Newbie 1910: Aerial Photography [Game Over!]

[the worst]

hello all, nice to meet you! I'm

the worst

, and i'll be the inexperience challenged ("IC") player for this game.
(btw nice to see you again ceejayvinoya & GuiltyLion <3)

In essence, my role as an IC means I've been playing mafia on this site for a while, and have volunteered to take on a role of teaching and trying to help newer players adjust to our site culture and enjoy their time here.
It does not guarantee either:-
1) my alignment, nor
2) that I am good at mafia... , nor
3) that I'm allowed to 'go easy' on anyone!

My role here is more or less to follow the guidelines set out in this article here. I will try my best and take this as seriously as any game, and explain anything along the way that I think will help; of course if you have any theory or terminology questions, I'm here to help!

Alignments / Roles

There is so so much writing on ways you can approach different alignments and roles. And no writing is objectively correct. Everyone's style is different, and that's what has kept mafia fun for so many decades.

For anyone who would just like some general pointers around how some mafia players conduct themselves + the flow of the game, there are some terrific articles on the MafiaScum wiki. A lot of them are dated, but I'd say start off with something like this.

Vi's Newbie Guide to Being Awesome At Mafia
This is largely pointers about ways to play as either alignment, and is awesome reading. There's no "as town, do this; as scum, do this". Just recommendations on how to self assess the way you want to approach the game.

Imo the best way to play mafia is to remember it's a game, make sure you're having fun, and exercise empathy wherever possible. Be yourself and try not to panic about speaking your mind. People will challenge you (I know I will ) but it's always super helpful to try and see if you can fit in their shoes too: are they trying to make you look like scum? Are they trying to work out your alignment (townies sorting players)? Are they just lost and trying to find a way to enter the conversation?

Mafia's a hard game, but I believe approaching it sincerely to have a good time is super super rewarding! Good luck all!

[the worst]

mafiascum site culture tends to start days with "random voting stage" (rvs); basically throw down a vote with either no reasoning, or some very thinly veiled reasoning.

this usually goes on until someone sees something that makes them go "hmmm". basically, rvs is quite fun but not hugely useful. it's an evil we deem necessary, since the game's gotta kick off somehow.
the real fun starts after this stage, when questions/votes/accusations start flying. so if anyone sees something which looks like a good conversation point, or something they want to ask someone more about, go crazy!


VOTE: JunkoChan

[the worst]

I'm judging.
why don't you like being voted in rvs?

[the worst]

the worst! I'm town! are you??

I'm glad I can play again with GuiltyLion!

hah I recognized your name but honestly didn't remember the game and had to look it up - was an unfortunate one hopefully we do better this time (unless you're scum ofc )

can you newbies get avatars to make it easier to recognize all of you?
VOTE: moonythedwarf
starting with you

Yes! We're the same alignment this time <3
VOTE: moonythedwarf

[the worst]

This post does seem weird, like there is literally one pages and <10 votes, this is extreme laziness or a post just to post.

Do you think it was scummy of Wazoo to make this post? Assuming it's just a post for the sake of posting for a sec.

[the worst]

This post does seem weird, like there is literally one pages and <10 votes, this is extreme laziness or a post just to post.

Do you think it was scummy of Wazoo to make this post? Assuming it's just a post for the sake of posting for a sec.

Stands out as weird yes

Weirdness aside, what do you think it says about his alignment?
I'm curious to see your thinking.

[the worst]

welcome yellowsnow.

[the worst]

work with me - what makes you think it comes from mafia?

also, why unvote yellowsnow? they haven't posted yet!

and just remembering your dislike of being random voted--why random vote him in the first place?

[the worst]

Clarification I don't mind random voting, I don't like being voted for no reason, I had a reason he was still inactive

about the logic behind that, people asking for mechanics rather than focusing on what's going on more often than not are scum gaining time

I'd be really interested to find out why it struck you that this might be a thing that he's doing as scum. You're more or less right, in that when people over-focus on mechanics at the expense of scumhunting, it's often because they're scum who don't want to fake reads.

What do you make of the fact that his request for a vote count was his fourth post, which came after an rvs vote and his questions @ you about your history? I'm trying to see if I can insert my brain behind your eyes and read his posts the way you're reading them. Talk me through how you went through parsing his first four posts and reached the "mechanics focus, probably scum" conclusion?

I also don't like Chan being against replacements. What's the alternative.

I was talking about rhis recently, modkills are better imo, i'm okay with tour replaxement cuz it was an early one, but mis game end gane replacements are so annoying.

Just a personal thought

From a theory point of view I'd strongly disagree, and suggest it's pretty far from the way MS approaches balancing games.

At a mechanical/fairness level, games need to be balanced in a way that either faction can afford to win. if town has an important power role who is vital to balance, but can't play due to commitments, a game becomes heavily scumsided by their being modkilled.

But also, in a perfect world there wouldn't be replacements, I agree.

[the worst]

I'm gonna drop a readlist because I like readlists. They kinda help me calibrate and are a good point of reference for me when I have further thoughts on someone's slot (like if I thought "oh hey that post guiltylion made looks quite scummy", I like being able to swing back to a snippet of where my brain was at last time I thought through everything so I can check myself back - "no maybe he's just town", or "wow maybe he is scum!")

this is something like how I usually format my lists; if any of you want to take a similar approach to weighing/calibrating your reads please feel free to. totally optional and a playstyle thing, however.

conftown (role pm): {tw}
townread: GrandWazoo
leaning town: GuiltyLion
nulltown: YellowSnow, Nineja
null: computerfan0, moonythedwarf, ceejayvinoya
nullscum:
leaning scum: JunkoChan
scumread:


if anyone wants to talk to me / question me about these as well, let me know.

[the worst]

I should not post while sleepy I make a lot of typos


you said he had 4 posts, while true let me break them up to you

1 rvs vote
2 off topic discussion about my time in the page
1 vote count after 1 page???

so he basicly has 1 post and one weird post from my pov

don't worry about it Typos Happen

let's work through your thoughts on his discussion about your time onsite/mafia history - do you think this comes from someone who doesn't know your alignment and wants to get a gauge of how you play the game to discern your alignment? or do you think it's more likely to come from someone who already knows your alignment?

[the worst]

Hmm okay. How do you feel about yellowsnow and GuiltyLion?

[the worst]

Spoiler:

Clarification I don't mind random voting, I don't like being voted for no reason, I had a reason he was still inactive

about the logic behind that, people asking for mechanics rather than focusing on what's going on more often than not are scum gaining time

I understand the logic behind this, but IMO this is scum trying to gain an early game town read on the players by "scumhunting". I lost my original type up for why I explained this right when I was about to send it (yay mobile thank you for so much >_>) so this one wont be as detailed but imma try my best to remember my old points. anyways I think this is scum because in JunkoChan words scum is "gaining time" or in otherwords stalling, but scum wouldnt benefit from stalling day 1 of all days especially when we have 8 days left in the DL. Scum would benefit from getting early game townreads/allowing the game to let them townlead which I think JunkoChan is trying to do. At first I thought this was to shift attention and votes off moonythedwarf, who has the most votes at the moment but now that I look at it its too early into day 1 to consider a shift like that, so for now I'll just stick with Mafia trying to gain early game town cred. You could make the arguement that this post was filler or just there to make a post but I doubt mafia would filler early game because they know just as much as we do rn about who is what (in other words very little) so they need to use their time wisely in order to get as much information as possible before we as a Town lynch them.

UNVOTE: ceejayvinoya
VOTE: JunkoChan

By the way, YellowSnow what do you mean by trying to gain newbie sympathy? It seemed like a random vote that you need to explain more imo I'd like more detail on what exactly you mean.

how did you feel about this post?--can you see where the perspective clashes come from etc.? Feel free to talk through a few points which like evoke a strong reaction from you. I was curious to see how you'd take this kinda push.

[the worst]

My townlist right now includes GW, the worst, ninja and me.

What makes you townread GW, and nineja?

[the worst]

Ok so i guess my post didnt go through. Aww.

That's OK try again - what were you going to post? What's on your mind?

[the worst]

Alright. What do you think of Junko and Wazoo so far? I see you're voting for Wazoo - talk to me about his posts?

[the worst]

I have no clue, it seems we all are playing the exact same card, and said card is self conflicting.
And at the same time, this "play style" we're currently in has a nice issue where being pushy == lynch.


I propose we try cleaning up the vote slate, and carrying on with actual insights and discussion. Maybe?
UNVOTE: we're not getting anywhere

I'm not sure I understand your POV in this post.. I feel like we're definitely getting somewhere, and I'm not sure why being pushy == lynch? In my experience applying squeeze to players and seeing how they react is the best way to tell whether they're lying (scum) or not.

Where does your paranoia about being lynched come from? What would the benefit of a clean vote slate be? Who do you think we should be voting/pressuring, given we can't afford to not vote anyone?

[the worst]

Why did you choose to vote GrandWazoo, computerfan? Curious to see your reasoning.

[the worst]

How is this day headed towards a no lynch? :p

[the worst]

94 was an overly defesive and bad response.


Why is everyone being so scummy?

Big Mood

I feel like I should be doing more to stoke the fire.

[the worst]

It wasnt really anything important, just a "bah i'm alive and have nothing to add" type post.

This whole exchange was pretty null or maybe slightly town indicative for his GrandWazoo post but the response to me asking for his thoughts about GW was kinda like.. :/ uh

I have no clue, it seems we all are playing the exact same card, and said card is self conflicting.
And at the same time, this "play style" we're currently in has a nice issue where being pushy == lynch.


I propose we try cleaning up the vote slate, and carrying on with actual insights and discussion. Maybe?
UNVOTE: we're not getting anywhere

do you think these comments about playstyles/gamestate are alignment indicative, YellowSnow?

[the worst]

@GL I need you here my friend. you've got a scent of that Presence you have as town. let's crack this game! <3

@cjv, I'd be keen to have a chat when you're around as well.

[the worst]

throw me some GrandWazoo townread reasoning GL?

[the worst]

You should definitely stay woke on the possibility I'm scum - there's a 2/9 chance I could be. you're in luck this time, but the scum!IC is a scary prospect.

I'm parsing a couple of things at the moment, GrandWazoo - I'll aim to get some more conclusive thoughts down before the end of the phase. this might be a strange question but do you think your play here has been strongly alignment indicative?

[the worst]

It wasnt really anything important, just a "bah i'm alive and have nothing to add" type post.

This whole exchange was pretty null or maybe slightly town indicative for his GrandWazoo post but the response to me asking for his thoughts about GW was kinda like.. :/ uh

I have no clue, it seems we all are playing the exact same card, and said card is self conflicting.
And at the same time, this "play style" we're currently in has a nice issue where being pushy == lynch.


I propose we try cleaning up the vote slate, and carrying on with actual insights and discussion. Maybe?
UNVOTE: we're not getting anywhere

do you think these comments about playstyles/gamestate are alignment indicative, YellowSnow?

This is like pretty much where I'm af. I don't really have a strong feeling on whether this comes from town or scum, it's just kinda...okay and faintly frustrating that he's not playing the game. were it vital to answer, gth I'd say that I kinda nullscum him for avoiding producing content.

I've seen newbies freeze up the same way as town due to uncertainty and culture shock as well; games play very very differently on some other sites.

I really can't get into Moony's head though which is why my attention's flying elsewhere. I'm a stronger townhunter, than scumhunter.

[the worst]

Easiest way to win mafia: ask everyone for their alignments and tell them they're not allowed to lie. if they lie they break the rules!!

maybe this is too revolutionary a breaking strategy



(please don't take this seriously this is a meme not an IC post)

[the worst]

basically it's 24hrs from a prod assuming they don't answer -- prod timers are a little bit more relaxed over the festive/new years period.

But I don't have that "Argh I feel like everyone here is town" feeling which is exciting. Where are you at with the people posting?

[the worst]

I think that moony might be town and 1 mafia is on the wagon pushing for an easy day 1 lynch GL is null to me rn so its 50/50 between Worst and GW.

What's making you think Moony might be town?

[the worst]

also curious why you chose to unvote there, rathwr than pressuring one of {GW, GL, me}? why do you omit GL from being scum just because he's a null read of yours? why not vote one of the three of us for pressure?

[the worst]

could you give me a quick summary of your reads? (a tiered readlist would be perfect, otherwise just talk me through your current takes)

[the worst]

I pretty much know where I stand after I talk to Nineja, and preferably GuiltyLion.

sorry for passiveness & overquestioning. as an aside I'm trying something a little different to how I usually play; if I'm very underwhelming, let me know and I'll try to ramp it up a bit.

[the worst]

GrandWazoo, sorry if this is a bit of a strange question. would you consider yourself more like, sassy/prickly than you normal are, this game? I'd be interested in heading why if so.

[the worst]

Diminishing returns?

[the worst]

Alright I'll talk you through what's on my mind. You're tied for 2nd highest poster at the time of writing so I feel like I should be feeling more comfortable about my read of you.

I had a cursory read of your last game and noticed a couple of differences, which made me curious.

firstly, you have less of a uhh approachable/flexible tone here. in your other game I got the feeling you engaged pretty well with the rest of the list, though I agree your playstyle is naturally inquisitive/somewhat prickly. some of your posts like this

Ok so i guess my post didnt go through. Aww.

Can we get some more votes on this tool?

here feel kind of faked-aggressive which pinged me to think about later.

Given your approach to YellowSnow in your last game, I'm slightly surprised to see you haven't made any comments on Junko's more recent posting which I think is pretty newbtown-indicative. Do you agree here? From your ISO it felt as though you were casting kinda slight suspicions there, without doubling down wrt voting, and I was surprised to see you didn't reevaluate your own read on her after she started posting more.

I agree he's wolfy but unfortunately pushes like yours against Moony make you harder to read. there's a cliche that "scum push low hanging fruit", but I wholeheartedly disagree that this is a reliable tell. town push scummy low hanging fruit just as often as scum push unaligned low hanging fruit. if like, Moony is suddenly confirmed as town or something, I'd be really curious to see where you go next.



having said that I don't think I'm actually convincing myself to scumread you. more like I'm seeing unexpected quirks in your play, and I'm curious to get inside your head a little bit more. it's intriguing to hear that you don't think this is all that different from your last game.

[the worst]

throw me some GrandWazoo townread reasoning GL?

I thought the take on Junko that I referred to mirrored my own view of the game, and I also felt 64 was just a townie post in general. He's pushing back against you as the IC and explicitly trying to avoid looking into "NAI details", I don't think that angle comes naturally from newbie scum as they're more likely in the mindset of looking for things to push on. stoking the fires of the mooney wagon is also a brave move as scum if that slot is town. overall he's doing his own thing and doesn't seem particularly concerned with how others are looking at him for it

I think 64 is a decent post but I was kinda hoping to see some teeth in his reaction to my read. It felt like he took being townread in his stride and the bulk of 64 was like, game theory/holistic meta related.

do you think it's unfair of me to come to a net nullread on post 64? which parts of it struck you as towny?

I'd be curious to see your thoughts on 139 but don't feel the need to like, go and metadive him or respond to it in detail. I'd just be interested to see your immediate reaction.

pedit: Hells yes fam!!!

[the worst]

Would you believe it only JUST struck me how brilliant it is that you use Hobbes as your avatar with the name GuiltyLion?

[the worst]

sure that's reasonable; the faked aggression thing in this game is mainly what made me stop and think. the cop thing is a pretty fair pickup.

what do you think of YellowSnow so far?

[the worst]

OK here are my reasons for lynching moony:

Ok so i guess my post didnt go through. Aww.

This is annoying as fuck.

Voting for being a derp is rude.
Aaaanyways, why are you so insistent on voting me in the first place? Hmm?
VOTE: GrandWazoo

OMGUS

It wasnt really anything important, just a "bah i'm alive and have nothing to add" type post.

This is even worse than 66. Rather than come up with a valuable contribution, or even bothering to pull some weak rationalization out his ass, we get "Bah!"

Moony is either scum or totally useless town. Either way we are better off without him.

with respect to GW - this is one of those cases that makes me want to lynch the lyncher not the lynchee. having said that I do like the fact he volunteered it, and it is absolutely not coached a la the way you and cjv push mislynches as scum so I'm swinging back around to slightly townreading it as I'm thinking thru this aloud.

[the worst]

I'll just vote for Nineja, as there is no real way to make an informed decision
VOTE: Nineja

My vote didn't work for whatever reason.

Anyway: UNVOTE: Nineja
VOTE: TheGrandWazoo

Sorry there isn't much to talk about with this slot. I'm getting a slight town mindset vibe from computerfan's contributions, but I think it's my PoE kicking in

how are you reading it?

[the worst]

I actually really liked YellowSnow's turn on GrandWazoo. I think it fits well into like the newbie paranoia zone of "yeah this person's town... HOLD ON WHAT IF"

it's the kind of read I'd actually be really surprised to see orchestrated honestly. I also agree that there's aspects to GW's play which give off energy which I can see why people would find manipulative (I know I keep talking about it, but I definitely think his push on Moony at the expense of pushing other slots has been a little vexing)

[the worst]

can I share a secret with you?

[the worst]

nah yeah 150 is a good post. I think I understand your approach to this game a little better now. I can go back thru your ISO and dig up the comments wrt Junko which made me feel like you were positioning a little if it'll help but I think I can feel your brain a little bit better now.

[the worst]

{tw}
{YellowSnow}
{cjv, junko, GrandWazoo}
{computerfan0, GuiltyLion}
{Moony, Nineja}

I'm probably roughly here at the moment.

@GL if you're town I'm sorry to do this to you but I don't think our real-time just now was super productive (probably my fault for prompting it when there wasn't really a juicy convereation going on; but y'know). also I feel like we're not seeing super eye to eye on a couple of the deeper reads which I was hoping we might. this definitely feels divergent from the scumgame I saw recently but it's also very different from the last time we were both town if that makes sense?

either way I feel like you're a fairly bad d1 lynch and if you're town I think you'll be more sortableful later on.

[the worst]

crossing my little tiny webbed toes that YellowSnow isn't scum here. if he is he's somehow read my mind and worked out exactly how to fit me in his pocket.

[the worst]

crossing my little tiny webbed toes that YellowSnow isn't scum here. if he is he's somehow read my mind and worked out exactly how to fit me in his pocket.

this might apply to you as well GW

[the worst]

computerfan, what's your strongest feeling about who's mafia or town so far?

[the worst]

I'm actually a little more comfortable sitting on Moony for the replacement for now. if computerfan0 sticks to this line of play tho there's definitely a world where we have no option but to lynch there.

thoughts on Nineja & my spicy take there?

[the worst]

YO BRASS! man I've missed playing with you. good to have you back. If I'm around when you catch up yell out if you wanna jam about some stuff.

[the worst]

could you give me a quick summary of your reads? (a tiered readlist would be perfect, otherwise just talk me through your current takes)

GrandWazoo / The Worst > computerfan0 > GuiltyLion > cjv > junko > YellowSnow > Moony

This is scummiest to towniest btw

re. needing more time - that's fine. do what you can, the EoD is pretty close though.

I'm guessing you think the scumteam is me/GW basically? if not that's fine, saying two scum are in {tw, gw, cf0} and not knowing where to hone in is valid.

why aren't you voting myself or gw if you think we're scum? like the gamestate is orienting towards more people townreading both of us (esp. GW) so I'm surprised you don't feel the need to vote anyone?

why are you hard townreading Moony? => why YellowSnow over Junko? I have opinions as well obviously but I'm interested in seeing your mindset.

[the worst]

I probably should have spoken up earlier yeah -- I agree entirely with brassherald.

These types of games (9p, one kill per day (lynch), one kill per night (mafia nightkill)), work perfectly on the assumption that we lynch each day. mislynching day one actually offers a higher chance of winning than not lynching d1, if I recall correctly. if you're interested I can crunch the numbers.

but it's somewhat beneficial for town to work in odd numbers (9p => lynch & nk => 7p => lynch & nk => 5p, etc.)

[the worst]

{tw}
{YellowSnow}
{cjv, junko, GrandWazoo}
{computerfan0, GuiltyLion}
{Moony, Nineja}

Why is junko so high? And Nineja so low?

You might have had reasoning underneath this, but I didn't read it.

I didn't explain it, I'm glad you asked (and I already get the feeling my ceejayvinoya townread was on point). I liked her reaction to pressure, and I think her reasoning roughly aligns with the way she approaches the game as town--i had the benefit of following her last newbie game about a year ago at the time and heavily scumreading her until she was lynched and flipped town.

I need to like, go through and check specific posts here against her posting there before it's a heavy townread. but I vividly remember her being extremely lynchbaity and I've enjoyed the thought process that I can see here.

Nineja I think is pretty wolfy. Let me know when you're fully caught up, I'd appreciate a reality check here.

[the worst]

off the top of my head I wanna say town voting first in 3p LyLo = 25% chance of a town win (they need to vote correctly & the other townie needs to vote correctly). 4p MyLo is substantially lower. I don't wanna get too far into maths spam tho

[the worst]

I kinda agree. This game has been too slow.

So I didn't like Nineja's early case against Junko. First impression was positive but the more I thought about it the more I don't think it makes sense that Junko was trying to shift attention from Moony. she called something out which seemed like a conversation topic and it like, abundantly hasn't happened; I think this is wolfy positioning and heavily presumptuous.

His townread of Moony is outright frightening; I got the impression he was calling junko/moony SvS in his earlier junko case. Moony has done nothing AI. the townread only checks out on the basis that he thinks that the entire wagon has high scum equity (tw/gw scum with no reasoning; GL is "null". but he doesn't seem interested in actually taking any of the 3 of us on...)

[the worst]

VOTE: Nineja
join me here, if you feel it.

[the worst]

I think that moony might be town and 1 mafia is on the wagon pushing for an easy day 1 lynch GL is null to me rn so its 50/50 between Worst and GW.

What's making you think Moony might be town?

I think that moony might be town and 1 mafia is on the wagon pushing for an easy day 1 lynch GL is null to me rn so its 50/50 between Worst and GW.

What's making you think Moony might be town?

because I feel this is a scum lynching an easy day 1 lynch so Moony is probably town, I'm not saying he can't be scum, but this lynch looks a little too sus for me it just feels like atleast 1 scum is on this lynch. To answer your 2nd post (mobile sucks so i cant quote) GL can still be scum thats true however I personally find you 2 scummier and think the scum is more likely between you 2. I think GL should talk more though, would like more from them. I unlynched without lynching because I wanted to see your answer to my question first (about the JunkoChan read) before I lynched between you or GW.

could you give me a quick summary of your reads? (a tiered readlist would be perfect, otherwise just talk me through your current takes)

could you give me a quick summary of your reads? (a tiered readlist would be perfect, otherwise just talk me through your current takes)

GrandWazoo / The Worst > computerfan0 > GuiltyLion > cjv > junko > YellowSnow > Moony

This is scummiest to towniest btw

What do you think of this?

[the worst]

VOTE: GuiltyLion
not preferred but I can work with this.

[the worst]

for the record the posturing in 127 leading into the HARD TOWNREAD on a lurker slot in 162 is what's ringing my alarm bells. incidentally I think Nineja => GL interactions are more likely to be scum/scum than anything else I've spotted today.. The way he nullreads him and just... leaves him there is pinging

pedit: brass has the best-cut jib in the land.

[the worst]

I actually agree entirely and think Yellow'z push back against GrandWazoo is less likely to come from teh scumz than teh townz.

[the worst]

I don't even think it's non-alignment indicative (NAI). I think it's slightly town scented.

[the worst]

it's a kind of sail
it's a good thing, trust me
you trust me right?

[the worst]

still pretty sure I was a town vigilante in Project Pinecone. but I digress....

[the worst]

@GW, want to help with a more spicy wagon rather than unvote?

[the worst]

VOTE: Nineja
I'd rather this, as well. But in my experience unless you have a Very Very Strong feeling it's better to wagon a scummy player than vote your #1 scumread for vanity. all the same it's better to vanity vote than unvote categorically.

up to you

[the worst]

the "not voting" wagon is tilting me

[the worst]

I think Yyotta is very hard to read (nearly impossible from my point of view unless she posts a fair bit), but if she's v/la for a couple of days we don't really have a choice but to pursue a slot with more content in my opinion.

[the worst]

talk me thru it a little? his posting is hard to fake as scum but I also think it has little glimmers of towniness through it as well -- could you show me where you're seeing scum motivation?

[the worst]

talk me thru it a little? his posting is hard to fake as scum but I also think it has little glimmers of towniness through it as well -- could you show me where you're seeing scum motivation?

Why did I think of a fountain when reading this?

is it the duck connection?
you caught up Yyotta?

[the worst]

@GrandWazoo, say the slot flips green. What then?
I wouldn't suggest we lynch exclusively for information but... is your biggest scumread on a slot that's done nothing? do you not want to vote or even lynch slots that have associations and have done scummier stuff?

[the worst]

I kinda agree. This game has been too slow.

So I didn't like Nineja's early case against Junko. First impression was positive but the more I thought about it the more I don't think it makes sense that Junko was trying to shift attention from Moony. she called something out which seemed like a conversation topic and it like, abundantly hasn't happened; I think this is wolfy positioning and heavily presumptuous.

His townread of Moony is outright frightening; I got the impression he was calling junko/moony SvS in his earlier junko case. Moony has done nothing AI. the townread only checks out on the basis that he thinks that the entire wagon has high scum equity (tw/gw scum with no reasoning; GL is "null". but he doesn't seem interested in actually taking any of the 3 of us on...)

You didn't find this worth commenting on?

I've abandoned the Socratic method. I've been pretty candid about what's going on in my mind, I'm just surprised I'm not really being engaged with and people are just carrying on with what they're doing.

Moony's contributions were meh. He's replaced out and Yyotta is here. She actually plays the game but is busy for the next couple of days (with deadline looming).

I've got serious concerns with lynching a slot which has contributed nearly nothing, when I believe Nineja has exhibited scum indicative traits. I also like brass' push on GuiltyLion; I'm not townreading him at all yet and there's scum equity there.

[the worst]

I actually don't really have a problem with Moony's posting. He's got a relaxed tonality, nothing feels forced and he's not going out of his way to slide by or appease anyone. His question about why you're voting him is.... fine I guess.

Yyotta just hit the slot but isn't able to post much yet. Given she just quoted me on the current page she's either caught up, or will at least be around to work through this with us (her alignment should also clear up once she IS here).

I guess to me it feels closer to a policy lynch than a lynch intending to hit scum. I understand that your conviction reaches deeper but I just don't like the lynch for todsy.

[the worst]

VOTE: Nineja

not feeling a GrandWazoo lynch. i think he's exhibited some pretty towny traits which Nineja is lacking.

[the worst]

i actually think his continued push on yyotta is town indicative

could be reading too much into his play atm but i like the fact he's just unapologetically done his thing. gl + me + plenty of other people have reached out to him and the way he's reacted hasn't been like. scum agendaey at all. he's made no effort to appear artifically towny or pocket anyone, i get the feeling he was pushing yyotta's slot quite genuinely as well.

his responses wrt playstyle conflicts have been really strong too. like i've thrown a few curly questions at him and i liked the haste & conviction of what he threw back.

also fwiw i'm...not sure how you see me as a viable GW partner right now but i think yunko's reach-out was town indicative for her.

[the worst]

talk me through which players you're seeing as distinctly wolfier than Nineja and why/if you townread Nineja, Yellow?

[the worst]

Look, from what I have seen, we can lynch about 5 of the players for lack of real interest, right now I would prefer to take a measured risk against people I have a chance to read correctly and have more NKA and associatives to work with on Day 2 than lynch people uninvolved just for the sake of their being uninvolved.

t h i s

over the last year if there's one thing i've learned about lynching day one:
if you make a "compromise lynch" day one, town is substantially less likely to win.
you gain no information from lynching someone due to low activity. the only real reason to lynch based on low activity, IMO, is if everyone who is posting seems to be town.

out of those posting i think {brass, junko} are the most widely townread. otherwise everyone is scumspected by someone.

we should definitely lynch based on scumreads today.

[the worst]

GL why are you still voting Yyotta out of RVS? I felt like you had like the starts of some pretty interesting insights when you were here.

[the worst]

from like an "holistic meta" point of view (i.e. across the entire site), lurking/replacing out is not a reliable scumtell.
i think from an analysis of newbie games replace-outs are very slightly more likely to be scum but it's like..not a high enough number that it's worth going by. :<

do you think both scum are in the lurkers? (e.g. it's likely to be like, Yyotta/computerfan; you townread pretty much everyone who is active; etc.)
because if not i would very strongly encourage you to consider a more viable wagon on a player who is active, and poses a threat as scum. lurkers sort themselves out in later phases. :/

i think i spoke about the notion that "scum pushes low hanging fruit". this definitely includes lurkers. i don't think you fit into this category fwiw, but it's very common to see scum who are frozen and unable to make stronger reads hyperfocus on lurkers, or players who do things that can be considered annoying. keeping momentum on reading people who are actually in the game rather than focusing on lurkers is hugely beneficial.

i'm not... super? vexed because i don't all that strongly townread either of those slots. but i think there is scum in the people who are posting actively. i know it's instinctual to want to punish lurkers for not playing the game & remove the risk that they're just "coasting by" but this is a LOT easier to resolve later in the game when either:
1) they replace out; or
2) they continue to prod-dodge and display bad faith behaviour (it's hard to tell the difference between busy irl / warming up / lurking scum d1); or
3) they start playing the game

and most vitally: the town win condition is not "lynching lurkers", or removing annoying players. the town win condition is lynching scum.

[the worst]

sorry just a bit of a stream of consciousness thing.. i think there's definitely a #teachingmoment here, but i know it's a bit of a strange concept to tackle. let me know if you want to ask anything or talk through stuff.

[the worst]

One could also say that you are defending your lurking scum buddy.

Absolutely.
One could say you're scum with another active player.
One could say you're scum with Yyotta so you're pushing another lurker slot to get off you.

There are so so so many "possibilities" in mafia. one thing I don't do as either alignment in an IC position is misrepresent game theory; Junko's backed me up here and i think GL/brassherald will regardless of alignment as well.

[the worst]

@Junko, do you townread Nineja?
I noticed your comment about "good non invasive logic" (sorry if i'm miswording here). do you think that's town indicative & could you talk me thru what about his posts you found towny?
sorry for overquestioning, i'm just not seeing it. i think it's one of those things where it's easy to see his long posts and go "wow he's playing the game" but the more i'm reading them the more i'm just...not seeing a town mindset there...

[the worst]

Clarification I don't mind random voting, I don't like being voted for no reason, I had a reason he was still inactive

about the logic behind that, people asking for mechanics rather than focusing on what's going on more often than not are scum gaining time

I understand the logic behind this, but IMO this is scum trying to gain an early game town read on the players by "scumhunting". I lost my original type up for why I explained this right when I was about to send it (yay mobile thank you for so much >_>)

i really didn't take much of an exception to this when i first read thru it but when i try to read it out loud in some kind of nineja voice it doesn't...flow? tone isn't a blatant scumtell in and of itself but i think this is really heavily overdramatised/overcompensated and it doesn't feel natural. natural tonality is more of a newbtown tell than lack of it being a newbscum tell but it's something.

at face value suggesting junko ?could? be scum for breaking out of rvs by pushing back against grandwazoo is ok but i don't think someone with a towny mindset reflects heavily on this, writes up a detailed post, accidentally deletes it, and then writes up another detailed post and posts it without reality checking this read. just off the top of my head a couple of things which i kinda feel like people should come up with pretty quickly when asking themselves "is junko town for this? is junko scum for this?" (or at least variations of these points)
1) by end of page 1 grandwazoo had already given off the impression of being an active poster/unlikely an easy mislynch--why would scum!junko pick him of everyone to fake scumhunt?
2) is her stance actually more likely to come from scum > town? it's probably fair to call it a pretty null/disinteresting issue to have long term, which i've talked to, but at a point in the game where there's nearly no information the fresh perspective junko showed in 36 was actually pretty town indicative imo.

instead he just...reacts assuming that she's town and chainsaws her for calling our grandwazoo
given the amount of time he's spent on this case & rewriting it i'm not convinced this is trying to short junko

so this one wont be as detailed but imma try my best to remember my old points. anyways I think this is scum because in JunkoChan words scum is "gaining time" or in otherwords stalling, but scum wouldnt benefit from stalling day 1 of all days especially when we have 8 days left in the DL.

this is probably ok but refer above. it's just strange that he'd think through this himself while assuming junko is both scum, and scum so silly that she tried to lol-mislynch someone sod1 without paying attention to the timer. this reads closer to posturing than to sorting.

Scum would benefit from getting early game townreads/allowing the game to let them townlead which I think JunkoChan is trying to do. At first I thought this was to shift attention and votes off moonythedwarf, who has the most votes at the moment but now that I look at it its too early into day 1 to consider a shift like that, so for now I'll just stick with Mafia trying to gain early game town cred. You could make the arguement that this post was filler or just there to make a post but I doubt mafia would filler early game because they know just as much as we do rn about who is what (in other words very little) so they need to use their time wisely in order to get as much information as possible before we as a Town lynch them.

this is waffly/overexplained again but absolutely lacks the substance you kinda wanna see from someone who's written out a detailed case then deleted it then rewritten it

i'd contest this is transparently posturing regardless of alignment; this could be expressed in about 3 sentences.

By the way, YellowSnow what do you mean by trying to gain newbie sympathy? It seemed like a random vote that you need to explain more imo I'd like more detail on what exactly you mean.

this was probably my favourite part of his post on initial read but going by reread i think it comes from either alignment pretty readily.
yellowsnow's response was good imo.

I'll just vote for Nineja, as there is no real way to make an informed decision
VOTE: Nineja

Rather than just place a vote somewhere because info isn't coming to you it would be better used if you took that vote and went to go find info yourself. While I'm on the topic and since this is the first time that you've talked (that I know of if you talked before I'm sorry) computerfan0 What do you think of JunkoChan? I'd like to specifically hear what you have to say about them since that vote came at such a weird time.

reactionarily guilting computerfan0 for voting him is pretty null as well, but definitely doesn't give me reason to think he's town.
reaching out about junko is actually pretty good but the overjustification is incredibly stiff and i think the fact he's nervously swinging back to the vote tonally is guilty conscious indicative (sorry, this is a little bit tunnelly. but you're getting everything that's on my mind)

I managed to make the same mistake twice and lose my typing by hitting preview and then going back, I remember most of my points so hopefully this comes out without sounding too off. I think that moony might be town and 1 mafia is on the wagon pushing for an easy day 1 lynch GL is null to me rn so its 50/50 between Worst and GW. Worst has been passive to me this game, sitting back asking questions but not really doing much else, feels like he's just going with the flow, which is scummy to me.

this post is like, incredibly wolfy i think
once again he's written this, deleted it & rewritten it so i'm gonna be coming from the pov that he's obviously spent a fair bit of time analysing this point.

"I think that moony might be town" is ok but i'm having a bit of a chicken/egg dilemma situation here. he's just randomly decided that moony is town and that there is scum on the wagon of {gl, tw, gw}. i can't discern if he scumreads {gl, tw, gw} or townreads moony. i very seriously can't find a reason to townread moony. the only part of his scumread cluster i agree with is potentially {gl} right now. the passivism point about me is...more or less fine, except i think his evasion of my questions only to turn around and position me like this in 124 is probably not coming from someone who's trying to sort me.

as an aside: i totally expect this to come from either paranoid town, or positioning wolves. positioning an IC as potential scum out of paranoia is a very common trait for newer townies, and i always encourage newbies to talk through this kind of paranoia because it helps move the game forward in a huge way.

but his reads here feel very convenient, in a way that feels like they're constructed to push his "moony is town, {gl, tw, gw} is scum" narrative.

Worst whatever did happen to your JunkoChan scum lead you had earlier into the day. Do you town/null read them now or do you just find moony scummier? I'd like to hear an answer to this because I feel as town if you had a read on someone you'd try to get more out of them but you just kinda asked Junko a few questions and then that was it, the passiveness feels scummier here than it does anywhere else imo and to my knowledge he hasn't explained why he had the read or why he dropped/forgot about the read afterwards. If you did just show me the post I want to read over it.

again i like that he's asked me for an update on my junko read but strongly dislike that he answers the question for me while positioning me as scum, again.
from my experience with newbies tunnelling the IC based on experience/fear of quality scumgame, there's a kind of "oh fuck but what if they're just scum who's playing us all for chumps and we'll never be able to catch them?!" kind of mentality. i am dramatising this, but only to get my point across. it's a valid mindset and should always be talked through.

i find it ridiculous that he'd achieve a net IC-paranoia scumread and then assume that i'd be so ridiculous as scum to pretend to scumread Junko, and then randomly forget about it.

again i don't think this is the kind of question/self-answer that comes from someone who is trying to sort me. he's positioning me as scum.

I think that moony might be town and 1 mafia is on the wagon pushing for an easy day 1 lynch GL is null to me rn so its 50/50 between Worst and GW.

What's making you think Moony might be town?

because I feel this is a scum lynching an easy day 1 lynch so Moony is probably town, I'm not saying he can't be scum, but this lynch looks a little too sus for me it just feels like atleast 1 scum is on this lynch. To answer your 2nd post (mobile sucks so i cant quote) GL can still be scum thats true however I personally find you 2 scummier and think the scum is more likely between you 2. I think GL should talk more though, would like more from them. I unlynched without lynching because I wanted to see your answer to my question first (about the JunkoChan read) before I lynched between you or GW.

to answer my earlier question: he has indeed randomly decided moony is locktown because he loosely scumreads someone on the wagon which he can't commit to. i think in writing this that he's basically saying i'm scum/maybe scum with GW but my lack of belief in his scumread of me is probably already pretty transparent.

i also find it pretty farcical that he has GuiltyLion in his "evil sucm voting moony" pile, yet when questioned defaults to null and seizes up, claiming that he nullreads GL and therefore will not be pushing him today. again this isn't coming from someone who's trying to sort GL. this is where i'm seeing signs of possible "scum/scum"/SvS interactions. it's pretty unnatural to be suspicious of GuiltyLion from a gamestate point of view, read his posts (which have been pointed!) and reach a point of "nah, I don't have a read on this dude" and then...not do anything about it.

could you give me a quick summary of your reads? (a tiered readlist would be perfect, otherwise just talk me through your current takes)

GrandWazoo / The Worst > computerfan0 > GuiltyLion > cjv > junko > YellowSnow > Moony

This is scummiest to towniest btw, I'll explain what I havent already stated before but if I miss something or someone wants more info on a read, you'll have to give me a day as I prob won't be active all of today besides rn and most of tomorrow I just got hit with some big projects in school that I need to get done now

compterfan0: never answered my question went quiet though this could just be noobie slot not knowing what to do still find his lynch on me came at a weird time which id why i asked the question and wanted the answer

yellow: seems to be helping town, good contributer,

the GW/TW thing is more or less fine and works out with his PoE.
i still don't understand what's caused him to shift GL up in his reads above computerfan0 and this doesn't feel real
cjv/junko/yellow slots are more or less fine (i think it's strange he feels the need to include the bit about yellow which just involves him randomly writing him off as town but..that's whatever i guess)
having moony as his strongest townread is absolutely, without a doubt, a posturing read. he's dropped his agenda (moony is town with scum tw and/or gw + town gl voting him). his read list is basically composed only to fit that agenda; it doesn't come from someone who's actually trying to work out who's more/less likely to be town or scum in this instance.

[the worst]

i'm... rarely great at catching scum day one, but that's basically what i'm seeing in that slot that's ringing alarm bells.

i'd be keen to see why you think this is town, junko

[the worst]

259

You know I'm never going to read that, right?

the thought "i am so sorry brass" literally crossed my mind while i was writing it.

i just felt i hadn't really shared my thought process enough to be questioning people who are pushing other scumreads than mine :{

[the worst]

i also remembered not to push you for tiered reads
it's good to have you back. <3

[the worst]

@junko - you agree Nineja needs to be sorted. care to wagon him with me?

[the worst]

how do you feel about the actual stuff i commented on wrt his alignment tho? i dig you using my thought process to sort me but i was hoping for some more engagement on his alignment :<

[the worst]

alright if you feel grandwazoo is a better equity lynch i respect that

not sure what excludes {nineja, tw} being t/t from your point of view but i guess that's not really an important subject preflip

[the worst]

c'mon be active

if you're town let's hear what's on your mind. your quickhammer in 1907 was such a shame, i thought you were sounding a lot townier. it was definitely scum motivated.

[the worst]

VOTE: GuiltyLion
not preferred but I can work with this.

this is a pretty bad vote, on the other hand

you just called me a bad D1 lynch and you were right

so I don't see why you suddenly abandon that to wagon on an experienced player

Wagoning you with days left on the clock over a vanity vote? I'll always swing towards a wagon here. This doesn't mean I'm advocating for powerlynching you. :<

One could also say that you are defending your lurking scum buddy.

SCUMPOST ALERT

do you think this is a valid scumpost in the newbie queue? I recall having the exact same sentiments towards experienced players defending other slots in my earlier days. I guess I can go see what meta YellowSnow has.

Just caught up and I think your points on yellow are probably alright. I owe it more thought.

[the worst]

Nineja (3) ~ tw, gw, gl

ironically his entire scum PoE is voting him. I guess it checks out that slots he's positioning are willing to vote him.

[the worst]

heya junk

you town?

[the worst]

as a general rule of thumb i'd say don't claim unless someone who isn't already on your wagon gives intent to hammer you

[the worst]

once you've caught up, talk me through who you think is town/scum + some reasoning if you don't mind

[the worst]

the fact you just replaced in and like randomly decided people's alignments with no reasoning in a way which pushed the agenda you like...replaced into the thread with...has me like

[the worst]

i'm pretty sure that catchup doesn't come from town. either way like..lol, i'm happy with my vote here.

[the worst]

so i don't necessarily hate your reads but like

1) grandwazoo is towny. your reasoning for this is his first 3 posts are towny to you. you haven't really explained what's going through your mind here; just said you think they come from town. like his rvs post, requesting a vc and the thing about junko's join date are 1% towny at least but i preferred junko taking a stance that they were wolfy. these aren't AI factors yet you're happy to write grandwazoo off as town--this feels like you have TMI.

2) junko is scum until you catch up enough you realise she's not a viable mislynch; you then proceed to unvote her and define your read on her as "meh". this is more positioning than a genuine read fmpov.

3) you scumread me because... you do? you think i might be bussing junko who you no longer scumread? you think i'm aligned with computerfan? like there's virtually nothing on me in your ISO and yet you think i'm scum. this doesn't feel like someone pushing a scumcase against an active player who has scumcased their slot within the last couple of pages. (oh yeah spoiler: i scumcased nineja just before you rep'd in)

4) you think computerfan0 is scummy yet...have nothing to explain about it..

5) you write GuiltyLion off as town for literally no reason


like i know i'm missing things here but like. when i see a catchup i get excited in case it's town because town quite often show that they are working through a genuine process of solving; they second guess themselves, drop down exactly what they're thinking in case they agree/disagree with upcoming posts and in case anyone missed anything. sure, i don't expect a 100,000 word essay from someone who's new to the site. but something somewhat like this is instinct to a townie who needs to find scum and solve the game.

i'm not seeing like, literally any of this thought process from you. the closest thing to it is your trajectory on junko (going from pushing her as scum to nullreading her) but even this isn't town-indicative. it's been talked to death in the thread and i can see it coming from either alignment in a heartbeat.

[the worst]

... and those answers are deflections of my questions, which don't have any more alignment-indicative content.. :/
once you're done catching up lmk; we can talk through some stuff.

pedit: once you're caught up show me what makes you think that, if you don't mind
your slot has constantly townread/nulltownread GL without giving any reasons and it's pinging me

[the worst]

bro i'm pretty sure you get nowhere with an attitude of calling people who disagree with you bad.
finish your catchup and we can talk more. if you're town just open your mind and i think it'll hopefully show pretty quickly.

pedit: sounds good.

[the worst]

i mean there's 2 mafia and 7 town so implying people are lying is kinda part of the game

"there is nothing alignment indicative in your posts" vs. "i don't see anything alignment indicative in your post" is a tonal matter. it is extremely obviously coming from my opinion. why do you think my choice of words here is scummy?

[the worst]

are you voting me for being rude or being scummy..? i'm not sure i follow
(also sorry if i did come across as rude, genuinely :/ i think people produce better content under pressure so i do push, but i never mean to outright hurt feelings.)

[the worst]

@Junk this is the most rude I'll get.
If you're town, please get off your high horse. Focus less on manners and more on the game.

[the worst]

Nope

My response to you was fair

You should have said "I dont see anything alignment indicative in your posts". Thats neutral and fair

Stating "there is nothing alignment indicative in your posts" is basically calling me bad

Bro, im pretty sure you go nowhere with an attitude of shifting blame onto others

Look, you seem to be super confrontational anytime someone doesn't agree with you, maybe just take it down a notch or seven.

Legitimately, you are fighting because duck didn't just say "It is my opinion that your posts are not alignment indicative."

There is nothing that says anyone has to be neutral and fair, and I might be grumpy most of the time, but I have no reason to be nice to someone who is coming in hot like this.

I still think your catch up seems fake, and I am not going to pull back on that. It's lots of information, very bare bones analysis, and I'm not liking this as a town slot at this point.

Im not rude to people who disagree with me

Why would I? That sounds pretty silly

I like to be fair and equally rude to those who are rude first

Of all the things to focus on wrt talking to brass at the moment I think digging in your heels and insisting I'm just rude is literally the least productive. Is the way I'm pushing back on you scummy? Do you think my uncharismatic ways are likely to come from scum?

There's a thousand angles we could be talking through but in my opinion your slot hasn't really produced any nuanced, town indicative reads. you've been shading slots, casting easy townreads left right & centre and not focusing on the game in real-time interactions.

It doesn't make you any easier to read. :/

[the worst]

@Junk this is the most rude I'll get.
If you're town, please get off your high horse. Focus less on manners and more on the game.

There's no reason I can't do both

It's pretty silly how you try to talk in an authoritarian voice or something

Just a suggestion friend. wrt 389 basically: regardless of your wincon, what you're doing here is accomplishing nothing....

[the worst]

What I'm arguing is it has nothing to do with mafia and fills pages up with posts which are frustrating to read. If you want to teach me manners, hit me up post-game. It has no place in a thread where we're trying to find an informed minority.

(I actually don't think I'm particularly rude tbh )

[the worst]

if you're insisting it's alignment indicative I only see scum motivation on fluffing the thread up with so much irrelevant clutter :shrug:

[the worst]

I'm going to to check out for now because this conversation is getting closer to personally offensive than productive. some other people can check in. bye Junk.

(as a side note: @brass which weezer song is best? Say it Ain't Gnome or My Name is Gnomas?)

[the worst]

We have a little bit of time to play with. If he finishes his catchup and still looks scummy, a claim is appropriate.. otherwise I'd rather he holds off.

[the worst]

I don't replace out because of rolling scum. I think I was burned out & busy irl and had to replace out due to time constraints there.
here's some examples of my actual scumgame where I got to play past a few pages fwiw

open 733
supp 2017 mafia
starcraft mafia (ended the other day)

you're correct in that i don't enjoy playing scum and my tone/playstyle is very different. but it's not to the point where i can't post at all/replace out due to rolling scum.

brass has seen my scumgame quite a few times and can testify to all of this i think, lol.

[the worst]

I feel a bit bad now because the re-evaluation of those specific reads was pretty towny and he also didn't back down wrt real-time interactions (or reverse his read arbitrarily just because I hard pushed him) which.. feels town indicative. I also feel it took me a while to look towny this game fwiw.

Unfortunately I also baited Junk into making those read changes.

Still not sure I want that lynch today anymore. :/ he's contributing a lot more than Nineja and his mindset is presenting as more likely town to me. he's either like substantially better scum than Nineja or just town.

someone talk to me? I agree with his analysis that his last few posts have been towny. am I going crazy?

[the worst]

Kinda wondering if computerfan0 actually flips red

[the worst]

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76282
I'm starting to remember this game from last year (don't feel like anyone has to read it, I'm just thinking out loud). Sashadin had a similarish quirk of popping in every day to say he was up to date but had nothing to report. It kinda took until d3 for me to lose tunnel vision on other players and realise that his play was really scum-bad-faithy.

Only real reason I'm bringing it up here is because I know it's a flaw of mine wrt reading newbies. Slots like Yyotta's and cf0's do paralyse me a little.

[the worst]

@computerfan why are you even in this game?

@the worst yes you are going crazy

What do you think of the composition of Junk's wagon -- do you also scumread GL and do you think they're likely aligned? Does it look like a bus to you?

If you've got any comments around why you think Junk's more recent posting is likely to come from scum I'd appreciate them too. I'm pretty much on the opposite page atm.

[the worst]

it's a paranoia for lurkers, but I sincerely doubt both mafia players are inactive also

that's probably valid (lol if it's literally Yyotta/cf0) but it doesn't feel like he's trying to lolsolve the game on day one anymore, like I feel a better sense that he's accountable for his townreads and willing to reconsider the weaker reads there if that makes sense?

can you talk to me about how you're reading computerfan0 atm?

[the worst]

Junko......can you tier that a bit harder for me? a PoE of 5 people which includes four "wtf are you doing if you're town"/policy concerns loses games 99% of the time

[the worst]

I kinda want to post-by-post analyse why I am so confused anyone can read Moony right now but those analyses are really annoying and I think the most valid response would be, "ok"

@Junk what do you make of their unvote? How about the way Yyotta is prod-dodging through the game?

also VOTE: computerfan0

[the worst]

First he distances from him, then he townreads him for a silly reason.

why do you call it silly

do you disagree?

Because it's silly.

Like, this post is scummy for GL.

If I'm calling it silly, it obviously means I disagree. Why would I agree with something I find silly.

GuiltyLion feels like is just posting meaningless posts, and he's supposed to be a SE or something right? It wouldn't be scummy for a newbie, but it's scummy for him.

He probably thinks he looks towny for asking questions, but that question doesn't lead to anywhere.

This is eerily close to the concerns I'm having with GL at the moment. He's presentish but when he is here it feels like he's mostly asking questions which he's not really following through on (I'm also not sure I can entirely see what he's up to / where the questions are going or coming from).

I'm kinda waiting to see some greater momentum and trajectory in his reads and what he's pushing but he feels really safe and go-with-the-flowy. I also can't get inside his head which is a bit worrying, given the last time we were both town we were on the same page like. to almost a scary level.

I kinda think this is a pretty towny pickup.

[the worst]

I have no clue, it seems we all are playing the exact same card, and said card is self conflicting.
And at the same time, this "play style" we're currently in has a nice issue where being pushy == lynch.


I propose we try cleaning up the vote slate, and carrying on with actual insights and discussion. Maybe?
UNVOTE: we're not getting anywhere

:shrug:

They seem like a weird person.

His previous posts are what I townread.

Do you think his reaction to being (if I recall correctly) voted once or twice and unvoting, requesting a clean slate, comes from town or scum?

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wrt. Yyotta that concerns me as well. prodging through with odd throwaway comments is very much how she's played as scum. her towngame, she felt different. not leagues different, but it felt like she was pushing something at least.

idk I wish everyone was more activer

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are you not seeing any green at all in his posting?
am I colourblind?

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The rocking up at the 47 hour mark & prodging on repeat combined with complete lack of care wrt vote/solving from cf0 is starting to hard ping me

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Can you explain why did you suddenly stop scumreading me?

Weren't you townreading computer?

I'm still scumreading you. I was never townreading computer, I'll lynch him today. but I'm far more interested in pushing your angles on why he's scum

Yes you were townreading computer. You said his sudden vote with no explanation is newb townie.

Why are you sheeping me if you think I'm scum?

That's pretty odd.

Why are you worried about me sheeping you if you think computer fan is scum?

Junk, could you please claim?

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please fullclaim.

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VOTE: computerfan0
let's do this

pedit: I think the convo with you has been towntelling on GL's part. bad lynch today imo

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I believe he wholeheartedly believed what he was pushing which is the most important part

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also his paranoia of you/reaction to your rep in reminded me of my initial reaction as well

I think it's towntelling

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Junko get your vote elsewhere while we wait for a cc please

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I believe he wholeheartedly believed what he was pushing which is the most important part

...and why did you want me to claim?

Have I not been obviously townie enough?

pretty much, yeah. my paranoia of you only subsided todsy and what GL was saying rang in the back of my mind as a distinct possibility.

he and junko are both townreads of mine, so both of them thinking you were scum contributed as well.

sorry.

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UNVOTE:

you don't have another scumread to vote?

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I believe he wholeheartedly believed what he was pushing which is the most important part

...and why did you want me to claim?

Have I not been obviously townie enough?

pretty much, yeah. my paranoia of you only subsided todsy and what GL was saying rang in the back of my mind as a distinct possibility.

he and junko are both townreads of mine, so both of them thinking you were scum contributed as well.

sorry.

lol

big mood

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I thought L-2, though I'm not sure. I'll check.

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Subject: Newbie 1866 - Canine Mafia [GAME OVER]

In case day ends quickly some advice for TPRs (just general advice, Una/Pingu jump in if you disagree or have more to add)

Cop

-- DO NOT TARGET STRONG TOWN PLAYERS OR PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO "KNOW SOMETHING". they will be night killed and your results will be useless. IME cops are best suited targeting players who are kinda null reads, leaning one way or the other. if you can reach day 3 (let's say 3 town vs 2 scum) and out yourself along with your results, that's an instant town win! even in 4v1, you can push the decision down to a 50/50 lynch. If you do get a guilty it's generally advised to either 1) out yourself instantly, or 2) make it REALLY obvious who your guilty is so if you flip town can lynch them

Neopolitan

-- go for similar targets to docs. not super obvious townies, but also not people who are super shady. do not out your results right away. town power roles and scum power roles both return "not vanilla", so if you do out a NV result it can fuck the town. Try and put them in a scummier range, if anything. If you get a Vanilla result, try and townread them subtly but in a way that we'll notice if you die. If you survive until massclaim this almost nullifies scum fakeclaims.

Tracker

-- target the shady people cops need to avoid! if you track someone to a target and they're not dead there's a decent chance the person you tracked is a town power role. reassess this based on the setup once another power role has flipped / claimed etc. If you track someone to a player who dies that night, out your result immediately as on the balance of probabilities it was the night kill.

Jailkeeper

-- i hate this role you can be a roleblocker or a doctor. if you think you can guess who is most likely to be the scum killer tonight, target them--but this function is a lot stronger lategame IMO. for the time being, be a doctor. try and target players who you would kill if you were scum (priority 1: people who you think might be town power roles. priority 2: very towny players....IMO)

Doctor

-- put on your evil hat and think "who would I kill?", then target that person. As with JK priority#1 is town power roles who you think the scumteam will be on to (generally speaking, scum are better at spotting townies who are playing like power roles than town are. so if you have a suspicion, the scumteam likely do, too). Priority #2 is to target very towny players. FRIENDLY REMINDER if you target a player and they don't die, it is very likely they're town. so try and make it clear but not too clear with your reads d2 that you've "cop cleared" them.


The Wiki has shitloads more info but I'm lazy. Google "mafiascum wiki [role name]" and have a good read.

Good luck<3

Since we're pretty close to EoD some general tips for town power roles (stole the copypasta from an old game. if GL or brass have any other feedback please jump in).

@Junk I won't be giving any advice on who you should target. That ends up manipulating the NK.

wrt cops/neaps I'd shoot into {computerfan0, Yyotta} before anything else.

Whatever you do don't try to out-guess everyone. For example if you're a Jailkeeper, you're very unlikely to correctly guess the member of the mafia who will be making the nightkill. Play doctor instead.

If you're a cop, whatever you do, do not target players like {brass, yellow, me} with decent high town equity based on a stray suspicion. these are doctor targets not cop targets. we're a lot more likely to be NK'd than slots who aren't suspected. and if the reads on our slots are wrong it's more likely to come out in a later day phase (the question "why is the day one town MVP still alive?" is always a valid question. they could be totally wrong on their reads / pocketed, or they could be scum).

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Obviously check this advice against your own metrics. In that game, the Jailkeeper (following my advice) targeted the deepwolf who wasn't performing the night kill on night one, and then accidentally successfully guiltied the other scum member. in newbie 1905 u r a person 2 weighed up the options & ended up agreeing with my advice to cop Yyotta night one. he guiltied her.

if anyone has any arguments on this I'd save them for postgame. even if you don't trust me at least use that post as a theory / "devil's advocate" position.

(also - good luck)

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I mean that slot has produced some 100 posts since I cased it. his initial posting was pinging me but I think the second onslaught was really very towny. I also have no interest in lynching a claimed TPR day one who I'm no longer hard scumreading (for the record: if I was still heavily scumreading him, I would be handling this pretty differently).

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I feel like its something I've addressed briefly a couple of times so I'll try and elaborate a bit more. lmk if I'm missing your angle or you disagree.

The concept that "scum go for low hanging fruit" is nonsense. It's not scummy to wagon lurkers full stop. It's scummy to wagon lurkers at the expense of pushing slots that need more pressure / are more viable scum lynches.

Trying to get into the head of a lurking player & read their content as AI is very towny. It's something that can be done as scum (coincidentally attaching intent to lurk slots is one of my stronger quirks as scum, for example) -- but it's something that town HAS to do sooner or later. ftpov the fact that he's analysed the gamestate, bitten the high postcount high energy players he didn't like (me + GL) and been willing to reevaluate where he's tunnelled and come out with a suggestion that we lynch a low content slot who's contributions he's actively scumreading actually strikes me as pretty towny


it's rarely a matter of saying "scum do this, scum do that, ERGO x is scum" and more often a matter of sitting back and thinking like "scum could do this, could town do it too? do I feel like this person is town or scum for doing it?" and from that perspective I think that this is the type of conclusion that could come from either alignment, but I think the way he's got there is >rand town

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in fact Junk still wants a GL lynch. it's me who's come around on that one. you know what I mean I hope - his re-evaluation without completely backing down on what he's pushing has been solid and I don't think it's the kind of stuff it's easy to fake as scum in real-time.

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(some coffee for me too please!)
I got a lot more from talking with Junk after he stopped calling me rude all over the place, I'll admit.

OK so we're closer to deadline. I think computerfan0's prod dodging has displayed bad faith at this point. Moony.... in some eccentric way kinda? played the game even though I didn't townread it and Yyotta ie currently v/la so can't play the game. that's an outright policy lynch, NQA. that slot also has no contributions with others whereas I think the way people have acted around a computerfan0 lynch should be interesting depending on how he flips.

It's not exactly a policy lynch, no. It's just that I think you're town. I think brass is town. I think junk's town. I think Junko and GL are leaning more town than scum.

The active slots are creeping up my readlist.

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Apologies. Yellow should be in that "I think x is town" pile as well.

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Well played Junko, gg town!

I'll do a bit of a write-up when I'm more awake. This was quite an interesting game.

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I hope this gets nominated for scum performance of the year.

It was a good scumgame but I probably wouldn't go that far.

She was pretty quickly cleared d1 by the towncore and nobody really thought to reassess it ever. Ducking a cop guilty n1 was an unfortunate product of the rand and who her scumbuddy needed dead.

It was also a 0 pressure LyLo where I kinda think this game was largely not ready to be finished. But I'll do a write-up because I'm kinda speaking in broad sweeping teems which won't be convincing or help anyone

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Okay, so Junko did play very well, but there were indications were someone to have gone back and analyzed their play.

^ This.

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Basically those two things are why we lost LyLo yeah. fyi neither of them are against the quality of Junko's game. I've won scumgames I consider good by pocketing a single towny so hard (having them CONVINCED you're town) that they lolvote off the bat in LyLo. it's a fully respectable strat.

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Got some IC ramblings drafted. I'll go sanity check them then post. They also coincidentally include a lot of the things I wanna comment on in the short term.

In the interim I learned a bit from this game too.
I'm not used to being NK'd anymore and wish I hadn't been part of the problem wrt lazily townbinning Junko; that was game-losing.

I also should have been bolder calling GL scum and pushing for that lynch d1. Scum is always a good lynch on day one and I think that'd kinda skipped my mind in favour of nostalgia over how much fun we have as t/t.

Sorry for my impact on the loss. @GW this isn't your fault and I'll talk to that later.

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(Only if Brass is allowed to be annoyed about it, because that's also understandable. But nobody else is. Your Judge has spoken.)

This is a very town irl post. No point in being salty or annoyed; I do have constructive feedback but definitely concur.

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Junk

Credit where credit's due: your reads on catchup were very good. In retrospect you came off as pretty towny as well but you started on the back foot in that slot.

Your early scumread on Junko was GOAT. your townread on cf0 was a pretty hot take but was also good. your early scumread on me is still an enigma to me but you talked yourself out of it in really good time so no harm done.

One piece of advice I'm inclined to give is to check the way you approach a community in more of an holistic sense.

i heard bad stuff about mafia scum

i should have listened and not engaged in these aids, lol

I know stuff like this doesn't feel overly pertinent but coming in with this kind of attitude does have a direct correlation to the way you end up conducting yourself as town

if you'd spent more time working thru the fact town needed more time to sort you (your pred was straightup wolfy) and focusing on The Solve things might've gone differently.

I'm not much inclined to tell people what to do. But in a lot of ways, you find what you look for - I do hope you decide to give this community a go but I'm not sure this game was a fair chance.

computerfan0

If you stick around/come back I hope you decide to play more. All I can say is just try to post more and get engaged with the game. I know it's a little confronting jumping into mafia but you have 6/9 teammates and 2/9 people who need to look like your teammates. We all got your back.

u r a person 2

spicy rep in my friend
this game needed a decent tableflip and you provided it.

carrying thru the scumread on GuiltyLion was something that really needed to happen and I think your Presence itt was something which had the potential to fix the issue this town had with not gelling together all that well.

Constructive feedback hhhnn it's hard to give because I think you were roughly the strongest town player during d2. If anything maybe focus on the Holistic Solve (I need to trademark this) which is incredibly hard to do when people aren't communicating all that well

I think with a bit more focus on slots like {Yellow, brass}'s d1s this might have been closer to a solve on d2. Weighting and reassessing the middle of your read list (aka "if I assume this nullreads is town what % of the time am I wrong?") is one of the more challenging parts of solving but it's super rewarding.

GrandWazoo

Being town in 3p S U C K S
look the obvious feedback is obvious. don't lolvote in LyLo. yes I know, groundbreaking stuff, thanks

I think some people are super fussy in LyLo sometimes to the detriment of the game and/or their own sanity. I'm pretty lazy in LyLo as well so I get the appeal of going "fuck it, I'm wrong or I'm right, BAM"

one thing I want to highlight is there were a few weaknesses in Junko's play which I think shone. brass had also indicated an eagerness to lynch her earlier and after suddenly waking up with her in 3p I think the fact that he never had a chance to case her suddenly becomes quite a lot more relevant. if his case is wolfy he's exposed himself. if his case is sound maybe your read is worth reconsidering.

Fwiw in 3p I like to more or less forget my reads from the rest of the game. Not come from an angle of "either of these guys could be scum who do I want to lose to less?" but to better check my reads on them.

I know meta isn't the be all & end all of scumhunting but for example if you dig up brass' previous scumganes, you'll see he's way outside of his scumrange here. Junko on the contrary had previously exhibited a very fluid style of working through her reads which was largely missing from this game.

It's not easy to give feedback at this level but I feel like there were little red flags to find. srsbsns LyLo is completely over hyped, but I think there's a benefit in doing some due diligence.

I'll swing it this way: it's not your fault we lost. but if you'd turned around at the last moment and decided to give brass the benefit of the doubt, it could've been your fault SCUM lost!

YellowSnow

Yeah this mislynch sucked
You were pretty obvtown d1 and GL massively exposed himself by taking you down

All I can say is communicate more. Charisma is optional but if people feel bad about scumreading/mislynching you then scumfucks will have to work a load faster to knock you down.

Junko

Good scumgame.
I struggle a little giving ways to improve as scum so sorry if this is a bit wishywashy. Next time you roll scum if you come across a player who puts any stock in meta, you might be in trouble.

I'd... recommend rereading your old newbie game and looking at the way you present your thought processes particularly when under pressure

It's not something that's easy to emulate but I think it's a decent step on your path to be Truly Fucking Terrifying

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also

@GL ILY man and you're an awesome influence on this game
one day you're going to totally finesse me as scum and I'll have ptsd from it and I can't wait for that day

@brass sorry for my part in talking you out of casing Junko earlier. It was a good read. there's definitely a parallel universe where you dunked on her d1 and people listened imo but I also understand the demotivating factor in that people were sorting other slots and leaving her in the corner.

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my fingers
they bleed

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AND FINALLY

Thank you for modding NSG!!
♪ ♬ ヾ(´︶`♡)ﾉ ♬ ♪

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@brass sorry for my part in talking you out of casing Junko earlier. It was a good read. there's definitely a parallel universe where you dunked on her d1 and people listened imo but I also understand the demotivating factor in that people were sorting other slots and leaving her in the corner.

I was going to get a picture of the Duck Dynasty guys, but then I realized I would forever be connected with a picture of the Duck Dynasty guys for a dumb joke

....worth it.
always worth it.

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I just always feel so tired/scared/drained checking the thread, whereas when I'm town it's fun

This is exactly what I was looking for in our real time chat. I was like "OK gl but where is the tiger within?!"

Duck, was this our first game where both of us were town that I actually finished?

my god
I actually can't think of any others offhand

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here I am

there you are!

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Yeah, it was an intentional ploy here. I did a quick check pregame and realised a lot of you all were new, and decided to lower my usual postcount/assertion level on that basis.

I'd be interested to see if anyone had any feedback on this. (I've annoyed a couple of people about this... )

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I'd be keen to play with you again as well, GW.

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Oh my God yeah that was fun Hahaha.

Thanks for the write-up Junko -- lots of really good points in there. I hope we get to play again.

FYI I believe a lot of the rep outs didn't pick up their role pm here which means TPR hunting via nonconfirmations isn't all that effective long-term -- but that was a super lucky shot from that pov. ;n;

I agree games are better without rep outs but the size of setups is pretty integral to balance. also if scum are willing to take a chance on their own deductions they DESERVE the extra info imo. very bold call and well played. <3

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Thor and I have a habit of disagreeing but that's pretty funny/clever

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I disagree with that.

He's a fairly conflict oriented player but by Odin he's good and his self imposed posting restriction is kinda entertaining/jarring in an undislikeable way

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ok sweaty