Newbie 1909 | Scheme | Over

[teacher]

IC Intro, adapted from many others

Hey everybody! I'm teacher, your Inexperience-Challenged (IC) player for the game (it's my second time)! That means I am here to lead by example and answer your questions along the way. I will be playing to my win condition to the best of my ability, but if you have questions about Game Theory or Da Rules, I am required to answer them honestly, and to be clear when I am speaking as am IC vs. as a Player. Just as an FYI, I am a teacher with limited daytime access, but I will be signing on at night every night to give thoughts and respond.

Here are some helpful links (a lot of them from our helpful wiki):

-> Forum Rules and Guidelines
-> The Glossary
-> Commonly Used Abbreviations
-> The Newbie Guide
-> Articles on How to Play Well (be sure to check the dates these were written/updated, as good advice changes over time)

And here are some helpful tips:

->

Try to check in at least once a day.

Besides the activity requirements listed in Plotinus' original post, it's just necessary for a fun and healthy game that everyone

plays

. If you post very rarely, or only post a little bit at a time, you may get scumread for lurking. Even if you are not scumread for it, what's the fun in playing a game where multiple people are hardly participating?

->

"Site Meta"

is the description of how people on Mafiascum like to play mafia. Things can be different on other online mafia sites, or if you play IRL, so it's good to know what's expected of you on this site. These aren't "rules", per se, but if you don't follow these guidelines it is likely things will go poorly for you on MS. Some examples are...

--->

Give "intent to hammer"

when you want to place the final vote on a player. This gives time for that player to give a final plea and to claim their power role, if they have one (or if they are lying scum). If, after that player has posted, you are still sure you want to hammer them, go ahead and place the final vote. It is also common courtesy to declare "L-1" ("1 Vote away from lynch) when you place the penultimate vote on a player.

---> Don't claim your role until you are in danger of getting lynched - usually, you want to keep it a secret right up until someone gives intent to hammer. Sometimes, everyone will agree to claim in a "massclaim".

Other than these situations, do not make your role obvious,

even if you are a vanilla townie, as claiming makes it easier for scum to kill power roles at night.

--->

Do not fake claim a power role as town!

While it may help you avoid getting lynched, you might cause a real PR to out themselves by counter claiming - then the mafia will know who the PR is, and you will probably get lynched for lying to town. Feel free to fake a claim as scum, though, if you think it would help.

--->

Don't vote for yourself.

There are very rare occasions where this is helpful in non-newbie games, but usually only for scum, so if you do it here you will certainly get scumread for it.

->

Mafia is hard!

As town, it can be hard to figure things out, and stressful when people think you're scum.

That's okay!

Just share your thoughts on who you think is scum as they come to you, and don't be afraid to change your mind. As scum, it can be hard to lie convincingly, and stressful when people think you're scum. Don't let that scare you! Try to think of what you would post if you were town, and don't be afraid to "change your mind".

-> This is a game.

Have fun!

-Teacher

[teacher]

VOTE: Loopdan

I don’t know what happened back in your day, but according to Highlander there can be only one elephant avi, and I kinda think it goes to the guy whose username is irrelephant.

On that note, you should all get Avis - it is a courtesy form of “facial recognition” for posts. And you should also kindly answer these questions:

1. What is your experience at Mafia
2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum
4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or town

[teacher]

1. What is your experience at Mafia
2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum
4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or town

1. RL years ago; appr 13 forum games in the last year.
2. I effort obv!town (but have a lot less time during the school year)
3. I effort obv!town (see above).
4. Motivations, probabilities, and associations. For each post, I try to ascertain the motive behind it. Does it seem town-motivated or scum-motivated. To be sure, both town and scum have similar objectives, but they arent overlapping. Town is not as afraid of being lynched, because there will be a mislynch at some point; scum knows that their death is 50% of a loss. Town wants to out real analysis to advance the game; scum wants to repeat information that everybody knows so they can appear to be helping without actually doing it. Another key area of difference is in probabilities. Here, I cant say it much better than a strategy article from the Wiki (link). I'll speak more on associations tomorrow if Im still kicking.

[teacher]

(1+ page)

this may just be the townread post of the game so far.

Also fair warning while I am not teaching this week I am drinking. Hard.

[teacher]

Ebwop. “Towniest post”

[teacher]

UNVOTE: please


I mean I like to live dangerously and all but I feel that was too much and proving a point???? I’m past useful today but we should make sure there is a tomorrow et al.

[teacher]

EBWOP: @Amzela. Sorry for getting the name wrong.

That said, since she removed her vote, I'll put Loop back to L-1 until he answers my question about dicideaq.

VOTE: Loopdan

@Loop, You said you voted yourself to prompt discussion about

this

game. Don't you think it would have been better to talk about what you perceived as a dicideaq scumslip rather than your self-voting?

I think this may have been the unannounced hammer.

[teacher]

EBWOP: @Amzela. Sorry for getting the name wrong.

That said, since she removed her vote, I'll put Loop back to L-1 until he answers my question about dicideaq.

VOTE: Loopdan

@Loop, You said you voted yourself to prompt discussion about

this

game. Don't you think it would have been better to talk about what you perceived as a dicideaq scumslip rather than your self-voting?

I think this may have been the unannounced hammer.

[teacher]

VOTE: Dicideaq

That was a really wierd naked vote as only your second post in the thread.... And I agree with LD's take on the intro.

[teacher]

I'd rather not give specific answers to this and help out scum who may be in their first game.

But its far more likely to help town who may be in their first game. Like 75% more likely.

[teacher]

Also how important are avatars, @Teacher?

They arent required but it is strongly recommended/preferred. Again, its just a way to have a visual recognition rather than just your name by the post.

[teacher]

Can I get an explanation first about dicide's alleged scumslip?

I promise I'll explain but I want everyone to check in first.

LoopDan is town for this consistency, and the motivations I know to be underlying it. But really, self-voting? Seems janky.

[teacher]

Real question: Is there a way to tell when the game has moved out of RVS?

No. Ive seen it end on page 1 and continue on page 10. Rough rule of thumb is (playernumber)*6 -- seems about right

[teacher]

If Loopdan is voting dicideaq seriously, this would mean Loopdan would explain their voting and what is obvious about dicideaq's scumslip, no?
If they're not (which it seems like so) how does this start happening?

The scummy part of dicideaq's post related to the questions, which are still pending for other players. So Dan doesnt want to talk about the reasooning, because he wants to get the same information from the other slots once they confirm or replace-in. Its a really pro-town thing to do.

[teacher]

What do you think of the LoopDan situation?
Do you think dicideaq made a scumslip?

I think I have answered this in my other rash of posts, but
1. I really dislike the self-vote. I think it can be powerscum claiming a lack of defensiveness and knowing that the first D1 wagon normally falls apart, and that people have a subconscious block against coming back to a slot they have voted and moved away from. But.....

2. I do think dicideaq's answers were scummy, and I find LoopDan's position on the questions really pro-town. Enough to outweigh the self-vote, which could just be his contrarian personality response to my IC post saying it is normally a terrible play.

[teacher]

english is a really tough language

What is your native? Francais?

I liked your interplay with LD quite a bit, so thank you for the effort even if it was frustrating.

[teacher]

Ive now completed my readthrough of the game. Oddly, Dan was playing differently than my suspicions. I do scumread Dicideaq's answers to the question ,and I thought Dan did too but didnt want to explain why until the other slots had posted. Instead, he *says* he was just trying to bait easy votes out of the experienced players. Interestingly, he says this in the midst of a 1v1 with an experienced player who did follow him.

The new story earns Dan less town points than I had been awarding. EGL is now my hardest town for the consistent desire for information and using the vote to pressure well.

@Clem what are your thoughts on Amzela?

Hopefully less of the demon rum today...

[teacher]

ISO'd?

Look up top of this, to the right of where it says Post 144. There is a link that says ISO. That link ISOLATES the post author, so you can see my (and just my) posts in the thread all at once. On the absolute bottom of the page, you can also set up double or triple ISOs. A good way to read people's trajectories over the course of longer games/multiple days.

[teacher]

I wanna day Dici because I haven’t ISO’d Clem and gut feelings are scumreading

him

who is the him I bolded here.

[teacher]

completly forgot what they’re called

gifs. Thanks for the third game info. What have you learned in terms of how to hunt scum?

[teacher]

@Teacher, is it kosher to vote yourself in RVS for shits and giggles or is that still really scummy?

I won't make you wait for Teacher to reply to get your answer. The answer is no, you shouldn't self-vote for shits and giggles. It's almost always anti-town.

Obviously I thought it would help me sort players, and it was still an RVS wagon, so I didn't think it would be harmful. I gave it some thought. For example, I wouldn't have put myself at L-1 if Teacher wasn't already on the wagon, because he had already said he was drinking heavily, and if he was scum he might have been able to get away with a "drunk-hammer." Yes, I've seen that happen.

One last note then I'm moving on from this... I would not have done it if I was the IC, because it really isn't something we should be encouraging newer players to emulate. Clem and I were once in a game where Hark (who was a newer player and was town) scum-claimed in his first post and it destroyed any hope of town finding each other day1.

Just because Im an IC, I will repeat these same thoughts -- they are right in my view, and how I would have answered the question. Again, there is no hard and fast rule and I have seen it done, but I strongly discourage it and think it detracts from the sorting, because the conversation becomes fairly mechanical and theoretical rather than sorting.

I wanted to add a bit on the "drunk-hammer" topic as well. Yes, I have seen scum lol-hammer. Ive even done it. But Ive seen it more often from vapid town OR town PRs looking to hide from a nightkill because of the suspicion they know it will cause. In other words, if only scum did scummy things, then mafia would be a heck of a lot easier game to play.

Finally, Im liking Dan's lampshady-ness about the scum aspect of the play and the thought process.

[teacher]

yes his wagon jumping early on makes him look opportunistic to me (speaking of Clemency).

Im pushing back on this concept a bit. He only made two votes, and both were fairly early in terms of both the game -- by post 31. I think Clem may perhaps believe more in RWS than RVS --> my own acronym for random wagoning stage, where you hop around a bit to get actual reactions to pressure. I dont think hopping around on the first three pages is >rand scum behavior.

Im not moved either way out of rand on Clem yet. I get where he is coming from on Dan, but think its missing the forest for one tree. Im trying to get a better sense of his reads outside of the tunnel.

Amzela seems like an innocent new player, I'm not v good at reading those

Fair enough, EGL?

[teacher]

completly forgot what they’re called

gifs. Thanks for the third game info. What have you learned in terms of how to hunt scum?

Flippy - since you quoted the thing two above this, I know you saw the question. Please answer this and Dans pending questions as well.

[teacher]

@teacher are you asking my opinion on amzela or Clem his opinion on me?

Clem on you.

[teacher]

hi TTTT and flippy, hi everyone else. will be making catchup post later

Had you been following? This seems might fast to have seen that Dan was TTTT?

[teacher]

Also welcome. Also today I fly back to the states so won’t be phone skimming as much.

[teacher]

@teacher are you asking my opinion on amzela or Clem his opinion on me?

Clem on you.

i don't think he's posted enough for me to give a clear read or anything yet
but i like him

How fast would you say you normally form reads?

[teacher]

@Teacher - I don't think I've read any of your games. Are you a better town or scum player?

i think slightly town but I enjoy both. Newb 1882 and mini normal 2016 are good examples t and s respectively.

[teacher]

Although I do like his most recent reply (186).

i was having a mind meld w you on the initial reaction, but 186 didn’t swing it back to me. 169 (sorry no links from the airport) felt to me almost like someone who saw the disconnect between the skim claim and the reactions post too late after posting, so immediately said it didn’t work.

I’m missing Amzela - I think that slot needs some real time talk. Next time you come on, can you let me know a time to plan to meet you and just live chat? Like it’s now Saturday - let me know any time Monday that works for you and I can shake free for a bit.

[teacher]

clemency -

child -

dici -

Why these three people only? Why them in particular?

[teacher]

clemency -

child -

dici -

Why these three people only? Why them in particular?

Never mind saw 182. Trouble with phones

[teacher]

Lol sorry one of those situations again where I was replying when you were posting. My bad. Smartphones are wonderful things, no?

They are, and no worries at all. What I am about to say is just a general point that I have thought about saying once before this game, and this reminded me. I honestly don’t care here.

The general/IC teaching point is that it is considered poor form to answer a question directed to someone else - the questioner may be seeking a specific response from a specific person. For example, sometimes I have seen people repeat questions pages apart to see if the answers stay the same or evolve. In that circumstance, though it may be tempting to be “helpful” and link back to the old answers, try not to. Likewise, I might have been aware of 182 and seeing if UR2 would point to that after his roadtrip or offer a different story (I wasn’t, but I could have been)

Again here no harm no foul at all because it was pure error. But a good opportunity to make a worthwhile general point.

[teacher]

Teacher, why are you IC-posting instead of commenting on the dici's L-1?

Sorry just landed. I thought your explanation of hammer covered what was needed at the time, though I’m happy someone invited as I think it’s a bit early in the day and want to give time for dicing return and all. But thank you for emphasizing the intent point - I like that you even used the same bold I remembered from 1906. Now waiting on my wife for customs

[teacher]

Amz- what time zone/utc are you?

[teacher]

Loop has a point. Teach should have commented on dici L-1.

What should I have said that Dan didn’t say when he voted? I normally do add in there but he said it.

[teacher]

That one I want to type up on a laptop. The short of it is that I townread most of the wagon so was happy with the lynch. I’m still not opposed to it just think we have time. I’ll comment at more length in about two hours.

[teacher]

230 responses to 227

[teacher]

Is it okay for us to say when someone last logged in?

For what it is worth, questions like this are why you have a PM button, as simply asking them can convey the same information. And to be clear, I am talking about PMing the mod, not me or any other player.

But to answer the question, yes. I actually asked my mod, and the list-mod, the same question in essence during my newb game. Their answer was that non-substantive details like "was online" or "posted" was fine. See the discussions about activity section of the ongoing game rule, and on matters like this, dont hesitate to PM rather than post about it.

[teacher]

UNVOTE: please

Did it the same just for funnies. But I dont want a lynch for a bit more anyways.

[teacher]

2 hours behind you if you’re in Bethesda, MD.

Perfect, see you Monday morning-ish your time. Thank you.

[teacher]

@dicideaq when you get back who is one player on your wagon and one off you think is scummate? Why?

EGL talk to me about this. Can you show me anything in your history marrying the 1:1 position? Because I STRONGLY agree with it (and can provide several links) so am just curious, as I hadnt seen anybody else be this explicit about it before.

[teacher]

@teacher loopdan doesn't know your thoughts

Again, what should I have said. The question was for you. I had nothing to say about Dici L-1 at the time. You clearly thought I *should* have had something to say. So what *should* I have had to say?

[teacher]

You were the first vote on him after all, so I'm curious how that wagon forming up on an absent player works for you.

Here are my thoughts: I was entirely comfortable/happy with the wagon in real time, but less so on reflection.

I think the major change from this afternoon to now is a realization of how much my rhythm of the game clock got screwed up by the holidays/vacation/rum/etc- I was taking long breaks away from the game and then spate posting two or three times a day when I normally do one. Basically it felt like several days had transpired since I began the wagon when it really had been only one -- and one weekend vacation day for everybody at that. So it does seem almost too fast, and certainly too fast for a hammer to be warranted.

EGL is my hardest townread, and Dan the second. They were on the wagon, so I thought the wagon was fairly strongly town. It also felt organic, like I could grok when people came onto it and why. Ordinarily, the lack of a counterwagon would have thrown me a bit. But here it didnt because the two most active players - Dan and EGL - are also my two townreads. So I perceived this as a situation where scum dont really have a push. The one exception to this sense and my overall happiness with the wagon this afternoon was UR2's Vote - that vote raised questions for me that would have been a possible clem defense if Dici flipped green.

Basically this afternoon I was happy with a Dici flip for a reason that seems callous -- if red, which I think is >rand, great. IF green, still not bad. I do believe in the 1:1 on and off wagon, so a green flip would have told me to reexamine my townreads. But given that Dici has not contributed any scumhunting OR (and the OR is in fact important here) claimed VLA to return at a date certain, even a green flip would have also removed a liability. This a lesson I learned a little later in my time on MS, but it makes sense to me. D1 and D2, you should of course try to scum hunt. But you should also get rid of town liabilities -- nullish folk that scum wont kill. Town liabilities should not make it to lylo because (1) they are an easy mislynch for scum to push and win the game, and (2) they havent been invested enough to have game-saving reads themselves. A discussion of this theory is here.

But the fact is that Dici still has time to come back, and I was not properly acknowledging the limited real life time that has passed.

[teacher]

That and there was something about where scum typically appear on wagons, but I can't remember the vote numbers. Is voting analysis in that regard still a thing?

So the 1:1 rule is statistically valid, as in meaningfully more likely than 2-on-the-wagon, which in turn is meaningfully more likely than 2-off, in a 7:2 game. So yes, I really really do incorporate such data into my reads post-flip (this was going to be part of the 'associations' point I made D2 in response to my own game-start questions)

As for position, I believe the third slot is considered scummiest -- "Rule of three" -- but I dont put as much stock in that. It is slightly +rand scum, but not enough to be a valid difference.

[teacher]

For whatever it's worth I'm not a big fan of "one on, one off." Yes, it's probably true the majority of the time on day1 in Newbie Q games, but there are exceptions and I'd advise not gambling a lynch on it being true, especially with lurkers who aren't voting.

For whatever its worth, when gambling, play the odds. If something is true a majority of the time, then at least factor it into your decision-making.

(and I say this after having just won a lylo by lynching the second OFF D-1 wagon player, which only occurs in >10% of games -- Bottom line, take wagon position into account, but only as one piece of data to be weighed like the rest of it).

[teacher]

@child - have your views on Clem evolved? Where/why?

[teacher]

completly forgot what they’re called

gifs. Thanks for the third game info. What have you learned in terms of how to hunt scum?

Flippy - since you quoted the thing two above this, I know you saw the question. Please answer this and Dans pending questions as well.

Well the only thing I can think of is just process of elimination like I said I have a very genuine town read on you right now and loop I have a tr on cos of the self vote & his back & forth with Clem. I don’t believe I saw another question, I thought I answered everything else

Dan's question was in 153 asking for you to post reactions to the game live.

Your answer - "process" of elimination - also didnt answer my question -- "how to hunt". My question is HOW you eliminate scum - why you have a TR on me, or any other reads at all that you provide after answering Dan's request for reactions.

[teacher]

@child - have your views on Clem evolved? Where/why?

not really. none of his posts are that amazing to change my mind, still a scumread. it seems that he is doing some sort of play but i dont really understand it at all.

Then why did you follow him onto that wagon rather than push him? I just find it odd youd join a wagon with your biggest SR without saying there has been an evolution.

[teacher]

That's supposed to happen in the thread, right?

All conversation should be in thread. IF youve developed a relationship with someone to the point you have discords, etc, just make sure ANYTHING game relevant stays in there.

[teacher]

i just think she's 51% town

Since this is the second time this has come up (EGL was the first, I think, with Dici being 50.50), I just wanted to note the actual statistics.

For a random town player in this game, any other slot is 75% likely to be town. Thus, calling someone 50/50 scum or town is actually a fairly strong scumread. I know you all dont mean your phrasing this way, at least I dont think you do, but wanted to point out the gap between statistics and the expressions in use.

[teacher]

TIL don’t defend anyone.

Any advice on how to defend myself and get myself out of this hole I’ve dug? From anyone.

So, general advice, if youre town (which I actually think you are) --> Dont care about the hole youve dug. Ask questions, interact with slots, share your honest reactions (including not only defenses but suspicions -- OK, you think Dici may be scared town, who do you think was pushing them with a motive rather than genuine suspicion?) and try to advance the game as best you can. Town will kill town. That is inherent in the design. Town starts with more time, scum starts with more information. The key is who wins the time v. information trade.

TL/DR - Dont defend yourself. Dont care about the hole. Just play - including sharing your own thoughts and reactions. The more people know you, the better they can make judgments.

[teacher]

What is TL/DR?

Too Long Didnt Read (an attempt to summarize, often as long as the thing summarized in my case )

[teacher]

@child - have your views on Clem evolved? Where/why?

not really. none of his posts are that amazing to change my mind, still a scumread. it seems that he is doing some sort of play but i dont really understand it at all.

Then why did you follow him onto that wagon rather than push him? I just find it odd youd join a wagon with your biggest SR without saying there has been an evolution.

i don't find it weird at all. i have two scumreads, i am gonna vote on either one, even if one is voting on another.

But you had earlier said your scumreads were Dici and Clem, with a lean on Dan. You unvoted Dici and immediately jumped to a wagon that had momentum, but was not even on your past radar. So youd have to have gotten over the Clem read, be willing to join a wagon with him on it, AND gotten over the Dan read, all without commenting on either your Clem or Dan evolution.

[teacher]

i am reading them as separate people and isolating them

Sorry, we now have two threads going. I actually dont mind this so much (the treating Am/Clem as separate reads) so much as what appeared to be an opportunistic wagon jump that was entirely inconsistent with your top 3 scumreads from just a few pages earlier. If that many people are on your scumscope, you might want to get it checked since htere are only 2 in the game, meaning you should target at most 3 reads....

[teacher]

Dici and child. I’ll post a full board list and regions tonight.

[teacher]

Whole Board Reads (in order from 0)

Spoiler: Child

Scumread. I already talked mindmelding with Dan's 191 commentary on the entry, and personally finding 169 even more jarring. But I also REALLY didnt like the 266 and 267 evolution to voting Amzela just as that wagon caught steam. Here is why. Child's 168 gave Dici alot of scumpoints when that was a popular thing to do, but did NOT vote him. Child claimed it was because Dici was at L-1, but Dici wasnt - as the votecount above Child's post (with no votes in between) showed.

In other words, Child's actions did not match his words, and the purported reason for the gap was false. Then, when the "L-1" scare was removed, Child claims to have lost the scumread of Dici -- WITH ABSOLUTELY NO POSTS in the interim. Sorry, flaking out of a game is slightly +rand scum, so this reason to lose a scumread doesnt hold water to me -- especially if you jump over two previous scumleans (Clem and Loopdan) without commentary, to join a momentum wagon on a slot (Amzela) that was OFF what you now claim to see as a mislynch wagon (Dici). Nothing about this vote and evolution makes sense. Nothing. But it does give momentum to a wagon on a slot I feel better about being town than Dici.

Spoiler: URAP2

townlean out of my compromise pool, but still want to sort better. Theres alot of WIM, especially 249 on criticizing his townreads for wanting pressure as undercutting my fear of a pocket from the reaction to my "time out of body" experience, but I like the loose off the cuff reactions and what feels like a consistent, genuine thought process.

Spoiler: Flippy

Pure null, too vanilla and still sounding out the game.

Spoiler: dici

The claimed scum I do feel pretty strongly about this being scum, enough to the point that I am mildly looking for associatives. Part of it is a could different personality things. For example, he was excited enough about the game to be the THIRD player on and posting, with 10. But the contents of that post are scum indicative - it encourages town to stay quiet and not make accusations. Further, the wording just seems a bit off -- I answered first so that people could see a model -- semi-jokish with 2 and 3, possibly some thought with 4. Here, there wasnt joking, and there wasnt any actual insight into catching scum, just an excuse for him lurking. The naked vote 114 and the site-flake dont improve the read. All in all, I find this a pretty standard newb-scum flake when scumread and uncertain what to do about it.

tinfoil associational theory, flaking is all the more understandable if your partner .... child, ahem ... has not appeared yet to discuss in the PT, and does not appear until after you have left

Spoiler: EGL

So town that his middle name is AndCountry. Seriously, take my thoughts in 123, add a little 259 and 309, and youve got a lovely bottle of WIME. Im not going to case this, but if Im wrong about this, you should be banned from the newb queue because powerwolfing this strong is awesome.

Im still tired from the travel and dont want to do Amzela until after we talk in the morning anyways, so I will wrap it up tomorrow. Short version:

Teacher
EGL
Dan
URAP2
_____________Sort Zone
Clem
Amzela
Flippy
____________ Scum Zone
Child
Dici

[teacher]

Kindly prod Dici?

[teacher]

@teacher are you asking my opinion on amzela or Clem his opinion on me?

Clem on you.

i don't think he's posted enough for me to give a clear read or anything yet
but i like him

How fast would you say you normally form reads?

@Clem?

[teacher]

I expected his prod to come at 9am tomorrow.

Might be right -- the new system is 36 rather than 48, but its half time on weekends so I didnt know how it was running -- full time Friday and half for the weekend (would be when I asked). Either way, figured it couldnt hurt to mention, and Plot would handle it as the great mod he is - accurately.

[teacher]

What are WIM and WIME, respectively?

WIM - Want it More. An expression used slightly more commonly on other sites than here. It originally comes from the desire towns normally have more than scum to actually find information and solve the game, whereas scum already have it solved and are just trying to hide. But it also has a connotation of I (slot 1) want slot 2 to continue posting more, because they are helping me and the game state.

WIME - my bad pun/joke.

[teacher]

EH, do keep in minds that the odds of correctly calling a team are like 4%, and I have yet to do it (though I regularly try).

I do want to talk with you after I talk with Amzela though. After I went through the ISO I have a lot less suspicions than I had before, so we should hash my points out with yours after the fact.

[teacher]

11am EST

see you soon.

[teacher]

CFD?

Candidate for discussion? I dont know, never seen this one either.

[teacher]

push a CFD on me or dici. Don't be a bystander.

Calling me a bystander is horribly misrepresentative of my level of participation. Just because Im not voting doesnt mean Im not playing. Also, I'd much rather have Dici lynched than you, and think I can push that through later -- Id rather spend some time nowd sorting outside my reads in case Im wrong.

[teacher]

Cheerio! Hope the family is enjoying the holidays.

Who is your scumread outside of Dici?

[teacher]

(I was going to ask why you were resisting an avatar - something that had actually factored into my townread of you, since I thought scum would have bent to my/clem's requests, but here you appear with a penguin and just spoil my first question )

[teacher]

No worries at all - I saw the dating thing in the intro and managed to go figure out who that was

I appreciate the honesty on the SR. I was troubled by the SR of loopdan, but voting Dici, right after LD on the wagon and as a slot you had been defending. It seemed survivalistic.

You have played with Clem before - does he "feel" the same or different to you here?

[teacher]

Also, another thing I had been giving you towny points for was 213's reaching back to answer my clarifying question about 141. I appreciated the answer - which to me weakened your position in light of the suspicions that had already been aired. It also seemed like a genuine answer of someone who remembered being asked something, but not by whom. But I was curious that you made 203 before this - was that just a mobile pop-in before rereading the thread?

NAI question, what is an anumu?

AI repeat of another slot's question for you - see 258

Finally, feel free to ask me anything at all as well.

[teacher]

@337

Looking scummy can be a good play for town, as it avoids the NK. Just make sure your reads are good enough to warrant the survival. And trusting your gut as to who sounds real is probably what alot of it boils down to -- everybody is inconsistent, the question is whether inconsistencies make sense.

Thanks for the dets on your history with clem.

My read on Clem is that he basically must either be town or partnered with you. I cannot come up with a scum motivation to derail your wagon otherwise. There is a town block forming that I am pretty confident in, so scum!clem derailing town!your wagon would likely put his partner at risk of being wagonned next. I didnt like the fact that he has a lot of bland meh-town reads that allow the flexibility scum want, but I can see a personality consistency there.

[teacher]

@337

Finally, my read of loop dan is complicated. I think he has played pro-town, but not outside of a power!wolf range either. Like I dont like the self-vote, particularly in the newb-queue, because it can (like I said) blow up a wagon to the point that it never returns. But I can also see the town motivations for it. I can also see the town motivations for alot of his other questions, including 258 to you, and the L-1 question to me. He was right that I *should* have had something to say, even if I didnt see it at the time, so checking into it -despite an earlier townread- makes quite a bit of sense. At bottom, I think we are both at a similar place with the other: Town for now, but definitely willing to revisit as needed.

[teacher]

@amz - thanks for the time. I had hoped to get a little more back and forth, but am going to have to step away shortly, so I will look for your answers to 338, but may not be able to respond further at least in the short term.

@board- I have posted the things I was giving town points for (the avi, the reach back to answer a question even though not pressed), but really my light town of Amz boils down to a personality/charisma thing as well as a light associations thing. I like that she is trying, and posting thoughts. I can also see a fundamental consistency of thought with the personality I have constructed with her, even though it comes across with all the contradictions you have noted. Like, @EGL, I think there is 0 chance that Amz's "scared" comments come from scumchat with Dici, but also zero chance that she would be lampshady regarding her own reaction to a scum PM. Associationally, I have a hard time pairing her (though its only D1 so this gets v little weight)

Bottom line: I get why you are scumreading her, and I wont stand in your way. But I think town benefits more from flipping Dici's slot than hers today.

[teacher]

Re: Anumu

Nothing. What's the anumu with you?
(I honestly have no idea. Where are you getting that question from?)

your 213 - "yes i'm chuckling to myself about my animu judge me"

Questions

1. I'm really curious about roles and how games usually try and figure out roles. We know we have a very specific set-up, and I was wondering if there's a general timeline for when we start parsing those out. How does someone even start doing that?

It is generally considered bad form to start openly discussing potential PRs, as that just helps scum. For example, I think I have identified one but have never mentioned it until now. PRs can crumb if they choose, can claim if pressured, and can crumb any results they get so that even if they are NKed after a result but before a claim, the result can be found once their flip is known. There are several threads with recommended PR play for all of the roles we have, and they can generally be located in the wiki. As for Role-sorting, that can generally be discussed AFTER a claim, and in MYLO/LYLO type situations. Mafiascum stresses dayplay alot more than PR play, at least as compared to ToS and other sites, something I really like about it.

2. Timing. Are there general timing rules for question asking?

Nope. Generally, we will want to be at L-1 with intent about 3 days from the deadline to allow time for Role-claiming if any and a consensus secondary wagon to form if needed. But keep asking questions.

3. I'm still trying to make heads or tails of your SR of Child, taken into account that he's a new player. Could he not just be jumping onto wagons?

Sure he could. But that wouldnt explain the L-1 error with Dici. In a past game, Child stressed that he was smart enough to know wagon composition when explaining why he wasnt joining the D1 wagon, so I would be surprised if he simply miscounted. It seemed like a motivated reason not to vote Dici. In other words, part of my SR on child is associational, which is why I want Dici first.

****Now Im off for real******

[teacher]

i have 2 scumreads,

1 if you count loop being nullread/scumlean.

The bolded is just plain false, unless you are lying about your views on Clem and/or Amzela:

• URAP2 - absolutely no comments that I could find.
  
• Flippy - a greeting upon entry in 162, but again no analysis, comments, or questions.
  
• Dici - 168 - scumread. 186 - justifying it. 266 - retracting it for the sole reason of flaking (even though 327 appears to concede that flaking is in itself slightly scummy.) My take from your ISO is that this is a null-scum read.
  
• EGL - again no analysis, comments, or questions.
  
• Amzela - scumread, see 267
  
• Loopdan - "scumread" per 168, "null or a scumlean" per 169, and "nullread/scumlean" per 327
  
• Clem - "scumread" per 168, views not changed per 287
  
• Teacher - We've interacted a bunch, but no stated reads or analysis.

So, from this I have 2 scumreads - Clem and Amzela + 2 null-scums - Dici and Dan, and 0 townreads. This is such a scummy readslist, I cant begin. It gives you flexibility to join most of the wagons that have been mentioned today, and no commitment to positions for tomorrow.

Kindly provide reads and reasons.

[teacher]

Speaking of, through my chat with AMZ, I finished my own whole board list. IF anybody needs me to provide more depth or links on the Clem/Dan/Amz part of it, just ask.

[teacher]

Happy New Year's Eve everyone.

And to you!

[teacher]

I still like this wagon composition and target. I’m out for the night So prob won’t contribute til the morning - whether that’s the RL or in game. @ura2- that is indeed why Clem is still in the “sort zone”.

tHIS IS L-1 so give intent and all that.
VOTE: dici

Happy new year all.

[teacher]

I almost think it’s too obvious a kill for flippy.

VOTE: child

[teacher]

Nah. I asked mine yesterday. FWIW I’m less confident than on dici, just think it’s a distinct possibility.

[teacher]

Also, an IC point:

I noted the L-1 error in child’s 168 in near real time, but decided not to say anything and watch for other additional team-indicative conduct. If I had said something, Child might not have done the Amzela vote that led me to make the questions and possible connection explicit.

Lesson: saying nothing, or timing when you say something, can be as important as the thing you are thinking of saying.

[teacher]

Can we at least deny a hammer until flippy makes some AI posts with reads and reactions, in addition to child.

I feel pretty good about Clem being town from the 1v1 with Dan, the intent on Dici in the first go round, and lying down in front of the Amzela wagon in a way that did not seem white knighty.

[teacher]

EGL, how did the dici flip affect your views on amz?

[teacher]

EGL, how did the dici flip affect your views on amz?

I've been thinking about that a lot, actually. Would you just like the end result or would you like as much of my thinking process as I can remember?

Either - I appreciate the offer but don’t want to make you do make work so just type whatever you feel appropriate.

[teacher]

So, if you cant tell, schools back in session so Im going to be contributing a bit less. Though I wish there was a lot more action in here today than there has been. Perhaps we are all awaiting the lynch, but I want to sort a bit more for future days if needed. I can make up some topics to discuss if people want, like:

I started the day with Clem as my new strongest town-read. There are the reasons I gave in 393, but also more -- namely the night events. I think Loop (posthumous short-name apologies, btw) silently strongly townread Clem coming out of their 1-v-1. There was a tonal degree of affection in his discussing Clem as a "memey" player who doesnt mind that appearance that suggests a townread. I dont see Clem ever killing loop N1.

I think there is a lot more info to be gleaned out of the NK as well as the flip. But I want to call upon @Child to do an NKA uncolored by my thoughts, since the request for his reads are a little outdated after flips (and no doubt the NKA would color his reads anyways). I can share my thoughts after that.

But @Flippy, since I already did share the Clem aspect of my NKA (and VCA), can you speak more on your scumread -- i.e., respond to the points here and in 393 (linked two paragraphs above)?

@Board, anybody else have strong read changes from NKA or catching back up?

PEdit:UNVOTE: please. Why not a 3d time.

[teacher]

Loop was Town actually? Huh. I guess those were actually voting shenanigans.

Emp was on V/LA until New Years right? So if people would be okay waiting until Emp posts after Child too before hammering happens?

Had you read all of page 16 before posting this, or did you jump to the end of the thread for a daystart post?

[teacher]

It very much is, but it is also Jan. 3.

I liked the reaction to the immediate pressure, then again it had to be expected all night after the Dici scum flip, so I think its mostly NAI.

There is one aspect of how today has gone that has me quite nervous, however, which is why I want people (child, Flippy, and the board, respectively) to respond to the three questions in 411.

[teacher]

Id love to not taint the NKA from child, but if you have any changed reads, you can share them without reasons if you want (or we can wait - up to you).

[teacher]

give me a sec more like 20 min

Another slot that has disappeared, even though I appreciated the reads.

[teacher]

@Clem do you have an investigative role which furnished proof that child is the last scum?

Now that its been over a day for Child/Amzela, I will make my position slightly more explicit. My role does not preclude another investigative or semi-investigative. But I have seen only one other possible soft today, and I am not even certain about that. The absence of another result is part of what is making me nervous about the short day: We could lose a PR without the benefits of their results. Further, after the flip at the end of D1, Child would have been the obvious target for most PRs, so I am somewhat surprised at the lack of conclusive proof.

To keep my own role as vague as possible, I will briefly discuss suggestions for all possible inv/semi-inv roles in the spoiler.

I do NOT think people should follow this advice, though, until others (clem/EGL/URAP2/etc) have had a chance to read it and state whether they agree from a mechanical/theory point of view.

Spoiler: PR thoughts

Meaning/suggestions:

• Cop: This one handles itself. You either have an inno, a guilty, or a no result (column A-block target). Crumbing any of the above would be appropriate, as it outs your result if you flip and, even if you dont have one, it attracts the roleblock so that (A3) you can become known!town protected by the unblocked doctor or (A1) the neap is free to get a clear.
  
• Neap: Same/Same: You either have an inno, a 50/50, or a no-result (column A-block target). Crumbing any of the above would be appropriate, for nearly the same reasons. The 50/50 makes sense to crumb because if you die tonight, the 50/50 becomes either known!town or auto.
  
• Jailkeeper: At this point, you are functionally a cop - jailing someone should prevent them from performing the NK, unless we are in column A and scum manages to target the roleblock perfectly. That is pretty darn unlikely last night, with only two PR crumbs (at least that I picked up upon), so your target is likely innocent. That should be crumbed, and your target should not be hit again tonight.
  
• Tracker: You either have a green check (no movement), a red check (movement), or no result (jailkept). A green check is an inno that should be crumbed. A red-check is a 50/50 that makes sense to crumb for the same reason as the neap - if you die tonight, the 50/50 becomes either known!town or auto. A no result likely should
  NOT
  be crumbed because it does not provide additional information/attract a roleblocker (that cannot exist with your role).

Finally, I have to say EGL, while I used the quoted question to start my own PR discussion, it did feel a little like sniffing around for the other PR after my own soft. Indeed, my Wagon analysis moved you down my readslist for the first time, because of everybody on the wagon, it did feel like you were pushing the most to derail it if possible/redirect it to Amzela (the repeat 100% questions and all that). Its not enough to get you out of my townblock for other reasons, but my board now looks like:

Clem
Teacher
URAP2
EGL
Amzela
Flippy
Child

[teacher]

I think there is a lot more info to be gleaned out of the NK as well as the flip. But I want to call upon @Child ..... I can share my thoughts after that.

@URAP2, I'd rather have my NKA out in case I die tonight, and Id rather wait to publish mine at least until Child gets prodded. So I am going to gum up the works a bit today. Sorry (not sorry).

[teacher]

That still doesn't account for ranking someone else higher than yourself.

It’s one way of crumbing a PR result for the flip, though admittedly a very heavy handed one since it sticks out as you noticed. I’ve modeled various ways to crumb today in 429 but also 411 - “I started the day,” “night events,” etc.

Ps - tracker results have not changed. People just speak about them genetically as red checks or green checks.

[teacher]

FWIW, with multiple scum left, a “no movement” result would be a null-check at least as I’ve seen it.

[teacher]

Hahaha I force posted that because I figured there may have been someone waiting for the pagetop

[teacher]

FWIW, with multiple scum left, a “no movement” result would be a null-check at least as I’ve seen it.

What does that stand for?

for what it’s worth.

[teacher]

That still doesn't account for ranking someone else higher than yourself.

It’s one way of crumbing a PR result for the flip, though admittedly a very heavy handed one since it sticks out as you noticed. I’ve modeled various ways to crumb today in 429 but also 411 - “I started the day,” “night events,” etc.

Ps - tracker results have not changed. People just speak about them genetically as red checks or green checks.

Okay I guess that makes sense.

Just FYI, went back to find a historic example of another player doing it: here

[teacher]

I think there is a lot more info to be gleaned out of the NK as well as the flip. But I want to call upon @Child ..... I can share my thoughts after that.

@URAP2, I'd rather have my NKA out in case I die tonight, and Id rather wait to publish mine at least until Child gets prodded. So I am going to gum up the works a bit today. Sorry (not sorry).

you should write your nka with the assumption that child is town because this is today's lynch if he doesn't come back

3 hours until he can be prodded ish, yeah?

yea. And yea I’ll make that assumption and then hammer in the morning if he hasn’t responded to the prod.

[teacher]

Yea, it is 36 - they are both due, but the mod is European I think so its the middle of the night.

Kindly prod both when you wake up?

.

I will hammer around 1pm New York City time unless they have returned/there is ongoing discussion.

Got to type up the NKA/VCA stuff, Ill post that in a bit.

[teacher]

Hey teacher while you're here, what should we all vote on making night phase shorter? I don't think we used to be able to vote on that back in the day.

I always vote short night. But to me thats a life scheduling thing versus a game strategy thing.

[teacher]

VCA/NKA

These combined had a couple of effects: (1) Strengthened town-reads URAP2 + Amzela, and (2) weakened town-read of EGL. Before writing this up, I want to stress that I still think Child is the last scum, and I think I am somewhat falling victim to the fallacy mentioned right before the hammer yesterday, of doubting accurate townreads because scum is letting the game stagnate. But for purposes of this exercise, I am assuming town!child. Also, the below does not mention Amzela's disappearance since daybreak, which largely negates any benefit mentioned here.

Spoiler: NKA

Loop was somewhat of a surprising kill target, as he was not a universal town-read. The universal townreads were me and EGL. (see, e.g., 205). Both because I am the IC, and because I steered the lynch to Dici, I expected

NOT

to be the NK target, because scum would expect me to be protected. So I kind of expected EGL to die. The fact that he didn’t despite the strength of the townreads (from all who had commented) is somewhat surprising/worth weakening my townread. (Not that much, however, because Dici’s naked vote on Loop had pretty much townspewed Loop anyways – but scum couldn’t know that for sure).

The counter-argument – and, to be frank, in my view the better argument – is that Loop was killed simply to frame town!Flippy. Scum last night knew they needed to make it to a D4 Lylo. If Child is indeed town, framing flippy could line up two lynches on low-ish hanging fruit. An EGL kill would have pointed towards Amzela, at least on the surface, but Clem/me/URAP all had townleans there (plus see the VCA below). In short, a town!amzela mislynch was way more uphill than a town!flippy one. And if Child is scum, Loop’s death at least proffers a plausible saving case Child can make at daybreak to redirect attention (part of why I rushed to say “too obvious for flippy”).

Spoiler: VCA

The spoiler title is misleading, as what follows is more wagon analysis that votecount analysis. The Dici wagons were functionally the same, with the only difference being Amzela substituted for Clem.

EGL was on the wagon both times, but he was the most resistant both times as well – Unvoting in 216 after Clem’s intent, really pushing Amzela hard (223, 247, 278), and seeming to resist the culmination of the second wagon on dici 358 – again pushing Amzela 360 --until three different slots pressured the hammer (366).

URAP was on the wagon both times, but unlike EGL as a vocal and enthusiastic participant -- 249, 361. That’s worth strengthening my townread.

Finally, simply from the timing and flow of the wagons, I think Amzela was the townspewed as a LHF counterwagon to potentally save Dici. Again, I this is why I scumread Child’s evolution to voting Amzela and want to lynch him. But even assuming Child flips green, my gut says Amz was a counterwagon to scum, not a double-trapped partner. Gut on this is however weaker than the URAP logic above.

[teacher]

I honestly just don’t want someone hammered when they’ve only made two posts. It doesn’t seem fair especially since he’s brand new and the whole point of newbie games, if I’m not mistaken, is to get people playing, which is why I didn’t vote. He was L-1.

Perhaps because it was 10 posts away, URAP, you might not have seen this context. I actually read EGL's post in 247 as consistent with his habit of paying very close attention to the specific wording of the posts he is responding to, not as an unusual "dont lynch this so Dici can learn" argument. But of course you may be right and all that.

[teacher]

Sounds good to me. We will have to see how Amzela responds to the prod, of course. But leaving the disappearing act aside:

As best I can tell, your scumread of Amzela is explained in 113, 223, and 247. Of these, only 113 is consistent with the gamestate:

• 223 is assuming a Town!dici mislynch.
  
• 247 is similar, with “scum buddying up to a townie.”

What is left is 113’s OMGUS vote on Loop/the theory that Amzela-Dici were the scumpair. On that, I see where you are coming from – why I said I would not blame an Amzela lynch – but I encourage you to read over her body of work. I see a genuinely consistent person who is protective/defensive of newbs

on principle

, but shares the boards doubts about dici

as a personal matter

. Like I said, it is consistent with my constructed personality, but that construction is indeed an assumption.

So thats my responses to your points. I made most of my affirmative town!amzela points late yesterday afternoon -- the slowness to get an avi; the reachback to answer questions; and the genuine feel of the 1v1 (as well as the willingness to do it). Of course, she is the weakest of my TRs, so keep in mind that my confidence level is pretty low.

What else you want to cover?

[teacher]

Before child gets lynched.

Ill hold off the hammer til you say youre good.

[teacher]

@URAP2, while we are just sitting around gabbing, you actually never answered my start of the game questions. You have the feel of someone who has played a bit. Are you an alt of a MS player? Have you played elsewhere? Whats your experience? etc....

[teacher]

@EGL, Im dropping the hammer in about 4hrs if I havent heard from you.

[teacher]

No worries at all. I figured saying something was just the right thing to do.

[teacher]

I can’t live chat. I’m on mobile with kids and football.

I asked about whether she had read page 16 because it was my first true scummy vibe from her - repeating what others had said on waiting for flip and empty filler on loop.

[teacher]

On the Amzela points - Loop was new and Dici two days old perhaps?

On a night phase after lunching child - I’m both less confident and believe in preparing for the worst case scenario.

On my selection of Clem - I will answer first thing D3 if I’m still kicking. Answering now gives away too much of how I select before tonight’s phase.

[teacher]

But having actually read your post in full now I will say that JK should be acting as a pure investigative with one scum left. Odds are far better than ever acting as a protective.

[teacher]

And watcher isn’t a thing in the newb queue. Tracker only sees if the target moved, not if anybody moved around the target.

[teacher]

i think child should still be the lynch

Also this.

[teacher]

VOTE: child

[teacher]

I don’t think massclaim is a good idea. Today is nothing, and tomorrow is now mylo not lylo. I can’t see what town gains from it now, but perhaps I’m missing something?

No NK

• target was protected (most likely, especially given game state)
  
• scum was jailkept (possible)
  
• scum waived the nk (least likely, but it can happen)

[teacher]

Didn’t see this page.

I’ll trust Clem. VT.

[teacher]

Read 429 real close. I never actually claim a role for myself, and ensure that I phrase it in a way that doesn’t force any actual pr to claim. I then followed up with a link to a game where a vt puts another player before himself on his readslist-my way of softing vt. I knew Clem was not the day 2 lynch, and thought by making an obvious soft I could attract the nightlill or a roleblock to leave our real PRs free to operate.

[teacher]

Do you mean yesterday or today?

[teacher]

(I will answer the former but not the current)

[teacher]

Yesterday for all of the reasons I provided in 393. He was not the day 2 lynch, but was plausible enough for me to have claimed to have copped.

For today, I will answer ONLY as it pertains to me - I saw his request for a hard vs. soft claim as requiring a response given my gambit.

[teacher]

Nice job Clem. I assume you’re tracker who had Amzela visiting me? Or at least fakeclaiming tracker?

[teacher]

Didn’t see this page perils of the phone.

VOTE: flippy

I called Amzela or in the Ic confessional day one. But I had just given it up after she resisted the massclaim

[teacher]

Dang it btw. I was really hoping this would be the game I called the team

[teacher]

Proctoring a test but nice work!

I welcome any and all IC feedback (like I said it’s only my second go) or questions.

[teacher]

I’ll have some thoughts here tonight as well. Pleasure playing w you all.