha is very reactive, and that's really not good when deciding on a very rushed or heated lynch.

  There are no such things as official town leaders. There are leadership vacuums and there are players (usually multiple players in most games) who fill them. And they do that only with the cooperation of the majority of players.

  No shit. Do tell me more about how mafia is played.
  What I was doing was indirectly commenting on the quote that you quoted. Providing my own opinion on why thinking of geists as a town leader is badidea.

  Who did you protect last night?

  You. Because you are an important asset to town.

I hope you have all enjoyed my Radiance.
I hope I have not embarrassed myself by defending scum.

I was amused by this post, and this has the Llmarble quirkiness that I enjoyed in the other game, and the llamarble quirkiness that I had read as town while still having a real nice summary of his thoughts of the game.

[Ms Marangal]

I don't take issue with people scumreading me at this point; if you meant "you're all talk this game therefore you're scum" then that is an okay deduction.

Can we confirm once and for all who MC claimed masons with?
I'm open to a massclaim here; we're clearly already down our two best roles and are going to have to lynch scum today and go it mountainous.

VOTE: Cephrir
For lack of a better way of describing the pattern, he lacks manliness.
Also he has a lot of posts which have "to exist" as a purpose.
And there are lots of little 'yup this is scum's in there.
I actually feel pretty good about this one.

but this is pretty clearly town, and usually I really struggle with reading the less active players because they are... less active, but here is a pretty genuine statement that's pretty hard to make as town.

I also kinda like his reason on Ceph vote even though I don't really agree with it (and it's something I have to revisit at some point, but at current I think Titus is doing that slot, good)

[Ms Marangal]

VOTE: MafiaSSK
Even if he turns out to be town he deserves to die for cheese nonsense & "I feel like lurking."
We can add more pages to the thread if for some reason you think that will help town, but putting off a lynch with clear intent to eventually execute it isn't productive.
There are too many possibly wrong assumptions (an NK won't help us figure anything out, SSK is scum) and too much benefit to reducing the number of scum as quickly as possible.

and this is pretty ballsy, if scum because he isn't one of the most active people in this game, and he risks drawing a "You're being a hypocrite" attack regardless of SSK claiming scum


I think I'm done, and I apologize for the spam-posts, but it should be fixed soon when I get my computer back!

[Ms Marangal]

Vig is anti-town.

I have about as much respect for this statement as "Creationism should be taught in schools so students can see both theories."
Vig is more powerful than cop. You can wrongly argue against that and I won't be mad, but "vig is anti-town" is actively irritatingly stupid.

I am trying to dig into this game and find the thread of play, but the rush of motivation has been slow to come. I shall make another attempt tomorrow.

Oh, I like this post and I can definitely sympathize with him here. I'm not really sure what it is (might be conf. town laziness, or something) but I find it hard to read the game, and scum-hunt within it.

[Norlkaz]

I'm sorry for not towning harder and causing people to spend scumhunting time reading me. Tomorrow I'll invest a real timechunk.
I think Titus' biggest strength as scum is an earnest blobby accusations style. I would class him as good scum though not a strong debater.
In ASOIAF his train of thought didn't hold together at all; this may be something that also happens when he's town.

[Generic]

Mara, you seem to have decided to take the exact opposite stance on almost everyone f16 has a lean of scum on.

What's your read on f16 and who are your top scum reads?

Has anyone found out why bert and cephrir were forcibly removed from the game? They were two people I had suspicions on and suddenly they are out, it feels off.

[geists]

I think Zmuffin is scum.

[zMuffinMan]

i think you could be wrong

[zMuffinMan]

you still didn't get around to telling me how Nacho and I hadn't discussed you.

ok. where are you at with your read on me?

He's not going to try to explain the case beyond 'gut'

i

have

explained the read, though. several times. it is essentially "gut" but it's gut based on the way you have (or rather, nacho has) approached reads in this game. it's not what i expect coming from town-nacho and i've gone over this a fair bit. none of nacho's recent posts make me feel any better, and i'm really null on everything you're doing right now. ffery (and some others) seem to disagree, and every time i ask why, i'm met with either a vague response or something that i can't really argue against (like "tone").

[geists]

i think you could be wrong

I could be. I literally woke up in the middle of the night to post that. And the thought I woke up with was "Cash Cabd". You had no trouble figuring me out in that game. Ever since then, Every game we've played where you haven't been able to develop a read and you've kept me in the unsure or leaning scum group, you've been scum. You were on that trajectory in this game until Domo outed his role and results.

[zMuffinMan]

i think you're misremembering things. you were one of my first town reads, but iirc, it had very little to do with your posts and everything to do with posts i identified as nati's. there are some things i remember liking about your play, but it was a read mainly based on nati.

[Sakura Hana]

Indeed, I just went through muffin's ISO to confirm, it's as easy as ISOing him and Ctrl+F geists to know he's been townreading you.

[KoreanBBQ]

I don't take issue with people scumreading me at this point; if you meant "you're all talk this game therefore you're scum" then that is an okay deduction.

I'm sorry for not towning harder and causing people to spend scumhunting time reading me.

You seem so laid back and apologetic in these two posts but why..

and then norl

If a serious attempt comes I shall eat you alive, even if I have to break character.

get mad and threaten me here?

[goodmorning]

Most of the stuff in the wall is stuff I think we just disagree on.
I've picked out the bits that I think could use a bit more discussion.

As to your point, Muffin didn't abdicate responsibility so much as admit a present sense of uncertainty, based on the lack of evidence on your slot either way.
He didn't say he was stopping trying to read you. He said he couldn't make a coherent case at this time.

I disagree here also. Falcon didn't abdicate responsibility with reading me because he at least claimed he could read the slot through Nacho (I'll admit I think that feels weak simply because...well, there's a lot of Nacho to read and if he was going to get a read then...pony up big man.)
Muffin didn't do that, he basically said 'my case is gut and I don't feel like debating it with geist because I think their case is gut too and I suppose we just disagree' and he does this...as part of a stated push on this slot.

So, he thinks we're scummy.
He's going to vote us.
He's not going to try to explain the case beyond 'gut'
He is going to attack us for...well, what is in my opinion an action he decided happened with no evidence to support him.
And he's okay with that as the way of life in this reality.
I think that's abdicating everything and the kitchen sink - where do you see him owning to anything besides 'I want to lynch them'?

So you think "I want to lynch them" isn't a strong enough stance in and of itself? I disagree.
As for owning things:
-owned the stance with a vote
-owned the fact that it's primarily a gut case

That's pretty much as far as I want to get on this. I don't find him Town enough to want to defend him any harder, and I don't really like being put in that position.

If you want to discuss the fact that people in general don't have much evidence on you either way, we can take it generic.

Again, this was her big opening post, and it's useless masquerading as content.

I do not wish to argue that the post was good. I just tend to consider useless opening posts as null. Frankly I don't like it when people call a spiffy looking replace in post to be 'so town!' either, so maybe this is just a thing between us, but I don't think enough has been seen to call *that post* scummy.

I'm not looking for spiffy here. I'm looking for "in some way useful, even if only vaguely."

I don't think of Titus as a lazy player at all. Me? Definitely. Titus? I've not seen it.

What game(s) are you using for this stance?

Games I watched:
N1408 - reasonably active, reasonably informative
Games I was dead in:
O496 - probably the most active person alive after her replace-in, also did most of the setup spec work
Games I was alive in:
O526 - despite replacing in and being lynched D1, had 100+ posts. Granted that D1 was pretty long, but only 5 people posted more.

and the fact that there is already knowledge of at least 2 Masons' existence.

You might be selling me with this one.
But Nacho wants to debate in walls every time we talk Cephrir, so I may let him field that. I don't think ti will fly far though.[/quote]
That's fine.

I am not the biggest fan that the core of the difference between the two actions is 'I was already scum reading one slot and not so much the other' though. A scum tell should either be an issue or not regardless of past concept of a slot. You can and should assess motive, but prior read shouldn't come into it in my opinion. Scum players don't usually gak up a lot, they gak up a small handful of times a day and you need to spot them at that point.

I disagree that they are comparable actions regardless of my read.
We've had enough days by now that that shouldn't be a problem.

[Gunslinger]

If someone has claimed scum we lynch them.

The point was not to have the watcher tracker out unless they had a guilty. The idea if SSK was the doctor and a watcher/tracker could just tunnel on SSK if he didb't do what he said. Subtle check. There is no intent to delay. However if some can prove how SSK claimed scum, without outinf, I will vote SSK to death.

I can look at the VCs gm. The VC at the time of SSK's claim was SH and Casso at 3 votes, Varsoon at 1. Ligic suggests one of those two would be wagoned.

Nacho, Thor, SH, who fools you as scum? I doubt you both are scum but I would expect scum to go onto the next high town wagon cuz deadline.

Norkalz, who are you? You seem to imply we have played together.

[Titus]

If someone has claimed scum we lynch them.

The point was not to have the watcher tracker out unless they had a guilty. The idea if SSK was the doctor and a watcher/tracker could just tunnel on SSK if he didb't do what he said. Subtle check. There is no intent to delay. However if some can prove how SSK claimed scum, without outinf, I will vote SSK to death.

I can look at the VCs gm. The VC at the time of SSK's claim was SH and Casso at 3 votes, Varsoon at 1. Ligic suggests one of those two would be wagoned.

Nacho, Thor, SH, who fools you as scum? I doubt you both are scum but I would expect scum to go onto the next high town wagon cuz deadline.

Norkalz, who are you? You seem to imply we have played together.

This is me.

[pieguyn]

You're scum until you prove otherwise to me, because I don't see the pieguy that scumhunts and finds scum that I know. SAD's town because i feel his posts are actual intent on finding scum and moving the town to get the best out of their lynches.

if I'm not scumhunting then what the hell have I been doing this whole game? go back and look at D1. you're right in that I haven't been going as hard and fast as before but I tend to slow down a bit in large games (see marketplace). I've been mostly in observe mode the past few days and I'm waiting for another flip to give me a sense of whether my picture of the gamestate is accurate or not. also my reads haven't been changing very much. I've had SAD scum for a while and currently I'm mostly trying to figure out casso/norlkaz.

also I'm having trouble keeping up with all my games recently .-.

where are you currently at with Bert? I know you've been having reservations about him but I don't know exactly what it is you're looking for in town-Bert or what's giving you reservations here. elaborate plz

Why did you use the word IF here?

bc I'm not entirely convinced they indeed have it so I'm making my assumptions clear. it doesn't seem too unlikely daytalk would be different between them and the scumteam (for example in touhou upick scum had daytalk but no one else had it and there was nothing that indicated as such, so I don't see why the reverse couldn't apply)

[pieguyn]

norlkaz = llamarble

[Titus]

GM, I'm not a lazy player regardless of alignment but it does take me awhile to get my feet wet when I don't have a QT that summarizes.

Also, what zMuffin did was a fencesit. He took no strong positions and just said well it could be this and it could be that. That by it's definition is fenceshitty.

N, I'm a strong debater when I'm dealing with facts more than emotion. If something MUST be a particular way, I am damn good. We need to break a setup together at some point but it looks like this one won't be it.

[Sakura Hana]

but it does take me awhile to get my feet wet when

I don't have a QT that summarizes.

Not sure if fake or towntell...

[Titus]

Neither. It says I'm not a scum, mason, neighborizer or anything else that would have a QT to summarize. It wasn't deliberate though. People kept mentioning the fire game and I was scum so I had a basic summary background already. A few basic questions and I was good to go for a 200+ page game. I probably shouldn't have said that because we don't need scum having more information.

[Titus]

I mean even theoretically, it could leave open scum without a strong summary in the QT there. It's just basically I got no summary ATM.

[Titus]

Sakura is pinging scum for me. More of a gut thing. I'm going to crunch the D1 and D2 wagons just by voting pattern (not reason).

[Sakura Hana]

It says

I'm not a scum

, mason, neighborizer or anything else that would have a QT to summarize.

That's exactly why i thought it could be a towntell, since as scum you would have a QT.

[pieguyn]

hey sakura talk to me about Bert