Newbie 1925 - Game Over

[Schiavetto]

Ok, so I'm a math teacher. I won't vote Teacher because of this, and Arithmancer evidently gets a pass too. Hmm... 19jariege ran away with his number so I'll vote the replacement!
VOTE: Zeebu

I'm an ELA teacher with bilingual accreditation. You've left me no choice but to lynch you until we can arrive at an interdisciplinary approach to scumhunting.


VOTE: Sashaddin

[Schiavetto]

Honestly, have to echo the sentiments of T⁴ and others w/rt the assumption that town would, idk, accidentally trip over, fall into their keyboard, awkwardly landing on the keys "LYNCH SASH" and hammer

Even without browsing previous games, it feels like you're preempting a defensive read there ASC ("Look at me, I'm being cautious of town making a mistake, which makes me town myself!")

There's utility in early-game wagon-building & I'm in no rush to relieve pressure, even if rand. Parking, fam.

[Schiavetto]

@board-general experience levels? If not your first game, give me a little self-meta?

Been playing online for years now, across a few sites - mostly chat-based, one forum-based. When I was younger my friends & I had a game night and we'd play a lot of mafia there, too.

For the most part, I try as much as possible to avoid having anything resembling a stable p-meta on myself, nor do I find it particularly useful to make a public record of that sort of thing. I will say, though, that I like Mariah Carey, mezcal/grenadine cocktails, and waking up smelling like lavender - and it tends to come through in my playstyle.



@zeebu No worries, fatherhood's a lot of work. I can't speak for the rest of the pl, but for me at least (as someone with a draining weekday schedule), i'm less concerned with people being inactive than I am with them making an effort to show up & participate when they are active.

[Schiavetto]

I liked zeebu's answer a lot more than Zest's answer

Tbh I'm kind of the opposite--zeebu's response felt more like "Lemme answer your question then dip" whereas ZoL follows up with a worthwhile question of his own. Of the two responses, his is the more generative one.


Gonna shift here bc I don't see us getting anything more out of the Sashwagon.
VOTE: zeebu

[Schiavetto]

do you always post something immediately once you have an inkling or do you withhold for a while to try and gather something slightly more concrete? honest question

There are times when it is in town's favor to be forthright, and times when it's less helpful. Different communities have different preferences but tbh think of it this way:
What does town gain from your silence? What does town lose from your silence?
What does scum gain from your silence? What does scum lose?

There are occasions when I would much rather someone breadcrumb information, or stay tacit on an issue until they feel it absolutely necessary to weigh in, than potentially give the opposing faction something to exploit.

[Schiavetto]

I'd rather a newbie replace in than another SE

This feels strange to me, why would you not want an experienced player in the game? Feels to me like you might be trying to push an easy mislynch on an inactive player.

I know T^4 already responded to this, but in the context of his scumreading the slot, I feel like the "pushing for a mislynch" thing might be a bit of a stretch. People have a habit of reading people as opposed to slots - having a Newbie sub into an SRed slot is more advantageous to town than having an SE player sub into that slot, as the SE player is better equipped to dig themselves out of whatever situation their sub-out left them with.

You're right, I think, to call into question the suspicion being placed on an inactive player - I'm just not sure that you've given us the best example, and I'm a little wary of Things being framed as Things They Very Clearly Aren't. If I missed it, r.i.p. me, but it'd be great to have some other logs to back up your hunch.

[Schiavetto]

even though tttt had been the loudest voice in my favor, i think he also stands the most to gain if i am mislynched on day 1

This is my favorite thing from you all game.

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One thing I will say before I take off-

I'm not the biggest fan of 1-lynch spreads (ASC and ZoL know this). From town, they represent a kind of passivity, or refusal to participate in the (sometimes risky!) process of building wagons, applying pressure and developing reads. From scum, it can be a defensive tactic used to inconvenience town or dissociate oneself from a partner.

SO, I now address the 5 players who are not currently on zeebu:

If you had to build a counterwagon against zeebu, on a player other than the one you're currently lynching, who would it be? Please provide two details to support your thinking, and remember to explain your reasoning.

[Schiavetto]

I asked a question a while back and would super-appreciate an answer from the players in question lmaooo

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My first observation is that literally no one who's abbreviated my name this game has done so w/o typoing - which, um, rude tbh.

My second observation is that I find this post redundant. I can fetch the exact log in a bit, but one of the very first questions brought up this game had to do with people's play experience & playstyle, and albeit using different words had a p similar aim: not just icebreakers/getting-to-know-you junk, but to get a sense of the expected pace of this game & some possible outside factors affecting people's activity/playstyle.

To answer the q: I'm a teacher. I work 6a-5p, EST. I post from my computer, almost always in the evening (more flexible during the weekends), but I get email updates & follow on mobile when I have a chance to look at my phone.



As far as my current feelings go @T^4, I'm generally wary of players who motormouth & that has bothered me a bit abt CC's slot. To clarify: there's a clear contrast between compensating for your sub-out's cruddy contribution to the game & the sort of clumsy rapid-fire commentary we got from ClearClarity, which has felt almost cosmetic.

My position on TheASC hasn't changed.

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I'm vibing p well w/ a lot of what @teacher's been saying recently, specifically w/rt TTTT and the question-repeating. Teach, you suggested that it might've been a slip-up from attempting to seem more active[x]--I think that'd be interesting to explore in the context of T^4's stated scumreadon ZoL (now Screaming).

[Schiavetto]

Schiavetto...
(sorry for the misspells)
those are long working hours for a teacher
New England?

(Dw, I'm half-joking abt the typos- I just like giving people a hard time) New York. We operate on an extended school day & it's testing season.

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ZoL & I mod the same chat-based maf community, of which TheASC is a member

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Even without browsing previous games, it feels like you're preempting a defensive read there ASC ("Look at me, I'm being cautious of town making a mistake, which makes me town myself!")

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zeebu (2) - wilky, Schiavetto

@Schiav
is this still your top Scumread?

a

you voted Zeebu in 106
but haven't pushed Zeebu at all
or advocated for that lynch
in fact, you interacted twice with Zeebu (107 & 188) in ways that don't look like you SR him
then asked everyone who wasn't voting Zeebu to make a case on their preferred counterwagon (189) ???
then haven't said anything about Zeebu since
while starting to latch on others' low-key shade on me

b

if you flip scum it looks like Zeebu is your partner

c

a. He was never my top scumread, though I see how you could have gotten that impression.
b. I don't know what's been "low-key" about it (I'll also add that shade is thrown, not latched onto); I feel I've been pretty open. Is it too much to imagine, though, that multiple people could arrive at the opinion that your gameplay's been sus w/o one of those people being scum manufacturing a read? o:
c. The partner read is a stretch and, if I'm being honest, feels even more strained in the context of you fishing for Bostonians based on an avatar.


I'm fine hopping off of Zeeb here, though, if that's what you're getting at.
VOTE: TheASC
Rise & shine, pal.

[Schiavetto]

teacher if you're town I expect you to blow this game open this weekend

I'm gonna find teaching jobs at my school for all the teachers here
and assign you extra planning periods
so you'll be more active in your games

See, this is the sort of thing that could've been one post, easily, but spreading it out across multiple comments creates the illusion of activity


BTW, @teacher, remember to address me at some point so we don't get accused of being partners~*~*~

[Schiavetto]

He was never my top scumread, though I see how you could have gotten that impression.

who was your top SR during the time you were voting zeebu
and why didn't you voice this top SR when zeebu was being wagoned?

At the time of my zeeb lynch, I was feeling the least cozy abt TheASC. Like I've said before in this game, earlygame wagons--esp for pressure-purposes--are info-mines. You get a lot less out of a pressure lynch if you lead with "It won't be the end of the world to me if you don't flip EOD".

Schiav
tell me every thought you've ever had about Arithmancer/Clarity
thx

I'm assuming you're asking because I didn't answer the first time zeebu asked me [x] (which i apparently missed). I have had no opinion on Arith, up until Clarity stepped in, loose-lipped and labored.

[Schiavetto]

Because I liked the attention zeeb was getting and wasn't in any particular hurry to distract from that.
&yeah, the words "pressure lynch" can be read there as "pressure wagon".


I've got Saturday school in a bit, but I'll see y'all this afternoon<3

[Schiavetto]

@TheASC[x] NGL, it doesn't sit too well w/ me that of the two SRs you named (citing inactivity for both slots), you spend more time pushing the one that we've got demonstrably less evidence to go on for.


@JPD I'm glad you're catching it, too. Like you & Sash have both noted, it's definitely not a hard&fast metric, but it's nice to keep in mind when contextualized by other details abt a player

__________________

As I went to post this, Sash came through w/ their Clarity lynch. Hard to read too much into that decision as I imagine a lot of it was defensive (unless I've missed something since the last votecount, Sash & CeCe are the largest wagons rn), but I'll say I definitely echo the sentiment that Clarity should go out before wilky. We have other ways of dealing with AFK slots.

[Schiavetto]

Yeah, nah, I don't have any reservations about this.


VOTE: Clearly Clarity
Boom.

[Schiavetto]

Rise and shine & give god the glory, glory!

VOTE: TheASC

[Schiavetto]

I like @Sash's analysis - a zeebu-fearkill on teacher feels pretty possible. Looking at teacher's stated townlocks, too, I could see scum NKing him to facilitate a push on any of those three during the day.
Will also add that I'm still not too fond of the wilky inactivity-lynch. In every iteration of this setup, town has access to at least one investigative PR--and in every possible configuration of our current remaining players, we can look into that slot without giving scum a free flip.

I'm not adverse to a policy lynch down the line, but I'm in no rush. Voting beween zeebu & ASC seems fruitful.

[Schiavetto]

If they were on the wagon, I have trouble picturing them as second-position (especially when second-pos player, Sash, was the next-most popular lynch). Not ruling it out, though.

Third-position or off-wagon feels more likely

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@Sash Nah. You're doing that thing where you decide someone is scum, and then retroactively apply that suspicion to everything they've done in order to support your read (rather than drawing a conclusion based on what you've observed). Confirmation bias is one hell of a drug!

The biggest argument I can see for scum!Sash rn is they're fickle with lynches in a way that can be read as desperate/panicky. TheASC mentioned here how quickly Sash changed their tune on zeebu. I think there's some heft to that, esp. considering how the unlynch on zeebu came immediately after a votecount which made it apparent that their zeebu-push wasn't gonna take off--so they switch things up, they poke around and see what else works (i.e., they try for me).

It's weird to me, though, that out of the four players they highlighted scum!Sash would go for me in particular. I'm going to try to lay this out clearly, but bear with me--if Sash is last scum, they know that all four of those players flip green, regardless of role. They could probably get away with going for ZoL-slot, but that point's been talked to death today--no reason to lynch the inactive slot; wouldn't do much for their image. They could go for JPD, but he's had some decent contributions since he's been back with us and there's the risk of it seeming retaliatory. For scum!Sash, the most sensible push out the bunch would probably be TheASC--somebody's already on the wagon, and as would-be last scum, scum!Sash would have more to benefit from that wagon defensively speaking.

But no, instead, Sash comes out here in full goddamn daylight and lynches me w/ some headass logic and a read on me that's more characteristic someone trying to brute-force a sudoku. They plugged in a 4 a while back, and they were so certain they'd almost solved the thing--because if this slot is a 4, then that means this square is... and then in this square you could.... but no, wait, that doesn't work. This square already has a 4. They plug in another number and try again (only to, eventually, hit another wall).

Their reads come across more like troubleshooting than like anything I'd expect from scum. TR that slot.

@TheASC et al. re: [x] I see how that might come across as fluff, gimme a sec to expand on it a bit

[Schiavetto]

Following up on 513/537:

I'm no expert in wagonomics, but I do dabble--and typically mid-wagon players stand the most to gain from bussing. Anything too late looks desperate (or in some-cases, anti-town, as a few of you seem to consider my hammer), and anything too early is an unnecessary risk. There's something to be said for parking an early lynch on your partner and reaping that sweet, sweet towncred--when they flip red and you're seen as a longtime supporter of the wagon. But Day 1? Cui bono? T^4 has nothing to gain from that move, esp. considering they were p widely townread at that point yesterday. No reason to suspect a hardbus at this stage--more likely, if scum was on the wagon, they were hiding somewhere in the middle (2-4th position in this instance).

4th-pos was NKed, so we can rule that out.

2nd-pos is a bit more interesting, but as I was saying earlier, had they been partners, Sash would've had nothing to gain from joining that lynch. In fact, looking at some of the lynchcounts from that day, if we read the two as partners (Sasha and Claire sonds like a Europop/electronica duo btw), it's practically suicide for one to have lynched the other there.

Meanwhile, 3rd-pos comes at an appropriate time--Sash is sitting at 3 votes, and seems to be favored. It's a great opportunity to plant a lynch on CC and establish some distance--but then teacher shifts. At that point, there's no way for the 3rd lyncher to pull out without it looking sketch. They can't bail, so they park.

[Schiavetto]

...did Mary J. Blige just whiteflag or am I tripping?

[Schiavetto]

@Mary Jo Bang & T⁴ ty for clarification


@JPD I don't like the idea of confing anyone based on sub rotations

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@Mary Jo White I'm gonna need you to make a harder case here bc I townread you but the rest of the free world just isn't buying it

@T⁴ While I have you, can you please help me understand the current Sash lynch rn? I'm having a lot of trouble seeing it.

@zeebu Idk why anyone'd want to telegraph that info.

[Schiavetto]

Oh my b, didn't see the updated vote.

I don't TR them per se, they're a null that I don't think is worth flipping rn. I mean, if you want to go for it tomorrow, by all means, let's. But I think it's wasted effort.

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I realize that's directly at odds with my prior post, but I'm sure you get what I mean.

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Kinda messed up how in that entire collection of quotes, the only time you addressed me was to mention how I refer to you by different names.

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I'm feeling neglected, fam.

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Not sure what's confusing about what I said so I'm not going to bother clarifying. Thanks & enjoy your evening<3

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I know TTTT wanted hammer but this is tiresome, and the wagon's not diffusing anytime soon. Sash is town. I want pressure on TheASC tomorrow.

VOTE: Sashaddin

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@zeebu
In the famous words of Queen Ari:

And what about it?

I stated yesterday that, by every metric, Sash flipped green. I preferred a TheASC lynch and have been persistent about that--to such an extent that, while all of you were piling on Sash, I sat parked on him. I gave rationale for both my SR on TheASC and, as you've so helpfully quoted, my townlean on Sasha (as well as my concession that, if y'all insisted, I had no issue policying)

That's the thing about quotes, though: They're useless without analysis. You cited some of the commentary I gave yesterday, which is wonderful, but I would genuinely love it if you'd offer some of your own.

[Schiavetto]

@TheASC It's a big part of why I shifted. I made several arguments against Sash being lynched, and in the time that we had left, it was clear that the gen pop wasn't going to change their mind about moving forward with the lynch. So after leaving some time for discussion, I hammered. I think TTTT's a little upset that he wasn't the one to do it, but I didn't see the conversation going anywhere useful at that point. From a scum POV, a VT claim means it's that much easier to pick out PR. From town's POV, a VT claim makes it easier for scum to PR-hunt while also remaining unverified until we get a flip. So you get the flip.

As for your allegation that TTTT has requested a Neapolitan claim [x], you're either misunderstanding what he said or deliberately misrepresenting what he said: He asked for a Neapolitan to claim

if they got a VT result on somebody

, reason being that we would (presumably) have three clears. The same thing could be accomplished by having a Tracker (should one exist) claim their result/lack of result on a player. Just having everybody claim PR/Not PR is silly, as it makes scum's job easier tonight since (and here's my next point of hesitation): they already have a very good idea of what the setup is.

If second scum is Rolecop, it's entirely possible that they found town's cop N1 and simply went forward with the kill N2. No softs involved. They would also know that we had a Tracker (in which case, prompting Neapolitan claims would be an ez way to shug off suspicion)
If second scum is Goon, then they likely picked up some cop-vibes and got in a much-needed kill on town PR. From that point, it'd be in their best interest to do anything at all that to maintain the illusion that there is still another town PR. Including asking a non-existent PR for results.
RB!Scum is the only scenario in which scum is uncertain of the other Town PR, and prompting claims makes it that much easier to make a determination about the setup.

So. Allow me to reiterate: There is no urgent need to claim your role, unless you are a Neapolitan or a Tracker who has received a result that could exonerate someone, by virtue of their being VT or their having gone nowhere on the night of a kill with solo scum.


@zeebu That was super incoherent, but I'm glad you seem to have recognized your incoherence and made the shift to TheASC. Delighted, even. What I'm *not* so thrilled-to-the-bone about is they way you're being fickle with your votes. You came into the day ready & rearing to go with your vote on me (despite lacking substance), but then hopped onto TheASC the moment you had TTTT's support (he didn't say as much, but I wouldn't be surprised if your quick turnaround there was a part of the motivation behind his unlynching). If the proximity of your two votes is anything to go off of (TTT leads wagon here [x], zeebu sheeps him mere minutes later [x]), you don't really care who gets lynched today. I don't love that.

[Schiavetto]

That's L-1

@Schiav
if you prematurely hammer for the 3rd day in a row
and the game doesn't end
you are the no-questions-asked lynch tomorrow

I've been struggling a bit with the tone of this. Those were both late-day hammers--the first being a tad flippant, but hardly uncalled for. Regarding the second, that was another late-day hammer, made after the wagon had stalled for some time at L-1 and at a certain point, extended town discussions become anti-town. I expanded a bit more on that in my previous post, addressed to TheASC. More to the point, you posted within an hour of my hammervote, and all you had to say during the twilight phase was "he dead" (more flippant than the remark in my first hammer). You didn't bring it up until you had put TheASC at L-1, barely over 24 hours since the day started. Were I to hammer there (as if), it would be in no way comparable to my previous two hammervotes--and I'll thank you not to invite the comparison.

I've seen nothing in JPD's posts to make me doubt he inspected you as town last night, but I'm still going to hold your posts under scrutiny if something feels off.

[Schiavetto]

Point taken and considered.

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@TheASC you and zeebu haven't moved from my top two SRs. His daystart wasn't pretty--if you do flip green, zeebu's next on the chopping block for me. VOTE: TheASC

@MaryJoLisa I would love to hear your reasoning for the TR on zeebu.

[Schiavetto]

re: activity, New York's got its second round of state testing tomorrow and Thursday, so things are a little busy, but I'll definitely still be around.

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@all y'all
If I'm an investigative PR, I don't have any innocent results to share with the rest of the class.

@MelissaJoanHart
Much appreciated.

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I would love for the two of you to cross.
Zeebu hasn't done much to change my opinion on him but I'm gonna need some time to think.

[Schiavetto]

Cross? By that I mean, you've lynched zeebu--now I'm asking zeebu to lynch you.
From zeebu's perspective, you should be confirmed scum (and vice versa). If I were maf, I could've hammered zeebu there and won.

But, y'know, here we are. So I'm clear by that metric--and if zeeb is truly town, then he should be lynching you rn.

[Schiavetto]

So I've made my choice. Tomorrow at 6am EST, I'll be casting my vote. Before that happens, though, I've got some questions--and I'm the kind of girl who likes her questions answered


@zeebu:

1) What motivation would MJB-slot have had for killing teacher N1? What reason did she have to be fearful of teacher

2) It's hard not to read your early-game intractions with Arith & CeCe as distancing attempts, which you had to double-down on once the sub happened. Convince me otherwise?

3) In general, do you think appeals to novicehood are an effective strategy as solo scum? More specifically, what are some ways that strategy might've been effective or ineffective for solo scum this game?


@MLB:

1) Hi! How are you?

2) How are we feeling?

3) What do you think has been your most incriminating moment this game? Talk to me about it.

[Schiavetto]

Hm.
I'll give you another twelve hours to respond to each other.

[Schiavetto]

are we supposed to keep pleading our cases on why the other one is scum?

Why wouldn't you...?

I can't shake the suspicion around MJL not once, but

twice

acknowledging that she did not directly address the question asked of her, but zeebu has been a consistent SR this game. The seemingly deliberate distaning attempts during Day 1 are hard to ignore, as well as his habit of making hasty lynches at daystart on what would be otherwise easy pushes, but then quickly drawing back at the slightest sign of pressure. I've also noticed several occasions where he seems to be relying on emotional responses rather than attempting to gamesolve (or commiting to attempts at gamesolving).

I'm not going to delay this further--honestly, I'm of the mindset that evidence brought to the table in 3p lylo shouldn't overshadow details from the game as a whole, but I won't say I'm not disappointed at how quickly that exchange became conversational.

VOTE: zeebu

Pretty sure this flips red. Looking forward to discussing this all post-game.