Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

[Munchmellow]

Hey everyone!

VOTE: Skellen

[Munchmellow]

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Looks like TvT to me, too. Could also be SvT (not sure about Loopdan).

Or double bussing.

Do you really feel it's double bussing? And why?

[Munchmellow]

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

I liked his posts, he asked some ok questions, stated some opinions, generally I got a townvibe.
But I am not that sure anymore after rereading. I disliked his 69. I don't see a reason to say that but to apear a martyr. And I have a problem with that, because I don't like this martyr "I will sacrifice myself" posts. I think that town doesn't have to go there to be townie, so I kind of see scum-agenda in this. And what does that even mean - that he would selfhammer if he would be L-1 on deadline and no one else to hammer?

[Munchmellow]

Here's my readlist:
Town: Skellen ( UNVOTE: Skellen ),
Null-town: PvT, Elements, Enter
Null: Loopdan
Mixed feelings (null-scum): thespio, muh

I don't have a reading on MDb.

Skellen- Skellen/Loopdan seemed TvT or at worst TvS, but Skellen reads town to me anyway.

PvT - more town than scum, even though not as active as usually, but I think this is NAI right now.

Elements - actually don't have much to say about him. Townvibe and didn't say anything that I could scumread, so I lean town.

Enter - strong entrance that seemed pro-town

Loopdan - maybe IC paranoia but I just can't read him as town. For now he is null to me.

Thespio- I already explained what bothered me. I know it was only one post that really stood out for me, but that made me read his ISO as coming from a scum perspective and I could see it.

Muh - I know selfvote was in RVS and as a joke, but O don't like it. I think it is a kind of joke, that would make someone look goofy town - good for scum to do it. I also disliked his double bussing comment. But even after his explaination I think just stating the other possible outcome is not helpfull and just makes you look like you have an opinion without actually sorting people.

VOTE: Thespio

[Munchmellow]

Your concern is valid, engage with me, i would like to get a better read on you.

If you could lynch two people, who would they be (and leave MDb out of this, because she is obv not a lurking scum but is probably gonna be replaced so her inactivity is NAI).

Would you hammer your strongest townread, just to get a lynch D1?

[Munchmellow]

Ok, first thing first - @Enter, I agree with a lot of things that you wrote, but this ginormous walls just seem a bit too much. Reading through those feels like being back at med school studying pathology thinking - do I really have to read all of these or could I just skip some stuff. I read it once and will probably not reread it and Thespio got one thing right - you are stating same thing multiple times.
And if I counted correctly, Thespio is still at L-2, so you can't hammer until you get someone else on wagon. And why the rush. There is one player that we didn't even hear from and we are only half through D1. I don't agree that the game is basically solved.

Now, @Thespio, for someome who says that can't read me due to my inactivity you could at least answer my questions.

Your concern is valid, engage with me, i would like to get a better read on you.

If you could lynch two people, who would they be (and leave MDb out of this, because she is obv not a lurking scum but is probably gonna be replaced so her inactivity is NAI).

Would you hammer your strongest townread, just to get a lynch D1?

And I prefer quality to quantity, but I can post some fluff if that will help your readings.

And second thing - what is with all this self sacrificing and self-hammering stuff. I think self-hammering is anti-town. Why? Because as a Vanilla, you can only be 100% sure about one player's alignment - your own. So why would you hammer someone that is 100% town. I don't think that actually helps town.
So, another question - why did you offer to self-hammer?

[Munchmellow]

Well, I'm not jumping on that wagon. I read everything, I get where they (mostly Enter) are coming from, but something smells fishy here. It seems like Loopdan reads obv scum to a lot of people and I just don't see it coming from an IC. The only thing that really stood out for me is policy vote on MDb- @Loopdan, can you explain that.
So, if he flips scum - lesson learned for me not to trust my gut next time.
My read on PvT also changed to null-scum.

[Munchmellow]

If Loopdan didn't have the title of IC, would that change how you read him?

Probably. But it is a moot point, because he has IC title. I mean, we could go to the whole WIFOM saying that expirienced scum could do obv scummy stuff you would expect from newbie scum just to appear not scum...

I am actually more bothered by Loopdans reaction - kind of giving up at L-2.

I would call what Enter did tunneling, btw. And Enter has done it before on a town player, so it is NAI or it even makes him town.

Magic - joining Skellen in my strong townreads.

[Munchmellow]

@Elements - have your readings changed? Are you scumreading Loopdan more strongly after everything that went on on the last few pages?
Is Thespio still your strongest scumread?

[Munchmellow]

@Magik, you wanna see what too scummy to be scum looks like? The post below.

UNVOTE: I want to see how Loopdan plays this out, i feel like however he flips Enter will be the opposite.

Can you explain that a little bit more for us newbies?

[Munchmellow]

I kind of don't have anything new to say. I still think Enter/Loopdan could be TvT, I still think Skellen an Magik are town and I don't have a real oppinion on Elements, Muh and Pvt (they could be lurking or uninterested due to pages of walls of going in circles or just busy in RL). I can say Pvt is unusually less active than in our last newbie together (he was town there).

@Loopdan

Before I'm hammered I want everyone to post the following info. Just copy and paste and add your answer. No explanations needed. Just a name for each.

My #1 scumread if Loopdan flips town is:
My #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum is:

Don't answer this if you can avoid it (some people already have). The reason you don't do this is because it really helps scum know who to kill - It gives away who they're gonna have a hard time lynching (note #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum).

Do you agree witg Enter here? And why would you ask a question based on you being scum if you know you are town?

[Munchmellow]

I see there is a lot to read since I was here last (kids got sick and needed my attention).
Will post my thoughts in an hour or two.

[Munchmellow]

No, this is your problem. If you're town, you should be asking questions based on whether or not you're town. Your excuse for asking a question based on you being scum is bad. Stop trying to put it off on me. I often have uncertainty, but usually it's against players that play well enough to make me doubt and don't regularly remind me that they are scum through their play.

You're blinding yourself in your tunneling. I'm not going to say his play is flawless or isn't scummy because he's definitely made his mistakes, but you're missing out on so much right now that it hurts. Too many things you've been poking at and calling him scum over, like his question pair, have a town side to them that he's already thrown out for all to see, yet you're skipping them right over and calling them scummy because they can be seen that way and completely ignoring the other side of the coin.

You're also missing the actions of the entire town surrounding you, and I have no clue what you think of anyone else at this point given how old your reads are and how little you've said about anyone else, and I'm not the first one to say that. You keep pointing back to your old posts as evidence of your reads, but do you still "want to see more from Magik" like your original post said? Seems like you could at least figure out something about my alignment after these 27 posts, but yet you've said nothing about me or anyone else lately, only referring to other people's posts when they're talking about Loop or talking directly to you.

If you're seriously town, take a break, cool your jets, and come back once you can review things without the massive confbias. I truly think you're town here given how suicidal this sort of tunnel is on Day 1 for scum, but you really need to get out of this tunnel and review everything he's said without this scum-tinted lens you're using right now because it's crippling your ability to help the town out.

You're my new favourite. I like

so many

all of your posts.

[Munchmellow]

Ok, I managed to get through... few pages of Magik/Enter, that I'm just gonna leave alone, because I feel it's just going in circles....

Thespio is still at L-2 and we have no idea why. That wagon was lost between the main fight. Same for PvtUrist, there was some talks of PvtUrist scum but that didn't go anywhere.

I know why my vote is still on Thespio. I'll change it, but not because I'm sure he's town...
UNVOTE: Thespio

Anyway, I don't think there's a point in starting up another wagon at this point. The main event in day 1 was Enter vs Loop and I want to see this battle go out to till the end.

I don't get this. Ok, if you're sure he's scummiest of them all, but there is still 2 days left. And if there is a good chance they are both town, why would we lynch one of them and not look elswhere?

@Elements Loop being the "most beneficial lynch" isn't an excuse not to have reads on other people. Still highly disappointed in this slot.

I would like to know Elements reads too.

If loopdan flips scum i and more than happy to bow down to the all knowing power of Enter

What happened with Enter being scum and tunneling Loop? What made you change your mind?

Right now for me, there are two scenarios:
1. Thespio is scum with Elements/Muh/pvt
2. 2 scums are among Elements/Muh/pvt

[Munchmellow]

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

@Munch, LOOK AT THIS
what kind of impact do you draw from this?

Yeah, I saw that. I have mixed feelings about this. I mean, I would hammer a townread at deadline to avoid no lynch (not a strong townread). But to rush hammering a townread... I do find it suspicious.
If loop flips town, what do we know about muh? About pvt? There is a lot of loop lynch happy people here and they can't all be scum.

[Munchmellow]

Right now for me, there are two scenarios:
1. Thespio is scum with Elements/Muh/pvt

One last thing for today:

How does this scenario work? I mean I get that Thespio is shady, but two of these three tried to lynch him. While he has tried and is actually trying to lynch exactly those two.

Well, I obviously didn't think it through.
Where I was coming from is - based on my gut feeling and last few pages of loopdans answers, let's say he's town. And the way Enter went after him, I think he's town too. Than Magik and Skellen are really townie. So there is Thespio and the other 3left. I like a lot of Thespio's posts. But if I am being slightly paranoid, I could see a lot of his posts come from scum agenda. What bothered me was how wagon on Loopdan formed and how Thespio had a change of heart back then.
I can still see my No.1 scenario working with Muh and maybe even with PVT. But I admit that scenario No.2 is more likely (and it would give us 2scum out of 3ppl). That's why I unvoted Thespio and would like to lynch one of those 3. Lynching PVT doesn't sound good because he is gone for a long time now and we should wait for his replacement (which is probably gonna be hard to find with 25pages of D1). So that leaves Muh and Elements - neither of them gives me very townie feelings.

[Munchmellow]

Hi RCE.
Great that you joined us.

[Munchmellow]

I think you might be playing WIFOM with yourself and I don’t think it’s healthy

Yes, I probably am and its frustrating. That's also a reason why I want to let this go for now...

1. He won't flip town.

Wow, I kind of admire how sure you are about yourself. Do you really have no doubt and deny all possibility that he could just be town?

[Munchmellow]

Post 319 makes me thing a lack of reading had gone on. I had given a null read on Loopdan and then Munch asked if the argument made me scumread him more??? This makes no sense.

It obviously made sense to you in 320 where you answered it. You knew exactly what I was asking you but now it makes no sense anymore?! And even though you put Loop in null reads, in your description it said, that he does a lot of fence sitting and that Enter's posts made you question his alignment.

Elements
Everything posted by this slot is something I would post as town.

I think this is a wierd thing to say about yourself. It's different when you ask yourself this about others - is this comimg from town slot? But when you are town, you don't have to think - would I post this as town, because you ARE town.

Because there are currently no votes on muh. And as i've said before we get more information when you flip

In post 794, Loopdan wrote:
Let's say Muh and I are both at L-1. You vote me there?

What information do you think we gain from your pov when muh flips in either circumstace?

Why not just say, that you townread muh. Why beat around the bush and not give a concrete answer.

Between loopdan and elements lynch, I lean to elements.

I reread Loopdan's ISO and I still don't scumread him. I think Enter's initial case on Loopdan was week (when Enter first posted it I could see his perspective even if he didn't sway me. After rereading I don't feel it anymore). I townlean Loopdan for now, but there were some things that bothered me (the almost giving up part, some posts that just seemed unnecessary, rushing some players for answers-that seemed like trying too hard).

About Elements - even with his vote joining wagon on Loopdan, he still didn't want to commit and say he scumreads or scumleans Loopdan. It took him days to do that. He wanted to stay in the middle as a good guy with all that "I think you're town, I'm just doing it for info". I also think je was mirepresenting my post 319 as stated above. Picking out pieces that suit you to go with your read is scummy. But I did like his readlist - even if I don't agree with the content, that effort and train of thoughts are more townie than scummy. Even though, with wagon building up, he had to give something.
I scumlean Elements, but am not Enter-confident he is scum.

[Munchmellow]

VOTE: Elements

This is L-1.

[Munchmellow]

Elements is still possibly town. At least put loopdan at L-1

Ok, but Loopdan is possibly town too. I can see Elemets posts that are townie, but scum will try to appear townie. And I can see Loopdans posts that are scummy, but town will make posts that will read scummy (otherwise we wouldn't have mislynches).
I think you have double standards. Why isn't it possible thst Loopdan is town?

[Munchmellow]

Munch. What did you think of elements reads list?

I agree about Skellen, kind of agree about Muh. Don't agree about Magik (if Loop is scum it would really expose Magik for defending him. I don't think scum would do that so openly). Agree about Thespio (all my concerns about Thespio being scum are in that readlist). I agree you are town. I don't agree about PvT - I think he started similsr here than in our last game, where he was town. But was less active here. So basing scumread on one game is not ok, specially because he was replaced. I think Loopdans portion was just saying what you're saying... so I'm not convinced with Elements reasoning for his vote, specially how it suddenly changed from "I think you're town" and I don't get what Loopdan did to cause that change.

More answers coming... I'm (allways) phoneposting, so it takes time...

[Munchmellow]

What did you think of the list of names loopdan has posted that shifts around every couple of pages? What do you think about the large amounts of effort he put into them so we can follow his thought processes?

I think you're exaggerating. I think he posted readlists 3times (in 30 pages!), so it's not every few pages. And I don't think it shifts around that much. You know, people's readings usually change. I have never seen readings so set in stone as yours are. And he did explain his reasoning throughout his posts, but I agree it was not that detailed.

[Munchmellow]

Have you ever played scum before? I have. When I do, I don't want to do anything, for fear I'll screw something up. I want to contribute as little actual game information as possible. I don't want my reads list to have explanations, because then I have to put effort in to maintain consistency.

Look at the effort from both players. Look at the type of posts they're making.

No, never played scum and I don't have much expiriences. This is also why I am easily persuaded to follow more expirienced players reasoning. But I try not to do that and gain experience having my own reads and reasoning. You being more experienced doesn't mean you can be wrong (or scum - not that I think you are in this case).
And about explanations - a lot of people say it is newbies who have a need to explain every detail of their thought process.

[Munchmellow]

They'll try and make you think they're town through manipulative posts like "GL town, you'll need it" and "If you flip me, town will be down a player," because it's easier to appeal to your emotions and your fears than it is to put in effort to come across as consistent in your reads and the lynches you push.

I can only say that I didn't like those posts either.

[Munchmellow]

Did you see how quickly his reads list changed? Did you see how many people he tried to push a Lynch on?

I checked his readlists again (post 252, 406, 649). The change but not quickly. Muh is alway on the bottom. Loopdan did explain why he "upgraded" you to town. And he did quote why he thought Elements is scummy, which also goes with his theory that 2scum are among Muh/Elements/pvt/me. And I can understand why his vote is changing if he is indecisive between Muh and Elements (btw, just googled how to spell indecisive and a good thing I did, cause I had it totally wrong). It's the same thing if I would change my vote to Loop, because of your case. Then Magik would come and make a countercase and I would change back to Elements...
And the only one I think Loopdan actually is pushing lynch on is Muh.

[Munchmellow]

See how this post doesn't look all that bad? Except he calls me town and then tells town PR to invest me, which is super weird, especially because, as scum, he has an idea of what PRs town has. So basically what it looks like he's trying to do is convince PRs to investigate a town read instead of investigating scum. I won't talk anymore about what PRs we might have, but think on that.

He said you are likely town and used 2x if. And when he would flip town, you probably would be scumread to some extent. But I generally don't like people to tell others how to use their PR.

Here's the post you got on elements for saying:

In post 679, Elements wrote:
Elements
Everything posted by this slot is something I would post as town. Current Read - Confirmed Town



See how this is just him saying something in a different way than you expect? I used to say stuff like this all the time. I think I still do, I just explain the heck out of myself when I do and end up with a wall, because I'm afraid of being misuy and taken for scum. There's nothing harmful to town here

I agree it is nothing harmful and maybe I am nitpicky, but it still sounds weird to me.

[Munchmellow]

Also I think you should read elements arguments for loopdan again, I think. He makes some points I havent made yet (especially as far as specifics).

It's mostly calling him slippery, greasy and misleading... specifically mentions his selfpity phase and 2 more posts (one of them I agree, does no favour for loopdan). I don't think there's anything wrong with the other.

[Munchmellow]

And sorry for asking again, but I do want an answer- do you agree that your scumreadon elements is largely the way he words things?

This is just a part of it. I don't agree with his scumreads - you say how many thoughts Elementa put in that. But his scumreads are me, PVT and Loop. I find it suspicious, how he didn't have a problem understanding what I was asking in 319 and answered it, but then later says it makes no sense. The case on Pvt is really weak and shallow. And for Loop, there was so many things said before from your side that it wasn't really hard to find reasoning for his vote.
And one more thing was, how he stated loop is town, but would hammer him early - because that would give us info. But he didn't want to give a straightforward answer if he would vote muh instead of his townread - loop. IDK why. He wanted to stay in the middle. Why not say - I think you are scum and muh is town and won't vote him. Or say I think you are both town and push my lynch as his scumread. I can't see this coming from town. You can speak your mind as town.

[Munchmellow]

In post 842, Munchmellow wrote:
He said you are likely town and used 2x if. And when he would flip town, you probably would be scumread to some extent. But I generally don't like people to tell others how to use their PR.
would you agree that it's generally harmful to try to tell PRs how to do their job, since PRs know their alignment and do not know the alignment of the person telling them waht to do?

I don't know if I would call it harmful, but I find it unnecessary and annoying. I think being a PR would be fun and everyone has his logic and idea how to use it.

[Munchmellow]

Yes, conversely if Loop flips town voters are doing the buddying. Buddying you, get what I mean?

I follow and agree. Which is a big reason that, if both are town, loop is a better flip.

Well, I don't follow. Can you dumb it down please (and I swear, I am actually not dumb )

[Munchmellow]

The loopdan complaint that he can't come up with anything new seems a bit silly.

I didn't mean that he should come up with sth new. I'm just saying that if he is scum and loop town, there was enough material already posted, so he didn't have to try hard to find reasoning for loops scumread.

[Munchmellow]

In post 842, Munchmellow wrote:
He said you are likely town and used 2x if. And when he would flip town, you probably would be scumread to some extent. But I generally don't like people to tell others how to use their PR.
would you agree that it's generally harmful to try to tell PRs how to do their job, since PRs know their alignment and do not know the alignment of the person telling them waht to do?

I don't know if I would call it harmful, but I find it unnecessary and annoying. I think being a PR would be fun and everyone has his logic and idea how to use it.

Ok pretend for a minute that Loopdan is scum. Would it be harmful for him to be telling town PRs what to do then? What if he was telling them to investigate someone he knew wasn't scum because someone who was scum was under suspicion?

Yes, sure it would be harmful than. If PR would actually listen to him. But as I understood Loopdan, he was saying after he flips - and after a flip you would know he is scum and wouldn't listen to him anyway.

[Munchmellow]

Ok, I follow. But it seems your scumreadon of elements is a.. word choice and depth of thought scum read. Would that be correct?

This combined with him being evasive about voting Muh/reasons for early wanting to hammer his townread. All of this. It just makes me doubt townie thing that he did ebough, that I would rather lynch him than Loopdan. But I am not as sure in this as you are in Loop being scum.

@Enter, if Loop flips town, who would be your scumread then? And would it be the same person as if we lynch Elements and he would flip scum?

[Munchmellow]

UNVOTE: Elements

Looks you were right, Enter. Could be fake claim, but I will trust Elements for now and if sth doesn't add up it will be obvious soon enough. I wonder what else you were right about... have to reread some stuff...

[Munchmellow]

Munch feels town but again, the gamestate seems to be pointing in the other direction. (especially if Elements is town).

Also 908 reads like Munch is Elements' partner (if Elements is scum).

So, if Elements is town, I am in your oppinion scum. But if he flips scum, I am his partner?!

[Munchmellow]

Munch is confirmed scum now that elements and Loop have both flipped town, I'll go back over why on one of my breaks when I've got a bit of time.

I'm town, so you need a new theory. But I am interested in your detailed explaination.
It's also a nice way to set up a mislynch - just mention a few times on D1, that one of two town players is a scum, state it as a fact and be 100%. If one of them gets mislynched D1, you have a nice mislynch set for D2. If not, just kill the guy N1 and have a nice mislynch set for D2.

Today, my scumhunting pool is RCE, muh, Thespio and Magik. I don't like Enters play, but I agree with Magik, going like that after Loop, it would be a very risky game for scum. Skellen still reads town to me. Magik does too, but with a pinch of doubt.
Btw Enter, I think you are finding excuses for yourself by saying your tunnel was fine, his play was bad. The reason he wasn't dead by page 12 is, that some of the people weren't as sure in your case and in the end, they weren't wrong.

I have a lot of time today, so I'll be rereading and will have some more to say in the evening.

[Munchmellow]

I just finnished rereading everything and will start on my post. I am a little dissapointed (thought I would have an epiphany or sth, it is 40 pages!) But there was just sooo much Enter-Loop, that doesn't seem really helpfull now.

[Munchmellow]

Ok, as said, I TR Enter and Skellen. From other four, I would townlean Magik, but some valid theories have been pointed out, that he could be siding with loop for towncred... I have some doubts about his alignment. I don't think he would be a good lynch for today, we have better lynch options (muh, RCE, Thespio)

Let's start with Muh:
We have a nice Loop townread at start

I'm getting a good townread on Loopdan though. It looks like he's giving us game advancing content which is nice. It's generally towny if someone is going through the effort of reading metas.

Which goes to SR and vote really fast after Enter joined (158). And while I agree with Muh, that fresh players offten have good perspective, I don't think that Enters case was that good and this change of heart came pretty fast. There is no good case for more than 10pages, when Muh comes back dead certain that Loop is a slippery scum. He also doesn't want to give any other reads and says "Let's lynch loop first" - this is not sth town would say.
About D2 - I think Muh made some valid points in his 1025.

I also looked into possible partners excluding my TR (with 4suspects it's 6combinations).
It doesn't work with Magik, I don't think they're double bussing. RCE also seemes unlikely (considering Muh's theory, RCE is second scum...). I think it would work with Thespio - in 158 Muh commemts that Thespios self-sacrificing post was suspicious but that he thinks town does that. There are some more posts, where Muh states athespio did sth wierd/suspicious, but never scumreads him and is later asking why is Thespio still on L-2. They were also both on Loop's wagon, so if you consider 2on wagon theory, it would explain why scum didn't hammer Loop sooner.

Will continue with RCE in next post...

[Munchmellow]

So, RCE, first known as Pvt:
jumped on Thespio's joke way to strong in110 and was still pushing it in 132. It seemed out of nowhere. Elements said Pvt acts the same as he did in their previous game, where he was scum, but his readlists and style simed similar to my last game with Pvt (town), so this is NAI, specially with Pvt replacing.
Let's just say Pvt's lurky Thespio push seemed scummy.

RCE had a good start, but didn' really pick sides. His vote stayed Pvt's RVS vote, which I do find wierd.

I would prefer a lynch on muh personally

Why not voting him then?

There is a thing about stating one of Loop/muh is deffinetelly scum. And later one of me/elements is scum. This could be a nice way setting mislynches.
His wagon theory is ok, but is still just assumptions and PoE. My vote staying on Thespio, while I scumread him and not switching to Loopdan, who I didn't scumread, shouldn't be the base for your case. It also doesn't go with your previous statement, that scum would just go with Enter's accusations (which I agree with and is part of a reason I didn't want to vote Loop - this wagon forming smelled fishy).
Other than that, I don't have much to say about RCE's play. He explains his thoughts, thinks, asks questions. Way better impression than Pvt. But Pvt was around for quite some time and I don't want to overlook that part of the same slot.

Possible partners - Magik (muh's case 1025) there is nothing in their interaction, that would make this impossible
Thespio - PVT's start makes this unlikely
Muh - unlikely as stated in my "Muh post".

[Munchmellow]

Sry guys, had to go befor I could finish my readings on Thespio and than family weekend kind of happened. Will read quickly read this last four pages so I can comment...

[Munchmellow]

Weren’t you part of my wagon?
Why do you think loops wagon felt wrong? Why didn’t you actively push against it? Pvt/RCE wasn’t involved how do you feel about the people who lynched loop?

I voted you quite early and stated my reasons. I didn't want to move to loop, because I townleaned him and I felt Enter was exaggerating when making his case against Loop. So I thought wagon was wierd, because it seem quite some people were easily convinced with Enter's case (and I didn't feel that way). So I was thinking that some scum eagerly jumped on that wagon and that made me question Loop as scum even more. And I push strongly only when I am sure or feel strongly about sth. With Loop, it was only a town lean and his first reaction (giving up) could be interpreted as scummy - so no, I wasn't dead certain I am right.
At least 1scum lynched loop, could easily be two. I already posted my thought about everyone (will post my reading on you when I catch up reading what I missed in the last 2days).

[Munchmellow]

Enter is set town for you?

I mean, nothing is 100%, but I don't think he would go after loop with those walls and so 100% sure, if he would be scum. I admit it seems like a good scum tactic, but it could easily backfire and result in Enters lynch D2. If I want to sort people, I have to townlean some, otherwise it's just a big mess of thinking everyone could be a scum.

[Munchmellow]

1. Munch agreed with you and hes near the top of your town list. Point made.

I agreed with what?

[Munchmellow]

Hmm, I must have misread him, regardless your bottom 3 are all people who weren't with you, and you were wrong, why are all the people on your wagon town?

Ok, never mind my last question. Just letting you know I'm a she.

[Munchmellow]

4. Your argument is that loopdan flipped town => there was scum on his wagon. But what I'm trying to get you to realize, is that if Elements wasn't a PR, he also would have flipped town, and loopdan wouldn't have flipped at all. And you would be scumreading an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SET OF PEOPLE. Someone even dropped an intent to hammer on elements.

I just want to point out, that it is majority to lynch, so 5/9. And if theoretically RCE still wouldn't be voting it's 5/8, so considering that, if elements wouldn't claim and would get lynched, 2 people would have to be the same (on both wagons).

[Munchmellow]

Honestly though, you're both flipping out at each other and it's making it hard to keep up or understand much of it while also making my own posts between. It's starting to feel all too reminiscent of the Enter/Loop war, with neither side really capable of getting their points across to the other.

I second that.

[Munchmellow]

In regards to RCE's slot. I know this isn't really considered AI in general, but I think pvtUrist replaced out intentionally to clear out his slot. I looked at his post history and he's been active in his other games, even leading up to his replacement. I've seen this strategy used a couple times by scum who replace out their slot once they get pressured. They think it gives their replacement a clean slate to work with.

People really do this? But what's the fun of playing a game when you have to replace out to win! But do you think PVT is expirienced enough to do this? And that a pressure on his slot was that big?

[Munchmellow]

I'd vote RCE right now but I'm not comfortable putting him at L-1 just yet. So yet another FOS: RCE

Do it, the sooner I get flipped the sooner Munch gets lynched.

How can you be ok with that? Another town lynch gets us to lylo - why would you be ok with this. Your case against me is very weak and only based on wagons and PoE. But you are still dead certain. I am not buying that. It seems like AtE.

[Munchmellow]

4. Your argument is that loopdan flipped town => there was scum on his wagon. But what I'm trying to get you to realize, is that if Elements wasn't a PR, he also would have flipped town, and loopdan wouldn't have flipped at all. And you would be scumreading an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SET OF PEOPLE. Someone even dropped an intent to hammer on elements.

I just want to point out, that it is majority to lynch, so 5/9. And if theoretically RCE still wouldn't be voting it's 5/8, so considering that, if elements wouldn't claim and would get lynched, 2 people would have to be the same (on both wagons).

I'm sorry. I've probably been awake for too long, but I'm not following what you are getting at.

It's not that important, I was just comenting on the go, while reading... You said Thespio's argument was illogical, because it would be entirely different set of people, if Elements lynch would go through. I'm just saying it wouldn't be ENTIRELY different set of people - two would be the same.

[Munchmellow]

That said it nullifies the all town theory for Loops Lynch for me, muh and skellen would be the first two slots I point out on Loops wagon.

I agree that Loops lynch was not all town. But I am more interested why you would point out Skellen? Do you scumread her?

[Munchmellow]

I'll just post my Thespio readings and than put my vote somewhere (I actually have to think which way to go).
Enter made a nice post that summarizes how I see Thespio

Thespio has a weird talent for making really scummy posts and really towny posts back to back.

What I didn't like at the beggining was his self-sacrificing comment in 69. And here we have another self-hammering offer in 198. This last interaction with Enter was really wierd, actually this whole page was wierd (talking about Thespio), which is probably why my vote stayed on him for so long, even when he started with more townie posts:
It starts with 181, where Thespio totaly townreads Loopdan and votes PvT. Then announces L-1, which it was not. Starts bickering with Enter and in 193 says he is gonna self-vote, so Enter can hammer him if he thinks he's scum. Enter answers and tells him to do it. In 198 Thespio says he will self-hammer (Enter didn't vote him, so he is L-2 and can't actually self-hammer, Enter wants him to self-vote, so he can hammer). In my language we have a proverb, that would summarize all this nicely - the mountain shook and mouse was born. Meaning, there was much uproar and nothing happend. So after his last offer to selfhammer, topic was slowly changes and in 217 Thespio sees Enters point and Loopdans townread goes to scumread. I really didn't like this progression. And threatning to self-vote and when you see the other side would actually hammer you just reverse your stance...

Next thing that I didn't like is his vote on Elements.

@Horse, backup, are you seeing elements post too?? he literally recognizes someone as town and is like 'eh. killem'

Its less about rushing anything and moreso HE LITERALLY SAYS HE IS TOWN AND STILL WANTS HIM DEAD. THIS IS THE SCUMMIEST POST OF THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VOTE: Elements Everything put together against loop, even from what i see is only a fraction of how skummy this post is.

Yes, I scumread Elements too and thought it was scummy to vote townread with a lot of time left. But calling it scummiest post of the game. Jumping on it like that.... I don't think so. It seems too much. The only thing that I don't know is what scum!Thespio would gain from such a vote switch. It is one town to another. Maybe searching for PR, since Loop claimed VT (I think Muh talked about this).

Another thing about Thespio and PR's:

^do you know a pr?

Did you just softclaim a pr?

O mean, what is an answer to: do you know a PR? Should he say: yes, I think a PR is ****. I mean PR should claim on D1 only when under intent to hammer. So why try to start conversation about it?!

All this things make it really hard for me to trust Thespio, even when he says and does townie things.
And lets's not forget - Elements, when asked who his scumread would be if Loop flipped town said Thespio.

[Munchmellow]

@Munch:
I know you didn't had the time to write about Thespio yet, but since two of your three suspects have a good chance to get lynched today and you hadn't it exactly said yet: Who of these two is more suspicious to you and you are tending to lynch at the moment? Depending on that how would Thespio fit into this with his acting recently?

It's hard to say. I think what makes muh suspicious is not what he says but his play in general. And PvT didn't do any favour to his slot. But RCE is less suspicious. It's just him being fixated on wagonomics that I don't like.
I'm tending to lynch Thespio. I don't think he would fit with RCE. Pvt/Thespio could be double bussing. But I think that would make game kind of interesting for Pvt, I don't think he would lost interest the way he did. I'm not saying it's impossible, just unlikely.
It goes better with Muh - also could be the reason why scum didn't hammer Loop earlier.

Btw, @Enter, after making your case against Loop and Thespio being his partner, you said PvT is town. Why did you think that?

[Munchmellow]

Oh, and VOTE: Thespio

[Munchmellow]

Ill answer Skellens post and respond this this laughable post from munch, I know you have been less active but when your entire case lies behind 500 posts ago its kind of funny. but since you are either still catching up or ignoring the rest of the game ill address it all.

Yes, please do, so we can laugh together.
And as said, you do a lot of townie stuff too. But if we should forget scummy stuff, because they happend long ago, then nobody should mention Pvt again...

[Munchmellow]

Anyway, something else. One thing that bugs me in your post is that you that you critizes Thespio's vote post where he accuses Elements. Now that can be done, but it's not the interesting point. Also pointing out his role fishing attempts, I criticized them as well when I confronted Loop about something similar. These are arguments I could agree with.
However he was your main suspect and he did the role fishing before the Elements wagon when you had already voted him and the very vote/post you criticize is the one that started the wagon you joined. Why weren't you questioning the wagon back then when it started and joined it nevertheless? In contrast to the Loop wagon: At the beginning when Enter got started you agreed with him in a lot of things and could see where the Loop wagon came from and looked at it critically enough to decide that this wagon was too fishy for you. Yet you follow the case of your main suspect? I find it odd, mainly because now that you are bringing up the reasons that you seemingly have overlooked back then when you voted Elements up to L-1.

I see your point and I don't actually have a good answer for that. At the time, I didn't want to vote Loop. My Thespio's vote wasn't doing anything and Elements seemed scummy, so he was best choice and considering it was quite late in D1 it was time to put him to L-1.

I think I'm more or less coming to the conclusion that Day 1 has boned me so badly that I don't have a friggin' clue what is going on with most anybody anymore.

I feel the same way. I don't know whom to trust. I am suspicious of too many people, but all the cases seem weak.
Obviously nobody wants to push Thespio with me considering it's 17hour left and I have a seminar I have to attend tommorow, so I probably won't be here when day ends, I'm gonna move my vote...

[Munchmellow]

IDK, I have to sleep this over... I am too tired to make any reasonable conclusions right now, I will post in the morning (=in 8hours).
I'm leaning to muh, because what I was thinking about RCE - it would be probably better for scum!RCE to move his vote on muh and put him to L-1. Also - we all scumread pvt's play. But when I think again, pvt is a good player (I only played 2games with him, but he seemed ok)and I think would have no problem to appear way townier than he did in this game (which would probably be scum!pvt's agenda).

[Munchmellow]

Also, this should clear me to some degree, he was Jailor, If he thought it was me wouldnt he jail me?

What is your point here? How do we know he didn't jail you? How do YOU know he didn't jail you?

[Munchmellow]

Also, this should clear me to some degree, he was Jailor, If he thought it was me wouldnt he jail me?

What is your point here? How do we know he didn't jail you? How do YOU know he didn't jail you?

We dont which is why him calling a kill list doesnt matter, is there any valid reason that doesnt rely on you guessing some far out situation for voting me?

But now you are saying we don't know and before you were clearly implying that Elements not jailing you should clear you. I don't know, maybe it's to early, how does him being a jailkeeper clear you?

[Munchmellow]

To come back to that, this situation is exactly why I am feeling so uncomfortable about the current state of the game. Everything is so wide-spread and deadlocked that I can't help but feel like everything is comfortable for scum or we really have both scum up for the lynch. I don't know what to make out of it. And we have nearly ran out of time.

To raise the stakes for now: VOTE: muh316

Should just be L-2 for now. I will look back into the thread tomorrow morning like in 6 hours. Since I will be at work I have to sneak to the toilet or something like that to post here, so I won't be able to write much at all but it should be enough for votes und unvotes. Depending on muh's next answer and if he can clear my doubts about him or not I will decide if my vote remains on him or if I will unvote. To be honest despite me still seeing some points critical about muh I thought some of his recent posts were good and could be seen consistent with his play, even for Day 1.

I kind of feel the same way. I don't know if it's cold feet because another mislynch would get us to LYLO, but I just got really uncomfortable with picking any of them. Probablly cold feet. In my last(first) newbie I hammered and just got really nervous and certain dude is gonna flip town after I did it. But he was scum.
I have to go get kids ready for school. I'll check back during a break in a few hours.

[Munchmellow]

BTW, would you agree that your reads are something like this:
Enter - town
Skellen - town
Magik - scummy
RCE- scummy
Muh - scummier
Thespio - scummiest

More or less. I wouldn't say Magik is scummy. I like Magik, he has good posts. But I didn't want to narrow my scumreads too much, and Magik could still could be scum playing this game really well. So I didn't want to put him as town. I would call him null-town with a note to myself to pay attention.
The problem I have here is, that muh makes sense - it's not what he did that's scummy but what he didn't and if we look past his lack of explaination when sheeping with Loop vote, his play could just be called not that involved and not scummy (I hope I make sense, I'm in a hurry so my grammar and spelling is even worse than usually).

And my problem with RCE is that a big part of suspicion against him is because of PvT's play. Elements said that PvT reminded him on their previous game where PvT was scum. I felt oposite. He reminded me on our previous gane where he was town.
When I read PvT's meta in a game where he was scum, he seemed nice. He was nkce to other players, made jokes etc. In our first newbie game he replaced in and immidiately made a strong case after two players - kind of like Enter did with Loop, but even though one of them turned out to be scum, his case seemed exaggerated and like he was stretching. And I kind of scumread him because of that. This reminds me of his obsession with Thespio. Reasons why he scumread Thespio were wierd, he was so focused on Thespios joke about talkjng about girls etc. I don't know if scum!pvt would start a game like that. I knkw this is based on my feeling and it happened like 50pages ago... but this is why I have a hard time deciding between theese two and it is frustrating.

I still think we should push Thespio, but it seems too late for that.

[Munchmellow]

My opinion is if he flips town we are basically so far off base we need to reevaluate everyone. He will flip red though, and when he does I am leaning towards Pvt/RCE slot.

This is what I'm afraid of. Because muh flipping town doesn't really mean RCE is scum, even though they were todays wagons. And if he flips town and we consider RCE as town, where are we then? Then maybe my strong townreads are actually scum, and it could be anyone.

In that case for me only Enter will stay a strong townread and I will have to evaluate Magik and Skellen.

[Munchmellow]

And I don't want a no lynch, so muh, I think it is time to claim if you have anything to claim...

[Munchmellow]

VOTE: muh

[Munchmellow]

@Munch, what happened? You missed the vote by 6 minutes.

I was on a seminar and only had really short breaks to log in. I should probablly vote long before and not even wait for a claim, but than I voted as soon as we finnished and didn't even notice it was over deadline until Skellen's post.

OK, Im a Town Tracker:
N1: Enter - No Result
N2: Muh - Visited Skellen

I'm basically a sitting duck now but it means we make it another day. then you can catch the final scum then.

Ok, Thespio claiming. This is actually why I wanted to push Thespio D2. Because I really can't believe all that D1 "better to lynch me than no lynch" and "I will hammer myself" when you are a PR! I don't buy this but am not finnished reading last pages.

[Munchmellow]

Still, after Munch posts I'd like to hear how Enter pegged Thespio as Tracker like this. I hope I don't have to explain why that pings me as strange.

This... and why would Thespio actually claim. I mean, muh had some votes on him already. Wouldn't it be safer to wait with a claim from town perspective.

And if we believe Thespio and he is lying, we loose. So there will be no - oh, he was lying, let's lynch him.

[Munchmellow]

Yeah, you got jailed if you got No Result. The wiki clearly states that a Tracker that gets "No Result" when someone doesn't visit anyone is not Normal, and newbies are meant to follow Normal guidelines. That would be a mod goof if this isn't the case, but given that Elements was scumreading you it's altogether believable that you would be the nightly jail.

This detailing makes Thespio's claim more belivable, but since scum could win with a fakeclaim here, I'm not convinced.

[Munchmellow]

Thespio is town tracker: Muh/munch is all that makes sense to me. But I think in that case he should have checked someone besides muh.

I am town, and even though I see why it would make sense to you, from my ppint of view, I have a hard time finding muh's partner if Thespio really is tracker.

So... you thought Thespio would claim Tracker since Day 2 and that's why you wanted to push him? Am I reading this right?

No, I was thinking Thespio's play D1 was only logical to me if he was VT, so a push on Thespio and him claiming would make me scumread him more. Claiming any PR, I wasn't even thinking specific PR's (kind of excluded doctor, because it would only make sense to heal Elements D1 and that didn't happen).

[Munchmellow]

What was the play here? If I’m town my logic about ratios stands, regardless of my role, if I’m scum then I?... get no cred and look scummy? Explain what impact you see this having.

So, you didn't mean it, when you said - I would rather you lynch me than no lynch? And what was that - I will vote myself etc. all about? Was there a purpose behind those self-sacrifocing posts?

[Munchmellow]

No I did, my logic on ratios stands, I’m just not sure what you thought I would gain as scum, at that point I was making sure we all could avoid a day like today.

I don't get this logic. I could get it coming from VT, but a PR is much more important for town and saying it's better to lynch a PR than no lynch... no, I totally disagree and this is what it makes it hard for me to believe your claim.

[Munchmellow]

I didn’t say to look outside, I’m making a point, if I’m scum a fakeclaim is dumb, it can be countered and it puts me in line even though I wasn’t even next to be lynched.

No, it would be dumb in other circumstances. Right now scum knows in which scenario we are, so if we are in C column, scum knows there will be no counterclaim and with a mislynch town looses, so no, it is not dumb but very smart.

[Munchmellow]

Enter and RCE, how do you feel about Thespio's claim? Do you believe it?
Enter probably does, since he read him as a PR. If you do, why aren't you voting muh?

[Munchmellow]

Ok again, before my claim who did you have as your top scum? Everyone else had muh, why would I throw myself under a bus with a Pr claim if I wasn’t under threat?

Timing of a claim seems off to me, if you are town. You weren't under a threat, so why claim. Just because Enter said so? If muh is scum and you are tracker, then you are gonna get killed tonight. So why claim to lynch a player who was mostly scumread and you had other options to push his lynch. And you could try to find his partner tonight.
Before your claim, I was thinking you could be scum.

[Munchmellow]

@RCE, what do you think about Thespio playing his whole game as a PR (what Magik and Enter say was quite obvious/ the only way his play makes sense). Do you see it too?

[Munchmellow]

Everyone else had me middle of the road, as scum does a claim benifit me if it guarantees I’m on the chopping block?

But it doesn't put you on a chopping block. There is no way to prove you are fakeclaiming. No way town would kill you, specially because muh was scumread. I was the only one who scumread you and even I am not gonna vote for you. Because yes, you could be town PR and I might be biased because I scumread you before the claim and because I don't agree with you on a self-sacrificing topic.