Mini 699: Insane Asylum Mafia: Game Over

[Corvuus]

2 1 shot cops versus 2 godfathers (one is reverse flip) plus DM, and millers? I think it is actually slanted towards scum.

C

[Mirth]

Corv, why would I, as either town or scum, let a player who I think is faking a PR live? There is nothing protown about it.

[Kublai Khan]

I gotta agree with Mirth here. If it had been a different endgame scenario, the fake PR stunt might have landed you in a big spot of trouble.

It was an interesting tactic that I wouldn't have dreamed of trying in a million years.

[forbiddanlight]

2 1 shot cops versus 2 godfathers (one is reverse flip) plus DM, and millers? I think it is actually slanted towards scum.

2 1 shot NK resistance cops that practically confirmed each other, with millers that did that to a lesser extent. It was the underlying mechanics that balanced, if not titled it in towns favor, not the actual roles themselves. Death Miller was kinda screwed though. Sorry tajo.

[Corvuus]

hmmm....

well... i guess all i can say is that I live in my own universe then.

I decided to fake PR for my own reasons and, ironically, I later started in another game (that just finished!) and a power role had tried to fake PR (his was posting in pictures) and.... i quite easily proved that his PR was fake and such but while I thought it was anti-town, I wouldn't lynch him for it since his reasons for doing it could be

a: just for fun (which it was for him since his replacement dropped the PR) and he is just a townie?
b: he is a power role
c: if he is scum, there is no chance at all of him surviving all the way until lylo.

Just observing him is enough to tell so from my point of view, knowing that a PR is 'fake' just tells you something about the person. If you knew I was pro-town and faking, then you know I am either 'screwing around' or power role. If I am anti-town and faking, well, then I am scum.

Either way, killing a fake PR instantly upon knowing is silly (if town) since the player spot will get dealt with satisfactorily before the game ends. The only reason why I went after the fake PR was because I thought it was buddy scummy with someone else. Otherwise, I probably couldn't careless.

(in his case, he ended up getting nightkilled Night 1 for it).

So I assumed you 'knew' or 'guessed' Mirth, but that I was pro-town enough for you that it didn't bother you and why mention it if we are both town? shrug.

Ironically, I would never pursue this strategy as town unless I thought it could succeed and I think it could only succeed if you have a NK resistance role. PRs (fake or real) do draw nightkills. If I was a townie, I might pull it for giggles just to try to get nightkilled so power roles live longer but if I was doc or something, I would NEVER have done this. The odds and chances of it being good for me are quite low and it simply makes no sense if I compare a game without fake PR to a game with fake PR if I am anything but a NK resistant role.

But since I was a 1-shot resistant cop, I figured that the odds of me surviving and being useful were quite high and that, in addition to fitting with the theme, I could play at a 'disadvantage' day 1-2 (rely on luck) and then... my lie is so big and ridiculously annoying that my PR and cop claim is just believable since the alternative (I am a liar, etc. etc.) is just too much for people to accept?

Another reason I had for fakeclaiming (aside from fun, etc.) is that... well... in virtually all of my games everyone says or thinks I am town (initially at least) regardless of my role/alignment. My PR actually altered my style, play, post, so that my day1-2 is quite different from day 3 and... perhaps the game would have been better if I never faked my PR but I'd probably have gotten NKed/targeted and I would have been more vocal about the millers.

I probably was the only one (day1-day2) who said I didn't trust the millers or believe them (and wanted to lynch them) and without my PR, I would have definitely traded Tajo for SlySly, A miller for Electra. (SlySly didn't make sense as scum to me, Electra I've seen in a different game and was town from reaction/response). Even my investigation (LF, then SC) should tell you the kind of person I am.

At any rate, I think I am done. gg.

Corv
P.S. KK: yes, it could have blown up in my face and if we lost, I'd probably be 100% blamed for it since maybe we would have done better if I didn't fake PR? I guess one reason why I told Tajo I was 100% willing to accept responsibility for his death and for the loss of this game (and for the Farside mindgame and every other controversial thing I did) is because I had already lied/dug a hole so I already knew I would have to explain and take responsibility for lying/fake PR so if I needed to lynch Tajo (and be wrong), I was fine with that since it is just more to add to my 'crimes' and I just needed to be 'right' in the end and all things are justified. Maybe it will also explain why I was playing 'leader' and making my decisions (I am a stubborn punk right?) and refusing no lynch, godfather theory, etc. and how I treated Kor. I knew I was faking so it did 'secretly' affect my choices and everything I did (especially since I apparently rewrote my PM in my mind so that I thought I was sane and snuck in to help!).

[Corvuus]

sidenote:

I almost forgot.

Tajo, we argued about what we thought an optimal play for a death miller was.

From my point of view, the best a DM can do is draw a night kill and remove himself from the game. You have to die (one way or another) and if you are pro-town, being NKed is much better than being lynched.

If I had gotten your role... I probably would have faked PR and fake role.

i.e. claim death miller but miller-doc type (fits theme) and then lie and craft it so that i wouldn't be lynched but would be a 'target' for NK.

When I flip 'goon', people either believe me that I was a DM (very likely) or they think that I, for weird reasons as a real goon, faked a PR, faked a power role, and then it would have to fit with no night kills, etc. etc. and I think people would be convinced I was a DM regardless of when I died (lylo or not). I.e. I'm the type of person who is willing to lie, etc. if I can turn a "death miller" no information flip into a 'information' flip and draw a NK.

I will admit that your play was fine and was necessary (at the very least, Mirth always worried about you but since you were DM, she didn't want to NK you?) and you convinced scum that millers were real/believed and they didn't want to remove death miller from the game despite how Tajo-> anti-Mirth. I guess... my only question is... why Crazy-interaction? If I didn't get guilty on Farside, I probably would have gone along with your lynch (and lost). and if we did no lynch and investigated Crazy (and got innocent since he is godfather), then we most likely would have mislynched and lost. I guess.... day 3 left me with an impression that if I had listened to you, town would go the wrong path, and I could not see whether you advocated it on purpose (scum wanting town to lose) or if you were town trying to help. That, plus Crazy, etc. etc. I could not let you live and I guess I would disagree with your Crazy-link/ no lynch play since to me it just felt horribly wrong when you said it and it felt wrong afterwards as well. That, being a DM, and everything else made me biased against you.

C

[Mirth]

Corv, I knew Tajo wasn't lying because of Crazy's role. When he claimed my thoughts were something along the line of "oh crap." When my half-joking call for a counterclaim was answered not once, but twice, I basically figured we were screwed.

As to PR faking, why would a power role *fake* a PR in your analysis of the fake PR dilemma? That only draws more attention to them, which is kind of not what they want?

[Corvuus]

Mirth:
You knew he wasn't lying because of Crazy's role but if he claimed death miller with a doc twist (or something) from the beginning would you still believe it? If you did believe it, would you NK him? If so, then death miller fulfilled his optimum play (dying without wasting town's time or being no information lynch and mislead scum count). People might think he was vigged/sk'ed but not forever.

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i wasn't saying that power roles should fake claim/fake PR. I was saying that I was only willing to do it since I had a NK resistance, otherwise I wouldn't since it does draw attention. but in general, PRs would mainly be nightkilled, not lynched (unless really bad).

For the rest... I guess i am thinking of it backwards. I.e. someone in a game does fake a role/PR and you find out, what do you do?

They are either town or scum right?

How they act, what they claim, and (if they claim and do PR from day 1) can tell you whether they are town or scum. It is kind of like claiming doc in day 1 as scum, town doesn't need to kill you (or real doc cc) since you will get dealt with before the game ends, one way or another.

In my example, I gave 3 possibilities (power role, town having fun, or scum) and while it is MOST likely that it is town having fun since any other reason is just making their game more difficult... it could be a power role or scum doing it for giggles (or mod enforced due theme but lets assume faking).

In Crazy's case, his claim was BS/anti-town so = scum. If he did it 'better', then I probably would have hesitated more and done no lynch instead. If I had crappy role flavor and acted really scummy, then I don't think anyone would have believed my cop claim but, at the very least, I don't think I was anti-town (beyond interpretation of my rhyming/3rd person PR and never believing the millers) and Tajo/Kor/SC believed me and that was all that really mattered (scum had to go along with it by then) and Crazy got the short straw for fakeclaims.

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Personally.... I think scum could have won quite easily if farside (or scum in general being proactive) was willing to lie (claim cop immediately when Kor and I did) and be lynched on day 3 (or better yet get someone else lynched and win).

An investigation on Crazy would turn up innocent. 2 Godfathers hiding out, still at lylo and Tajo would be likely day 4 lynch. scum win. I don't think even Tajo would dream that there would be 2 Godfathers and if Farside was lynched, Crazy 'cleared', then I would still resist Godfather if SG (miller) was still alive as well.

And ... well... one reason why I wanted Crazy dead and adamant about no on no lynch was because I was afraid scum would claim or do something that would cause confusion/distraction and 1 wrong move = lost in lylo. i.e. day 3 progress would all be lost.

So when SG (miller) was killed, I was extremely confused since it appeared to be the worst possible move and limiting scum flexibility and paved the way for our endgame.

And that is what I meant by 'tempo'. After massclaims, scum became completely 'reactive' instead or 'proactive' and then that was it. I can understand 'laying low' and 'not attracting attention' but when Kor and I claimed cop (argument with SC/Tajo, etc.) and then cops were believed enough (at least we wouldn't be lynched day 3) (SG as well if i remember) then it was already becoming too late. Trusting me, meant trusting SC. Trusting Kor, and Tajo was DM and SG was miller enough to be changable with Farside but not the day's lynch. That is when the 3man team hypothesis (Crazy-Farside-Tajo) came out. Once it was said, it was already too late for scum to do anything.

i.e. By the time Farside asked, "Why do we believe the cops again?" and tajo asking "why don't we no lynch", it was pretty much already over.

Ok, i'm done.

Corvuus

[populartajo]

tl/dr
scum lost when they killed corpo
gg

[Corvuus]

i agree. Corporate's nk (i would have gone for his lynch like Crazy's) was pretty bad.

His NK made me think that scum wanted to verify a miller (or check to see if he was lying) and that made me suspect Tajo/SG more (Tajo more than SG). I guess Tajo can still complain since I believed SG (for no real reason?) but didn't him.

If I had been targeted and lost my NK resistance, my claim would have changed significantly and... since i was already lying, I may have claimed nightkill immunity to dissuade scum from trying it again and that could have lead me to be killed by Kor. My day 3 claim, i didn't know if I had been targeted (death each night would say I haven't, plus mirth's doc claim protection) so I still thought it would be better to play it safe and claim "nk resistance".

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On a sidenote.... I want to hear from Kor for his thoughts since he hasn't posted since I admitted that I lied about PR, etc. etc. and i wonder what he thinks about it/me. .

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For KK:

I can understand your frustration and claim of me being in WIFOM hell and not 'reading'/convinced by you, but, *truthfully*, I did read and think about everything posted and said and I did re-read everyone (a few times) with my own particular logic.

My conclusions aren't "hasty" (to me) so when I make them, i have thought about it a great deal and posts don't necessarily convey that or what I am really thinking or including as 'evidence'.

When I said "no to no lynch" when you said it, it was no to it in general and it didn't matter who said it. I felt nothing would be accomplished by it and so it was pointless and so not worth my time. Kor saying it didn't convince me that it wouldn't be pointless (or play out the way it did with nothing gained), it simply convinced me that I wasn't willing to alienate/argue with Kor more in saying "no to no lynch".

i.e. if I said no to no lynch and Kor, we could have ended up with cops arguing against each other *again* over something which I viewed as pointless... and I already trusted/believed Kor, so there would be no point for me to do so. That is what changed my mind, not what Kor said in particular.

As for my flip-flopping decisions on re-reads, I was already tunnelvisioned on KK/Mirth situation and I had already re-read the game several times (and convinced myself that it had to be Tajo due to Crazy) and it was only after accepting that there wasn't a SK-godfather (discussion with Kor) and re-reading Tajo (assuming 100% town and actually trying to help me) that I re-read everyone again with mirth as a real viable suspect.

So... I guess... yes... you probably couldn't have convinced me of anything. I'm not always a sane person to have a conversation with, but your play (and a view of Crazy-Farside-SC/KK overall) had me convinced you weren't scum so your comment on "i don't want to post since it is giving me rope to hang myself" and such was accurate since I had you as town, so you could only go downhill in my eyes if you did something 'bad' but otherwise, you could do whatever you want and it wouldn't majorly change my mind regarding you unless REALLy bad.

What would I consider "bad"? If scum went after the "cops" who should have been verified by that point. You did this with Kor, and Mirth said 'i don't see a case on SC/KK' so it implied she was looking at cops in her re-read and just waiting to see what happened and this was confusion for me.

I didn't know what to do about this (since I know I am town and I believed Kor for my own reasons) and that is when I voted Mirth to L-1 to prove that he wasn't scum for you and Mirth (beyond what I could possibly argue to convince you. so thanks for voting Mirth!). I figured this would help the remaining townie since it tells him that there are 2 cops and by PoE, the other is scum. You did this, so I had less doubt about you, more and more concern with Mirth and she went after my claim (legitimately? I did lie so it did make me hesitate but not enough). Once you knew it was Mirth, you made your mirror comments, Mirth-doc doesn't fit, etc. etc. and I felt I was on the right track (but real life prevented me from posting, otherwise I could have tried to convince Kor so we didn't have to rely on Haiku).

So... I'm not a very convincing person or 'that' easy to convince but I play based on what I 'want/need' and I will refuse/reject everything that isn't what I need but accept anything I need to.

If I need someone to die, I will expect them to die. (tajo example). If I expect no lynch, or refuse no lynch, then it is because I've already played out variations of it in my head and decided what I want and what I think are the possible outcomes and the "best" outcome. People can say things (and they do!) but unless I see a new variation that I haven't considered then talking to me is talking to a deaf person. I saw a new variation due to Tajo. Otherwise, nothing would convince me about Mirth-GF.

I can and did see Kor's point on you KK but I had already accepted Mirth as most likely scum due to Tajo's points (overall game), etc. so Kor would never have been able to convince me unless he proved that you made sense as scum overall, etc. etc. and not just lylo-endgame play and Kor's points (how you fit as scum more than Mirth did for endgame are potentially valid) but meaningless to me. The moment I believed Tajo and said "mirth, i expect you to die", it would take a trainwreck to derail me. I voted Mirth to L-1 to convince you that you were right and since I didnt have time, i hoped Kor would read Tajo and Farside-Mirth interaction.

Sorry if it drove you crazy. I can be convinced and I am 'loyal' (as evidenced by believing Mirth for so long) but in the end, it is more 'luck' in saying the right thing to me. Tajo saying Mirth was Godfather and claimed doc would never convince me and, despite him repeating it from day 3 on, never would have. Tajo saying Mirth-Farside connection and posting it all did. Weird what I accept right?

Corvuus

[MeMe]

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