Open 609: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[Luna Fox]

Hello! Reading.

[Luna Fox]

As of Page 4 i have townreads on ika and alch.

[Luna Fox]

111 and 112 didn't like sparrowbird's entrance, it's obvious alpha was trolling as this is an open game, he could be trolling too because based on the suspicion on my predecessor 119 gives me a town lean. Not sure what to think of Vedith's counter in 122.

[Luna Fox]

131 Panther's shoving suspicion onto a perfectly reasonable post made by alch, scumlean. 136 i don't understand, because TTH went and replied anyway and the reply was different from alch's it's not like TTH was hiding behind Alch's reply.
147 gives me the same vibes as 131, mostly because TTH's acusing panther of shoving suspicion onto the "more experienced players" just like newbies do in newbie games, looks like a misrep.

[Luna Fox]

155 Fair assesment by Vedith. Dunno what Firebringer means in 156, is your read entirely meta related and not game related? i find that hard to believe. On the other hand 161 gives me a townlean on FB, i dont think scum would be that willing to bring their meta in the open unless they're perfectly capable of faking it. 166 I disagree with Alch's assesment here, but i still think he's town, i find it weird that panther switches vote right after Alch gives him a townread, but Alch hasn't done anything that i would consider scummy, so it's giving me weird vibes.
Also I'm getting a townlean on TTH mostly from her interactions with Panther.
186 this looks dishonest. Considering the evidence found by TTH in 173 i highly doubt he'd hav a "hard time" adjusting after having already a completed game here?
Flow Alpha leans town.

[Luna Fox]

And now im all caught up

Vote: Panther

[Luna Fox]

Hey Alch I want to engage you in this:

Panther's heavy interrogation of everything is Town.

Why do you think that someone interrogating everything is town?

[Luna Fox]

Because that's a way of trying to understand players, their thought processes, and their motivations. I think he's trying to get a good handle on the game to form his reads. I can't see much scum motivation in the way he went about it, particularly in the aggressiveness of it. Maybe I'm giving too much Towncred to his playstyle, but I don't think scum are going to poke around as hard as he has.

I already said I disagree, both town and scum can interrogate everything, it pretty much depends heavily on the player and their playstyle as each respective alignment, it's easier to paint yourself with actions that look townie, it's harder to hide the motivation behind such actions.
What do you think of my points regarding Panther?

[Luna Fox]

but the only reason I get why you're voting him is the way he pulled his vote away from me. What do you think makes Panther scum?

Not for how he pulled his vote away from you.
But for how he tried to throw suspicion on a perfectly reasonable statement made by you.
And how he misrepped TTH.
And how i think he's being disingenous with his "oh i thought we had 12 hours" post.

[Luna Fox]

Also the townread on TTH isn't because i think Panther is scum, but her interactions with Panther in general regardless of what i actually think of Panther.

[Luna Fox]

@Luna Fox - any take on the reasons people thought your predecessor was scummy? Any of them seem reachy/stretchy? Or do you think they were valid?

None of the reasons looked sketchy to me.
From my PoV he really had a hard time getting into the game, and it was substantiated.
People's scumhunting of the slot looked like genuine concerns since from an outsider's PoV those are easy excuses to make as scum, and the slot had no content, so prodding for content was the correct move.

[Luna Fox]

I have a hard time adjusting to this site after being in 12 hour day phase mode. I almost just said "dead thread, dead villager." Then I looked and realized there are 11+ days left in this phase.

Blah

^
Yes this.
Considering you have a completed newbie game, if you supposedly have a hard time adjusting from the 12 hour day phase, why would you still have this issue?

[Luna Fox]

136 was a null point, is more of "i didnt understand what you were going for there".
About 147:

You're scum reading a set of people with very similar writing/playing styles. I wouldn't go so far as to say we've been "discussion leaders" but the people you named definitely are more... involved? I can't really find the right word right now. :S

I think it's pretty analogous to the role an SE or IC would fill in a newbie game, thus my guess.

I don't understand at all. Why would people who are "involved" with similar "writing/playing styles" remind me of an SE/IC?

You are correlating your play style and involvement with experience? As a general rule?

Look at TTH's post, she says that You're scumreading ppl with very similar writing/playing styles, and goes and labels them as "more involved"
She makes an analogy towards ppl scumreading SEs and ICs in newbie games.
You misrep her with the bolded.

[Luna Fox]

I don't understand how you haven't seen aggression from a townie before.

I have seen townie and scum aggresions.
My issues with you isn't the aggresion however, i've already outlined why i think you're scum in 3 bullet points.

[Luna Fox]

Who is misrepresenting who now?
Admit the error of your way or be prepared for me to death tunnel you.

Point taken i had missed that, I labeled your post as a misrep and probably read TTH's reply and forgot to readjust backwards.
So what about what I said about you shoving suspicion onto Alch?

[Luna Fox]

@luna, I can't say I agree with your assessment on Panther. See alch's point. Panther is interrogating everyone, which probably wouldn't be worth the effort as scum, and could possibly be dangerous for their partners. I can't see many scummy things that panther would do that warrant a vote. Also, this play lines up with my experience of townie Panther. Overall, I don't like your entrance.

I take what people do on the surface with a grain of salt, and look more into what possible motivations their actions might carry behind, see re:his initial scumread on Alch. His play lining up with meta is another matter altogether tho, i didn't read the game that TTH linked (or at least not yet), since i was more focused on getting content in the thread that my predecessor lacked, would you say that if i read this game i'll find a town panther doing the same things he's doing here?

[Luna Fox]

Strange, because I get the impression you're scumreading Panther for surface-level reasons and not actually analyzing him. It looks like you're trying to force the read moreso than it looks like the read comes naturally.

If so then what town motivation could he have had to take a perfectly reasonable post made by you and say that the post was scummy?

[Luna Fox]

The linked game is not a game of mine.

It isn't?
I see your name in the playerlist.

[Luna Fox]

You should have more than just some concern. However, making that statement without any questions or without any follow up, what are you trying to gain?

scum aren't looking to gain anything. just cast shade and suspcion that they hope others latch onto

VOTE: alchemist

Wait what the hell i thought you were quoting alchemist u.u

Apologies

[Luna Fox]

Unvote

[Luna Fox]

This is why im bad at catching up.

[Luna Fox]

I misread that post badly sorry >_<

[Luna Fox]

You should have more than just some concern. However, making that statement without any questions or without any follow up, what are you trying to gain?

scum aren't looking to gain anything. just cast shade and suspcion that they hope others latch onto

VOTE: alchemist

Wait what the hell i thought you were quoting alchemist u.u

Apologies

I was talking about Alchemist?

Holy shit. I'll give you the do-over. Try again.

You were talking about alchemist.
I thought the post quoted was made by alchemist and you were shoving suspicion onto him.
That's probably what caused my confusion
I went to double check coz i didnt see the post i was looking for in your ISO.
Then saw that the problem was that you weren't quoting alchemist.

[Luna Fox]

Either way imma sheep my townreads for now

Vote: Bella

[Luna Fox]

@luna, what were your page 4 reads based off?

ika was gut.
Alch because i liked his posts.

[Luna Fox]

Luna's entrance is interesting, and the aggression from the slot is more alarming because of the slight pressure their slot was under.

Interesting in what way?
Alarming in what way?
Take a stance instead of saying words i can't understand what they stance mean.

[Luna Fox]

@luna, how is that less of a stance than 'gut' and 'I like them'? I'd argue it is substantially more.

My stance on ika and alch was and still is town, reasoning being gut and me liking alch's posts respectively.
Your stance is... interesting/alarming? i dont get what those stances mean.

[Luna Fox]

Btw, do i really give the impression of aggresive person?
I think i rather calm.

[Luna Fox]

You're one to talk:

You should have more than just some concern. However, making that statement without any questions or without any follow up, what are you trying to gain?

scum aren't looking to gain anything. just cast shade and suspcion that they hope others latch onto

VOTE: alchemist

You must pay for voting Alchemist!!!
VOTE: PantherPunt
Take your vote of Alchemist, he is town!

[Luna Fox]

I like your reads based on gut, thats my kind of style

Somehow i feel like some buddying.

What do you like about them?

[Luna Fox]

You guys are cute

[Luna Fox]

@Max: Is your scumread of that guy strong enough to keep your vote on him, despite the fact that he hasn't posted in almost 2 days? I don't see what's so scummy about those 2 posts you mentioned, his ISO is a whole lot of null for me.

[Luna Fox]

Btw what is armchair psychology?

[Luna Fox]

If it's not different from scumhunting why make the diferentiation.
I'm confused.
But he likes me so he can't be evil right?

[Luna Fox]

I'm really having trouble detecting what are jokes from you and what are serious questions. I think you're talkiing about me though, so I'll first ask you to kindly check out them words under my avatar.

Yes i was talking about you
Let's say Half Joke, Half Serious ^_^

[Luna Fox]

I personally don't think Flow sounds like scum. I can see why a townie could think in the way he's thinking, from his PoV he's all this excited about catching scum, then the scum replaces out. When i was initially reading the thread I personally thought my predecessor replaced out because he couldn't handle non-role madness games and would've rather someone else take care of it than bog down the slot, until he mentioned the real life issues.
On top of that there's literally no scum gain from keeping to push the slot for absurds reasons because no one's probably going to listen to them. Overall I don't see much scum gain and his thought process comes from what I think is a townie mind.

Concerning the Bella wagon. Hopefully there will be more focus from the people voting her towards it. It's dropped off the radar a bit but the votes remain. Or are those votes just set?

I Initially voted Bella because my townreads were voting her, now she's not making her stance wrt me clear, which gives her a lot of openness to switch to either side wherever the wind blows so im happy leaving the vote there for now.

[Luna Fox]

And sparrowbird has gone back to scumlean. Doesn't even check the vote count and puts Bella to L-1 without apparently reading anything.

[Luna Fox]

Otherwise, you look

very

scummy if that slot flips town. So, I'll give you another chance to explain your townreads who voted before you on the Bella wagon.

Except you're assuming that I care how I look if Bella flips town, I haven't liked Bella's response, Gut reads is because i have a hard time explaining them, so i call them gut. I don't need a strong reason to townread someone to sheep them, specially with the low info i have on D1, you're assuming too many things, and none of those are scum motivated.
If you had an issue with my vote which had "sheeping townreads" as reason, why dont you have any issue with sparrowbird's vote which never implied any reason at all?

[Luna Fox]

I'm assuming you give a damn about lynching scum. Sheeping weak gut townreads does not sound like you give a damn about lynching scum.

Bella's scum tho, so i don't see how me voting Bella = me not giiving a damn about lynching scum.

I've seen your posts this game and they are wholly underwhelming.

Why is underwhelming scum and not town, why can't it be either, or just town? Do you realize that this is heavily playstyle related right?

You either tried to manufacture a false case on me and packpedalled hard when you realized you picked the wrong townie to do it to. Or you seriously had a bad case of "can't-read-English-itis".

English not my first language, but i try, I literally saw you vote alchemist and thought you had quoted alchemist and were trying to scumpaint him, idk what's so hard to understand there orz

So I'm going to wait to see what Sparrowbird has to say in the thread before full blown scumreading them, if you don't mind?

I don't mind this, I just don't get why you seemed to not care about sparrow's vote at all while painting mine in a bad light, but if this is not the case then my apologies, god forgive me for asking you a question about a cogdis in your thought process.

[Luna Fox]

Confess Bella! Tell us what you know!

what does this mean?

I'm pretty sure it means "Claim"

[Luna Fox]

wut? I thought you were just sheeping gut townreads? why say it so decidedly?

For someone bashing me for my reading comprehension, you sure aren't reading my posts:

I Initially voted Bella because my townreads were voting her, now she's not making her stance wrt me clear, which gives her a lot of openness to switch to either side wherever the wind blows so im happy leaving the vote there for now.

[Luna Fox]

So since she didn't explicitly say she is leaning you town or scum, and because she asked some questions, she is 100% lock scum for you?

I asked her about her stances, she said my stances were gut and liked posts which were worse than her stances, those arent stances, those are the reasons for my stances, she's avoiding declaring a read on my actions and is waiting to see what happens.

[Luna Fox]

Confess Bella! Tell us what you know!

what does this mean?

I'm pretty sure it means "Claim"

I didn't ask you. I asked Vedith. Please don't do that again. I've already expressed that I scumread one person asking a question directed at another person. if you come back with "well you didn't say @Vedith" then I'm voting for you.

Well you didn't say @Vedith... It looked like a general question for everyone.
I don't need to answer btw, it's already answered.

No I agree with him i shouldn't have answered, and it was painfully obvious it was directed at you.
I just throught your post was obvious because 1) You're not voting bella 2) She's at L-1

[Luna Fox]

Bella asked me here where my reads were based off, so i answered:

@luna, what were your page 4 reads based off?

ika was gut.
Alch because i liked his posts.

Then i ask her because she took a pretty much non-commiting stance towards my entrance, so I poke her to take a stance:

Luna's entrance is interesting, and the aggression from the slot is more alarming because of the slight pressure their slot was under.

Interesting in what way?
Alarming in what way?
Take a stance instead of saying words i can't understand what they stance mean.

And this was her reply, which addressed the reason for my reads and calls them "stances" while still not commiting to a stance wrt to my entrance and avoiding the question:

@luna, how is that less of a stance than 'gut' and 'I like them'? I'd argue it is substantially more.

@Panth, agreed. Any more thoughts? Response to Luna's vote?

[Luna Fox]

I love you mod for letting me use my lovely color

[Luna Fox]

Her response is clear to me. "Alarming" is not a word used to describe someone you are townleaning.
I would side with her that "gut" and "I like the posts" is substantially more hollow than her calling you "alarming."

1) No alarming doesn't have any definitive stance, unless you're siding that alarming means scum, and i don't see how it means that, it's an open ended stance.
2) "gut" and "I like the posts" aren't stances, they are reasons for the stances, i don't get why we're even arguing semantics here, whether she thought those were stances or not is irrelevant to the fact that she used that to avoid the actual question i was asking her.

Why do you have a complain about her not elaborating, yet you fail to elaborate on your townreads? After she's asked you and after I've asked you to as well?

She wasn't not only NOT elaborating she wasn't taking a stance, she can easily argue for a read on either direction later on because those stances are noncommital.

[Luna Fox]

The only reason right now that i could see for Bella being town is she being at L-1 from a vote without any reason + lack of a counterwagon.

[Luna Fox]

ika, well i can't explain gut.
Alch sure:

Spoiler: Alchemist

How often do scumclaims come from scum?

Mild Town reads on Alpha and Fire, Alpha for reasons above, Fire for his lighthearted start to the game.

Oh god, it's one of those games already.

VOTE: alch voice of reason

Are you calling me or yourself the voice of reason?

@Bella, it was kinda tryhard for me because I was hoping to get the game out of RVS but only had Townreads. I was hoping to get a conversation started.

Has anyone played with Joraman? This is his second post, and both times he's made a point to say how bad he is and I don't know if this is normal for him or him being apologetic scum.

VOTE: JoramvanVught

Unless I get some concrete proof he makes these kinds of commets as Town, I think this is the most likely to turn up scum atm.

Fire, what makes Ika Town in your opinion?

Have you ever played a game with ika before?

A few. He was Gif's Tohou 2 game iirc, but that was so long ago I don't remember much. He was in a Matrix-14 game with me and he was SK. There was also HU2 where he hydra'd with Mollie.

I just checked them all for myself. Newbie is still a completed game as Town, but no matter how you slice it the fact is he never did that as either alignment. He did bring up being in only his second game as a defense in one of the marathons, but didn't call himself bad. I'm not really sure what to think of the slot at the moment.

I want to see Jormvan's own response to all this.

P-edit: TTH is pointing out valid reasons on Bella, but they're not the same as the reasons others pointed out earlier, which indicates to me that he's actually scumhunting and not just jumping on the Bella bandwagon. Varian saw the same thing I had noticed in Bella's vote on me, and his post 53 looked pro-Town in my opinion.

[Luna Fox]

Do you have independent scumreads on all 3?
Because if not I ask you where will you go when I flip town (in case you lynch me first).

[Luna Fox]

Why did you like this post, in particular. Seems rather null to me.

Oh, i thought 76 was he explaining a town meta read on ika.
Yay me failing at reading again.
Yeah ignore that post.

[Luna Fox]

ftr, i now have a townlean on panther, he seems like he's trying to figure out my mindset, guess it is better to form reads with real time interaction than just reading posts from a bird's eye view on a catchup.

[Luna Fox]

Well, why would you assume you're being lynched? You don't have any votes atm, do you?

I do.
I'm just asking you a question because it seemed like your whole scumteam was based off pre-flip associatives based entirely on your own assumptions without taking into consideration the possibility of either flipping town, or in this case, someone i know will flip town (me)

[Luna Fox]

@Bella: I see you talking in site chat, I hope you are reading the thread.

[Luna Fox]

You only have 1 vote. It's weird to start talking about how you'll flip town........

What's weird about it?
You're assuming a whole scumteam already.
Ironically all your scumreads were voting bella at some point (one of them unvoted now).
1) Do you literally think the whole scumteam is pushing Bella?
2) I know one of your scumreads is town (me), I'm asking you a question of where will you go after i flip town, it's not an illogical case.

[Luna Fox]

I actually hope she's reading the thread of the other game I'm in with her.

Don't talk about ongoing games btw.

[Luna Fox]

his is bad. Looks like role-fishing too.

How does that even remotely look any close to role fishing?

[Luna Fox]

Inb4 I'm voting scum and i become the counterwagon to a scum wagon.

[Luna Fox]

Why so worried about a wagon on you?

I'm not exactly worried, as much as paranoid.
Becuase i'm doing my best to scumhunt, then if ppl somehow buy what the scum is saying I may get mislynched, flip town, and then ppl will never go back and look at my reads or statements and blame it on me being "scummy".
Happens every time. And I'm just wondering if I should really waste my time or not.

[Luna Fox]

you're referring to? Just Bella?

Yes

[Luna Fox]

I think it's obvious by 379 that i got a hard scumread on Bella because she's accusing me of something im not doing which i referenced on 378.

[Luna Fox]

378 is valid. Asking for a claim without intent to hammer looks like role fishing. You didn't have to jump in and answer my question to vedith but you did. That's on you.

That's the reason for your full blown scumread? 378?

Yes, i was going to unvote and move on to my lesser reads after she finally took a stance on me until i read that.

[Luna Fox]

Ftr my current reads look like this

Town

ika
Alchemist
Panther
TTH
Alpha

Nullish Town

Fire

Not Townreading

Varian-
Maxwell
Lizard
Vedith

Nullish Scum

Sparrow

Scum

Bella

[Luna Fox]

378 is valid. Asking for a claim without intent to hammer looks like role fishing.

Also yes, this is true but:
1) I didn't know Vedith didnt have an intent to hammer, his post looked like that to me, and that's how I interpreted it.
2) I'm not even the one declaring the inteint or asking Bella to claim, I was just interpreting Vedith's post.

[Luna Fox]

I assume Bella meant the role fishing comment at me, if she didn't then yeah that would be odd.
For the record I wasn't role fishing. I stated that my opinion on voting her would be from her response.

If she did, why quote me instead of you?

[Luna Fox]

I can't answer that sadly. But I'm sure Bella can confirm if my assumption is correct or not.

Inb4 now that you say this, she goes and say she was talking about you, which will make my scumread on her awkward.

[Luna Fox]

I'm tired of pursuing this line of questioning, you may be right, you may be wrong, but even if you are wrong and i'm right, you've just now given her a excuse to just come here and say she was talking about you, so regardless of what her initial intent was we will never know so this will in fact nullify the scumread i had there since she can just lie about it now and i'm just gonna move onto the other people in my reads list.

Unvote
Vote: Sparrow

[Luna Fox]

But you was voting her before she said that comment.
This was your only reason?!

I was voting her initially for sheeping my townreads, then because she was making uncommital statements regarding my entrance.

[Luna Fox]

Is my english really that bad, or are ppl just not reading my posts

[Luna Fox]

And what changed?
The fact she could have meant I was fishing for roles with my comment rather than you?

The fact she was accusing me of something i wasn't doing, this was on the same post she finally took a stance wrt me, so my previous reason for scumreading her was gone, but a new one arised.

[Luna Fox]

1) I initially vote her to sheep my townreads.
2) She takes an uncommital stance towards me
3) I poke her about that uncommital stance
4) She avoids the question while saying that my stances are worse.
5) I scumread her because of the above, so I keep my vote there.
6) She comes back and states a stance on me, then accuses me of something im not doing.
7) I no longer scumread her for the lack of a stance, but now i scumread her for accusing me of doing something im not doing.
8) You say that she may have intended that comment towards you.
9) So then I no longer scumread her for accusing me of doing something im not doing.
10) I move my vote somewhere else.

What is your issue with this process.

[Luna Fox]

I even numbered them so you can just say "Oh there's a gap in logic between X and Y because reasons"

[Luna Fox]

The issue is you lost a reason to vote her, you made one up and when I find a loop hole (fair to say) you suddenly decide that you have no scum read on her.

So i shouldn't have scumread her for accusing me of something im not doing in your opinion?

So where would she now go on your list? Null?

Pretty much (She still hasn't done anything townie enough to be townread imo so i move to my next scumread.)

[Luna Fox]

Can you remind me the scum read on Sparrow? I'm too lazy to look back.

Puts a vote on bella at L-1 without reading the thread (seemingly), In addition to the fact that there was no counterwagon to Bella (at the time), gave me lots of bad feelings.

[Luna Fox]

I see it as a weak reason to put someone as scum (Keep in mind, I think she hasn't come across very towny at all).

It's not weak to me!
Someone's lying about my intentions, im not going to just take it and stay quiet about it.

[Luna Fox]

Did you read Sparrow as hammering? I did at first as his L1 comment was before the vote.
Lying and being mistaken are 2 different things though (could easily be either).

Not that vote, the one where he initially put Bella at L-1 (Before TTH unvoted)

[Luna Fox]

Post 306 Look above this one.

[Luna Fox]

Luna, how will you feel about Sparrow if Bella flips scum?

Probably townier than before.
Normally i'd say a Bus vote, but considering there's ppl throwing suspicion onto me, a scum sparrow could have jumped on me to save a teammate. So if Bella flips scum, i'd feel better about Sparrow, but i currently feel Sparrow has better chances of flipping scum than Bella, for the reasons i pointed before.

[Luna Fox]

Cool to know why you're scumreading me, but at least i'd like to know why.

[Luna Fox]

Cool to know

why

that you're scumreading me, but at least i'd like to know why.

EBWODP

[Luna Fox]

I see. I think the opposite. If Bella flips scum with no counterwagon, I think it means there's a strong chance bussing occured, or at least scum didn't care to defend her. With sparrow blindly voting her, then doing it again during a readthrough looks to me like an attempt to derpclear himself with the hope that if Bella flips scum people will give him Towncred for it.

The more I think about it the more I think there was scum on Bella's wagon regardless of Bella's alignment, but at the same time I feel the most confident in my scumread on Bella, so my vote's staying there.

Busing is overrated, People will always assume bus more likely than not.

[Luna Fox]

It's easy for scum to townread town.
It's hard for scum to scumread town.

Remember that.

[Luna Fox]

It's due to way you pushed Panther earlier was based on multiple unfounded reasons, and I felt you were just trying to force a scumread on him rather than coming to that conclusion naturally.

Ok, so question, why is it more likely to be me making stuff up, than me genuinely thinking i had found something and then noticing i misread something?

Since then you've made other points that don't make sense (ie, arugment about Bella's stance towards you), and I don't think it's a result of English being your second language.

I'm not using language barrier as an excuse, but ppl keep misinterpreting my posts and motive so I was wondering if it's because ppl aren't reading them or because im failing at english, which is why i made that comment before.
I also don't see why town would avoid making a stance on me while simultanously attacking me. If you think Bella's not commiting to a stance was town motivated and i was wrong to push that, then i'd like to know why.

[Luna Fox]

It's easy for scum to townread town.
It's hard for scum to scumread town.

Remember that.

What point are you trying to make here?

Was a reply towards panther asking for ppl to state why they townread me.

[Luna Fox]

Ah, I thought it was related to your earlier post about bussing, though I'm curious as to why you think bussing is expected too often. If you believe the above to be true, you should also believe scum have an easier time scumreading their partners (which is generally true), and it would be natural to expect bussing can occur at any point during the game.

Yes, it is possible, I WILL expect busing to happen, i just don't expect it to happen in the way Sparrow voted, I already explained why.
It is indeed easy to scumread your scum partners, way easier than it is for town, which is why it's also easy to avoid putting more suspicion on them.

[Luna Fox]

^
Town posting.
Cool i'll probably have a decent PoE soon at this rate.
Also:

Continues to defend sparrow. Why?

This is a fair question, i don't know how i missed something like that.

[Luna Fox]

Anyone in Not Townreading or lower for me. Adjusted with latest exchanges in mind.

Town

ika
Alchemist
Panther
TTH
Alpha
Maxwell

Nullish Town

Fire

Not Townreading

Varian-

Maxwell

Lizard
Vedith
Bella

Nullish Scum

Sparrow

Scum

Bella

[Luna Fox]

It might just be that her posts are going so fast

I could try and slow down if it helps you read me, thing is my playstyle's centered around real time interaction mostly, so i have an easier time forming reads that way.

[Luna Fox]

Now that you brought it up, i decided to put both of them in isolation, the back and forth between them does indeed seem weird, but i still have trouble thinking that a wagon like this if it's hitting scum has caused no reaction from her scumpartners to come in and create a wagon elsewhere.

[Luna Fox]

At the bottom there's a button to select an user to ISO, use the + button to add another user

[Luna Fox]

Also i think you can do that with up to 3 users.

[Luna Fox]

I'm reading 448 as annoyed town btw.

[Luna Fox]

Hello Shiro, Welcome to the game ^_^

[Luna Fox]

Aaaaand I am done

Won't feel horrible about bella dying, would prefer sparow or lizard though because they need to start playing more

also I kind of not trust Vedith but no particualry reason though his post about lizard was kinda bleh . Like post structure make you think someone is town how?

There rest is a bunch of nulls with townreads on Luna,ika,alche,fire and Panther

The whole Luna Vs Panther looked really town v town to me

Alche posts have a good feel , fire and ika are gut and general feel


BTW totally using the pink colour since it is encouraged

That's hard to read on maf silver

[Luna Fox]

Yes that's better ^_^

[Luna Fox]

Flow's a hydra?

[Luna Fox]

It's just us saying we're a 4-headed hydra, with personality added.

Wow i missed it back during my read through.

[Luna Fox]

Also I agree with Panther about Lizard parroting.

[Luna Fox]

I'll sheep that

Unvote
Vote: Lizard

[Luna Fox]

I think mine's the 4th vote btw.

[Luna Fox]

I would like more people to engage me, but this game is now moving slow and there's nothing to engage me about.
Where are the others?
Sparrow dissapeared, Bella has been gone too.

[Luna Fox]

Sparrowbird
ika
Firebringer
Vedith

PantherPunt
Luna Fox
Flow Alpha
TellTaleHeart

Alchemist21
MaxwellPuckett

Lizard_Buttock
Shiro

Bellaphant

I would like explanations on those reads.

[Luna Fox]

So, how is everyones day?

Very hot in here.

@Silverjaws: You're currently at L-1, So it's better that you can read and get your thoughts out first and foremost.

My issue with Sparrow's reads is not only the lack of explanations, but i don't see how sparrow has a scumread on Shiro and a Null read on Max/Alch (Im hoping those golden/yellow reads are null), when im having the opposite reads on those.

[Luna Fox]

Unvote

I want to give you a chance to get more thoughts out.
I do want to know what you think of the other players, or at least the most active posters.

[Luna Fox]

I want to say again, you made no claim and you were at L-1.
Highly suspicious no matter how good your re-entrance and catch up is.

^
This destroys my townread on Fire.
Seems like you're more interested in the claim, than in the slot's reads and thoughts.

[Luna Fox]

Also if I remember right you had me at Null or something. When did it switch to town?

I had you as nullish town:

Anyone in Not Townreading or lower for me. Adjusted with latest exchanges in mind.

Town

ika
Alchemist
Panther
TTH
Alpha
Maxwell

Nullish Town

Fire

Not Townreading

Varian-

Maxwell

Lizard
Vedith
Bella

Nullish Scum

Sparrow

Scum

Bella

[Luna Fox]

I can't be interested in both?

Scum's more interesting in getting to know a player's role, because they are interested in shooting PR.
Town's interested in reads and content so that they get closer to who the scum is.
You're dismissing his entrance because... he didnt claim?
That means you're only interested in the claim over their reads.

[Luna Fox]

I'm disappointed the Bella wagon has vanished, and frankly surprised

so many people

left the Sparrow wagon so quickly given how many people are willing to lynch them.

I think Bella's misunderstood town as of 448.
Also i thought i was the only one voting sparrow? i don't see how that makes it a wagon nor where "so many ppl" comes from.

Do you really still scumread Bella, did you check her latest couple posts?

[Luna Fox]

Btw i was, and still am up for a sparrow wagon. I think Jaws only mentioned 3 scumreads, the others were mostly undecided ppl, but i could have misunderstood, which ones are, in your opinion, throwing dirt.

What do you think about Fire saying that Jaws should have claimed instead of putting their thoughts and reads just because they were at L-1 and not doing so makes them not care about their thoughts?

[Luna Fox]

Well Probably because i usually tend to pick up on stuff that pings me town more often than stuff that pings me scum i have an easier time townreading her.

Lizard_Buttock - 5 - Firebringer, Shiro, ika, Vedith, Luna Fox

This was the Lizard wagon before TTH jumped in.
From here Fire was voting Lizard for a while (hence my confusion from before).
Shiro jumped onto Lizard due to the replacement thing.
ika was following Fire.
Not exactly sure what Vedith's reasons were.
And i didnt like the parroting which made me vote.

From those, Shiro and ika werent voting anywhere that i remember?, Vedith had just unvoted me before, and i had unvoted Bella in favor of Sparrow.
TTH had also unvoted Bella.
And ika jumped from Bella to Lizard.
Which leaves pretty much the Bella wagon as you see it.

From where i see it, the Bella wagon had already crumbled before the Lizard wagon picked up steam.

[Luna Fox]

From those, Shiro and ika werent voting anywhere that i remember?

Strike ika from here, i remembered wrong and corrected in afterwards

[Luna Fox]

Well 521 Is all about TTH, so that one's obvious.
523 is mostly about Vedith, then we have:

This is a wishy-washy read that doesn't say anything. "Interesting?" That's a word scum love using as filler.

When talking about (Bellaphant)

Undecided on Flow Alpha. I wouldn't rule out TTH bussing Bellaphant.

Here he leaves Flow as null, and reinforces possible scumread on Bellaphant and his TTH scumread.
Actually looking back at it i realized i read the next quote:

I see this post as stymieing the progress of the game. "Townblocs" are how Firebringer and Ika are expressing their reads so they can focus on a narrower playerpool. Reads change like all others. So, when is it a good time to start reading people?

As Vedith, since most of his quotes were about Vedith. But it was actually Verian.

So in the end suspicion's onto Sparrow, Vedith, Shiro, TTH, Bellaphant.

So yeah you're right, i missed a few things in his post.

[Luna Fox]

Oh right, I forgot Shiro's predecessor was voting there... hmm...

[Luna Fox]

Votecount 1.08

Bellaphant - 4 -

Shiro

,

ika

, Alchemist21, Sparrowbird
Luna Fox- 2 - Flow Alpha, Bellaphant
Lizard_Buttock - 1 - Firebringer
Sparrowbird - 1 -

Luna Fox

TellTaleHeart - 1 - PantherPunt
Shiro - 1 - MaxwellPuckett
Vedith - 1 - Lizard_Buttock

Not Voting:

TellTaleHeart

,

Vedith

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-19 23:45:33)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

I'm striking the posts that went towards the Lizard wagon as of that VC, also from all those.
Shiro, ika, me and TTH are common between both when the Bella wagon was the largest.
Shiro's a replacement, so her movement could just be different reads, but she said she wouldn't mind if Bella died on her first content post.
.
.
.
I'm still coming up with a blank on whether this means anything im just gathering data and idk what to do with it, because idk how to analyze wagon movement.

[Luna Fox]

Before i continue confusing myself im just gonna continue with what i was doing.

[Luna Fox]

Re: Bella.
The tonality in her latest posts seems like she's just being misunderstood, notice how she keeps mentioning she's not reading the thread correctly, for example when it came up about the thing where she thought i was role fishing and after this came up then she corrected herself, in addition she decided to re-read me, i think scum would've continued pushing... maybe.

[Luna Fox]

1) There's a risk Lizard/Silver are a counterwagon to Bella and 2) the Lizard wagon's composition may not be as good as I originally thought.

1) This is true if Bella's scum instead of Lizard/Silver, but i don't think it's worth pursuing without actual flips.
2) So which votes on the Lizard wagon bother you? Or at least which ones dont?

[Luna Fox]

What do you mean by passively stating a question?

[Luna Fox]

I took this post as passivly asking me about the vote change. Instead of directly asking me about it. Eh I could be wrong though and misinterpretated you

I wasn't asking you, I was interpreting your posts about the change since Alch was worried about the wagon momentum shift.

[Luna Fox]

thoughts on Sparrow?

Still nullish scum.

[Luna Fox]

So where did the rest of the people go?

[Luna Fox]

but strongly prefer a Bella or Sparrow lynch.

What do you think of Bella's question then, since you're scumreading both? here:

@Luna, Panth, Ika - thoughts on Sparrow?

[Luna Fox]

It's a simple question that's simply null.

Yeah, but since you're scumreading both, do you think she's trying to drive a compromise lynch on her buddy?

[Luna Fox]

Also don't forget about sparrow randomly putting Bella at L-1, with no signs of a counterwagon.

[Luna Fox]

Normally when a wagon builds and there's no counter wagon is a good indication that the target is town.
Scum usually try to derail lynches from scumbuddies onto other townies.
Busing is overrated.
Either way if you ask me, of the 3 possible lynch candidates thus offered: Bella, Sparrow and Silver. Bella's a townread, Silver's a null read, Sparrow's a scumread. So I rather lynch Sparrow.

Vote: Sparrow

[Luna Fox]

P-edit: That could easily be bussing. If a partner looks like they're going down they could have just voted there to look better. It could have also been a tactic to try and scare people away from the wagon (and in fact some people did leave the wagon after the vote). I've tried a similar tactic as scum before, but failed at it.

ftr, this kind of posting makes me think you're looking at Bella with confirmation bias.

[Luna Fox]

Unlike Silver, Sparrow has not presented any explanations for their reads, so no, it's not the same ammount of information.

[Luna Fox]

Well if you think Silvers flip would give us more info then why are you voting Sparrow ? Also what more would you get from jaws explanation ?

Because I think Sparrow is scum, while i have a null read on Silver. I already said this.
Not sure what "more info" we would get, but i'd think reads with explanation contain more info than reads without explanation, no?

[Luna Fox]

OOC:Luna Why you stop colour D:

What you mean?

[Luna Fox]

Although now that I think about it jaws didn't even give reads for everyone though lizard did give some very early reads.

He seemed to have posted suspicion on 5 ppl and a few townreads, i didn't check whether it was reads on everyone or not.
Overall the only issue i had with Lizard was the parroting, Silver's explanations seem town oriented, but i agree that casting suspicion on 5 ppl is worrying, which is why he's null for now.

[Luna Fox]

Replace outs are null imo. I'm not sure how you can even read that as anything if the player who replaced out is not even in the game anymore, so they cant win or lose?

[Luna Fox]

While it is hypocritical, hypocrisy isn't a scumtell.
If she's lying about losing motivation, then that's just poor sportmanship, and if the slot is scum, then we'll find out by the replacements play and the predecessor's play, not because of the replace out itself.
She could also be saying the truth about losing motivation, in which case the slot could still go either way.

Which of the cases is true we wont know, and looking into it, it doesn't help us figure out the slot's alignment, so this is a dead end.

[Luna Fox]

Panther's actually making me rethink my TTH read.

[Luna Fox]

If you're town, i don't understand why lynching you would bring us to victory.
Lynching town isn't part of our win con.
If you're town getting lynched it's in your best interest to let us know your thoughts, because after a town flip then we will know that those thoughts came from a town mindset, not just throw AtE and a self-vote.
If you're scum, then the self-vote could be an AtE attempt at derailing the lynch, in addition to providing less info on the wagon.

Say, why you think, if you're town, that it's better to lynch you D1, instead of lynching actual scum while you can maybe contribute better thoughts and analysis in future days. It seems like a waste and is one of the reasons i now am less convinced of you being town.

[Luna Fox]

Interesting to note, Sparrow/Mario keep avoiding mentioning anything related to why they wouldn't prefer to lynch TTH over Silver, despite being asked multiple times by panther.

[Luna Fox]

Important question: Anyone here played with Mario before?

[Luna Fox]

Mostly because i could see it go 2 ways, but i need to know that to be certain.

[Luna Fox]

Actually thinking it over scratch that question (tho still feel free to answer if you want).
I could think that if Mario's scum faking his town meta, the switch could've been so ppl who played with him before would meta read him as town.
The other reason is what he literally stated being true, as in, being more motivated to contribute if he's on his main.

Thinking about it the 2nd part would be possible regardless of whether ppl here have meta with him or not, so i decided to scratch that question since i realized i wouldn't get any good info out of it.

[Luna Fox]

Mario's town btw. If it was a different alt I would have though scum, but I don't at all here.

Walk me through how this makes sense.
Mario has specifically said that he's playing nothing at all like his main.
So how does this read tie into Mario = Town?

[Luna Fox]

Panther's 640 took out the words from my mouth, i have a way stronger townread on him now.

[Luna Fox]

Unvote
Vote: TTH

I feel like a lot of variables hinge here, TTH has been fading out of existance and it's true that most of her posts are reactionary towards Panther.
There's also Silver's scumread on TTH at entrance and Mario's avoidance of mentioning anything TTH related (well reads overall, but it's obvious that TTH has been asked about over and over).
Panther's super town regardless.

[Luna Fox]

A player already voting has no right to demand for a claim.
Only a player that has an intent to hammer can.

[Luna Fox]

What kind of logic is this?

The logic that if out of the people not voting the player they have no intention of doing so, then there's no danger for the player.

[Luna Fox]

So, someone want to post intent to hammer and request a claim pls?

Kind of getting annoyed with Silver right now.

Why?

[Luna Fox]

You're right this is stalling, Silver flipping scum would also hint towards a TTH town, since she's his main scumread, i just dont think we'd get much info if he flips town and im not very sure he'll flip scum.

[Luna Fox]

Alchemist, please look at TTH ISO, tell me what stances she's taking and why, tell me what posts are proactive aside from those related to Bella, and show me what posts arent reactive towards Panther, and then in the end tell me why that is so town, that it mirrors your judgement.

[Luna Fox]

Shiro forgot her color

[Luna Fox]

Seems like we're doing nothing anyway.

Unvote
Intent to hammer silver

Please reply to alchemist's question and claim and give reads and stuff.

[Luna Fox]

Fire, ask me if I like scum or town better.

Do you like sushi or riceballs better.

[Luna Fox]

Hi Performer, welcome to the game ^_^

[Luna Fox]

Btw, im not hammering before the replacement catches up and stuff.
I'm also not hammering if i like Silver's reply

[Luna Fox]

Now, even I am scared

[Luna Fox]

Cute

[Luna Fox]

I think we need to work on your definition of cute

[Luna Fox]

I did townread flow.
Mostly coz i felt his push on my predecessor was genuine, i.e. not scum motivated.
I didn't like that he didnt want to re-assess after I replaced in, but it's more of a stubborn town feel.

[Luna Fox]

Luna Fox/JoramvanVugt

– reads list at 389

There was an update to my reads list on 440
Also I've always mentioned any change in reads.

[Luna Fox]

Its likely one of these wagons is scum, if not both.
We should lynch the other if one flips town.

Vote: Firebringer

[Luna Fox]

oi Luna. What gives ? I mean I have something in mind but what gives?

He's lining up lynches.

[Luna Fox]

Since Silver is back to L-1 my intent still stands.
Idk what is going on through fire's head, but probably won't get any mommentum there today anyway.

[Luna Fox]

a strong Town player.

This is the first post of TTH constant prod dodge/being busy/sheeping, at that point she had already stopped being a leader/strong town player if what you say about her was true:

X|

I meant to get to this yesterday but I didn't and I'm

still

not all here.
Scattered things: I'm townreading both the replace-ins (Luna and Shiro). Quick evaluation of the Lizard wagon: I like the composition of the wagon. Lizard herself has mostly escaped my notice and I'm not town reading anything of hers so I'll vote the wagon and move things along.

VOTE: Lizard

That said, I understand the hesitance to lynch someone you townread, i just still don't see any reason for that townread to be that strong.

[Luna Fox]

I really can't bring myself to lynch TTH ever after a defense like that.
It touches my heart.

[Luna Fox]

@all: what was the original reason for the wagon?

Lizard was parroting Panther and I agreed.

[Luna Fox]

at least that was my reason.

[Luna Fox]

Silverjaws Sep 12, 04:41pm Sep 14, 04:44pm 2 days 6 hours

Ugh im getting tempted to just hammer >_<

[Luna Fox]

I'm seriously wondering if he's just stalling after the intent was raised.

[Luna Fox]

I haven't hammered yet because he still haven't replied to the things i asked with my intent.

[Luna Fox]

Not really, hence my 835 and the subsequent post.

[Luna Fox]

I want to know who else is fine with me hammering without a claim, i don't have a problem doing it atm, but i don't want to deprive you guys of possible info just because i took over my own instincts.

[Luna Fox]

UNVOTE:

trolllolololol

i want hammer luna vote

This means that me voting would just mean you'll hammer so is the same in the end.
I'll still wait for ppl to comment, as you can see already Performer is not ok with a hammer yet.

[Luna Fox]

Now im hoping that the stuff about ika's hammer is false.

[Luna Fox]

Oh wow prod reply timer is 48 hours, why did i think it was 24...

[Luna Fox]

I guess... i wanted more ppl to talk before hammering but i dont think we're going anywhere

Unvote
Vote: silver

[Luna Fox]

I can't tell which one of those is supposed to be the vig shot... both look bad...

[Luna Fox]

Either way, silver flipping scum, increases the chances of diego to be town by a lot, Vedith too but not by as much. I'm not particularly interested in pursuing either of those 2 today.

[Luna Fox]

Do you realize this is an open game?

[Luna Fox]

there's only 1 scum kill, the other is a vig (if existant, but as evidenced by 2 deaths it exists)

[Luna Fox]

Dunno what to think of that post tho, because mafia's supposed to know the setup.

[Luna Fox]

Posting this for future reference, might do a full one later:

Silverjaws

- 7 - Shiro, Alchemist21, Vedith, MarioManiac4,

Firebringer

, Diego1487, Luna Fox
MarioManiac4 - 3 -

Bellaphant

, Performer, MaxwellPuckett

[Luna Fox]

im pretty sure there's 1 scum at least amongst: Shiro, Alch, Vedith, Mario, Diego.

Diego's pretty much super town after Silver pushed his predecessor, so probably not Diego.
Vedith was also a push from Silver, so probably not Vedith either.

That leaves Shiro, Alch and Mario.
But if it's Mario then the other wagon makes no sense imo.

[Luna Fox]

Luna, silver pushed a few people, right? I'm not sure discounting them as mafia on that alone would work, since it was a pretty large group that he picked from.

I know, but his strongest pushes were on those 2.

[Luna Fox]

Mafia killed fire cause he was globally townread

Hmm... guess i was the only one not townreading fire?

[Luna Fox]

Also im happy that i called it:

I'm seriously wondering if he's just stalling after the intent was raised.

[Luna Fox]

Scum
Alch
Performer

this is where im leaning too right now.

[Luna Fox]

Null
Panther
Diego

How do you have a null on Diego after silver's flip?

[Luna Fox]

Am I the only one that thinks that 521 doesn't look like a bus?

[Luna Fox]

Luna, what's your opinion on Panther? Do you understand why he left his vote on Alch when he wouldn't be bussed?
Could be a distraction vote for late game?

While Silver overexpanded on his reasoning for suspecting TTH, Panther seemed to have legit concerns across all of Day 1, if you think both Panther and Silver are in a team, you think Silver would be so obvious as to follow panther onto TTH instead of picking on other players? Unless you're suspecting that the scumteam specifically targeted TTH for a Day 1 mislynch in their Scum QT, this doesn't make any sense, from my PoV Silver saw that Panther was pushing TTH and decided to reinforce it to try and get that mislynch through.

Another thing bothering me is how easily Alchemist thought that silver was an alt.

[Luna Fox]

My opinion on Alch is that he seemed way too certain TTH was town, Panther's suspicion of Alch was well founded.
For today i want to lynch either Permormer or Alch, preferably Alch.

[Luna Fox]

Oh, and Luna, this setup doesn't give scum daychat. The only way scum could have conspired against TTH was in the pre-game, and there's absolutely no way I could have known Silver was an alt just by being scumbuddies with him if I were scum.

Oh... i guess.
I didn't realize about the day chat thing.

[Luna Fox]

Let's see im going to vote performer instead of alch and see how things roll.

Vote: Performer

[Luna Fox]

Towny:

PantherPunt (Play)
Diego1487 (Counterwagon to scum)
Vedith (Play + Scum making a case on them)
ika (Gut)
MarioManiac4 (Because counterwagon to scum)

Nullish Town:

Shiro (If Alchemist is scum, Shiro's town as i doubt 2 scum bus'd Silver)
MaxwellPuckett (Play was ok, but wagon position at the end isn't good)

Scum is in, and if not lynch ^:

Alchemist21 (Possible bus on Silver + Way too sure of TTH town)
Performer (Play)

Is amazing how PoE works it's magic, don't you think?

[Luna Fox]

Lizard_Buttock

- 5 -

Firebringer

, Shiro, ika, Vedith, Luna Fox

+TTH

Was the Lizard wagon after the parroting, Alchemist was off the wagon at this point in time.
Not sure what this means for anything yet tho. Interesting to note is that Shiro was the first one to vote there for those reactions as Fire was already voting there for a while, so if busing happened i think the Alchemist vote later down the road is more likely to be it.

[Luna Fox]

I get the feeling that Performer is being scum-read because he's not playing well, not because he's scummy.

PoE actually.

[Luna Fox]

Now that i think about it, since we have vig, it should be easy to help purge the PoE, since they still should have another shot.

[Luna Fox]

I get the feeling that Performer is being scum-read because he's not playing well, not because he's scummy.

PoE actually.

You put him in scum pile based on play. I'm just not seeing it. Bad play, yes. Scummy, no.

Well obviously.,
Point is i dont see anything townie in his play, at least compared to everyone else and that's why he's low.

[Luna Fox]

You admit that maxwell's position on the counter wagon is scummy yet he's null. They seem to be flip flopped yes?!

I said Max's play was ok, which is why he's on the nullish town category.

[Luna Fox]

Yeah. I agree.

[Luna Fox]

@Luna, assume I'm Town for a bit. Is there anyone currently on the wagon you think looks bad in that scenario?

Personally I don't think any of the votes look that scummy, and I'm thinking scum are likely off the 2 wagons.

I'll get back to you on that later, there's a reason i voted performer instead of you, Shiro has probably already noticed why.

[Luna Fox]

Votecount 2.01

Alchemist21 - 3 - PantherPunt, Vedith, Shiro
Performer - 3 - MarioManiac4, Alchemist21, Luna Fox
MarioManiac4 - 1 - Performer

Not Voting: ika, MaxwellPuckett, Diego1487

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2015-10-04 01:13:00)

Based on this VC, Diego has moved towards your wagon.
If you say that scum is likely off both wagons means you think there's 2 scum amongst Performer, ika and Max.

[Luna Fox]

You're voting performer so it's pointless to ask you there.
So you think there's scum between ika and Max?
Which one?

[Luna Fox]

Ok, i think Alch is town.

[Luna Fox]

By saying that Max is scum he's reinforcing my PoE pool, if he was scum i'd think he'd be taking a stab at ika which is my stronger townread, because taking a stab at Max doesn't remove Alch's death.
Meanwhile Max:

Luna, silver pushed a few people, right? I'm not sure discounting them as mafia on that alone would work, since it was a pretty large group that he picked from.

Is trying to eliminate ppl from the townbloc.