Twin Trap (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Mina

She may float like a butterfly, but she'll sting like a bee.

[Alchemist21]

I know nothing about how any of you play either. I think this will be a good learning experience for me.

[Alchemist21]

I see RVS as an ice-breaker stage for the game where people can kinda warm up and prepare to get into the game.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: ETL

Being too knee-jerky

What do you see that's knee-jerky in his posts?

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: ETL

Being too knee-jerky

What do you see that's knee-jerky in his posts?

A couple of questions/statements that seem a bit ill-thought-out.

Which ones?

[Alchemist21]

I could see it for the first bit of 23, but definitely not the others you cited.

[Alchemist21]

I could see it for the first bit of 23, but definitely not the others you cited.

Definitely not? How are you so sure? After all, Mara offers a good explanation in #30 as to why #28 doesn't really make much sense. Do you disagree?

30 is a good rebuttal of 28. I like the post, but I have also seen hesitations about RVS come from scum. Maybe not for the reason ETL said, but I've seen it.

Even of the idea has a good argument against it, but I still don't see how it was a knee-jerk reaction to anything.

[Alchemist21]

Do you think her being kneejerky is indicative of etlscum?

If so, why

I think it can be indicative of scum rushing out posts. Knee jerk wasn't the best word to use, I meant something more like responding to posts quickly and perhaps without a lot of thought.

Like maybe not putting a lot of thought into the proper word to use?

[Alchemist21]

Holy shit what a player list

Thank fuck I'm town

Not gonna bother voting on phone

I'm already having fun. Join us!

ETL: Actually I think Alchemist was being a bit backhanded there to me. My response is that I did put a lot of thought into the right word to use but on balance realise I should have used multiple words instead.

I just couldn't resist the temptation tl be a smartass there. Lol

[Alchemist21]

While I fully agree on disliking BB's post, I don't think it's alignment indicative.

Do you think anything is alignment-indicative so far, BPC?

Not overly alignment indicative, no! There are a couple things that ping out like ETL's posting, but that's

something most seem to be picking up on.

Mara's posting doesn't feel like mara to me. I've only played with her a very little bit, but like it feels either heavily influenced by her team or mara really stepping up her game. My first indication is to townread her posts, but I don't wanna jump to that considering possible influences!

Quilford is cuting it up, but that seems like general Quilford to me, pulling a townread early on from that seems dangerous! Looking beyond that, he's had some good posting, but nothing jumping out at me too hard.

Where are you getting "most" from? I've seen you and Quilford say it, but that's it.

[Alchemist21]

Teehee! I like Mina's posts.

Weren't you off to beddy-bye?

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist why are you asking so many questions? Do you have any opinions? I wanna hear them

I like engaging you. It's fun. I don't really have any opinions yet; so far this feels like it will be a more emotion-based game and I'm not an emotion-based player.

[Alchemist21]

Where are you getting "most" from? I've seen you and Quilford say it, but that's it.

Hi, don't forget that I am actually engaging with her with mostly her posting

I didn't get the sense that you were saying what they were saying about her though.

[Alchemist21]

5 pages and my name not even mentioned! I feel left out.

Hi Mina, bbmolla, ETL, Ms Marangal. Don't think I know the others.

Vote: Alchemist21

. Definitely seems like scum.

Hello, is this the Krusty Krab?

[Alchemist21]

I asked people in MD how to get more engaged in games, and they all told me to just talk. That's how I used to operate too but I stopped because stuff like this kept happening.

[Alchemist21]

None. We put a slight amount into Town for me.

[Alchemist21]

Because I'm slightly stronger as Town.

[Alchemist21]

@Patrick, what is the main difference you see between BPC and myself?

[Alchemist21]

My favorite alignment is scum, because then you have permission to screw with people. I think I'd like being a Serial Killer better, but so far I haven't had the pleasure (closest I've been was solo'ing a game as the last scum offsite, and I had an unusual game mechanic provide a huge help).

Honesty would have served you better.

Quilford: Because it feels like this player list is really easily PoE-able. You, ETL, and probably serra are town. Now I think Patrick looks town (although he's the one person who I think could really fuck us over if he's scum). Mara looks kind of genuine, except she's sort of in the same general fuzzy bunny scumbag as, e.g., Malakittens in Wicked who posts a lot of nice posts about safer topics, so sure, she can be in my extended lynch pool. But that leaves Alchemist, BPC, and BBmolla. BBmolla is really readable, so we'll know one way or another soon.

And that's without any super-powered innocent children claiming. And without roles that ensure if scum is lynched D1, the game is broken.

I prefer BPC's later posts to his earlier ones, and admittedly, he's someone I can see being middle-of-the-road and overly nice as either alignment. But his earlier posts come across as pretty much the textbook safe, agreeable, "I'm going to say both good and bad things about everyone to keep myself open to lynch them" scumbag. His stances feel middle-of-the-road in a calculated (not sure if that's the best word choice) rather than an indecisive way. Regfan and Empire are annoying and think BPC is town, though. Boo.

I was honest. I prefer being scum because it's usually more enjoyable, but I'm a stronger player as Town, and from a tactical standpoint making me Town is the better move.

I also don't get how people are scumreading me while Townreading BPC. We're doing the same things, just BPC has more words.

[Alchemist21]

@Mina, He's null to me. There are people who take a little while longer to get reads in a game, and he hasn't done anything I would consider alignment indicative.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Alchemist21

No reads. Not scumhunting.

What are your reads then? I honestly don't see that much coming from your slot either.

[Alchemist21]

You criticize me but not BBMolla? I'm starting to think you're just sheeping Mina.

VOTE: Quilford

[Alchemist21]

He is actually one of my top scum reads though

This is news to me. When did you start scumreading him? Your early posts never implied it.

[Alchemist21]

*earlier

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist, what do you make of the distinction I drew between you and BBmolla?

It was a fair answer. I can see someone not holding them to the same expectations if there's reason to believe they haven't read the thread.

I still think you were sheeping Mina when you voted me though.

[Alchemist21]

It ended up being more a case of "why not"

ETL hit town rediculously early and serras response to me was highly favorable and it's difficult seeing that actually coming from a town perspective.

I thought your team thinking I picked scum tokens were weird, though empires analysis of my play and behavior was somewhat accurate and I feel like it was a solid move from you guys and, from what I understand of his play, it's very unlikely that he is scum thus, it is very unlikely that you are scum.

Patrick, I think looked townie enough but could be scum if my top three is completely off, and it seems like it might be.

I don't know anything of quils meta so all I have to go off of is what's going on in thread. His pushes were kinda awkward and still kinda is and though his posts seen reasonable enough, I kinda feel like they lack originality and the one push that was kind of original can also kinda explain how he's played so far (read, etl being knew jerky)

In that first paragraph, are you saying you're Townreading ETL and scumreading Serra?

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist, what do you make of the distinction I drew between you and BBmolla?

It was a fair answer. I can see someone not holding them to the same expectations if there's reason to believe they haven't read the thread.

I still think you were sheeping Mina when you voted me though.

I think you can see my read on you reverse across the course of #89, #134, #135 and finally #148 if that helps.

You never really said anything about scumreading me until Mina did.

[Alchemist21]

In that first paragraph, are you saying you're Townreading ETL and scumreading Serra?

No, he's town.

Then what was difficult to see as coming from a Town perspective?

[Alchemist21]

And he should tell at me if I start scum reading him down the road

Pedit: yeah? I didn't explicity mention any of my reads, I did hint towards possible scum read on you earlier after pats first post

Ppedit:should have read difficult from seeing it from scum perspective

You did show more thought process as your read developed, and you aren't claiming to have scumread me before it was brought up. I think Quilford may have just wanted to see more sentiment against me before trying to push me. Some of Quilford's have been pretty directed at Mina in a buddying kind of way too.

[Alchemist21]

If I'm right about alch scum serra is partner

game solved

How did you come to that conclusion?

jesus fuck you guys are gonna think I copied you

I saw the same shit Patrick did

Copying is exactly what I think you did. Give us some original thought if you can.

Pretty confident I'm not changing my vote ever

Sounds like scum setting up to vote park.

If anyone has Alch meta it couldn't hurt though

Everyone else on Mara's team could have that. Mastin and Notscience have both modded me and played with me (but I'm not sure how much Mastin wuld remember of my play). Pieguy has been scum and Town with me.

[Alchemist21]

Because Quilford sounded similar, and I was giving you a chance to respond.

P-edit: Holy shit, are you serious? THAT'S part of your read on me?

[Alchemist21]

Btw, Shos is on your team, he may have some meta on me too. It might be interesting to see how that will compare to Mara's teammates' meta-based opinions.

[Alchemist21]

Another meta update - ETL has TTH and antihero. TTH probably remembers me, not sure about antihero.

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist, why do we care about all the people who have meta with you again?

Molla asked if anyone had meta on me.

Btw, BBT said he feels the same way about Quilford, and thinks if Quilford is scum then you're Town. He wasn't a fan of Molla's first post and said he would vote Quilford or Molla in this game. I don't think he saw Molla's latest bit. He also said ETL and Mara looked Town.

[Alchemist21]

^Says the guy who was the first of 2 to sheep onto my wagon. This is the fourth time you've said you had a reads list and refused to post it. You haven't done any scumhunting, and for you to vote someone else for that is just hypocritical bullshit.

[Alchemist21]

I don't need your reads list to see you're not scumhunting. You attacked me for not clearly showing my thought process when you haven't shown us anything on your end. You saw people start to scumread me and decided to hop on that wagon. You've been opportunistic, and you expect us to have some blind faith that you're Town?

[Alchemist21]

Because Quilford sounded similar, and I was giving you a chance to respond.

P-edit: Holy shit, are you serious? THAT'S part of your read on me?

I like how you're interaction with me assumes my reads are real and not fabricated so you are assuming in town

Tell me more about how you think I'm scum

Where did I ever assume any of that? You came in and made a weak push on me. The ONLY reason I would have to think you're Town is what you said about my RVS comment. It's so bad I actually wondered if it was you pulling a slayer's gambit; I've seen it floating around in some of the other games.

[Alchemist21]

Ask regfan what he thinks of serra

He doesn't have much of one. Should I just summarize the entire Skype message he left me?

UNVOTE: BBmolla

Don't want to vote Alchemist with this big a wagon in a nine-player game, and am waiting for a persuasive explanation from my teammates for why BPC is town.

Where do you stand on Quilford?

[Alchemist21]

(Quip it's possible Alche is just not very good, so calling him scum because he's not doing what good town do is kind of a meh argument.)

(No offense Alche. Or take offense, either way)

Do you think Quilford has been doing what good town do?

[Alchemist21]

Molla: I don't know you or your meta that well, but from what I do remember, you're a pretty strong player as town and I hope to be seeing that here.

I'm home I'll try not to disappoint.

I also know nothing about any of you! Except Bbmolla! Hi bb

hi

Alch is scum

VOTE: Alch

5 pages and my name not even mentioned! I feel left out.

Hi Mina, bbmolla, ETL, Ms Marangal. Don't think I know the others.

Vote: Alchemist21

. Definitely seems like scum.

^town

If I'm right about alch scum serra is partner

game solved

jesus fuck you guys are gonna think I copied you

I saw the same shit Patrick did

Pretty confident I'm not changing my vote ever

And you're scum in that original vote for your shitty rvs comment

@Mina, Show me where he has any reason for voting me other than my RVS vote and his sheeping. How does he actually get a scumread out of what I said in RVS anyway? I thought about the possibility of a slayer's gambit because it seems to be a trend in Team Mafia.

And btw, I did not ask you to join the Quilford wagon, I asked what your stance was on him.

[Alchemist21]

My non-troll answer is that Quilford says some pretty town things on this page, and I don't have more than mild paranoia, 50% of which was influenced by my evil teammates.

@Mina, He's null to me. There are people who take a little while longer to get reads in a game, and he hasn't done anything I would consider alignment indicative.

And why are Quilford and BBmolla (who've had more stances than BPC--Quilford made a case on page two) scummy for "not scumhunting"?

(I read your post as "Why are you townreading my buddy and not me?" and liked that you were implicitly calling yourself scummy, but that was probably influenced by where my reads were at the time.)

It ended up being more a case of "why not"

ETL hit town rediculously early and serras response to me was highly favorable and it's difficult seeing that actually coming from a town perspective.

Can you explain your serrapaladin town read? (I'm not parsing where it comes from.)

That's not what I was saying at all; I just didn't like the contradictory nature of the reads. It's not that I'm pushing them for not scumhunting, it's that Quilford pushed me for not scumhunting while he's just as guilty of it. Molla seems to think Quilford is scumhunting, but I don't get that impression. Molla came in and sheeped my wagon, adding the worst posible reason as his only original opinion, at a time when our wagons were tied. It wouldn't surprise me at all if scumMolla came, saw the wagons, and decided to jump onto my wagon as a CW.

[Alchemist21]

Flesh out that Quilford Townread for me. What do you see so Towny in his posts? I see him discrediting my push on him and Molla and dismissing it as "neither of us can prove our point to the other".

[Alchemist21]

@Mina, Show me where he has any reason for voting me other than my RVS vote and his sheeping. How does he actually get a scumread out of what I said in RVS anyway? I thought about the possibility of a slayer's gambit because it seems to be a trend in Team Mafia.

Do you believe it's impossible to get a scum read on someone in RVS?

His later posts were the really town ones, but your case is basically that he's succinct. Aside from this being typical for BBmolla, succinct players aren't such rare creatures that anyone with a bit of experience onsite should be scumreading them JUST for being succinct. So if you're not scum, you're scumhunting very superficially--and inconsistently. (Basically, I agree with 201.) Do you have any scumreads who don't suspect you?

Anyway, I'd like to hear more from people who aren't in a back-and-forth with the Alchemist A couple more obvtown players would be nice before we move forward.

p-edit: I'll explain the read in more detail when I get home, Alchemist. A lot of it is gut, since I guess there are posts that someone could point to and go, "Aha, you're doing THIS superficially scummy thing."

If someone gets a scumread during RVS, it would have to be for a perceived scumslip. Apparantly he took my joke to be scummy, which is just stupid, and if that's really the reason he wants to come up with, it's a crap push.

My problem with them isn't that they're succinct; I know some players are like that. If that's what you took from my posts then you didn't read carefully enough.

I don't have scumreads outside those 2, and don't see why I should. 2 scumspects in a 2-scum game is ideal. Is it possible they're not both scum? Yes, but unless I see something scummy from another slot, or something happens to reverse my read on one of them, these are the 2 I feel are scum.

[Alchemist21]

I don't plan on actually being able to read bpc so get back to us on that one

And

Have you played with BPC before? Is this typical for him?

FWIW, Titus told me it's been a while since she played with him but said he tends to hang back.

[Alchemist21]

@Patrick, what is the main difference you see between BPC and myself?

I don't think the two of you have been similar in your play so far. Early on he seems to be trying to get involved, points out a few things that stand out to him, asks some questions, etc. I don't think his indecision is much of a tell either way this early, and he immediately strikes me as a player who probably posts like that in all his games. I think someone else mentioned that as well. You've made a fair number of posts yourself, but alot of the early ones seem like you're trying to appear curious rather than gathering useful info or trolling for reactions. All of 24, 45 and 55 feel awkward to an extent, and that's without being picky. I can easily imagine you as scum nervously approaching the thread and making those posts.

Currently like my vote on Alchemist but in no rush for a L-1. The wagon is interesting; Mina and Quilford to an extent both look like they got on after it became popular without expressing strong suspicion before. Quilford feels townish in tone and a bunch of people seem to think he's clearly town based on meta, which I'm inclined to respect. Mina I don't feel that comfortable about; easy to imagine her as scum either bussing alchemist or just attacking the easy target. My team all seem to have concerns about her, though CES might just be doing it because he wants me to troll her.

BPC looking more town. Hit on alot of my trains of thought just there. Serra no clue, can easily see as either alignment. Mara and ETL look decent to me early on, just on gut. I can tell I'm going to have to be not lazy and actually read some people's other games over the Easter break, because I feel like I know very little about all of your forum games.

That's a fair contrast I suppose. I like how you're at least giving the reasons for your read and fleshing them out without acting like it's some super secret. I can understand your POV here, but that's not unusual for me; I used t get attacked for this kind of thing in my early Town games.

Where do you get the sense Mina is scummier than Quilford? Tbh I get the sense Quilford is latching onto Mina here, and my team and I are in agreement that scumQuilford probably means TownMina. Also, have you looked at Molla's posts?

[Alchemist21]

I see RVS as an ice-breaker stage for the game where people can kinda warm up and prepare to get into the game.

This was your scum post alch

It's so fucking "I'm going to post shit for the sake of posting shit"

That's still a terrible reason for voting me. How is that scummy in the least?

[Alchemist21]

Alche do you think I'm bad at this game?

TBH, yes.

A game filled with veterans and content and that's the post you muster? Telling us your mafia theory about rvs?

Are you serious?

It was page 2, or did you forget to check the post number?

[Alchemist21]

What makes me bad scum over bad town?

You came in when the wagons are tied, vote me for what Patrick said, and don't say anything about the rest of the game.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=60558

Before the inevitable "you can't read someone off so little" here's me catching scum page 1 so don't bother with that argument thanks.

You may be able to get serious reads based on the early game, but most people can't. Why don't you explain your Serra read?

I will say that your posts in that game are similar to this game, so I may be wrong about you.

[Alchemist21]

Overall, I like BPC's posts so far. He seems to be considering everything and trying to understand the players and the game thoroughly to form an opinion. I'd say he and Patrick are my top 2 Town reads.

[Alchemist21]

Examining pushes and opinions to see if you can understand the motivation and reasoning behind it, and pushing the players you think are scummy.

[Alchemist21]

From what I've seen, yes.

How would you define scumhunting?

[Alchemist21]

RE BPC and Mina:

I get Town for both of these players. When BPC voted Mina, BBT told me he got Town vibes from him for not putting me at L-1. BPC's posts was set up so he could switch to me any time he wanted, but since then he's gone down the Mina path of interaction, so I'm pretty sure he's Town that's trying to get a good handle on the game.

I feel similarly about Mina. She didn't move to put me at L-1 just yet which she could have easily done by now. Her stream of conscious post was weird in that she picked at some pretty small and insignificant posts as what she liked/disliked, but the overall thought process she showed seems Town to me. BBT got scumvibes from her latest posts, but he's in agreement with me that a Quilford/Mina team doesn't make sense.

RE BBMolla: I feel better about him now, but he's still my second best bet for scum. That may change depending on what I see when ETL and Serra start posting more. BBT feels he's Town based on his later posts. Titus is still convinced he's scum doing a scum tunnel on me. She told me to look at Sabotage, and I'll take a look there when I can find it or she gives me the link.

RE Quiilford: We're all in agreement that he's the most likely candidate for scum.

[Alchemist21]

Quilford seems like he's starting to crack. Most of the people actually scumreading him are people not in the game. He seems bothered by Regfan's read in him even though Mina said she disagrees and thinks he's Town. I still get the sense he's trying to buddy up to Mina, and he just flat-out stated that part of why he can't let go of me is because of how I'm reading him.

[Alchemist21]

But like Patrick pointed out, most people agree with you, so what exactly is your problem?

[Alchemist21]

Why? Don't you want to hear more from ETL, Mara, and Serra? Are you in such a hurry to end the Day?

[Alchemist21]

Why Patrick? Last you mentioned him you said he could be scum if your top 3 scumspects were wrong, but you had an overall Town impression of him.

[Alchemist21]

You weren't particularly sure of your read on me before. What solidified a Townread on me? Did you speak with your team about me?

[Alchemist21]

Also,

vla for Easter

may be around tomorrow or Friday but don't count on it. Will for sure will be back on Tuesday though

Also, I think this was missed?

This effectively means I won't be around this weekend, and might not be around tomorrow or Monday

Pedit: kinda

You also talked. Alot.

If I had to take a guess now, it would be alchemist/Serra. Everyone else has had at least something that seems town, some stronger than others.

Have you not read alchs most recent posts?

Can you point to anything specifically? Your read seems heavily based on my high post volume right now. Also, has Patrick done anything you would classify as scummy, or is your vote 100% a case of him being less Towny than others?

[Alchemist21]

"why are your reads so jerky?"

"you're scum because you're being hypocritical, and applying reasons for scum me that also apply to you"

"when did you solidify your read on me"

Ect... I'll match these up later to actual posts, though it shouldn't be to hard to see what is what.

Also, when I said he talked, I was stating that he has given me alot more to work off of compared to before when I had a maybe town, possibly scum read off him. Posting more does not make him town, but it's more he's posted

Quilford said that first one though. I just questioned it.

[Alchemist21]

Titus said she feels like Quilford is the watch-immune goon and the scumteam wants him protected at all costs. It's part of why she's hard scumreading Molla because she thought his push on me was as a defense of Quilford.

BBT feels Molla is town based on his latest posts and because he thinks there would be 1 scum on and 1 scum off my wagon, and I'm about 50/50 on Molla myself. I'm a lot less confident in my BBMolla read than I was before.

[Alchemist21]

Also, Mara, you said you kinda talked with your team about me. Paraphrase what they said.

I also want to know if you talked with them about anyone else in the game and what they said there.

[Alchemist21]

Molla who are your top Town reads?

[Alchemist21]

Quil, Mina, Patrick

Ok, I think I can see that given your posts so far.

[Alchemist21]

Mina any particular reason you're not interacting with me

Because you look like your town self, so you're not interesting to me. Sorry! <3

What would you say the main difference between scumMolla and TownMolla is? I saw something in the Sabotage game that made me think he's more Towny here, but I don't want to base it on just that game several months ago.

[Alchemist21]

Quil, Mina, Patrick

Ok, I think I can see that given your posts so far.

@BBMolla, follow up to this, have you tried to read BPC since you found out he wasn't DV?

[Alchemist21]

Mara, why, in your own words? (p-edit: lol)

If Quilford were scum, then 1) he would barely be posting, and 2) what he would post would be a lot less carefree and relaxed. My team has seen him as scum. He's town unless he took a level in Machiavelli over the summer. (But frankly, he just reads as pretty genuine anyway.)

I'm worried that you think Quil with Reck and UT on his team would be readable by activity alone. I presume that you're right, but I think you're being too simplistic and disregarding context.

serras response to me was highly favorable

Could you walk me through your train of thought here? What would you have expected from me as scum?

BPC looks better with his walls, although Egg warns that as scum he is often townread just for his style. I like that he pressures people on unanswered questions.

We're pretty much unanimous on alchemist-scum. All of his defence looks too safe and he lacks a proper emotional response to being unfairly attacked. It also feels like he's jumping from attacker to attacker to start a wagon on one of them.

I really like one of the things BPC was hinting at, which is that Mina is getting opinions from her team-mates, but failing to integrate them with her own.

Oh, serrapaladin, Regfan wants to know why you didn't vote in your first post despite having several scumreads.

I hadn't made up my mind over which vote I preferred.

@mara: explain your alch read?

I'm not sure she's right, but I do like mara going entirely against the grain.

VOTE: Alchemist (L-1)

A few things here. It doesn't look like you disagree with Mina's Quilford read, and when you say, "I presume you're right," it sounds like you're sheeping the same read you just said seems too simplistic. If you have your own reasos for Townreading Quilford, I want to hear them.

I don't know what you consider a proper emotional response, but I already said I'm not an emotion-based player. I find getting emotional clouds my judgement and gets in the way of my play. Also, I'm not jumping from attacker to attacker trying to start a wagon on them. If that were my goal, I would have tried a wagon on Patrick and Mina, and 100% would have joined the Molla wagon that already existed when I started scumreading him.

Lastly, are you Townreading Mara right now just because she's going against the grain? That's not really a Towntell and scum can easily do that as well. Yesterday, it felt like pulling teeth trying to get some explanations out of her. I understand she's on V/LA, but if she was here long enough to respond to those questions she could have explained stuff the first time. Something else pinged me on her: She said she wasn't going to vote until she talked with her teammates, yet when she just plopped in with her naked vote and I asked her about it, she said she just kinda talked to them. "Kinda?" For someone who said she wanted input from her teammates before voting, I was expecting more than "kinda." There's a part of me that's paranoid that she's defending the main wagon that seems certain to be lynched as a way of getting Towncred.

[Alchemist21]

Not sure who you want to corroborate that other than myself. You can check my wiki page and see my game record if you want.

[Alchemist21]

@Serra, why wouldn't scumQuilford make up such a story? Mina did say she saw him as scum before and he came up with a terrible reads list. I can easily see Quilford not wanting to post a reads list here because he's worried it will make him obvscum to more than just the person he's pushing.

P.S. Doesn't anyone find it odd that Quilford doesn't seem to be scumreading anyone else, and isn't even talking about them? Mina told him to focus on other players, and he said he would, but he hasn't done that. Since he started pushing me, he hasn't tried to interact with anyone else aside from a half-hearted interaction with Mina.

@ETL, I was not playing Devil's Advocate. Quilford made a statement about your posts and I asked why he thought that. I didn't agree. What exactly is so bad about asking another player to explain their opinion, and then deciding whether you agree/disagree? BPC said he saw what Quilford saw, but even if they're right about you rushing out posts, I don't think that would be more likely to come from scum since scum would tend to be more cautious with their posts and think them over.

[Alchemist21]

Mina can you answer my meta question about BBMolla please?

[Alchemist21]

@Quilford, Except you are obviously aware of your own meta, and have argued it multiple times. It's dead null. BBMolla may or may not be aware of his, and if Mina agrees with what I saw then it's a tip in the Town direction.

[Alchemist21]

Not sure who you want to corroborate that other than myself. You can check my wiki page and see my game record if you want.

I mean, it'd be much easier if someone who's played with you several times could just go, "Yeah, I've seen him play, and he sucks as scum despite liking it more. He'd

totally

pick town here." I'd much rather not read all your games. Because otherwise, there's a good chance you lied about your token use here.

On that note, ETL, did your teammates mention anything about Alchemist21's meta?

Mina can you answer my meta question about BBMolla please?

Sorry, I got distracted. I think BBmolla tends to be really unconcerned with appearances, loose in his postin, and kind of flippant when he's town. He's aware of this to a certain degree as scum (why he only posts walls in games with alts or where no one knows him), which is why I didn't unvote until he looked like he had conviction in what he was saying. To be honest, I'm probably not overthinking this read all that much, because my entire team is in agreement he's obvtown. (There's a secret tell someone on our team has on him, but it hasn't been triggered yet.)

Ok, that's about what I saw in Sabotage (his tone was a lot more polite there; here he doesn't seem to care about pissing people off). If he's aware of it the point's kinda null.

Also, I didn't expect you to do a full meta dive, just look at the table on my page and my overall record.

Your first three posts are literally nothing

Like good luck deflecting onto me, not my fault you fucking obv scummed in the first two pages.

I pointed out a number of other posts in my 229 of Alchemist deflecting. Just scroll down to the spoiler

I think it is generally something beneficial for scum to do, especially if they are deflecting onto town. They're thought process is probably "If I say hey you've been doing this to a town person, then they'll have to reflect and think oh well that might be more of a town action than scum". Like this thought process is obviously flawed when some things are either null, not really matching up, etc. I am interested in analyzing Alchy's deflection posts for this reason (I'm not doing now because I'm lazy and behind).

1) serrapaladin is now in my pool by PoE, since I have reasons to like most of the player list. He

could

be scum, basically.
3) Yep, I had an instinctive gut town read on him based on one post that I liked felt like trying. Why do you find that so out of the ordinary?
5) The game started yesterday, and so far, our conflicting schedules, time zones, and sleep patterns mean we've rarely been online at the same time--and when we have, they'll go, "hang on, I want to focus on this game first." As a result, our conversations about Twin Trap haven't really become a dialogue yet. (E.g., Regfan's reads were messages on Skype I saw after he'd gone to bed). Actually, I like that you made the observation about lack of discussion, since it's true so far, but it'll probably change soon

if Empire ever gets back to me about why he town reads you instead of putting it off to watch

The Walking Dead

HEY EMPIRE THIS IS A TEST ARE YOU READING THIS GAME YOU LAZY FUCKER?

6) I don't know, I get why an outsider might dislike it, but I much prefer being transparent and sharing this kind of inter-team stuff, particularly since, e.g., I don't feel comfortable pushing a you-wagon when half my team is against it. (I mostly mentioned the Regfan reads as pressure on Quilford, though.) And frankly, I suspect that people value their opinions more than mine, so I feel compelled to share them.

However, that was at least an improvement, so I'd thank you if you weren't messing with my biases and making the game harder.

1) + 3) I've never been a big fan of this logic. Like I can understand breaking it down to a few people by liking others, but I feel like that causes some to be ignored when looking at the game. Anyways, I'm still really disliking your early townread on Serra and feel like there was no basis for it, despite reasons you gave. An instinctive gut town read just feels like a cop out from properly trying to read into someone.
5) I can understand full discussion not happening yet, especially with so many games on the go, but that shouldn't stop you from laying down a question in your confessional. It was a over a full day later when you made this post after you said "Regfan and Empire are annoying and think BPC is town, though. Boo." Have you tried further discussion with them on that?
6) Opinions generally have an explanation, so my last question stands!

I actually don't know if I've played with BPC

I think I literally just assumed BPC was DV

:I

Is there a reason nobody wants to talk about/to me?

When I read posts, I'm looking for someone's reasonings behind things. You don't have this. I shouulddd be pressuring you for the reasonings, but I've been focused elsewhere!

RE BPC and Mina:

I get Town for both of these players. When BPC voted Mina, BBT told me he got Town vibes from him for not putting me at L-1. BPC's posts was set up so he could switch to me any time he wanted, but since then he's gone down the Mina path of interaction, so I'm pretty sure he's Town that's trying to get a good handle on the game.

I feel similarly about Mina. She didn't move to put me at L-1 just yet which she could have easily done by now. Her stream of conscious post was weird in that she picked at some pretty small and insignificant posts as what she liked/disliked, but the overall thought process she showed seems Town to me. BBT got scumvibes from her latest posts, but he's in agreement with me that a Quilford/Mina team doesn't make sense.

A couple things! Is not putting someone at L-1 a town thing to do? What if scum just don't want to drag attention to themselves?

I think ruling out pairings or ceasing looking into a player because they don't make sense with your current biggest scumread makes just doesn't make too much sense. I mean it's good to theorize pairings, but don't just write people off...

Titus said she feels like Quilford is the watch-immune goon and the scumteam wants him protected at all costs. It's part of why she's hard scumreading Molla because she thought his push on me was as a defense of Quilford.

I don't understand where this is coming from. Can you get clarification from her on why she thinks this?

I can't read wallposters

Cause I don't read wallposts

I'm not even gonna blame you. Wallpost reading sucks. (he says in a wall)

We're pretty sure if Quilford is scum he's latching onto Mina here. I figured the people not putting me at L-1 when they easily could have were indicative of Town not wanting to rush the Day's end.

Also, Titus is heavily into setup spec and thought Molla's push on me, coming at around the same time I started pushing Quilford, was scumMolla defending scumQuilford. She thinks the watch-immune goon would be protected by the scumteam at all costs, and she thought Molla wanted all pressure off of Quilford. I think she still thinks this, but BBT and I are both disagreeing with her there.

[Alchemist21]

You dont have to quote my whole monstrosity

I think in this level of game, scum are not gonna try to rush day, or at least in any obvious way like putting someone at L-1. At the very least, I wouldn't do it. (K I'll stop making an argument against your town points for me now )

Why think watch-immune is more important over track-immune?

Because if watch-immune goon gets lynched, the tracker becomes a named Townie, and if they claim they become confTown and watcher can camp on them.

(Originally, Titus had a whole plan of what Town should do if watch-immune goon gets lynched, but it had a serious flaw - she forgot the other goon was track-immune and had the tracker clearing VT's after the flip. She thought the possibility of having so many confTowns at lylo was why scum wanted watch-immune goon protected.)

Despite that flaw, watcher is still a stronger PR than tracker, so watch-immune goon is the stronger scum-PR.

[Alchemist21]

Molla, what do you think of Mara?

[Alchemist21]

Who isn't aware of their own meta???

I'm pretty sure that nobody is 100% aware of their own meta, nor are they 0% aware. Some people are capable of manipulating their own meta, some aren't, and some are capable but usually just don't care to do so.

[Alchemist21]

@BPC: This:

I do agree that Mara being off on her own world is a point in her favour, and I like her read on Alchemist came roughly when my doubts were emerging. I also agree with Patrick she's unlikely to be scum with Alchemist21. I don't know if I want to outright clear her, just because Mara's post has some moon-logic leaps I don't follow (Where is the read on serrapaladin coming from her? Why Patrick?), but it's not really a scummy sort of moon-logic.

Also, I mostly liked her RVS posts. So overall, weak town? There are a bunch of people I like more than her.

TBH, right now, I think Quilford is about as likely to be scum as Mara is. (I want this on the record, in the unlikely event I die and someone goes, "Ooh, Quilford wouldn't have posted on D1.") I think he'd be a really awful lynch for today, because his alignment will become really clear soon. But don't let him coast on, "Look, I'm town I'm town I'm town I'm town I'm town!" Eventually, he'll scumhunt more organically.

How long do you think that's going to take for Quilford? How long are you willing to give him a pass?

[Alchemist21]

You forgot about Elemental Mafia. If you want me to link you to any offsite games I can.

[Alchemist21]

Because if watch-immune goon gets lynched, the tracker becomes a named Townie, and if they claim they become confTown and watcher can camp on them.

And if track immune does, tracker basically becomes a cop

Yeah, that is true. Watcher is generally considered more powerful, and Titus' original plan was about making as many confTown as possible.

Yesterday, it felt like pulling teeth trying to get some explanations out of her. I understand she's on V/LA, but if she was here long enough to respond to those questions she could have explained stuff the first time.

It should have. I am not apt to explain stuff when I don't want to/no real reason to. Especially not early game.

Here, I want my lynch and I am trying to defend you with my limited time, and it also isn't like reads haven't changed a but over time!

Do you really think scum is more likely to be stubborn with their.reads vs town, though? Because I just kinda realized that seems to be a big push for you and your scum reads.

Why shouldn't players explain themselves? I can't understand a player's stances or pushes if they don't give some kind of explanation, and scum would love to be able to get away with not having to explain themselves. If I know a thing or two about a player then I may not always need an explantiom since I know how they think, but I've never played with anyone on this game, so when I ask for an explanation that apparantly exists, only to be told, "It's a secret to everyone," it makes me feel like the player's hiding something. I can understand a Town player wanting to keep some sensitive info a secret, but I just don't see how it's pro-Town to consistently keep doing it for the most fundamental aspects of the game. You yourself said part of why you're Townreading me is how I'm giving a lot to work with. If you agree that's pro-Town, then why aren't you reciprocating?

I also lied about not voting! My teammates are busy with their games, but I did get some things out of them regarding you, which gave me a but of insight on how you operate but what it is isn't of much importance other than the fact that it makes you vying for town tokens as you stated you did so earlier alot more likely.

It's important to me. I want to know what was said because I want to see if it's stuff that could plausibly come from them or if it's just stuff you're making up in Left Field. For example, I want to know why Pie would think I would be more likely to go for the Town token. I was scum with Pie once and got to 5-p LyLo, whereas in our Town game together I was honestly terrible at trying to even keep up with the game, let alone form solid reads. I even replaced out of that game because I realized just how bad I was. Honestly, I would see that more likely to come from Mastin, who replaced into the same game I was Town with Pie not too long before I replaced out (and may or may not remember me that game) and has also modded my Town game in HU 2 where I was much better than in Touhou 2.

Right now, I am more interested in keeping you from getting lynched, and hopefully get pat lynched as soon as your safety is secured

I still want to know if your Pat push comes from thinking he's actually scummy, or just less-Towny than others.

[Alchemist21]

@Mod, SerraPaladin voted me back in post 333.

[Alchemist21]

ETL, Titus wants me to reach out to you emotionally. I'm not really sure how to do that, but I'm pretty sure you can pick up on my frustration in my 391. She says you're better at reading people emotionally.

Also, and this is @everyone, I feel like I should go over my basic case on Quilford here one more time.
-He never really showed a scumread on me until there was suspicion already on me from Patrick and Mina. I read his jump onto the wagon as pretty opportunistic.

-Since his push on me, he has refused to engage anyone other than Mina and myself.

Let's even go into the meta discussions that have been had about him thus far (and this will include talk of his own self-meta).

-Mina mentioned earlier that she saw him in a prior game be obvscum because if his horrible reads. He's been extremely vague about his reads this game, and I think it's because he's worried that if he attempts to be open about his reads he'll be caught as scum.

-Quilford and Mina have brought up this about his scummeta - he lurks and is incredibly nervous. Whether or not you accept self-meta as valid, the description is a close fit to his play this game if you look closely. It is true that he has a high post volume (in the top 3 if I'm not mistaken) but his refusal to interact with the majority of the players essentially amounts to active lurking.

-He is acting incredibly nervous in this game. He justifies his tunnel on me partly because my teammates, Mina's teammates, and myself are scumreading him. Given that so far most of the in-game players have townread him and agree that I'm scum, it's not much pressure on him, so he shouldn't be nervous to the point of shutting down if he's Town.

The last part of this post is a point of my own defense. I have been the main wagon for the vast majority of this game. I am currently at L-1, and there is still no counterwagon. This should be a strong indicator to most people (if not everyone) that the wagon is indeed on Town.

[Alchemist21]

RE BBMolla:
I still think there's a chance he could be scum because:

-When he got into the game, one of the first things he did was look at the votes on him. At this point, he and I both had 2 votes on our wagon. ScumMolla would have every reason to jump onto my wagon at this point. By voting me and using Patrick's reasoning for the vote, it looked like blatant scum jumping on the easy wagon to me.

-His later posts make me feel better about him. For one, soon after his vote on me he said he thought Serra was my buddy (though if Molla is Town he should seriously rethink that opinion now). It didn't make much sense until he pointed out the post that caused that belief, at which point I could see how one could think that (and later someone else mentioned this too; can't remember if it was Patrick or BPC).

-His accusation of ETL's post as being gross and the resulting interaction made me think he was scummy for tossing a vague accusation her way, then immediately backing down when she lashed out. Then I remembered something Titus told me earlier in the game - ETL can Towntell if pushed hard enough. Looking back, I can see that's what Molla was likely doing here.

-If Molla is Town, I would really prefer he try being at least a little more open about why he thinks the things he does, because as it is now I feel like I have to stand on my tip-toes and stretch my neck to see where he's coming from even half the time.

[Alchemist21]

RE Mara:

If she's Town, I really want her to be more open too. I'm not going to hand out a Townread for her just for being my knight in shining armor here, because when people start Townreading me for *reasons* I just get paranoid that it could be scum looking to pocket me (pocketing a player means saving them from a predicament or suspicion as a way to buddy up to them). I can get it of you don't like making longer posts than you need to, but I just can't understand you if you stay vague all the time, so if you're Town I need you to meet me somewhere in the middle here.

[Alchemist21]

Sorry about your tonsilitis, ETL!

I'm here, so you can talk with me.

[Alchemist21]

Sorry about your tonsilitis, ETL!

I'm here, so you can talk with me.

hello.

can you explain what you were saying about why you jumped to my side when quil was questioning me? i mean, i can understand asking questions to figure out what someone is thinking, but there are several ways to go about that and you did it in a way that really made it look like you were trying to get me on your side, and the fact that we have no games together makes me think there is some other reason.

that other reason being the same reason i catch titus time and time again - if your scum partner DOES have experience with me and told you not to push me because they know that doing so would make me focus on you.

this is why it really sticks out to me because there was no reason for you to do that - we have no games together, no prior meta. so where did that even come from? at the beginning of the game there are no connections, no reads, and yet for some reason you felt the need to step in between me and quil and his questioning of me.

can anyone understand what i'm trying to say here?

It was about trying to understand Quilford's push. When he said your posts looked knee-jerkey, I just didn't see it. Sometimes people see something I don't, but if they point it out to me then I might see it or I still might not.

I think you're misunderstanding here. Titus just said, "ETL can towntell if pushed hard enough." She didn't say not to push you, but I never saw anything to push from you. She wanted me to reach out to you emotionally because you're better at reading people by emotions. If I didn't want you focusing on me at all, I wouldn't be doing this right now.

[Alchemist21]

I'm not talking about Titus or what she told you.

I used her as an example of what I am talking about, which is getting feedback on how to deal with the playerlist, which just isn't necessary as town.

I think she thought if I reached out emotionally you would be able to read me more accurately. It's not about dealing with the player list but being able to understand a player and vice versa.

[Alchemist21]

Then I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

[Alchemist21]

Also, Titus wants me to post a message here. It's not a direct copy/paste but these are all her points.

MESSAGE FROM TITUS:

Spoiler:

She still thinks the scum in this game are Quil and Molla.

She thinks most people are tuning me out because that usually happens to non-group thinkers on D1.

She says Quil only provided content in response to tearing down my reasoning. She says it's not good content but general feel-good buddying.

She wants you to look at BBMolla's ISO and his tunneling on me and compare it to the last game Titus played with ETL. She says scum did the same thing in that game but had the ability to move discussion elsewhere. She also feels like BBmolla is just repeating "Alch is scum" without much real content.

Lastly, she says a wagon that forms and sticks like mine with no counterwagon is a sure sign that it's on Town.

[Alchemist21]

I think he's null. I haven't seen anything I would call scummy in this game, but nothing really Towny either. What he has posted seems like he's trying to figure out the game, but I'd prefer he post more often (Maybe he's like Mara and not posting much because it's Easter, so I'm willing to wait until after the weekend for this to start happening.).

[Alchemist21]

Lastly, she says a wagon that forms and sticks like mine with no counterwagon is a sure sign that it's on Town.

If you're scum, I think its entirely possible your partner feels compelled to push against you.

Titus wants you to look at Book of Shadows D1. (It's a mini theme from a while back.) She was scum in that game and they bussed D1, but they still tried counterwagons.

[Alchemist21]

Titus gave me some Molla analysis. I'm working on getting that to you.

[Alchemist21]

I've already started typing up what Titus said in my other tab, so you'll just have to wait for my analysis on you for after I post what Titus said.

Also, don't ask for analysis from either me or my teammates and then just pre-emptively dismiss the analysis because it's coming from my teammate.

[Alchemist21]

Just because Titus is good as scum doesn't mean her opinions are automatically invalid, especially since she's good as Town too.

Frankly I'm not surprised at your reaction here. If I were scum in your place, and the guy scumreading me had the impressive think-tank of Titus, ABR, and BBT behind him, I'd probably be shitting my pants too.

[Alchemist21]

You'll get my personal analysis of you. Titus is just giving the analysis on Molla.

[Alchemist21]

I'll get to this Mina.

[Alchemist21]

Titus' BBMolla analysis:

Spoiler:

All of Molla's posts up through 147 are fluff and him talking about how he hadn't read the game (a small exception here is a defensive post to Serra).

In 157, I voted Quilford. BBMolla's next post is to throw down a naked vote on me and keep fluffing.

In 183, he quotes Patrick's vote on me and calls Patrick Town without any explanation.

She also doesn't like BBMolla pushing an Alch-Serra team because Serra is the one who accused Molla of having a fake opening in 106.

The only real explanation BBMolla gave for his vote on my was my RVS comment. If he saw it earlier and thought it was scummy, then why did he continue fluff posting?

206 is self-posturing from Molla. His posts up to this point were terrible and I pointed this out. BBMolla implied I was believing his posts to make himself look better.

BB's ISO is full of a baseless push on me and she thinks he doesn't want to read BPC because it would actually have to put effort into reading someone.

249 - BB talks about the game is full of veterans and content, but isn't providing any content of his own.

She also doesn't like BBMolla complaining about nobody talking about him when he hasn't given much to talk about.

273 - BBMolla pegs an Alch-Serra scumteam because my early posts lack direction and an agenda. Town should lack direction and an agenda in the early game.

Next I'll post my personal analysis of Quilford.

[Alchemist21]

Frankly I'm not surprised at your reaction here. If I were scum in your place, and the guy scumreading me had the impressive think-tank of Titus, ABR, and BBT behind him, I'd probably be shitting my pants too.

Did someone on your team suggest saying something like this?

No, this was 100% me.

[Alchemist21]

MINA I wasn't kidding when I said I wanted the Regfan case. Please post it, ta.

I don't think you even deserve regfan's case since you have no interest in my teammates' opinion.

HAHAHAH Oh my GOD guys.

Did Alchemist just post a list of summaries of posts in BBmolla's ISO without actually quoting any of BB's actual words at all? Can someone say information instead of analysis?

There are cited post numbers that you can go look up yourself. I assure you my analysis of you will have direct quotes.

[Alchemist21]

P.S. spr srs question: What's a hat recipe?

[Alchemist21]

Quilford-related posts incoming:

Spoiler:

Anyway sleepy times! I have reads but HAH you aint gettin none of that yet folks

Me telling you my reads is not going to solve the problem of you not having any. Nevertheless, I basically did so in my most recent post.

I'm not going to produce a reads list. But I will talk you through anything you're unsure about in my posting.

Mina I think we're in agreement about basically everything

From the very start, Quilford keeps his reads list a secret from everyone. The only reads that could be inferred from his posts up to this point are a Townread on Mina, a scumread on me, and arguably a scumread on ETL (I'm not sure of he was actually scumreading her or just pushing her there).

Now look at his interaction with Mina.

Hey Mina what does your team say about me :3

Teehee! I like Mina's posts.

Mina I think we're in agreement about basically everything

Quilford, as a fair warning I don't think you're going to get anything productive by continuing to argue with Alchemist at this point. I think the case has been made, and turning this into a back-and-forth might start to bog up the thread. Remember the adage about not convincing scum that they're scum?

YES, MOOOOM

I think it's really weird that BPC is assigning his own reasons for

my

read.

Can you explain this?

I think I understand what was going on here, if you want me to explain.

The overall impression I get here is that he's acting very buddy-buddy to Mina, whom he's Townreading for *reasons*. He says he agrees with her on virtually everything, but he never shows us his own thoughts. He seems pretty attached to Mina and looks like he's trying to keep on her good side the whole game.

Oh hey! Thoughts!

Regfan is wrong and we both know it, Mina. You know I would be a ball of catatonic gibbering nervousness as scum right now.

Nevertheless I will tell you more about my reads sometime soon, but it's 3 am and I have no idea why I'm awake so not now.

Alchemist is becoming increasingly desperate, his accusation to BBmolla of 'vote parking' and his attempts to bring other people's meta on him prove it. What matters is that he has not produced any read or gone through any process of scumhunting that was not in reaction to someone calling him scum. Anyone can lash out at their attackers when they feel their life is on the line, but

only town can convincingly display their thought process as they pick through pieces of people's posts to try and figure out who scum is,

and Alchemist has been doing none of that.

You clearly don't know what scumhunting is. Scumhunting =/= posting reads lists.

Your assumption that I sheeped Mina rests on no solid evidence but on the presupposition that I'm scum, which itself is what you're trying to prove by arguing that I sheeped Mina. In fact, if you looked inside my Team PT you would see that at 8:59.17 am, a full hour before Mina made her reads post in thread, I posted a reads list basically the same as Mina's bar the position of two names.

This is the same thing as what you're doing when you accused BBmolla of looking like scum parking his vote. There's nothing to say that BBmolla isn't just town who is convinced of your alignment. You're just assuming he's scum and then using that to frame his actions as scummy, instead of any inherent scumminess in them. This is precisely how scum fake scumhunting, and you are doing it right now.

You saw people start to scumread me and decided to hop on that wagon. You've been opportunistic, and you expect us to have some blind faith that you're Town?

Again, what you are doing is assuming that I am scum, and describing my behaviour 'in light' of that fact.

I can equally say that the fact that I hopped on your wagon after other people did is (1) not relevant, since I arrived at the conclusion that you were scum independently; (2) except in the sense that I was bolstered to vote for you by the fact that other people who I thought were town were now scumreading you.

Neither of us can prove either version of events. But you're the one using your version of events to argue that I'm scum, which is the thing you're supposing in the first place to build your version of events. It's embedded in the very language you used: 'decided to hop on', 'being opportunistic'.

These are the first actually substantial posts from Quilford, and they are all geared at shooting me down along with my scumreads on him and BBMolla. His main argument here is that I'm assuming he's scum, and adds that he came to conclusions independently, and nothing indicated BBMolla wasn't Town who just agreed with the wagon.

Look carefully at the bolded in the first quote. Quilford thinks only Town can convincingly display their thought processes as they figure out alignments, but up until this point his thought processes have been some big super-duper secret.

Right.

Mina is definitely my strongest townread. Early on, she noticed that BPC, despite having made a couple of fairly incisive points (I particularly liked the olive branch comment in #20 and the point about Mara's post being the type to draw attention to itself in #56), wasn't actually drawing any conclusions from them. In fact some of what he was saying had a kind of 'defusing' effect: all of his points in posts #56, #71 and #72, for example, kind of counterweight any scumpoints with townpoints. The points taken individually aren't bad—sometimes things just are alignment-inconclusive!—but because they made up the bulk of what he was saying at the time, it seemed that he was just being generally wishy-washy.

Now, I didn't notice that BPC was being cumulatively pretty fence-sitty until Mina pointed it out in #74 and #79. When I read those posts by Mina and had a second look at BPC, I was kind of thrilled to notice that there was this entire angle on BPC's posting that I had completely missed. So I started to lean pretty heavily towards Mina-town from that point forward.

My read on Mina was further strengthened when she posted nearly exactly the same reads in #144 as I had in my team's PT an hour earlier. I was pretty certain then that we were on similar wavelengths, and that accordingly she was more likely to be town.

The other town thing is the frequency and naturalness of how she posts her teammates' reads in-thread and compares them with her own. I really just think that, had she drawn scum, it would not be possible for her teammates to sustain this for so long.

I would like Regfan's case on me, though, just so I can confirm it exists.

Okay so there's no googly eyes moment like I had with Mina with anyone else who I think is town.

But I do like Patrick, because he was the first to bring up Alchemist. Until then I was kind of iffy about Al, because Al was asking too many questions and responding to people's thoughts rather than having any original ones of his own, but I also thought he hadn't spent a lot of time on the site (he's definitely the least experienced player here) #55 was too cheeky for newbscum, and he could just be newbtown. So I had kind of filed him under 'look into later' in my head.

But when Patrick brought up #121, I was like 'maybe I should take a closer look'. Then I realised that Al had posted

literally no reads

, almost all of his posts were part of trivial back-and-forths with people, and that he had done no digging after people's motivations of his own.

So I credit Patrick with putting me onto my first substantial scumread. I also like his meta-awareness about how Day 1 lynches tend to pan out in #311, because I find it very very relatable.

I am given slight pause by how easily he dismissed a lot of the early game in #121, and I'm unconvinced by his read on serra, but on the whole I think he's likely to be Town and at the very least isn't somewhere we should be going with today's lynch.

As I've mentioned above, BBmolla is firmly in the 'AAARGH' pile because on the one hand his blend of total nonchalance and utter self-conciousness strikes me as very town (I think it reminds me of me a little). Hilariously, though, I really don't like his reads, they seem pretty shallow and surface-level (I think #246 is the

worst

reason to think Alchemist is scum, I don't see what BB is seeing at all in #183), but how detailed can you get when you're only using max 3 sentences per post?? Which is how BB tends to roll independent of alignment if I remember correctly. In conclusion, asfhasjkfhaskldjh and I want you to go further into your read on ETL please.

I lean town on ETL because I think #49 and #52 contained a neat little flash of insight ("Everyones town until I find a reason for them being scum" seems very unusual to me too), and I like her response to BBmolla in #370. However I feel like her posting has changed since her 3-day absence and it weirds me out a bit.

Marangal I am just flat-out not sure about. I really disagree with her reasons for thinking Alchemist is town and I think they are in conflict with the fundamental conceit of 'uninformed majority vs informed minority' (I really, really don't think refusing to push another wagon is something an uninformed townie would do), but she has explained them convincingly enough. I wish she would talk more about her scumreads, they don't strike me as particularly strongly-held.

BPC is also null, as I've already said I didn't like his early fencesitting. I also hate hate hated when he said Mina was 'blatantly not caring about reads' in #114, it seemed like hilariously over-the-top rhetoric in the way that scum are sometimes prone to (Mina also took issue with it, which is another reason I forgot to mention why I like her for town). But aside from his 40 hr absence a little back, he has been pretty engaged.

I have no idea whatsoever about serra. Like, none. I get town vibes and scum vibes off things but it's all gut. I should probably do some meta.

I was starting to waver a teeny bit on Alchemist because he actually posted some reasoning for me being scum that wasn't 'uuuuh he's not scumhunting' without any further elaboration. But no, fuck that. His reasoning for his reads is still abysmal, there's just more of it now. I think most of my worry here comes from the fact that he's actually at L-1 now. In TM2012 I started to waver on Captain Ajax when he was really close to being lynched (until he made an awful fakeclaim), and he was scum, and I'm scared I'm going to lose my nerve here too, despite Al being my biggest scumread by miles.

Gah.

These are actually really good posts for showing us his thoughts, and for what it's worth they made me feel slightly better about him. I can see him reasonably thinking all these things when at the time he says they happened. The reason I only feel slightly better by them is the timing and how they came about. Did we get to see them around the time they happened? No. We see it several hundred posts after the fact and three seperate people had asked him to start engaging the other players. I think Town players would have given something (didn't have to be as detailed, but SOMETHING) around the time they stated feeling one way, or if not then at least when asked.

I'll end this by throwing Quilford 3 bones and a question or two.

1. When Quilford went on about how he thinks I'm the obvscum and why other people weren't seeing this, well, that's a lot how I feel about him. That planted a small seed of doubt in my mind that there was a small chance he may actually be Town.

2. I actually like his posts at the end there. They don't have to be as detailed, but if I see him regularly posting things like this from now on, he might be able to convince me he's Town.

3. ABR came in our PT today, looked over this game, and said he thinks you're Town. He also says Mina is scum though, and he wouldn't give reasons for either read beyond he knows Mina in real life.

Now the question. Say I'm lynched today. I flip Town. Who do you go for next?

I think if you actually turn out to be Town, then scum are probably comfortable with the TvT noise.

[Alchemist21]

Needs a moustache.

[Alchemist21]

Mara, could you please respond to me on:

-what your team has said a little more specifically (and not just about me but all players they've discussed)

-if you think Patrick is scummy or just less Towny than others

[Alchemist21]

I see people are still recovering from their Easter hangovers.

[Alchemist21]

Nice fakehammer. molla's already on my wagon.

[Alchemist21]

BB fooled all the wrong people.

[Alchemist21]

Mara, will you answer my questions now?

[Alchemist21]

BB fooled all the wrong people.

I don't think it fooled anyone, actually. <_< Because that was ridiculously transparent.

You looked the most fooled imo.

[Alchemist21]

Oh, ok. I'll let pie keep his meta.

There's still my question about Patrick.

[Alchemist21]

Ok. Why do you think Patrick's scum?

[Alchemist21]

An Alch flip of either alignment tells us SO SO SO SO SO MUCH

Add that to the fact I think he's scum

Why the fuck would we not lynch him

Maybe you'll answer what Quilford wouldn't. Who are your scumreads when I flip Town?

[Alchemist21]

An Alch flip of either alignment tells us SO SO SO SO SO MUCH

Add that to the fact I think he's scum

Why the fuck would we not lynch him

Maybe you'll answer what Quilford wouldn't. Who are your scumreads when I flip Town?

Mara and Serra.

If Serra's scum both ways why aren't you voting him?

[Alchemist21]

Do I think he could be scum? Doubtfully but possibly. But I'm not looking for super sekrit scum today, get the obvious partner first THAN follow the breadcrumbs to the other one.

An Alch flip of either alignment tells us SO SO SO SO SO MUCH

Add that to the fact I think he's scum

Why the fuck would we not lynch him

How is this not a contradiction?

Maybe you'll answer what Quilford wouldn't. Who are your scumreads when I flip Town?

Mara and Serra.

If Serra's scum both ways why aren't you voting him?

Your flip tells us more than his.

[Alchemist21]

BB is doing associative tells backwards. He should be wanting to wagon Serra and guaging Mara's and my reactions.

[Alchemist21]

I want to break my phone.

I am tracker, lynch pat NOW

Seriously?

[Alchemist21]

Get back on the pat wagon etl, and join the one wagon that ever had a.Hammer without a claim is a policy lynch. No exceptions chance of getting off other than yours alch

This post is hard to understand.

[Alchemist21]

Can I wait for serra to come out with his catch-up before hammering?

Should I consider this intent?

[Alchemist21]

If alch was scum he's being superbly shitty at surviving, and doing and doing things that make his survival easier which would be against his alignment

The ironic thing is that surviving longer is why I think I'm better as Town.

[Alchemist21]

We need to lynch the watch-immune goon today. That's the only way to keep trackerMara alive.

[Alchemist21]

I'm pretty dead tonight, so.

If we lynch the watch-immune goon, the watcher watches you. It would be suicide for the other scum to attack you because they'll get caught.

[Alchemist21]

We need to lynch the watch-immune goon today. That's the only way to keep trackerMara alive.

Is that you or your buddy

Neither since I'm not scum.

[Alchemist21]

Because alch is still town and pat is still scum and im tired.of no one frying to.listen to me

And now I'm conf.town

Were you really so confident in scumPatrick that you would prematurely claim for it?

[Alchemist21]

alch

what are you trying to achieve

with that question

other than looking like you're doing something

Titus is wanting me to sheep Mara on Patrick just because she was confident enough to claim early. I'm not going to do that though.

[Alchemist21]

I g2g eat. Since this game has turned into a screaming match, I'm going to assume Mina has intent and claim in case I get hammered before I get back. I'm a VT.

Mara, if you're willing to claim because of your Patrick read, then I want you to give me more explanation for your read, because as it is now I don't see it, and I'm not going to sheep it like Titus wants me to.

[Alchemist21]

I have to go to bed. It's past 2am and I haven't been so pissed off in a long time. If alchemist tries to use his last post to transition onto me, he should be killed with fire immediately.

@Quilford @Patrick

Have you guys played with Titus before? She thinks you guys sound like you have, but she doesn't remember either of you unless there were alts.

[Alchemist21]

I thought I had, but was confusing her with TheWayItEnds.

Why does she ask?

She says you guys are doubting the stuff she says because of her rep as good scum but don't seem to know about her rep for good VCA and setup spec as Town. She was thinking maybe your teammates had told you about her scumplay but not about her Townplay.

[Alchemist21]

The only difference I'm seeing in the ISO's is a lower activity level here. Is that what you're getting at Mina?

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist, are your top suspects still Quilford and BBmolla?

Yeah, though I have been waffling a bit on Molla. When I finally got to see the reason he had me/Serra as a team and when I noticed the tone difference in his games, I started to think he could be Town. His fakehammer gambit gave me a lot of strong Town vibes, and I'd been paranoid about Mara's defense of me to the point of not being sure which one was scum. Then Mara claimed Tracker, which is terrible play but I think it does come from frustrated Town (my first game on MS had two Town wagons self-hammer, so I learned early that frustrated Town can do some stupid shit). Also, Molla's stance on his reads and his lynch preference seems backwards to me. He says I'm his strongest scumread, but then says Serra is scum regardless of my flip, and says my flip determines whether Mara is scum or Town. I don't think pre-flip associations are a bad thing when considering the feasibility of a scumteam, but it makes no sense for a Town player to read someone as scum regardless of what another player flips, and using that as a reason to lynch the other player first.

[Alchemist21]

UNVOTE:

Quilford, that post does actually make sense. 743 Makes me feel better about you and worse about ETL, especially since now that Quilford is engaging her, she wants to hammer out of frustration. It sounds cowardly.

[Alchemist21]

743 is really Town to me overall too because I don't see scum questioning the player that's about to hammer their top scumread the same way Quilford's doing. They would sit back and let the hammer happen.

[Alchemist21]

UNVOTE:

To prevent any frustration-related hammers.

This does not give the Alchemist wagon permission to fall apart. Don't do that.

Quilford, who will you think is scum if I get lynched and flip Town?