newbie 1905: pictures from my phone (GAME OGRE !!!)

[foodcoats]

Hey everyone! Glad to be here. Just getting caught up on posts; I'll posts my thoughts ASAP.

[foodcoats]

... aaand it'll probably be tomorrow before I get to writing anything, since it's bedtime in my house. Please don't scumread me for it. I'm vanilla town.

[foodcoats]

... aaand it'll probably be tomorrow before I get to writing anything, since it's bedtime in my house. Please don't scumread me for it. I'm vanilla town.

Welcome, but you really shouldn't state your role, even as VT, as that helps scum to narrow down who the town power roles are...

The scum already know we're all town. How does my post help them decide I'm a PR?

[foodcoats]

So what's the consensus- is the L-2 a noob thing, a truly random RVS, or has scum decided to blitz D-1?

This was the first post to strike me as scummy. Vorkuta has the opportunity to provide analysis here, or to ignore the L-2 discussion and focus on something she/he feels is more worthwhile discussion, but gives a gentle stir to the pot instead. As a first post, I immediately lean scum on someone posting this way.

[foodcoats]

The vote wasn’t really needed here

IMHO without votes and pressure, nothing happens. Any and all inactivity benefits scum more than in benefits town.
Like- if we casually gave 1 vote here, one vote there, removed 1 vote here, we wouldn't get anything done by the deadline.

Follows up with a discussion of the most fundamental mechanics. Right, we need to lynch someone. Who should we lynch?

VOTE: Vorkuta

[foodcoats]

Alright I've been way too inactive this game so I'm going to get things going

I'm pretty sure that the worst is town. His general attitude seems pretty towny and I think that he actively attempting to further the goals of the town. I do agree that the use of probabilities can be scum approaching the game with an overly mechanistic mindset, but I believe in this case he is trying to use them to the maximum benefit of the town

As far as scum reads go, I am a little suspicious of both Vortuka and Yyotta. Yyotta seems abnormally defensive considering the votes on her were mainly random just to apply pressure. Vortuka seems overly agressive especially against the worst. I'm not sure what their opposition against the use of probabilities really means anything, but overall the bevavior of Vortuka seems overall extremely on the attack in a way I'm not sure really represents town play.

As a counterpoint, this is the kind of post I expect from town. InfernoDragon18 looks at a variety of factors that might affect who we decide to lynch and why.

That said, I specifically disagree about Yyotta on a gut vibe. I'll read Yyotta's ISO.

I would NOT lynch InfernoDragon18 as of this moment. Townlean.

[foodcoats]

VOTE: the worst beacuse hes the worst

UNVOTE: the worst
nah better not attract too much attention (will probably go horribly wrong)

wait it already went horribly wrong oh no

wait no im alright

I don't see this kind of activity chain coming from scum, unless Yyotta is very cleverly setting up to be a deep threat. I feel it's more likely Yyotta is tunneling on their own play as town. More or less neutral on YyottaCat at the moment.

Yyotta, who do you think we should lynch right now and why?

[foodcoats]

on that note It seems everyone so far is comfortable with random voting stage (rvs) where we basically vote players with very thin reasoning in order to try and spark some conversation!

VOTE: volxen
May as well kick off the tunnel right?

Yeah, might as well make this a repeat of Newbie 1888 where we tunneled each other all day long on day one. Fun times!

VOTE: The Worst

Hey volxen. Do you think there are any legitimate reasons to lynch The Worst at the moment? I'm going to read their ISO last since they've posted so much, so I'd appreciate any insight you've picked up already. I appreciate the kind of questions you are asking, but it seems so far you've only read Yyotta as null, which feels like an easy read.

[foodcoats]

wait it already went horribly wrong oh no

VOTE: NotAJumbleOfNumbers so that I don't get L-1

My head hurts from this and I can't tell if this is a newbie thing, scum self-preservation instinct, an intentional misplay to get a response out of people, or something in between. So I'll just call it a scumslip for the time being.

Agree the second post is odd and would still like to see a response to it, but the first quote is obviously a joke. That whole three set post you pulled that from was joking, trying to diffuse pressure. Whether it was planned/forced or not is another thing, but def made to look casual.

HEY, THAT’S ME!

NotAJumbleOfNumbers

TOWN-LEANING:

nonny, volxen, the worst

NEUTRAL:

InfernoDragon, Tine, PvtUrist, Vorkuta

SCUM-LEANING:

Yyotta

Talk to me about this scum lean please. You jumped to questioning the vote on her page 1 almost defensively and now have a scum lean on her. She's also voted you in that time frame. Please expand on the scum lean, I'm curious.

(I see 91, is there more?)

101 from Vorkuta feels agressive but overall the rest of his posts feel pretty casual, only slightly odd in that he said he felt like TW was poking him. Read the interaction at TvT for now.

Townleans on TW, Vorkuta
Still null for everyone else. Jumble is a big question mark I'd like to sort.

Hey nonny, I'm bad at clipping quotes, but I want to follow up on the piece I red-bolded. I think you have a good point here. I haven't read NAJOM's ISO yet, but I also don't see any reason someone would honestly take a scumlean on YyottaCat. Is there anything else you've found fishy about NAJOM?

[foodcoats]

but it's whatever, what's done is done. i'm liking your catch up so far.

You are too kind! The Worst, is there a way to do a double-ISO, to compare two players at once?

[foodcoats]

you betcha, check at the bottom of the page for the Display posts by user' option and click the [+] & [-] to the right:-

Nice, thanks!

[foodcoats]

I'm seeing that massive mistake I've made now. The initial response to Yyotta was bad, the follow up killed it. That playful response (x2) is about as close as how I'd personally act in real life, but I can definitely see how that comes across as suspicious.

Those playful posts made me a little suspicious but addressing it makes me less so.

You've spent time analyzing TW, Vorkuta and Yyotta (and yourself). What do you think of nonny? nonny seems the opposite of playful. Do you reckon that's more town or scum?

[foodcoats]

mechanical town

: the worst

strong town

: -

leaning town

: volxen, Yyotta, NotAJumbleOfNumbers

null-town

: nonny, InfernoDragon18

null

: Tinexkksi

null-scum

: PvtUrist

leaning scum

: Vorkuta

strong scum

: -

just for calibration & context; i'm about here, with my full reads.

You're very question-heavy, TW. I don't know how I read that yet, especially as it relates to your IC role.

Why do you lean town on volxen? I'm skeptical because volxen does read town but is a little too quiet. I like town to be more solve-oriented - which is what is leading me to question both of you, since you're both sort of reserved in a somewhat hidden way.

I'm null on NAJOM - literally can't even find a post I want to quote - and a little suspicious of nonny also, again because of being question-oriented.

[foodcoats]

Jumble might be trying to publicly non-scummy-ly kill (aka lynch) me

oops i mean
UNVOTE: jumble
idk how i messed that up

idk what im doing half the time

the worst, volxen, jumble

You no longer believe NAJOM is trying to wagon you? What changed your mind?

I'm legitimately curious because I'm struggling to read NAJOM.

[foodcoats]

his posts seem town-ish

and you are overloading me with questions

In that case what's your favourite animal and why?

Are you trying to buddy YyottaCat? Is it fair if I find this scummy?

How do you respond to the threat of infection post werebeast attack? I feel like how you respond to such a threat to your fortress will give insight into your town morality.

[foodcoats]

Hello foodcoats! While I do welcome you into this game, one thing struck me as odd in your opening posts. Why did you claim VT without any pressure to do such a thing?

Hi NAJOM. Perhaps this is a holdover from the meta where I played my first game (webdiplomacy.net), but I consider claiming VT to be NAI. That said, I stated it to deflect anyone from accusing me of active lurking because I appeared, said hello, and then offered an excuse for not posting reads/analysis.

I for the life of me cannot read anything from your posts so far. What do you think are the most telling scumslips we've seen so far?

[foodcoats]

I'm gonna hold off on voting for a bit.

@volxen, nonny, foodcoats - did you all get the same warm energy from {urist, vork, tw} that I did just now?

I'm glad to see there's been some more activity.

I'd really like to hear some substantive commentary from volxen, Jumble, YyottaCat and nonny

before I firm up my D1 reads, but despite that, I'd like to address TW's question with a review of the most recently active players: TW, Vorkuta, PvtUrist, and InfernoDragon18.

At the moment, I don't think the conversation so far has shifted my reads much, and from a strategic perspective,

my vote on Vorkuta is reinforced.

That's not to say I haven't thought about what they have written, and I don't believe I am tunneling Vorkuta. I was convinced enough by some of Vorkuta's posts to consider changing votes, and I actually think the InfernoDragon18 wagon is healthy because it will force ID18 to defend him/herself and give us more information.

But, that said:

Seriously- a third of infernodragon's (8) posts are basically fancy ways to call me scum, and the rest of his answers are noncommittal and vague.
Isn't that the exact type of player (quiet, doesn't draw any attention, jumps on an early/easy opportunity) who deserves more suspicion than I do?

This comment from Vorkuta is totally incorrect.

I don't think that InfernoDragon18 has been vague at all. ID18 has a high density of

commitment

in their posts. This is valuable to me as town because I can use it later to draw relationships between ID18 and other players, and their voting patterns. ID18 hasn't created many individual posts, but just look at how much information they give us in this single post (in response to PvtUrist):

I feel that we have a good pretty much confirmed town in TW (at least I really hope he is given he is my strongest town read) and we have a decent sized block of town-ish looking people, mainly Volxen and yourself. Of course, any of these town-ish people could be scum obviously, but I don't think they would make a good lynch for today in our current place

For me, the most scummy people at this moment are Vortuka and Yyotta, and Vortuka is far more scummy in my eyes given thier interactions with theworst and their general attacking nature. I think something that also makes me very suspicious of them is the fact they seem to be trying to make everyone doubt the conclusions they have reached. Sure, it makes plenty of sense for them to be attacking TW considering they are TW's #1 scum read, but they are doing this mainly through casting doubt on other people's conclusions rather than pointing out what TW is doing that could be scummy (exept the questions). Yyotta to me just seems defensive and isn't really fleshing out any of her reads. The only things she has actually said in terms of reads basically amount to "they are town because they are town".

If we compare the following quote, it shows how vastly differently Vorkuta is approaching the game from ID18. I'm only posting the last of Vorkuta's responses to PvtUrist, but I recommend everyone read all of post 248. To be fair: this post sounds intelligent, reasonable, and justified. I found myself agreeing with Vorkuta and was prepared to adjust my read on her/him. But when I take a step back,

I can't help but notice that Vorkuta has chosen to spend a lot of effort responding to PvtUrist in defensive, mechanical and statistical terms - and has still managed to avoid making significant,

committed

reads

. Vorkuta is, in my opinion,

remaining flexible

. Even if you don't believe this style is scummy, it is at the very least anti-town, because we will have difficulty going back and incriminating Vorkuta later on in the game due to how little opinion they've given us. We'll never be able to use the following post to draw relationships between Vorkuta and other players' alignments:

These questions... I swear answering all of these would be a scum tell because only scum would have to try and stay alive for so long. If I get lynched for not answering them then at least I can flip green and justify myself.
I'll indulge Urist just because it's a refreshing change of pace from dealing with IC!theworst

...

Finally, before the end of D1, (aside from accusing me as a filthy elf) what is the biggest thing you'd wish town to pay attention to, and why?

The Activity Overview because
-It shows that theworst has quadruple some player's posts and to urge other people to think about the extremes/both sides of the spectrum
-It shows that I spend half my game-time

defending

answering worst's inquiry
and most importantly
-It shows that several players have succeeded in hiding in the background and that town MUST shine the spotlight in their direction in order to have a chance of winning

In comparison, TW

attacked

Vorkuta, just as I am doing (TW's attack is several posts/pages long and the pressuring elements are relatively obvious, so I won't clip anything; if you require clarifying quotes, please ask me). This is pro-town activity, again because it will be useful information in the future.

If Vorkuta were to "flip green," as he/she has insisted they will several times, ID18, TW and myself would all fall under suspicion. But if TW were to be lynched and flip town, Vorkuta has written their posts in such a way as to claim they made a mistake.

I have also been thinking that PvtUrist makes some scummy moves, particularly in this post directed at Vorkuta:

Verkuta;

I'm having mixed feelings about you. While I along with presumeably most others have much suspicion on your actions, your posts otherwise have brought up a few points that I atleast partially agree with. I currently don't feel like the D1 lynch on you is the most correct choice as I feel like there are crucial information and/or posts missing that might otherwise prove your potential innocence. Though, the outcome would heavily depend on your response to the upcoming questions.

Are you Vanilla? If you do cannot or do not wish to say so, why?

Hypothetically, if everyone was L-1 and you were forced to make the hammer decision, who would you choose and why?

Finally, before the end of D1, (aside from accusing me as a filthy elf) what is the biggest thing you'd wish town to pay attention to, and why?[/i]

The thing I find scummy about this post is that it is not internally consistent.

The questions are good because they try to force Vorkuta to take a position; but that is not in line with the initial read that PvtUrist no longer believes Vorkuta is scum. If PvtUrist thinks Vorkuta is town, why are they attacking so hard? The strangeness of this interaction is reinforced by this:

In that case;

VOTE: InfernoDragon18 wagon time.

It doesn't help that I don't agree with Vorkuta's argument that ID18 deserves to be a wagon for scummy activity, but nonetheless, I see no clear logical path for PvtUrist to arrive at the decision to clear their suspicions of Vorkuta and thus apply pressure to ID18. There are inconsistencies in the way Urist is approaching the game. I don't want to get into a tunnel of circular reasoning, but

this feels like Urist coming to her/his scum partner's defense more than Urist being legitimately convinced of something.

I'm glad to see on a re-read of Urist's ISO that she/he never voted for TW, as that would be a major red flag.

@PvtUrist:

Do you really believe that Vorkuta's answers were good enough to (semi-)clear them? What makes you believe ID18 is scum?

@nonny, volxen, YyottaCat and Jumble:

What do you think of my argument? If you don't think Vorkuta is the best D1 lynch, who would you recommend we lynch instead? Is ID18 a legitimate wagon when they are (in my opinion) obviously pro-town in their activities?

@Vorkuta:

Do you think that Jumble might be a better example than ID18 of low post, low effort, non-committal reads?

[foodcoats]

Hey folks. I thought it would be worthwhile to address the two outstanding arguments against me. The first is that I defended ID18, which is being interpreted as buddying/pocketing or interaction between the scum team, and the second is Urist's ISO read.

Regarding my defense of ID18,

both ID18 and Urist questioned why I would defend ID18:

"Defend ID18 because reason x"

Speaking of,

why are you personally defending ID?

I'm sure he's more than capable in defending himself, provided he's of the correct allignment. If anything, it makes me question

your

motives, whatever they may be.

While (

foodcoats

) made good points regarding the content of Vorkuta's posts and their interactions with Urist, some of what they did seems slightly odd for what I previously thought was a town player. I'm not really sure why they chose to defend me. The only person on my wagon who is voting for me because they believe I am scum is Vorkuta, while Urist is just applying pressure.

As town, I believe it is just as important to identify town as it is to identify scum.

We don't know

either

team. By sharing our analyses or intuitions about who may be town, we can build trust within the town and work towards lynching the mafia. This isn't my idea; I took it from this article on the Mafia Universe University, on the concept of "Power Villaging:" https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... nstrman%29.

As a sub point, in reading town, I can't actually

know

who is town, and, obviously, the scum will try to impersonate town. So what I'm looking for right now is what I call "pro-town behaviour." Pro-town behaviour involves making committed reads and explaining thoughts about who is or is not scum and why. ID18 may not be the towniest one here (that's me lololol amirite amirite), and they may not be town at all, but they've acted in a pro-town way because if we mislynch, for example, Vorkuta, we can review ID18's arguments against Vorkuta and follow the voting trail to come up with new deductions and information.

Finally, if I were scum, I might try to pocket ID18 this way, but I assure you there is no world in which the scum team is foodcoats / ID18. That's the kind of play that would break a two-person scum team pretty fast. If I know anything, it's that I'm not that bad at strategy games.

Secondly:

I'll respond to a few of the comments in Urist's ISO. I've snipped from post 301 as required (identified by the ellipses, "...") for readability; if you think I skipped something that should have been discussed, please let me know. My responses are in lime green text in-line with the quote, because I don't want to fudge up the whole quote block by accident.

(Side note: I'm in the black and white standard forum template, so the bright colours like red and green help me to read. I noticed that TW shared a screenshot in a white and brown forum template. If my colours are total hot garbage for the way anyone is viewing the forum, please let me know. I know I write walls of text so I'm trying to make things more - not less! - readable.)

So I went through foodcoats (FC)' ISO and here's what I came up with.

...

Welcome, but you really shouldn't state your role, even as VT, as that helps scum to narrow down who the town power roles are...

The scum already know we're all town. How does my post help them decide I'm a PR?

"

The

scum

already know we're all town, and so do I.

" (notice the use of singular, rather than plural (scum vs scums)).

The plural of scum is scum. In case it comes up, the plural of mafia is mafia, and the plural of wolf is wolves.

So what's the consensus- is the L-2 a noob thing, a truly random RVS, or has scum decided to blitz D-1?

This was the first post to strike me as scummy. Vorkuta has the opportunity to provide analysis here, or to ignore the L-2 discussion and focus on something she/he feels is more worthwhile discussion, but gives a gentle stir to the pot instead. As a first post, I immediately lean scum on someone posting this way.

"This was the first post to strike me as an opportunity to paint someone else black and divert attention"

. Instead of "providing analysis" off of his own thoughts, he entertained the idea to promote further discussion before "analysis" was made. I'd believe flexible or passive, but hardly enough to call it scum-lean.

Perhaps I didn't write it as well as I could, but I do think there's a difference between Vorkuta's post and how I commented on it. Vorkuta asks a question, rather than commenting on the events in question. In fact, they are asking for someone else to provide analysis for them! My analysis is that Vorkuta dodges making meaningful contribution here. Vorkuta does not, him/herself, indicate what they think of the "L-2 affair."

The vote wasn’t really needed here

IMHO without votes and pressure, nothing happens. Any and all inactivity benefits scum more than in benefits town.
Like- if we casually gave 1 vote here, one vote there, removed 1 vote here, we wouldn't get anything done by the deadline.

Follows up with a discussion of the most fundamental mechanics. Right, we need to lynch someone. Who should we lynch?

VOTE: Vorkuta

"

Paint it Black #2

" I don't see any issues with Vorkuta's post here. Despite that, FC manages to find somehow find fault within and attempts the hammer wagon.

That's fair. And I am concerned that I've tunneled Vorkuta. I'll discuss in another post.

Alright I've been way too inactive this game so I'm going to get things going

I'm pretty sure that the worst is town. His general attitude seems pretty towny and I think that he actively attempting to further the goals of the town. I do agree that the use of probabilities can be scum approaching the game with an overly mechanistic mindset, but I believe in this case he is trying to use them to the maximum benefit of the town

As far as scum reads go, I am a little suspicious of both Vortuka and Yyotta. Yyotta seems abnormally defensive considering the votes on her were mainly random just to apply pressure. Vortuka seems overly agressive especially against the worst. I'm not sure what their opposition against the use of probabilities really means anything, but overall the bevavior of Vortuka seems overall extremely on the attack in a way I'm not sure really represents town play.

As a counterpoint, this is the kind of post I expect from town. InfernoDragon18 looks at a variety of factors that might affect who we decide to lynch and why.

That said, I specifically disagree about Yyotta on a gut vibe. I'll read Yyotta's ISO.

I would NOT lynch InfernoDragon18 as of this moment. Townlean.

Inferno repeats shit town already agrees on. Apparently that's enough to be town-lean, according to FC.

You are misreading and misrepresenting the quote you yourself clipped! I did not infer ID18 was town because they agreed with other people I read as town. I said, "

...this is the kind of post I expect from town. InfernoDragon18 looks at a variety of factors that might affect who we decide to lynch and why.

" That's why I read ID18 as town. I've already discussed my theory of pro-town behaviour. Even if it allows scum to blend in early, it condemns them later.

What I find strange in all this is that people seem to be inferring that cooperation is scummy.

This could well be true when cooperation isn't explained. I think a good example of this is when Urist jumps on voting for ID18. I believe Urist partially explained this above by indicating they don't want to hammer Vorkuta, but I think there are more likely scum candidates to pressure. But I think I've been pretty clear about my reads, and I think we have relatively good reasons to not lynch ID18. As town, we do not want to lynch other town. It'll undoubtedly happen, but ID18 has at least shown a willingness to play the game and cooperate with the other players, which can't be said for everyone on the player list. I need good town partners who can help me win the game.

(As town, Urist. Not a scumslip, old friend.)

[foodcoats]

Jumble I'd appreciate someone else taking a look at him and telling me what they think... ISO might also be a good start I think

Yeah, I've been thinking about Jumble. I saw your vote last night (east coast North America here) and mulled it over. Unlike nonny and volxen, Jumble does make appearances, but they aren't strong. The ISO read of Jumble is... difficult. I think the behaviour around the posts is more telling to me, which is why it's taken a while to become comfortable with what is going on in Jumble's activity. Basically, Jumble seems to strike fast and quick. There's nothing inherently wrong with their posts, except that I smell a little bit of the prod-avoider.

Also,

I don't know why Jumble hasn't voted since rescinding the vote on TW.

Jumble has read YyottaCat and Vorkuta on the scum spectrum, but hasn't yet placed a vote. Going back to Urist's decision to move off Vorkuta: I think Urist made a strategically wise decision there, considering that we have Jumble lurking, voteless. I'm actually reminded of the argument Vorkuta made about "quiet and opportunistic" players. I've clipped Jumble's reads below, but I'll put them in a spoiler, because they are hard to read on their own and I'm more looking at the pattern. My point is more to show that Jumble is making reads, but isn't committing to a vote. Why save the vote?

Spoiler:

TOWN-LEANING:

nonny, volxen, the worst

NEUTRAL:

InfernoDragon, Tine, PvtUrist, Vorkuta

SCUM-LEANING:

Yyotta

Talk to me about this scum lean please. You jumped to questioning the vote on her page 1 almost defensively and now have a scum lean on her. She's also voted you in that time frame. Please expand on the scum lean, I'm curious.
(I see 91, is there more?)

Okay, so I’ve noticed his general “I have no clue what I’m doing and every action I do is a scumread” type of theme around her posts; however, she’s noticed this and is trying to get help on it. Based on posts 121 and 122, I feel like she’s trying to read herself and keeps arriving at “scum-leaning” as a result. This does sound somewhat like a scum, but she might also just be a really paranoid town.

Hey Jumble, what did you think of my conversations with Urist & Vorkuta?

With Vorkuta: He seems to be a bit pushy at times. I doubt his towni-ness: he sounds like someone to keep track of.
With Pvt: He seems to not care too much about looking scum, as long as it’s a conversation starter. This could make reading him slightly harder. He does seem to be posting towny stuff though, particularly with the admittal of doing something wrong.
(Oh, and if I get anything wrong about your pronouns, feel free to correct.)

I for the life of me cannot read anything from your posts so far. What do you think are the most telling scumslips we've seen so far?

Vorkuta and his slight hostility towards other players.

But what I really don't like is Jumble's question about what the PRs should do:

Side note: What should the Town PRs do this night? I don’t think anyone’s brought up PRs at all, so I’m reminding everyone that they

do

exist.

Combined with more or less agreeing with the Vorkuta wagon and the active-lurking, town!Jumble looks like a PR and sets themself up to be NK'd. But I actually read this more as a scum post. The PRs, if they are not entirely clueless, most definitely have been thinking about what they will do in the night phase, nevermind that we are still days away from it. They don't need to be reminded. This reads to me as PR fishing, because the people with the most interesting responses are possible NK targets for scum!Jumble.

So, for what it's worth, if you're a PR, leverage TW's strategy post and don't respond to Jumble.

[foodcoats]

incidentally foodcoats, do you play on mafiauniverse regularly?

No, I signed up there and here after playing my first game on webdiplomacy.net. Diplomacy has been my main jam for a few years, and the webdippers always have a Mafia game going. I got a little burnt on Diplomacy and decided to jump in a Mafia game that was forming up, and it was a total blast. I feel like Diplomacy was the gateway game to something with EVEN MORE circular reasoning and conversation between players. Love it.

[foodcoats]

@Vorkuta

, thank you for taking the time to extensively respond to my attack.

(BTW, I'm not sure if that's how people refer to things generally in Mafia, but I think of most substantial posts as attacks and defenses, rounded out with shitposts and filler. I hope it doesn't sound overly aggressive.)

At the very least, you've earned "player points" from me: I appreciate that you're, y'know, playing. With no real fresh material from multiple players, I'm much less inclined to lynch you. If you are scum and you get through D1, at least we'll be having fun.

I have a few responses:

Look- I picked ID18 out from the blue as he had the lowest post count. I could've easily picked nonny or volxen (who also spent a few posts calling me scummy). I have no intention of actually following through with a lynch WITHOUT any new information. Hell- last game this happened to me and I voted purely to get someone to say more things I JUMPED OFF the wagon as soon as the guy hit L-1 to give him some breathing room.
TO reiterate- I'm not voting for ID18 because I think he's scum. I'm voting for him because he doesn't get a free pass with his 8 posts (a third of which were 'vork is scummy'), and I have absolutely no information on him. This argument ALSO applies to the others with lower post counts, but it applies MOST STRONGLY to ID18.

Okay, that's fair. I like this reasoning more and more, though it's more from the perspective of appreciating the game than solving the game. I'm trying not to tunnel on the lurkers because I realize stuff happens in real life, but at the very least we have quite a catalogue of Vorkuta material to review later on... and as such, I'm aligning more with you in terms of how we should play right now, by applying pressure to the lurkers.

...

But if TW were to be lynched and flip town, Vorkuta has written their posts in such a way as to claim they made a mistake.

-There's no way you guys would lynch such a player. The utility/questions he bring to town, coupled with your faith in him make him almost invulnerable during daytime.

I disagree. I've re-read TW's ISO several times, looking for a chink in the armour. TW could be a major deep threat. But you're right that, for now at least, TW has been able to not only direct (to some degree) the flow of conversation, but avoid suspicion insofar as they are the director. He is basically really, really good at appearing NAI in everything he says. I'm very open to hearing analysis of TW. I wish I had something worthwhile myself.

ID18 has a high density of commitment in their posts

Yeah I call ridiculous on that. Hell- he only has 8 posts. Let me pick through his ISO with a finetooth comb. Here's my interpretation of everything he's said so far.

Post 30- RVS
Post 98- 'Worst is town, vork is scummy, yotta made a wierd newbie play'
Post 103- non committal "IDK anything about JUMBLE, he's neutral"
Post 165- 'vork still scummy, let's vote vork to see what he flips'
Post 172- 'if vork flips green, worst might be scummy, but not too scummy'
Post 209- 'vork and yotta still kinda scummy (sorry was afk for a while)'
Post 213 & 215- 'Ok guys lets talk!'

I think you misunderstand me a little... ID18 has

established a position

. I don't think you have, yet. I think that establishing a position is pro-town,

even if

it may result in early mislynches. Not providing a position is thoroughly anti-town. I've discussed my theory of pro-town behaviour elsewhere so I won't repeat it unless someone wants me to go total sperg on it.

So, what I take away from all of this is, I still lean scum on Vorkuta, but I'm less inclined to lynch an active player. And town!Vorkuta would be a HUGE asset to us in future days.

[foodcoats]

And now that I know he comes from a diplomacy background I trust him even less.

LOL

[foodcoats]

VOTE: Jumble

I actually want to vote for volxen more, but I think I'll wait until tomorrow to try to wagon him purely for lurking (TW did also have a comment on volxen's meta which is a legit consideration). I think it will be useful to have volxen's insight; their posts have suggested they are clever. And, I believe this makes three votes on Jumble, which should be enough to make a sizzle.

Outside of voting strategy and in terms of my reading, I think I addressed my concerns about Jumble in the post above, responding to TW's request for an analysis of Jumble. Jumble is on point in a way that I do not think benefits the town. There's a very fine line between a player like Jumble and a player like ID18, I realize. I'd be happy to discuss it, because I think there is a difference.

For now, let's turn up the heat.

[foodcoats]

People who aren't playing this game: Y

y

ottaCat, InfernoDragon18, NotAJumbleOfNumbers

If I wasn’t playing this game, then I would’ve been replaced. There’s a difference between “not playing at all” and “playing minimalisticly”.

yeah, i just don't know what to post

via Imgflip Meme Generator

[foodcoats]

Jumble, how do you feel about the votes on you?

L-2 isn’t really that bad in my eyes. I’d only really get worried at L-1.

Humour us. What would you say if Yyotta voted for you right now?

[foodcoats]

People who aren't playing this game: Y

y

ottaCat, InfernoDragon18, NotAJumbleOfNumbers

If I wasn’t playing this game, then I would’ve been replaced. There’s a difference between “not playing at all” and “playing minimalisticly”.

Do you plan to evolve your play style over the course of the game to be more focused on scumhunting? Will you play a less minimalist game in future days and be more involved in catching scum and solving the game state?

[foodcoats]

I'd like to get discussion going on volxen.

(I wanted to post last night, but needed to ensure I understood the rules about outside game information first.) I wanted to draw attention to the fact that volxen has been active in other threads, has a very high average post count, and is very articulate. The way he posts in other game threads shows that he is very clever and really enjoys mafia. Despite that enthusiasm and confirmed presence on the site, he's now promised us - in our poor ickle noob game - to "post more later."

And he's done this twice.

What is really disapointing is, volxen came online last tonight to... update his reads from a week ago? Really? The game has evolved a lot since then. And I don't buy that a player of volxen's type cannot find the time, or doesn't have the mental wherewithal, to catch up on only 10 pages of forum text.

I've tried another fruitless ISO of his posts and have nothing concrete to share. As I mentioned above in one of my responses to Vorkuta, I have come around more to the Vorkuta philosophy that lurking players deserve greater scrutiny. I was averse to this idea at the beginning because, on D1 of my first game, I was one of the main proponents of a wagon that "lynched the lurker." They turned out to be town, and I was very upset with myself for not having brought a broader perspective to the game. But that game was 48 hour phases. This phase is literally 10 days long! In this format, and in a modern society where our schedules are usually defined by the flow of our weeks, lurking can only be justified by someone admitting they never had the time to play mafia in the first place.

But I don't think that's volxen's problem, because they have posted on this site every single day this week.

This means they are either lazy town, or scum. And with someone who appears to be smart and enthusiastic about mafia... I lean scum.

VOTE: volxen

@TW

, you've commented on volxen's meta previously. What do you think of my analysis above?

[foodcoats]

Don't be taking attention off of yourself FC

but otherwise I agree

leaning scum

: foodcoats

(Not releasing my teeth on you until there's a real good reason for me to do so. You know exactly why.)

I don't really care if you release your teeth, but I reflected on the fact that you had replied to my earlier post suggesting I replied too quickly, and thought that if I didn't respond here, you'd go down the WIFOM rabbit hole (

why didn't foodcoats respond quickly this time?

).

I don't have anything to add to my previous rebuttals. If I've shut down all criticism against me, isn't that because I've adequately responded and/or your original arguments were weak?

I think you read me as scum because I am, as I like to think of it, "building an agenda." I think my posts are pretty obviously trying to latch onto a good lynch target, and you are worried that I am making a lot of hard, fast reads because I want to drive town to a lynch. So it sounds like you your philosophy, the Urist philosophy as it were, is the opposite of the Vorkuta philosophy. Vorkuta thinks the scummiest players are the lurkers who are trying to get a free pass to day two; you are most concerned that I, as one of the more active players, am trying to take leadership of the town, and then lead them astray.

And I think that's perfectly justifiable. But that said, the reason I want to see more players play like me is because having an agenda on D1 makes it much easier to catch scum on, say, D3. That's why I still can't clear Vorkuta, despite agreeing with a lot of what they have said and also being steadfastly opposed to lynching Vorkuta today. Vorkuta hasn't said anything that would incriminate them later on.

But... *sigh*... that's the case with a lot of the players here.

[foodcoats]

I was putting together a list and realized that I really owe Vorkuta a re-read of InfernoDragon18. Vorkuta has brought me over to the dark side and consequently I will try to shine a light on the lurkers.

And wow, re-reading ID18 is tough - they have posted almost nothing! I decided not to do an ISO but instead to read every one of ID18's posts in context. I get a vibe from ID18's posts that suggests they are written very un-self-consciously. I think that struck me early on, and so I gulped down ID18's reads, satisfying myself that I would have evidence against them later if I thought they looked scummier in future days. On re-read, though, ID18 is either scum or super lazy town.

This post is literally just parroting TW, which suggests ID18 is unduly influenced by one player, or is too lazy to dredge up additional material or think in new directions:

Alright I've been way too inactive this game so I'm going to get things going

I'm pretty sure that the worst is town.

...

As far as scum reads go, I am a little suspicious of both Vortuka and Yyotta.

There's even a post a little later where ID18 basically parrots TW's opinion on using probability arguments. It's as if ID18 did an ISO of TW, pulled their ideas, and made a post to appear like an active scumhunter.

I also don't like that ID18 glides effortlessly into this set of reads despite starting with a vote on Jumble.

I get the whole RVS thing, but you need to follow up your random vote with pressure and questions or you don't get anything out of it. ID18 explains why in this post, but I just... this basically confirms that ID18 is either lazy, or just trying to fit in.

Welcome back ID18! how're you reading Jumbz atm?

I don't really have a read on them at the moment. They seem really null as I haven't seen anything particularly AI from them at the moment. The only reason my vote is on them at the moment is that is was part of RVS and I see no real point in unvoting or voting for someone else until I've decided who I think is the proper lynch or Jumble gets close enough to a hammer that I have to change my vote to make sure they are not hammered

The more I think on it, the more it seems like ID18 doesn't feel invested in

solving the game

.

ID18 spends some time discussing Vorkuta's scumminess, but I think I've established for myself that those reasons are no longer good enough, and ID18 basically just brings nonny and TW into the justification process anyway, so it's not like it actually brings new information to the table. For me, this continues to show a lack of initiative, which is definitely anti-town. This is probably the absolute worst post I've seen in the entire thread so far:

o7

what did you think of my commentary?

given that you have posted so much, can you be a little more specific?

I guess it competes with Yyotta saying they were too lazy to read my post? Whatever. Obviously, this game isn't for everyone, but if you aren't willing to read, you can't catch scum. Why is ID18 not motivated to catch scum? Why is ID18 satisfied leveraging other players' posts to reinforce a tunnel on Vorkuta?

Onto ID18's scum defense. I think scum are more likely to admit to looking scummy than town, so that's a mark against ID18 here. But what's more interesting is that I think ID18 basically concludes that there are multiple ways to look scummy. I'd then expect ID18 to look for different versions of scumminess wthin our game and come up with a new conclusion... but, they don't bother. They drive home the Vorkuta read!

Honestly, not at all surprised that there are multiple lynch votes on me. I haven't been active and that is pretty textbook for a new scum player. Now, this isn't my first game of mafia in a forum setting, its just my first game of Mafia on this site. Just to give you an idea of how scummy my town playstyle is, I've played 6 town games on the other site I play on and have been mislynched 5 times. I see that what I have done so far in this thread - "don't post much and post my observations/reads whenever I come in and then just leave" is pretty much right out of the lazy scum playbook, so I get why some of you might see it that way

However, I do want to draw your attention to everyone's responses...

...

Given my scum read on them, everything that Vorkuta has posted since the votes doesn't surprise me in the least. All it looks like to me is scum making the mistake of thinking "I got a wagon going on Person X, so I am going to be able to lynch Person X if I go all in on Person X." Vorkuta just seems like they are scrambling to make sure I am the lynch. If you think about it, I'm the perfect target for scum!Vorkuta:

I don't like this because ID18 still does not give us any new information. ID18 is tunneled on Vorkuta at this point. On the one hand, I agree with ID18 that Vorkuta feels kind of scummy.

But the bigger problem is that this conflicts with ID18's designation of their own play as scummy: Vorkuta is far from lurking, and is also not trying to wagon anyone; they are far more flexible than that.

I think what we can best conclude from ID18's post is that "anyone can be scum." So why not try to find someone new to analyze for scum-like traits? ID18 doesn't bother. Why wouldn't they try? They seem not to have the motivation.

ID18 praises Urist for their critical thinking, but does not seem to be employing this thinking themself. After this clip below, ID18 goes on to further tunnel Vorkuta.

To me (Urist's) post comes from a mindset of "what was this person trying to do here? Is this more useful for town or scum?" I think this mindset is critical and something that is hard to replicate with full effort when you are scum as you have very little incentive to do so. Early in the game, Urist also lined out the way they think about reading other players, and I think their analysis here plays right into that. By far the most towny thing they do here is putting themselves in a scum mindset and thinking about what they would have done in that position as scum, which is extremely important to identify scum once we have a flip. I don't really see any way that Urist would have the motivation to step out of whatever current role he has and just think about the angle everyone is coming at the game.

In conclusion, ID18 is, at best, lazy town. They have not evolved their position and have largely relied on parroting other players' opinions. They don't bring new information to our town, and they are tunneled on Vorkuta.

So, to ask a Urist question: is this more likely to be a scum agenda, or a town agenda? I don't love that the answer is, ID18 looks pretty scummy now...

[foodcoats]

Hey.
Wait a minute.
WAIT JUST ONE SECOND.
Where's your readlist bruh?

Ya beat me to it bruh.

As we're getting closer to deadline, I thought I'd provide a "lynch list." I don't want to write a complete TW-style reads list as the dynamic of the game still makes it very hard to read the whole player base, but I wanted to share who I would or wouldn't lynch at this point.

WOULD NOT LYNCH

:

the worst

,

PvtUrist

,

Vorkuta

. I have varying levels of town/scum reads on you all, but you're playing the game, so I want to keep you playing. I will actively oppose wagons on these players unless someone else breaks out of their shell and gives me reason to believe I'll have other allies in the future.

I DON'T CARE

:

nonny

. Would love to see more from you; your initial posts suggested you'd provide good input.

WOULD LYNCH

:

YyottaCat

,

Jumble

,

volxen

,

InfernoDragon18

. Active-not-active play. Not necessarily scum indicative, but not pro-town in my books. Hang 'em high.

[foodcoats]

Replying to Post#372 - So, shit I've already talked about (yes)

Do you mean this one-liner in your post that was focused on attacking me? I can't find anything else in your ISO.

Inferno repeats shit town already agrees on. Apparently that's enough to be town-lean, according to FC.

In fact, one of the things I earlier pointed out that was scummy about you is you jumped in with Vorkuta to vote ID18 without providing any of your own justification. What did you already talk about?

What was your goal in post #374?

[foodcoats]

@schadd_

Can we get a vote count and a time check?

[foodcoats]

Well, it seems like votes are all over the place, with 3 not even voting at all. This is a problem, because it takes 5 to lynch and with only 6 voting, it’s going to be hard to not end the day with a NL.

Wait... so we need an absolute majority? I thought that was for hammering. You're saying if everyone voted and the top contender had 3 votes, it's a no-lynch?

[foodcoats]

Oh, hi

Welcome, pinturicchio.

There's been some discussion about your predecessor's alignment. How do you feel about the wagon on you?

[foodcoats]

@Moderator "Chad "Big Lips" Schadd", agreeing for deadline extension here.

Please... please god no. This game is so absurdly long. We have 17 pages of DAY ONE TEXT. Whoever replaces nonny can catch up during the night phase. Or just modkill nonny.

[foodcoats]

Alright, so I did some analysis yesterday of some of the lurkers to try and get a better grasp on who they were.

volxen

I actually turned around my read of volxen. I know TW says not to read into absences and such, but I don't agree. As human beings, none of what we do is random - even if we don't understand the motivation. I noticed that volxen has two games on his wiki, one as town doctor and one as town cop, and he was active in the (completed/dead) thread of a game where he played as mafia. I didn't dig to figure out if he'd been in other games, but in theory, volxen may have drawn vanilla town here and as such not a felt a big commitment to the game. Some people are like that. I'm effectively saying that volxen is a "Timmy" as per the Magic: The Gathering player-type theory: he only wants to play the biggest roles. I'm backing this up with the fact that volxen was never actually inactive on this website, just inactive in our game.

As a result, I'm inclined not to lynch pinturicchio. (I'm also disinclined to do so because we have better targets. My original vote was just to stir some activity from volxen.)

UNVOTE: volxen UNVOTE: pinturicchio

YyottaCat

Yyotta has a completed micro under her belt. There's another game I want to draw on, but unfortunately it's live. Suffice to say: YyottaCat is a total wild card. Yyotta is basically destined to be lynched unless she changes her play style to be more... understandable to other players. If Yyotta is mafia, town is okay. If Yyotta is town, the unfortunate thing is that Yyotta is very unlikely to be an NK target; even if Yyotta is a PR, it's incredibly unlikely she'll be able to bring town along with her information. It would be hard to trust any hard claims she makes. But I guess we'd at least know her claims were true if she was lynched or NK'ed and flipped PR.

There's really no good option when it comes to someone who plays as ineffably as YyottaCat. The longer the game goes on, the more suspicious I am of her original scum-slip/not-slip, but I think it's on balance probably meaningless - just as everything else she says is. She's also received a lot of coaching already in this thread, and her refusal to change could be scum-indicative... but again, I think, on balance, it tells us nothing except that she is perhaps more of a social gamer.

Slight scum-read overall but would not feel great lynching her now.

Jumble

By far the most interesting dig. I jumped to their oldest game, Newbie 1866. Here's Jumble's ISO: viewtopic.php?t=76047&f=50&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

The thing that's interesting about Jumble here is that they actually make several aggressive comments, and also several that are just more active. Jumble has only made, by my reckoning, one aggressive post so far in this game (which I'll discuss more below). But for example, look at this clip from Jumble in 1866 (post #353): "

No, you're the one with the burden of proof. If you don't give a reason for your posts being of substance, then why should I believe you?

" This is totally behavioural analysis and I could be wrong, but... that is not the voice of Jumble I've heard in this game here! Posts number 343, 351, 246 and 145 all have a level of engagement that I don't see Jumble taking in our game. In 1866, Jumble flipped PR.

So, I think we should lynch Jumble, and here's some analysis of why I think that's the best option:

VOTE: the worst beacuse hes the worst

VOTE: YyottaCat even this early it’s little quick to put someone at L-2 (meaning two more votes and it’s a lynch, day is over). Did you know this would be the case when you voted?

Was voting for Yyotta

really

nessasary?

This is that aggressive post I've mentioned above. I've been confused about this since the very beginning. Why does Jumble become righteously indignant about this? In the conversations that follow, nonny seems pretty reasonable, and I read into this that scum!Jumble may be trying to shade nonny for an easy wagon.

Also, if we lynch Jumble and they flip scum, there's an easy lynch of YyottaCat.

Seems like everyone is doing an activelist right now; may as well throw in my own ideas.

MOST ACTIVE

TW/Vorkuta/Pvt (at this point they’re considered active enough to not need any further ranking)
Foodcoats (doesn’t have the best posting rate but compensates with more substance per post)
NotAJumbleOfNumbers (honestly, i haven’t been the most active all game)
Nonny (until you follow up on your promise, I’m not putting you any higher)
Yyotta (posts are confusing, hasn’t posted much substance)
Volxen (has the second lowest post count)
Inferno (has clearly posted the least all game and didn’t really bring anything new to the table)

LEAST ACTIVE

This post has the same problem that ID18's posts have. It's repetitious of what other players say. I also have to feel like Jumble may be reacting to the pressure they experienced when we started to wagon them, and is trying to compensate by posting a "reads list." The fact that Jumble is unable to supply their own original analysis or thoughts suggests they are just trying to go along and be under the radar. Under the Vorkuta Directive, this is a lynchable offense.

Well, it seems like votes are all over the place, with 3 not even voting at all. This is a problem, because it takes 5 to lynch and with only 6 voting, it’s going to be hard to not end the day with a NL. I (along with others who have suggested the same thing before) suggest that we should lynch the least active and least game-advancing players. Yes, I know I’m a bit on the lurky side too, but if you want to vote me, you can do that.

Jumble pushes to lynch here. Right after this post, they push ID18 (presumably knowing that Vorkuta and I scumread ID), and also throw themselves out as a lynch option. Again, I think there's a psychological thing where scum will say things like "I could be scum!" that townies just never say. I think they do it to try to defuse tension because they lack confidence in their own town-image and the simplest thing to appeal to is reverse psychology. They also slightly later jump on the volxen wagon with TW and I.

Also, I'm also not inherently inclined to lynch lurkers, even if we want to threaten them to generate activity. In general, I think mafia have higher stakes - they can't afford to die the way townies can - and so will, in fact, tend to lurk less; they'll prefer active-lurking, like we've seen Jumble do.

Jumble, how do you feel about the votes on you?

L-2 isn’t really that bad in my eyes. I’d only really get worried at L-1.

Humour us. What would you say if Yyotta voted for you right now?

An OH COME ON post, followed by an attempt to defend myself.

Obviously, I wanted to hear Jumble's defense. This is a super weak reply. Jumble was quite active during this line of questioning, but they put very little effort into the thread at this point to help solve the game. Slightly before or after this, they also make a point about how they aren't afraid of L-2, but I'm not sure if this is consistent with the original battle they had with nonny about putting people at L-2.

In comparison, nonny sums up why their move on Yyotta in a much townier way:

This isn’t yyortacat’s first game, saw that before I voted. Pretty sure he knew about lynch numbers before voting. So wanted to find out if there was motivation.

TW: not really concern as such, saw it as opprutunity to start learning about players, better than the RVS only. Also, the new players (2 of them apparently) may not know lynching rules and possibly had a quick lynch which is not great way to start a game with no info. Yes, could have pointed this out without the vote but would not have gotten nearly as much in return.

There's no easy lynch in my opinion, but I think Jumble is the best option.

VOTE: Jumble

[foodcoats]

-pushing for a modkill = making scum life easier
-trying to make it impossible for town to come to an informed conclusion regarding the 3 (of which 2 aren't even announced and we don't know if they'll appear in the remaining 2 days) replaced in slots

Ah, didn't notice ID18 is also being replaced. Wow.

I have to wonder if we'd have less dropouts if the game length wasn't a week long.

[foodcoats]

Welcome CheekyTeeky. Glad to have you! I've been in an echo chamber with Urist and Vorkuta for a few days now; we're like grumpy old men arguing Mets vs. Yankees or Star Trek vs. Star Wars or something. Suffice to say I don't have a lot more to add at this point, and I look forward to seeing what you and pintu (and the next sub - we still need one more I believe) think of the game.

And finally Yvotta: too scummy to be scum is a thing, and I've read Yvotta in other games where she acted the same, so I trust her feeling of "seems like I'm always a scumlean", but c'mon... We should solve that slot this day when there's not much at risk, 'cause believe me, if I were scum, she would be one of my townreads until LyLo/MyLo and lynch the hell out of her.

VOTE: YvottaCat

Pintu, I've considered this line of thought as well, but I'm not convinced it's a good enough reason to lynch Yyotta. I'd rather try to lynch scum, or lynch someone who feels actively anti-town, than lynch someone who just isn't useful to town.

[foodcoats]

UNVOTE: YyottaCat VOTE: NotAJumbleOfNumbers

Still no harsh evidence beyond basic hunches, bringing it up to L-2 to see if anything concrete comes up.

Scratch that. Team is Vorkuta and PvtUrist. More confident in PvtUrist but interactions make the most sense as SvS out of Jumble/Vorkuta/PvtUrist.

This is an easy mark to make because they represent a lion's share of posts.

Also, I think PvtUrist is unlikely to be scum. Urist is tunneling me like a maniac, angry that I've destroyed all their arguments that I'm scum and they are unable to bring any more against me, but still not giving up their vendetta. scum!Urist would be in a really bad spot when I flipped town and I get the impression scum!Urist would be clever enough to understand they couldn't tunnel a townie this hard.

[foodcoats]

Proper and serious (color-coded) readlist will come in a bit, once more content shows up (although you guys probably already know where I stand on most things)

Why do you keep promising this?

Thanks for bringing this back up Cheeky.

@Vorkuta

I leaned off my read on you earlier as I did appreciate your perspective that all the lurkers were possible scum and it was worth grilling them. But it's been a few days now and I don't think you've actually done anything that helps the rest of us actually understand your POE yet.

Give to us the

memes

reads.

[foodcoats]

foodcoats is currently townread for me
the worst is gone
nonny is gone
id18 is gone but that spot is scumlean
volxen is inactive

hope it's understandable

@YyottaCat

Can you please give us a bit of a breakdown of why you read me as town and why you read the ID18 slot as scum? This will help us understand your logic and clear you as town.

[foodcoats]

Where’s the pressure? It was page 1 and 1 vote. The response is interesting

Newbies still might be getting used to the game and a single vote may be enough to scare them in some cases.

WhiteKnighting scum?

This larger interaction between nonny (i.e. you/Cheeky) and Jumble regarding Yyotta is why I think the scum team might actually be Jumble and Yyotta. Yikes. It's one of the only really "telling" interactions in the game thus far.

I'd rather lynch Jumble first because if we isolate Yyotta she is unlikely to sway town away from lynching her.

[foodcoats]

I feel like you're making too many assumptions to clear Urist.

His entire ISO is slimy and he's tunneling you like newb scum. Do you think he believes your wagon is going through? Because that's a pretty safe spot for scum to sit looking active. If you don't flip then he doesn't look any worse does he?

Yeah, I might be. I've tried to avoid going OMGUS on PvtUrist because I'm so obviously town (amirite?) that their continued attack on me is absurd. I've been sitting on doing Urist's ISO for a while because I want to do in an unbiased manner.

[foodcoats]

Give to us the memes

Expanding brain/mind format works for you?

LOL. Give us that after a clear, concise reads list though.

[foodcoats]

Hey, we got a full roster again! Welcome, u r a person 2. I am a person also!

[foodcoats]

volxen / pinturrichio is the lead wagon right now!?!

Can someone explain to me what is actually scummy about that slot? I tried to turn up the heat on volxen to get some activity but I don't actually read a scum agenda there, other than pintu pushing hard to lynch Yyotta which I don't love. I believe Cheeky brought up some meta stuff but it's hard to weigh that without some in-game clues as well.

[foodcoats]

I had a vibe from nonny that they were town, never did an ISO because there was too little material, but with Cheeky subbing in I decided I should do one. Cheeky has kind of a stream-of-consciousness thing going that I tend to find difficult to read. I am inclined to fear Cheeky in the same way I fear TW: lots of questions that seem townie, but are potentially just good deep cover.

Ok so to be a bit more transparent - I am familiar with Volxen and I don't believe her posting in this game is in line with her town meta. Pint can be a bit of this and that but I'm also familiar with him. He isn't this LAMIST as town and his posting is much more nuanced and on point unlike his reads here in his waffly catch up post. If you want me to break down his posts I will but pretty sure that slot is scum.

I'm guilty of trying to do my own meta-reads, but as an early post from Cheeky this looks scummy. I think meta stuff is useful when making tough decisions, but quickly painting someone from their vibe can be risky. At the very least it's not an argument I'm inclined to listen to unless I need that last bit of convincing one way or another.

It was an OMGUS vote, of course it wasn’t going to be well supported. Again, it was just venting.

So tell me who you think is lynchable today?

This seems scummy. I've said elsewhere I think that town should be more concerned with who is scum, not who is lynchable. But this may just be to prod Jumble and get a reaction.

Now it's interesting that you (PvtUrist) ignore the way I've been sorting, all my content and instead rely on my read on you to hinge your read on me upon. It is not on me to sort myself for you, the onus is on you. Why does your read on me depend entirely on my read of you?

I agree with the tone here - I think Urist in general is tunneling a lot and is struggling to allow people's arguments to sway them. But this is actually why I think Urist is town. Although, as Cheeky said elsewhere, I might be allowing myself to think that the people in this game are much more skilled than they are. scum!Urist could think that sustained attack is the best way to get mislynches.

But in terms of what this says about Cheeky: I think her reaction is townie. She's annoyed that she put in work to do a read and Urist just ignores it. I think scum!Cheeky would try a new tack instead of sustaining the disagreement with Urist and standing by her previous post.

Ok I'm done irritating you all here are my actual reads...

The read list gives us a trail and lets us compare notes as town, so I like this.

I lean towards Cheeky being town.

[foodcoats]

On to URAP2. I originally read ID18 as town but had them re-evaluated to scum, based on discussing the issue with Vorkuta and a second take at their ISO. ID18 was parroting and wasn't evolving their reads.

URAP2 actually does not look much better...

Actually, let's table the discussion on YY.

Cheeky, a narrative

>Comes in to thread hot. Calls half the game scum in her first few posts, and throws shade on a couple of others.
>Doesn't provide reasoning, which is not a scumtell by itself
>Repeatedly calls into question the actions of Vortuka. This accounts for a large percentage of her posts but does not result in a vote at any point - including her most recent post in which she claims to prefer his lynch today.
>Attempts to control the course of the game during my entrance. Wants to talk about her topic of choice on her timetable. An active wolf attempts to steer the game, and a new player is a new variable that must be controlled for. Town, conversely, has a tendency to step back and absorb the new information.
>Further, when I pushed back against her aggression, she backed off. Such an aggressive town player will often (though not always) push harder in response. I don't expect scum voting and aiming to mislynch pin to push for a fight.

all pop psych, of course. But isn't that why we play?

I think this is the most substantial post by URAP2 and it seems mostly focused on diffusing Cheeky's attack. I do, however, like the arguments to read Cheeky as scum.

From a meta standpoint, friendliness should be town read (def not scum read at least) if for no other reason than as a quality of life improvement. That's a convo for another time.

URAP2's history so far is mostly filler posts like this, and I believe they are made up to bolster this notion URAP2 is trying to sell: I am friendly, therefore I am town. It's true that charisma is a great weapon in this game, but it's absolutely NAI. This sounds like an argument that is trying to gather up the allegiance of some of the more easily-convinced players. This goes along with URAP2's relatively high volume of banter, like asking about the weather. Perhaps I am a terrible person for scum-leaning on URAP2 for being polite and convivial, but I think it's more that there is

too much politeness

to be townie.

wait hold on are we saying that jumble got

> called scum
> claimed an omgus vote because they were frustrated their extra effort wasn't paying dividends
>completely avoids original reason they were being scumread to begin with

that's a smooth scum distraction and I would be jelly of such skills

This is the only other scum-read I really think URAP2 is clear on, but it's just agreeing with someone else's assessment. If I have any hope of being consistent, this is the same thing we were nailing ID18 for. It's funny that URAP2 says Jumble made a smooth scum distraction, because it seems like this post may be a smooth scum distraction.

I lean scum on URAP2 / ID18.

[foodcoats]

Just did a read of pin. Like I said I never really leaned scum on volxen, I just had difficulty trying to figure them out and was grasping for straws - this game was totally dead for a while.

Pint talk about your vote, it will help.

Yvotta disengaging any kind of interaction seems to come from scum. She's a wild card, but I've seen her as town being more confrontational. Also, I have a pretty solid townbloc right now, I think that by getting one more solid townread this game would be solved, but Yvotta is a hazard to that win by being LyLo material if we do get to that worst case scenario. I'm scumreading Vorkuta more than Yvotta, but as I said, we should solve that slot right now and not leave it 'till the end. And by solving I don't mean necessarily lynching her, but she needs to step up if she's actually town.

This sounds townie to me. I think scum are thinking more short term: they need to survive the day and get a mislynch. Town wants that more long-term view because they know a mislynch is basically inevitable and they want to be ready to deduce more from a mislynch when it happens. pin is more experienced I guess so they could be cleverly inserting the idea of solving into their posts, but this crops up in future posts too. pin is kind of taking a wide lens, trying to solve the whole game, that I think it is harder for scum to do.

Pint talk about your vote, it will help.

Yvotta disengaging any kind of interaction seems to come from scum. She's a wild card, but I've seen her as town being more confrontational. Also, I have a pretty solid townbloc right now, I think that by getting one more solid townread this game would be solved, but Yvotta is a hazard to that win by being LyLo material if we do get to that worst case scenario. I'm scumreading Vorkuta more than Yvotta, but as I said, we should solve that slot right now and not leave it 'till the end. And by solving I don't mean necessarily lynching her, but she needs to step up if she's actually town.

I mean like here you're hedgy as hell. "I think I've solved it but need to get rid of Yyotta as a hazard" "doesn't mean I want to lynch her" But you're voting her?? Why not vote the people you've PoE'd it down to if you're pretty confident on your town reads instead of advocating a policy lynch which in your logic will lead us to one less mislynch in future? You're going about it all wrong, If you were town you should be pushing people with high scum equity - not lylo liabilities D1.

No, you're misreping me badly. I said that with one more townread it would be solved, and obviously that's from my pov, I would have to convince everyone else in my townbloc that the rest of them are town too. So no, I don't think I've solved it, and also you're mixing two different things in one. You're just not reading what I say at all at this point. So voting her for pressure is not a fair way of voting? I always do that, and has always worked for me. And IN THAT SAME POST I explained that Yvotta HAS scum equity; you're just tunneling.

I actually really like this quote here. It reinforces my feeling that pin really is interested in solving. They are trying to lock together a bunch of pieces like a puzzle. That's a townie approach. I think you can contrast this directly to Vorkuta, who is getting a lot of scum reads because they are doing the direct opposite, constantly breaking the puzzle and flipping the table.

Pin - I'm going to call you Pin because I'm trying to build a rapport with you - anything in this game you want to make sure I don't miss?

I call myself Pin for short so that's ok.

I actually don't like doing this since I'm slanted to my own interpretations and don't want to influence your opinion by saying what you should and shouldn't look. Try to read as much as you can and after that hit me up

I think scum would be very tempted to take the opportunity here to bias URAP2's position. This makes me feel that pin is legitimately more interested in hearing what URAP2 has to say than in pushing their own agenda - which is in line with town, who don't have all the information and so need to hear a variety of perspectives to solve the game.

Pretty good town lean on pin.

[foodcoats]

Please show me what is between the lines
I don't understand why you made this post

FC

refers to lynches as scum if they're not justified/looking for scum.

Previously votes on Vorkuta, saying "we need someone to lynch" without a good reason

ninja'd

Yes Urist, my position has evolved over the course of the game.

Why hasn't yours? Is it because you already know who is town?

[foodcoats]

@TW

Since you seem to be online: If we do not get 5 votes, do we not lynch AT ALL? That's what Jumble said and that seems... incredibly exploitable for the scum.

[foodcoats]

VOTE: u r a person 2

Based on process of elimination, I think this may be one of the better votes. With two already on this wagon, I think it is better to park my vote here than my other main scum read, Jumble.

[foodcoats]

"Does the this post's content truly benefits town, or does it solely improves one's position?"

You tunneling me at the expense of any other consideration definitely does not benefit town.

Let's try another tack. Who do you think is scum with me?

[foodcoats]

inb4 Urist claims I am deflecting!

[foodcoats]

And one last thing: the magical thing to solve the game is a mechanic of the game that I didn't come up with. It's a fucking Nash equilibrium, a "proposed solution to a non-cooperative game". Basic strategy.

I think I've been ignoring something for a few days because I've been stuck in an echo chamber with Urist and Vorkuta.

Both Urist and Vorkuta are more or less arguing that the townier you are, the more likely it is you are scum. They have different approaches - Urist is attacking me almost uniquely, and Vorkuta is attacking everyone (except they're pretty soft on Urist). But they have the same focus: distrust and disunity.

Maybe they are the scum team after all. I'll need to do new ISOs on both and then bring their threads together and compare their interaction tonight after work.

[foodcoats]

I'd like to lynch U2 first with people keeping up with Vorkuta tomorrow.

Vorkuta convinced me off her/his wagon a few days ago on the argument of, more or less, "would scum act this scummy?" As aggravating as she/he is, the approach of Vorkuta so far is to call everyone scum... and I'm not sure that's scummy.

What convinces you about her/him?

[foodcoats]

foodcoats, i'm reading you as town. Please do me a solid at some point in the next day.

Assume I'm town, and read cheeky's argument for my lynch in that light. i'm getting railroaded here.

Thanks mate <3

same to you, duck

I will, I actually thought this was really townie - like if I'm going to die, town you should do this after my death... I tend to find town does this whereas mafia focus on not being killed:

also, if i am actually lynched today, throw out my reads on the worst and FC because they're sitting on prime scum seats on my wagon. decent bet one would be in the two

[foodcoats]

Also I think if you get lynched and flip town is Cheeky always bussing Vork?

[foodcoats]

As a side note I found it quote scummy when Urist backed off his scumread of me - his line of questionning was an obvious lead up to a jump on my wagon, the hesitation after heavy emphasis on my scummy actions is worse than jumping on with no reason. I also disliked how he was engaging with Pint - Pint tried to offer him an olive branch by giving him another thing to interact about - his other scum reads and Urist said the interrogation is on you. That kind of viewpoint seems heavily defensive and shuts down Urist having to contribute instead of subtly attacking like I've witnessed him do earlier.

I'll have to look at that. I get the feeling Urist is really afraid and paranoid and I don't know if that's more newb town or scummy.

[foodcoats]

I would say Cheeky is scum before Vor, sure, but I don't think either of them are scum before you here.

at the airport now, I'll be around for a little before I need to leave. Lucky we've got a minute before the deadline. Anyone want to jam?

If URAP2/ID18 is scum I think Vork is basically clear.

I wonder what our errant Cat and Jumble think.

[foodcoats]

@TW

How do you evaluate Urist's erratic behavior earlier? Do you think this level of paranoia is more likely town or scum?

[foodcoats]

I'm town regardless of his flip. Also I don't live tonight.

Why do you think you'll be NKed rather than players that are more widely townread?

[foodcoats]

Hopefully our swing voters weigh in. The two wagons are Cheeky and URAP2.

[foodcoats]

Vork / Urist can we get you on the URAP2/ID18 wagon? Look, you can even use this post to call me scum later.

Sorry URAP2 but my read was largely my own. Cheeky just happens to be headed the same way. There are other people I'd lynch but with 6 hours to go I can't get a Jumble wagon going.

[foodcoats]

fc what's your read on urist again?

They're crazy town I think.

[foodcoats]

Ok I'll lynch Vorkuta.

VOTE: Vorkuta

I'd be impressed if Vorkuta is scum here. I'm used to pretty low-effort scum in newbies.

What? This is super scummy, you're even excusing your vote. Where did this come from?

[foodcoats]

Maybe the right play is just Yyotta? She can be scum here. It's 50/50 and those may be our best odds.

[foodcoats]

Maybe the right play is just Yyotta? She can be scum here. It's 50/50 and those may be our best odds.

The timing of this - when Vorkuta started to get wagoned - is noteworthy down the line.

Sure, but maybe you didn't read The Struggles between Vork and I. Vork brought me over to the Dork Side. I had Vork pegged as scum from the moment I subbed into this game - like the rest of you. I think there's too much aggression in Vork for scum.

Or Vork pocketed me real good.

[foodcoats]

So yeah I don't like lynching Vork.

[foodcoats]

From our SEs: How good an argument is "2scum2b-scum"?

[foodcoats]

So yeah I don't like lynching Vork.

You felt the same about Urist right?

Yes. Alas. I would like for Urist to be NKed, though.

[foodcoats]

I think there's some small something to be said for the fact that both Jumble and Yyotta are lurking possibly even more than usual.

[foodcoats]

VOTE: PvtUrist



We need a wagon here and you didn't give me 1 Chest, 1 Weapon Rack, 1 Armour Stand and a Decent Dining Room.

[foodcoats]

From our SEs: How good an argument is "2scum2b-scum"?

I don't understand? Are you saying it's a bad argument to say "hey I noticed something weird about the timing of Foodcoats offer of a policy lynch, if vorkuta happens to flip later this could be useful"?

My apologies for not explaining. I am hesitant to lynch either of them because they are so scummy. Would scum be as scummy as these two? They are so obviously scummy. Am I giving them too much credit?

[foodcoats]

fc what's your read on urist again?

They're crazy town I think.

im confused right now

I can't imagine a scum player being so fixated on me. It would be too much of a tell if I got lynched. So, I think that Urist is town; but Urist is also slightly... frenetic. Crazy.

[foodcoats]

VOTE: PvtUrist



We need a wagon here and you didn't give me 1 Chest, 1 Weapon Rack, 1 Armour Stand and a Decent Dining Room.

THIS IS L-1 - QUICKHAMMERING IS A SCUM CLAIM

Urist you are free to claim. Anyone wanting to hammer needs to give intent and a time period before doing so. Thank you.

Are you joking? You can ONLY lynch if you have an absolute majority, but an absolute majority is also a "hammer?"

These are bad game rules.

[foodcoats]

Like they converged two game mechanics? Who designed this site? Absolutely terrible game design.

FWIW I've got a 48/24 staring on MU at 9 EST. No more "wall posts" from me here anymore, I think.

VOTE: u r a person 2 I don't think Urist is scum.

[foodcoats]

Foodcoats why are you jumping between Yyotta and U2 when youve complained about not getting a jumble wagon?

Because I've been drinking G&Ts and watching The Return of the King. Ugh. This is a terrible EOD. I need to do a POE.

[foodcoats]

NotAJumbleOfNumbers

: Scummy via lurking and a few little scummy interactions.

InfernoDragon18 / u r a person 2

: Too friendly. Too... goes-along-with.

foodcoats / Tinexkksi

: Totes scum amirite Urist.

YyottaCat

: Too disengaged to properly read, but based on reading her other games, she could be crap town.

Vorkuta

: I like Vork's style, even if it is scummy. I can't decide if the rebel thing is more towny or more scum, but I think it is, like, 70/30 in favour of town.

PvtUrist

: I just can't see scum tunneling me so hard. Probably paranoid / drunk town. Alas.

pinturicchio volxen (SE)

: Seems earnest, seems angry, seems town.

CheekyTeeky nonny (SE)

: nonny seemed town, Cheeky is harder to read but is willing to cast lightning bolts at multiple players trying to get reads, probably a wizard (town).

the worst (IC)

: 50/50, I really hate how the IC thing dilutes TW's posts and makes it harder to read them as either side of the equation.

Yeah I'll keep my vote on URAP2 for now I guess, unless a Jumble wagon forms. URAP2 and Jumble are my hottest takes.

[foodcoats]

It really sucks if we don't get a lynch though. Insert bro feels meme.

[foodcoats]

with 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. day 1 ends december 11th at 00:30 central US time; in 0 days, 19 hours, 14 minutes

Ah. The date is wrong. Well, I'm at least glad that my "absolving myself of responsibility" approach didn't screw over town.

[foodcoats]

8 p.m. EST is EOD... I guess?

[foodcoats]

I feel like you're making too many assumptions to clear Urist.

His entire ISO is slimy and he's tunneling you like newb scum. Do you think he believes your wagon is going through? Because that's a pretty safe spot for scum to sit looking active. If you don't flip then he doesn't look any worse does he?

Yeah, I might be. I've tried to avoid going OMGUS on PvtUrist because I'm so obviously town (amirite?) that their continued attack on me is absurd. I've been sitting on doing Urist's ISO for a while because I want to do in an unbiased manner.

Absurd? Because I'm the only one who doesn't see you as town and thus I am a threat to you? Your diplomat playstyle is showing.

"I've been sitting on doing Urist's ISO for a while because I want to do in an unbiased manner."

Let me translate that for you;

"I've been sitting on doing Urist's ISO for a while but I do not yet feel confident enough to take him out."

So what's changed? Do you have evidence that proves me scum? Or do you simply feel you've established your town position enough?

I think your reasoning is that I am acting too townie to be town. I don't think that's a very good reason to think I'm scum. (Ironically, I am using the same reasoning when I clear your scummy actions as more likely to be motivated from a town perspective.) I don't think you're a threat to me, because I think you are more likely to be town than scum.

I'm not clear on the second question. Certainly you haven't given me any more reason to believe you're town; if anything, the feel is slipping towards scum now. Cheeky did provide some compelling arguments that you might be bad at scum and that I've giving you too much credit. You seem more focused on disrupting the town than scumhunting. You've also said some things that I think are more likely to come from a scum perspective - from the perspective of someone who already knows all the alignments.

I am glad that multiple players currently believe I am town, yes. But my goal is to figure out other players' alignments, not establish my own.

[foodcoats]

... aaand it'll probably be tomorrow before I get to writing anything, since it's bedtime in my house. Please don't scumread me for it. I'm vanilla town.

Welcome, but you really shouldn't state your role, even as VT,

as that helps scum to narrow down who the town power roles are.

..

The scum already know we're all town. How does my post help them decide

I'm

a PR?

So you don't care your "town-slip" helps scum more than it helps town, why's that?

You care about what scum feels about you,

but not when they identify town PR?

Please do tell us why.

I find it very dishonest that you not only paraphrase other people's words to suit your narrative, but that you've moved on to making in-line edits of quotes. You should be able to make your arguments without propagandizing.

I don't believe claiming VT helps anyone. As I stated elsewhere, I think it is more or less an irrelevant statement. VT is the base model. Scum trying to PR hunt will be in WIFOM if they take this claim seriously.

It feels strange to me that you are still on this claim from my second post. Are you PR fishing?

[foodcoats]

If we do not get 5 votes, do we not lynch AT ALL? That's what Jumble said and that seems... incredibly exploitable for the scum.

Losing confidence are we? Prehaps you should've asked more questions that

gave actual results

rather than spending the entire time solidifying your own position.

I was definitely losing confidence that we can put together a voting bloc, yes.

You're correct that I focus more on analyzing than asking questions. But I think I've made dividends on that analysis. I have a decent set of alignment reads at this point, which I've arrived at by focusing on how everyone is playing and interacting with one another. Why is that scummy?

[foodcoats]

Who do you think is scum with me?

So you confirm that you're scum?

You're not that stupid, Urist.

[foodcoats]

I think I've been ignoring something for a few days because I've been stuck in an echo chamber with Urist and Vorkuta.

Both Urist and Vorkuta are more or less arguing that the townier you are, the more likely it is you are scum. They have different approaches - Urist is attacking me almost uniquely, and Vorkuta is attacking everyone (except they're pretty soft on Urist). But they have the same focus: distrust and disunity.

Maybe they are the scum team after all. I'll need to do new ISOs on both and then bring their threads together and compare their interaction tonight after work.

Attacking the most threatening players on you again aye? Shame on you for being so predictable, Mr Diplomat Foodcod <3 <# <#

And answer my fucking questions like a man. Explain that scum-slip while you're at it, pretty.

I've largely been ignoring you because you're not helping town to advance. At this point, though, you've made enough strange plays that I have to start putting myself into the scum!Urist perspective and ask myself (and others) if it makes sense.

[foodcoats]

Anyway Urist what do you make of FC not voting you here? Do you think that means your scumread on him is wrong?

"Flashback to FC placing me in L-1 and immediately placing it elsewhere when it wouldn't go through"

Uhh, no.

I find you so insufferable that I am okay with losing a townie to get rid of you.

As I've said elsewhere, I think you are acting anti-town so it's not like we lose much. I think your behaviour is devolving so much at this point that you're a wagon I'd get on.

And yes, the rules of this site are new to me. But I didn't like the feel of it once you were set to be hammered. I really dislike that the setup here is "always and only hammer." That's such a terrible game design it astonishes me.

[foodcoats]

VOTE: URAP2 I do not see what you're seeing wrt Jumble tbh but this is probably red

TW, I also tried to get a wagon going on Jumble. Why did you start a vote on URAP2 for voting town!Jumble but not on me?

[foodcoats]

From a meta standpoint, friendliness should be town read (def not scum read at least) if for no other reason than as a quality of life improvement. That's a convo for another time.

i was referring more to the confidence you were able to express in short order. Also, unless you're arguing that the scum team is precisely me and pin (who you think is town), what is my scum motivation for defending the top wagon upon entering? I think you've got yourself some evidence in search of a crime.

I feel bad airing this without reading your entrance but I think the scumteam might be you/Jumble

This is weird, later TW justifies a vote on URAP2 for their stance on Jumble and I didn't see this reconsidered in TW's ISO.

TW, you ask a lot of questions, you explain things to other people about their own reads, but I don't think you explained your POE here.

[foodcoats]

wait hold on are we saying that jumble got

> called scum
> claimed an omgus vote because they were frustrated their extra effort wasn't paying dividends
>completely avoids original reason they were being scumread to begin with

that's a smooth scum distraction and I would be jelly of such skills

TW are you justifying a URAP2 vote thinking they are bussing Jumble here? Your POE to get to URAP2 doesn't make sense.

I need to see why Cheeky voted URAP2 now. You're too nice to Cheeky. I did a complete ISO on URAP2 to follow on my ISO of ID18 to get to the vote on URAP2. I'm not convinced you did the same homework. It looks scummy that you picked up a weak thread to shade URAP2 and have a confused rationale about the scum team being URAP2/Jumble that looks like WIFOM. I don't know if town would make this mistake. It's the kind of mistake you might make when you already know where you want to end up.

[foodcoats]

U2 - Bad townread on entrance, buddies Pint who is lead wagon, avoids answering why he townreads pint, provides a readslist early, cases me with no objectivity in a way where his read is final, rather than interacting with me to discern my alignment. When I enticed him onto a Jumble wagon he flipflopped on his read on Jumble and then left. This feels overly self-conscious. Scum generally overthink their votes as they know it's a good trail for town to follow should they flip. No explanation for his other reads.

Inferno - His reads are the definition of going with consensus. It appears that this player is attempting to stay hidden by not rocking the boat in any way. I also dislike the nervousness he subconsciously spewed in a post and the multiple self-conscious apologies for his activity. Nothing solid to townread him for.
VOTE: Inferno

On first glance the U2 wagon may have been town!food, town!Cheeky, scum!TW.

[foodcoats]

Cheeky has too many theories and points of attack to be scum unless she is absolutely elite level.

The longer we play, the worse TW's ISO looks. TW says a lot of nothing. I think TW also might be trying to pocket Cheeky with all the compliments, though they've played together before I guess so maybe it's just politeness/friendship.

[foodcoats]

With the wagon on Urist I thought it would be worthwhile to pick through her/his posts a bit. I've said numerous times that I think Urist is town because their behaviour draws too much attention; I also think I would be prone to bias against Urist because I would prefer they weren't in this game (she/he is rude and abrasive), irrespective of alignment. Urist, you asked if I have found evidence that you are scummy. I'm going to try to work through some of the bits that I think are scummy and see what I come up with.

Urist is highly self-aware in several posts, for example below. I think this quote is definitely from a scum perspective. I don't think townies throw shade on themselves; they're too busy scumhunting.

Likewise, if I get D1 lynched, be it either as town or scum, it serves as something to be learnt that I may be messing up somewhere.

But yeah, looking through my past posts I wouldn't exactly call it completely townplay or trustworthy either.

This, though, is one of the posts that strikes me as being very townie. Urist is new to the game and I feel like she/he just read a strategy guide on how to be good at town, and these ideas have stuck with them. I don't think that scum would be thinking about this. However, it has to be balanced with just how self-aware Urist is.

Likewise it's very much possible for me to be overreading into something, the line of thought was quite simple.

1.

As town, how would this post benefit me? Along with it, what process/game am I playing into here? What am I currently afraid of?

and;

2.

As scum, how would this post benefit me? Along with it, what process/game am I playing into here? What am I currently afraid of?

into;

3.

Which allignment is seeming more likely/to be benefitted more, no matter through how much paranoia or subtlety?

This post, where Urist asks questions of Vorkuta, is super scummy. Especially when you look later on in Urist's ISO: Urist is obsessed with details. I think that kind of narrow thinking is scum-indicative. There is far too much noise and randomness in this game for the town to win on tiny details and "scum slips." I think the details can help make a final decision, but Urist is on Day 1 trying to sort scum based on tiny little inconsistencies that I think are entirely natural for town. I think this post may be a set-up where Urist is trying to get information to condemn people later.

Are you Vanilla? If you do cannot or do not wish to say so, why?

Hypothetically, if everyone was L-1 and you were forced to make the hammer decision, who would you choose and why?

Finally, before the end of D1, (aside from accusing me as a filthy elf) what is the biggest thing you'd wish town to pay attention to, and why?

This next post where Urist says I responded too quickly to their attack is really weird. Urist is far too certain I am scum and is far too aware of the right play as scum. Also, this whole thing about "being vulnerable" is really strange to me. Town is by nature vulnerable. This could again be something coming from that highly self-aware scum!Urist.

I personally would have let the questions hang for a little while, had I been in your position. Or at the very least, not completely shutting down all incoming arguments against you and immediately deflecting them elsewhere. If you cannot afford to show you are willing to be vulnerable, town cannot afford to believe you are not scum, and especially not as confirmed-town.

This post below is strange and a possible scum slip. Why would Urist claim we are definitely not the same alignment? Night has not passed so no PRs can have made investigations, and town doesn't know the alignments. scum!Urist may have forgotten that we still have absolutely no verifiable gamestate information yet.

Yes Urist, my position has evolved over the course of the game.

Why hasn't yours? Is it because you already know who is town?

I've been waiting for that.

I do not know for others, but I

definitely

know you are not one of my own.

This below is possibly the most interesting thing Urist has said. Urist has condemned me for defending myself against their attacks and has said it is scummy than I am trying to establish myself as town. Here, they are actively trying get people to list arguments against them, which he/she can then pick as apart, as is their style. Normally, I wouldn't really read into this - I think townies make inconsistent posts all the time because their position evolves over the game - but I think the timing is interesting. I think Urist is forced to pivot here because they are unwilling to let go of their attack on me as their primary game strategy; since they aren't playing ball with the rest of the town or town-seeming players, they have to try to get people to explain in detail why they are scum so they can fight back.

If you've spotted anything else that identifys me as scum,

please don't hesitate to point it out.

But I'm not willing to accept accusations and potential lynches without good reasons (no, being a short, drunk dumbass is not a good enough reason to prove them scum). I'm here to play Mafia to argue facts, not here to play Diplomacy or Housewives to act like polititians (again, feel free to disagree with me. I feel that my playstyle massively differs from the majority of the thread, and it's been my mistake as to failing to adjust my playstyle to it.)

Also, I'd love you all to not be

judging books solely by their cover

. If I'm insane, unhinged, abrasive, it does not automatically make everything I say false. Likewise, no matter how charasmatic or how much you believe in their innocence, it does not automatically make everything they say true.

I also think that there is a legitimate scum!Urist agenda to be considered

. Urist has not moved their vote on me for ages, despite putting up a little show of interrogating Cheeky and pin. I think that Urist intends to park it there precisely because I have been evaluated as town by multiple players and am unlikely to be lynched. They want to maintain a "rebel" image because they self-consciously think that's the best way to appear town: to be vulnerable, to be unafraid, to be different/special. Also, this keeps them from being in any way involved in a wagon that lynches town. It's highly likely one of our lynches, especially our D1 lynch, will be a townie. scum!Urist knows this and can sit on me in order to proclaim that I was the one who cemented whatever wagon goes through. And if we do hit scum, Urist will probably claim I bussed.

I'm no longer so sure that it is townie to be this tunnelled. If Urist really wanted to solve, they'd have tried new lines of attack - but their game is completely stale. If you compare how they've acted towards the other players, the attacks on Cheeky and pin are really weak in comparison to the sustained attack on me. Perhaps Urist is most interested in tearing me down because I was most interested in building up a reliable set of townies?

I still don't like how little content we have from Jumble and Yyotta as it inserts a massive blindspot into the game. But there's a wagon out there and little time left. From working through Urist's ISO, I'm down to 50/50 on them being scum.

VOTE: PvtUrist

Warning, I believe that is L-1.

[foodcoats]

First of all, the Urist at the begining of the game seemed much more polite and agreeable about people calling him scummy, but now his wagon is playing bad and should feel bad? Everyone has stated why they think you could be scum, disregarding and redirecting is a bad play.

I also noticed that but I think it's NAI. Urist is frustrated with something and their game has gotten a lot more bitter and angry. But that could be a town thing. If Urist is town and really thinks I am a scum pupper master, their frustration would be legit.

[foodcoats]

@FC- humor me.
Assuming someone hammers and urist flips green- you know we can't just ignore his tunneling at you, plus your post just now is essentially the nail in his coffin.
Even though another player might be doing the hammering, it's pretty much your post that kills him.
Plus as I've mentioned, the hammer will come from Jumble, Yyotta or teh_duck.
So what happens if he flips green?

Why are you threatening me for voting Urist along with several other players and a page of rationale?

[foodcoats]

TW is a very likely town and Yyotta too.

Why Yyotta?

[foodcoats]

@FC- humor me.
Assuming someone hammers and urist flips green- you know we can't just ignore his tunneling at you, plus your post just now is essentially the nail in his coffin.
Even though another player might be doing the hammering, it's pretty much your post that kills him.
Plus as I've mentioned, the hammer will come from Jumble, Yyotta or teh_duck.
So what happens if he flips green?

It also bothers me that you're using really bad logic here. Town make mislynches, it happens. But Urist has never advanced a quality argument against me. Have you been paying attention to my voting? To my reasoning? Why would you suddenly take stock of Urist's garbage attack on me just because they flip town? If Urist is town, Urist is bad town. If Urist flips town, it's a "teachable moment" for Urist. Don't be bad at town.

I need to re-ISO your interactions with Urist. This is the least incisive post I've seen from you almost all game and it comes in to defend Urist by way of a threat that you'll try to wagon me later. That's not like you.

How is your post meant to get me off Urist's wagon? Why would you even post this?

[foodcoats]

I keep forgetting this is a newbie game so I need to be more transparent.

PvtUrist claiming VT makes him seem less scummy. In a scenario where we run up scum D1 the optimal play is to claim a PR so they can trade 1 scum for 1 TPR.

Vorkuta's opportunitic shade throwing on foodcoats was gross.

You mean in order to get a counter-claim? That's a neat play but I would not have thought of that. We're new here Cheeky.

[foodcoats]

Foodcoats, I tunneled you because it's what I've always done. If somebody comes in and I get a bad feeling about them, no matter what those around think or urges to do, I almost always force a confrontation with them. Prehaps that makes me insecure or a coward, I accept that. I just simply couldn't sit by and accept somebody that takes control of things until I've personally cleared them.

I actually specifically answered all your questions this morning. Are you willing to comment on my answers?

[foodcoats]

im with pika. this slot has to go.

I don't know if they're genuine. I know scums give up, too. I don't know if it's more often than towns or less, but it happens

Yeah I think it's NAI. It's more a personal thing. Urist has specifically stated they don't like others being in control and so irrespective of their alignment, the idea of being killed out of the thread is probably repulsive to their ego.

[foodcoats]

I actually specifically answered all your questions this morning. Are you willing to comment on my answers?

Now that it no longer hurts you to do so, ofcourse you would

Nothing too much out of the ordinary. Defending yourself well while pointing out parts where I've messed up, just what I'd expect from the elusive

FC

.

Say

pintu

, had I not insulted you earlier, would you be acting any differently?

Actually, don't answer that. I know you would

So you still don't have any actual arguments against me? And you still don't want to look at any other players?

If you're town, my honest feedback for next time is to take a broader view of the game. You are not helping town with this approach to the game.

[foodcoats]

Long story short, there's been an uprising while you were gone and now scum has full control of the town

I wasn't playing nice with them so I'll most likely be the first to go (thb you'd probably also be voting me out if you've read the nonsense I was posting )

ninja'd

The longer Urist hangs around and shitposts the more I think they are trying to sway the vote off them with an emotional appeal.

I think townies that are set to be lynched usually take the opportunity to talk about the factors that are driving their lynch and suggest how town can act after they've been lynched and what specific clues town should look at in the voting pattern on them. That was actually what made me unhappy about my vote on URAP2: he responded to his potential lynching by sorting the clues.

[foodcoats]

I disagree with the quality argument bits. He's brought up (in my eyes) fairly decent points against you (phrased very drunkily), some of which you haven't answered to my liking.

Show me.

[foodcoats]

The longer Urist hangs around and shitposts the more I think they are trying to sway the vote off them with an emotional appeal.

I think townies that are set to be lynched usually take the opportunity to talk about the factors that are driving their lynch and suggest how town can act after they've been lynched and what specific clues town should look at in the voting pattern on them. That was actually what made me unhappy about my vote on URAP2: he responded to his potential lynching by sorting the clues.

And how exactly does my death benefit you again? (oh right)

So I ain't town because I ain't playing optimally? Dear, if anything, that's the

one

thing you should know about me.

You know what I'm after. As with specific clues, it's within the posts you folks ignored back there.

And no, I ain't self hammering. As dumb as I appear to me, I ain't allowing a lynch on a

confirmed town

yet.

VOTE: Jumble

Not quitting now eh? Interesting.

[foodcoats]

Urist how are you confirmed town?

[foodcoats]

VOTE: Jumble

My previous arguments are still valid and we need a lynch.

[foodcoats]

Jumble's at L-1, by the way. foodcoats, it's the second time you don't announce it

Sorry - I haven't been counting.

UNVOTE: Jumble

I need to think about this a little. There's something funny happening with Urist and Vork.

[foodcoats]

Can anyone tell me exactly when EOD is? Schadd's post says it ends at 12:30 a.m. CST December 11th, but that time is past.

[foodcoats]

Pintu, I scumread Jumble but I think I could be wrong on it. Have a read of scum!Jumble's ISO in the newbie game that just finished (skitter was the IC). What do you think?

TW, I had asked up above what your process was to arrive at a scumread on Jumble. There was a really weird set of posts by you jumping between URAP2 and Jumble. Can you break it down here?

[foodcoats]

im not playing with a ghost

if he's out he's out. if he's in he's in, but this can't be how things work

Alright I'm in. Sorry for wasting everbody's time. This won't happen again.

LOL.

[foodcoats]

VOTE: PvtUrist

[foodcoats]

Foodcoats why is URAP2 not a wagon and why do you prefer Urist at this point but not if he's replacing out? I'm not sure where your heads at and you're my favourite townread atm so that sux

I re-read Urist and I'm pretty confident in the way they reacted to their wagon that they are flailing scum.

[foodcoats]

There's obviously a huge gap in our knowledge owing to Yyotta and Jumble being absent, though.

[foodcoats]

Foodcoats why is URAP2 not a wagon and why do you prefer Urist at this point but not if he's replacing out? I'm not sure where your heads at and you're my favourite townread atm so that sux

I think URAP2 responded to their wagon as town would, and Urist responded as someone who doesn't want to get caught.

[foodcoats]

Let's see if Urist can explain

-why they were too tired to keep playing when they were a wagon, but have regained their energy now that others are pushing Jumble
-why they even scumread Jumble when they've spent the whole game reading me

[foodcoats]

@Urist

why do you scumread Jumble?

[foodcoats]

Foodcoats why is URAP2 not a wagon and why do you prefer Urist at this point but not if he's replacing out? I'm not sure where your heads at and you're my favourite townread atm so that sux

I think URAP2 responded to their wagon as town would, and Urist responded as someone who doesn't want to get caught.

How so? o:

URAP2 replied to their wagon with suggestions as to how town could proceed after their lynch that represented an evolution to his understanding of the game. He basically said, "Well, if I get lynched, you should sniff out foodcoats and the worst because they have a scummy spot on my wagon" - even though he was reading both of us as town. That's an interesting perspective.

The initial response that Urist made when they were put at L-1 sounded like an appeal to emotion. I found it very uncharacteristic for Urist. I think Urist made a huge gear switch because they didn't know how to build a counter-wagon - they've invested too much in scumreading me. They then claimed they needed to leave the game, but jumped back in when a wagon on Jumble began to re-form. Urist has also indicated they don't like others to be in "control." If we catch scum!Urist, that's a huge blow to Urist's ego. Urist obviously thinks they are smarter than everyone else; I think town!Urist would respond to their imminent lynching by pointing out how stupid everyone is, not by suddenly being nice to everyone.

Urist could still be town here. I'm interested to see what Urist says about the vote on Jumble. It is entirely contradictory to every read that Urist has made so far.

[foodcoats]

are you satisfied with URAP2's rep in and loltownread on you btw?

also could you throw me a summary of claims so far?

Not sure. I was on the URAP2 wagon before but it collapsed.

Urist has claimed VT, for what it's worth.

[foodcoats]

"your narrative is ill-conceived"
ah yes sorry my mistake, I speak to my townreads who I'm trying to solve the game with like that all the time.

I can't tell if you're diverging from your usual style because you're really invested in attacking URAP2 or scum!TW wants to mislynch URAP.

[foodcoats]

THIS GAME IS GETTING HOT.

[foodcoats]

I think Jumble is still a good scumread and could be a good lynch.

-Different style from other game as town
-Hasn't pressured anyone
-Weird interaction with nonny at the beginning of the game
-Throws shade at pin / URAP2's entrance but doesn't follow it up
-Doesn't try to catch up with the thread and disappears

The only thing that confuses me in their ISO is why they freaked out when Cheeky voted for them. They were already a wagon at that point, and I'm not sure what caused Jumble to have an outburst at Cheeky specifically.

[foodcoats]

That said... I think the right lynch / more likely to hit scum lynch is PvtUrist.

-Has not evolved their reads in any way
-Lots of weird scumslips in their posts where they take the position of "knowing" who is who, instead of the doubt usually expressed by town
-Ragequits when they get L-1'd
-Comes back when we focus back on Jumble

[foodcoats]

If we're conceding to a policy lynch= why jumble over yyotta?
At least he TRIES (with an AtE but still) to do the bare minimum.

From what I understand, the current defense of yyotta is
-there's no way scum can get to end game with that behavior
-there's no way she's scum, because she'd be coached
her ISO literally has only 1 bit of game advancing content (town lean on FC)

Yeah I tend to agree. It's basically easier for us to lynch Jumble because they've said slightly more.

[foodcoats]

That said... I think the right lynch / more likely to hit scum lynch is PvtUrist.

-Has not evolved their reads in any way
-Lots of weird scumslips in their posts where they take the position of "knowing" who is who, instead of the doubt usually expressed by town
-Ragequits when they get L-1'd
-Comes back when we focus back on Jumble

I want to add to this, it's really fishy that Urist hasn't been more active. Usually they're quite effusive. This is a little WIFOM but it's kind of in line with Urist being bad scum, they can't figure out how to start down a new path in a believable way. They completely side-stepped my responses to their questions, which they previously made a huge deal of. And now they haven't actually taken the game anywhere, just claimed they've always suspected Jumble.

[foodcoats]

can you explain this? why is pvt conftown

Him being on my cleared core!town list, plus his VT claim under L-1 pressure conf!towns him for me.
Which is hard because WHAT they say is at times anti-town, indefensible, and just bad in some cases...
But he's still town in my eyes, and I will not hammer, so get off the urist wagon UNLESS you're sure you can get teh_duck or the lurkers to hop on.

So everything Urist does is bad for town but they said they were town so they're town.

[foodcoats]

@Vorkuta

I'm reviewing your posts in game 1895, "Skinks:" viewtopic.php?f=50&t=77567

I realize that was your first game, and you were a replacement. But... what convinced you that you should totally change your town play? In that game you are cooperative, you make reads, you are more solvey. In this game here (pics from schadd's phone) you are being confrontational, divisive and ragey. You resist people attempting to solve the game and call them scummy for trying to solve.

What changed? How are you not scum here?

[foodcoats]

Not to mention town WON that game... it's like... you decided that your successful approach needed to change towards making way more aggro attacks?

[foodcoats]

Not the mod (and not impersonating), just stole his format.
Hopefully I don't miss anything

NotAJumbleOfNumbers (1):

, CheekyTeeky,

PvtUrist (3):

u r a person 2, foodcoats, pinturicchio

u r a person 2 (3):

the worst, PvtUrist, Vorkuta

pinturicchio (1):

NotAJumbleOfNumbers

not voting (1):

YyottaCat

Modding is hard.

Thank you for doing this Vork.

So for Jumble to be scum we have to assume they are not very good at it, right? Why is scum!Jumble not on a wagon?

[foodcoats]

This game is hard.

[foodcoats]

Cheeky do you think I'm tunneling Urist? Why is Urist not a good lynch right now?

[foodcoats]

Also why is claiming VT of any interest?

[foodcoats]

Actually sorry I remember Cheeky's earlier reasoning now.

[foodcoats]

The replace out thing was like a last attempt of survival, but I do agree that URAP2's reaction was bad too. The worst said it better.

I'm giving the intend to hammer after seeing some more live action right now. Not hammering without a claim, of course.

I finish work in a few minutes and will do a read and weigh in.

[foodcoats]

I re-read URAP2 and nothing really jumped out at me, so I'll summarize my feelings on the wagons that are out there...

URAP2

-I originally read ID18 as town, Vork got me to re-read them as scum, and my initial read of URAP2 was that he was very vague and coasting and probably scum.
-This is also kind of a good lynch from the perspective of the information we get. This slot has been analyzed to death and voted for from a lot of angles, so we can definitely learn something from URAP2's flip.

PvtUrist

-I read Urist as town for a long time but when I eventually re-read them they say a lot of things that are from a scum perspective. Urist has a lot of subtle scumslips.
-I think it's very fishy that Urist threw in the towel on the game when they were lead wagon and then came back and moved off me for the first time in ages, without really explaining rationale for their new vote. Their silence speaks volumes in my opinion. (I know it's a totally different time in Austrialia now, but they were online for a while posting in the lobby when I was driving questions at them.)
-If Urist flipped scum we could basically straight hammer Vorkuta; if they flip town we get very little information, other than perhaps implicating me as scum.

Jumble

-I think we can read scum Jumble but with so little detail from Jumble so far this game we don't get anything out of it if there's a misynch.

In conclusion I think I'd still like to see if the Urist lynch can happen.

They acted really scummy today. Jumble kind of acted the same way but they acted more like a defeated townie I think. Urist totally flailed when they were the wagon and their behaviour just looks so scummy to me. And URAP2 responded to their earlier wagon in a townie way, although now they definitely feel like scum grasping at straws.

If not Urist, I will move to URAP2 - there's a lot of info to be had from that lynch.

[foodcoats]

VOTE: PvtUrist

Can't remember if I actually made this vote or not...

[foodcoats]

From a meta standpoint, friendliness should be town read (def not scum read at least) if for no other reason than as a quality of life improvement. That's a convo for another time.

i was referring more to the confidence you were able to express in short order. Also, unless you're arguing that the scum team is precisely me and pin (who you think is town), what is my scum motivation for defending the top wagon upon entering? I think you've got yourself some evidence in search of a crime.

I feel bad airing this without reading your entrance but I think the scumteam might be you/Jumble

This is weird, later TW justifies a vote on URAP2 for their stance on Jumble and I didn't see this reconsidered in TW's ISO.

TW, you ask a lot of questions, you explain things to other people about their own reads, but I don't think you explained your POE here.

I want to repost this because I think TW is super blendy and possibly scum. I know that town can be inconsistent because they have imperfect information but there was something really off about the way that TW moved onto URAP2 via Jumble which seemed to conflict with their own reasoning.

[foodcoats]

URAP2 how much mafia have you played? Are you an alt? You seem knowledgeable despite registering two days ago.

[foodcoats]

FC if TW was blending he wouldn't have derailed the Urist wagon right?

Not if it's his partner.

[foodcoats]

I know we'll never lynch TW today but I think TW needs some scrutiny, they've gotten almost none.

[foodcoats]

UNVOTE: what are people's thoughts on Vorkuta?

Vorkuta is quite subtle, I like him/her.

I don't like Vork saying Urist is confirmed town because they claimed to prevent being lynched when my own VT claim has been used to shade me.

[foodcoats]

Vork has not tried to lead a wagon or made very many strong reads, which is why I've never lost my suspicion of her/him.

[foodcoats]

Yyotta and Jumble please come and play.

[foodcoats]

Anyone wanna engage w my meta issues with Jumble? Especially pint..?

Was it Canines you were referencing where Jumble was Jailkeeper?

[foodcoats]

Anyone wanna engage w my meta issues with Jumble? Especially pint..?

Was it Canines you were referencing where Jumble was Jailkeeper?

Yes, that's it

Well I agree, Jumble was way more actively town there.

[foodcoats]

VOTE: Jumble

Not getting urist am i... oh well I'm probably wrong anyway.

If jumble flips mafia i think yyotta is the other one. If they're town i don't know what i think.

[foodcoats]

Can you link Jumble 's scum game?

[foodcoats]

Wow TW... only my second game of mafia but you know... the scum get a night kill? Why would you want our PRs to claim? This is super scum play.

[foodcoats]

And why did you suddenly reverse direction on Urist?

[foodcoats]

VOTE: the worst

[foodcoats]

Everyone should lynch the worst, this is super scummy at EOD. Town does not benefit from PR claims on day 1.

[foodcoats]

VOTE: the worst

Cheeky and pin, I am especially interested to get your feedback here as SEs.

I do not believe town!TW ever pushes both wagons to claim on D1. Whether or not Jumble/URAP is/not a PR, any claiming is 100% suboptimal play for town on D1. Consider:

1. Jumble/URAP is a PR and claims. We lynch someone else and the Mafia NKs the claimant.
2. Jumble/URAP is scum and claims PR. This draws a counter-claim from the real PR and they are NKed.

I think that scum!TW is likely to try the claim play in scenario 1 to get a good NK. I think town!TW would NEVER attempt the claim play in scenario 2. town!TW would consider that these claims are useless D1 in general and we are better off risking lynching a PR and hoping we get PR information with more robust, multi-faceted claims (e.g. Tracker or Cop claim with results on a target) that at least give us more information to move ahead our solving on D2.

For example, in 1250 (quoted below), TW is clearly writing this from the scum perspective. town!TW would consider the full scope of what it means to force a PR to claim, e.g. what the mafia can do with that information overnight.

what's your suggestion, we just hammer an unclaimed slot? it's {jumble, urap2} here imo. What's the alternative?

The only possible scenario where town!TW may make this move is if they are the Doctor and Doctor!TW believes they can defend the claimant. However, I don't believe TW is unsophisticated enough in his reasoning not to consider a) the possibility of the Mafia Roleblocker; and b) the ability of the Mafia to skillfully dissect the PR combos, town!TW's motivations and identify town!TW as the likely Doctor and NK him instead.

I think TW is always scum in this position and should be lynched today. I think this is supported by TW's blendy ISO and also by TW waffling near the end on Jumble's wagon, to provide cover when Jumble flipped town.

[foodcoats]

EBWOP: Cheeky is dead. Long live Cheeky.

[foodcoats]

Nice dodge.

[foodcoats]

Explain the benefits to town of D1 claims.

[foodcoats]

I did on day one - avoiding lynching an unclaimed TPR slot. I wanted urap2 lynched, and the mob wanted Jumble lynched (albeit I wasn't sold on him being town either)

I do not believe town!TW ever pushes both wagons to claim on D1. Whether or not Jumble/URAP is/not a PR, any claiming is 100% suboptimal play for town on D1. Consider:

1. Jumble/URAP is a PR and claims. We lynch someone else and the Mafia NKs the claimant.
2. Jumble/URAP is scum and claims PR. This draws a counter-claim from the real PR and they are NKed.

...

The only possible scenario where town!TW may make this move is if they are the Doctor and Doctor!TW believes they can defend the claimant. However, I don't believe TW is unsophisticated enough in his reasoning not to consider a) the possibility of the Mafia Roleblocker; and b) the ability of the Mafia to skillfully dissect the PR combos, town!TW's motivations and identify town!TW as the likely Doctor and NK him instead.

Sorry for my level 0 analysis TW, I'm a newb.

[foodcoats]

Need some time to think about it, don't you?

[foodcoats]

There's something else you're not considering about the PRs; I don't want to talk about it since it's extremely anti town, but I think there's something you should think a little more about to get your narrative complete. For me, at this point the worst should be considered as obvtown; could you guess why?

I'm really sorry, pin, but I can't. I am not trying to be difficult; I think if you've followed my game so far, you know I'm willing to be persuaded. But I spelled out my reasoning above and I see no scenario where TW's play benefits town. That is why I specifically wanted input from you and Cheeky as SEs, in case I am missing a strategic or game theorical justification that is otherwise known by Mafia players.

TW's playstyle is only a supporting point in my argument. If I can understand how the claim play benefited town, I could re-read TW's ISO with that information.

[foodcoats]

I think that you're at least casing the worst with some more arguments beside the claiming fiasco, being this the coup de grâce of your case and not the main course. Could you continue on that line? What the worst made him scummy before the claiming thing?

It is absolutely the main course. On D1 we can only observe scummy behaviour or agendas and actually lynching scum is more luck than anything; on D2 we can begin to look at scummy

actions

, which in my admittedly limited experience seem more effective as scum catching clues. I would be pushing to lynch Urist if not for TW's claim play.

The two other elements in my case against TW are 1) his ISO, which is really hedgey/blendy (which is, in fact, one of the arguments being advanced to lynch URAP2) (

has anyone else even read TW's ISO?

), and 2) something that I thought was "off" in TW's case against URAP2, which occurred on the final day of D1 but well before EOD. TW never responded to it. Here is a fragment:

VOTE: URAP2 I do not see what you're seeing wrt Jumble tbh but this is probably red

TW, I also tried to get a wagon going on Jumble. Why did you start a vote on URAP2 for voting town!Jumble but not on me?

I think TW was uncharacteristically "selectively deaf" when I started that line of inquiry, and similarly avoided responding to the core of my argument about the claim play.

I think I see what you are saying about why town!TW would make the claim play, but I think I already addressed it in my argument above. I think the costs and risks of the play for town!TW vastly outweigh the benefits, and I do not believe TW is that weak a player.

[foodcoats]

VOTE: Yyotta because maybe she'll respond to this instead of

Yyotta I luv u plz respond

We should be trying to catch scum!Yyotta's partner. If we mislynch Yyotta we're fucked.

[foodcoats]

VOTE: Yyotta because maybe she'll respond to this instead of

Yyotta I luv u plz respond

We should be trying to catch scum!Yyotta's partner. If we mislynch Yyotta we're fucked.

Why are we fucked if we mislynch her? I think dragging her to D3 in the worst case scenario (we mislynch today someone else) is catastrophic, 'cause it's all LyLo after that.

Sorry: we're fucked if we mislynch, and Yyotta, from what I can see from her other games, is no more or less likely scum here.

[foodcoats]

Yeah, on that I agree. Let's talk about associatives then. Let's say the worst is scum; who is his partner? Do you think him, as an IC, would let Yvotta to act like this the whole game? Is that a plausible scumteam?

I'm suspicious it's Urist based on their multi ISO but I'm worried it's WIFOM.

[foodcoats]

I'm so glad to hear that, Pin!

Since we're being frank, I take it that you believe you have identified a PR, and also that you trust in TW's skill enough to believe that he is likely to have identified that pr as well?

URAP2, who do you think is scum right now?

[foodcoats]

We're put in 3-2 LyLo either way if we mislynch today (barring potential doctor/JK intervention).

Would you rather that 3-2 be a 4 player game at all? Or are you hoping one of the PR slots will sort her out for you?
In any case, that would be a PR in exchange for yyotta- is that REALLY pro-town?

If Yvotta is scum, then yes, exchanging a PR for her is protown, that's the whole point of having investigatives, to sort null reads.

But I agree with you, this was towards foodcoats right?

I don't know that I was thinking of "exchanging a PR" to read Yyotta. But, short of a PR read, I don't think we can ever confidently read Yyotta. scum!Yyotta has a partner, though. Everyone else is active in the game at this point, and I think a better town strategy is to try to sort out who, within the group of all players excluding Yyotta, that is. Lynching Yyotta for lurking right now seems like it has really negative expected value.

[foodcoats]

Urist vs. FC. No. Just. No. Alcohol induced hyper tunneling on one side, skeptical response, followed by deescalation and '2scum4scum', followed by re escalation, followed by wagoning on the other.

I think both Urist and I are insulted by you dissuading people from reading our glorious feud.

... NOT A SCUM SLIP.

[foodcoats]

URAP2, who do you think is scum right now?

that's a tough question. gonna tackle it poe style. Right now my town circle is {pin}

I'm leaning town on duck and vork

I'd like an opportunity to reevaluate you, but I don't think I'll get to that until this evening

that leaves urist and yyotta

Thanks. FWIW I lean town on Vorkuta and pin as well, scum lean on Urist and TW. You and Yyotta are null.

[foodcoats]

@FC I think it would be productive if you want to go through possible partners of scum!Yyotta

I think I thought of something, but I'm going to let some other people speak for a bit.

[foodcoats]

for the record, I believe I called lurker lynches a cop out on a couple of occasions D1

Yeah I also opposed a Yyotta lynch in some way or other at several points for the same reason I'm opposed to it now.

[foodcoats]

Here's a multi-ISO of Yyotta/Urist.

1. My emphasis and colouring. Do we ever see this from scum!Urist throwing shade on scum!Yyotta so early in the game? I think not, though scum tend to like bussing.

Big ryhmes

Rough ideas of how I'm feeling about this now;

tw;

Active pro-town, interested to see what ends up happening (if scum he's hiding it well, if town hugs and kisses)

Yyotta:

Easy lynch, non-allignment yet. Watching out for incoming interactions and (un)votes

Jimble Jamble Jittering Jumble;

I've got my eyes on you Don't ask me why (or do?)

Mainly null for rest

2. I think this is the ONLY "normal" interaction Yyotta ever really attempts to have with anyone. Is this because scum!Yyotta is only comfortable with her partner, scum!Urist? (Bolded because this is perhaps the most interesting thing in Yyotta's ISO and may tell us something important.)

PvtUrist, quick question:
do you prefer playing as town or scum?

I personaly think: town gives some kind like puzzlely situation
scum is more of a disguise in the crowd situation

idc whihch one i get honestly

3. This is quite a nuanced view of Yyotta by Urist. I tend to think scum!Urist wouldn't discuss scum!Yyotta this way:

My impressions of Yyotta are similiar to yours, being either a geniune new player or some real big professional with equally large mindtricks. The former seems much more likely (maybe that's what she wants us to think :/). Doesn't seem like a baddie (unlike me? ) but her previous posts are going to make future facedes more restrictive if she ever choose to do so. Either way, might have a better view of alignment with time.

4. Uncharacteristic of Urist to take off the gas, if you compare Urist's lines against me, Cheeky and pin:

his posts seem town-ish

and you are overloading me with questions

In that case what's your favourite animal and why?

5. Hmm, this is a lot of explanation on Urist's part. Urist doesn't usually condescend to defend her/himself this way. (Long block here so in spoiler.)

Spoiler:

his posts seem town-ish

and you are overloading me with questions

In that case what's your favourite animal and why?

Are you trying to buddy YyottaCat? Is it fair if I find this scummy?

How do you respond to the threat of infection post werebeast attack? I feel like how you respond to such a threat to your fortress will give insight into your town morality.

Considering she caught me off guard with this question;

PvtUrist, quick question:
do you prefer playing as town or scum?

I personaly think: town gives some kind like puzzlely situation
scum is more of a disguise in the crowd situation

idc whihch one i get honestly

It's only fair that I made one in reply.

6. Wow, didn't realize Urist can be this nice! This actually does feel like scum bolstering scum. I think everyone else has generally the same feeling as expressed by Vorkuta, the "for God's sake please just do something" feeling for Yyotta. Looks like Urist is coaching her here.

Yyotta,

I can understand that it's intimidating, it's difficult to potentially post something without the fear of accidentally coming across as scum. I have myself to blame for not attempting to interact with you earlier. Please realise that the more content you post, the more we get to trust in your words and allignment, and that it's of no benefit to town if you choose to remain silent. Take me for example; I was not afraid to come across as scum-lean initially, and that I'm not afraid to speak my mind despite the very much real threat of having a knife slipped through my back. As long as town wins (and that I feel I've personally brought enough contributions in order to do so), personal safety is secondary. Beside, the more interactions you make, the more you get to learn and gain experience to be utlized in future games (and to an extent, IRL). That's why we're here, no? To have fun and to learn a thing or two.

7. More scum coaching scum?

Also Yyotta please do tell us how you're feeling about things, specifically your plans for D2, as well as what Vorkuta asked.

8. I think all of town is definitely incentivized to get Yyotta active, but this is still a weird attitude from Urist, continuing to coach Yyotta. Perhaps scum!Urist is being met with silence in scumchat and is trying to bring scum!Yyotta along to prevent her lynching.

I thought volxen was replaced.

He was (by pintu)

For the sake of yourself and the town, please do try to communicate with us more in the future. If you can convince us of your town-allignment (and provide you are indeed town), that's one less potential mislynch we'd have to go through.

TL;DR There's some interesting things in here but no bloody dagger.

[foodcoats]

Also! scum!Yyotta's (non-)play could be a factor in scum!Urist throwing in the towel when she/he was an L-1 wagon. If it's your first game, your team-mate totally sucks, and you're about to get hammered, maybe you just ragequit.

[foodcoats]

Ok so FC just to be clear here- now in this analysis, do you just provide mere analysis/justification (devil's advocate) for a urist/yyotta scum team?
Or are you actually drawing a line in the sand and claiming that 'this is the scum team!' (no bloody dagger)?

My multi-ISO is essentially WIFOM, it has to

assume

that Y/U is the scumteam.

The important thing is, I believe that the Yyotta/Urist scum team can be deduced based on reads of the other players. My logic is full of assumptions, so I need to wait and see what else happens.

[foodcoats]

Also! scum!Yyotta's (non-)play could be a factor in scum!Urist throwing in the towel when she/he was an L-1 wagon. If it's your first game, your team-mate totally sucks, and you're about to get hammered, maybe you just ragequit.

I've only skimmed your above post, but this all looks like good work. I can't wait to dive into it when I have more time in a few hours.

@vork that list is a great start, and a lot of good stuff. I think you've missed some stuff, for instance I believe I referred to Yyotta as YY, and someone referred to her as Yvotta at some point I remember.

Thanks so much both of you for putting in the effort.

scum!URAP pockets foodcoats and Vorkuta?

[foodcoats]

Talking about associations when there hasn't been a scumflip usually is useless because it's FULL of WIFOM

Yes, absolutely.

That said, I think it is possible to arrive at a Yyotta/Urist scum team by deduction. Any one town member must make certain assumptions to get there, and there are some secrets town should not speak, but let's say my reasoning goes like this:

• I know I am town
  
• I assume from long association and many reaction tests that Vorkuta is town
  
• I choose to conclude from certain posts by TW and pin that TW is not scum
  
• This being so decided, I can read into other D2 posts that pinturicchio and u r a person 2 are not scum
  
• This so reasoned, only Urist and Yyotta can be scum

Obviously there are two major risks:

• I could be wrong about Vorkuta
  
• A pin/TW scumteam could be hoodwinking me, since after all I was quite convinced of my scumread of TW just 12 hours ago

The first risk I accept because I believe my read is relatively good; the other I think I have identified other reasons to believe in the reasons of others.

[foodcoats]

I will join Vorkuta in pressuring Yyotta but I would also vote Urist.

VOTE: Yyotta

[foodcoats]

I definitely figured your were cop and TW said we'd lynch you today to draw off any fire... but I actually thought you cleared pin? You had that post that showed that the only town in your reads was pin, I thought that meant you had cleared pin as town.

[foodcoats]

I should probably reread the game to understand the logic but I already believed you were cop, I just misinterpreted your reads, and I've counter tunnelled Urist enough anyway.

VOTE: Pinturicchio

[foodcoats]

Good game all!

[foodcoats]

thank you to penguinpower for quickly catching the problem with my endgame ! !! that could have been a huge problem !!!!

LOL I thought you were just trolling.

[foodcoats]

thank you to penguinpower for quickly catching the problem with my endgame ! !! that could have been a huge problem !!!!

LOL I thought you were just trolling.

I townread this reaction so much

Haha I even for a minute thought I'd hammered us into a loss and I didn't understand the newbie setup.

[foodcoats]

I'm not sure if I learned anything this game... other than finding the loop to ID URAP2 as cop. If that hadn't happened I'm not sure I'd have ever had cause to suspect pin, and I was largely opposed to lynching Yyotta for lurking. Definitely need to improve how I read and try to deduce scum. I'm somewhat annoyed at myself that I allowed Urist to drive me to frustration and start scumreading him for being tunnelled on me.

Vorkuta, I had a lot of fun playing with you and reading your posts! MVP.

[foodcoats]

TW and schadd, thanks for running the game!