Mini 2308 | Blood over Utopia | Utopia fell.

[Merlyn]

VOTE: penguin power this is a utopia, penguins have exactly the right amount of power[/vote]

HURT: neighborhood watch to not have day talk early on could be more damaging then later when there a groove.

I also support printing press, it's pretty clear later stuff is gonna cost more than the current budget and if we don't keep up increasing it it may be days before we can pick something really good.

[Merlyn]

Jury is a good one too. But sacrifice is beneficial to town and we use it in place of the execution vote is all I’m saying.

Yeah except execution is a third thing we can do.

[Merlyn]

I'm concerned by the yellow warning for wind in the late evening.

I saw that too, the weather is gonna be relevant. I think clouding and rainfall apply to scum activities that are not active for the first two days.

[Merlyn]

But we can't bank money. So it's another 60k tomorrow. I think that fact that printing press is an option implies that in future days there will be assignments that cost more than 60k.

If on, say, day 3, an amazing assignment is available for 80k we will have to vote in printing press more than once and we won't be able to get amazing assignment till day 6 at the earliest. unless we keep up with printing press from the start we're really choosing to put any future high priced assignments out of our reach

[Merlyn]

I agree, it seems to only delay getting access to better actions by a day

Let’s just gamble lol

You're assuming that all better assignments cost 70k. I bet they cost more than that

[Merlyn]

But we can't bank money. So it's another 60k tomorrow. I think that fact that printing press is an option implies that in future days there will be assignments that cost more than 60k.

If on, say, day 3, an amazing assignment is available for 80k we will have to vote in printing press more than once and we won't be able to get amazing assignment till day 6 at the earliest. unless we keep up with printing press from the start we're really choosing to put any future high priced assignments out of our reach

I think you mean trading post.

We can’t bank but we can get up to 90k with trading post and a sacrifice.

yeah my bad, I was mixing the two up

[Merlyn]

So to be clear, the reason to get printing press, is we can actually determine what to do in a long term way via this, yes we lose 10k tomorrow, i think that is worth it overall.

Thing is we don't know the costs of later items, we don't know the cost of trading outpost 2.0, so investing in these might be a bust, and actually just assist Scum, as i think a few rules haven't really been noted by a few people.

If no project is being undertaken at Night, the Insurgence is free to do its biddings and gain $60,000. If only one project is being undertaken, there will still be little enough traffic that the Insurgence can manage to gain $20,000.
Whatch out, money you spend may end up financing Them.

These 2 rules actually give us a lot of information on what the Insurgents can likely do.

First note, Insurgence gaining money is a key thing to note, odds are they get a %age of everything we spend, spending more might not be worth funding them, but also there is a risk of unspent money being just as bad.
Second note, the fact they can bid at night is interesting, as this is clearly giving them enough for an assassination, therefore they might not have a standard kill, given they have the ability to fund their own.

So the reason to get Printing press follows on that we want to know if there is anything worth potentially giving the scum more money and kills for, rather then to just potentially spend recklessly, because for all we know, none of the deep investigative options are worth it (especially since the one we have access to is 50k for a terrible ability.)

I think it's worth noting that we don't know how much info printing press actually gives us. Assignment said it 'hints'.

[Merlyn]

No project can be selected more than twice, or more than once in two consecutive Days. Development projects can't be selected more than once period, and no more than one Development project can be selected each Day.

@mod, does this mean more than twice in the whole game, or that we can select the same project twice in a day?

Whatch out, money you spend may end up financing Them.

I'm gonna put out an alternative to the idea of percentages- some of these projects are direct funnels to the scum.

[Merlyn]

I also support printing press, it's pretty clear later stuff is gonna cost more than the current budget and if we don't keep up increasing it it may be days before we can pick something really good.

then why not just up our income in anticipation of higher costs

VOTE: merlyn
HURT: trading outpost
HURT: Intelligentia

yeah I was mixing the two up

[Merlyn]

You're assuming that all better assignments cost 70k. I bet they cost more than that

I'm assuming we have to unlock the 70k project before unlocking the 80k project...can't have a shopping hub until you have that outpost to expand on

yeah I agree?

[Merlyn]

Autopsy ($10,000) -- discover alignment of a dead target.

Hey, does this mean we won't know if we limmed scum or not unless we pick this?

[Merlyn]

yeah I agree?

it wasn't apparent at the time since I can't read your mind and you "were mixing the two up."

But we can't bank money. So it's another 60k tomorrow. I think that fact that printing press is an option implies that in future days there will be assignments that cost more than 60k.

If on, say, day 3, an amazing assignment is available for 80k we will have to vote in printing press more than once and we won't be able to get amazing assignment till day 6 at the earliest. unless we keep up with printing press from the start we're really choosing to put any future high priced assignments out of our reach

I think you mean trading post.

We can’t bank but we can get up to 90k with trading post and a sacrifice.

But we can't bank money. So it's another 60k tomorrow. I think that fact that printing press is an option implies that in future days there will be assignments that cost more than 60k.

If on, say, day 3, an amazing assignment is available for 80k we will have to vote in printing press more than once and we won't be able to get amazing assignment till day 6 at the earliest. unless we keep up with printing press from the start we're really choosing to put any future high priced assignments out of our reach

I think you mean trading post.

We can’t bank but we can get up to 90k with trading post and a sacrifice.

yeah my bad, I was mixing the two up

[Merlyn]

VOTE: penguin power this is a utopia, penguins have exactly the right amount of power[/vote]

HURT: neighborhood watch to not have day talk early on could be more damaging then later when there a groove.

I also support printing press, it's pretty clear later stuff is gonna cost more than the current budget and if we don't keep up increasing it it may be days before we can pick something really good.

If you mean Trading Outpost to up the budget to 70k, I disagree. I initially felt like it was an obviously good choice but then I realized the budget doesn't carry over so the extra value is lost if it's not used. And there's very few ways to get an exactly 70k daily spend right now, even fewer of which seem any good. If there's something really cool that unlocks later and needs the boost we can go for the upgrade then. Remember, we can't use developments more than once so 70k is the most our regular daily budget will be and something like Sacrifice that gives a temporary boost will be needed in order to get a larger amount.

So possibly we want to wait to use Sacrifice. I was thinking our chances of hitting scum were worst on day one so the benefit was most likely to kick in, but was overlooking that it was separately handled by whoever voted for it rather than a function tacked onto the elimination, so that could be a bit alarming if scum are voting for it.

HURT: Bureau of Investigations

This feels fiscally irresponsible to me, but I'm not confident enough to argue it further

[Merlyn]

tbh i dont think daytalk is that important. the mafia site i come from doesn't have mafia daytalk so i don't see it as a huge loss for scum

I recently saw a game in sign ups announce it didn't have day talk for scum and 4 people dropped out immediately and the mod had to put it back in. I know it will eff people up

[Merlyn]

Sacrifice ($0)

-- if target Utopian is not an Insurgent, they die and town gets $20,000 more in tomorrow's budget.

vs

Trading Outpost ($20,000)

-- ups the daily budget to $70,000.

theres a difference in wording

sacrifice is a one time gain, trading post is not.

sacrifice is so beyond useless right now, why are we AIMING to get a townie killed when we should be preserving our numbers? sacrifice will be much more useful when we KNOW WHAT WE WANT TO DO WITH THE $$

Are we just not voting for a lim today then?

My point is sacrifice can just be the regular lim but we get paid for it.

But ehh I’m not gonna argue more for it

HURT: trading post

I find this line of thinking so odd, it's the second time you've brought up not using our lim. Which we could still do even IF we went for sac. VOTE: RCEnigma

[Merlyn]

maybe Printing Press is a better vote today and then we can do Trading Post tomorrow? Election Security or Intellegentia would be a good second.

HURT: Printing Press

I don't think printing press is worth it roden

Think about it! Do you think the game will end so quickly? No right?
We have time to unlock each of the options to gain more, so by going printing press its just setting us back since we can only do one development.
We will have to gain more money and unlock more stuff eventually, so why not get started on it now instead of just wasting time to gain info on what they are? We'll simply gain the same info once we unlock the next stuff anyways.

ups the daily budget to $70,000.

implies that its a permanent fix, otherwise "daily" wouldn't be there, and instead it would be worded like "the next days budget". This is why trading outpost is still worthy enough to waste our time on.
It'll be shitty to unlock cool new stuff just to not have the money for it, which is why trading outpost is the one thats most useful to unlock first.

printing press will waste our valuable time please please please listen to me kind sir
it'll take longer just to achieve the same result!

I understand that the bigger budget is permanent, it's why I voted for it at first. I just think the reasoning for getting the Printing Press first also makes sense. Like what advantage do we gain by getting the bigger budget Day 2 instead of Day 3 vs getting more info for spending options Day 2 instead of Day 3?

I mean, I can see something popping up tomorrow that we want and won't be able to get with the smaller budget, I don't think that's too much of a stretch

[Merlyn]

Spoiler:

Sacrifice ($0)

-- if target Utopian is not an Insurgent, they die and town gets $20,000 more in tomorrow's budget.

vs

Trading Outpost ($20,000)

-- ups the daily budget to $70,000.

theres a difference in wording

sacrifice is a one time gain, trading post is not.

sacrifice is so beyond useless right now, why are we AIMING to get a townie killed when we should be preserving our numbers? sacrifice will be much more useful when we KNOW WHAT WE WANT TO DO WITH THE $$

Are we just not voting for a lim today then?

My point is sacrifice can just be the regular lim but we get paid for it.

But ehh I’m not gonna argue more for it

HURT: trading post

I find this line of thinking so odd, it's the second time you've brought up not using our lim. Which we could still do even IF we went for sac. VOTE: RCEnigma

Why do you think this is more likely to come from scum versus town with a different opinion on mech?

Something about voluntarily choosing no lim on D1 doesn't feel town to me.

[Merlyn]

*Answer your question at least from Marci's perspective

I'm kinda eh on whether a "self-conscious" tell is AI - I feel like it'd vary from person to person more than anything - but saying Cakez is experienced doesn't really make sense unless you're saying he's too experienced to drop a tell like that

I am just saying it is AI, unless you think Cakez is a noob......then maybe I get the read.

But it is a super weak reason to scum read someone, especially to the point where you are looking for their buddy(s).

And then when getting some pressure from me, start acting dismissive.

Pre Edit: Marci, calling someones in game play isn't mean.....just wait until you see what I am capable of lol.

But I just don't understand how you can make, what seems to me, a solid scum read based off that one Cakez post unless you have some solid meta read on them.

-Drew

Mod

we are voting Snivy as well.....though I think I misspelled their name lol.....so VOTE: Snivy

Fixed

So you pushed Marcistar pretty hard there for a minute. This post doesn't feel like you're sold on her responses, but I notice you've kept the snivy vote. What's the reasoning?

[Merlyn]

VOTE: Merlyn

Not fully understanding the Merlyn votes.

-Drew

2 parts curious what about RCE made her want to vote there when lots of other people were also pushing things that were maybe mechanically suboptimal from her POV

1 part I don't feel like keeping my RVS vote and saw possible momentum elsewhere

I actually can't think of anything else that I find mechanically suboptimal but the idea of a no lim for no reason. What's given you the impression there are lots of people I could be pushing for mech but aren't?

[Merlyn]

I actually can't think of anything else that I find mechanically suboptimal but the idea of a no lim for no reason. What's given you the impression there are lots of people I could be pushing for mech but aren't?

I remember you were pushing for increasing the budget pretty hard and several ppl disagreed with that

Pushing hard is a bit of stretch I think. I'm not even voting it, it's my second choice.

[Merlyn]

oh hello pagetop

[Merlyn]

wow was not expecting to be such a big topic of discussion this game
Deal with the Devil - why get into an argument with marci over her push on me? what read did you get on marci from that interaction?

I was trying to figure out what it is about your entrance to the game that made you so scummy to them.

I was feeling there vagueness around answering it was telling.

-Drew

Hello, little devils, I had a question for you too around this higher up on the page

[Merlyn]

Mb you spent more time talking about it than neighborhood watch

Yeah that's true enough. I think I'm the only one voting it though so the discussion around trading post which actually had traction seemed more important.

[Merlyn]

I guess my qualm with [p]181[/p] is - why is this something worth voting over when at least one person was going to be yeeted out via Sacrifice anyway? Two day eliminations is quite punishing for the town (Double Day setup is 13 town vs 3 scum), but even assuming that Merlyn doesn't know that, what is the material difference between the two options? It seems like a fairly minor point of disagreement imo.

Some of this is greek to me. No idea if you're right or wrong, no idea if that setup applies to this game. It is a fairly minor point, I have to give you that, but like, yeah and? What is anybody going to be pushing early D1 that's not a minor point? Your push on me is over something pretty minor.

I don't even like RC's responses (or non responses) to my vote. Basically they've let two other folks do the arguing for them- when they finally addressed it, it wasn't even to me directly, but to the two folks arguing in his favor. It feels lurky to me.

My take on Devil and Marci is TvT. Devil Drew is playing the way I've grown to expect him to as town which is looking for loose strings to pull and seeing if anything unravels. I get the thought process behind the snivy vote, don't know if I agree yet or not, but the vote itself is not inherently scummy. Marci's confidence strikes me as town, that kind of posting without careful evaluation and reevaluation I see from scum a lot.

I have to think more about the Cakez thing. My first impulse it that it's overblown but I don't know- it is kind of weird to say you're keeping your random vote stage vote until...I guess it's not more random? And then voting anyway, for a lurker. It's like little pings.

[Merlyn]

I'm well aware that some people consider it vital. I don't share that experience at this point, so I'm curious whether that idea is widespread here.

Probably a playstyle thing, personally I love a PT with daytalk, even if a masonry/hood......very helpful to bounce ideas off of someone/someones......so if I were scum, I would hate losing it.

But ya, can be worse not having it later in the game.

-Fuck me.....Drew

Buy a girl a drink first

[Merlyn]

I guess my qualm with [p]181[/p] is - why is this something worth voting over when at least one person was going to be yeeted out via Sacrifice anyway? Two day eliminations is quite punishing for the town (Double Day setup is 13 town vs 3 scum), but even assuming that Merlyn doesn't know that, what is the material difference between the two options? It seems like a fairly minor point of disagreement imo.

Some of this is greek to me. No idea if you're right or wrong, no idea if that setup applies to this game. It is a fairly minor point, I have to give you that, but like, yeah and? What is anybody going to be pushing early D1 that's not a minor point? Your push on me is over something pretty minor.

I don't even like RC's responses (or non responses) to my vote. Basically they've let two other folks do the arguing for them- when they finally addressed it, it wasn't even to me directly, but to the two folks arguing in his favor. It feels lurky to me.

My take on Devil and Marci is TvT. Devil Drew is playing the way I've grown to expect him to as town which is looking for loose strings to pull and seeing if anything unravels. I get the thought process behind the snivy vote, don't know if I agree yet or not, but the vote itself is not inherently scummy. Marci's confidence strikes me as town, that kind of posting without careful evaluation and reevaluation I see from scum a lot.

I have to think more about the Cakez thing. My first impulse it that it's overblown but I don't know- it is kind of weird to say you're keeping your random vote stage vote until...I guess it's not more random? And then voting anyway, for a lurker. It's like little pings.

Walk me through this "Marci and Devil are TvT" thought process a little more, atm that read feels way too premature. I have my own reasons for town reading Marci, but I don't get how you landed on town!Marci here.

Why don't you let me know what you don't understand about it and I'll clarify

[Merlyn]

25 year old Glenlivet?

Am I...in the Whiskey Pocket(TM)??????

I actually am with Roden here, elaborate on your Marci town read please.

Are you asking what I mean by towny confidence, or? I'll quotes the posts I mean if so

[Merlyn]

You never addressed to me what was even scummy about the idea. So it’s not productive for me to draw it out. Isn’t even an angle I was going to continue bringing up and I said as much.

Okay- sacrifice isn't just like the lim only with 20K like you said in 151, we only get the money if we hit town. Which- we don't want to do, we want to hit a wolf. And a lim is free, right? We get to have two projects plus a lim. It's like 3 actions in my mind. Plus, it's not like trading post, the money is a one time thing from my understanding.

So to me you were pushing an idea that would a) take our 3 actions down to 2; b) only benefit us more than the third missing action if we fucked up; c) even if we got the benefit, it may not benefit us at all bc we don't know that the billboard is like, we don't even have 2 days worth of billboard to compare. It seems like a great way for scum to have us waste an action and potentially get nothing in a future day to boot.

I did see you kind of hand wave the idea away after marci brought some of this up already, I can't find the post but you literally we like 'ehh', and it just pinged me as a gambit scum could easily try and drop after.

[Merlyn]

I don't think Sacrifice is a good idea to use today. I would rather wait until we have a collective POE and we know what we want to do with the money, potentially after some upgrades. If we do use Sacrifice and hit scum, we can use Assassination to get the double kill and don't have to burn money on an Autopsy. That plan is better if we have Trading Outpost though because then we don't give the Insurgence a guaranteed $20k.

- Alianna

I agree with a lot of this, but where are you getting that the 20K goes to the insurgents if we don't get it?

[Merlyn]

So when I first brought up sacrifice as an immediate result, I thought it worked like, if we use it and it hit a townie they would just flip and the action of getting extra budget would be a tomorrow thing. I didn’t read the rule about the targeting needing a council of only the people that voted it. So the alternative to me was have all players possible vote it to be in the council. Minus two, this makes it more like a duel mechanic but I can see the drawback of not having the two candidates present, that’s what the day phase is for though.

My counter to the 3 actions versus 2 thing is that I fully understand using sacrifice on top of the day elimination has the potential to put town in a hole. I don’t gamble that hard. But the day elim has the potential to hit town regardless and we get nothing from it where the sacrifice does still benefit town if we miss. Does that make sense? Mitigate the maximum damage by not using the day lim. Use the sacrifice which doesn’t fund scum at all this night phase, also get an extra pt with the town in it, possibly gain budget. The con is we might hit town but that’s a risk that exists even if sacrifice isn’t used.

I don’t see it is scum sided but enough people disagreed that I didn’t feel like it was worth pursuing anymore. I don’t think my mind is fully changed on utilizing it, but I’m not going to campaign more for its support.

Also I said Marci can use me for her sacrifice Guinea pig. The first time was sarcastic cuz yeah what a way to go in your first game back but the second time it’s fine, if they feel I’m the scum for bringing it up then go for it.

Okay, I can see a world where this is just you and I disagreeing on how good a strategy is. I think I'd give you more town points for volunteering as tribute if sacrifice was like the leading project instead of seemingly a no-go, but yeah, okay. UNVOTE:

[Merlyn]

what if the amount of money we spend correlates to how many kills mafia gets

the entire section for voting makes me paranoid that mafia can change the vote drastically, like a governor for example

yeah I get that, but I just figure it's all academic at least until one day and night has gone down and we have something to take a look at. Like we could spin our wheels endlessly talking about it D1 but it doesn't really help us go forward I think.

[Merlyn]

I don't think Sacrifice is a good idea to use today. I would rather wait until we have a collective POE and we know what we want to do with the money, potentially after some upgrades. If we do use Sacrifice and hit scum, we can use Assassination to get the double kill and don't have to burn money on an Autopsy. That plan is better if we have Trading Outpost though because then we don't give the Insurgence a guaranteed $20k.

- Alianna

I agree with a lot of this, but where are you getting that the 20K goes to the insurgents if we don't get it?

If we hit scum with a Sacrifice, we don't get the $20K bonus and therefore only have $60K to spend the next day. Assassination costs $60K, so if we were to use it to kill the confscum, which would be the most efficient way to use an Assassination due to the lack of flip not mattering, we would only be able to do that one project and setup-specific rule 7 would kick in. Increasing the budget would prevent this problem from happening.
Mind you, we also don't know how much money the Insurgence gets when we do spend it on projects. So idk.

- Alianna

I think I'm understanding that part, including why this plan would be better with Trading Post. But like you just said, we don't know what the 'watch out you might fund the insurgents' thing means, and it sounded to me in the original post like you were saying that if town doesnt get the 20K on the flip for hitting town, that the scum get 20K instead, and I was wondering where you'd gotten that idea

[Merlyn]

ok then lets wagon penguin now

lol why?

[Merlyn]

Yes I am waiting for Merlyn to explain her a reads a bit more, is weird she can't even when directly asked by multiple people.

You are? How weird, I'm waiting for you to answer MY question and you never did.

I actually am with Roden here, elaborate on your Marci town read please.

Are you asking what I mean by towny confidence, or? I'll quotes the posts I mean if so

I also asked Roden for clarification on this, and didn't get anything back.

Why don't you let me know what you don't understand about it and I'll clarify

I asked for more because, well, let's go back to this read in question:

Marci's confidence strikes me as town, that kind of posting without careful evaluation and reevaluation I see from scum a lot.

This is such a simple statement there's really nothing to not understand here from my point of view. Marci has a way of posting that I think scum find hard to duplicate. I can offer multiple examples of this if you want me to- again, that's why I asked. I also don't think it's premature to start reading folks on a vibe this early in the game.

[Merlyn]

I don't think Sacrifice is a good idea to use today. I would rather wait until we have a collective POE and we know what we want to do with the money, potentially after some upgrades. If we do use Sacrifice and hit scum, we can use Assassination to get the double kill and don't have to burn money on an Autopsy. That plan is better if we have Trading Outpost though because then we don't give the Insurgence a guaranteed $20k.

- Alianna

I agree with a lot of this, but where are you getting that the 20K goes to the insurgents if we don't get it?

If we hit scum with a Sacrifice, we don't get the $20K bonus and therefore only have $60K to spend the next day. Assassination costs $60K, so if we were to use it to kill the confscum, which would be the most efficient way to use an Assassination due to the lack of flip not mattering, we would only be able to do that one project and setup-specific rule 7 would kick in. Increasing the budget would prevent this problem from happening.
Mind you, we also don't know how much money the Insurgence gets when we do spend it on projects. So idk.

- Alianna

I think I'm understanding that part, including why this plan would be better with Trading Post. But like you just said, we don't know what the 'watch out you might fund the insurgents' thing means, and it sounded to me in the original post like you were saying that if town doesnt get the 20K on the flip for hitting town, that the scum get 20K instead, and I was wondering where you'd gotten that idea

I need someone to tell me if this is me wearing the old tinfoil hat, but was this TMI that Devil Alianna is now ignoring?

[Merlyn]

we're all having fun aren't we.

I mean, I am. Hope you are too

[Merlyn]

*Answer your question at least from Marci's perspective

I'm kinda eh on whether a "self-conscious" tell is AI - I feel like it'd vary from person to person more than anything - but saying Cakez is experienced doesn't really make sense unless you're saying he's too experienced to drop a tell like that

I am just saying it is AI, unless you think Cakez is a noob......then maybe I get the read.

But it is a super weak reason to scum read someone, especially to the point where you are looking for their buddy(s).

And then when getting some pressure from me, start acting dismissive.

Pre Edit: Marci, calling someones in game play isn't mean.....just wait until you see what I am capable of lol.

But I just don't understand how you can make, what seems to me, a solid scum read based off that one Cakez post unless you have some solid meta read on them.

-Drew

Mod

we are voting Snivy as well.....though I think I misspelled their name lol.....so VOTE: Snivy

Fixed

So you pushed Marcistar pretty hard there for a minute. This post doesn't feel like you're sold on her responses, but I notice you've kept the snivy vote. What's the reasoning?

Snivy was the first person to make me say 'oh so they are scum'.

Marci I don't like either(nothing personal, you seem very pleasant as a person lol), consider my vote on them in spirit.

-Drew

Merlyn, this question that I did answer??

No, my question in 346? That I quoted in the post you're responding to?

[Merlyn]

I don't think Sacrifice is a good idea to use today. I would rather wait until we have a collective POE and we know what we want to do with the money, potentially after some upgrades. If we do use Sacrifice and hit scum, we can use Assassination to get the double kill and don't have to burn money on an Autopsy. That plan is better if we have Trading Outpost though because then we don't give the Insurgence a guaranteed $20k.

- Alianna

I agree with a lot of this, but where are you getting that the 20K goes to the insurgents if we don't get it?

If we hit scum with a Sacrifice, we don't get the $20K bonus and therefore only have $60K to spend the next day. Assassination costs $60K, so if we were to use it to kill the confscum, which would be the most efficient way to use an Assassination due to the lack of flip not mattering, we would only be able to do that one project and setup-specific rule 7 would kick in. Increasing the budget would prevent this problem from happening.
Mind you, we also don't know how much money the Insurgence gets when we do spend it on projects. So idk.

- Alianna

I think I'm understanding that part, including why this plan would be better with Trading Post. But like you just said, we don't know what the 'watch out you might fund the insurgents' thing means, and it sounded to me in the original post like you were saying that if town doesnt get the 20K on the flip for hitting town, that the scum get 20K instead, and I was wondering where you'd gotten that idea

I need someone to tell me if this is me wearing the old tinfoil hat, but was this TMI that Devil Alianna is now ignoring?

I didn't interpret your post as something I needed to respond to. Was something unclear? Because that last sentence is something I answered already.

- Alianna

I kind of want someone besides you to tell me

[Merlyn]

25 year old Glenlivet?

Am I...in the Whiskey Pocket(TM)??????

I actually am with Roden here, elaborate on your Marci town read please.

Are you asking what I mean by towny confidence, or? I'll quotes the posts I mean if so

Well, answer the question how you see fit.

Seems pretty simple, you have a town read on Merci.....explain.

Or is this about the Whiskey Pocket, because not looking good for you lol.

-Drew

Please refer to my 423 post for my response to this.

[Merlyn]

25 year old Glenlivet?

Am I...in the Whiskey Pocket(TM)??????

I actually am with Roden here, elaborate on your Marci town read please.

Are you asking what I mean by towny confidence, or? I'll quotes the posts I mean if so

Well, answer the question how you see fit.

Seems pretty simple, you have a town read on Merci.....explain.

Or is this about the Whiskey Pocket, because not looking good for you lol.

-Drew

Please refer to my 423 post for my response to this.

What was the point of all this??

Roden and I had an issue with you not explaining your read on Marci, then you did answer......which i did see btw, hence why i thought you were referring to the first time you said I was ignoring your question.

Then you had me thinking I did miss something else......but no, just had me do busy work for no reason.

Between this and your questioning of Alianna, feels a whole lot like setting us up for a gotcha moment.

-Drew

I would be more than happy to drop it, let's feel free to table talking about this if there's nothing more to say.

[Merlyn]

I'm a simple guy, I see RCEnigma, I replace in without realizing what I'm getting into.

Hey FL! Quick question, are you scum?

[Merlyn]

I did answer, back in 386. I quoted you, so you should've seen a notification for it.

I don't understand your reason for town reading Marci and this explanation isn't helping. "Marci has a way of posting that I think scum find hard to duplicate" doesn't explain anything because it sounds like you're just describing Marci's play style. What does it matter if scum have a hard time duplicating the way Marci posts when we're asking you why you town read her in the first place?

The audacity of you to link to your post 386 and say that counted as an answer.

I really don't know what more I could say that would help you understand. It's an impression I have- that Marci isn't worried about the optics of what she says and whether folks sr it or not.

Spoiler: an assorted list of marcistar not really caring what others think of her reasons

i like trading outpost idea actually

but also ive sold myself on the appointed jury for ?? reasons. i think an extra vote will be fun.

quick! how do i use hurt tags

not feeling anything AI from anyone yet so I'll sit on my rvs for now

if i can be so bold as to say my very valid opinions,
i think this is sussy.

this cruel cruel game sucks because i can't tell who is partners with cakez yet..

Why Cakez?

I am getting a very phony vibe from marci, personally speaking.

-Drew

From my experience, her tone usually comes off that way regardless of alignment.

its probably because i am phony

this cruel cruel game sucks because i can't tell who is partners with cakez yet..

Why Cakez?

Hes doing this thing where hes complaining but doing nothing to fix the problem. It makes it look like hes here, but hes really just doing nothing. Usually people would just not say anything about having no reads unless theyre prompted.

It's a little early for that to be an issue, I think.

I think I only have like two games with him and they were a while back, but in the one I remember most I was scum vs town!Cakez and your description doesn't sound far off from his play there. He caught me pretty early on so I know he can hunt when it comes down to it.

isnt cakez a "good player" though?? drew seems to think so at least!

if drews confident hes town then im confident cakez will come in and give us some hella good reads to make me change my mind!!!

cakez will lead us to victory! everyone needs to believe in our angelic god cakez!!!!

I think it's hard for scum to write in this uncalculated way. Could she just be really good at replicating that vibe when scum? Sure, and I might change my opinion down the road. But my first take is to think she's towny.

[Merlyn]

FL is gonna sweet talk me into not suspecting him and that’s just going to make me suspect him more and then he’s going to flip the read and try to pin me on something minute that I won’t exactly have an answer for but will make us tunnel each other for a bit. Then I’ll think he’s town for it but keep a pocket scumread on him so he can’t see me keeping tabs on him till it’s too late. But he’ll expect me to do that because town him would expect me to do that and I’ll go back to tunneling because my gut was right. Then we will eventually land on town reading each other until one of us tries to vigi the other or one of us gets nked.

End scene.

...you just described my previous experience with FL with like 95% accuracy.

that is true, that is literally what happened with the two of you in the big hood/little hood mafia game

[Merlyn]

But like why tho

because i think there may be more intent than simply a misunderstanding

that's the only ping I've gotten all game zzz

can someone tell me if roden is being voted for anything out of rvs

I think the Roden wagon is a pressure wagon from RVS

It's always in season to pressure wagon me. Every game. Forever.

Sorry that this is still a thing. It’s why I asked if anyone was good at reading you.

Don’t think I’ve ever not been involved in mislimming you.

what is your thought on him this game then?

[Merlyn]

I was voting the slot to poke them, new player showed up and is doing things so the vote motivation isn't there anymore

What has FL done?

[Merlyn]

i think the overwhelmingly likely result will be that there is no mod lie & the action is wasted. honestly even if i discovered there *was* a mod lie at this point i'm not really sure what i'd do with that

Yeah, this is my take as well- I'm envisioning that the mod tells us if was a lie, but not what the lie was from the wording of inquiry. If that's not right, I do see more value in it.

[Merlyn]

No idea

I still think Merlyn might've TMI'd you and Devil and I think her way of reading you is too clinical. Overconfidence is NAI for you, in my experience how townie you are depends on how hard you hit the slay button. But I can also tell that our back and forth was going nowhere and it's better if I just disengage and observe for now.

You/Aureal/Devil/RC are my town reads right now, CSF/Leaf/Meow/Nurse/Penguin/Cakes are in my null stew pile, Merlyn/Snivy are under my watchful eye.

What's your reason for the townread on Marci? I remember you mentioned it was different than mine.

[Merlyn]

HURT: trading outpost I think the consensus here seems to be that scum would be more hurt later without daytalk so I'm going to take that into account.

[Merlyn]

i was saying mafia are hurt more by losing daytalk early

Oh, I missed that? I remember you saying you didn't think it was a powerful in and of itself but it would annoy scum not to have bc daytalk is fun but I didn't realize you agreed earlier was better

[Merlyn]

My very official and scientific thoughts on alignment so far:

I think they are probably town- meowmeow, marcistar, CSF, dealwiththdevil

I think they could be town? roden, rce, aureal

I am not feeling the town in them- snivy, cakez. penguin

idk- random nurse, FL

VOTE: sir cakez

[Merlyn]

I'll be in here later tonight to start analyzing.

Yeah, this was my night off and I was so exhausted I literally slept all but 2 hours of it. Extreme exhaustion from working 72 hours a week and being in school FT will do that to you.

As such, I need to change my general gameplay more to accommodate my work/school schedule. I've given up on giving read lists: they're too time-consuming. I will read up though, and ask questions as I can. Tonight I'll have a little time. I'll be V/LA Thurs-Saturday.

No need for a complicated or detailed readslist but can you share who you think might be scum and who might be town?

[Merlyn]

I have a newish policy that I don't interact about votes with players who vote me without a reason. I used to chase them down and demand they share it and it makes the game less fun for me.

I've also thought it's maybe worthwhile to keep quiet seeing who rates you high as town without really sharing what you've done thats so towny.

[Merlyn]

RCE can you move your votes onto one of the two wagons

Personally I think leaf is towny even though they don't have many posts

wtf is this post

[Merlyn]

RCE can you move your votes onto one of the two wagons

Personally I think leaf is towny even though they don't have many posts

wtf is this post

found RCEs vote strange whats the matter

Okay, I'll break it down.

1) You asked someone to move their vote to 'one of the the two wagons' . It's weird to me. It's like, not only do you want them to move their vote, but you want them to move it to where it will be the most likely to get someone limmed- but you don't care who of the two gets limmed. We have a decent amount of time left, so we don't need to be worried about a no lim or something.

2) Why do you feel either wagon is okay? You've mentioned more than once that you find penguin sus, but you've never even talked about cakez. It makes me wonder if you're fine with either lim bc you know they're town.

3) You didn't build a case to try and sway RCE onto a particular person or offer any reasons one of those two would be the right vote- why would they listen to you and stop voting for someone else and specifically jump onto the top two wagons with no reasoning from you?

4) Why do you care about RCE's vote anyway? Like, so what if you find FL town- FL literally has one vote. If you thought FL was town and in danger of being limmed this would make some sense, but literally what does it matter to you?

[Merlyn]

My vote on flavor is just because I am going to prioritize sorting him before anyone else in this player list, no offense to anyone else. But for my game and how I’m going to view the game on a given day is going to be more tied to what alignment I think FL is moreso than the rest of the lobby.

That said he hasn’t done anything yet so mounting a wagon without his input doesn’t get me anywhere. So I haven’t pressed it too hard. If my vote wasn’t here it would be on devil for the record.

I've never seen anyone do this before so I have no idea if it's a good idea or not. I do have a question- if your game is going to be FL only why aren't you pushing for a policy lim? It kind of feels like you're saying- don't count on any analysis from me that isn't tied to one player until they are resolved. If you're town, you're basically taking us down a player who could paying attention to the game and looking for solves. If you truly can't play the game until you know FL's alignment isn't it better for you to advocate we lim him regardless of what he's done?

[Merlyn]

looks like bureau of investigation is a lock, so I'm moving off trading outpost since we can't have both. What about election security? What if the 'wind' coming in tonight means votes will shift?

HURT: election security

[Merlyn]

RCE can you move your votes onto one of the two wagons

Personally I think leaf is towny even though they don't have many posts

wtf is this post

found RCEs vote strange whats the matter

Okay, I'll break it down.

1) You asked someone to move their vote to 'one of the the two wagons' . It's weird to me. It's like, not only do you want them to move their vote, but you want them to move it to where it will be the most likely to get someone limmed- but you don't care who of the two gets limmed. We have a decent amount of time left, so we don't need to be worried about a no lim or something.

2) Why do you feel either wagon is okay? You've mentioned more than once that you find penguin sus, but you've never even talked about cakez. It makes me wonder if you're fine with either lim bc you know they're town.

3) You didn't build a case to try and sway RCE onto a particular person or offer any reasons one of those two would be the right vote- why would they listen to you and stop voting for someone else and specifically jump onto the top two wagons with no reasoning from you?

4) Why do you care about RCE's vote anyway? Like, so what if you find FL town- FL literally has one vote. If you thought FL was town and in danger of being limmed this would make some sense, but literally what does it matter to you?

1) fair enough ig
2) i dont scumread cakez as much as i do penguin but sometimes i dont see them being a town a lot, so both wagons seemed ok, except one has a lot bigger of a chance at flipping scum
3) true i shouldve done that
4) i stared at the VC for a hot minute then saw RCE's vote looked back at their reason and thought that their reasoning wasnt exactly valid anymore

Snivy, can you give me a readslist? Doesn't have to be elaborate, but who are you thinking might be town and might be scum

[Merlyn]

none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

Yeah, I agree with this. This setup triggers my mech-based instincts to want to try to break it, but motivation sank and now I still barely even have any reads.

Hmmmm. What do you suppose is the meaning of the fact that there was a bunch of talk about the Merlyn wagon but nobody ever asked me why I voted her? Was it that obvious to everyone?

I figured you were sheeping me bc I remember I asked merlyn a question around the same time

Why is your motivation so low? What would get you more engaged

Good question. I'd say a decent bit out of game factors, and this game just feeling a bit of a chore to get into. Like, if I were solely in charge of deciding what to do, I'd make my own mind up. But I'm not much of a leader and it sorta feels like sometimes when I'm trying to get input to get brainstorming on something, it falls flat. So that kinda feels discouraging, when I can't do something myself but efforts to engage the group don't accomplish much.

I mean, I'm down to brainstorm. The thing you're voting for is winning atm, do you still want that or no? If so what's the second thing you think we should get?

[Merlyn]

I mostly voted Merlyn as a joke because of dividing conner and I thought she at least would get that.

dang, was that really the last game we played together? I for some reason feel like we play all the time. But no, I didn't pick that up, I needed like an emoji or something

[Merlyn]

Mmm, I think things are going well on the votes, Intelligentia is definitely something we want to use, this is a fine place for it, and that's our second project as votes stand. Election security might be useful but probably moreso later, appointed jury might be nice to give to towncore but again, probably better later so we have a better idea who that is. Raffle is fine anytime, perhaps slightly better earlier? Still on the fence about inquiry being useful at all. Neighborhood watch feels better later on unless we hit scum early. Those are what I'd consider for a second project today.

I don't think I understand the usefulness of raffle (it's fruit vendor, right? But we can't use it to confirm someone's town like you normally can, right?), but overall I think this is a reasonable list. I'm not against intellgentia, at least it's something we know what we're getting when if we vote it. I think you're right that jury is probably better in a future day. The main reason I'm pushing election security now is a pretty tinfoily idea that the 'winds' in the flavor must mean something, so maybe it means vote shifting?

[Merlyn]

To be fair, they just said they had a town read on me from it, i don’t think it was the most complex read ever, nor should it have been at that point.

You all making it seem like they were 100% lock towning me, when I don’t think they’d ever say they expect to be right, that’s just how they were feeling

Y’all hounding them off that little thing

tbf im only being "hounded" by 2 players im not worried

I felt like marcistar, Merlyn, and meowmeow had hounding energy.

Purely a Vote does not = hounding, but i felt energy coming at you from all those slots.

Some are fair to do so, but the fact 5 people became immediately interested in that isn’t nothing.

Soooo...I haven't judged or even asked anything about snivy's tr of you. I pushed him about his comment to RCE, and I asked for a townread. I think both of those things were okay to do. You may have instasorted him but I'm still working on it.

You and he becoming best buddies so quickly is interesting, but something I'd rather wait and see how it evolves over time vs. saying it's alignment indicative.

[Merlyn]

I have a soft spot for replacing in and protecting players who are getting targeted.

You, Cakez, and Aureal should be aware of that.

I happened to protect scum that game.

I don’t think i am this time.

♪ You say targeted, I say normal sorting, let's call the whole thing off! ♪

[Merlyn]

oh it's that song- 'you say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to, let's call the whole thing off'.

....No? That's ancient?

[Merlyn]

Spoiler: Merlyn progression on Cakez

I was voting the slot to poke them, new player showed up and is doing things so the vote motivation isn't there anymore

What has FL done?

My very official and scientific thoughts on alignment so far:

I think they are probably town- meowmeow, marcistar, CSF, dealwiththdevil

I think they could be town? roden, rce, aureal

I am not feeling the town in them- snivy, cakez. penguin

idk- random nurse, FL

VOTE: sir cakez

RCE can you move your votes onto one of the two wagons

Personally I think leaf is towny even though they don't have many posts

wtf is this post

found RCEs vote strange whats the matter

Okay, I'll break it down.

1) You asked someone to move their vote to 'one of the the two wagons' . It's weird to me. It's like, not only do you want them to move their vote, but you want them to move it to where it will be the most likely to get someone limmed- but you don't care who of the two gets limmed. We have a decent amount of time left, so we don't need to be worried about a no lim or something.

2) Why do you feel either wagon is okay? You've mentioned more than once that you find penguin sus, but you've never even talked about cakez. It makes me wonder if you're fine with either lim bc you know they're town.

3) You didn't build a case to try and sway RCE onto a particular person or offer any reasons one of those two would be the right vote- why would they listen to you and stop voting for someone else and specifically jump onto the top two wagons with no reasoning from you?

4) Why do you care about RCE's vote anyway? Like, so what if you find FL town- FL literally has one vote. If you thought FL was town and in danger of being limmed this would make some sense, but literally what does it matter to you?

This is kind of just a blank vote. Suggesting that Cakez could be town but still voting him feels weird.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Where did I suggest he's town? In the three posts you quoted above, 1) I asked Cakez a question 2) I said I was not feeling like they were town, and 3) a post to Snivy that doesn't have anything to do with Cakez?

This is actually a great example of why I struggle to sort you. You frequently make points about me that don't add up, and then I have to chase you down and point out you're misrepresenting. You do it often enough that I keep thinking you must be doing it on purpose.

[Merlyn]

2) Why do you feel either wagon is okay? You've mentioned more than once that you find penguin sus, but you've never even talked about cakez. It makes me wonder if you're fine with either lim bc you know they're town.

This seems to suggest that you believe that in a scum!Snivy world, Penguin and Cakez are town since Snivy is fine with either of their elims.

Okay, I'll give you that, I don't see Snivy and Cakez as scum partners. I asked Snivy that and my other questions, as well as asking him for a readslist, because I'm don't know that we're in a scum!Snivy world.

[Merlyn]

I don't think there was anything wrong with that vote on me really, other then like obv I'm town and they're wrong bur that doesn't make them scum. Basically same thing with Marcis push I think its bad but it doesn't necessarily= scum

I don't think that there's an open and shut case on you or anything, but what posts are you thinking about that I missed that make you obv town?

[Merlyn]

It reads like a discredit, but Marci's case is nothing and you're pretty much saying it's nothing. So it's like...it feels like you're looking for an argument with her. I think it would make more sense to look at the other people on your wagon who either followed Marci or came up with their own reason for voting you.

And this, yes I am discrediting her push and saying it's nothing. I don't really care if I get in an argument tho, ig it could help me generate more reads.

Is she town bad pushing you or scum bad pushing you though

I'm not sure yet, it's hard for me to tell cuz I'm just kinda annoyed with her and that's clouding my read

I don't think there was anything wrong with that vote on me really, other then like obv I'm town and they're wrong bur that doesn't make them scum. Basically same thing with Marcis push I think its bad but it doesn't necessarily= scum

I don't think that there's an open and shut case on you or anything, but what posts are you thinking about that I missed that make you obv town?

I meant that from my PoV like I know the vote is wrong but I understand why it was made and it was reasonable

you can continue being annoyed until you actually do something i think is townie

I kind of do think it might be towny that he's not countervoting me. Roden basically tee'd him up for it by saying my vote was the only bad one and Cakez didn't jump at it.

[Merlyn]

You too Merlyn. Why Cakez wagon? How are you pressing Snivy on him wanting a vote moved to Penguin or Cakez in 628, thinking it's suspicious when, as far as I can tell those two are also

your

scumreads at the time?

I voted for Cakez initially bc I didn't like the vote/unvote of the FL slot, and then until today they did nothing to make me reconsider the vote. They did just make one post I like, but I have to go back and read to see what I really think of him at this point.

Side note- Snivy saying he wanted someone to move a vote to 'one of the two top wagons' was odd regardless of what I think penguin or cakez's alignment is. It was an odd thing to say, and I've already outlined why in 628 so I won't get into that here again, and I'm not going to let me own tentative reads blind me to that.

[Merlyn]

My choice of Marcistar over RCE is I trust my ability to read RCE better as the game goes on, and I could see it possible theyre playing the way they are as town.

Question for you, why do you trust your ability to read RCE better than Marci? I saw that a few pages after this they mention that you two have only played once, and it was a long time ago (they weren't even sure you'd remember them).

Merlyn, idk. I think I got Merlyn Fever

I'm a pestilence that affects the best of us

[Merlyn]

I guess my qualm with [p]181[/p] is - why is this something worth voting over when at least one person was going to be yeeted out via Sacrifice anyway? Two day eliminations is quite punishing for the town (Double Day setup is 13 town vs 3 scum), but even assuming that Merlyn doesn't know that, what is the material difference between the two options? It seems like a fairly minor point of disagreement imo.

Some of this is greek to me. No idea if you're right or wrong, no idea if that setup applies to this game. It is a fairly minor point, I have to give you that, but like, yeah and? What is anybody going to be pushing early D1 that's not a minor point? Your push on me is over something pretty minor.

I don't even like RC's responses (or non responses) to my vote. Basically they've let two other folks do the arguing for them- when they finally addressed it, it wasn't even to me directly, but to the two folks arguing in his favor. It feels lurky to me.

My take on Devil and Marci is TvT. Devil Drew is playing the way I've grown to expect him to as town which is looking for loose strings to pull and seeing if anything unravels. I get the thought process behind the snivy vote, don't know if I agree yet or not, but the vote itself is not inherently scummy. Marci's confidence strikes me as town, that kind of posting without careful evaluation and reevaluation I see from scum a lot.

I have to think more about the Cakez thing. My first impulse it that it's overblown but I don't know- it is kind of weird to say you're keeping your random vote stage vote until...I guess it's not more random? And then voting anyway, for a lurker. It's like little pings.

damn, this reeks of Merlyn Scum with Marcistar tbh.

Why?

thank you, Roden, for calling this post out.

I believe I would have town read Marci at this point in the game as well.

Notice how Merlyn's comments focus more on why Drew is town rather than why marci is town here. It's giving a good reason why Drew is town, and then commenting on Cakez.

I think I gotta move ya down a tier, Merlyn.

If it's this post, I don't really get that- Devil got two whole sentences to my one about Marci, and I still think that what I said about Marci is okay for an early read. I'll have to accept the shame of being moved down in the FL tiers.

[Merlyn]

I don't have a read on FL and I'm not expecting to anytime soon.

[Merlyn]

you are truly a master at being scummy

how do you forget a read like that? i mean i get forgetting posts but aren't reads just like, idk, in your brain and integral to how you view other players

I'm not camel, I'm not even townreading camel, but I definitely forget reads as town and have to go back through my own ISO to find them. Usually it happens to me with weaker reads that I don't care about or even really believe in (which is a good portion of my D1 reads tbh) but felt like I had to make for the sake of having reads.

- Alianna

I get what you're saying here, but in the scenario you described it sounds like you get asked about something and then go back and look before you say anything, right? Do you ever as town say 'I don't have a read on you' after you've posted a readslist like Snivy did here?

One of the main reasons I ask people I'm trying to sort for a readslist is to see if they behave consistently towards it. It's why I asked one of Snivy this time. I know some folks are better at it than others but in general it is harder as scum to keep a fake readslist in your head at all times.

[Merlyn]

VOTE: Snivy, I think I like this better than Cakez

HURT: Intelligentia (PSA, atm the top two choices can't both be picked)

[Merlyn]

guys we have less than 2 days for deadline

So?

[Merlyn]

guys we have less than 2 days for deadline

So?

I dont wanna no lim by accident but we still need to find a good vote

VOTE: Cakez

meh

It's a plurality vote

[Merlyn]

Makes no sense for scumcamel to not go on Snivy here.

And townCamel should sheep it over time for survival.

Wait, who is marci in this?

[Merlyn]

Spoiler: wifom

[Merlyn]

I don't feel confident that Snivy is scum, but I would like a Marchi lim even less. I'm concerned to move my vote bc it will leave the Marci wagon in the lead and I like don't trust the wagon on Marci at all. The games most divisive player, Aureal as a pressure vote (I assume, since the reasoning was 'you didn't answer my question', and a player that's about to get replaced for inactivity who joined when asked by Aureal. Like, that's a terrible wagon.

[Merlyn]

Penguin or FL

[Merlyn]

just move your vote you shouldnt worry too much just vote who you think scum is

I'd rather snivy go than you

[Merlyn]

I don't feel confident that Snivy is scum, but I would like a Marchi lim even less. I'm concerned to move my vote bc it will leave the Marci wagon in the lead and I like don't trust the wagon on Marci at all. The games most divisive player, Aureal as a pressure vote (I assume, since the reasoning was 'you didn't answer my question', and a player that's about to get replaced for inactivity who joined when asked by Aureal. Like, that's a terrible wagon.

Weird take.

Who do you think I should be voting if you think it's just a pressure vote?

Also "most divisive"?

I don't think I made it clear, I meant FL was the most divisive, not you. Sorry!

Speaking of weirdness....Im not going to pick who you should vote for, figure that out yourself lol. I said why I was thinking you made a pressure vote and it's a reasonable take, and I figured you would come in and clarify one way or the other. I don't understand why you're not.

[Merlyn]

Merlyn, what exactly needs clarification? I'm not sure why you seem to think I can't find marci's hypocritical action and subsequent failure to give any explanations for her actions when questioned by both me and Flavor Leaf to be suspicious enough to be my top suspect. Calling it a pressure vote implies it's not very serious and I'd rather vote elsewhere. And I'm not sure why you'd think that.

I could absolutely think that you could find Marci suspicious for that if you had mentioned it at any point. You however said this about about Marci when voting:

VOTE: marcistar who hasn't answered me either

Penguin, join the Marci wagon, it's fun. We have... Um... Popsicles?

I must be missing the part where you said where you sussed for being hypocritical and not giving any explanations, can you point me to the posts?

[Merlyn]

VOTE: PenguinPower

this is the most recent vote so now im not getting limmed

I....don't think that's true

[Merlyn]

I'm confused by this argument. Snivy didn't do anything to change the elimination with the vote. It was Marci and continued to be Marci until that unvote from Infinity just now. If Snivy wanted to avoid becoming the top elimination candidate he should've voted Marci, not Penguin.

When you say 'It was Marci and continued to be Marci until that unvote from Infinity just now', do you mean that you think Marci was the lim if nothing changed? Because I believe it was (and still is) Snivy. That's my interpretation of the 'tiebreaks by seniority' rule- that the oldest vote was Devil on Snivy, so if they stay a tie it's still Snivy who gets limmed.

[Merlyn]

Huh, this is really something that we should be clear on.

@mod- can you define the tiebreak by seniority rule please?

[Merlyn]

Does sacrifice give us alignment too?

If town, they die and we get $20K.
If scum, no effect. So yes, we do get the alignment.

- Alianna

Okay. Cool

Let’s sacrifice me, and fade one of Marcistar, RCE or Infinity,

We then use an investigative down the line on the remaining of the 2.

This limits scum power tonight, gives us bonus cash, and gets a fade I think has scum energy

You're too obvtown to get sacrificed.

- Alianna

Alianna, have you played with FL before? He is 100% capable of saying this as scum. One hundred percent. He's very, very good at illiciting reactions like the one you just gave.

I don't think I can say how we should catch him if he's scum. I do know things that don't make him town. I'm not against his suggestion at all.

[Merlyn]

You need to step away from the keyboard, FL- I'm saying this as someone who enjoys playing with you. It was wrong of her to call you names but your responses are pretty bad too. It's just a game, if you're right about Marci and no one listens you'll get to say I told you so

[Merlyn]

I kinda liked flavor proposing himself as the sacrifice. It wouldn't be very easy to weasel out of that one, I think, unless only scum were in it and even then they'd be outed I think? I guess I'll keep reading to see if he sticks with this proposal though

What do you think about this if you've caught up? It's the only thing I really took note of in either argument that went on. My impression was that FL was offering to sac himself tonight, but from the argument he had with Roden it looks like he's saying he never meant for it to be tonight.

[Merlyn]

958 feels really fake to us

we're caught up now

reads:
rce, cakez, marci (these aren't super duper strong but marci seems even more town here based on meow's description)
meow, roden
snivy, nurse, merlyn
aureal, csf (just cause they posted a bunch and said nothing that stuck out as town)
flavor, devil

we're somewhat at peace with being the lim for today (though still holding out hope for nurse replacement to extent the day!)

we'll be around for 6 hours today and a couple hours before deadline tomorrow if people want to ask us stuff

Why does 958 feel fake to you? I was thinking that was a pretty reasonable explanation of why Deal Alianna thought it was a town reaction from meow.

[Merlyn]

Why does 958 feel fake to you? I was thinking that was a pretty reasonable explanation of why Deal Alianna thought it was a town reaction from meow.

it's hard to pin down, the part where alianna got slightly annoyed that she had to try to explain the read felt scummy cause townies are more likely to be happy to explain townread or just not feel pressure to i think. the other part didn't ping so much but it did feel like a lot of words for something that should be super ai. like scum could post that for any other reason scum would townread town right

I see, I didn't take it as annoyance, I thought she was joking around

[Merlyn]

So Roden, Cakez, and Death are my town reads right now.

I think you mean Devil, pretty sure Death is always the SK

[Merlyn]

I feel okay keeping my snivy vote. It's starting to feel like after the danger passed they chose to fade into the background- they haven't used the extra time and pressure off to do anything.

[Merlyn]

he's at e-2 I believe

[Merlyn]

I got the bouquet, I don't think it matters if I say or not.

why didn't anyone get NK? My first immediate thought is that they need money to do it and didn't get enough for whatever reason. We spent 30 out of 60k, so either a) not using our full budget is irrelevant or b) an NK costs more than 30K.

All of yall voting for torture, who is the target you have in mind and why isn't it always Flavor Leaf?

[Merlyn]

HURT: torture

Guildhall or trading outpost probably the best two choices after, unless we get really bloody and sacrifice too

[Merlyn]

why didn't anyone get NK? My first immediate thought is that they need money to do it and didn't get enough for whatever reason. We spent 30 out of 60k, so either a) not using our full budget is irrelevant or b) an NK costs more than 30K.

given the fact there are 4 scum, does the lack of kill feel strange to you?

The lack of kill is interesting- I don't see a world where a scum team decides that they won't kill N1, so it's worth trying to figure out what went wrong. The number doesn't really change my thoughts on that though, what were you thinking on that part?

[Merlyn]

Okay, I think Hu Tao’s town.

I think Enchant’s town.

I think Devil’s town.

I think Cat Scratch is town.

And I think Snivy is town.

FL, is Enchant town to you because of explaining to you why trading post is a good idea? (this exchange below)

If we plan to use Torture, Trading Post is important as it allows us to get 70k robux

Then we can afford Torture+Build on Inquisition.

Hmm, that makes sense.

[Merlyn]

there are potential secret half votes in play, i think, so we have to be careful.

there are potential secret half votes in play, i think, so we have to be careful.

i think we should make a new rule that everyone should unvote all other wagons if someone expresses intent to hammer then

If you two are concerned about this why not advocate for election security?

[Merlyn]

Marci, I'm assuming you still sr Cakez, but knowing that there are 4 scum, what are your other reads?

[Merlyn]

idk i lowkey think 25% is pretty high odds of it flopping lol

My take is this- we torture, and if the result comes up red we use sac on them. That way 75% kill a scums, 25% get more money

[Merlyn]

idk i lowkey think 25% is pretty high odds of it flopping lol

My take is this- we torture, and if the result comes up red we use sac on them. That way 75% kill a scums, 25% get more money

I don't need to explain why this is bad proposal.

It's just flat out wrong, to start. That's not what sacrifice does.

oh, I missed that sacrifice doesn't kill someone if they're not scum. Wow, makes sac in general a lot less appealing to me.

[Merlyn]

there are potential secret half votes in play, i think, so we have to be careful.

there are potential secret half votes in play, i think, so we have to be careful.

i think we should make a new rule that everyone should unvote all other wagons if someone expresses intent to hammer then

If you two are concerned about this why not advocate for election security?

Because it wouldn’t change the mechanics of today.

It was on the board yesterday as an option, I even voted for it, and neither of these two were worried then.

[Merlyn]

Don’t think it’s as big a deal as you are making it out to be. Or maybe you aren’t and I’m thinking you are. But idc if people are careful with their voting.

Eh, I don't think asking a question is a big deal

[Merlyn]

there are potential secret half votes in play, i think, so we have to be careful.

there are potential secret half votes in play, i think, so we have to be careful.

i think we should make a new rule that everyone should unvote all other wagons if someone expresses intent to hammer then

If you two are concerned about this why not advocate for election security?

Because it wouldn’t change the mechanics of today.

It was on the board yesterday as an option, I even voted for it, and neither of these two were worried then.

is my rule not fair?

I don't think I understand your rule, can you explain to me what it accomplishes?

[Merlyn]

Okay, I think Hu Tao’s town.

I think Enchant’s town.

I think Devil’s town.

I think Cat Scratch is town.

And I think Snivy is town.

FL, is Enchant town to you because of explaining to you why trading post is a good idea? (this exchange below)

If we plan to use Torture, Trading Post is important as it allows us to get 70k robux

Then we can afford Torture+Build on Inquisition.

Hmm, that makes sense.

Reposting in case you missed my question by accident.

[Merlyn]

Marci, I'm assuming you still sr Cakez, but knowing that there are 4 scum, what are your other reads?

reposting for same reasons

[Merlyn]

why didn't anyone get NK? My first immediate thought is that they need money to do it and didn't get enough for whatever reason. We spent 30 out of 60k, so either a) not using our full budget is irrelevant or b) an NK costs more than 30K.

given the fact there are 4 scum, does the lack of kill feel strange to you?

The lack of kill is interesting- I don't see a world where a scum team decides that they won't kill N1, so it's worth trying to figure out what went wrong. The number doesn't really change my thoughts on that though, what were you thinking on that part?

the scum team having 4 members makes them much much more powerful. given the fact our powers are... not really that good, i think mafia not having a fictional kill, or probably a more limited one they couldn't use tonight, makes a lot of sense. i was kind of trying to gauge your thought process as to why you sounded surprised at the no kill

Okay, I get where you're coming from. I was surprised- I think I always have a reaction when I wake up and see there's been no NK where I go 'ooooooooooh, something went wrong in scumland!!' Your thought process on why there wasn't makes sense to me though.

[Merlyn]

i understand what you're saying here in broad strokes, but how much experience do you have with fl? like, i think this read is more believable if you have seen a strong pattern of him coming in like this as town and not as scum, but like replacing in and being initially distant definitely seems to me like something town fl is incredibly capable of doing?

i feel like this is more indicative on townFL, but end of the day, kinda NAI. i generally wait until something grabs me

i mean i've seen scum fl do this before. that's not really the problem, i think you should get tortured and i will sort you that way. i am more concerned with like why this line of thought is convincing drew i guess

I'm still townreading both of you, so I'm not going to support FL being the target here. I think it's best used on a scummier slot. (Not that I don't have any flavor-related concerns about it. But I know nobody is going to care about that because mechanics.)

I've been in agreement with too many things that meow has said to not townread her. And, oddly enough, same with Leaf. Plus I'm inclined to believe what he said about not getting angry as scum, that's too easy for someone to disprove especially in a game where there's people who are pretty familiar with him.

im actually fine using torture on RCE too, but we should probably decide beforehand

I think it's a huge mistake not to use torture on FL, here's why. He's a player who chats a lot and influences the gamestate strongly because of that. If he's scum, he is capable of driving the gamestate where he wants it to go as players get tripped up on whether to believe the things he's saying, I can speak to this personally. (He'll probably still influence the gamestate a lot even if he's town but as conf town we would know that there's no malevolence behind it).

Now look at how something has gone down: FL offered to be sacrifice, then had a spat with Roden when Roden attempted to do it and told Roden that he'd always meant it to be a different day. Now it's a different day, and he's gone on record that we should torture instead- if he's scum, he can't really wiggle out of that by saying he meant a different day or he's changed his mind, right? If he is scum, he has to rely on his teammates to get him out of this.

So yeah, if you're town and you're reading FL town too, I don't know how you're going to argue that it's not still good for gamestate to know for sure. In my eyes anyone who starts to argue against it is someone to watch closely.

[Merlyn]

I'm still townreading both of you, so I'm not going to support FL being the target here. I think it's best used on a scummier slot. (Not that I don't have any flavor-related concerns about it. But I know nobody is going to care about that because mechanics.)

Who?

Who are the scummier slots? RCE and marci for sure... uh...

ugh who the hell else is in this game...

Cakez I guess? Haven't had that much of a read on him, he feels sorta lost like I have been, like we both were in the other game we played so I've kinda been townleaning there, but not really strongly. A few things have felt off.

*checks playerlist* Damn, basically everyone else has been a townread too. Merlyn I suppose, my read on her has been very up and down and for rather pie-in-the-sky reasons. Snivy and Enchant are weaker townreads.

What are your pie in the sky reasons for sr'ing me, Aureal? I kind of have my own guess (meta related) but I might be off base

[Merlyn]

Snivy, can you explain your read progression on RCE to me? I see you were scumleaning then they moved up to null-

i townread marci leaf
townlean includes meowmeow and aureal
null is everyone else but notably devil
scumlean is merlyn rce and cakez
scum is penguin and snivy

town: aureal? leaf
townlean: meow marci
null: everyone and STILL notably devil
scumlean: cakez
scum: penguin snivy

i believe csf you and nurse are in the middle because i barely got an influence from you 3

But now you've made a vote on them and you're down to torture them.

hi there, im gonna make a vote

VOTE: RCEnigma

HURT: Torture

doubting the leaf read too

im actually fine using torture on RCE too, but we should probably decide beforehand

[Merlyn]

So yeah, if you're town and you're reading FL town too, I don't know how you're going to argue that it's not still good for gamestate to know for sure. In my eyes anyone who starts to argue against it is someone to watch closely.

I wouldn't have been advocating for using Sacrifice on FL here either. Because I'm townreading him.

]That whole discussion was not something I ever agreed with so there's nothing for him to 'wiggle out of' as far as I'm concerned

. Setting up chains of flips based on having a wrong read isn't a healthy state for town.

What I want to know here is: who is actually scumreading FL? I think that's the important factor here. Please raise your hand if you support this because

you

actually don't trust Flavor Leaf rather than because of some perceived sentiment that other people don't so may as well go along with it because we were gonna use sacrifice anyway or something.

What he would be wiggling out of is his own agreement to be tortured and has nothing to do with you or anyone's reads on him.

I don't trust FL and I'm scumleaning him.

[Merlyn]

What are your pie in the sky reasons for sr'ing me, Aureal? I kind of have my own guess (meta related) but I might be off base

Well, first you agreed with me when I commented on the weather thing from the first post flavor. I... Well that was more of a moment of "ha ha I'll look so insightful if this actually DOES mean something!!" than actually thinking it would mean something. You seemed fairly serious in your agreement though, which made me feel rather weird about your reaction. In Scarfolk I made a read for a reason that I didn't actually have a lot of confidence in because I wanted to cover for a PR read and scum picked it up to amplify it, so that kinda gave me some of the same vibes.

Eventually I started liking your takes more and I can't quite remember anything specific about why, but I was starting to get tired of my vote on you. I had thought about your theory about how scum might get funds determined by what action we take, and decided it was likely a take from town because scum wouldn't TMI giving us ideas like that if it does actually work that way. I didn't even remember it came from you, I had to go back and look for who had said it and it turned out it was you (that was where I started bringing up more reads because I was reading back and forming them a little more).

Now I'm second-guessing that you wouldn't TMI that, because the new stuff we got is really actually giving me doubts about what's going on here. Torture is so obviously the 'right' thing to do here, mechanics-wise. Having to add 'mechanics-wise' to that sentence should give you pause. I'm feeling like it's a lot more likely the setup does operate by funding insurgents based on which action we take and that is clearly a prime choice. We may be operating on Undertale principles here. The game we see makes us want to do what the rules make us think is optimal, but actually we're supposed to be applying real-world morality.

Okay, definitely different from what I thought. Fwiw I had come up with that thought on the clouds on my own and was happy to see that someone else had thought the same. Of course I was serious, we were literally told that the flavor would have game elements in it.

Not really sure what to say or think about the rest of your thoughts re: TMI. Since we don't know how scum get its funds, its not really something that could be easily proven or disproven. On my side, I'm trying to decide if I think this is a real reason for a sr from you or a fake one from scum!Aureal. Idk, it's seems a bit odd to me but you did say that it was pie in the sky.

I'm not sure what Undertale is, but your thought is interesting. What about the game is making you think that we're supposed to be applying real world morality though? I'm not sure intelligentia or bureau read as morally positive things to me, more neutral leaning dark in real world. And the flavor of the game is- I mean, it's pretty clear that we don't really live in Utopia, the place is a post apocalyptic government controlled nightmare.

[Merlyn]

please sacrifice me guys xoxo

Hey Marci, I've asked you a couple of times now, what's your readlist?

[Merlyn]

I don't trust FL and I'm scumleaning him.

then are you willing to torture FL?

I refer you to my torture vote for the answer to this

[Merlyn]

I don’t mind being tortured, idk what Merlyn’s talking about there.

I don't know what you're referring to here

[Merlyn]

I don't trust FL and I'm scumleaning him.

then are you willing to torture FL?

I refer you to my torture vote for the answer to this

if you mean 1495 then idk what youre talking about

otherwise do tell

i have not read the last 2 pages either but the hyperposting is cool, i guess

no you're right it wasn't my torture vote

All of yall voting for torture, who is the target you have in mind and why isn't it always Flavor Leaf?

[Merlyn]

My readlist:

Meow, CSF, devil
Marci, RCE
Hu Tao, Aureal
Snivy, FL

[Merlyn]

like Merlyn and I have 2 of the same top town reads, and then there's meow, who could be town, and if so, scum will play up to them for sure.

Devil is like the person meow was pushing the most even.

i actually would bet the game on Merlyn being scum here over anyone else.

quoting this for posterity

[Merlyn]

My readlist:

Meow, CSF, devil
Marci, RCE
Hu Tao, Aureal
Snivy, FL

Can you explain your read on me? Or is it from who I replaced

I was a little higher on Roden, you just haven't done anything much since replacing in

[Merlyn]

lol I just realized I forgot about Cakez

[Merlyn]

VOTE: Snivy I think FL is pulling your strings from behind the scenes.

Something that's interesting here is that I keep expecting FL to at least mention that I played pretty differently in both dividing connor and in pokemon. In both those games I was a lazy and unprolific player. Even if it was something he mentioned like 'I still sr Merlyn here even though it was different because bloppity blop', he should at least bring it up.

I can link to the games, but there's also people here besides FL who've played in them.

[Merlyn]

they keep trying to act like i'm going to wiggle my way out of something, almost to too much of an extent, when like, there's really nothing to wiggle out of here. If I don't push a scum today that ends up me being obv town, then we should always just torture me.

To people who aren't FL:

Remember how on day 1 he offered to be sacrifice? And then he told Roden that he never meant for it to be day 1?
Remember how today he said, yeah, torture me! And now there's a string involved- you should torture me tomorrow if I don't push a scum today.

Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle

[Merlyn]

viewtopic.php?p=13835235#p13835235

Look at this post here. Merlyn was defending me, and town reading me, and saying they disagree on Black wagon, my main push that I faked a guilty on. Merlyn and I were scum together.

It was a political positioning, and yet disagreeing on a read, very similar to what's happening with Meowmeow and Meow's read on Devil.

__

Now if Meow is town, Dividing Connor Merlyn was scum and effectively spent the entire game town reading me, and pocketing me, showing that they do sit back behind a townie with the ability to get momentum, and this feels similar to what they're doing to Meow if Meow is town here.

I'm not disagreeing with Meow's read on Devil

[Merlyn]

im only trusting FL because majority seems to want to torture FL, and in a town!FL world scum could be getting enough money to kill a 75% IC

Only scum know how they get their money

[Merlyn]

I should say bus.

But yeah, you're grasping at straws with this wiggle thing, Merlyn.

Feels like it's all you got.

lol okay. Well, I'm fine with going first today if town does decide to follow your lead here. But I want you to go next then.

[Merlyn]

Fade Merlyn, if they're town, Torture me.

If they're scum, torture Meowmeow.

I'm down with this

[Merlyn]

(pageTOPPP)

[Merlyn]

also, i still think it probably leans Merlyn.

In Dividing Connor, I replaced in, and immediately defended ScumYessiree, partner of Merlyn. And Merlyn started town reading me hard the whole game, and tried to get me to vote their partner, and I wouldn't.

So Merlyn in a town situation knowing how I am with that, shouldn't ever think it's Snivy and I as the scum team imo.

I haven't tried to get you to vote Snivy this game

[Merlyn]

also, i still think it probably leans Merlyn.

In Dividing Connor, I replaced in, and immediately defended ScumYessiree, partner of Merlyn. And Merlyn started town reading me hard the whole game, and tried to get me to vote their partner, and I wouldn't.

So Merlyn in a town situation knowing how I am with that, shouldn't ever think it's Snivy and I as the scum team imo.

I haven't tried to get you to vote Snivy this game

yeah, but im not as tunnely as i was this game, im pretty spread out and all over the place, i feel.

i dont think im all over the place as scum tbh. im pretty consistent in my reads as scum. it's something i have to actively try to fake when i am scum.

In pokemon you sort of 'cycled through people' the way you do here- you'd pick a person, say they were scum, repeat a small list with their name and a couple of others. Then you'd ease up on them, and do the same with with another person. Then you'd come back to the original one.

[Merlyn]

someone asked me something bnut i forgot what it was

it was me dammit lol I asked you for reads!

[Merlyn]

Can you explain your reads on Aureal and Marcistar, Merlyn?

Aureal had a lot of posts D1 that felt kind of reasonable and level headed, but when I went back and read them I noticed they're most about mech. She was on the Infinity wagon. She townreads you and expressed doubt that we should even check your alignment. She's played with you- she wasn't sure you were town in dividing connor right till the end. Why isn't she a least doubting your alignment or seeing reason in checking it today?

Marci has moved down on my list a bit because although I've read her tone as town (I thought it was awfully confident and carefree for scum, and I got authentic vibes from it rather than scum pretending to be confident and carefree), getting her to do anything today has been like pulling teeth. I could see her as scum hiding in the background today. But even her post a minute ago makes me want to move her back up again.

[Merlyn]

did I just get pagetop AGAIN

[Merlyn]

also, i still think it probably leans Merlyn.

In Dividing Connor, I replaced in, and immediately defended ScumYessiree, partner of Merlyn. And Merlyn started town reading me hard the whole game, and tried to get me to vote their partner, and I wouldn't.

So Merlyn in a town situation knowing how I am with that, shouldn't ever think it's Snivy and I as the scum team imo.

I haven't tried to get you to vote Snivy this game

yeah, but im not as tunnely as i was this game, im pretty spread out and all over the place, i feel.

i dont think im all over the place as scum tbh. im pretty consistent in my reads as scum. it's something i have to actively try to fake when i am scum.

In pokemon you sort of 'cycled through people' the way you do here- you'd pick a person, say they were scum, repeat a small list with their name and a couple of others. Then you'd ease up on them, and do the same with with another person. Then you'd come back to the original one.

idk, i feel i was on Black and LLD since Day 1 there.

Full disclosure I didn't read D1 (when I repped in there had been 4000 posts. I think we ended at 7000?) so I'd have to go back and check, but Black is actually a good example of what I meant. You'd ease up on her and focus on someone else for a while, but you always came back.

[Merlyn]

i try not to get pagetops.

they are gross.

sounds like someone jealous of my pagetop, it's cool

[Merlyn]

I should say bus.

But yeah, you're grasping at straws with this wiggle thing, Merlyn.

Feels like it's all you got.

lol okay. Well, I'm fine with going first today if town does decide to follow your lead here. But I want you to go next then.

not sure if this is scum trying to be ballsy enough to appear town

Feels rather like it to me. Town

can

get defiant and want to 1v1, but the certainty of trying to bring someone else down with you is unwise and leans scum.

No one's ever accused me of being wise in mafia games

[Merlyn]

My readlist:

Meow, CSF, devil
Marci, RCE
Hu Tao, Aureal
Snivy, FL

What about Enchant and Cakez?

I forgot about them! So I guess null

[Merlyn]

VOTE: Marcistar

I think this is good. She's skated by largely on tone so far, but I feel like she's just been coming in to argue against people's scumreads of her instead of trying to find scum

I don't even know that I would even say she's doing that much.

VOTE: marcistar

This is...true. But is it really alignment indicative? I mean, as scum she should know refusing to post reads draws suspicion to her, it's such a basic thing.

[Merlyn]

I read dividing connor and kinda thought she was lurkwolf tbh. She doesn't feel like that here

It's definitely more reminiscent of my other game with scum Merlyn than dividing connor. She can definitely be active and townread and daring. It took me until elo to get her because she damn near bussed her rolecop partner on day one- it was townies jostling around at the last moment that saved them there while Merlyn sat on the wagon.

This is fair to bring up. I am trying to mix up styles so I won't be obvtown or obvscum when I play.

[Merlyn]

tommorow we should do Recount + Sacrifice/Raffle?

I don't have any interest in planning out tomorrow, flips could change stuff

[Merlyn]

I really really hope you guys don’t let FL talk the torture circle into being outside him or myself. Or I would have wasted a whole day not sorting FL.

You say this and I like it but I also notice that you're not helping to ensure it by voting for anything

[Merlyn]

I went back and looked through Marcis most recent games. This gameplay definitely reminds me of her play in anime music, including where she kind of just stopped playing (although that was towards the end), and she was town in that. The only scum game I read was one where she was a Hydra with gamma emerald- she was a lot more engaged in it though maybe that's bc she was hydra-ing.

I can see where I could be wrong, it's meta with a player I've never played before. But I haven't really seen a good case to lim her either. Is it a bummer that she's not really playing that much? Yeah. But I just don't see that as ai. Id rather go snivy or aureal.

[Merlyn]

I’m holding my vote for the secondary project.

why

If scum are backed into a corner I could see them trying to pull out of torture for another project to buy some time. I don’t think that’s going to happen because it’s so blatant but I’d rather not be blindsided if it does and we still have the option to maintain control (via unused votes).

You know that you can revote, correct?

Sure, why does that matter tho?

Nothing you say makes sense for me

I don't really get it either, but I'm not really clear on how the method they're using would benefit scum. I don't really get how it benefits either side I guess

[Merlyn]

Do you think I would lie about something that easily confirmable?

- Alianna

like i said, i needed to confirm for my own sanity

idk, maybe youre pulling a super slick maneuver i just want to be safe

This is the first thing Snivy has done all game that seems towny to me actually. You could have asked in the thread but you didn't. It's easily confirmable, so he's confirming, what's the problem?

[Merlyn]

Do you think I would lie about something that easily confirmable?

- Alianna

like i said, i needed to confirm for my own sanity

idk, maybe youre pulling a super slick maneuver i just want to be safe

This is the first thing Snivy has done all game that seems towny to me actually. You could have asked in the thread but you didn't. It's easily confirmable, so he's confirming, what's the problem?

I don't find it problematic, I'm just asking why he seems so concerned about it.

- Alianna

...wrong account.

- Alianna

lol this is the first time I've seen you altslip the other way around I think

[Merlyn]

Alianna bringing up that they brought it up with the mod is super townie

oooh, why?

[Merlyn]

I have a question about recount- has this been answered already?

Recount ($60,000) -- discover if there were one or more Insurgents on the wagon for the last execution.

Does this mean we learn how many insurgents, or is like a yes or no thing?

Pedit: it amuses me that you would post a link to where I was sacrificed with my blessing and I was town

[Merlyn]

Alianna bringing up that they brought it up with the mod is super townie

oooh, why?

What purpose does that have as scum?

Calling that out is just looking for something to call out

So something that has no purpose as scum is super townie to you? Sounds like FL style hyperbole, gotcha.

I would actually love it if someone changed the course of voting here by putting up some fake info from the mod, gambling that no one would question it. That would be a very awesome scumplay to me.

[Merlyn]

I have a question about recount- has this been answered already?

Recount ($60,000) -- discover if there were one or more Insurgents on the wagon for the last execution.

Does this mean we learn how many insurgents, or is like a yes or no thing?

Pedit: it amuses me that you would post a link to where I was sacrificed with my blessing and I was town

i would assume its yes or no

Then what's so great about it?

[Merlyn]

I dunno you seem very resigned to dying when I felt like you cared a lot more earlier in this game

earlier in the game we didnt have flavor leaf

ig but if you're gonna say you'll play a game, you should actually play. If you really are town you're not helping here

[Merlyn]

Marci doesn't even have a vote on anyone. Is it really likely that there are 3 other players in a PT with her somewhere and they're not asking her to at least try and get on a wagon?

The fact that game has slowed to a crawl and there's no one angling for a different lim makes me think that scum is content with this lim.
VOTE: Aureal I would be better with this lim than Marci

[Merlyn]

Hu Tao, why are you scum reading Marci?

[Merlyn]

VOTE: Marcistar

I think this is good. She's skated by largely on tone so far, but I feel like she's just been coming in to argue against people's scumreads of her instead of trying to find scum

I don't even know that I would even say she's doing that much.

VOTE: marcistar

This is...true. But is it really alignment indicative? I mean, as scum she should know refusing to post reads draws suspicion to her, it's such a basic thing.

Marci doesn't even have a vote on anyone. Is it really likely that there are 3 other players in a PT with her somewhere and they're not asking her to at least try and get on a wagon?

The fact that game has slowed to a crawl and there's no one angling for a different lim makes me think that scum is content with this lim.
VOTE: Aureal I would be better with this lim than Marci

Hu Tao, why are you scum reading Marci?

You really seem to want to make sure Marci stays alive, you are really protecting her in all sorts of ways.

-

Yeah, if we're scum partners I would be doing a shitty job distancing myself from her. Really dumb of me when you think of it to fight against a late wagon instead bussing and hopping on.

So you disagree with all of the points I raised in the posts you quoted?

[Merlyn]

Perfect, there we go.

I like that it's Devil too, i was going to ask them or RCE to move over when I was thinking we should have it.

Alright, im ready for the day to end. Someone hammer, or just let it go to deadline, idc.

Didn't Enchant just hammer previous page? Am I miscounting?

[Merlyn]

VOTE: recount

There's a decent list of folks I think might be best on the vote count because overall I think we should pick someone viewed as town by the majority and someone more controversial. I'm fine with being one of the voters. I'm thinking if it's me that meow or CSF would be good choices as the other voter.

For the lim itself I'd be good with Aureal or Cakez. Devil is on my ??? list these days but I'm not feeling confident about that.

[Merlyn]

Wait what's the plan for recount tomorrow? How does it get used as a parity check if it only tells us binary y/n if there was a scum on the wagon but not how many?

It's not exactly a parity check.
Basically, no one votes except 2 people on the chosen execution wagon and we let it pass by plurality. If we get a no, they're both confirmed town, and if we get a yes, we know at least one of them is scum.

- Alianna

[Merlyn]

I guess we can agree to disagree on whether it was bad. The literal whole point was that he was being heavily townread AND scumread, and that made him the perfect target for torture. If he was straight out scumread, he would have been a better choice for lim.

Also bold of you to invoke a told-you-so when you've mislimmed twice in the game so far!

[Merlyn]

Snivy, who do you want for the lim today and for the voters?

[Merlyn]

fuck off I am not getting limmed today

bc you've been so town that it's crazy to even think of you? You didn't even show up for the torture council last night

[Merlyn]

Also bold of you to invoke a told-you-so when you've mislimmed twice in the game so far!

You know, I've been told that it's scummy for someone to try to use "you were on both miselims" as a reason to doubt people. Granted, it was said by scum who was trying to push me for being right, but in this case it feels rather applicable. You're literally trying to shade me because I correctly suspected that the flavor of the action taken being a bad thing could lead to bad things for us. My votes have nothing to do with that.

I mean, I guess it's not a bad thing for the scumteam, to have conftown out of action for the day...

"I was told by scum...that something is scummy...when I personally did it as town...but now that YOU'RE doing it it's scummy."

How was torture a bad thing that has led to bad things for us? If FL is out for the day that's just the worst thing that could have happened to town?

[Merlyn]

And why the hell you vote election security.

So scum can't screw up tomorrow's Recount with secret votes.

- Alianna

So there's 4 mafia and they ALSO have secret additional voting power?

You acknowledge that any mafia worth their salt WILL JUST VOTE SELF AT LAST DEADLINE SECOND AND MAKE IT WORTHLESS.

Basically it only works if target is town.

Which kinda silly.

Was this argument? If so, I didn't understand it. If someone self voted at the last second we still catch a scums even if they screwed up recount. Like, it would be just fine if this was the outcome, right?

[Merlyn]

To prevent confusion. Flavor Leaf is

not

unable to post today.

Wonder if 'excused from duties' means his vote doesn't count? If it means anything at all ig

[Merlyn]

And why the hell you vote election security.

So scum can't screw up tomorrow's Recount with secret votes.

- Alianna

So there's 4 mafia and they ALSO have secret additional voting power?

You acknowledge that any mafia worth their salt WILL JUST VOTE SELF AT LAST DEADLINE SECOND AND MAKE IT WORTHLESS.

Basically it only works if target is town.

Which kinda silly.

Was this argument? If so, I didn't understand it. If someone self voted at the last second we still catch a scums even if they screwed up recount. Like, it would be just fine if this was the outcome, right?

We still wasted 50k instead of doing something better.

I am a big mech newbie, as no doubt evidenced by a bunch of things I've already said in this game. But if there was a billboard option of 50K right now that said 'guaranteed scum catch' we'd all pick it and not consider it a waste, right?

[Merlyn]

It's 60K actually, please sub that in for my question

[Merlyn]

Flavor in the first posts of each Day may be game-relevant.

I mean, I do see the 'may'

[Merlyn]

I am not sure why i still care.

Probably i should't.

Do whatever.

I'm not saying I'm right, it just seems like a good idea still to me but I do get I could be missing something

[Merlyn]

I am a big mech newbie, as no doubt evidenced by a bunch of things I've already said in this game. But if there was a billboard option of 50K right now that said 'guaranteed scum catch' we'd all pick it and not consider it a waste, right?

I don't think it is a guaranteed scum catch

It's more like this: if we end up voting out town, then we get to use Recount as a parity cop check. If we end up voting scum, then scum can self hammer and mess up the Recount result so the result isn't useful in this scenario -- we would have spent $60k on something not useful.

But....it is useful, because....we found a wolf through their self voting actions, even if they do mess up recount (that's what I meant by 'guaranteed'). Right?

[Merlyn]

Like, the argument is 'let's not do something that can be messed up by scum OUTING THEMSELVES' but then we'd have an outed scum.

[Merlyn]

I meant that the mafia would self hammer close to end of day as possible, after it has been collectively decided they are today's lim (so they were going to die anyway)

Thinking about it some more, Recount is almost like an insurance policy... we would get more info if we mess up today, and I think that's not a bad thing

I also just looked at the billboard again and there really is not much else better lol

I finally get it, thanks for explaining it to me. Okay, I'm still open to it as an insurance policy, but I'm also open to other projects. Maybe Census and Neighborhood Watch?

[Merlyn]

Sacrifice or Assassination today actually would make sense I think unless we have a good plan for recount
We could also do the one for more investigative projects

We can do sacrifice with recount (it's the only other thing we could do I think bc we'd be out of money)

[Merlyn]

Side note- am I missing where the D3 deadline counter is?

[Merlyn]

Enchant came into the torture room trying to get Devil voted, by the way, and go against the plan.

Everyone else cooperated with the plan besides Cakez who didn’t show up

I also thought we were doing Recount/Sacrifice today.

All true, but Enchant didn't try even one bit to convince others to vote with them- they only posted twice, and one was the vote. What's the scum benefit to sticking out like this? FL said something to the effect in the hood that Enchant could be town but that he didn't think the way they were playing was very town like, and I do kind of get this bc they've been a bit terse, but I think the fact that they pointed out a genuine hiccup in recount that gains scum nothing for pointing out is kind of big.

[Merlyn]

Maybe I don't understand the mechanics of this game but why is no one dying at night?

No, you're not misunderstanding, we don't know why. The prevailing idea is that they need to get enough money to spend to do it (a billboard of their own basically) but we don't know for sure.

[Merlyn]

So I've been thinking about inquiry. I think the fact that it is there means we are being mislead about something and it's worrying. Not sure what it could be

if inquiry were more specific I'd be down to go for it, but even if we get a 'yes, there was a lie', I don't know how it helps us when we have no way to no what the lie was.

[Merlyn]

"I was told by scum...that something is scummy...when I personally did it as town...but now that YOU'RE doing it it's scummy."

I don't think it's an unreasonable point even though it came from scum and obviously plenty of other people in that game thought it reasonable too, because I very nearly got miseliminated there. And I think the way you brought it up out of absolutely nothing as a gotcha was a lot more suspicious than what I had said.

How was torture a bad thing that has led to bad things for us? If FL is out for the day that's just the worst thing that could have happened to town?

?????

You don't think that conftown being restricted in what they can do would be a bad thing?

On that note, Leaf you should vote for someone because lacking a vote might be the effect of the torture.

The fact that it came from someone with an agenda, against a townperson who was doing it, ought to suggest it's not a great strategy of scumcatching, but I won't argue it further. What you said felt very gotcha-y to me, so I felt like gotcha-ing you back.

I think FL has a very powerful voice in this game and that he's also been on both wrong wagons (here I go pointing it out again!), so I think town could have survived even if he got muffled. You were kind of overstating the it all with the 'I just KNEW that TERRRIBLE THINGS would happen'.

[Merlyn]

I think i got poisoned.

I received something saying that ‘i am feeling terribly unwell.”

To be clear, this isn't related to the Torture flavor in 2169 is it?

i dont think so

it looks like a poisoner.

I know you can't quote from it, but can you explain what's making you think that vs the fact that you were tortured? Have you asked the mod about it in case he'll say?

[Merlyn]

Enchant came into the torture room trying to get Devil voted, by the way, and go against the plan.

Everyone else cooperated with the plan besides Cakez who didn’t show up

I also thought we were doing Recount/Sacrifice today.

All true, but Enchant didn't try even one bit to convince others to vote with them- they only posted twice, and one was the vote. What's the scum benefit to sticking out like this? FL said something to the effect in the hood that Enchant could be town but that he didn't think the way they were playing was very town like, and I do kind of get this bc they've been a bit terse, but I think the fact that they pointed out a genuine hiccup in recount that gains scum nothing for pointing out is kind of big.

i didnt like their end of the day yesterday either.

Idc Enchant's alignment for the sacrifice, tbh. if they're town, cool, they give us an extra 20k.

I'm also probably on my deathbed here, so give me that dying wish please.

I...guess? We don't have a lot of extra town deaths to spare, right? I won't fight the Enchant thing if the town is feeling mixed emotions or flat out thinks they're leaning scum. Is that the case? I'm asking others to share their thoughts- I'm not sure where anyone but FL and I stand right now.

[Merlyn]

Enchant came into the torture room trying to get Devil voted, by the way, and go against the plan.

Everyone else cooperated with the plan besides Cakez who didn’t show up

I also thought we were doing Recount/Sacrifice today.

All true, but Enchant didn't try even one bit to convince others to vote with them- they only posted twice, and one was the vote. What's the scum benefit to sticking out like this? FL said something to the effect in the hood that Enchant could be town but that he didn't think the way they were playing was very town like, and I do kind of get this bc they've been a bit terse, but I think the fact that they pointed out a genuine hiccup in recount that gains scum nothing for pointing out is kind of big.

I disagree. ScumEnchant likes to point out flaws in things I come up with, and that gives them satisfaction.

If anything, I think it's scummier of them to do so.

LOL, and also do you have a game you can point me to read?

[Merlyn]

VOTE: aureal

[Merlyn]

I have got confirmation that my not doweling well was not from being tortured.

welp. At least this can put to rest any fears that scum interfered with torture (what, paranoid? Me???) unless you don't drop dead by final day.

[Merlyn]

Yeah, Aureal’s probably scum here.

And the fact they’ve been town spewing me all along is like TMI I was town.

How do you feel about me town spewing you?

And I do agree Aureal may have TMI slipped.

But I also agree Enchant is scummier by the minute, why they have it out for ol devil Drew and Alianna I do not know(besides the obvious).

Also, I am not v/la.....so I guess I gotta do some mech work

-

Stupidly, I saw the VLA notice and somehow thought you would both be gone. Like you were both on vacation together

Who cares about mech for a minute, gimme some of them patented Dr Drew Hot Takes (TM)

[Merlyn]

VOTE: RCEnigma

this seemed like a universal scumread yesterday but due to marci push it never went through

Do you personally scumread them?

[Merlyn]

Enchant came into the torture room trying to get Devil voted, by the way, and go against the plan.

Everyone else cooperated with the plan besides Cakez who didn’t show up

I also thought we were doing Recount/Sacrifice today.

All true, but Enchant didn't try even one bit to convince others to vote with them- they only posted twice, and one was the vote. What's the scum benefit to sticking out like this? FL said something to the effect in the hood that Enchant could be town but that he didn't think the way they were playing was very town like, and I do kind of get this bc they've been a bit terse, but I think the fact that they pointed out a genuine hiccup in recount that gains scum nothing for pointing out is kind of big.

I disagree. ScumEnchant likes to point out flaws in things I come up with, and that gives them satisfaction.

If anything, I think it's scummier of them to do so.

LOL, and also do you have a game you can point me to read?

viewtopic.php?p=13765959#p13765959

I read the first day and then ISO'd Enchant, I do see that you battled about a strategy again, I just don't know if I think it's enough to think that's a scumtell. Surely a lot of folks argue with you sir?

All I really got from it is that they seemed to be having more fun. I did see that Drew, Alianna, and Hu Tao were all in the game- can I get your thoughts on if you think Enchant is playing differently or the same here?

[Merlyn]

I have got confirmation that my not doweling well was not from being tortured.

welp. At least this can put to rest any fears that scum interfered with torture (what, paranoid? Me???) unless you don't drop dead by final day.

I’m conf town. It’s probably good if i didn’t drop dead

But yeah, that's my point- you're conf town. Surely you don't expect to make it to the end anyway?

[Merlyn]

I'm simultaneously getting shaded for my reads being too bad and my reads being too good. That's just lovely. :/

I don't really like how you're framing this... it's like framing it as if the points lobbed against you are somehow contradictory but I don't really think they are

Can't help feeling how I feel. They'd be contradictory points if they were from the same person, but it's still not a fun feeling.

I wish I could just shut off my memory that this site exists for the rest of the day and just go enjoy myself because I'm really not feeling too great right now.

I'm sorry about my part in that, I truly enjoy playing with you Aureal. You are delightful, I just know that as scum you will also be delightful and I have to try and sort you, you know?

[Merlyn]

Aureal, if you’re town, you did nothing wrong and it’s more of scum manipulating the game.

Thanks, I know that but it really helps to have someone else say so rather than trash on someone's play.

I'm sorry for trashing your play. I felt like you were trashing mine btw

[Merlyn]

Enchant knows as scum that’s what they do, and it’s almost like a forced mimic of the play in that game, which is making me town read them, which just doesn’t sit right with me.

I’m kinda scum reading them because I’m town reading them

Cakez, Aureal, RCEnigma maybe, and then a deep wolf

I feel Merlyn would be the deep wolf, Alianna and I don't feel good about the end of day.

Also, this is totally scumEnchant.....don't overthink it.

-

Do you meant the part where I pointed out very reasonable things that made me doubt the Marci wagon? Let's talk about that. It didn't seem to me like you took even a minute to consider what I said. It would be one thing if you took a look at what I had to say and then said why you didn't agree, but I didn't see that happen.

[Merlyn]

Enchant knows as scum that’s what they do, and it’s almost like a forced mimic of the play in that game, which is making me town read them, which just doesn’t sit right with me.

I’m kinda scum reading them because I’m town reading them

Cakez, Aureal, RCEnigma maybe, and then a deep wolf

I feel Merlyn would be the deep wolf, Alianna and I don't feel good about the end of day.

Also, this is totally scumEnchant.....don't overthink it.

-

Do you meant the part where I pointed out very reasonable things that made me doubt the Marci wagon? Let's talk about that. It didn't seem to me like you took even a minute to consider what I said. It would be one thing if you took a look at what I had to say and then said why you didn't agree, but I didn't see that happen.

Well it was an end of day convo Alianna and I had in private, and even after the flip.

Why wait until very late in the wagon to point these things out? Just trying to make yourself look pretty?

-

I am very pretty, thanks for noticing even through an online forum


I didn't wait for anything, I was on the fence about Marci but leaning town for some time in the game (see post 1801 and I could see why a wagon formed. I did a re-read of the day to decide if I should add my vote there and I didn't like what I saw, so I posted about it.

I think as scum it would have looked 'prettier' if I had stayed off the wagon and said nothing at all.

[Merlyn]

Enchant knows as scum that’s what they do, and it’s almost like a forced mimic of the play in that game, which is making me town read them, which just doesn’t sit right with me.

I’m kinda scum reading them because I’m town reading them

Cakez, Aureal, RCEnigma maybe, and then a deep wolf

I feel Merlyn would be the deep wolf, Alianna and I don't feel good about the end of day.

Also, this is totally scumEnchant.....don't overthink it.

-

Do you meant the part where I pointed out very reasonable things that made me doubt the Marci wagon? Let's talk about that. It didn't seem to me like you took even a minute to consider what I said. It would be one thing if you took a look at what I had to say and then said why you didn't agree, but I didn't see that happen.

Well it was an end of day convo Alianna and I had in private, and even after the flip.

Why wait until very late in the wagon to point these things out? Just trying to make yourself look pretty?

-

I am very pretty, thanks for noticing even through an online forum

I didn't wait for anything, I was on the fence about Marci but leaning town for some time in the game (see post 1801 and I could see why a wagon formed. I did a re-read of the day to decide if I should add my vote there and I didn't like what I saw, so I posted about it.

I think as scum it would have looked 'prettier' if I had stayed off the wagon and said nothing at all.

Drew is valid that the timing makes it look worse no matter how your read or progression was intentioned. I had the same thought eod because like. There wasn’t much support to push the wagon away from Marci when I was trying to get FL to consider elsewhere. I think meow voiced a townread on Marci around that time but I don’t remember. Which would have been the time to reconsider your feelings on the Marci slot.

I think this line of thought is a bit silly. Nothing is set in stone until a hammer, all the time up to it should be used to actually try and lim a wolf. I would get it if I had brought it up hours before the deadline when then was no realistic way to change, but that's not the case here.

[Merlyn]

I feel complicit though because I didn’t really do anything to push back towards aureal when the other two options from FL were my townreads.

Aureal had some posting that flustered me and I considered it townie.

I think another recount option is aureal, meow, me, Merlyn and if it flips all town it will prove the theory scum was fine letting FL pilot the elims because his at the moment pushes were on town.

What I don’t want (considering FL claims poison) is for scum to hide in his pockets post mortem and watch us pick each other apart.

I need someone better at mech to tell me if it's a good idea to have three people on the wagon for recount. If we do find scum with recount, are we in a good enough position to sort three vs two?

[Merlyn]

What?

Okay, so THIS was the plan. Right?

Wait what's the plan for recount tomorrow? How does it get used as a parity check if it only tells us binary y/n if there was a scum on the wagon but not how many?

It's not exactly a parity check.
Basically, no one votes except 2 people on the chosen execution wagon and we let it pass by plurality. If we get a no, they're both confirmed town, and if we get a yes, we know at least one of them is scum.

- Alianna

So two people.

[Merlyn]

What?

Okay, so THIS was the plan. Right?

Wait what's the plan for recount tomorrow? How does it get used as a parity check if it only tells us binary y/n if there was a scum on the wagon but not how many?

It's not exactly a parity check.
Basically, no one votes except 2 people on the chosen execution wagon and we let it pass by plurality. If we get a no, they're both confirmed town, and if we get a yes, we know at least one of them is scum.

- Alianna

So two people.

I'm so confused.. so it's the people who are voting on recount? Or are you saying we can eliminate people with only 2 voters

Yeah, the votes go by plurality, so a wagon with only two people is so a lim as long as it's the wagon with most votes

[Merlyn]

I would love for someone to tell me why they're town reading snivy. Like, I want someone to go through his iso and find any evidence of scum hunting, or pushing, or anything at all.

[Merlyn]

DON'T USE SACRIFICE ATLEAST.

i mean that much is fair? at the very least sacrifice is just a substitue for limming tomorrow, and it's probably better to just... discuss instead. i don't think there's anything else we can vote for, so we probably need to unaminously vote recount. here, i'll contribute;

HURT: recount

i'm just like, not sure where you are from a not-mechanics standpoint

Agreed, if we're not going to sacrifice, everyone should be on recount

[Merlyn]

This is something I find weird. FL is talking about why he's voting Marci and what he thinks the scumteam could be and Snivy asks about Enchant

what about Enchant

havent read them either

what about Enchant

havent read them either

im sticking with marci today.

i do think there's some merit in enchant/marci/snivy,

but idk really why, just a gut feeling i had, but im not interested in snivy wagon or even an enchant wagon right now

getting big vibes on this a little right now tbh.

Snivy protecting Marci kinda unnaturally.

then condemn marci and we'll see

FL thinks Snivy is protecting Marci a bit and looking to swivel off the wagon. The idea being, this would be scum!Marci and a scum!Snivy situation.

So what does 'condemn Marci and we'll see' mean?????

If Marci had flipped scum, that would make FL's musings possible. But he's saying, 'flip Marci and we'll see' like SHE'S TOWN. While HE'S VOTING FOR HER.

[Merlyn]

I wasn’t positive Marci was gonna flip scum, i saw town possibilities, but they were just actively not participating and too defensive, I’m probably always gonna fade that.

I think we’re living in a world where at least one of the Cats are scum here tbh

I'm not questioning your part in what I quoted, I'm questioning what snivy meant when he said 'flip marci and we'll see'

[Merlyn]

But you were voting her bc of FL.

It’s Marci or Merlyn for me today, and Merlyn is at least willing to work with people who scum read them, so I admire that aspect enough to want Marci over Merlyn.

I think they’re just hiding behind that energy tbh.

If I’m wrong, I’m tortured anyways.

No point for scumFL to do this.

VOTE: marci

true i guess

And you never changed your vote

[Merlyn]

Apologies for not being around today, needed a bit of a mental health day and couldn't muster the brain power for mafia.

Be back tomorrow evening at the worst.

-Drew

Hope things start looking up soon Doc

[Merlyn]

omg

[Merlyn]

right. Well, let's see if we can beat them:

VOTE: Enchant

[Merlyn]

It’s parity by my count, I don’t think we can.

- Alianna

at least for the lim, a tiebreak is broken by vote seniority