Newbie 1951 (Day 4)

[teacher]

It’s August. This was the longest to fire since signup that I’ve experienced in my time.

VOTE: menalque. No targeting someone on a standing vLa.

[teacher]

Fark - please get an avi. It is a courtesy version of “facial recognition” for who is writing a post. If you’re not graphically inclined, describe what you might want and I can size it.

I like the new setup too. I think it might encourage tracker claiming. I do encourage all players to wiki their roles, and in general to read the introductory mod post spoiler on the first page.

[teacher]

woa teacher still hasnt done rqs VOTE: teacher

I’m not in desktop to get the ol question Nd copy paste. I also tend to sit til the initial rush dies off. Greeting tho.

[teacher]

i overanalyzed the shit out of them and missed the simplest fucking jk crumb)

It was the best crumb ever tho

[teacher]

. What is your experience at Mafia
2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum
4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or tow
5. Time zone/utc/typical posting hours

1. Appr 20 games, mostly here but a couple on another site.

2. I effort obv-town.

3. I effort obv-town.

4. I use tone more than I used to. I also motivations, probabilities, and associations. For each post, I try to ascertain the motive behind it. Does it seem town-motivated or scum-motivated. To be sure, both town and scum have similar objectives, but they arent overlapping. Town is not as afraid of being lynched, because there will be a mislynch at some point; scum knows that their death is 50% of a loss. Town wants to out real analysis to advance the game; scum wants to repeat information that everybody knows so they can appear to be helping without actually doing it. Another key area of difference is in probabilities. Here, I cant say it much better than a strategy article from the Wiki (link). I'll speak more on associations tomorrow if Im still kicking.

5. Late night/early morning nyc time or mobile fun in free periods.

(It’s the dead “link” above that’s the hard part about copy paste.

[teacher]

teacher - mafia 60% too serious to be town PR

Site meta note - we generally don’t pr speculate in thread. If this is a genuine thought, you’re helping scum by providing. If it’s a fake thought, then you’re hurting town by leaving misleading thoughts to be baluster upon your death. All in all this thought does not help town, so shouldn’t be posted.

[teacher]

Better. I actually got pings from you but wrote them off to low activity vacation rather than hiding out and pushing away. . I feel confident saying town will be stacked this game btw skit you emps sushi etc. really like the player list and the inclination to activity I am seeing.

Emps, your reads in my experience are at above median. Why are you putting them down?

[teacher]

Spammy and menalque - talk to me about the fark early town? I’ve got a double thread greeting and an omgus. I like the activity but don’t see it rising above null. Why do you?

[teacher]

L-1?

VOTE: Farkran

Last words?

Lol, really? Ok.

I don't know if you were aware of your double vote, but hammer rushing is not just being aggressive, it's plain bandwagoning.

My town reading of you just went down to 40%

Hammer testing tends town or partner. Why does it make you scumread them?

And emps, I always reread rvs. Some of the more useful associations are there, before scum get the feel of the room and can play into/against it as needed.

[teacher]

Lol you’re strong town on Skitter just saying hi?

[teacher]

Hammer testing tends town or partner. Why does it make you scumread them?

And emps, I always reread rvs. Some of the more useful associations are there, before scum get the feel of the room and can play into/against it as needed.

That didn't look hammer testing to me. Claiming (or speaking at all) after being lynched is against the rules if i am not mistaken. That looked more like genuine rushy bandwagon.

How do you define hammertesting?

It can’t be a bandwagon because they were already there. So answer the question: why does a second, and purportedly hammer (but not) - vote strike you as scummy?

Also, why is bandwaggoning scummy?

[teacher]

Ask anyone about skitter, they'll back me up. Or

just read her gtkas, I think she talks about it in there

.

idk if we should talk about this as it's from the speakeasy and I think it's kinda scummy to bring that up knowing that

That is an incredibly bizarrely reachy take. Speaking about parts of the site is scummy how?

[teacher]

Ask anyone about skitter, they'll back me up. Or

just read her gtkas, I think she talks about it in there

.

idk if we should talk about this as it's from the speakeasy and I think it's kinda scummy to bring that up knowing that

That is an incredibly bizarrely reachy take. Speaking about parts of the site is scummy how?

He's bringing it up in support of something he's saying, but multiple people here won't have access I'm p sure, and I thought the rule was that we're not meant to talk about anything in speakeasy outside of it? So it's a way to say "hey, there's evidence for my claim" without it being verifiable/without it being something we should really be discussing, if my understanding of rules about everything in speakeasy is correct

But he also brought up asking other people.
I don’t know speakeasy rules so can’t speak on that. Just found it to be attempting to read to much into a reference.

[teacher]

Also: 30% of pagetops. @ emps.

[teacher]

Finally, having just checked, GTKAS is outside the speakeasy.

[teacher]

How do you define bandwagoning? I ask because I disagree - it wouldn’t have been wagonninf if they thought they were elsewhere, it would be hammering. So what do you mean by calling it bandwagonnjng?

Also, “hiding behind v/la” : kindly check yourself. Skitter is not only one of the best on site with no need to hide ever, but also has had a standing Friday into Sunday morning v/la for as long as I’ve known her. Hiding is a pejorative term, and one of my loves for the this site and its deadlines is the way it respects real life. Try to keep that please.

[teacher]

Also, as a sometimes mod - you can always talk until you’ve been flipped/thread locked. This is called twilight. Nah posts refer to, for example, the D1 lynch posting “bah” at the start of D2, AFTER having been flipped.

In general, if you want mod clarifications, bold it so it jumps out.

[teacher]

How do you define bandwagoning? I ask because I disagree - it wouldn’t have been wagonninf if they thought they were elsewhere, it would be hammering. So what do you mean by calling it bandwagonnjng?

Also, “hiding behind v/la” : kindly check yourself. Skitter is not only one of the best on site with no need to hide ever, but also has had a standing Friday into Sunday morning v/la for as long as I’ve known her. Hiding is a pejorative term, and one of my loves for the this site and its deadlines is the way it respects real life. Try to keep that please.

This is the second time you've been defending skitter for... no reason at all, besides her being VLA. I did not insult her, did i? I didn't even vote to lynch her, did i? Is there a rule stating that anyone on VLA cannot be scum? Care to give any reason why this is the second time you're defending her?

[meta]I'm not being disrespectful to anyone, just to let you know. The way i word my messages makes sense in this environment, i really didn't insult anyone. But no way you're going to escape my trials by avoiding to answer, regardless of the reason.[/meta]

Hiding implies an active choice not to post - ie availability/monitoring the thread but lurking. It is not appropriate for someone who is known to be away. Thus, hiding is insulting and inaccurate.

And you’ll note both my times fefending skitter have been defending vLa. As someone who is normally vLa w my kids during the weekend (they’re away this one) that’s quite important to me, and educating about sitemeta being respectful of vlas is one of the purposes of newb games.

[teacher]

It wasn’t very serious but I was crediting it. Mostly I was trying to figure out how I was going to RVs in a game where I knew and liked so many people - normally my rvs is the person I’ve played w the most but here there were like 4 equal contestants for that, so was looking for something and your post worked.

[teacher]

Hiding implies an active choice not to post - ie availability/monitoring the thread but lurking. It is not appropriate for someone who is known to be away. Thus, hiding is insulting and inaccurate.

And you’ll note both my times fefending skitter have been defending vLa. As someone who is normally vLa w my kids during the weekend (they’re away this one) that’s quite important to me, and educating about sitemeta being respectful of vlas is one of the purposes of newb games.

This is strict. I didn't call her out for cheating or anything like that. Regardless if the VLA is real or not (and i do believe it is real, i may have reasons to doubt her role in this game, but i have absolutely no reason to doubt the real person), however, there's no rule stating that you can't be scum during VLA, and most of your explanation posts are meta. I thank you for your insight to us new players, but if i were scum, i would definitely play like you are, in order to say something that sounds useful but actually isn't.

You’re ignoring the source of this whole discussion. You said Skitter was “hiding” behind vLa. I’m saying that’s wrong - she v likely hasn’t been online most of the day. That both calls you on a misrepping and provides accurate IN GAME information to people on how to assess Skitters activity.

[teacher]

How do you define bandwagoning? I ask because I disagree - it wouldn’t have been wagonninf if they thought they were elsewhere, it would be hammering. So what do you mean by calling it bandwagonnjng?

Could you actually answer this btw?

[teacher]

Hiding implies an active choice not to post - ie availability/monitoring the thread but lurking. It is not appropriate for someone who is known to be away. Thus, hiding is insulting and inaccurate.

And you’ll note both my times fefending skitter have been defending vLa. As someone who is normally vLa w my kids during the weekend (they’re away this one) that’s quite important to me, and educating about sitemeta being respectful of vlas is one of the purposes of newb games.

This is strict. I didn't call her out for cheating or anything like that. Regardless if the VLA is real or not (and i do believe it is real, i may have reasons to doubt her role in this game, but i have absolutely no reason to doubt the real person), however, there's no rule stating that you can't be scum during VLA, and most of your explanation posts are meta. I thank you for your insight to us new players, but if i were scum, i would definitely play like you are, in order to say something that sounds useful but actually isn't.

You’re ignoring the source of this whole discussion. You said Skitter was “hiding” behind vLa. I’m saying that’s wrong - she v likely hasn’t been online most of the day. That both calls you on a misrepping and provides accurate IN GAME information to people on how to assess Skitters activity.

What's wrong about that, though? Just the semantics about the word "hiding"? I didn't suggest to do anything about her today, didn't call her out for anything - yet it sprouted a reaction from you only. This is one of the main reasons why i put you on my suspects list. Perhaps i just don't know you enough as a player and person to make judgements, but this is d1 in my first game on this site and i'm following my guts so far.

Yes, the “hiding behind” is what’s wrong. It suggests something is suspect when it is not.

This post is odd though - you’re again doing the same thing with “sprouted a reaction from you only”. I reacted in 6 minutes. Are you suggesting someone else should have weighed in in that time? If not, why say it? (These are not rhetorical questions, I actually want answers)

Finally, you say “this” is one of the main reasons I’m on your suspect list. What is “this”? Defending Skitter in an RVS post?

Ps- please answer the bandwagon q as well.

[teacher]

also 10/10 misrep. i clearly stated I wasn't putting you to L-1 because I thought not every one had checked in. Menalque pointed out that everyone actually had and then I placed u at l-1

I think this was a reaction to something a couple pages ago, but could you link it?

[teacher]

Fark- sorry for the deluge of questions, but what is your native tongue?

[teacher]

stop wallposting please ty

Oh you’ll love skitters ketchup then

[teacher]

bandwagoning is the act of voting on someone who already has a reasonable share of votes for the purpose of ending the day quickly with a complete mislynch, or aiming at the least information-giving lynch of a town player (not my case, since i've been talking and addressed to so much). In a 2 mafia VS 7 town setup with a hammer on the 5th, the third vote on someone is already a borderline bandwagon move, the fourth and the hammer are much more scummy though.

I disagree on a theoretical level. Pressure is good. It generates more reactions - both from those being wagonned and those on it. After the game I’ll share some statistics on most likely spot for scum on a D1 townwagon. Hint - it’s least often the 4 slot.

What does defending the VLA accomplish? Again, is there a rule that forbids being scum while on VLA? I am questioning you, exactly the same way you're questioning me. No offense taken, no offense given.

I had taken this as rhetorical.

No there is no rule against it. But an empty slot is 75% town, as your statistics comment on the hammer shows you know. So shading an empty slot is......weird. A lurker, sure. But not someone who is known to be away.

[teacher]

This post is odd though - you’re again doing the same thing with “sprouted a reaction from you only”. I reacted in 6 minutes. Are you suggesting someone else should have weighed in in that time? If not, why say it? (These are not rhetorical questions, I actually want answers)

Finally, you say “this” is one of the main reasons I’m on your suspect list. What is “this”? Defending Skitter in an RVS post?

@Fark - just noting the other two pending questions from before the pageshift.

[teacher]

This post is odd though - you’re again doing the same thing with “sprouted a reaction from you only”. I reacted in 6 minutes. Are you suggesting someone else should have weighed in in that time? If not, why say it? (These are not rhetorical questions, I actually want answers)

Finally, you say “this” is one of the main reasons I’m on your suspect list. What is “this”? Defending Skitter in an RVS post?

@Fark - just noting the other two pending questions from before the pageshift.

No one should have weighed in, that's my point.

Again, what is the “this” in your original post?

[teacher]

Question: What are the rules on modifying quotes? Like, could I cut out the deadline part of the message I quoted since it's not really necessary? Could I take sub-quotes out so a post isn't so long? Could I lie by changing the lynches up?

At its core, the rule is to try not to obscure meaning. If I’m responding to part of a post, I only quote that part (as here). If I’m responding to a thread but only want to discuss part of it, I will (if on desktop) delete the irrelevant parts and insert ...snip.... for deletions to let people know it might not be the whole context. On a mobile I’d just quote it all tbh, or just refer to the post number and use my own “” to mark others text. As to lying, you can do it (and you could make up a quote entirely) but that would be a good way to get a quick lynch.

[teacher]

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say, like you did in 243, that you “didn’t call her out for anything” and then say, like you have multiple times, that I’m defending her. A defense is only necessary if there is an attack - a “calling out.”

So either you were attacking Skitter (and thus misrepping yourself in 243) or You weren’t attacking, so I am not defending them (and this you’re misrepping my play now).

[teacher]

also, what teacher did to "defend" skitter is completely fair and i wouldve done it if i saw the "hiding behind vla" thing (i didnt until recently cuz i was on mobile earlier)

being vla isnt scummy, and

i think teachers reaction is actually townie.

(emphasis mine)

Really? I don't think his reaction was scummy, but I don't think it was townie either. This whole argument about Skitter being on V/LA and everyone's possible reads of her

despite her only having made one post

just feels like NAI semantic squabbling to me.

i feel like teachers emotion behind the posts is genuine and idk if hes good at faking that as scum so i might do a quick read of his scum meta

Gl - only normal 2016 on site, quite a long time ago. But for the benefit of fark on the meta note, you might remember this

Teacher: Weak scum lean. Looking through it seems a lot of his posts are general strategy advice that are intended to appear as furthering the game without actually. I feel like strategy would be very NAI in a newbie game when there's less meta knowledge, so the focus on it seems like a distraction. There does seem to be some talk of players he suspects with some reasoning, so that's why it's only a weak lean.

Admittedly this was scum, but an accurate reflection of my general early game approach.

[teacher]

(The attempted quote was scum; I was JK)

[teacher]

.

i never stated i townread teacher.

and i think teachers reaction is actually townie.

Uh... ok?

One came before the other (why it’s helpful to include the whole post link thing in quotes). Also reaction (the quoted word) being Townie =/ read being Townie, though if I had to guess emps has a weak TL on me - mentally he thinks I’m likely town but is paranoid of deepwolfing.

[teacher]

I enjoy the people here and introducing the ire regardless ligament. Also semi-open is my preferred format, by far to close, because I’m semi mechanical.

[teacher]

ire regardless ligament.

Site regardless alignment. Ebwop.

[teacher]

I guess our game experiences have been very different.

Who's genuinely scumreading me though?

This was a serious question though.

I’m v unsure. The thread greeting and early game strikes me as illogical, but I don’t see the scum motivation for continuing the “hiding” discussion. I can see paranoid town at points, including in some of the random shade throwing, and some of the words you’ve been using as not being fully aware of the insinuations thy carry. I haven’t voted you for a reason.

[teacher]

all i see is weird and backwards logic and shade throwing

This is often town indicative. Scum has to be able to actually sell. Town, esp newb town, is truly paranoid and often jumps down the rabbit hole to twisted logic. I suppose hike Menalque has been trending down on fark, I’ve been trending the other way into building a consistent - if different - worldview.

[teacher]

Walls are fine by me, but you do you. I’d love to chat but would rather not influence your catchup so do that and I’ll be around (likely, the fam returns in a bit)

[teacher]

My current read of skitter is 60% town.

Do you use a 50 or a 75 baseline?

[teacher]

And what made it go up or down?

[teacher]

yeah I'm confident on creeper scum now.

Spam - thoughts on fark?

[teacher]

Here’s my issue w the wagon right now: fark has been put on L-1 twice (five votes, as skitter replaced sushi). I know I’m town and I lean heavily that way on spammy. So unless we are saying the team is exactly creeper-fark, farks likely a Mislynch.

Skit- talk to me about Menalque because I melded w you a bit there. I disagreed w the early townread on darque and his reads (there, emps) have seemed a little swingy. The meld was strong on the 180-220 bit of reaching to scumread spam after what was to me an extremely towny reaction test - like Nigeria at the player Nd looking for a rationale.

I’m not saying that’s not the team btw. But if people are inclined there, I think the higher value play is to lynch creeper.

UNVOTE: Menalque
VOTE: creeper

it should be mentioned Fark is at L-1

[teacher]

I’m scumreading one of (emps, frak) but I don’t know who yet

UNVOTE:

You’re right. It’s L-2.

[teacher]

i thought mena was voting nmsa then unvoted?

Yup. Right again. Part of the 180-220 but I was just mentioning.

[teacher]

Eh, knowing the wagon comp and timing now, I like it more. Thanks for that emps.

VOTE: Fark.

Thats L-1, folks.

[teacher]

Sorry Nexus (FYI to board, the unvoting thing is not typical). To put it in your preferred format:

UNVOTE: creeper
VOTE: Fark

[teacher]

I didn’t know it was a thing. I may have done it before, I may not have.

[teacher]

Hammer test bro

[teacher]

Also pagetop

[teacher]

Spam - flesh out your creeper read?

reminder for this page that Fark is L-1

[teacher]

3. skitter (disappeared completely, turns my townread on her down a fair bit)

Wait, let me see if the person I am talking about said anything about this.

Spoiler: They did!

5. est; mostly after work (i have a 9-5 office job), sometimes at work if it's slow and i'm bored, i'm v/la fridays and saturday

4. teacher (also disappeared completely)

Wait, let me see if the person I am talking about said anything about this.

Spoiler: They did!

5. Late night/early morning nyc time or mobile fun in free periods.

Its honestly like you dont even fucking read the game but just decided to randomly through shade.

[teacher]

You can see him changing his mind, blindly following emps's passionate reasoning, exactly two posts after declaring he wouldn't - his explanation for this action does not hold any water since i have been under pressure all the time so far.

Let me be v explicit about the reasoning. my readslist looks a fair amount like Skitters. I dont trust Menalque yet. I thought Menalque was on you.

Turns out, Menalque urged an early wagon on you, then left for VERY reachy reasoning. Meaning he could have been a partner looking for bussing cred knowing the first wagon of the day does not normally go through.

So, if Menalque was off wagon, you have two potential partners, not just one. And I like the wagon comp (Selynee, Skit, emps) alot more. AND, if Im wrong and we actually flip you, I learn that my reads on them is off base and there is likely a deepwolf in (skit/emps). Lots of good to be done.

Finally, intent has been given. You should hardclaim your role.

[teacher]

1. Selynee (tried to re-open today's conversation, very much town-like)

2.

emps (went into blindrage, calling me out for semantics rather than facts just as teacher did, cannot possibly fathom how i would make him listen to reason by now - still a possible angered townie if not goading scum)

3. skitter (disappeared completely, turns my townread on her down a fair bit)

4. teacher (also disappeared completely)

Other people's declared standings are:

Menalque: intent to hammer (the only other one willing to re-open conversation, townread increasing)

creeper: defending me (i still believe he's a newbie coming from my world and appears to understand me, very much likely VT but the possibility of mafia is significant)

sushi: defending me (for no reason at all, scummy as hell atm)

notspam: null (can't understand why he's gone out of the conversation, doesn't follow my line of thoughts about him)

I color coded scum (red) null/conflicted (purple) and town (green) reads. This is hella scumsided.

[teacher]

Hahaha. It’s not a thing here other than some emps history in 1941 and 1942. But well played.

As for participation, through your two cents to the wind. Ask anything you want to ask. State anything that you want to state. Right now I have no idea really what you actually think of much of the game - most of your posts are iioa (information instead of analysis) and its beginning to creep me out. (Well, not beginning, but hasn’t improved.....)

[teacher]

Hahaha. It’s not a thing here other than some emps history in 1941 and 1942. But well played.

wait what is this reffering to?

Pagetop bragging.

[teacher]

deep into things the same way you guys do. I probably just need to try harder, but maybe it's not my thing.

As for Farkran not claiming, I don't really read that either way. I don't really see it as a valid play from either town or scum. I think he has a reason for it, but I have no idea what that could be.

Talk to me of this mysterious beast named "Chat Mafia"

Do they have games there?

How are they solved?

"not my thing" seems like an odd deflection from someone who actually knew what mafia was like. Does your home planet rely mostly on PR/PoE play or?

[teacher]

accused people are refusing to answer

Kindly point me to anything I have refused to answer?

[teacher]

accused people are refusing to answer

Kindly point me to anything I have refused to answer?

See my post 391. Also please give your educated opinion of sushi, including details.

(Out of game: Writing from mobile so forgive me if i have an hard time using url quotes)

OK, first issue: If you have a question for a slot, direct it. 391 was a rambling diatribe on Emps, me, Creeper, sushi, and ends with "Thoughts?" Thats not me refusing to answer a question.

Second, I think you are scumreading me, a town. For reasons you havent disclosed. I think you havent asked any questions of me or otherwise tried to flesh out your read of me, or of anyone else, until now. Which makes me feel like you auto-piloted on me -- the same way I feel like you have been manipulating your reads of other slots to see what would help you best survive.

Third, on Sushi - she is a hard slot for me to read generally. Here, I have strong gut hard town pings. Trying to rationalize it into words makes it weaker tbh, but there are reasons there. First, she did the same thread greeting as you in 32. But unlike you, with her, I townread it because she has experience with the site meta and could be using it to evaluate the board. Second, I melded on her early read of your play. Third, her answers and self-meta in 120 are remarkably accurate, and consistent with how she has approached the game. Fourth, while her posting style has been slightly more conversant this game, the same cautious mentality is there as well -- a player who is playing v consistently with my expectation of them is one I think did hit the probability of rolling town. The several clarification questions are likewise consistent with my expectation of a polite, cautious hunter who tries to understand minds (e.g. 201, 216, 217, 220, 274). OVerall fairly strong town.

Finally, since its late enough in the day - intent is floating - I will share my readslist in full:
Emps
Sushi-Spam
Skit Selynee
Menalque
Creeper
Farkhan

[teacher]

L-x is a way to convey how far away a player is away from a lynch. For example, you should always announce that you are putting someone at L-1 (1 vote away from a lynch) so that someone doesn’t come along and accidentally vote for that players lynch. This also prevents Mafia-aligned players from coming along and placing the final vote to lynch (“hammer”) and claiming ignorance about doing so.

Menalque wouldn't have claimed ignorance, he would have claimed i was playing like shit and got pissed about me do he ragehammered. Talking from experience, happened a million times and most people got away with it due to newbie shielding

Lolhammers are a pretty great way to hop into the next-days spotlight, whether on P 6 or 19. Doing it proper actually tends to avoid the focus.

Part of doing it proper requires the wagon target to claim. There really isnt a good reason to stall that out, regardless of your role. There is a reason this is longstanding site practice, observed by all players -- it benefits town.

[teacher]

Yes, you have thrown shade my way, saying Im not engaging (A) but Buddying (B). A and B are inconsistent. Either I am engaging and buddying/pocketing (both are used interchangeably here, though pocketing is more usually assoicated with a scum implication); or I am not engaging. You cant do both at the same time.

If politeness is a scumtell, you need help. Politeness is just decency/playstyle. Playstyle -/ alignment. I can link all the aggressive scumms (Robbnva tends to be a good example here) and the polite ones (youre playing with several I have experienced).

At no point in all of this shade have you quoted a post of mine and explained why it comes from scum more often than town. Nor have you explained why a 2 person scum team would be more likely to openly buddy and joint vote rather than largely ignore each other -- this from someone who is hunting primarily on pre-flip associations, which are crap. And you ignore my prime thrust, that you never asked any questions of me or otherwise tried to flesh out your read of me, or of anyone else, until now.

[teacher]

intent

teacher, how are you feeling about menalque right about now?

He's where I would go next. The naked intent doesnt do much for me. I havent felt him in the way I would expect to, scum or town.

PEDIT: Yea, but two SEs have both told him its antitown to do. The doubledown on it strikes me as almost playing a TSTBS try.

[teacher]

i kinda feel like if he were scum with like anyone in this game other than maybe ... creeper i think he'd be told to tone down some stuff (like announcing town prs in thread) and that doens't seem to be happening, he's just kinda digging himself into a bigger and bigger hole of his own making

Eh, I see alot of this reasoning and its kinda contradicted by life. In almost all of my completed games, the scum PT is a wasteland. And I think Fark's personality (regardless of alignment) is not to take advice and play their own style.

[teacher]

Its D2 of a 10 day phase. And I get her vibes. That's the debate I had, and I decided to come down on the lynch side of it but was narrow. I think I kinda like the cold feet, but feel like there should have been a claim.
UNVOTE: Fark
VOTE: Menalque

[teacher]

menalque: still very trollish, offers decent analysis from time to time. Reasoning behind analysis is appropriate, so i'm at a loss here. Looks strongly town PR to me, although i find it hard to believe at this point.

again, whatever your alignment is, it's a p bad idea to keep repeating this in thread

if farkran is scum i think it almost has to be with another newbie

Sorry for not playing by the manual - i already explained my reasons though.

i understand, i'm telling you that on this forum you'll be scumread for doing this, and might get lynched over it

it's considered to be a very very big no no

Eh, then i can only say you should really be more open minded about it. It's not like i'm not listening to you, i just strongly believe i am correct in doing what i am doing right now, and i feel like following the manual is wrong about every time, even if i get lynched for it. Perhaps, next game i will learn from you and you will learn from me.

Why does it benefit town to openly PR speculate?

[teacher]

Why does it benefit town to openly PR speculate?

I explained myself a few posts ago - in this setup, mafia does not need such information, therefore hiding it is only detrimental to the town in my eyes. If you need an actual quote, please ask me again and give me a few minutes since i'm on mobile.

Youre right, you did say that.

Why does Mafia not need that information, though? Surely a roleblocker would like their action to be successful? Surely goons would love to kill a cop?

Try it another way. How does town benefit from open PR speculation?

[teacher]

@Sushi - what do you think of my take on you?

[teacher]

@Skit: I cant tell if its just cold feet with much time left to play or if youve moved Fark up to null or are even towning. Where are you?

I ask because if youre town, Menalque (the intent) seems like an odd switch rather than reevaluating your reads of me/emps/selynee?

[teacher]

yeah I'm confident on creeper scum now.

Spam - thoughts on fark?

Spam - flesh out your creeper read?

reminder for this page that Fark is L-1

heres two questions for you Spammy.

[teacher]

Why the team with menalque though?

Also bedtime for me, i will unvote and resume tomorrow

UNVOTE: teacher

Twice now you’ve unvoted me - why? Both time you’ve been th only vote, so it’s bit like I’m in danger of being the lynch. I had assumed last night to be you coming slightly off of scumreadjng me, so I saw the morning return as a bit of omgus. But now you do it again for no reson.

And which ten w Menalque - you or creeper?

[teacher]

I'd like you to flesh out your read on me too, teacher. I've shown up pretty low on your recent list, and you seemed to turn against me around the same time as Spam did.

You’re an empty slot, but by choice not availability. You haven’t participated in the game. And you’ve resisted doing so when pushed.

I’ve expressed my thoughts on similar slots before:

(im good w/ your lynch......) “for a reason that seems callous -- if red, which I think is >rand, great. IF green, still not bad. I do believe in the 1:1 on and off wagon, so a green flip would have told me to reexamine my townreads. But given that [creeper] has not contributed any scumhunting OR (and the OR is in fact important here) claimed VLA to return at a date certain, even a green flip would have also removed a liability. This a lesson I learned a little later in my time on MS, but it makes sense to me. D1 and D2, you should of course try to scum hunt. But you should also get rid of town liabilities -- nullish folk that scum wont kill. Town liabilities should not make it to lylo because (1) they are an easy mislynch for scum to push and win the game, and (2) they havent been invested enough to have game-saving reads themselves.”

[teacher]

However, @teacher @menalque i'd like your educated read on nmsa before i take any actions today, could you deliver?

NMSA in my experience (two town games) plays lazy D1s. I’d ordinarily feel about the same as w Creeper without the experience - I’ve pushed their D1 lynch as a compromise both times in the past, and both times they have been town. Here, however, is not ordinary. They did proactive things - the reaction test, and among the first to direct attention to Creeper. I’m feeling better about this being town.

[teacher]

Good morning again, everyone

And which ten w Menalque - you or creeper?

I think i have overlooked this question last night - are you implying either me or creeper could be menalque's partner? I'm not sure if i got the meaning of your post correctly - .

You didn’t. I was asking you to clarify your 508 - who the question was to and what the question was about.

[teacher]

I still see teacher is very eager to jump on trains and i don't like this at all.

Ummmmm ..... show work please?
I have voted four times.

• Menalque in RVS - first on wagon and left it there because I found them scummy
  
• Creeper - first on wagon again, so not jumping on train
  
• you - admittedly fourth on wagon, but immediately after pushing against as you yourself noted (hardly eager?)
  
• back to Menalque - only second on wagon, and a slot I’d already expressed suspicions of.

How is this more eager than Emps (a developing TL putting you at L-1), or Skit (you/Menalque)? More generally, how do you expect a lynch to happen without working with your townreads to find a mutually- agreeable lynch and form a wagon?

[teacher]

teacher you haven't had any more scumgames since the last time i played with you, right? (the mini with scum!nomnom like a month and a half ago)

Nope, that was actually my last game. I was in three at the time and pretty burnt out.

[teacher]

UNVOTE: Menalque

Spoiler: Farks Evolution

Menalque: town 60%

Most pro-town people at the moment are notmyspam, Menalque, possibly sushi.

menalque: still very trollish, offers decent analysis from time to time. Reasoning behind analysis is appropriate, so i'm at a loss here.

Looks strongly town PR to me

, although i find it hard to believe at this point.

Menalque: intent to hammer (the only other one willing to re-open conversation, townread increasing)

Menalque declared his intent after hours of silence, does not make sense as scum since he would have hammered, period.

@everyone i'm thinking that menalque would be a good information sacrifice so far

VOTE: Menalque

I legit do not get how the guy who wrote all the things in the spoiler, especially the PR spec, flips it up and votes Menalque WITHOUT EVER OFFERING A SCUMREAD. The best that has been offered is an information lynch.

That is hella survivalistic. Especially since their reads have not flipped. They still scumread me, and acknowledge that me-menalque cannot be a team. NO SENSE.

[teacher]

VOTE: Farkran

[teacher]

I think I'll trust teacher's meta for now)

FWIW, here's me (as Town Friendly Neighbor) saying the same thing about SPAM when he was in fact being lazier. Defending him as lazy town on entry then pushing him as a counter-wagon late

[teacher]

@Menalque, talk to me about Skit's Emps read. I could see that by scum!skit pocketing, but

I dont think by scum!skit on a partner?

Like that read opened me up to seeing the playfulness in Emps's posts (and yes, he can powerwolf) in a more safe/open/revealing manner because I thought it was confirming my inclination on emps' alignment regardless of skitters. But do you disagree with the underlined?

[teacher]

Speaking of teams, @emps @teacher who do you see me teaming up with if i am scum? Think carefully.

At this point I honestly don’t care. Someone who swaps onto a town PR after townreading them most of the game can go. preflip associatives are crap.

[teacher]

He basically omgussed the whole train against him while forgetting i ever existed and this does not make any sense as a town player.

Um, it absolutely does? If you’re town and wagonned, you figure a scum is on it, ya?

[teacher]

Skit given your read could you comment on farks Menalque evolution?

[teacher]

Kk

[teacher]

I see it, and think it is possible. I just think it’s the more complicated position, when there is a simpler explanation (actually more than one).

I’m surprised you’re not seeing the survivalism. The Menalque (lack of) evolution is just he most blatant example. I feel like most of the reads - actually not me - have altered in ways that correspond with how Fark thinks they see him. I think the stalling on cloning is surivlistic. There’s more, but I’m mobile.

[teacher]

How the fuck do you guys think fark town?

mena is way off his scum meta imo

ok talk to me about this ?

Also btw, since I know you believe in meta, does D1 scum!enps in 1941 affect your thoughts (on review it didn’t me, but I wanted to raise)

[teacher]

Fair nuff. It’s my best read. I’ll go creep, but I think Menalques off my D1 list.

Idk how I felt about selnyees question to creeper. It stuck to me but not for any reasons I can come up w. How bout you?

[teacher]

I'm trying to reread things by inverting my pov like "what would happen if teacher is actually town" (

still scumreads me; rest of para snipped

However, Sushi/menalque is kinda reachy in my mind since i find it hard to believe there were exactly NO SCUM on my train and none of the two attempted to rush hammer me when i was at L-1. Creeper is also unlikely for the same reason. A teacher/menalque team is very unlikely. (

by eliminating these three, and his expressed townreads of skitt and NMSA**, Fark is saying the only slots pairable w Menalque are emps (see below) selynee ON WAGON and Creeper. Why would someone with an associative bent join the largest wagon w TWO OF HIS scumreads on it other than to survive?

....snip......

I guess that emps might tho, and he’s been kinda pinging me for a while. So if I can get to a TR on teacher/NMSA that’s my best candidate (

this is the evolution issue in a nutshell. Fark has a clear town read on NMSA, and a clear scumread on me, until now. Why does he deny the townread here. And he does so in order to go from scum to TL to at least midlining — all the while getting on a wagon w me targeting an earlier town PR read??

Sorry to do online comments but easier than multi quote in mobile. As it shows the issue isn’t just the evolution on Menalque, but also on emps and NMSA are failing the coherent band of your try. I get they approach the game differently and have different views on protown play. But my fundamental issue is not seeing the consistency in application of that approach.

[teacher]

@ skit 633
Farks 600 is exactly my issue. It gives a reason to TL emps, whereas 540 at least says that’s his - charitably reading- third bigger scumlean after me and Menalque. Like I’m seeing what your saying on different standards and D1 goals but the step I’m missing is I’m not seeing logical application of those standards.

[teacher]

I'm trying to reread things by inverting my pov like "what would happen if teacher is actually town" (

still scumreads me; rest of para snipped

However, Sushi/menalque is kinda reachy in my mind since i find it hard to believe there were exactly NO SCUM on my train and none of the two attempted to rush hammer me when i was at L-1. Creeper is also unlikely for the same reason. A teacher/menalque team is very unlikely. (

by eliminating these three, and his expressed townreads of skitt and NMSA**, Fark is saying the only slots pairable w Menalque are emps (see below) selynee ON WAGON. Why would someone with an associative bent join the largest wagon w TWO OF HIS scumreads on it other than to survive?

....snip......

I guess that emps might tho, and he’s been kinda pinging me for a while. So if I can get to a TR on teacher/NMSA that’s my best candidate (

this is the evolution issue in a nutshell. Fark has a clear town read on NMSA, and a clear scumread on me, until now. Why does he deny the townread here. And he does so in order to go from scum to TL to at least midlining — all the while getting on a wagon w me targeting an earlier town PR read??

Sorry to do online comments but easier than multi quote in mobile. As it shows the issue isn’t just the evolution on Menalque, but also on emps and NMSA are failing the coherent band of your try. I get they approach the game differently and have different views on protown play. But my fundamental issue is not seeing the consistency in application of that approach.

Second bolder paragraph edited to remove creeper due to my error. But thats EXACTLY my point. Fark previously townread Menalque. He switches for a weak reason (imo - inverting reads based on a new wagon is understandable) despite all the analytical signs pointing against.

Like the only two possible partners in THEIR analysis are emps (who Fark has been evolving into a townread on, as expressed when criticizing me and in his discussion of emps tunneling) and Selynee who is on the wagon he is joining along with his biggest scumread - me. Why oh why would you ever do that? That’s not logical application of their approach. That’s not “practicing what they preach”

**i admit in a bit of a one trick pony at this point. I’ll stop in Fark now with one question - are they out of your comp pool skit?

[teacher]

I think I get it. I don’t agree, but that is what it is.

Talk w me about the Menalque wagon “stalling out”. I didn’t see it happening before Farks vote. I feel like it was more game than wagon if that makes sense - that it wasn’t the wagon but the normal drop in activity after an early rush. Did it actually feel stalled to you? (This is more a gestalt/worldview question than a factual one, just curious about the “feel” of the game others described.

Do you think there’s a way to get creeper in? If not, any interest?

[teacher]

teacher is town for not (or bad); votes menalque for having read changes that don't logically follow

Here is the disconnect. I wasn’t towny for reconsidering my post arguing against his lynch, that reconsideration was scummy. And Menalques read changes absolutely logically follow from a wagon on him - if reconsideration is town, why is it town only when it benefits him and scummy when it doesn’t (either to vote him or as an excuse to vote the counter wagon). That’s why I disagree, but I do get it, the other points more so than this one.

[teacher]

Why’d you leave me Nd only need of the list?

[teacher]

Teacher wasn't tunneling until last posts, now he's tunneling harshly which does not make any sense to me.

Nope. I just reject the idea that you shouldnt push your hardest scumread because of difficulty pairing them. Bussing and pocketing are both things. On D1 in particular, I dont care as much about associatives (as Ive said multiple times). For someone who has adopted Skitter's "understand different approaches" as his banner, you should try practicing it.

Town!emps now makes a lot of sense, but no way i am following his logic aka "mind meld" with him on my votes.

So if I understand your posts correctly, at the time of 540, you also thought Emps was town. (I mean thats what I get from 475, but I did confuse Menalque's words with yours due to the quoting issue). That means the ONLY player you could pair Men with was Selynee, yet you joined a wagon with both me and them on it?

You are also very wrong about the PR rep. I said he was attempting to play like one, not that he is.

No. What you actually said was "looks strongly like town PR to me." 381. Attempting to play /= looks strongly like.

Also by this site standards Menalque should have claimed already, am i correct?

No, claims only come after intent. HE is not on L-1 (I dont think?)

[teacher]

possibly genuine he'd consider Farkan's vote on Menaloque as coming from scum given the PR speculation (even though he said he doesn't actually think Menaloque is PR there).

It's not the PR Spec; that's icing on the cake.

It is the pure survivalism joining the biggest wagon (bandwaggoning to use his term) with his biggest scumread (me) and the only slot he can pair w/ menalque (Selynee) on a slot he had previously townread. IF the reasons were strong, maybe. But his werent -- all the good reasons to SR Menalque happened while Fark was TRing. Fark's reason to SR Menalque -- evolving reads -- would make sense as a wagon reaction if Fark was genuinely trying to sort.

In short, I see 540 and Fark's 180 on Menalque as a scumclaim, regardless of other play. That's why I have an itch I just cant stop scratching. That's also why I immediately got off and called it out -- again, another point that should be PAINFULLY obvious considering how explicit I made it, yet Fark pretends to have no idea why I did it (and uses it to cast shade):

i wonder why he jumped off Menalque's in this context

I dont think Fark is genuinely trying to sort/understand me. I dont think they genuinely tried to sort/understand Menalque. In both cases, the simple explanation was pretty obvious for a player as experienced as they are: I wont vote w/ my biggest scumread; Menalque doesnt think his wagon can be all town (a point Fark agrees with when it comes to Fark's wagon). But they ignore that logic to push.

[teacher]

So if I understand your posts correctly, at the time of 540, you also thought Emps was town. (I mean thats what I get from 475, but I did confuse Menalque's words with yours due to the quoting issue). That means the ONLY player you could pair Men with was Selynee, yet you joined a wagon with both me and them on it?

Teacher/mena can be a thing as of now. Selynee never joined the mena train, another casual misrep that is hardly coming from town!teacher. I also never cleared sushi. All in all you seem to be really panicking now, which makes me even more confident that mena is a good info lynch at the very least - chance of scum flipping are quite high tough.

1. You're right on Selynee. My bad.
2. Youre wrong on Sushi. The VERY same post says "Sushi/menalque is kinda reachy in my mind since i find it hard to believe there were exactly NO SCUM on my train and none of the two attempted to rush hammer me when i was at L-1." 540. No, it doesnt use the word clear, but thats certainly the implication.

No. What you actually said was "

looks strongly like town PR to me

." 381. Attempting to play /= looks strongly like.

Looks strongly town PR to me

,

although i find it hard to believe at this point

Misrep again.

Nope, quoted you verbatim and linked it.

[teacher]

Menalque was 2nd on my train and gave intent to hammer. At first i thought he was attempting to unstall the game, but reviewing from scum!mena pov it's very possible that he is actual scum.

Also read my 381 again. You are are wrong. Hardly believing something = i don't think it's true = i think he is NOT a town PR.

Right, but you were quite clear he was town (sealso 404. So it was a slot you had seen at town and recognized a possibility it was PR, but still joined your biggest SR to try to get a claim?

*****

As an aside, despite my belief you are scum, I want to give you credit for the Townie things I’m seeing. Another one is that I have made mistakes and you aren’t jumping up and down on them despite your scumread. That’s not only pleasant personally, but also is a towny action imo (even if it doesn’t outweigh my other thoughts).

[teacher]

Why are we teaching the newbies to use associatives without flips?

Who is this to?

[teacher]

Skit I think were going to need to compromise, and that slot is basically the compromise. Maybe Selynee - I need to reread todays stuff, which Im not going to be able to do until tomorrow. But Menalque is off the day's list for me in the same way that Fark is for you.

FWIW, I think Menalque's posts of today are fairly town-indicative for him, especially the nuance on Fark which you can also find in my posts.

Have you had a chance to go over 1941!emps?

I cant chat tonight, so somewhat of a prodge.

[teacher]

I’m gonna be online in like 30 and tipsy. Slots happened but leave me any questions you want as well.

Men’s, is like you to put the skit evolution into words, because although I see it I want verbalizatiob.

Emps, same on mena- you earlier said way off scum meta so what changed?

[teacher]

No, autocorrect just doesn’t like me and I don’t much care since I think the meaning is clear (slots=alots; verbalizatiob = verbalization). Fat fingers little screen and all.

[teacher]

It’s more that I want to see if what I see is the same as you and I don’t want to give mine away.

[teacher]

We’re melding in one other thing and if we are melding in this I might get over my early game dislike of you.

[teacher]

@Menalque, talk to me about Skit's Emps read. I could see that by scum!skit pocketing, but

I dont think by scum!skit on a partner?

Like that read opened me up to seeing the playfulness in Emps's posts (and yes, he can powerwolf) in a more safe/open/revealing manner because I thought it was confirming my inclination on emps' alignment regardless of skitters. But do you disagree with the underlined?

You never answered this also, I don’t think.

[teacher]

after what I think was my most contributive post at the time.

This, presumably, is the post you're talking about.

Spoiler:

That's the problem. I'm having trouble looking deep into things the same way you guys do. I probably just need to try harder, but maybe it's not my thing.

As for Farkran not claiming, I don't really read that either way. I don't really see it as a valid play from either town or scum. I think he has a reason for it, but I have no idea what that could be.

how does a chat mafia game play out

So far it's actually been kind of the same as this game. Random votes happen, then other things happen that I've never really been able to understand.

That's the problem. I'm having trouble looking deep into things the same way you guys do. I probably just need to try harder, but maybe it's not my thing.

As for Farkran not claiming, I don't really read that either way. I don't really see it as a valid play from either town or scum. I think he has a reason for it, but I have no idea what that could be.

how does a chat mafia game play out

Mechanically, games are mostly the same. It's just the fact that here, we have so much more time to discuss, analyze posts, etc. Deadlines are measured in days instead of minutes. I've been assuming that makes a massive difference in play, but thinking about it, I guess it's not so different after all. I also realize now that the way I brought up my past was a bit misleading - I have a lot of experience, but that doesn't make me any better at the game. There are people from PS (that's my homeworld) who analyze things just as well as people here. Maybe the problem is I've been comparing everyone on this site to myself rather than other players from PS.

i mean ... does analysis happen in your chat mafia games? like i'm confused why having more time is hindering your ability to analyze here ... ? if anything i think it'd be easier since you aren't rushed?

Problem is I never really had the ability to analyze in the first place. In addition, there's more time to go over posts, but also a lot more to go over. Like I said, it might not really be so different from here after all.

yeah I'm confident on creeper scum now.

Spam - thoughts on fark?

Spam - flesh out your creeper read?

reminder for this page that Fark is L-1

heres two questions for you Spammy.

I'd like you to flesh out your read on me too, teacher. I've shown up pretty low on your recent list, and you seemed to turn against me around the same time as Spam did.

What, exactly, does that contribute? No reads. No analysis. Just why are you scumreading me. Nope.

Im good with this going away, but think there is productive sorting left to do today, so not going to wagon hop yet.

[teacher]

Basically 519,

220.

(I mean, 223, 358, 417).

When discussing specific posts, kindly link. You do this by

Code: Select all

Basically [post]519[/post],

[post]220[/post]

[teacher]

Fine

Just loudly repeating that i still think menalque is scum

VOTE: epic

Oh, I agree. I just think creeper is better for today.

Can you walk me through your menalque thoughts? Since the reaction test, youve been sitting back and being more the D1 Spam Im familiar w.

[teacher]

Look again at train comps. 1 and 3 are almost the same. No scum in both? I don't believe so.

There have been multiple trains (4, not 3):

• 119
  on Farkran
  : Seleynee, Sushi Martyr, Emps, Menalque (Sushi unvotes after hammer test)
  
• 368
  on Farkran
  : Seleynee, emps, skitter30, teacher (Menalque gives intent in 399; Skitter leaves in 474)
  
• 540
  on Menalque
  : NMSA, Teacher, Skitter, Farkran (Teacher leaves in 541)
  
• 768
  on Creeper
  : NMSA, Seleynee, Menalque, Skitter (Menalque leaves in 790

You say 1 and 3 are almost the same. I assume you are talking about 368 and 768. But Spam is new. Emps is off. And Im off. So I dont get why you say they are so similar????

[teacher]

Skit I think were going to need to compromise, and that slot is basically the compromise. Maybe Selynee - I need to reread todays stuff, which Im not going to be able to do until tomorrow. But Menalque is off the day's list for me in the same way that Fark is for you.

Why selynee?

Because they havent been much of a presence in the game but have been on almost all the wagons except Menalque - where she certainly wasnt pushing against. Like lowkey flexing them through. Mostly because Id want to see them react to pressure.

[teacher]

Right, but you were quite clear he was town (sealso 404. So it was a slot you had seen at town and recognized a possibility it was PR, but still joined your biggest SR to try to get a claim?

Wasn't strong on menalque being town, faking PR is not a plus. My

initial 60% read i

s what i believe you would call townlean (null being 50%). And guess what, my biggest SR immediately jumped off the train BEFORE the accused had a chance to clarify his crappy defense post. I could have reconsidered my read on you slightly, had you waited, but you didn't.

You are misrepresenting your own position on Menalque. It wasnt 60%. That was 161. Right before your vote, you called him your second "most pro-town" (231), and said your "townread was increasing" (OF NECESSITY, BEYOND 60%) in 404, a point you doubled down on in 439.

To go from that, to voting the biggest wagon -- with your biggest scumread -- reeks of survivalism. And misrepresenting your position isnt great either.

[teacher]

I would have pursuited teacher in case of scum!creeper though.

Explain this logic, please?

[teacher]

Emps
Sushi
Spam
Creeper -- Null, but ok to lynch. MY only hesitation is that. as best I can figure, everyone but Fark is OK lynching this. Since I SR Fark, that doesnt much change it
Seleynee
Fark

Im intentially obscuring my position on Menalque/Skit pending Menalque's answers

[teacher]

What were you afraid of, if you believe i'm scum? That my partner would quickhammer him? Then you would have won d2 by lynching me and then mena's hammer, gg for town, am i wrong?

Logic fail. Putting a player at L-1 is inherently risky -- lolhammers happen, and Menalque had been playing scummy enough (FMPOV) to get a townie to give intent, and have him be forced to claim. I did not want a claim from him due to your vote. So yes, I leave immediately to avoid a possibility of intent if something smells off as 540's vote clearly did when measured against 404's "townread increasing."

[teacher]

Recent posts have had totally natural flow, as (smh that I am saying this) fark noted. That was going into Sushi's head. Like I completely disagreed with spam's reaction.

[teacher]

yea, that was my recollection of her from 1938 too. Just not troubled by how she has played.

[teacher]

Alright, it’s three days to deadline and a weekend. Let’s get a claim.

VOTE: creeper
That’s L-1

[teacher]

Didn’t see this page. Fair enough on the wagons. I did overlook emps intent.

I do think skit/Menalque has a scum. I do want Menalque to come back in today and give words.

[teacher]

Who would you have tracked? Why?

[teacher]

I disagree. Once they became a thing it’s obvious that ploy wasn’t working.

Creeper, did you crumb your role at all?

[teacher]

UNVOTE: creeper

[teacher]

And how does believing it affect your read on Fark?m

Don’t forget the skit thing either.

[teacher]

Because I’m online and there is discussion of the claim to be had that is better had not at L-1. Scum could of course wuickhammer, and that’s a net positive for town, but I’d rather have not just your and my perspective.

[teacher]

Yea the setup was designed to prevent claimbreak strategies, which also limits fakeclaims.

Like scum never claims this in column B, because there is a 66% chance of being countered. Same in A+C because of A1!cop and A3! mason.

So actually with setup reflection Im inclined to credit this.

[teacher]

768 on Creeper: NMSA, Seleynee, Menalque, Skitter (Menalque leaves in 790

This almost certainly contains a scum.

@Menalque, I really need that skitter evolution verbalization.

[teacher]

Because they havent been much of a presence in the game but have been on almost all the wagons except Menalque - where she certainly wasnt pushing against. Like lowkey flexing them through. Mostly because Id want to see them react to pressure.

Makes sense though I don't exactly see why I could have had a TR on Menalque.

In fact, I think you did at least from skimming your ISO. But then why werent you pushing against/pushing a different person?

[teacher]

Fine

Just loudly repeating that i still think menalque is scum

VOTE: epic

Oh, I agree. I just think creeper is better for today.

Can you walk me through your menalque thoughts? Since the reaction test, youve been sitting back and being more the D1 Spam Im familiar w.

[teacher]

there is a simpler explanation (actually more than one).

Thats the other explanation - you as a PR.

OK. Dont out the partner now (its a narrow enough field without it).

[teacher]

VOTE: Creeper

[teacher]

I've been more reticent on fark than I think I might have been and I think you know why

This is also why I was coming around on Menalque for playing the same possibility.

[teacher]

Is it customary to give intent in any and all circumstances?

intent

, anyways.

Yes, it is customary except for deadline pressures. It isnt necessary here.

TBH, though, I think town benefits from playing out the day and chatting more so Im going to take the hammer away from scum as well.

UNVOTE: Creeper[/vote]

But Im not voting anywhere else.

[teacher]

UNVOTE: Creeper

[teacher]

We also crumbed way earlier in this thread

For the benefit of newbs, this is the right way to play Masons for sure - an early convoluted crumb whose key is in your PT in case you get NKed. Well done.

[teacher]

I dont think Menalque is the solve tho. I think he would have discussed safeclaims - his last scum game involved a counterclaim-off. I also think he coaches in the scum-PT more -> to be active and how to respond. I mean it is certainly possible and would be fine lynching him, but want to raise that.

I need to reevaluate the other newbs.

@Menalque, in case it wasnt clear, its time to talk about your skitter evolution.

[teacher]

Great. See no setup with both masons and tracker.

See Column A, row 2 and row 3.

Yea, but those are each 1 setup. A game is either A2 or A3; cant be both. That is why your claim is a counter to his, and more credible. (I think you know this, just that your response to Selynee is ambiguous).

[teacher]

119 on

Farkran

:

Seleynee,

Sushi Martyr, Emps, Menalque (Sushi unvotes after hammer test)
368 on

Farkran

:

Seleynee

, emps,

skitter30

, teacher (Menalque gives intent in 399; Skitter leaves in 474)
540 on Menalque: NMSA, Teacher, Skitter, Farkran (Teacher leaves in 541)
768 on

Creeper

:

NMSA, Seleynee,

Menalque,

Skitter

(Menalque leaves in 790

I color coded the above based on current claims and which one I believe. Assuming Creeper flips red, I think Fark, Spam, Seleynee, and Skitter are all town-cleared.

That is helpful to reverse apply to the Fark wagon, which pretty much has to have a scum. I think it makes the lynch pool essentially (Menalque-sushi-me-emps), such that we only really have to remove one. I'll take the 75%ev with pleasure.

[teacher]

In this setup, mafia can talk during the day in the same way masons can, am i correct? How come creeper has been playing that poorly if he could communicate with... anyone either than him here? Even i, with my inexperience of this site standards, would have told him to actually DO SOMETHING and i swear, no way he would have claimed a PR if i was his partner and he could read me.

Yea, they can. But you will find most scumchats are vastly underutilized. Still, I think thats the biggest argument against Menalque, who used his heavily in 1938. Could be Creeper just doesnt like scum and so wasnt active enough there or willing to follow instruction.

I do think 65 looks like a goad to misread. And his early game was scummy AF so that + the wagon analysis earlier + my reads on emps/Sushi would make him my choice for tomorrow either way.

[teacher]

119 on

Farkran

:

Seleynee,

Sushi Martyr, Emps, Menalque (Sushi unvotes after hammer test)
368 on

Farkran

:

Seleynee

, emps,

skitter30

, teacher (Menalque gives intent in 399; Skitter leaves in 474)
540 on Menalque: NMSA, Teacher, Skitter, Farkran (Teacher leaves in 541)
768 on

Creeper

:

NMSA, Seleynee,

Menalque,

Skitter

(Menalque leaves in 790

I color coded the above based on current claims and which one I believe. Assuming Creeper flips red, I think Fark, Spam, Seleynee, and Skitter are all town-cleared.

That is helpful to reverse apply to the Fark wagon, which pretty much has to have a scum. I think it makes the lynch pool essentially (Menalque-sushi-me-emps), such that we only really have to remove one. I'll take the 75%ev with pleasure.

Actually, I know you all dont know Im town, but the 540 wagon also convicts Menalque IMO. Its all town and me -- so Im either the scum or menalque is. Game set match.

[teacher]

I find it a really odd play to get us both lynched to avoid Follow the Tracker when you don't even know there's a doctor but okay

VOTE: Farkran

Er... i don't think you understood how the setup works. Your game is pretty much over, so i believe i can share some helpful info for you now. If you say you are a

tracker

, the only way there can be a

doctor

would be Column B, row 3. This can only be true if in your mafia team there is a

Mafia Rolecop

, which you don't have. You have a

Mafia Roleblocker

instead,

the only setup that allows a tracker claim and masons in the same game

.

Of course town does not know that, but masons can be conf!town basically any time they want. Even in the remote assumption that town decides to lynch me, when they see my mason flip, they will be able to confirm that there can NOT be a doctor with a tracker in the game.

OK, there is clear setup confusion.

There are 9 different setups, not 3. Like a game can only be A1, A2, OR A3. Thus there is NO setup that allows a tracker to exist with masons. One of you must be scum.

[teacher]

Pagetop.

Also, Creeper, Mason is never a fake counterclaim because it requires a second.

Though, tbh, given the narrow game-solve pool, it may make sense to require the second to out now and confirm. But I will leave that for others, since Im that gamesolve and think I know the partner anyways.

[teacher]

I find it a really odd play to get us both lynched to avoid Follow the Tracker when you don't even know there's a doctor but okay

VOTE: Farkran

Er... i don't think you understood how the setup works. Your game is pretty much over, so i believe i can share some helpful info for you now. If you say you are a

tracker

, the only way there can be a

doctor

would be Column B, row 3. This can only be true if in your mafia team there is a

Mafia Rolecop

, which you don't have. You have a

Mafia Roleblocker

instead,

the only setup that allows a tracker claim and masons in the same game

.

Of course town does not know that, but masons can be conf!town basically any time they want. Even in the remote assumption that town decides to lynch me, when they see my mason flip, they will be able to confirm that there can NOT be a doctor with a tracker in the game.

OK, there is clear setup confusion.

There are 9 different setups, not 3. Like a game can only be A1, A2, OR A3. Thus there is NO setup that allows a tracker to exist with masons. One of you must be scum.

I meant that Column A is the only one that allows a tracker

claim

and

true

masons, therefore they have a roleblocker+goon. He should know that, so why mention a possible doctor? In this game it makes little difference, but in one with a larger solve pool it could have been relevant

You can always claim tracker -- in fact, it was the safeclaim in the old 2d3 setup. You can claim it (or any other role) whether or not they exist in the column. Though the first time someone claims 1-shot ascetic fruit vendor will likely be the last....

[teacher]

By that I mean that a fake claim has to be in the matrix, but not necessarily in the right column. Like youre assuming a RB, which may not be the case. In fact, at this point, I kinda expect goonies, but wouldnt bet any more than I do on a coinflip.

[teacher]

Here are my thoughts:

A mason fakeclaim is like a never in a million years thing, because it requires a second confirmation, which would out the scumteam in full upon flipping the original claimant. So it almost always makes sense to lynch the other PR claim first, and the masons should be able to confirm later if they played proper (and fark says they have).

That said, the gamesolve pool is narrow enough that I think locking another player as town makes sense, and it gets rid of the chance that Fark decided to YOLO counterclaim in column B so that we cant play follow the tracker. So in this specific game situation, unlike most, Im inclined to have the full out. But I would vote creeper either way RN, so dont feel strongly at all.

[teacher]

We

also crumbed way earlier in this thread, i will reveal my crumb if my partner agrees.

He says yes.

[teacher]

But a Tracker!Creep flip means the second never comes out if we wait.
And a second mason out on a scumlynch D1 basically doesnt change anything -- it just locks the N1 and N2 kill, and I think the pool is similiarly narrow for Fark's partner (Im down to two myself).

[teacher]

Nah mate, 1pr for scum is a good trade. 2 PRs for scum is not. (But creeper is scum; and the game is solved. At this point is just a process debate). I think in this game the mechanically right thing to do is have the mason out because of the narrow pools in each case, but I also dont think it matters.

@Menalque, if you wave the nk you could make it a perfect victory, just FYI.

[teacher]

It is safe mechanically to force the second mason to claim than to out the Dr/JK/Neighbor

[teacher]

Yea, that was my guess. No need.

VOTE: Creep
Hammer.

[teacher]

[teacher]

M

ight have finally found a game I'm motivated to play.

a

hs anyone got experience with the new setup yet?

s

elynee seems slightly scum, but not much.

o

h, and

farkran

is town I think.

n

ot sure tho.

[teacher]

YEa, but he backed off his on you claiming it was a reaction test. And that justified yours. When I decided that you had to either be scum or PR, I went back to look and actually saw a Mason crumb, but not from you.

[teacher]

I like the addition of masons, RC did a good job.

I've never played in a game with masons, will be interesting to see how it goes.

Also, hi, everyone!

I saw this as a claim to being a mason - it implies knowledge that they are present. @Emps, this was one of the reasons, I saw this as a crumb of being masons with Spam -- the quote.

[teacher]

@Emps - reasons I TRed Sushi. I even put a hyphen between spam and sushi in my readslist in 458 to let them know I had seen the cross crumbing (I caught NMSAs, but didnt put it as claiming w/ Fark til Fark claimed.

[teacher]

N

ow i look like a good girl from an anime i like.

A

lso hello to all the newly arrived.

M

y readings so far:

S

elynee - town 70% very proactive
Menalque - town 50% mafia 50% trollish
teacher - mafia 60% too serious to be town PR

notmyspam - town 70% plays like expert town

sushi - town 50% mafia 50% trollish
emps - town 65% aggressive play

O

ther two have yet to speak, 80% at least one mafia hiding in there

UNVOTE:

VOTE: teacher

[teacher]

@Emps - reasons I TRed Sushi. I even put a hyphen between spam and sushi in my readslist in 458 to let them know I had seen the cross crumbing (I caught NMSAs, but didnt put it as claiming w/ Fark til Fark claimed.

huh I didn't eeven notice

yea, I tried to make it subtle, but obvious, by making sure to include two other players on the same row but without a hyphen for you to know the hyphen was important.

@Emps - weak TL. Those posts were definitely her mind, but without a mason crumb from two sides its nowhere near as high.

[teacher]

Eh, it was the best I saw -- starting caps not necesarily in order. I think you did better than NMSA on hiding the crumb really well, but I can understand why. I look forward to you outing it after others try.

[teacher]

pretty much everyone except teacher (who turned out to be town, lol, sorry mate

no worries - so did you I did basically have you down to PR or scum at that point, and Im comfortable with how I played it too, because I thought I was bleeding town all over the place -- notice how you were the only one voting me -- so I just assumed scum with someone that knows me and wanted me gone.

Im happy I SRed Menalque until my SR of you interfered with that. 65 actually was the first to make me think that, in addition to the unjustified TR of you. It felt like a goad to put me on tilt a bit.

[teacher]

Proper Mason play is to convoluted crumb and provide the key.

I have come around to the opinion that it is a good idea to crumb generally, to trump scum counterclaims in a gamestate where that makes sense. Plus as PR I generally scum it up a bit.

PEdit: I think you played well, and also bled through a bit (enough that Skitter sided, and I was tight), but I also think you guaranteed your NK as scum would know you were indeed PR -- that was the logical conclusion of PR spec, too. I think better to use your systems, but also follow common practice a bit more.

[teacher]

[teacher]

When nexus comes online, he will lock, but we can chat until then.

[teacher]

Also, remember @Menalque - no kill is perfect game.

And no, its not an insta-townread (see Creeper's attempt). It has to be a logical play, with logical follow through. Hammer testing and what NMSA at least claimed to do makes sense.

[teacher]

Also, if youre a PR who is unfortunately also a universal townread, a lolhammer is a good way to avoid the nk.

[teacher]

yea, thats essentially the neighbor in this setup.

[teacher]

ou guys definitely do not play by associations, do you? Back in my days everyone and their dog would have put me and nmsa together as obvious partners.

Definitely not. COmmon approach here is VCA/NKA/Sheep dead town. We value progressions over associations because scum tend not to obviously associate. This game had stronger D1 associations than most Ive seen, and I've lynched scum D1 in like half my games (new queue skews the value of D1 far over normal).

[teacher]

And never lynched scum D1-D2, because some other player almost always had stronger associatives.

[teacher]

something else pops up.

Masonry?

[teacher]

Because its like midnight where you are and you had all day but didnt?

Nothing stopping you now friend.

[teacher]

@Sely, you want to make it an all-town wagon on Creeper? Ive never had a 7person wagon D1

[teacher]

same prob goes for skitt, but I can at least see her potentially deciding to bus once creeper seemed to be going down, and having enough confidence in her scum game to try and ride this out to the win

Skitts town. Scum!her doesnt whiteknight Fark who was obviously either PR or scum. She lets PR go down. Im just pissed that I was confident enough in my PR reads elsehwere that I went to scum, because her case was good.

[teacher]

Oh hi there menalque

sup

Try typing the skitter case than pointless responses. Or a concession is fine.

MY only hesitation on you is that I think you would have talked to creeper. I just cant decide if they would have listened, and the all-town wagon on you outweighs it anyway. I backed off you because I thought the scummy game open could be PR avoiding the NK, you got logical, and Fark 180ed. That PR theory is obviously out, which just leaves the scummy early game and then getting off scum wagon with intent.

[teacher]

VOTE: Menalque

Can I just leave this here and skip D2?

[teacher]

ss equity here than getting it in early that you're scum seeing as I'm so strongly set for a mislynch tomorrow

actually more, since without a case on skitter, the lynch pool objectively should be (you-sushi-//-whichever one of me and emps town chooses D4). So if you want her considered, you should type it.

[teacher]

Then GIVE US THE SKITTER NARRATIVE

[teacher]

@Emps -- I didnt forget about Sely, but she has more cred than you or I for being on Creeper. I dont think newb!scum busses that hard. I do see some associatives with the busywork question, but I think its outweighed by them putting themselves in a hard box clearing Menalque (a mislynch scum! sely needs) on a creep flip and being on wagon.

[teacher]

No, its better now because then you wont have had 48 hours to half-bake one.

[teacher]

you can catch up tomorrow, but the skitter narrative had to already exist and so it should be easy to out.

[teacher]

Blah blah blah Skitter?

[teacher]

You’ve had me as at least a TL all game. Flipping now is.....weird. Just because I lynched scum?

Like what about the play has been scummy?

I’m not about 1938. But think what you want.

[teacher]

Youre off in confbias land. I'll see you on the flip side. I look forward to whatever skitter narrative you come up with in the 48 hours.

[teacher]

which would bring you through to 3p lylo with I'm guessing emps + skitt and hope that you could sell one on the other

Dude, youre just flailing. 3 mislynches = scum victory. Thats why Ive been saying 75%ev the whole time.

D1end:7-1
D2end:5-1mislynch 1
D3end:3-1 misylnch 2
D4end:1-1 mislynch 3 scum win.

And I removed sel from the lynchpool over me. So keep trying.

[teacher]

119 on

Farkran

:

Seleynee,

Sushi Martyr, Emps, Menalque (Sushi unvotes after hammer test)
368 on

Farkran

:

Seleynee

, emps,

skitter30

, teacher (Menalque gives intent in 399; Skitter leaves in 474)
540 on Menalque: NMSA, Teacher, Skitter, Farkran (Teacher leaves in 541)
768 on

Creeper

:

NMSA, Seleynee,

Menalque,

Skitter

(Menalque leaves in 790

I color coded the above based on current claims and which one I believe. Assuming Creeper flips red, I think Fark, Spam, Seleynee, and Skitter are all town-cleared.

That is helpful to reverse apply to the Fark wagon, which pretty much has to have a scum. I think it makes the lynch pool essentially (Menalque-sushi-me-emps), such that we only really have to remove one. I'll take the 75%ev with pleasure.

Actually, I know you all dont know Im town, but the 540 wagon also convicts Menalque IMO. Its all town and me -- so Im either the scum or menalque is. Game set match.

You have 20+ posts and hundreds of words since you came on. Youve had plenty of opportunity to post about skit. But cant come up with crap.

I agree I should go after you. That is the implication of this analysis. And if we're both town, then they can figure it out.

As an SE charged with educating, I would never instruct a tracker claim when I had seen the mason crumb. And I think 458's hyphen made pretty clear I caught at least part of the crumbs.

[teacher]

IF we are both town, emps will know to lynch skitter based on 540. Your wagon would not be all town.

[teacher]

@Creeper, youre hammered but feel free to talk.

@Menalque, town should be trying to get all information it can. It helps town to manipulate their readslists to protect PRs/avoid NKs (why emps was above them in the same post)

[teacher]

Skitter narrative. Youre right that youre dead tomorrow, but outing it now makes it credible. You can elaborate tomorrow, but out it.

[teacher]

I wont even fight that mislynch if you are town. A convincing skitter narrative is about the only thing that will get me to fight against your lynch tomorrow, but it needs to be today. Why the fuck do you think I keep asking you.

[teacher]

Youre here. Youve made 25+ posts. Make the skitter one.

[teacher]

I dont think Menalque is the solve tho. I think he would have discussed safeclaims - his last scum game involved a counterclaim-off. I also think he coaches in the scum-PT more -> to be active and how to respond. I mean it is certainly possible and would be fine lynching him, but want to raise that.

I need to reevaluate the other newbs.

@Menalque, in case it wasnt clear, its time to talk about your skitter evolution.

768 on Creeper: NMSA, Seleynee, Menalque, Skitter (Menalque leaves in 790

This almost certainly contains a scum.

@Menalque, I really need that skitter evolution verbalization.

Didn’t see this page. Fair enough on the wagons. I did overlook emps intent.

I do think skit/Menalque has a scum. I do want Menalque to come back in today and give words.

And how does believing it affect your read on Fark?m

Don’t forget the skit thing either.

You had plenty of time to provide the skitter thing all day. I kept asking for it.
You reacted to creepers claim, but didnt provide the skit case.
Provide it.

[teacher]

also my skitt narrative is clear from reading my ISO

ITs not. ITs why I asked for it yesterday and you said it was "fair". So why should it be obvious now?

[teacher]

I came up with a possible narrative. I want you to say what yours was, because that is literally the only way I can trust you. I have no idea what yours was, I just know what one could be.

[teacher]

also my skitt narrative is clear from reading my ISO

ITs not. ITs why I asked for it yesterday and you said it was "fair". So why should it be obvious now?

I’m gonna be online in like 30 and tipsy. Slots happened but leave me any questions you want as well.

Men’s, is like you to put the skit evolution into words,

because although I see it I want verbalizatiob.

Emps, same on mena- you earlier said way off scum meta so what changed?

doesn't sound like it was unclear

this alone should be enough proof that teacher is the second scum once I flip town

but then again town is playing p terribly bc I am obvtowning so hard right now and none of you are seeing it apparently

I came up with a possible narrative. I want you to say what yours was, because that is literally the only way I can trust you. I have no idea what yours was, I just know what one could be.

[teacher]

bc skitt is someone I would definitely expect to TR me this game and

Dude, you played scummy.

You townread Fark (knowntown) on posts that everyone else found scummy.
You flipped out NMSA (knowntown) for incredibly reachy reasons.

Only when you started to be a wagon did you town it up.

You saw Fark as potential PR and hinted that. Which should have made you flip back onto Fark after the Creeper claim, given that you claimed to believe Creeper, but instead you simply promised the skitter followup without a hint of switching back to Fark. (Also, you gave the initial push to believe creeper - coing online to do that, but not to post what you had said you would.

Like objectively, there isnt a good reason to townread you this game. Im looking for one. Thats why Im being a stick in the mud.

[teacher]

I never saw fark as possible PR or hinted at it

I've been more reticent on fark than I think I might have been and I think you know why

This is also why I was coming around on Menalque for playing the same possibility.

[teacher]

I increasingly only start to town it up when I get wagoned

Ive played with you twice. Once as scum (so of course you wouldnt play the same way, esp. since emps was there too), and once where you hardtowned all game, not just as a wagon target -- Newb 1934 - to the point where you were NK1

[teacher]

OK, but talk to me about why Im scum, if you wont talk about skitter - for reasons that pass understanding.

@Fark, that would go to you to, since your "greatest scumtell ever" theory about me and selynee hasnt aged well. Like youve scumread me all game but been the only one (til now), so why?

[teacher]

That was my first game, I’ve evolved a lot as a player since then

Youre talking about what I know. And Im showing that scummy!you who only towns it up when wagonned is outside my experience. Which is why I SRed you all game til Fark flipped onto you.

[teacher]

yea, but its all to do with literally the last four hours. IF thats enough to convince you, fair, but what would be my scum motivation for pushing creeper as the comp wagon when skitter was on you and I was on Fark? Like the Creeper inevitability I think came from Spam first, but me as the biggest pusher to find a compromise.

[teacher]

I have doubts. That’s why I’m trying to get the Skitter theory now. It’s literally the one thing you won’t do. You’ve made quite clear town should lynch me in 20 posts, but you haven’t given that one.

[teacher]

What you are doing now could be the swing for the fences ate or could be real. A Skitter theory would lend more credence to the latter. So?

Because town!you would recognize that the back rubs meant at least the possibility that you are wrong.

[teacher]

Don't know. To be honest, I've expected scum to try to use "the busywork question" here (which I've felt was misunderstood) as the more easy narrative to push.

Huh?

Skitters theory on why she would go selynee after a creeper scum flip.

[teacher]

The play that you called town three days ago.

Like if you were legit into Skitter, you’d recognize at least a 25% chance that your read of me AND her was right and you’d want to out that rather than leave it with Fark who would lose to skit in lylo by lynching sushi.

I’d also think town you recognizes I’ve been saying I’m open to defending you tomorrow if you can provide a narrative I can grok, but only under those circumstances, and would be trying to avoid a mislynch.

[teacher]

Dude when you’ve written 35 posts at least you could have done it, so don’t even try to put it on me that you didn’t. You’ve had 20+hours since I first asked.

[teacher]

And scum!me would want the answer to push skit as you’ve been saying. So scum!me rushes to end the day without it? Seriously man, your emotions are clouding your logical contradictions - I’m scummy for rushing the day to prevent talk, but I’m scummy for trying to talk?

And if you’re town, you’re right that town is playing bad. So enjoy that one postgame.

[teacher]

Yea, that was my guess. No need.

VOTE: Creep
Hammer.

Your narrative is so conf!biased it’s hilarious. This is 30 minutes after you had said you’d be back (which I missed in any event). The hammer didn’t fall for an hour. You’ve been online and talking for more than two. You had plenty of time.

Also, when you have caught confirmed scum, you get excited. Look at the posts around this time. That is happy playfulness and celebration. I appreciate the compliment that you think I can fake that emotional release, but....no.