Newbie 1941 - Game over

[Kaniffee]

Wake up to 7 pages okay

Have some questions for everyone

1. What kind of experience do you have with Mafia?

2. How did you find out/get into MafiaScum?

3. How do you scumread people?

4. How do you townread people?

5. How do you play as town?

6. How do you play as scum?

1. I've played irl every so often, and I'm in an ongoing game offsite that's my first ever not irl.
2. Someone from the offsite game plays here and they invited me to the 81 person ONUW game. So I joined and played that.
3-4. I tend to go mostly based on the vibes I get to begin with. I just remember that Scum has to lie, and town doesn't unless PR. So I guess I go off whether I think people are being honest with their posts which in turn determines the vibes I get from them.
5-6. Yeah this question is kinda dumb to answer. I don't have enough experience to know for sure how I would play differently as town or scum. And I'm not gonna bother trying to predict it. I post when I can, and contribute what I think would be useful.

[Kaniffee]

PST usually post in the morning or at night at least. Just depends on what is happening in my life if I post more or not.

[Kaniffee]

And now the page count has doubled. Yipee!
I've read through everything, but it hasn't really processed yet. I'll try to reread stuff and do some reads/leans on people later tonight.

[Kaniffee]

Sorry. I was busy with a family dinner because it's the last one with my grandparents before they leave tomorrow. I have been reading stuff, but it takes longer because I've gotten confused by all the acronyms since I'm not quite used to them yet. I'll be going through this, and I'll post my leans/reads before I go to bed.

[Kaniffee]

Oh and another 4 SE game.

Thats... not fun?

It’s to start newb games as Rapidly as possible. Don’t treat SEs any differently. Like you Already have a lot of the theory down, which is our Primary purpose- to model how experienced players would play and read. We also should help with Coding and other issues. Speaking of, I would still love for you to get an avi so I can Mobile recognize your posts.

Also apologies In advance for the random typos and stuff I inject from mobile (eg schlick instead of schtick)- fat Fingers “ittle screen.

Currently on page 10 of reread going in and out of consciousness. I'm really tired. I don't mean to seem lurky, but it's not my fault there are 19 plus pages of this to go through on the first literal day. Not just day one in game but the the first physical day.

Also not game specific aside, but kind of related: Is it worthwile for me to V/LA if I'm still able to post dailyish? I went into this site thinking posting a few times a day would be reasonable, but now this game seems really active to the point where it's just too much for me to go through. Is this typical for games on here? Like should I state V/LA even though for me this amount of posting seems normal, but for everyone else it looks lurky that I'm "only" posting a few times a day?

I'm going to bed because it's almost midnight and I need to sleep. Sorry I couldn't do reads on anyone really for this post.

[Kaniffee]

oh I think I was planning on responding to that quote, in my big post but I was in quick reply so I didn't see that? I don't know what I did tbh, but I think I was wondering what avi means?

[Kaniffee]

I'll have time to make a more thorough post tonight, but for now I'll say that Cyrus's soft claiming seems like an accident. Like they didn't realize that it would be considered a soft claim as a power role because they're new, and they really are just a Vanilla Townie.

laughs i thought i teased you enough to where you knew i wasn't pocketing holdem can you put it back to l1 so

i can clam and finally answer emps questions because i didnt wantg to answer queston 5 and 6 cuse i thought i would out my self but after i clame i can out my self

This last part kinda seems like they just want to follow the "rules" of L-1. That's how it reads to me. I don't think this was intended as a softclaim PR.

Cyrus, why do you keep saying youre dead now?

becuse scum now think im a cop lmao

oh my fucking god did you just soft cop

why

In their first post I remember them defaulting to cop/doctor I don't think this is indicative of anything necessarily.

So yeah I think Cyrus is probably just town that made a mistake.

/bet 35 Cyrus is Vanilla Townie.

[Kaniffee]

I think in that moment saying either doc or cop would've been reasonable. To me there's no reason why cop and why not doc. It could've been either for town!Cyrus.
With the second point are you implying that a doctor would try to protect Cyrus(assuming there is one)?

[Kaniffee]

I think in that moment saying either doc or cop would've been reasonable. To me there's no reason why cop and why not doc. It could've been either for town!Cyrus.
With the second point are you implying that a doctor would try to protect Cyrus(assuming there is one)?

keep in mind i was reading a book and then notist this queston i was hoping that since every one thought i soft pr that if i draw the night kill that the doc might save me if there was one

Hmm okay. So at this point either you actually are the cop or you're not the cop (because you're either scum or vt). No matter which way you slice it this was really bad strategy. However it seems more like you're panicking because you don't want to be lynched or NK then like you're actually a cop. I guess this is more scummy or PR than not, but considering how nervous you've been throughout this game I think you would do this as a vt too. I'm debating voting based on lynch all liars at this point, but I believe you're still L-1, and it seems too early to end the day at this point.

[Kaniffee]

Kanifee, what changed between 486 and 498? You seem to think Cyrus was a VT initially, but soon after you became willing to lynch him. What changed your mind?

I still think he's town, but his posts are confusing and I don't like how he's obfuscating things. I'm not even quite sure what he's doing, but the whole lying about being pr or not, trying to lure a protective role all of it is just very weird. Even though I think he's a vanilla townie I don't like the way he's lying about stuff. The reason I haven't voted yet (besides it being L-1) is I don't want to vote someone I think is town until I've thought enough about the other players and think through whether they're likely to be scum. If I don't decide on solid scum candidates I may vote for Cyrus, because it'll get rid of someone who uses dishonest play.

So as far as 2nd question goes, I don't have a solid read on anyone but Cyrus yet if that wasn't clear.

[Kaniffee]

Okay time to read some people. I ended up just ISOing everyone except when I needed context. Oh and for Emps I gave up on rereading everything.
Wagonomics: Reads town to me. Overall seemed very genuine in their posts, and nothing jumped out as scummy to me.
Red Flavor: Null. Posts are from a playing style that I just don't have much context for, so it's hard for me to interpret specific things as being scummy or townie.
Emps: Town/null. Emps has posted alot, and people have made good arguments for why that may be scummy, townie, or NAI. At this point I don't have the energy to decipher 200 posts, but the more recent ones seem townie, so that's what I'm going with for now.
Holden: Town lean. Can be somewhat aggressive in interactions, but it seems to be coming from someone who's town, and is just inexperienced at going about finding scum. Also the joking tone seems pretty natural and feels town to me. Only a lean because some of his logic isn't adding up for me right now. Could be inexperience, could be slightly scummy, but otherwise nothing weird with his play so far.
cyrus: Town. See post 486 498 and 513 I guess, since I don't feel like retyping (Idk if the links just show up or I have to do something, but I'll try to do that if this doesn't work).
NaCl: Town. His posts seem town motivated, and the way he asks questions I get the vibe that he geuinely wants to know and cares about using good reasoning to find scum.
Teacher: Weak scum lean. Looking through it seems a lot of his posts are general strategy advice that are intended to appear as furthering the game without actually. I feel like strategy would be very NAI in a newbie game when there's less meta knowledge, so the focus on it seems like a distraction. There does seem to be some talk of players he suspects with some reasoning, so that's why it's only a weak lean.
Jackal: Scum lean. Vote for Cyrus seemed sheepy, especially how he just vaguely says it's because of the recent pages instead of actually writing out his own reasons.

Responses to peoples questions under spoiler

Spoiler:

Oops, my question for Kaniffee came out wrong. "Should be: Why do you think Cyrus is town? And more importantly, why don't you have a read on anyone else?"

At that point I decided to focus my time to read Cyrus because he's the one at L-1, so I figured my contributions were more important there first. Here's my reads on everyone else. I suppose if going by proper terminology some are reads and others are just leans, but it's what I got.
I will probably die for this read because if I am right and I survive, it will be bad for scum.[/quote]
No I'm just town who doesn't know what to contribute to a 22 page game, and doesn't have that much time to. I like to think through what I post, and that takes time. At that point I didn't make game posts because I hadn't thought through it enough to feel confident in my opinions.
I'm confused. I'm a newbie. Jackal's SE. Were you saying that Jackal has me as a newbie partner or that I have Jackal as a fellow newbie partner?
The last line doesn't really make sense. Especially with you saying it outright, there's a certain WIFOM created. Now Scum might NK you to make me look bad because you said this. I don't think you being NKed or not will be able to have any indication of alignment for anyone.

Goodnight y'all it's after midnight, so I won't be responding til I wake up at least. I'll probably vote tomorrow too. I wanna sleep on all of this before deciding.
pedit: I see y'all discussing Holden. I don't think what you've pointed out indicates anything scummy, so this doesn't change my read on him.
pedit2: I feel like there's some inbetween post I'm missing where Cyrus accuses emps of being a cop or something? I don't have time to care, so I'll parse through that tomorrow

[Kaniffee]

@Teacher I have some time right now for around an hour and a half. Probably the things I'm confused about are post formatting things like how quote lists work and links. I don't see myself ever making that many posts per day because I like to think through them. And I have limited time to do so. I don't know what else exactly you wanted out of me by voting for me, but that's where I'm at right now.

[Kaniffee]

EBWOP: Just realized there was a major quote piece missing in my post last night.

kanife how do you repond to red calling you scum??

Kaniffe has literaly no posts about the game atm. I think they are scum who does not know how to fake contribution. And having a newbie partner makes more sense with this. Which is Jackal I'm thinking atm.

I will probably die for this read because if I am right and I survive, it will be bad for scum.

No I'm just town who doesn't know what to contribute to a 22 page game, and doesn't have that much time to. I like to think through what I post, and that takes time. At that point I didn't make game posts because I hadn't thought through it enough to feel confident in my opinions.
I'm confused. I'm a newbie. Jackal's SE. Were you saying that Jackal has me as a newbie partner or that I have Jackal as a fellow newbie partner?
The last line doesn't really make sense. Especially with you saying it outright, there's a certain WIFOM created. Now Scum might NK you to make me look bad because you said this. I don't think you being NKed or not will be able to have any indication of alignment for anyone.

[Kaniffee]

I mainly have Holden higher because it was a lot easier to go through his posts and form an opinion on him. Emps just has so many. It's hard to make sense of it all. I think he's probably town, but I'm leaving it at town/null for now until I really get time to go through his posts, likely this weekend.

[Kaniffee]

You're welcome. I hope you have a good day too.

[Kaniffee]

Oh and as far as voting goes I'll wait until Jackal or his replacement actually say something.

[Kaniffee]

@everyone Could someone who has a townread on Wagonomics help explain it to me? I can't quite see it.

For the most part I was reading based on what he

had

said. When I ISO'd him nothing he said seemed very scummy to me. He seemed reasonably active early on, so I don't think I noticed his inactivity at first, but now it's at the point of warranting a prod, so until he says more I'm weakening mine to town lean.
Besides Holden's argument which seemed like a joke anyway I've not seen many arguments for why wagon would be scum, besides the inactivity.

[Kaniffee]

I'm not "at the point of warranting a prod"?

Your last post before this one was more than a day and a half ago. Aren't prods after 36 hours of no posting? Maybe it wasn't quite at that point when I posted, but it was pretty close.

[Kaniffee]

The thing about lynching someone who's likely town is sometimes people who are town lie and muddle the game, so ultimately it's easier to solve the game without them. It's not the end of the world to not lynch scum on day 1. And it'll be easier to find scum without him there on day 2. But yeah the main hesitancy I have on voting him is the fact that he seems town, and I'd rather vote for scum if I can. Jackal's slot is my biggest scum lean rn so I want to see what ends up happening with the replacement.

[Kaniffee]

Sorry was gonna post last night, but I was too exhausted from what came up that day. @Cyrus I don't want you to post less, but If you could start using sentences with periods that would probably cut down on the confusion a lot.

[Kaniffee]

I don't like how this has slowed down a bit. Kaniffee, can you talk about who you think is mafia? Excluding Jackal's slot, I know about your suspicions. But we won't really get much there, so I want to know who you think is the other one.

Hmm yeah my other scum lean is teacher, but I'm not so sure about Jackal and Teacher being in a pair. That may just be because Teacher's harder to read as an SE, so it's still possible. I have a null on Red because while a lot of his posting seems legitimate I definitely get the impression that would look pretty town even when he is scum, so I would sus him more out of POE. I think I'm gonna need to reevaluate you and Wagonomics based on the last few pages so those are potential suspects that I had been reading as town, but I might change my mind about.

[Kaniffee]

I'll be catching up within the next 24 hours and good to go!
If anybody wants to write me a brief TL;DR that's fine ^^

I don't think any TL;DR could possibly be brief unfortunately. Though the first 6-7 pages is just 2 people arguing about the icebreaker questions iirc.

[Kaniffee]

So I read through Cyrus's long Emps post as way of doing a ISO for him, and all I got out of it was a big townie blur. Upgrading Emps to town lean because it seemed townie, and the "meta" (I'm not sure if it's actual meta when he hasn't played before) suggests that's a normal amount of posting for him.
Reading that ISO oddly enough gave me some insights into Holden that I hadn't thought of before. I feel like I was too quick to judge as town before because he made jokes. I realized that Holden said he came from Town of Salem, and since that's like the jokey 10 minute version of this game, telling jokes just might be his default playstyle, and not necessarily alignment indicative. That's's not enough on its own for me to say Holden's scum, but it definitely makes me a little warier, and I'm gonna go with null for now.

[Kaniffee]

Like, point out the important events? It's just that I sometimes miss stuff.
Claims, L-1 shenanigans, fake hammers, etc?

TL;DR ig
Well Cyrus got to L-1, he soft claimed as PR, and there was a confusing mess of fallout because of that, but it stayed L-1 for awhile. Some people think he's scum for lying, some don't. Iirc that soft claiming bit happens around page 13-14. I seriously doubt you'd be able to miss this though since it takes up 5+ pages.

[Kaniffee]

So I read through Cyrus's long Emps post as way of doing a ISO for him, and all I got out of it was a big townie blur. Upgrading Emps to town lean because it seemed townie, and the "meta" (I'm not sure if it's actual meta when he hasn't played before) suggests that's a normal amount of posting for him.
Reading that ISO oddly enough gave me some insights into Holden that I hadn't thought of before. I feel like I was too quick to judge as town before because he made jokes. I realized that Holden said he came from Town of Salem, and since that's like the jokey 10 minute version of this game, telling jokes just might be his default playstyle, and not necessarily alignment indicative. That's's not enough on its own for me to say Holden's scum, but it definitely makes me a little warier, and I'm gonna go with null for now.

hey i tryd realy realy hard i did not mean for it to get junker up so badly i was trying to say hes super town very super town. like mayor of town.

No need to be defensive it was actually a pretty helpful format to do my Emps catch-up in.

[Kaniffee]

TChill?

[Kaniffee]

Both Jackal and Cyrus are at L-3 right now. @Red I'm confused. You asked Teacher to vote with you even though you're currently voting for him.

[Kaniffee]

Oh I got confused by the page flip, nvm.

[Kaniffee]

Well you've made some good points on Teacher these last couple pages, and that combined with my own suspicions of him seems worthy of a vote. (Sorry in advance if I mess up the formatting because I'm just assuming the white box happens automatically at this point)
VOTE:Teacher

[Kaniffee]

Yeah it messed up oof.

[Kaniffee]

Press preview instead of submit and there is vote button, type in it.

Thanks
VOTE: VOTE:Teacher

[Kaniffee]

Dangit
VOTE: Teacher

[Kaniffee]

I guess it was mainly the Cyrus thing in general, but also the part about the Cyrus wagon specifically. Maybe points was the wrong word. Posts about roughly the same point would have been more accurate.

[Kaniffee]

I guess it was mainly the Cyrus thing in general, but also the part about the Cyrus wagon specifically. Maybe points was the wrong word. Posts about roughly the same point would have been more accurate.

I don't like this, you did almost the same thing with offering to lynch Cyrus earlier, what's the difference between your reason and Teacher's? Also, this wagon formed a little bit too quickly, but I suspect this is Cyrus's fault.

Almost being a key word. For one thing
I never voted Cyrus, and specifically said I was hesitant to vote him because I think he's town. The time I said I was considering actually voting Cyrus was back when before I had properly read people. Since then I've been mainly focused on my scum candidates Jackal(now Iconeum) and Teacher.
I find it funny you complained about me slowing the game by not voting, and then I actually do vote and now it's too fast for you?

[Kaniffee]

What are we at right now with Iconeum? Is it L-1 already? I have enough of scum read on him to vote, but I don't want to hammer him accidentally.

[Kaniffee]

Okay just counted and we are. @Iconeum a defense if you will?

[Kaniffee]

Oh okay then. And why the vote for Red?

[Kaniffee]

Hmm not a bad point, though Red had already stopped voting Teacher at this point.

[Kaniffee]

Realistically we only have 3 real life days left for Day 1. Only so much is gonna be sorted out in that time.

[Kaniffee]

Did Cyrus come from ToS? I thought that was just Holden and Red.

[Kaniffee]

To be fair it was before official intent.
Also @NaCl I checked your ISO and you're right about not complaining about me specifically, so I must've misremembered what someone else said as you or something.

[Kaniffee]

Yes

What part of "fine who knows"
Sounds like a confident serious vote?

It might not be confident, but that doesn't mean it's rvs either.

[Kaniffee]

NaCl
Leantown: Kaniffee, Ico

Scumclaim

What's a scumclaim?

[Kaniffee]

kanniffee side note i am vt ok i am willing to flip to prove this but my bet is now 50 on teacher and 50 on jackel

This is Cyrus's most recent claim

[Kaniffee]

kanniffee side note i am vt ok i am willing to flip to prove this but my bet is now 50 on teacher and 50 on jackel

This is Cyrus's most recent claim

Right, and then he pulls me out of there in his "four possibility" post, but leans towards Ico/Jackal being right and (NaCl-Holden) scum - option 4. Like how is this clearly town......

Also, this is not relevant to red's case on me, where he says I voted to get Cyrus to claim

and achieved my objective

. I dont see any hard claim from him any where near the time I voted, and shading me for Cyrus deciding to fake-soft-fake-vt at a time where there was no intent is motivated misreading of the game.

laughs i thought i teased you enough to where you knew i wasn't pocketing holdem can you put it back to l1 so i can clam and finally answer emps questions because i didnt wantg to answer queston 5 and 6 cuse i thought i would out my self but after i clame i can out my self

looking back at the original post though it really does look to me like he was just trying to follow "the rules" and everything that came after was a result of people (namely you since you did it first) assuming this was a soft pr. I don't see how this was a soft pr. You just said it was and others followed suit. The more I read through that section the more it looks opportunistic on your part.

[Kaniffee]

Well seeing as teacher is unlikely to be lynched, and I'm suspicious of Iconeum too (the interaction with Wagonomics has done nothing to convince me of his townness nor give me real reason to suspect Wagon), I might as well put my vote where it will make a difference.
VOTE: Iconeum
Pedit: My understanding is even outing yourself as a vanilla townie is bad on day 1 unless you have to because it helps scum narrow down who's PR. Obviously Cyrus thought he wasn't supposed to claim unless he was L-1.
Also Holden's post was at the same time, but he didn't say that Cyrus was softing.

laughs i thought i teased you enough to where you knew i wasn't pocketing holdem can you put it back to l1 so i can clam and finally answer emps questions because i didnt wantg to answer queston 5 and 6 cuse i thought i would out my self but after i clame i can out my self

What's the point of this?

If your going to write out a post about claiming a role, then why on earth does it matter if I re-vote?

[Kaniffee]

EBWOP: That's L-1 sorry I forgot to include that

[Kaniffee]

Are we allowed to know why they're being replaced?

[Kaniffee]

Ok then. I was gonna address the 8 pages I missed, but I don't even know where to begin. I guess we'll just wait for replacements. Also @mod do their votes still count or would they be nullified until we get replacements?

[Kaniffee]

Well I was on the wagon for Ico, and then 8 pages happened that confused the crap out of me. Iconeum does seem a lot townier in these later posts, and his frustrations with Cyrus seem very genuine to me. So I see Wagon as realistically townie for unvoting when he did, and I feel like there is enough uncertainty now that I can't confidently vote for him either.
UNVOTE: until something gets cleared from the rubble of whatever just happened.
And basically @Ico I voted you when I did because of previous suspicions, and the posts at the time did not convince me to change my mind.

[Kaniffee]

@Kanifee, can you tell me what you think of Red?

Red had always been a bit of a wild card to me, and it's been hard to tell what's townie, what's scummy, and what's just NAI playstyle when it comes to him.
As for what happened these last few pages besides the obvious there was one post that stuck out to me by them.

Cyrus it's ok to sheep your townreads

That just seems very weird to say.
Maybe it's some weird strategy thing, but at face value that seems scummy to me.
Also he never answered my question about what a scumclaim even is, and I'm still wondering.

Overall though at least through July 4th I'm willing to wait and see what the replacements bring.

[Kaniffee]

I guess just the idea of sheeping with someone you think is town, is kind of what scum have to do on some level because they know everyone is town, but if town is encouraged to do it too then that's 3+ people acting in a way that benefits scum. Not that voting town is always a bad move, but only doing it to sheep is what jumped out at me. Again, I'm new so there may be some deeper strategy I don't get, but that's why it stood out to me.

[Kaniffee]

@teacher do you mean literal rapping?
With NaCl i think I read him as town initially, but I've been bit conflicted with his more recent posts. Was planning on doing another iso an resorting based on that.

[Kaniffee]

I guess just the idea of sheeping with someone you think is town, is kind of what scum have to do on some level because they know everyone is town, but if town is encouraged to do it too then that's 3+ people acting in a way that benefits scum. Not that voting town is always a bad move, but only doing it to sheep is what jumped out at me. Again, I'm new so there may be some deeper strategy I don't get, but that's why it stood out to me.

That first sentence doesn't even make sense. Sheeping your townreads means you're acting in a way you think benefits town, since you should

trust

the person you're townreading.

Oh, maybe you misunderstand the term sheeping. Sheeping means taking someone else's reads for your own; replacing yours with theirs. Not

voting

them.

In the context it seemed more like a vote thing. I thought "sheeping your townreads" meant voting for someone you think is town just because other people are. Guess I'm wrong on that one.

[Kaniffee]

I'm not as caught up as you are, however I'm not as big a fan of emps as my predecessor. I'm actually surprised you are giving him as much wiggle room as you are given its your slot he's pushed a majority of the day and for *generally* weak reasoning.

I thought you replaced Red?

[Kaniffee]

I did. I'm not sure what you're getting at?

You said emps was your predecessor

[Kaniffee]

Did anyone actually go to the posts Spangled was talking about? I just gave up and got confused.

[Kaniffee]

I'm gonna give intent now. When I unvoted Ico I hoped I would see some sort of activity from it to confirm what I saw in it during the Cyrus/Red debacle, and he just posted V/LA weekend, and nothing else since. Seeing as this day is gonna end before the weekend is over I see no point in waiting any longer.

intent to hammer Iconeum; deadline 18 hours

(or whenever I actually check in on this thread whichever comes last)
As for reads list
Town: Cyrus/Spangled, Wagon
TL: Holden, Emps
Null: Red/RCE, NaCl
SL: Teacher, Iconeum

[Kaniffee]

Kaniffee, when I asked to rap with you I was asking you to explain why you are scum on my slot. You’ve repeatedly expressed suspicious, but not reasons. I want to see how you think a little more.

I have given reasons 1047 and 579. I stand by them. You can ask for clarifications on those if you like and I'll respond in the morning.

As for defense @spangled I really don't feel like looking through all the posts or assuming which ones you mentioned refer to me (since you didn't attach names to some).
I will say on 1053 that I don't see what's wrong with switching my vote from one scum lean to the scum lean that's more likely to be lynched. The teacher wagon never even got to L-1 iirc, and the people who were voting teacher with me had left for largely the same reason. Staying on teacher at that point felt like a waste of a vote.

[Kaniffee]

I can hammer now. I don't mind waiting an hour though. And I did want to respond to people's stuff before the day ended.

[Kaniffee]

I think my deadline was around now, but I'll wait if people want to. Also I'd vote for Teacher if I had any indication there'd be more than 2 votes on him by doing so, but i don't see many people going that way.

[Kaniffee]

If I post my vote foes day automatically end? Or do I theoretically have time to post before the Moderator officially ends. I tried checking the rules, but it didn't specify.

[Kaniffee]

Ebwop: moderator ends the day

[Kaniffee]

Oh so that's what twilight is okay.

[Kaniffee]

Okay.
Working on responses. Guess I'll just post day 2 if the thread gets locked beforehand.
VOTE: Iconeum

[Kaniffee]

I don't see how 668 is AI. I could just as easily be scumread if I had said "I'm not scum" or not saying explicitly either way.

Hmm not a bad point, though Red had already stopped voting Teacher at this point.

What do you mean this post is going with the flow?

NaCl
Leantown: Kaniffee, Ico

Scumclaim

What's a scumclaim?

I just found Red's post confusing, and thought that scumclaim might mean something different than what'd I assumed it would mean. I still don't get what about this is a scumclaim.

Oh and I first stated my read on Jackal in 579

Those were the main things I believe @spangled.

[Kaniffee]

@teacher I'm getting to it.

[Kaniffee]

For 1051 and 1057
First of all this doesn't change the fact that Holden said nothing about soft pr in his post at the same time as you. My point is that by you saying that he was "softing it" colors how people read the post after the fact, and when looking at Cyrus's post it doesn't show softing in and of itself. Your response to it is what made it a soft pr more than anything else. You're right that spangled agreed on it being softing, but Spangled also said that your response to it "rubs me the wrong way."
I don't remember 393 being a thing, but I'll do that in my next post.

[Kaniffee]

Oh so like I said with 393 any response to what Cyrus said after you is ultimately influenced by what you said about it if only subconsciously, so 393 doesn't count.

[Kaniffee]

As for 579, your reasoning there is that my early iso was more strategy than gameplay focused. I’ve made appr 100 posts since then (more than 66% of my iso) so simply saying you stand by that is nonsensical.

Yeah tbh this one was brought up more out of frustration for you saying I never gave reasons, and also because I wasn't in the mood to go into stuff at the time. To say I completely stand by this would be wrong, but I do think the way you talk about strategy gives you "town leadership points" that make things like what you said in 481 significantly influence how other people view the game.

[Kaniffee]

I think that's all I was supposed to respond to so bye.

[Kaniffee]

Why is it more likely? Isn't the killer and the killed both 1/8 chance of hitting individually?

[Kaniffee]

Or wait 1/7 but still

[Kaniffee]

Yeah an attempted NK is either successful or it isn't successful and even then mafia can narrow down the set up by deducing that there has to be JK and/or Doctor. If mafia doesn't attempt NK at all they just get WIFOM benefits. It's possible, but not likely.

[Kaniffee]

838 pings me a bit; 'since that's like the jokey 10 minute version of this game, telling jokes just might be his default playstyle' - something being jokey definitely doesn't mean that people tell jokes on it, and whether or not it is a genuine misunderstanding, I feel like it looks like scum just trying to invent activity from nothing, especially since they didn't really end it with any kind of point except 'it makes me warier'; it was a whole lot of nothing as a post.

729 is also a whole lot of nothing disguised as activity, especially since it ultimately is just 'wait for the replacements'.

668 has focus on the NK that I'm not sure town have so soon into the game. Ultimately probably NAI but it's still a bit off, I guess.

858 just seems sheepy on face value, especially as they never seem to express any

reasons

. Maybe I'm missing context but...

[post[1053[/post] is still pinging me. 'Well seeing as teacher is unlikely to be lynched' just looks opportunistic; if you think someone is scum make a case and see if that gets them lynched. Don't jump off on the nearest mislynch you can find. Switch your vote, sure, but still pay attention to your other, at least somewhat progressed, scumread.

This post is borne a little bit out of tunnelling, I know, but here are the things that I notice trawling back through their ISO (that you haven't mentioned - or maybe you have mentioned some, sorry about that then).

1. At the time I was planning on looking into Holden more, but other developments in the day ended up taking priority as we neared the end. I wasn't saying this was scummy, just that we shouldn't assume Holden is town because he is willing to joke.
2. I explained my reasoning for not voting yet. I don't get what the issue is? If there's a strategic issue with me waiting to vote, then fine, but I like to wait til I'm more certain before voting, at least on Day 1.
3. I was asked to respond to that post by someone, so I responded to the part discussing the NK. I never brought up NK day 1 out of the blue, so I wouldn't say I'm focused on it.
4. I didn't realize I had to give new reasons for a previously scum lean when I vote them. The thing that pushed me to vote was that I liked Red's reasoning. I get how that might look sheepy, but that's not the intention.
5. I was the 3rd person to jump off that wagon. I stayed on longer than Red or Cyrus did, and I was still engaging with Teacher at this point. I'm still not gonna waste a vote if I can tell no one will vote with me, and I'm okay with the more popular alternative.

Anywho I still suspect Teacher for reasons I made clear during Twilight.
VOTE: Teacher

[Kaniffee]

EBWOP: previously stated scum lean

[Kaniffee]

Also I use she/her pronouns. Kinda surprised when I realized I was the only one.

[Kaniffee]

My readslist hasn't really changed since the last time I posted it except that Iconeum is out.
Here it is again for your convenience.
Town: Cyrus/Spangled, Wagon
TL: Holden, Emps
Null: Red/RCE, NaCl
SL: Teacher

[Kaniffee]

I was kind of in a rush trying to get those posts out before the day ended. Formatting took a backseat. I have things to do before I go to bed so I'll deal with your response fully tomorrow.

[Kaniffee]

Yeah, are you saying the mafia passed on their kill, then?

They could have done that to let us WIFOM.

...But it would be a suboptimal strategy, wouldn't it?
They don't really gain anything out of it... I wouldn't think...
Since lack of a nightkill doesn't really change who we decide to lynch.
I don't think.

I haven't thought through all of my reads in depth in a while, so those reads are mainly based on general feeling.

[Kaniffee]

I didn't mean to quote that. I must've clicked add to quote list on accident and forgot.

[Kaniffee]

laughs i thought i teased you enough to where you knew i wasn't pocketing holdem can you put it back to l1 so i can clam and finally answer emps questions because i didnt wantg to answer queston 5 and 6 cuse i thought i would out my self but after i clame i can out my self

What's the point of this?

If your going to write out a post about

claiming a role

, then why on earth does it matter if I re-vote?

If you look at timestamps Holden and I thought the same thing at the same time. Also Cyrus said he was softing. Plus I don’t know how else to interpret “so I can clam” and “I would [o]ut my self” and “after I clame I can out my self” as anything other than saying they have a power role even now.

Why don’t you think that is saying they have something to hide until they claim???

Pedit: this is at kaniffee.

The quotes are from Curus’s 379 iirc.

For 1051 and 1057
First of all this doesn't change the fact that Holden said nothing about soft pr in his post at the same time as you. My point is that by you saying that he was "softing it" colors how people read the post after the fact, and when looking at Cyrus's post it doesn't show softing in and of itself. Your response to it is what made it a soft pr more than anything else. You're right that spangled agreed on it being softing, but Spangled also said that your response to it "rubs me the wrong way."
I don't remember 393 being a thing, but I'll do that in my next post.

This doesn’t actually answer 1051. I quoted the specific language of Cyrus’s post that was softing and asked you to explain how that language could be interpreted as anything other than a soft.
And You’re misrepping Holdens post, which did specifically refer to Roleclaiming iirc (I’m on mobile and - not surprisingly- your post didn’t quote mine to include the link)

Let's walk throught this shall we. I said that Holden's post didn't mention soft pr: a true statement. You said "If you look at timestamps Holden and I thought the same thing at the same time.": an untrue statement. Holden asked why, you assumed why. If anyone misrepresented his post it was you.

As for the language quoted in 1051, I think it's been well enough established that even outing yourself as vanilla townie is bad because it narrows down PR possibilities for scum when choosing a night kill so I disagree that "out my self" indicates PR, and claiming is just claiming, also doesn't indicate PR.

Looking at a bigger portion excluding that beginning bit (it's also in holden's post that was quoted uptop):
"can you

put it back to l1

so i can clam and finally answer emps questions because i didnt wantg to answer queston 5 and 6 cuse i thought i would out my self but after i clame i can out my self"
That is what especially indicates to me that Cyrus got it in his head that you only claim at L-1 because that's the "rule." It's more of a strong recommendation, but I can still tell that he just thought that's the way you're supposed to do it

[Kaniffee]

yo kanifee

why do you have wagon as TR

but holden as i only as TLs

Kaniffee, was 1470 supposed to be a response to this? If not, please answer the question.


@Wagon, why are you not voting for Kaniffee?

@NaCl yeah

[Kaniffee]

@Kaniffee

Okay then, I really need you to explain your Wagonomics reads. Because you've seen him as strong town all game, and I don't see it as much. Please prove your reads aren't manufactured.

Also, regarding Iconeum, could you explain more about why you were scumreading him in your last vote on him?

I just reread through Wagon's ISO and basically he just seems town without trying too hard. He just seems self-assured in his townness and it comes through in his posts. He doesn't feel the need to aggressively prove it either. I wouldn't say he's "strong town" because he isn't a very pushy town, I'm just confident in the townie vibes I get from him.

Jackal's original lack of posting and sheepy vote is what started it. With Iconeum as the replacement I didn't find its arguments against Wagon very reasonable, and I found it sus the way it pushed on Wagon out of nowhere, especially since I didn't find anything all that sus about Wagon. Its interactions with Cyrus did seem pretty genuine and made me question my sus a bit, but then Iconeum hardly posted anything after so I was left with nothing else to sort it at the end of the day, so I went with my initial judgement that Iconeum was a scumlean.

[Kaniffee]

Hey Kanifee can I help you get an avatar set up?

Oh yeah I have one in mind to use. I just haven't gone to the set up part.

[Kaniffee]

@Kaniffee

Okay. This might just be nitpicking, but I don't see why Holden seems less town than Wagonomics to you, which is where I'm mainly confused about the distinction.

For me I wouldn't say I have a huge distinction between town read and town lean besides being less certain about my town leans. I wouldn't say Holden seems less town necessarily, I'm just not as sure of it. I'm also saying this having not re-iso'd him because I'm checking in here real quick before bed.

[Kaniffee]

Its interactions with Cyrus did seem pretty genuine and made me question my sus a bit

Can you point out some of those interactions?

I'll find the specific posts tomorrow, but I'm referring to when it was talking with Cyrus right before the mod had to force replace Redflavor and Cyrus. Overall its frustrations with Cyrus in that exchange seemed genuine.

[Kaniffee]

"
The submitted avatar is 144 pixels wide and 144 pixels high. Avatars must be at least 5 pixels wide and 5 pixels high, but no larger than 120 pixels wide and 100 pixels high."
Oof

[Kaniffee]

https://imgur.com/a/S2kZtjI

[Kaniffee]

What's your reasoning for Wagon and NaCl being a likely scum team?

[Kaniffee]

but my votes staying now .

your vote was on me when you were scumreading me
then you were townreading me but you wanted me dead anyway
then you scumread me again for no reason and kept voting me
then you townread me again and bet your coins on it but kept voting me anyway
now i'm scum to you AGAIN while i've been explaining myself and you vote me anyway

don't give me that crap about potentially unvoting me

Again most of Iconeum's interaction with Cyrus in this section seemed to come from genuine frustration, but I thought this one was a good example.

[Kaniffee]

@Teacher the one you sent is the same size for some reason.
@Emps 1. I'm Bisexual 2. I like the Beatles 3. That's a picture of Paul McCartney "dabbing" during his 2002 US tour I believe.

[Kaniffee]

What's your reasoning for Wagon and NaCl being a likely scum team?

Same reason I think Nacl + Teacher is plausible. Low amount of meaningful interaction, but in different ways if that makes sense. I'm isoing Teacher now which I will touch on what I mean a little bit.

Could you explain what the difference(s) is/are? You've ISO'd Teacher, but haven't compared him to Wagon all that much.

[Kaniffee]

Kani I think these should be the right dimensions to set as avatar

https://i.imgur.com/4QMNEdC.png

It worked! Thanks!

[Kaniffee]

This vote analysis is interesting. I did think the RedFlavor push was kind of off too.
Holden, I think he genuinely thought Cyrus was scum the whole time he was voting them, so I don't really question him staying on Cyrus as long as he did.
Emps seems like he hasn't been caught up on the game much since his V/LA really got going. His voting choice near the end of the day seemed kind of erratic because of it. @Emps can you explain your thought process behind your voting and how your reads have changed during Day 1 and today?
NaCl's push on Teacher at the end also seemed off to me. 3 people were voting Teacher a few days prior, but he waits until it's basically too late to change the lynch to bring it up again. Seems like a convenient way for a scum team to distance themselves. If your SE-on Newbie-off idea is right, I think this points to a Teacher/NaCl scum team.

[Kaniffee]

VC 2.2

[1]Kaniffee:

Spangled

[1]teacher:

Kaniffee

[6] Not Voting:

emps, NaCl, teacher, RCEnigma, Wagonomics, HoldenGolden

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

The Day 2 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-07-16 19:17:46)

Mod Notes:

Mod will be V/LA this weekend, this will likely mean no prods or VCs until monday.

The votes are not updated but here's the deadline everyone. Our day 1 was very long and Day 2 definitely feels very short. We don't have a ton of time to decide on a lynch.

[Kaniffee]

Not sure how to format a vc but since then Wagon voted Teacher and Teacher voted RCE.

[Kaniffee]

Why did you join the wagon? Was it mainly out if inactivity or did you suspect Red/RCE?

[Kaniffee]

That's a weird response. Oh I meant your own inactivity not Red's. What was your suspicion exactly?
Teacher/Emps scum team might be possible too at this point. Not as glaring as NaCl's push on Teacher, but he did vote Red with no reasoning, and he was a newbie off the Ico wagon.

[Kaniffee]

His recent VCA look pretty good for him, but i dont think VCA is very useful this early on? Correct me if im wrong.

I'm not an SE so maybe it is too early, but I can't see how analyzing day 1 voting on day 2 wouldn't be a good thing to do.

[Kaniffee]

Posting to get unofficial vc page top

[Kaniffee]

unofficial VC

[3]teacher:

Kaniffee, Wagonomics, NaCl

[1]Kaniffee:

Spangled

[1]RCEnigma:

teacher

[1]Wagonomics:

emps

[2] Not Voting:

RCEnigma, HoldenGolden

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

The Day 2 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-07-16 19:17:46)

[Kaniffee]

Wait i thought it was 20 posts a page?

[Kaniffee]

unofficial VC

[3]teacher:

Kaniffee, Wagonomics, NaCl

[1]Kaniffee:

Spangled

[1]RCEnigma:

teacher

[1]Wagonomics:

emps

[2] Not Voting:

RCEnigma, HoldenGolden

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

The Day 2 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-07-16 19:17:46)

Repost for convenience of almost pagetop

[Kaniffee]

Who is Nancy, and what is Jazz in this context?

[Kaniffee]

Hydra'd?

[Kaniffee]

Also A50?

[Kaniffee]

Actually it's L-2 because Wagon moved his vote

[Kaniffee]

Oh whoops

[Kaniffee]

At this point I'm pretty set with keeping my vote at Teacher, and I don't know what to add.
@Holden where are you leaning right now between emps/Teacher/NaCl/RCE? You said that's where you think the scum is.

[Kaniffee]

Town: Cyrus/Spangled, Wagon
TL: Holden
Nulltown: Emps
Null: Red/RCE
Nullscum: NaCl
SL: Teacher

[Kaniffee]

what the fuck is up with spoilers and like dying midway through wtf

anyways basically

he has made pretty no attempts to actually scumhunt/sort people

made meme cases on people who were mostly townread at the time

says kanifee and salty boi are scum

but doesnt bother to ISO/make some sort of scumcase on them

1. Not true
2. The meme cases you were referring to actually held a valuable lesson, and had genuine insights
3. He said that there were 2 scum between Ico, me, and NaCl. Obviously Ico flipping town would make him question that hypothesis.
4. He's talked about his thoughts on me at least pretty extensively. NaCl I don't remember off the top of my head how much, but I know Wagon's talked about him too.

I've already explained why I think Wagon's town in 1523, so this is more an explanation of why I disagree with your reasoning.

[Kaniffee]

Oh and my V/LA has started. I'm moving out of my house so that's gonna be taking up a lot of my time for the coming week. I may or may not end up posting the same amount depending on how much time I have free, since It's a little up in the air right now.

[Kaniffee]

Damn okay.
UNVOTE:
I'm definitely gonna need to reread what I missed to process what just happened, but I guess I'm leaning towards RCE rn?
That slot's been null for me this whole game, but given the Teacher claim, and the deadline, I'm not seeing a better option.

I'll also try to make an updated vc but anyone else is welcome to beat me to it.

[Kaniffee]

VOTE: RCEnigma
After rereading I have a couple questions but they aren't very relevant to my vote, so I'll post those below.
Pedit: L-1

[Kaniffee]

unofficial vc

[1]teacher:

RCEnigma

[2]Kaniffee:

Spangled, Wagonomics

[4]RCEnigma:

teacher, NaCl, Emps, Kaniffee

[1]not voting:

HoldenGolden

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

The Day 2 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-07-16 19:17:46)

Too lazy to change order

[Kaniffee]

To be clear, there is a CC in 8/9 setups if this is a fakeclaim. Cop, Neap, and JK are all counterclaims.

I don't get this

teachers claim is probably real. only time where you can get away with JK fakeclaim is setup C3

How can you get away with JK fakeclaim when there's a Doctor and a Tracker in C3?

[Kaniffee]

Sorry y'all the official move out of my house was yesterday and that took all my time.
I'm VT. Holden next.

[Kaniffee]

Salt already went?

[Kaniffee]

2 questions:
1. Isn't Neap/JK combo impossible?
2. Why is the hammer excluded?

[Kaniffee]

2 questions:
1. Isn't Neap/JK combo impossible?

Interesting question; yes it is. Have you been discussing possible fake claims in your PT

Lol no. Teacher mentioned Neap and Cop were also Counterclaims to JK after he claimed.

[Kaniffee]

At this point I'm not a fan of people susing Wagon so much. To me he's the most likely town besides Holden.
Scum is probably NaCl with team in Spangled or Emps. Not sure who yet.

[Kaniffee]

Kaniffee, vote me please then. Go ahead.

Ok.
VOTE: NaCl

[Kaniffee]

At this point I'm not a fan of people susing Wagon so much. To me he's the most likely town besides Holden.
Scum is probably NaCl with team in Spangled or Emps. Not sure who yet.

Kaniffee, vote me please then. Go ahead.

Ok.
VOTE: NaCl

I don't really want a lynch just yet.

Kanifee, make your case on me, you don't feel like you're trying.

(And y'all thought I was passive when I

wasn't

V/LA )

NaCl scum is most likely to me. Not a ton of specific posts ping me except the way he sussed teacher end of day 1 and Day 2, but the overall vibe reads scum to me.

Reason for NaCl/Spangled or NaCl/Emps scum team is POE. Holden is basically conf!town (unless scum passed on they're nk i guess). I'm as certain as I can be about Wagon being Town without confirmation. Spangled and Emps are what's left, not sure which partnering is more likely.

I need to sleep too.

[Kaniffee]

EBWOP: Their

[Kaniffee]

Town priority list (someone asked for that from me iirc):
Holden
Wagon
Spangled
Emps
NaCl

[Kaniffee]

In case no one posts something in the next 2 hours, I'm camping so in the likely event I have no reception I'll be back late sunday (reminder I'm in PST)

PEdit: I agree with one of those teams (WIFOM commence)

[Kaniffee]

Nah. Though it is nice of you to say please.

[Kaniffee]

Oh now I'm more sus than wagon? Why the change?

[Kaniffee]

Apparently I get wifi for a bit. I find it unlikely that I'd be teamed with spangled logically. Me finding him to be mostly town (if only by repping in to Cyrus's slot), and him finding me to be scummy doesn't seem like a very plausible scum team, though I guess it is possible.

[Kaniffee]

Hey I'm back.
I could lie and say I cared but tbh I've been itching to replace out since day 1 bc I don't like this game, and will probably never play on here again. Lynch if you wan. I genuinely wouldn't care as town or scum.

[Kaniffee]

*want

[Kaniffee]

Spangled can do the honors ig.

[Kaniffee]

Checking in here just feels like a chore/obligation, rather than something I look forward to. Mayhaps a geriatric game would be good to try, but not for awhile. Some things just don't work out I guess. I figured sticking it out would be better than making some poor soul read through all this.
Pedit: *hug*
The more light-hearted bits were pretty enjoyable, the parts that were more jokey/conversational. You were pretty cool. I liked the lightness you added to stuff

[Kaniffee]

Bye everyone! I'll check in at the end, so this won't be the last you see of me.

[Kaniffee]

I'm surprised pushing teacher actually got to L-1, and kinda disappointed Wagon's lolhammer didn't happen.

PEdit: @teacher that's what I did with you. I thought, "if I was town, who would I think is scum."

[Kaniffee]

I genuinely thought Wagon and Cyrus/Spangled were most Townie. Holden was probably 3rd place until the conf!town

[Kaniffee]

oh yeah they said "if kani is scum with an SE partner they would tell them to not hammer/join the Ico wagon"

i did exactly that lol

And then I hammered anyway.

[Kaniffee]

That's why I thought Spangled probably should have been the nk because he was functionally a confirmed town.

[Kaniffee]

This is a problem with the newbie setup tbh

Scum screwed up a couple of times yes but town screwed up a lot more

The standard of play shouldn't be for scum to play perfectly and town to throw or else town gets a free win

Oof

[Kaniffee]

Maybe that's why i hated this

[Kaniffee]

The reason nk holden day 1 was a mistake was bc we suspected Teacher was pr and intended to nk him originally.