Newbie 1903 | Stuff I Found Online Vii | Over

[teacher]

How can you boy someone withiout a post?

VOTE: Jonesy

[teacher]

IC Intro, adapted from many others

Hey everybody! I'm teacher, your Inexperience-Challenged (IC) player for the game (it's my first time)! That means I am here to lead by example and answer your questions along the way. I will be playing to my win condition to the best of my ability, but if you have questions about Game Theory or Da Rules, I am required to answer them honestly, and to be clear when I am speaking as am IC vs. as a Player. Just as an FYI, I am a teacher with limited daytime access, but I will be signing on at night every night to give thoughts and respond.

Here are some helpful links (a lot of them from our helpful wiki):

-> Forum Rules and Guidelines
-> The Glossary
-> Commonly Used Abbreviations
-> The Newbie Guide
-> Articles on How to Play Well (be sure to check the dates these were written/updated, as good advice changes over time)

And here are some helpful tips:

->

Try to check in at least once a day.

Besides the activity requirements listed in Plotinus' original post, it's just necessary for a fun and healthy game that everyone

plays

. If you post very rarely, or only post a little bit at a time, you may get scumread for lurking. Even if you are not scumread for it, what's the fun in playing a game where multiple people are hardly participating?

->

"Site Meta"

is the description of how people on Mafiascum like to play mafia. Things can be different on other online mafia sites, or if you play IRL, so it's good to know what's expected of you on this site. These aren't "rules", per se, but if you don't follow these guidelines it is likely things will go poorly for you on MS. Some examples are...

--->

Give "intent to hammer"

when you want to place the final vote on a player. This gives time for that player to give a final plea and to claim their power role, if they have one (or if they are lying scum). If, after that player has posted, you are still sure you want to hammer them, go ahead and place the final vote. It is also common courtesy to declare "L-1" ("1 Vote away from lynch) when you place the penultimate vote on a player.

---> Don't claim your role until you are in danger of getting lynched - usually, you want to keep it a secret right up until someone gives intent to hammer. Sometimes, everyone will agree to claim in a "massclaim".

Other than these situations, do not make your role obvious,

even if you are a vanilla townie, as claiming makes it easier for scum to kill power roles at night.

--->

Do not fake claim a power role as town!

While it may help you avoid getting lynched, you might cause a real PR to out themselves by counter claiming - then the mafia will know who the PR is, and you will probably get lynched for lying to town. Feel free to fake a claim as scum, though, if you think it would help.

--->

Don't vote for yourself.

There are very rare occasions where this is helpful in non-newbie games, but usually only for scum, so if you do it here you will certainly get scumread for it.

->

Mafia is hard!

As town, it can be hard to figure things out, and stressful when people think you're scum.

That's okay!

Just share your thoughts on who you think is scum as they come to you, and don't be afraid to change your mind. As scum, it can be hard to lie convincingly, and stressful when people think you're scum. Don't let that scare you! Try to think of what you would post if you were town, and don't be afraid to "change your mind".

-> This is a game.

Have fun!

-Teacher

[teacher]

VOTE: Jones because didn't use an emote

Scummy RVS wagon building? (mostly kidding, just signed on at lunch and wanted to say at least something game relevant in addition to the below).

IC Things. Thx RCE and Nearly Bird for the SE/RVS explanation as well. In case you are wondering why RCE used "our," I believe they are a hydra of two people who have agreed to act together in one slot for the game. Such a practice is relatively common on Mafia Scum Dot Net, and can be quite fun. They/He can of course correct me if I am wrong about that.

[teacher]

Discussing jumping questions for the board an to provide info for true newbs. All slots kindly answer.

1. What is your experience at Mafia
2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum
4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or town

[teacher]

Discussing jumping questions for the board an to provide info for true newbs. All slots kindly answer.

1. What is your experience at Mafia
2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum
4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or town

1. RL years ago; appr 12 forum games in the last year.
2. I effort obv!town (but have a lot less time during the school year)
3. I effort obv!town (see above).
4. Motivations, probabilities, and associations. For each post, I try to ascertain the motive behind it. Does it seem town-motivated or scum-motivated. To be sure, both town and scum have similar objectives, but they arent overlapping. Town is not as afraid of being lynched, because there will be a mislynch at some point; scum knows that their death is 50% of a loss. Town wants to out real analysis to advance the game; scum wants to repeat information that everybody knows so they can appear to be helping without actually doing it. Another key area of difference is in probabilities. Here, I cant say it much better than a strategy article from the Wiki (link). I'll speak more on associations tomorrow if Im still kicking.

[teacher]

@teacher, are two votes even concerning at this stage? I agree maybe L-2 or -1 is but why does this look like possible scum weak wagon building to you?

No. In fact I like RVS wagons, because the pressure can be AI (alignment indicative). I actually think that post was mostly NAI (not ....), and I think the same about most individual posts. I get most of my reads out of a mass of posts, to build a sense of the person making them and their thought process, and then seeing if anything in that ISO (hence the iso link in each post - clicking it will let you see all posts by that one player in the entire thread) sticks out as being inconsistent with the personality and thought process.

That said, I did give it slight slight scum points for being a very early second vote without any reasons OR a joke - one that could be explained easily as RVS but also grabs an earlier/explainable place on a possible wagon.

I’m finding an IC to be a bit of a challenging role, especially in this relatively quiet game. I’m normally a reaction player rather than one fostering discussion, but I feel an obligation to foster here. Hence the comment on something I wouldn’t ordinarily have commented upon. Nothing at all is >rand yet for me (this is a common expression on MS to explain confidence level in reads. Right now, from uniformed town perspective, all slots are 6/8, or 75% likely to be town. If I think someone is more than 25% likely to be scum, say 50%, I’d say rand+25 — a really strong read).

[teacher]

VOTE: Snowbeast

The case is actually good too.

You convinced me.

VOTE: snowbeast.

Thanks for replacing and welcome.

[teacher]

Natural-FYI it is “custom” to have an avi here as a way of “facial recognition”. If you are not graphically inclined I can search up some croutons.

[teacher]

And Jonesy wins the town prize. I disappeared rather than answer 36 because I didn’t want to say I made up a post doing exactly what I described to see if anyone caught the inconsistency.

@RCE, I like your style and thoughts. Such was indeed the purpose of having the questions, and the mix of them. It also has an alternate purpose to provide newbs the benefit of some thoughts on how to hunt - I often find the response or lack of response to 4 the most telling. I used it to bag a scum page one the last time they were used too. That said, I wish you had held off on the case for a bit until all slots had answered so that the incomings won’t see behind the screen as it were.

@snowbeast: I’m among the wordiest players in the games I play. I feel like RCE might be up there too, but haven’t played with him (sorry btw) before. Shorter posts tend to be more common than not, and that’s certainly true outside the newb queue even more.

[teacher]

note that saying nothing or timing what you say can be important to any alignment - you can plant actions on purpose and use the finding of them to try to identify people who are really reading/analyzing/thinking versus those who already know the answers. Note also that linking post numbers - [ post ] ### [ /post ] without spaces - is a common courtesy if you’re going to discuss a specific post without quotes so that the reader can decide if you’re being accurate or fully responsive. Now off to school

[teacher]

Teach, it would be nice if you could provide a link to that game, I'm interested

Game.
I was a VT replace in where these exact questions were pending. Upon my arrival I previded a fresh scum read on a scum slot based on their answers in
Post 127. That slot was flipped scum on D3.

My lunch ends in 5 so Im going to do a quick hit on other things -- @Jonesy, I find it difficult to believe that you actually think an IC scumslipped with a blatant contradiction 10 minutes after explaining how to do an ISO. I cant tell if you are hunting for anyone excited to kill an IC, or if you are.....

@whoever commented on the self-meta aspects of 2 and 3 -- yes. Those questions are mostly fluff. But it is fluff against which to get a sense of the effort answering 4, and it also provides a baseline for how self-aware a player is, which I personally find helpful in performing meta (And yes, I believe in meta)

@Overkill -- please provide any thoughts on the game -- how has Jonesy rubbed you? RC? Me?

[teacher]

New York City time.

[teacher]

Roo is actually my top town right now.

Out of curiousity, what is your profession? I am a recovering lawyer, and we seem to read everything the same way. Its actually kinda freakin me out.

We need to be a little more active guys. We wont get anywhere otherwise.

LAMIST (look at me Im so town).

started this before my kids woke up, but getting it out now...

I feel like we should wait for snowbeast to react to the votes before we do something else, like putting more pressure on him/her to get another reaction or pressuring someone else. I know what I just said amounts to "wait and see", but it's very possible that the person just doesn't come on to mafiascum all that often, and maybe didn't expect games to be so active so early (personally, I thought two pages for day 1 was pretty active, I didn't think it would be considered quiet). It's probably more useful for him/her to come back with two votes on his/her back instead of being immediately at L-2 or even L-1 (probably not gonna happen unless we're really impatient to get day 1 over with); we can always pressure him/her more later - this way we have more options to provoke more reactions over time.

I appreciate your pushback and it feels consistent with the personality Ive seen in your other oposts. Although as Jonesy said in an early post, two votes really isnt much pressure.

On your general note, real life day 1 during Day one tends to get a spate of activity, with a lot of joke/fluff posting. Day 1 then has a couple peaks and valleys of activities. Day 2 tends to be shorter, with a consensus. But these are typical patterns I have noticed, not necessarily rules.

[teacher]

after Thespio points out the RCE is buddying Teacher, Teacher doesn't find this troublesome at all

I dont it troubling. If anything, I think the "buddying" and the concern should be coming the other way, at me. RCE has posted the game advancing scum read with a case, and a townread (without one). He has also explained why he thinks Im town, rather than just saying it - and he did so before Jonesy IIRC, so it didnt seem to be whiteknighting. If its buddying. its a bit more detailed/revealing than I expect others would want to be. Im pretty comfortable with how he is playing, and I think others should be too. I on the other hand have not explained any of my reads other than the weak RVS comment, and appear to be just sheeping RCE around.

@0verki11 - forgetfulness happens. But I have a question pending to you. Kindly post a read and reasons.

[teacher]

Take all the time you want - I’m out for the night.

[teacher]

Also, in line with what Jones is talking about, why would you post a post that specifically does something that you said was slightly scummy in order to see if anyone caught on to the inconsistency? How does that help us?

It doesnt help you. It helps me. It plants a seed someone

should

find. I can award the person finding it townie points. TBH, I was hoping it wouldnt be an SE.

[teacher]

KidLyoko hasn't confirmed in time and is being replaced.

Welcome Skitter. I'm mechanically slight scum on your slot, but I am really excited to play with you rather than just watch. Thanks for replacing in.

[teacher]

pediatric

You called a teacher pedantic (Im assuming that was the typo?) like thats a bad thing

[teacher]

there was only a 24 hour gap between posts

From 29 to 74 is 42. Perhaps this is a typo.

You saw that the post was being talked about and repeated what had already been said to gain towncred.

Hmmmm.

• Jonesy talks about my Snowbeast vote in 44
  
• and in 83
  
• Thespio joins in 89

Only then, in 94, does 0verki11 join in - when it "saw that the post was being talked about and repeated what had already been said."

[teacher]

your reaction was to affirm Thespio's view [that RCE was buddying me]. That to me, is a bit suspicious. Because the conventional wisdom I think would be to be suspicious of RCE, and

if you are supportive of that,

then I am suspicious of you.

The point of my post was that I am not supportive of any read that RCE was buddying me. My point was that if anyone was buddying, it was me.

Although I am curious if you would categorize your Snowbeaast vote as a random vote or a vote with intent behind it? Because when you voted RCE had not yet presented his read. Are you fully signing on to that read or do you have anything additional to add beyond what you have already provided regarding the motivation for the questions.

@teach - when you read scum on Sunlit at the time due to their dodging of question 4 (which, as you pointed out, was the correct read), was that a strong scumread for you? Do you think question 4 has the power to out someone like that?

Two answers for the price of one: I am fully signed onto RCE's read and the case, but I am weaker on it than I

think

RCE is. I had debated shifting onto the lyoko slot once the mod announced it was going to be replaced, or onto other slots simply to try to move pressure. I award question 4 scum points but its not enough by itself for a full scumread. I decided not to move because I didnt like the beast's reaction to the case, though Im willing to give them time since it was already the South African weekend.

[teacher]

I didn't give a reason why so that I could hear Teachers opinion on Roo.

Just because during the weeks, I use a phone rather than desktop for my midday readup, kindly use a question mark or an @ to direct something to me in the future.

My Roo read at the time of 67 and 68 was largely driven by 18's response to question four. It provides accurate scumhunting information to benefit newbs (a protown move), and reveals genuine effort to answer - essentially the inverse of snowbeast's. I also liked 31, it called out 0verki11's pre-disappearance request for posts to be LAMIST and felt like hunting to move us out of RVS (@RCE - just FYI, this is why I put the LAMIST in 68 - I was putting the part of my read not related to question 4 in).

*******

Sorry for the spam flurry of posts, just likely to be offline most of the day so woke up early to get it out. Be well y'all.

[teacher]

why are you mechanically slightly scum on my slot?

Because the difference in mod posts made it clear that the second newb (lyoko) had gotten/opened the Role PM but not posted. That sort of replace I find slightly +rand scummy. But I liked your intro analysis. I think I've answered your questions from 107 in posts after what you quoted, but let me know if anything is pending.

I found it scummy for different reasons which I stated.

Kindly explain how your point in 94 (that 28 contradicts 27) is ANY different from Jonesy's in 44 or 83

@Jonesy - on AAI, I have longer thoughts than I want to use a mobile for, so will get back to you tonight.

[teacher]

plot's post in the newbie queue requesting a replacement said the prior person had not picked up his role pm

I actually went and checked this out before Plot confirmed it, and that really did help me in terms of reading you.

@Plot

, just FYI, it was the difference between the language that implied to me that Lyoko had picked thiers up:

failed to pick up their role PM

hasn't confirmed in time

******

Teacher is a worse wagon than Snowbeast is

lotta townleans. I even threw Snowbeast in

I found this slightly discordant given that there were no Snowy posts in the interim. I mean, I appreciated you sharing your reads in 91 and dont necessarily disagree with 112, but Id appreciate it if you would speak on more on it.

Id also be interested in hearing your thoughts on Jonesy v. meta. That is my hardest slot to sort RN, and I went to meta and saw you played with them in 1895. If you dont believe in meta fair enough, but are you noticing similarities/differences?

*****
I will provide reasons for this in the afternoon (I woke up later than intended)
Teacher Skitter30
RCE Breadcrumbs
Roo
Jonesy Snowbeast
Thespio 0verki11

[teacher]

ok why'd you vote in the first place and/or what were you trying to learn if someone had caught the inconsistency?

^^^ this was wrt your snowbeast vote; if you had answered this already can you point me to it? (specifically the latter part of the question)

Im quoting my earlier answers, but also paraphrasing them.

Why I voted in the first place - essentially what RCE said. I scumread the entrance/lack of response to question 4.

I am fully signed onto RCE's read and the case,

I often find the response or lack of response to 4 the most telling. I used it to bag a scum page one the last time they were used too.

What I was trying to learn - Essentially (1) which slot paid attention enough to both catch AND quickly post it -- so that I can have expectations of that slot in other situations, and (2) whether anybody omitted it in a case. I expected to be a target today - ICs normally are in my experience -- but if someone made a push without having mentioned that, I could safely conclude it was motivated to get rid of the IC rather than newb!paranoia and actual analysis of my play.

I made up a post doing exactly what I described to see if anyone caught the inconsistency.

@Jonesy, I find it difficult to believe that you actually think an IC scumslipped with a blatant contradiction 10 minutes after explaining how to do an ISO. I cant tell if you are hunting for anyone excited to kill an IC, or if you are.....

[teacher]

intent to vote Teacher

Ummm I’m nowhere near L-1 unless I’ve missed a lot on my phone. Just vote.

[teacher]

Thank you for appearing to towntell, though there is one narrative where that is not a towntell. I am not opposed to the 0verki11 wagon, but for now want to sort between Thespio and Snowy. I dont want to get to L-1 just yet in the day.

@Snowy: Why announce that you would be hunting amongst lurkers/why not analyze the lurkers as of the time of your post?
@Thespio: What is your read of breadcrumbs?

My thoughts in general, FWIW, is that we should get to L-1 with around 3 days left, to allow time for intent, potential claims, and potential compromises to form if need be. On that note, I will remind players of my IC post advice -- dont roleclaim unless necessary, even as VT. I have less time today than I planned in terms of writing up the full board readslist. I will get that out tonight within 18 hours, guaranteed.

[teacher]

No disrespect, but which is it? You didn’t realize it? Or didn’t feel like it could be used/was needed? I’m also still waiting for you to explain the difference between your point and Jonesy’s.

*ill be at a comp soon but that one is too ridiculous.

[teacher]

snip

Im going to assume you meant vote, not post - fair enough. But you still havent answered this:

....snip....

You saw that the post was being talked about and repeated what had already been said to gain towncred.

Hmmmm.

• Jonesy talks about my Snowbeast vote in 44
  
• and in 83
  
• Thespio joins in 89

Only then, in 94, does 0verki11 join in - when it "saw that the post was being talked about and repeated what had already been said."

I found it scummy for different reasons which I stated.

Kindly explain how your point in 94 (that 28 contradicts 27) is ANY different from Jonesy's in 44 or 83.

[teacher]

Im going to be around for a bit typing up my readslist if anybody wants to chat.

[teacher]

What do you think of an 0verki11-Snowy team?

[teacher]

i'm thinking he probably isn't scum with teacher

Im betting your right, so either hes scum or teacher is, they are mutually exclusive in my mind at this point

I wish I wasnt involved with this 1v1 so you could trust that what follows comes from me as an IC:
Be careful of this thinking. I endorse it so far as it gets you to "their interactions are not SvS" -- what Skitter said. That can be a fair reading of mutually exclusive.

But I caution against excluding the possibility of TvT. Remember that all town are equally uninformed, and can get in some great faceoffs.

In other words, I think a redflip is alot more important of an associational datapoint than a greenflip.

[teacher]

snip.

Fair enough. Im trying to get a better sense of your board reads generally. I dont follow the evolution between 105 and 147 -- 105 seemed to suggest that RCE-me was TvS, laying groundwork to vote me. But then 147 continued the RCE-town narrative, but now ignored me and even seemed to be pushing towards the directions Ive been pushing (Thespio/snowy), at least weakly.

On the whole, It seemed like you were positioning yourself to get on my wagon if it got serious, but realized 0verki11's vote killed any momentum that was heading that way. Im trying to get you to be more specific about your compromise pool.

[teacher]

Unintentional Emoticon added during Pedit phase.

[teacher]

there was a specific post that made me think that this is indeed a distinct possibility, but i'm blanking on what made me think it

There were two in quick succession that made it seem pretty strong to me, but I dont want to get into that part of the case.

[teacher]

Nice. Like the list and the thoughts. Thank you. FWIW, what I am taking the time to type and link is essentially a slightly updated 121 that moves You and Jonesy up a bit and Thespio up a touch, so that my list is now (in order of town to scum):
Teacher
Skitter30
RCE
Roo
Jonesy
_______________sort zone
Breadcrumbs
Thespio
_______________sort zone
Snowy


0verki11

[teacher]

Redacted reference to ongoing game --P

[teacher]

Redacted reference to ongoing game --P

[teacher]

My bad. I thought newbs werent allowed in til the game is completed. And I shall stop talking. My apologies all, and thanks to Skitter for calling it.

[teacher]

Different games have different rules on resurrections or vengefuls. It is far better to be safe than sorry and just never mention another game that is not over. Ever.

PMing the mod, and apologies.

[teacher]

Town

: ranked list

• Teacher: Dirtbag.
  
• Skitter30: Hardtown read that can get confirmed through pressure on later days if needed, as she tends to panic-lurk as scum. I just don’t see informedscum!her putting in the effort to go through all the past posts and find reasonably genuine reactions for 107 and 109, since the slot wasn’t suspected much and she could have earned towncred simply by playing the rest of the day.
  
• RCE: The towny mindmeld that got me into trouble. But here its now a circle/block with Skitter. I think I can read skitter from history, so does RCE, and we all three seem to agree on the instincts. I also like the Thespio 1v1. @RCE, just FYI, it’s the snowy slip that moved them way down for me, in terms of a team.
  
• Roo: See 101. Plus, I like the way he both approached my buddying of RCE, and how he explained his own evolution in 182. Wish you felt more comfortable with pressuring people, but think that is a personality/playstyle disconnect we will always have.
  
  
• Jonesy: Moved way up for me primarily based on 155. This was a hard jump to a new slot that had just joined the wagon driven by Jonesy himself. Plus, the sheer fact that Jonesy was driving a wagon pretty hard suggests town – I don’t think SE scum wants to be that far out front of what would be an error. I had concerns that Jonesy was simply gunning for the IC, but those have been alieviated. There is one, and only one, narrative where I see this as a scum!motivated switch, but I will wait on that discussing that one.

So my error took me longer to deal with than I wanted. Ive gotten through half the player list, and explained my town block. I think my scumread on 0verki11 is obvious from my questions.

[teacher]

Im going to bring us to L-1 when I get up. Do NOT vote Overki11 after that point without giving intent and time for an explicit claim.

[teacher]

VOTE: 0verki11

From RCE's post among others, I think the votes are there for a functional lynch. I certainly think we are going to get intent and a claim. So now I will talk about why I think 0verki11 and snowy may be a team. Its the snowy VT soft in 115 plus:

Just leave me, I dont think ive ever played a town game where D1 I havent been a little lynchbaity, it will improve D2

I viewed this as a PR soft. I thought both players softing some town role in such quick succession was something that was likely discussed in the mafia PT, since neither soft seemed really necessary at the time.

The possibility that Jonesy saw 0verki11's soft and then used his vote to slingshot onto a PR is the one narrative Ive been referring to when discussing whether he is scum. Im inclined to believe that is not the case, in part because my "quick succession" posts last night was designed to see how others' read 117, and RCE didnt pick up on it when hinted at again. So Im stuck with my more likely theory, that scum!0verki11 and snowy decided to soft together.

Take all this with a grain of salt. I've never before named a complete scumteam D1, so I may very well be wrong. The IC in me also wants to add that it is ordinarily poor play to openly speculate on PRs. I am only doing so here and now because I think we likely get to the point of claims with 0verki11.

[teacher]

We are at L-1, do not vote 0verki11 without posting intent and giving time a hard claim

[teacher]

teacher, have i played with you before? i know you modded that game - did i talk about my meta there or did you metadive me?

Both. Ive actually been compared to you often enough that I metadived you before I modded that game, and you described your meta in it as well.

[teacher]

i hope this was in a complimentary way lol, i didn't know i was famous/cool enough for people i dont' know super well to be compared to me

It seemed it to me. I think (Im not sure) it was Elephant late this summer. Ive played four of my 10ish games here with him. My own meta, particularly during the summer when I had more time, was to do long reaction walls every 100 posts or so. So Elephant or someone called me a wordy nice analytical player somewhere between skitter and stungun.

That was the once incident that has semistuck in memory, but your name has come up before too. Either way, it is certainly fun playing w you!

[teacher]

i'm not super sure i really follow the connection you drew between overkill and snow here

It requires the assumption of a soft in 117 as well as 115. If you accept that assumption, you have two slots softing different town roles in quick succession -- perhaps a strategy discussed in scum PT as pressure ramped up on 0verki11. I can see where someone outside my head thinks I have built a Rube Goldberg machine, and I will accept that criticism and revisit my own thoughts. But it was the immediate reaction I had to both posts as early as my 156.

[teacher]

i'm more saying i don't really see the logic here for *team* reading them

I thought yours based on the 151 VC was pretty solid too. But lets be honest, the odds of calling the team accurately D1 is like 4%. Even absent the team flavor - which is there - they are my two highest individual scumreads.

[teacher]

that scum may not have a lot of impact/influence over the gamestate rn, and overkill/snow kinda fit that description

Ordinarily the lack of a counter wagon and the ease with which we are getting a majority on overkill would strongly influence me right now to push back. But I’m inclined to agree with this here.

[teacher]

can you talk to me about your scumgame in a general sense? do you like playing scum? do you think you're good at it? do you have any scumgames that you're proud of?

I try to play the same meta in both, think I’m about the same skill, and fully enjoy both - different challenges but it’s more the competition and trying to win that I enjoy. My best scum is also my only start to finish scum - normal penguins v otters in my topics.

[teacher]

Claim. Intent has been posted. You’ve softed enough anyways that “scum” already knows

[teacher]

And as I said wasting 3 days is dumb.

You want to have a claim around 3 days before deadline so that there can be another consensus if there is a claim that persuades people to go away.

I dont have time to reread this morning, so will have to follow along and I will try to case someone tonight if I havent been sold on something in the interim. (It's these sort of RL commitments that makes acting before deadline make sense)

[teacher]

I did post intent, if your claiming a Pr since it’s d1 I would be in favor of lynching someone else.

You really sure you want me to claim?
Also we have 3 days left so we shouldnt be in an hurry.

No, I’m telling you if you don’t want to I’m fine waiting until D2 for a claim.

This is also a really weird post but I can't tell if it's like TMI or spewing or what.

Why would not claiming here allow him to live? You literally posted intent to hammer him or did you not plan to hammer at all? Why post intent then? Looks a lot like PR hunting.

i interpreted this as two days before deadline, but yours is actually more logical and I will reread based on it.

[teacher]

Claim. Intent has been posted. You’ve softed enough anyways that “scum” already knows

Ehh, was worth a try, im VT lmao.

Nvm then, if you flip green I’m leaning against teacher.

This post feels wired to me ...
I think I need to unvote and reread thespio
UNVOTE:

Ask away, i have no quarrel explaining why

i think the concern was not the logic of 0veri11-me polarity, but rather the somewhat lining-up-lynches subtext which can be scummy.

[teacher]

Same here on the work aspect. It’s my lunch break and I have fat fingers on a small screen. See you tonight

[teacher]

Im online if people want to chat.

I think Im at the point where Id still rather 0verki11 over almost anything else, but my compromise pool is largely the bottom four of my reads from yesterday. I cant think of a single pro-town thing -verki11 has done - literally nothing game advancing which is saying something for someone with more games than me. That said, I will acknowledge that their only completed game on this site is a scum one and its very different (more active) than here. 0verki11 - mind linking a town game or two?

One thought I want to explore is how little analysis at all has been directed to Jonesy. I feel like Ive talked about them a bunch, but nobody else has - in a way that might be intentional. But this could be my misremembering. So thats part of my read right now as well.

[teacher]

I don't think the case itself is that far-fetched

random weird associational note - this came before the actual case was posted. It can make sense in context, but it is sticking with me a touch in rereading.

[teacher]

going against the grain with the read on Teacher.

As scum Jones wasn't very confrontational and much more likely to reinforce cases and other slots reads than bring his own opinions to the town.

So Im not so good when it comes to me personally, since I take things a bit personal, but I would not say that scum reading me is against the grain of play. Id say you and skitter may be the only ones who have me higher than null at best.

That said, the confrontational thing -- leading the push on me, and providing the momentum to the 0verki11 wagon, is what had moved him out of null for me prior to the reread.

[teacher]

If they were active I would get into it with them like I did with RCE

Im your counterwagon to 0verki11, and youve made repeated posts about why you scum me. Why havent you tried to "get into it" with me to sort me?

[teacher]

In post 25, 0verki11 wrote:
Why are you defending yourself against a RvS vote??

that didn't really feel defensive to me, more tongue-in-cheek

I agree with Skitter here. And its another slightly scummy thing 0verki11 does. I think this question is designed to get another defensive/survivalistic answer to perhaps build a frame case. Not very strong, but again sticking out to me this time through (for this as well as for the town effects Skitters' noticing and commenting has on my read of their slot).

[teacher]

i think naturalbreadcrumbs is kinda townie, from 30

(either that or partners with snowbeast)

=

It stuck out to me early and made me think breadcrumb/snow could be the team.

Hahahaha, the mindmeld is strong in this one.

[teacher]

this reasoning for the teacher vote is kinda +town to me

But this is your proposed alt wagon. Talk to me about why? IF RCE had joined, I would have by now too. And Im not closed to it. But out of the slots in my compromise pool, this is the one doing the most posting/analysis, and so the one I am least excited to get rid of D1.

[teacher]

If they were active I would get into it with them like I did with RCE

Im your counterwagon to 0verki11, and youve made repeated posts about why you scum me. Why havent you tried to "get into it" with me to sort me?

I may :p I’m just going to have to look at your other games to see your playstyle.

Sounds good. Im probably going to bed in an hour just FYI.

Id say model recent town is Mini Normal 2042 - it matches where I am in terms of availability nowadays versus the summer./most of my other games. Model scum is MiniNormal2016 - had more time in that era, but last time I rolled it.

[teacher]

intent to vote Teacher

Again, 16 games. WTF was this?

[teacher]

Yea, 0verki11 remains preferred lynch, followed by crumbs/snowy/Thespio in that order, but not with much gaps.

[teacher]

Any chance we can have a Monday deadline given Skitter's VLA and weekends generally? FWIW, that would make it eight days since all slots showed up. Thanks, and total understanding, either way.

[teacher]

Ah, misread in my haste. Im good either way as well. Enjoy your thing btw.

[teacher]

TY Plot.

[teacher]

Congrats crumbs! Im running out the door (or at least about to wake my kids up to do so), but you are second on my list largely for the same reason 0verki11 is first - just not seeing alot of pro-town in the ISO, and seeing a general blandness on many slots that scum want to preserve flexibility for future days. Even now I cant tell your thoughts on several slots.

W/r/t your question, My response to Thespio was mostly to encourage him to come mix it up after he meta'd me. I would find a 1v1 helpful in sorting him. I got scummy vibes from him-RCE, but I can definitely see town motivations for doing it.

[teacher]

its been a few hours...... (not intended as shade, more as a joke).

I am seeing definite survivalism in Thespio's burst of energy, but also some townpoints. Im reading back up but am around if anyone wants to chat. I should be more available today than normal (my wife is back and has taken the kids!)

[teacher]

(Question for the IC/SEs: It's okay to trust that someone talking about someone else's meta is always telling the truth right? Since that's supposed to be public record and all.)

no, they might think you wont' bother to check their work so just lie about it

like it's public record but that doesn't mean they're representing it accurately

Just wanted to add my IC-bound to be honest voice to this, and on meta generally. Meta is not reliable as an initial matter, because players (including me) try to consciously play against it. Then add the the fact that a cold read of a game lacks the atmospheric feel or gestalt - like how this game has felt slightly rudderless and a tad dragging since the 0verki11 wagon lost momentum, a reader wouldnt know that. Third, add the fact that different people reading the same text can interpret it differently, like RCE and me with the Thespio's D2 comment.

Dont take this as a knock on meta. I do it, and I rely on it. The person who one last year's prize for best scumhunter says its a valuable tool. But I think those caveats are important in determining what weight to give it. I do it to try to check if someone is playing a significantly different personality or is playing at a lower analysis level than they are capable of.

Finally to distill down to your question, run with Reagan - somewhat trust, but verify. If you are using "reported" meta information in your reads, make them at least show their work and provide a post or two so that you can see if you read it the same way (see the third point in the first graph). Sometimes players will say they have metaed people just for the effort towncred. I dont always do this myself, but if you arent sure what to do, this could be the best way to get AI info on two slots - the meta-er and the meta-ee.

[teacher]

your order of lynching is overkill/me/snow/thespio. Pardon me for being self-interested, but why am I right after overkill? Your case and RCE's case was on snow first, and you made the case for an overkill/snow team. I'm not too sure why I would be next after overkill.

This is actually meta, at least for snowy. It has been strengthened by the possibility that slot gets replaced and alot more sortable D2. I posted yesterday requesting a readslist pretty soon after this. Please post one, for all slots.

[teacher]

@Thespio, talk to me about why you have essentially the same number of posts in the last two days since you became a wagon as you did in the game before then.

[teacher]

You don’t think In a game with scarce mafia presence, where jones is flipping on convenience, even though they have an established meta of bussing then flipping because some other person gets picked out as ‘scummier’ is even similar?

OK, so I see this narrative trying to help you get the board off you back to 0verki11, but then take it an apply it a could days earlier -- Jonesy pushed me most of the day, and then flipped to 0verki11 because he was scummier.

Wouldnt the bus be the first thing, not the vote that provided serious momentum? Are you saying townreads cant evolve? This argument, which I liked on the initial read, doesnt hold up for me.

[teacher]

Here's my read on Teacher

I assume you meant Thespio.

Id actaully like to you have you read me please.

[teacher]

Here's my read on Teacher

I assume you meant Thespio.

Id actually like to you have you read me please.

Or Skitter TBH - I only see an aside on their intro.

My compromise pool remains the same. I would very much love for the wagon on 0verki11 to return, or to go to crumbs. I will go to Thespio tomorrow morning if the wagon hasnt moved to one I prefer. I will provide the hammer for just about any slot if needed to push a lynch through.

PEdit: Thx Jonesy. Have a good one.

[teacher]

His meta does fit

I am curious who benefits by discussion of earlier games more though, IYO who does that help?

Just to let you know Im evaluating you based on 2 of your prior games

@Thespio: Why the sudden burst of posting that was not happening when 0verki11 was the target? Do you think the second scum is also on your wagon or lurking? Any interest in joining me on 0verki11 or Crumbs as not being town advancing?

PEdit: Fair enough, and happy anniversary.

[teacher]

In case youre wondering why I dont want to go to Jones, its in part that the flip to Overki11 from me felt genuine, as did the flip to you. His thought pattern is consistent, and his activity levels have been consistent.

In case your wondering why I am defending you, its mostly the activity and meta. I see some similiar aspects to your town play, and I do see you posting reads and forcing people to react to your slot. Im very comfortable voting you if need be for the spoiled reasons, but would rather see 0verki11 or crumbs gone.

Spoiler: Thespio poss scum thoughts

Adding quick reactions not necessarily covered by Lcpl's case

VOTE: Jones because didn't use an emote

Very mild; already discussed.

similar views on arbitrary things

Early attempt to break up a townblock of RCE-me?

You are buddying him really hard though. Very interesting.

As has been pointed out several times, its an inaccurate observation. The strength of buddying was from my slot, not RCEs

Also he just posted, he ignored your req

This unplanned post during the 1v1 really struck me. Since the first half of Thespio's ISO is about me, and since at this point Im one of his two scumreads, the "unawareness" that I had in fact answered the question feels fake.

If they were active I would get into it with them like I did with RCE

Again, as previously observed, this is inconsistent with how he treated his scumread of me. Perhaps said as a way to back off a push they are getting scummed for, and turn it to a reason to get towncred? I just dont see why you wouldnt have mixed it up with me.

so either hes scum or teacher is, they are mutually exclusive in my mind at this point

if you flip green I’m leaning against teacher.

TMI Lining up lynches?

crumbs has posted enough for me to feel they are scum but I’ll try to read them before I get busyto see how I feel about it.

I want to speak on this a little bit -- why, given the spoilered stuff -- Im pushing 0verki11 or crumbs over Thespio. Its a lesson I learned a little later in my time on MS, but it makes sense to me. D1 and D2, you should of course try to scum hunt. But you should also get rid of town liabilities -- nullish folk that scum wont kill. Town liabilities should not make it to lylo because (1) they are an easy mislynch for scum to push and win the game, and (2) they havent been invested enough to have game-saving reads themselves. A discussion of this theory is here.

To be clear, I think 0verki11 is currently the scummiest player right now. But even though I think Thespio has done scummier things than crumbs, I favor crumbs' lynch because the scummier things are in part because Thespio has done more things generally. Crumbs hasnt done much and have flown below the radar on some charisma reads and not interacting with many slots.

[teacher]

Thespio never answered teacher's 4 questions. Even skitter, who joined after two replacements, managed to answer the questions; I'm pretty sure Thespio is the only one who didn't, and he was here since the beginning of the game. I thought it was worth mentioning, and I'm hoping that @teacher or @RCE can give their opinions on this (as they are the ones who used this tool in the beginning).

I noted it (it was why I wanted RCE to wait in addition to the skitter slot), but after it had been a while I figured it was a NAI personality aversion. One thing that I strongly differ from Thespio on is the utility of RVS and this sort of information. its some of the more unguarded time of the game, and so can be used to go back over once we have flip data.

[teacher]

At this point, and given the deadline, I think it is obvious we are lynching either 0verki11 or Thespio.

I think the wagons are functionally 3-3, with Jonesy on Thespio, and Thespio on 0verki11.

Since snowy and 0verki11 seem to be functionally dead slots, RCE holds the tiebreak that will make it 4-3. I will sheep to get us over the 5 border, and my sense is skitter will too. So I think its RCE's play at this point.

[teacher]

T

@Thespio: .... Do you think the second scum is also on your wagon or lurking?

You never answered this.

beyond the reason you flipped to me I do tr you

And then you go and post this, WITHOUT changing your vote, only to catch the error 10 minutes later.

I’m having actions following words issues rn.

[teacher]

VOTE: overkill

FYI, that’s L-1. We already have a claim just letting everyone know the hammer is in the air.

pedi: fair. And glad to see you knew it was hammer.

[teacher]

Pagetop

[teacher]

Crumby - reads please? Hope you had a good dinner.

[teacher]

No worries. Since you are about to die, if you are actually town at least leave a will.

[teacher]

are you asking for my read on you, or jones' read on me? if the former, i think you're town (i think you're fairly sortable on postcount; i did i *very* quick skim of your games earlier in the week and i noticed that your scumgames all tend to have a lower postcount than your towngames

I’m in bed and heading to sleep, but will comment briefly. I was asking Jonesy to read either me or you. But I appreciate and agree with your post count comment. Just FYI I realized that tell in my last scumgame (a place off-site) so I have upped it in my scumgame as well.

@skitter, unless you have concerns about getting online at all tomorrow morning, maybe leave the night for crumbs and 0verki11 to leave thoughts.

[teacher]

Thanks Jonesy. Sounds good. I have to read the walls - thanks to all for doing them!

[teacher]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo[/youtube]

[teacher]

Anyone want to teach me phpBB skills? fwiw, here is the link

[teacher]

snowbeast² has been prodded. They have (expired on 2018-12-10 03:15:00) to post before I start looking for a replacement because the timer runs slower on weekends.

When you flip can you confirm whether the timer will continue to run/snowy can stay in by pm?

[teacher]

In class. His suspicions were me early and then Thespis. He makes sense as a kill in terms of near uniform townread unlikely to be protected. The kill I think is too obvious for Thespio but that may be giving too much credit

Nice work Skitter. Keep it wrapped for a day or two and force all slots to give a two person lynch pool for associatives?

[teacher]

Snowy and Roo are my two. For those who don’t know me in a real real strong believer in one on wagon one off in a micro. And if crumbs was guilty I think I would have been the shot.

Notably I think the target also means that we are in a 2pr setup since it does suggest some fear of a save.

[teacher]

Dang it, I wish RCE hadnt posted the crumb. I did catch it but am on mobile and had forgotten about it until accessing my Google notes. FWIW, I caught it because I crumbed the same way - first letter of sentences - in my one town PR game on site. I can link if desired when not on a tiny screen.

Im not going to be online tonight because of the fac/staff holiday party here at school.

One thing I will note is that Snowy stayed offline for part of the night as well, necessitating Plot to post for a replacement n the queue but then elected to stay in the game. I actually took this circumstance to point towards scum, which is why my offwagon selection was snowy rather than crumbs, in addition to the fact I was not targeted.

@ crumbs I thought you would target me because I was the only person really pushing you yesterday, or at least pushing you over thespio.

[teacher]

But 428 is the scummiest thing Ive read in quite a bit.

[teacher]

The kill I think is too obvious for Thespio but that may be giving too much credit

Im offended.

I was saying I thought scum!you would likely not kill there as being too obvious. I was trying to give you credit, but saying it wasn't a lock.

[teacher]

this is like the first time i've ever gotten an investigative guilty, which i think is pretty cool

Congrats!

Did you crumb at all? Why did you decide to put; I would have thought this would be an easy enough push to place as lock scum and trust people to infer over the course of a day/tomorrow if need be even after you flipped at worst?

I have one more thought I want to sit on for a bit. I’m around but fairly drunk.

[teacher]

eacher - I don't know that you were pushing me that hard yesterday. Thespio's "crumb is def scum" post a little before we hammered overkill would, I think, kind of take precedence if I was scum.

@Roo - I post these walls because I don't have much of an opportunity to react in real time, and I think it's better than making a series of posts as I read through the threads anyways. Partially it's because usually people on forums have a rule of "no doubleposting" so people don't spam; I found it surprising when nobody here cared about that.

@Skitter and All - what skitter says is false. I don't know if skitter is (case 1) fakeclaiming like RCE was planning to, or (case 2) scum claiming to be cop, but skitter is not telling the truth. I'm not scum (if I can't make it any clear

1. Thespio wouldn’t make sense as a nk because he was lynch/mislynchable, certainly more so than me.

2. I have quintuple posted this game. People tend to prefer shorter posts even if in spurts, though I don’t always follow this rule (see skitter)

3. I see 0 chance this is a fake claim. Skitter would be wasting a townread spot to be the definite lynch at lylo if you flip green.

[teacher]

Ok, crumbs has posted without a counterclaim, so I can share part of my insight:

The scum play would have been to counterclaim as cop or JK, since either excludes cop. The fact that crumbs didn’t counter indicates to me that RCE is conf town, since they would know that play and have been online to put the suggestion into the scumthread after skitter claimed a guilty. No real surprise there.

More before hammer so please don’t.

[teacher]

Eh I still think the game is locked given the high number of strong town and you got a red check. Congrats and thanks.

My only debate that I want to evaluate when at a comp is snowy v roo. I can’t stress how unlikely it is for both scum to be off wagon D1, but I suppose it was an unusually low activity scum team either way.

Do more sober people think tracker should claim?

[teacher]

Now lets talk about why you think this game has a tracker

Don’t want to say. Can you play out the various setups and see if you think getting a tracker claim now rather than later would be a good idea?

[teacher]

So Im sober-ish and will talk about my tracker-claim theory. It is specific to this gamestate.

(IC aside - there is a general tracker claim theory in the Newb setup, which I dont like, but you can read about here.)

In this gamestate, I view Skitter's claim as overwhelmingly true. A cop can occur in any column of the setup. A cop can occur with a tracker only in column B, when scum cannot block it. But scum know whether or not we are in column C, where they could fake-claim tracker at lylo (here, given the gamestate, that would D4). Forcing the tracker out now can make it perform a consensus check tonight. The result is a conf town either way:

• A red check gets lynched D3, either ending the game or resulting in the lynch of the fakeclaimant on D4.
  
• A green check is conf!town on D3, narrowing the pool regardless the validity of the claimant.

Of course, any other PR should remain concealed. But forcing any tracker to claim now removes the possibility of column C scum fake claiming tracker D3 and providing a relatively useless greencheck on whomever they plan to kill rather than someone in the PoE pool.

All of that said, it may be water under the bridge because the size of the PoE pool is pretty small.

[teacher]

i.e., claiming now removes a useless D3 fake greencheck followed by a D4 fake redcheck. Instead, the board gets to steer tonight's check to where it will necessarily be useful.

[teacher]

but please confirm that this isnt as halfbaked as some of my other mechanical solves have been

[teacher]

Lets keep away from L-1 to prevent the self-hammer. I def think we force tracker claims now for all the reasons stated, but want additional confirmations.

[teacher]

I meant avoid L-1, not the thread.

early prod of snowy when it hits 24?

Anyone want to claim tracker?

[teacher]

As it’s been the three of us for a while should we just put the day out of its misery?

[teacher]

I think the "post it" would have to be here for that to make sense. Either way, y'all have a good week.

[teacher]

Well we have bagged one scum either way, and it’s always worth it to trade a pr for a scum.

[teacher]

To Santa Fe?

Let’s can the hammer and allow the replacement to post and try to townspew before they are lynched/mislynched tomorrow?

I haven’t done an actual reread of crumbs yet, but the control f for Thespio and roo in the iso was suggestive to me.

[teacher]

Start with crumbs being guilty, a place I think we all are. Search through their ISO to find partners.
Step 1 – Control-F to find mentions of the three people in my PoE pool - snowy, Roo, and Thespio

• snow! hits 53
  
• Thesp! hits 51
  
• Roo hits 26

I find this slightly clearing of Snowy, and slightly incriminatory towards Roo. Scum, especially newb!scum, tend to follow the strategy of mentioning their partner least, and trying to ignore them.

But then lets look at actual content of posts (what I hadn’t done before my earlier post). Im going to spoil the PbPA, but I think it points decently strongly against snow being the partner, despite the scummy exit. I will note that Snow’s level of play here seemed consistent with their limited meta.

The PBPA points mildly towards Thespio to me for the spoiled reasons.

Spoiler: crumby PbPA for partner

Taken out of order, into the order I view as most revelatory.

• 391-The EoD1 full-board readslist before the redcheck interestingly takes the playerlist out of order. It scumleans me, RCE, and snowy. It nulls Thespio and Roo. I find this slightly clearing of Snowy, as scum would want their partner in the middle. As between Thespio and Roo, it is harder on Roo (“position would be perfect for any scum”) than Thespio (Towncase “has a higher chance of being true”). Not strongly AI between the two, but slightly towards Thespio.
  
• 428The Start of D2 post that comes after a guilty, but before knowing who it is on. It discusses all three slots, but devotes significantly more attention to Thespio than either Roo or Snowy. The reasons it gives on Thespio contradict themselves in Case 3 – that the two people Jones suspected killed Jones to frame two other people?? Indeed, it includes Thespio in all circumstances and cases, but always as the least suspect slot in the list – bussing for towncred if the redcheck is on Thespio, I think, and to provide distance if on himself as well. That intuition is strengthened by Thespio’s own 425 and 426 – Providing a heavy scumread on crumbs for the first time after learning there is a redcheck out there.
  
• 308Here, for the first time, Crumbs engages on Thespio as the slot is coming under suspicion. They vote it as a surging wagon, while at the same time arguing “he would be best left to be read as a very active towny.” The post as a whole feels forced and a weird tone apologizing for the vote. I see this as a potential bus.
  
• 149Again directs attention to Roo and ignores Thespio.

The remaining posts listed here are reasons I don’t think the partner is snowy.

• 30-the first post, that mildly pushes against the early snow wagon. Cuts against my instinct from 391 above, in that this pressure not to build an early wagon could be a soft defense of a partner. But it also doesn’t defend that hard – it explicitly argues against building another wagon on a different slot.
  
• 34Second post, and third time calling attention to snow, and criticizing him. I think this is more early game attention on a partner than scum would want, and it doesn’t feel like distancing or bussing. Again, Im inclined not to think of the partner. In contrast, the error on Roo could be forced distancing – having suspicions about a slot that are disproved in order to create distance without providing substance for a wagon.
  
• 36 – Again, I don’t think scum asks for elaboration on an early case against their partner.
  
• 49 and 66 – The “copying” in 49 echoes RCE’s point, but 66’s rejection of snow’s explanation does not feel like a partner when their buddy is still the leading wagon. Notably, 66 also calls out Roo for lack of participation, while ignoring Thespio (see 149 in the first list)

[teacher]

Extensions may be granted if there are replacements.

Will the deadline freeze at some point pending snowy's replacement?

[teacher]

The PBPA points mildly towards Thespio to me for the spoiled reasons.

Honestly, I dont know. My gut says roo, but my head says you. Id pick you over roo, but its like 55-45.

[teacher]

I think that is the least likely of the three, but certainly not off the table. RCE and skitter are.

[teacher]

Ummmm, skitter?

[teacher]

In the same boat. Snow is the top contender for tomorrow's Lynch.

I get it, both of you. I probably wont give you my vote, but Im not going to be pushing back. For me, it is a question of looking back at Snowy's meta. That said, the rep-out, and the request to stay overnight, are both scummy.

What makes it so close between me and Thespio for you now?

Associatives and NKA. (1) Skitter and RCE are never scum; (2) I actually kinda doubt snowy is compared to his meta, especially given crumbs's ISO; (3) so Im left with you and Thespio. As between you and Thespio, its too close to really comment on. MY gut says Thespio is town. I havent had a strong gutping on you/dont feel like I know you so I think you are either monitoring yourself this game, or modulating scum.

At this point, I'm not sure exactly what redcheck means.

Cop saying you are guilty. Or a tracker finding movement when other PRs have been claimed. A PR guilty result. As for the rest, if you are town, keep spewing. Youre dying today no matter what, so providing any thoughts town!you has is helpful. I will certainly go back and reread them if I am surprised.

[teacher]

What makes it so close between me and Thespio for you now?

Associatives and NKA. (1) Skitter and RCE are never scum; (2) I actually kinda doubt snowy is compared to his meta, especially given crumbs's ISO; (3) so Im left with you and Thespio. As between you and Thespio, its too close to really comment on. MY gut says Thespio is town. I havent had a strong gutping on you/dont feel like I know you so I think you are either monitoring yourself this game, or modulating scum.

Also this:

• Thespio = 86 posts, 2d highest
  
• Roo = 33 posts, 3d lowest (to crumbs and a slot to be named later)

[teacher]

I’m going to post in about an hour. But yes I’m always on early am Us time so plan on putting my vote up in 10 hrs.

[teacher]

Im doing this skattershot style since my last post 24 hours ago.

428 actually made me feel like he was trying to set up a lynch on thespio, whereas he barely mentioned snow and kinda lumped him in the same category as roo for why we might want to look at either of them in a specific case (ie put the two of them in the same pool and make no attempt to try to identify which is scum - it feels like a throwaway - 'oh there might be scum in that group' without really committing to it; it feels like a safe place to stick a partner to me)

Again, I get you. And I would agree,

if there were not a known guilty

. With a know guilty, I think you have to commit to a bus. But in general I view this as a disagreement over strategy where neither one of us is "right"

my townread on teacher is weakening tho

Im just generically curious as to why. I feel like the game was slowly dying while we waited five days for snowy to be replaced, so I forced myself to put out content and thoughts. Im not sure that keeping the game moving, or anything in particular I said, could qualify as anti-town. Sure, a bunch of it was mechanical and LAMISTy, but it was all accurate, or at least checked out by you/RCE and nobody could show a flaw? Maybe its just a personality issue, but I felt like keeping posts coming was somewhat of an IC-obligation thing.

the way you've been interacting with me feels kinda organic tbh

I fully agree. I feel like the rep in validates my meta read of snowy as town. And if anybody doubts that as organic, Id encourage you to note my evolution D1, where I went off snowy and was pushing crumbs over them.

In 411 before we know skitter's guilty you point to me and Snowy. This is after on Day 1 in 344 you say that Overkill/Crumbs/Thespio is where you would lynch. Not naming Crumbs with me and Snowy here feels scummy, and a deviation from what you had been saying previously.

Thanks for giving me a chance to speak a bit as an IC. The key to being a good town player is always having thoughts, and ALWAYS RETHINKING them. Every bit of data should change your analysis. Like in 411, the last bit of data I have is that (a) snowy made a very belated request to stay, and (b) I was not the NK target, which I had assumed crumbs would do. Then I got more data - a crumbs guilty. The crumbs guilty means I go through their ISO and try to pick the partner. I dont think its Snowy.

Finally, I will admit that I am not a technical expert on the setups around here so this may be misguided. But your plan in 473 that a potential tracker should claim now doesn't exactly pass the smell test for me. If we are in setup B1 and Skitter is lynched tonight and the claimed tracker gets a not guilty, yes that narrows the pool but

just sets up the Tracker to be lynched N3,

so they only have 1 shot at finding scum number 2. So while yes, it would prevent a scum fake claim if we are in column C, not sure that reward is worth the risk like you think it is. Unless you were scum and wanted to assure yourself that the next two night kills would be both the power roles.

You are just wrong on this, which is why NONE of RCE/Skitter raised an issue with my proposal. The error lies in the bold. If the tracker dies N3, then their N2 target gets to be a conf!town at D4 lylo, increasing town's odds of victory (because it takes one mislynch off the table, and the most likely mislynch at that). Really, in column B, the better scumplay is to kill the conf!VT N3,

and leave the tracker alive

then claim the tracker is fakeclaiming during D4 LYLO. In column C, the scumplay is likewise to claim tracker and claim to have been left alive for this reason.

only 1 column has both and scum would know there’s a tracker. No cc means it’s crumbs imo but teachers actions lately seem susp.

Again, you may disagree with my tracker claim idea, but -- especially since there has been no claim -- youd have to work hard at explaining why it is scummy. Wouldnt scum!me know there was no tracker? But keep in mind what town!me might know, and why proposing a trackerclaim might make sense in that situation.

Also, knowing that our breaded friend is scum, I saw some association thingy going on when Roo reminded skitter that, if the scumteam had no influence on the gamestate at that point, breadcrumbs should be considered with that description along with what skitter suggested (overkill/snowy). It seems to me like easy distancing since he never said anything else about breadcrumbs at that point other than he had a null/town read on him.

This merits its own post, to be developed shortly.

I'm really paranoid about RCE and his fake cop crumbing, like it makes a lot of sense but it was risky af.

I get it, but I dont think scum!RCE outs this crumb. He just denies it was there, and says Im reading too much into it.

d flipping off pink before any posts to Roo and I seems scummy. Lining up votes and all.

Again, revisit all stances everytime you get new data. Though one of you and Roo is going to be embarrassed about the parroting game going on.

If I die in the night I think Teacher will make it clear tomorrow if someone reminds him of this page.

Youd be overconfident on this one. Or perhaps thinking Im still looking for something I am no longer looking for.

It doesn't really seem like Teacher was involved in combatting the check or prepping his partner to claim in response.

Yea, I really dont get where the sudden shade at my slot is coming from (at least from one of Roo/Thespio). If I was partners with crumby, I wouldnt have both hinted at and then outed his failure to claim.

If Crumbs flips green then Skitter lied about being cop. Why would flipping on Skitter be weird in that context?

You literally discussed doing the same thing. idk why he wouldn't approach you equally.

Theres faking a guilty, and then there is hardclaiming. Skitter at this point is hardclaimed. RCE coming out with a guilty and getting a flip would not be hardclaimed (and I would still have lynched him D3 absent some really compelling NK action, since I believe in lynch all liars). What I find pretty interesting, though, is this shade. I never said I wouldnt approach RCE the same way - and in fact I would approach them the same way. Why did you think I "wouldnt approach [RCE] equally"?

[teacher]

Also, knowing that our breaded friend is scum, I saw some association thingy going on when Roo reminded skitter that, if the scumteam had no influence on the gamestate at that point, breadcrumbs should be considered with that description along with what skitter suggested (overkill/snowy). It seems to me like easy distancing since he never said anything else about breadcrumbs at that point other than he had a null/town read on him.

This merits its own post, to be developed shortly.

This was a fantastic point, one worth echoing from a different perspective.

I ISOed crumbs and analyzed Roo/Thespio-related comments, but never did the reverse. Pinkball notes 220 in the quote above. But I feel like 261 also deserves some love. Here, 0verki11 has just shared its scumreads of me, Roo, and crumbs - in that order. Roo does NOT get defensive over being scumread, but does note the crumbs read? Seems quite odd of a reaction, especially since 0verki11's reads were over two posts.

Notably, that is the only other crumb's related comment in either ISO that isnt a null-town blah read prior to the guilty.

[teacher]

Oh and skitter, you do you. I think you live and get to be conf town regardless.

[teacher]

Thanks for giving me a chance to speak a bit as an IC. The key to being a good town player is always having thoughts, and ALWAYS RETHINKING them. Every bit of data should change your analysis. Like in 411, the last bit of data I have is that (a) snowy made a very belated request to stay, and (b) I was not the NK target, which I had assumed crumbs would do. Then I got more data - a crumbs guilty. The crumbs guilty means I go through their ISO and try to pick the partner. I dont think its Snowy.

Thanks for this bit of IC grandstanding. I understand that your thinking had changed, but I just found your explanations to be insufficient. I found your D2 posts to be vague on the why your thoughts had changed, which raised my suspicions of you.

What about 431 and 517 were “vague” and “insufficient”? I’ve been accused of many things, but failing to explain myself has never been one of them.

[teacher]

Thanks for giving me a chance to speak a bit as an IC. The key to being a good town player is always having thoughts, and ALWAYS RETHINKING them. Every bit of data should change your analysis. Like in 411, the last bit of data I have is that (a) snowy made a very belated request to stay, and (b) I was not the NK target, which I had assumed crumbs would do. Then I got more data - a crumbs guilty. The crumbs guilty means I go through their ISO and try to pick the partner. I dont think its Snowy.

Thanks for this bit of IC grandstanding. I understand that your thinking had changed, but I just found your explanations to be insufficient. I found your D2 posts to be vague on the why your thoughts had changed, which raised my suspicions of you.

What about 431 and 517 were “vague” and “insufficient”? I’ve been accused of many things, but failing to explain myself has never been one of them.

In 559 I am talking about how before we knew Crumbs was the guilty you dropped Crumbs from your suspects of who the guilty was. That is what I didn't think you explained fully.

431 b/c I wasn’t the nk. But I really don’t see how you can partner me with crumbs after I both plant and point out the failure to counterclaim (and then they claim neap pages later).

[teacher]

The key to being a good town player is always having thoughts, and ALWAYS RETHINKING them.

I understand that your thinking had changed, but I just found your explanations to be insufficient.

What about 431 [was] “vague” and “insufficient”?

before we knew Crumbs was the guilty you dropped Crumbs from your suspects of who the guilty was.

431 b/c I wasn’t the nk

You basing your read on the night kill is just not something I agree with, it feels flimsy to me.

I cannot tell you how strongly I feel about the one on-one off a D1 wagon. It has been true in every Newb game I have played so far, and is statistically valid in the sense that it is meaningfully more likely than 2-on (which in turn is much more likely than 2-off). So to me it was either crumbs OR snowy, crumbs AND snowy is vastly unlikely. So its also based on the D1 wagon, not just the N1 kill.

[teacher]

where do you think i should check?

I agree with Pink Ball's analysis. At this point

Skitter=town by claim
RCE=town by consensus
teacher=most attention getting slot

I think you have to sort me, and that makes it auto, even though it doesnt get a guilty. I think the best secondary option is Ballmeister themself. I think you let Thespio/Roo get sorted by lynches rather than investigations.

[teacher]

Hmm
VOTE: natural bread crumbs

L-1

To allow time for discussion, I will hammer in 4 hours, @7:40 NYC time.

[teacher]

Is this implying bread is innocent? The wording is iffy here.

I snipped the context, just because the quote wall was getting too crazy, but I read it differently:

"But Crumbs being absent from the game for long stretches makes me believe it’s likely he has been absent from the scum thread as well"

I actually saw this as TMI frustration from partnered scum suggesting that the team might have done better if Crumbs had checked into the PT every now and then -- i.e., not at all suggesting a greenflip in our future.

[teacher]

Why did you think I "wouldnt approach [RCE] equally"?

Also @Thespio.

Please answer skitter and my pending questions next time you are on.

[teacher]

your order of lynching is overkill/me/snow/thespio. Pardon me for being self-interested, but why am I right after overkill? Your case and RCE's case was on snow first, and you made the case for an overkill/snow team. I'm not too sure why I would be next after overkill.

This is actually meta, at least for snowy. It has been strengthened by the possibility that slot gets replaced and alot more sortable D2. I posted yesterday requesting a readslist pretty soon after this. Please post one, for all slots.

Also, I dont see this post coming from snow's partner, as it came before the two D1 wagons were locked.

[teacher]

VOTE: breadcrumbs hammertime.

[teacher]

Nice work RCE.

[teacher]

I am mobile posting on a lunch break, but I did hand very strongly of being a PR in my wall post. I wanted to attract any roll block her out there. It was where I responded to an RCE quote by saying that he may think I am looking for something I am no longer looking for. There was a second chrome in that same post to, something about what town!me might know.

Yea, this RCE gambit was fairly see through. I want to reread Crumbs again, but I don’t mind putting out my marker that roo is my preferred lunch for the day.

[teacher]

Yay fat fingers.

[teacher]

Hey, so the term ends today which is why Ive been kind of absent. I will be on tonight - in like 17 hours - to provide real analysis.

Town has 2 lynches. I think we should all case our ONE favorite lynch. I dont think we should share the pool because that helps the nk selection if we pick wrong.

I want to do my own casing. I have gut pings on Roo that havent subsided, but want to make an actual case which is why Im stalling.

[teacher]

And @Roo, if youre giving me the edge, make the case?

[teacher]

howdy y'all; Im around....

[teacher]

Started playing forum mafia regularly on a music message board a few years ago.

Link please.

[teacher]

1. What is your experience at Mafia

1) Was a theatre kid in high school, and this was a favorite game of ours when we would just be hanging out with nothing to do. Started playing forum mafia regularly on a music message board a few years ago. But alas, the game is almost nonexistent at this point. Heated games and certain players going over the line, plus overall board activity going down caused games to be hard to come by for a while. So I thought I'd venture over here and give it a whirl, this is game number 2 for me here.

Newb 1897 - post 73Was a theatre kid in high school, and this was a favorite game of ours when we would just be hanging out with nothing to do. Started playing forum mafia on a music message board a few years ago.

We would only have 1 game running at a time, and the players would come from the same pool of like 25 people. So even though the games were only 11 people,

the board was very active so we would get through them at a really great pace

. Also since we played so often,

a lot of long term knowledge of the other players

went into the game play which was fun.

But alas, the game is almost nonexistent at this point. Heated games and certain players going over the line, plus overall board activity going down has caused games to be hard to come by for a while. So I thought I'd venture over here and give it a whirl.

Obviously copy-pasted, but edited to remove meta comments suggesting Roo would have higher activity than he in fact has had. And than Roo in fact did as town in Newb 1897; he was much more aggressive in questioning Alonzo/Clemency/Trendall/Veridian than anything here. Here, it feels like Roo voteparked and didnt get aggressive in hunting until after it looked like the 0verki11 wagon was falling apart. Indeed, there, they were hunting multiple scum and providing multiple scumreads. Here, they didnt scumread anybody but known!town:

Skitter - town, came into the game with good analysis and seems interested in solving
BreadCrumbs - null/town - asked some questions, but devoid of any reads or new information
Snowbeast - just stated, eagerly waiting on info
Thespio - lean town, based on meta
Overkill - scum lean
RCEnigma - lean town, thought gave good answers to Thespio's push
LcplJones - null, nothing overtly suspicious but nothing jumps out at me as town
[teacher - on the fence, as stated in the material above the quote]

I view this as a pockety readslist that allows absolute flexibility. I also got a better sense of Roo's personality from reading the other game than anything in here, making me think he is guarding himself more than he ordinarily would. I also feel like Roo is flailing for a lylo setup here, with an unexplained evolution to the easiest lynch:

nothing in Breadcrumb’s iso really jumped out to me that the Snowy slot was his scum partner. So I would say I am still between Thespio and Teacher,

---Then Roo's 677 makes clear we are off the table for him, and so somehow Roo makes the survival switch

Okay I finished my reread of Breadcrumbs and to answer Teacher's request for each of our favorite lynches, I would say mine is now PinkBall.

Roo tried to explain this by pointing only to late snowy posts, but actually the early snowy posts are the ones that suggested a team, as skitter and RCE both noted.



I guess I will pressure for the meta links and a case on me with a vote.

PEDIT: removed the vote pending more metadiving. And I went to the first two bonnaroo's -- good taste!

[teacher]

Can you tell me a 9player-ish scum game and town game there?

[teacher]

And now this, knowing that Overkill was town, pings me a lot because of timing. Overkill made it to L-1 really fast so scum must have been excited: it seemed to be an organic wagon. But then people started to unvote him and votes went over other players like Thespio. My boy Roo over here seemed like "desperate" to get the wagon back on the rails (I used quotation marks 'cause desperate is a little harsh, but you know what I mean).

Also, knowing that our breaded friend is scum, I saw some association thingy going on when Roo reminded skitter that, if the scumteam had no influence on the gamestate at that point, breadcrumbs should be considered with that description along with what skitter suggested (overkill/snowy). It seems to me like easy distancing since he never said anything else about breadcrumbs at that point other than he had a null/town read on him.

If the scum team is Breadcrumbs and myself why would I be so desperate to stop a wagon going to Thespio?

Also, this may be confbiased at this point, but the desparation may be because overki11 FoSed crumbs, and a loss of an organic wagon could result in a new target if Thespio towntold under pressure.

[teacher]

Why did you think I "wouldnt approach [RCE] equally"?

Also @Thespio.

Please answer skitter and my pending questions next time you are on.

Did I miss the answers?

[teacher]

but I did hand very strongly of being a PR in my wall post. I wanted to attract any roll block her out there.

Neither here nor there, but RCE is right that I softed PR D2 just in case....

But keep in mind what town!me might know, and why proposing a trackerclaim might make sense in that situation.
. . .

If I die in the night I think Teacher will make it clear tomorrow if someone reminds him of this page.

Youd be overconfident on this one. Or perhaps thinking Im still looking for something I am no longer looking for.

At this point, though I agree we are in C, I do think a massclaim is in order. VT.

[teacher]

I do think a massclaim is in order. VT.

Do NOT massclaim. I didnt play out A1 fully. My bad.

[teacher]

Teacher, you ok?

Just sleep deprived. I appreciate it.

[teacher]

Bienvenidos amigos. Alguien aqui?

[teacher]

Yo tambien. Llegue a Cancun. Pienso que voy a ovejate ahora

[teacher]

I was slightly goofing around for language fun. It takes the noun form of sheep and adds the direct object you in the wrong place anyways.

@Roo no worries on not wanting to link past lives. .

[teacher]

Hmmm. Missed this page and now I have to decide what it means that Thespio is no longer a thunder god.

[teacher]

VOTE: Roo

[teacher]

We’ve got nearly three days and it’s the holidays so I would ask that neither of you pull the trigger before Roo can write a will.

[teacher]

Thespio was in 1897 and maybe could shed more light on this meta and if it plays in my favor or against.

Comment on this @Thespio?

UNVOTE: roo. Still totally fine w the lynch just think we have more time to get info JIC.

Also don’t think Roo accurately repped Pink’s pool, but in phone so not going to ISO and link.

[teacher]

VOTE: pinkball/vote]

Well played regardless. This vote and hammer mostly due to your pred.

[teacher]

VOTE: pinkball

[teacher]

Yea Thespio was conf town for me after D3. We’re you planning to frame him or me? Tbh, had RCE survived I might have suspected him of powerwolfing.

I was pretty open with my thoughts in game but am glad to comment on anything people have questions about. This was a pleasurable game and I hope to see many of you again.

[teacher]

By the way @RCE providing the third vote on crumbs was brilliant, though any failure of Pink to hammer would have been a scumclaim.

[teacher]

I agree. Tough slot to rep in to and a great hand at replacement. You made it a hard decision when before it had been a lock.

Mostly I want to check my meta read of Roo now that the confbias will be gone. I clearly was way off. My apologies sir.

[teacher]

Maybe. That’s why I asked. He said he was planning on changing Avis after mislynching you which is why I asked. But your post start of D3 took you off table for me though I didn’t say it.