Newbie 1955 - wikihow mafia [game over]

[Aisa]

Hi all, especially hi Claim!

I've had a read through things. I still need to think some things through, and take a good look at my notes, essentially I will be back in a few hours with better fleshed out ideas but I shall throw some preliminary thoughts out.

Leaning town on:

Mack

- His activity levels are good. In the first pages he game me the impression of reading every post carefully, almost "hanging onto" the thread waiting for someone to post. It just seems like it would be hard to imitate as scum on their first game. And it sounds like he's mostly just been saying what's on him mind. Yeah the vote on cyrus could be opportunistic but it doesn't seem like enough evidence to counteract the rest.

emps

- I agree with most of his posts. Especially around posts 152-159 his thoughts seemed to echo mine. Some of his more recent posts are nullish.

Null:
Dyrenz/

Sera Masumi

- just not much content yet.
eekveek/

Claim

- similar, not much content. I will say I just finished a game with Claim in which he was scum. He doesn't really post much in general, but compared to that game he seems bolder and more engaged which are good signs. Curious about this whole PT affair.

Leaning scum:

Rob

- I disagree with emps, his progression didn't seem especially town. I am going to look at a couple of his past games to see how they compare.

Doc

- reasons people have mentioned. Hasn't posted much but what he has posted could easily be opportunistic. Has not pushed anyone or made much of an effort D1.

Questions!

@MOD: can people get a pt if they PM you?

Anyone: is there a way to get a notes PT besides the mod making one for you?

@Rob: I get that tunnelling people is something you do as both town or scum. Why do you do it as town? It hasn't really served you well in this game.
@Doc: How did Mack's experience with Mafia inform your read? Why are you voting Mack now - weren't you reading him as "solidly town" yesterday? Could you generally be more forthcoming in sharing why you're doing what you're doing?

[Aisa]

You know what Rob, I've changed my mind.
[url=ttps://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=80202&f=50&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select%5B%5D=13986&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_sort=Go]This[/url]
is Rob's last scum game. I think there are some differences here, namely:
- in his scum game he was quite quick to accuse people. Not that he doesn't do it here, but he seems less quick to.
- seems to see more nuance here / genuinely worried.
- he's less defensive here. Although this one is not as reliable, because in the last game he was about to be lynched as far as I could tell.

But to answer your original question...

intent to hammer doc at 9pm my time btw my time saids 2:37pm

this is not a town post btw.

we have over 6 days left and doc isn't even in your scum pile.

somebody rushing to end the day doesn't say this.

so that's like lie number 4.

It's clear from the context he wasn't

lying

, he was just accusing you of being eager to end the day. Sometimes people forget or, in the haste, disregard earlier posts, it's nothing special...

yes I had a reason for voting him. I explained what that was later. i also provided more reasons as cyrus did more and more scummy things. Once he flat out lied about me, that pretty much sealed his fate in my opinion. he went on and lied 3 more times.

I can never town read somebody who lies. He will always be scum to me and as much as I try to stop death tunneling people because I know people hate it, I just can't when I am convinced, and I am convinced when it comes to cyrus.

In fact if you are scum this has to be telling. I can't be bothered to go back exactly but your insistence on these 4 lies is... excessive considering some aren't lies. Obviously I have hindsight, but cyrus' was a bluff indeed...

Here some posts I like:

post 335post 340

I am not scum this game. If you are town the only thing you know how to do is play against your win condition and lie, I have not refused to help the game, I AM THE ONLY ONE actually trying. Go look at my breakdown of the doc wagon, go look at the reasons behind those votes. If you are town, there is no way you can honestly say any of those are anything more than surface level reasons. Doc hasn't been around so he hasn't done anything truly scrummy. You can't say with any certainty that his inactivity is related to his alignment either. Meanwhile we have you who has done actual scummy things.

So if you are town, learn to play better and PLEASE stay the fuck away from me and i will try to do the same.

If you were truly trying to get people off the doc wagon, you would probably had better luck if A. you provided a better alternative with reasons and B. Looked at who was on the wagon and figure out that their reasons weren't very good.

Hmm.. that sounds familiar actually. Somebody actually did that. i wonder who that was...

Oh yea, that was me. And I don't even give a rats ass if doc gets lynched or not. He isn't really helping either but he doesn't look as bad as you do. You look like straight up scum. you act like straight up scum.

What is that expression? If it looks like shit, and smells like shit, it probably is shit? Look in the mirror sir, your play has been shit.

post 285

[Aisa]

You know what Rob, I've changed my mind.
[url=ttps://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=80202&f=50&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select%5B%5D=13986&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_sort=Go]This[/url] is Rob's last scum game. I think there are some differences here, namely:
- in his scum game he was quite quick to accuse people. Not that he doesn't do it here, but he seems less quick to.
- seems to see more nuance here / genuinely worried.
- he's less defensive here. Although this one is not as reliable, because in the last game he was about to be lynched as far as I could tell.

But to answer your original question...

intent to hammer doc at 9pm my time btw my time saids 2:37pm

this is not a town post btw.

we have over 6 days left and doc isn't even in your scum pile.

somebody rushing to end the day doesn't say this.

so that's like lie number 4.

It's clear from the context he wasn't

lying

, he was just accusing you of being eager to end the day. Sometimes people forget or, in the haste, disregard earlier posts, it's nothing special...

yes I had a reason for voting him. I explained what that was later. i also provided more reasons as cyrus did more and more scummy things. Once he flat out lied about me, that pretty much sealed his fate in my opinion. he went on and lied 3 more times.

I can never town read somebody who lies. He will always be scum to me and as much as I try to stop death tunneling people because I know people hate it, I just can't when I am convinced, and I am convinced when it comes to cyrus.

In fact if you are scum this has to be telling. I can't be bothered to go back exactly but your insistence on these 4 lies is... excessive considering some aren't lies. Obviously I have hindsight, but cyrus' was a bluff indeed...

Here some posts I like:

post 285
post 335
post 340

I am not scum this game. If you are town the only thing you know how to do is play against your win condition and lie, I have not refused to help the game, I AM THE ONLY ONE actually trying.

Go look at my breakdown of the doc wagon, go look at the reasons behind those votes. If you are town, there is no way you can honestly say any of those are anything more than surface level reasons.

Doc hasn't been around so he hasn't done anything truly scrummy. You can't say with any certainty that his inactivity is related to his alignment either. Meanwhile we have you who has done actual scummy things.

So if you are town, learn to play better and PLEASE stay the fuck away from me and i will try to do the same.

If you were truly trying to get people off the doc wagon, you would probably had better luck if A. you provided a better alternative with reasons and B. Looked at who was on the wagon and figure out that their reasons weren't very good.

Hmm.. that sounds familiar actually. Somebody actually did that. i wonder who that was...

Oh yea, that was me. And I don't even give a rats ass if doc gets lynched or not. He isn't really helping either but he doesn't look as bad as you do. You look like straight up scum. you act like straight up scum.

What is that expression? If it looks like shit, and smells like shit, it probably is shit? Look in the mirror sir, your play has been shit.

Fixed.

@rob, I agree they're surface level reasons... but by that logic can't most everything be construed as a surface level reason?

[Aisa]

Ooh juicy, I like this PT discussion. If Claim had >85 posts in their pt I'd be mildly surprised. But if he's quoting posts one by one in the pt then I suppose it's doable. Although it's weird that post #85 is quoting post #11 in the game. @Claim why is post 85 in your PT quoting post 11 in the game?

I am not buying Claim is scum, I get where you are coming from Robb......but I think in fact you have different reasons for calling this a scum play.

Come join me on the Mackenzie wagon and we will talk.

Ok, but can you explain why you're voting Mack, especially when you were town-reading him yesterday?

[Aisa]

@aisa I had a lot of short and conflicting thoughts.
@rob Farren in 1953 used a notes pt and made really good reads.

I wouldn't say it's dodging the question but I don't find it a very convincing answer; my faith in townClaim has diminished. Moving on, @Claim, who is scum?

VOTE: Doctor Drew - been lurking most of the game and dodging questions. I find Claim suspicious too but I don't quite want to put him to L-1 yet.

[Aisa]

That was L-2 by the way.

he was just accusing you of being eager to end the day.

false accusations aren't lies?

Sorry I forgot to reply. If they know it's false, I suppose it's a lie; if they don't know, then it's just... an accusation? Like if I though you were buddying someone, I might say "Rob why are you buddying player X?", I suppose it's a leading question but I don't think it implies I'm sure you are buddying someone.

Hehe sure i'm waiting for all the non posters to jump in and pick someone othere than me.

I don't think I understand what you mean.

[Aisa]

that... feels a lot like dodging the question there from aisa....

Ooh hang on you're talking about me dodging the question? Sorry and fair enough haha

[Aisa]

I realized because I was in the process of typing this:
-----------
Let's see...

You can have private notes,ive used them before

but mod can't confirm whether or not he has one because why would scum need a notes pt and a scum pt

answering my question

yes it is lmao why would scum need a notes pt when they have a scum pt

"modding" comment (something like information instead of analysis)

like for example, if skyg said "claimnow doesnt have a notes pt" hed be lynched in the next like 3 posts and if skyg said "claimnow has a notes pt" hed be town because why does scum need two pts

"modding"/mechanics comment

tempted to believe so as well. if he flips scum p much everyone thats inactive is cleared because i doubt sera, doc, or aisa slots have that active of a scum pt

so we just have to tr 1 person independetly of that and its ggs

fair enough I guess

VOTE: claimnow

easy vote, though also reasonable...

doc why dont you think claim is scum?

fair enough

that... feels a lot like dodging the question there from aisa....

on one hand demonstrates you're paying attention, on the other eh, it's bit of an easy comment anyway?

Like I don't know it feels a bit like emps is sailing through the day. Good thing I tr you from day 1 but from these posts alone I wouldn't be convinced.

[Aisa]

Just been checking what all the fuss is about with claimnows catch up posts, didn't realise when you click on the link it takes you to a restricted access section.

Can't see how this is legitimately a notes folder.

I still think Doc is scum but you can't ignore a scum slip

VOTE: claimnow

It's not a notes folder, Claim is saying that it is a notes PT. If it exists then it will be in a restricted section of the forum, just like a mafia PT would (correct me if I'm wrong).

Also ain't that

L-1

.

[Aisa]

Oops sorry, can't believe it has been awhile since I posted.

Need to skim the last couple pages.

This is essentially a prodge. When/if you come back, I will be expecting you to explain this as well as answer my earlier question.

Ooh juicy, I like this PT discussion. If Claim had >85 posts in their pt I'd be mildly surprised. But if he's quoting posts one by one in the pt then I suppose it's doable. Although it's weird that post #85 is quoting post #11 in the game. @Claim why is post 85 in your PT quoting post 11 in the game?

I am not buying Claim is scum, I get where you are coming from Robb......but I think in fact you have different reasons for calling this a scum play.

Come join me on the Mackenzie wagon and we will talk.

Ok, but can you explain why you're voting Mack, especially when you were town-reading him yesterday?

[Aisa]

@Dongempire are you fully caught up? What has your discussion with Rob told you?
@Rob what has your discussion with Dongempire told you?

A lot of it comes off as pointless playstyle discussion tbh. I mean, I'm all for discussing playstyle but there

is

a separate section of the forum devoted to just that...

[Aisa]

Kerset NK strikes me as interesting by the way. I was actually slightly scumreading them while catching up so it came as a surprise. IMO Mack came off as fairly townish & I am surprised by all the people screaming Mackscum. When you combine the two I get the feeling that he is scum's choice mislynch - otherwise the game might have gone down a different path, a path where Mack is obvtown & would have been a good target for the night.

[Aisa]

Rob what has your discussion with Dongempire told you?

That he doesn’t care about finding scum

If that is the case, though, you've fallen right into its trap.

[Aisa]

Alright i'll read up to last days lynch and make associations then. Still not going to make a case on anyone until im confident but more fruitfull posts coming

Lol

Rob what has your discussion with Dongempire told you?

That he doesn’t care about finding scum

If that is the case, though, you've fallen right into its trap.

How so?

By participating in the discussion so much.

[Aisa]

"jacking off into the sunset" lmao wut

claim, wanna explain ur mack scumread?

How sure are you that Claim is scum? Is that who you're intent on lynching today? Is that why you haven't been active?

[Aisa]

Right I took a look at Doc's other games. In this game they were town, and it's troubling how they were being vague about their read on a player, and inactive but promising to contribute more. Sigh. I was trying to make a case.

Now not keeping into account some instances of being inactive or vague, what still looks suspicious to me is

If Cyrus would stop tunneling me with bad logic we get somewhere here.

I still think seems town Cyrus to me, I am not gung ho about it though.

Mackenzie, how many games of mafia have you played?

Pre Edit: I consider him the ultimate stream of consciousness player.

defending cyrus

Mack is one of mine as well, let's go.

VOTE: Mackenzie

opportunistic vote

As usual vague answers. You want to void me because i dont underatand something? Maybe explain...

In due time.

Gotta not focus my attention on you and Cyrus so much and look at the other noobs(term of affection).

I will let you enjoy that vaguness for a bit.

uuh what?

RIP cyrus62, may your death not be in vain.

Anywho....

VOTE: Mackenzie

You know how people say that people say that whoever complains about the PR being killed is scum? This is just the VT version...

I don’t see any examples in any of claim’s other games that he has a notes PF. I don’t think he created one for here and I definitely don’t see content that matches 85 post made in his forum.

I can only think this is the only thing that makes sense to me.

Makes sense......but what is your opinion on Mackenzie?

Obviously an attempt to get people to vote Mack, but why? Does he just expect results without having to explain his read?

I am not buying Claim is scum, I get where you are coming from Robb......but I think in fact you have different reasons for calling this a scum play.

Come join me on the Mackenzie wagon and we will talk.

see above

[Aisa]

At this point indon't really have much to add, i think me and rob were good potential mislynch and kerset was giving us the best deductions.

Im still gutted as at one point i was with him on the Cyrus situation. Fact is i think his lynching was his own fault and he made it easy for scum to get by first night.

Probably time to move on from that...

VOTE: doctor

His last post was a prod dodge. He’s posted elsewhere on site this weekend.

After the dive into his previous games I'm not sure sure anymore lol. It is annoying that he has posted elsewhere, but I think I'd prefer Claim at this point.

[Aisa]

ClaimNow and Dongempire - why aren't you voting?

Aisa & Robbnva, I'll need to work out why you're voting me and jam a bit. I don't think we'll have enough time in 48 hours, but I also sincerely doubt that I am today's lynch. I am very capable of producing enough content to read me by in the next ~48 hours. Could I ask that you consider voting your other scumread to keep the gamestate moving while I catch up?

If you can produce enough content, that'd be great. I hear you're a good player though, so why should I trust you and how will I know how to read you?

Voting my other scumread now would mean voting claim, which is L-1, I fear someone will just hammer out of boredom then.

But I suppose I'm happy to

FOS ClaimNow

. He's acting fairly similar to the other game I played with him, in which he was scum. Namely, once he has had suspicion cast onto him he just lurks it out. I'm sure Rob's said it, but Claim, if you want to get yourself out of this sticky situation, now is the time to act. Give us some good action and I will change my mind. Please don't just give us your readslist again.

[Aisa]

I'll play devil's advocate: why emps might not be scum.

Two posts where he seems attentive to the gamestate, what players are around, etc.:

Spoiler:

how do we have 8/9 confirmations but we also have 2 players who havent even opened their role pms

huhh?

eekveek confirmed and didnt post?

VOTE: eekveek

Here he's saying almost the exact same things I was thinking while catching up. Like I agree that the rest of his posts are not that good but it just seems weird to me that scum would be so in tune with my pov:

Spoiler:

yknow why cyrus has always been right d1/d2

its because he scumreads every fucking body at one point or another

also mack is my strongest tr, rob is still null for me tho.

i feel like town!cyrus always does something like this where he keeps flipping his reads over, and over, and over again with no real progression. idk about his scum meta tho.

anyways i dont really like doc for that mack vote tho

no real reasoning behind it and i feel like he only said that he was sring mack because cyrus did, and i can see that coming from scum.

VOTE: doc

imo if his reasoning is "first game guy wouldnt be bold as town" i could just say "first game guy wouldnt be bold as scum"

like actually posting and voicing ur thoughts as someone playing their first game is +townpoints imo

also i feel like doc is trying to pocket cyrus

----
Oh! Oooh! I quoted the following post thinking that it demonstrated that he was paying attention to the game, since he was the first to call Claim out:

mind explaining the [/quotes] at the end, and the fact that post 85 is attributed to you, when post 85, isnt actually posted by, well, you?

But what if scumteam is claim+emps? It would explain why emps picked up on the [/quotes] tags that Claim left in posts 447-451; IIRC no-one else commented on them. I was initially thinking that all the questions Claim asked in posts 447+ meant Claim was less likely to be scum, I doubted he'd want to "pollute" the scum PT by posting so much in it. But he if is scum then it is likely that only 446 was in the scum PT, and the remaining posts are damage control. Worth noting that Claim probably noticed what he did in 446 immediately, given the 4-minute difference between posts 446 and 447 and the frantic posting after that. So he decided to leave the [/quotes] tags. That makes Claim more likely to be scum imo; no need to lie/try to cover it up if he's town. I could see town going "how am I gonna explain that now lmfao", while I think scum is more likely to panic and feel the need to act promptly to cover it up.

[Aisa]

UNVOTE: , see my post from a couple of days ago discussing Doc's meta. I don't feel like I can read the worst yet.
(@the worst: I heard about you mostly from browsing scummies, and seeing you won the one for rising star)

[Aisa]

I'd still rather lynch Claim today. I just think I've convinced myself that we're quite likely to hit scum with Claim. Others I'm not so sure on. My confidence in emps being town has decreased.

[Aisa]

Alright! I'll point out what in your case doesn't really convince me then.

[Aisa]

First is emps.

Most of it comes from the fact that he says something that might put pressure on someone, then never comes back to it. I'll illustrate:

Spoiler:

unless emps is scum and deflecting from mack or trying to pocket. btw until i am lynched i will share my thoughts and scum hunt

Maybe I am just reading between the lines too much but it's funny how you only consider your game ending if you're lynched. Does that mean you don't expect to be NK'd?

woah good catch

i dont think its a real scumslip tho because its cyrus

If its a good catch, it should be at least semi important to emps, but he just brushes it off and never comes back to this. Maybe this is a weak example, but there are more to come.

Yeah I don't think this is very telling.

Spoiler:

also i feel like doc is trying to pocket cyrus

Never comes back to this, or questions doc over this.

He was already voting Doc at the time.

Spoiler:

rob your scum this game and i know it and so will the others based on your reads . you refuse to help the game and hoping for mis lychees . my whole play with doc was me trying to get others
off the wagon.

as of now my last town reads are every one but rob is con town but doc and mack are scum.

"robs scum and doc is town"

"wait nvm switch it around

Clearly a massive hole in cyrus' logic, yet only uses it to pile further instead of actually doing the thing that would reveal his alignment, questioning him WHY.

Spoiler:

that... feels a lot like dodging the question there from aisa....

Same deal, never comes back to this or tries to pressure aisa into answering this. Feel like hes talking just to say hes been pressuring, yet he is simply taking very safe potshots at people.

He meant that Claim was dodging the question I asked him.

Theres a bit more of this, but i want to go over other tells that emps showed that further convince me hes scum.
One other tell is that he seems overly concerned about his image, especially when talking with cyrus. Apart from admiration, i also see that he fears he may catch his slip, and therefore is acting cautiously. Here you go:

Spoiler:

game is going very slow i i really am disappointed in emps .

oh im so sorry for having real life

bro what are you teaching the newbies

ive just been busy irl lol

Overly defensive response to a mild remark.

This reads null to me.

Spoiler:

why the hell does this happen every game

cyrus stop voting ur townread all the time

One way he could have gone about this is cut the second bit out. The "stop voting your townread" seems like its trying to guilt cyrus rather than accomplish anything.

Formatting is hard so i'll continue on the next post.

I agree that he doesn't seem very interested in scum-hunting. Would definitely like to see him respond to some of the stuff that has come up.

[Aisa]

Dongempire and the worst, what both of you are saying makes sense. I'll let it "simmer" for a bit and I'd like to see if emps responds. I'll keep an eye on the thread.

pedit: oh I see.

[Aisa]

I'm pretty interested in a d3 where there's a prospect of {emps, mack} + at least one of {dong, myself} alive.

Why?

[Aisa]

Myself - vt
emps - vt
Asia
Mack
Robb

I am a vt, I'd like to hear from Aisa next.

I thought you were sring Mack?

[Aisa]

Let's break this down.

	D3	N3	D4
Two doctor claims	Lynch the two doctors in two days, automatic town win.
One doctor claim	Doctor is confirmed.	Doc nightkilled?	Three non-confirmed players.
No massclaim today	No confirmed players.	Someone is nightkilled.	2 VTs vs. 1 claimed doc or 1 VT vs 2 claimed doctors.

You yourself (@the worst) say it's unlikely scum ccs a claimed doctor today. So we're essentially weighing the possibility of confirming someone today vs confirming someone tomorrow. It's not immediately obvious what the best option is, but I'd say probably tomorrow? There's a decent probability you're just fishing so as far as I'm concerned this is -townpoints for you.

[Aisa]

Ugh, fine. I'm the

Doctor

. I'll point out a crumb once I'm not on mobile in a couple hours.

[Aisa]

Hi all, especially hi Claim!

I've had a read through things. I still need to think some things through, and take a good look at my notes, essentially I will be back in a few hours with better fleshed out ideas but I shall throw some preliminary thoughts out.

Leaning town on:

M

ack

- His activity levels are good. In the first pages he game me the impression of reading every post carefully, almost "hanging onto" the thread waiting for someone to post. It just seems like it would be hard to imitate as scum on their first game. And it sounds like he's mostly just been saying what's on him mind. Yeah the vote on cyrus could be opportunistic but it doesn't seem like enough evidence to counteract the rest.

e

mps

- I agree with most of his posts. Especially around posts 152-159 his thoughts seemed to echo mine. Some of his more recent posts are nullish.

Null:

D

yrenz/

Sera Masumi

- just not much content yet.

eek

veek/

Claim

- similar, not much content. I will say I just finished a game with Claim in which he was scum. He doesn't really post much in general, but compared to that game he seems bolder and more engaged which are good signs. Curious about this whole PT affair.

Leaning scum:

Rob

- I disagree with emps, his progression didn't seem especially town. I am going to look at a couple of his past games to see how they compare.

Doc

- reasons people have mentioned. Hasn't posted much but what he has posted could easily be opportunistic. Has not pushed anyone or made much of an effort D1.

Questions!

@MOD: can people get a pt if they PM you?

Anyone: is there a way to get a notes PT besides the mod making one for you?

@Rob: I get that tunnelling people is something you do as both town or scum. Why do you do it as town? It hasn't really served you well in this game.
@Doc: How did Mack's experience with Mafia inform your read? Why are you voting Mack now - weren't you reading him as "solidly town" yesterday? Could you generally be more forthcoming in sharing why you're doing what you're doing?

"Medic"

[Aisa]

And here was I reassuring myself that no one would make fun of me

[Aisa]

Yeah fair enough @Rob!
@Mack surely.

Wait shit claim flipped rb I retract my doc claim

I'll explain why I fakeclaimed doc next post, on mobile rn

So your entire plan rested on a 50% chance that we weren't in the setup with the doctor? It might just be the rush of seeing someone other than me claim doc (even if temporarily) but I'm not sure I buy this.

I still think Mack is town. Tbf I haven't really thought about it lately. The last time I did put some effort into reading him, though, iI only went through 5 of his posts before being satisfied that he was town, soo...

[Aisa]

What I wanted to say is I agree with your reads. The strong townies vs. a vocal townie mislynch on d1 is consistent with a gamestate of town self-destructing. Scum who comes into the thread and sees town just lynching itself for them don't tend to play too hard. I sincerely agree scum were more likely to have coasted day one.

Agree.

pedit: me asking for Claim's claim was bait. If he claimed doctor I would have wrecked him, without the doctor counterclaiming. He hammered because he knew it was scum and nothing else was gonna happen d2 (except like, maybe you and me becoming more obvtown. but I'm not concerned about that)

How could you be so sure that Claim wasn't the doctor?

@Mack you're up next, claim.

[Aisa]

Crap. I had the doctor down to either Asia or Mack. I thought Mack's survivalistic/noncommittal style might have been him trying to keep a low profile to avoid the nightkill -- if he was the doctor we could've pretty safely dogpiled emps without hesitation.

emps hasn't played in a way which is geared towards ensuring his survival, so much as a way which is geared towards explicitly not solving the game, if that makes sense. Mack had made more effort to poke the gamestate: he's just doing it in a way which looks like he doesn't actually want to make waves. This behaviour at surface level looked to me like it came from a town power role.

Yeah, I did think you were hoping Mack was doctor. Oh well.

I do think emps is most likely at this point. It looks like scum coasting. Although it's strange how resigned he seems to be. He's got to know that he'll get lynched if the current momentum doesn't change, and he hardly seems to care. Not sure whether that'd be more likely to come from town or scum.

Lucky last:

@Asia one of the huge reasons I pushed for massclaim today is if Mack counterclaimed doctor tomorrow (and he was the last scum, obviously) it would be a fair bit harder to work out which of you was actually the doctor. :< you're townier by play but I don't have a strong read on who I'd trust to vote with or against you. There's one more reason which I'll explain before the curtain falls.

I see. I suppose that does make sense from your perspective. I think you can see why I tried to delay claiming or make Mack go first. Though maybe the claim order wouldn't have made much of a difference, with one power role remaining and everyone knowing what that role is.

otherwise like definitely any thoughts you have on the game fire them off here. Asia in particular, if you feel I'm pushing a scum wincon, talk about what you're seeing. also consider emps' alignment from the perspective that I am scum and he is town: if you can reach a deductive townread on him (by analysing his slot and independently thinking its town) I'd be really interested in seeing what you're seeing. ditto if you can reach a deductive townread on Mack.

Hmm. I don't feel you are pushing a scum wincon for the most part. The massclaim was probably the scummiest thing you did. I thought that if you were scum, it would be convenient for you to be the one pushing this narrative of "one of emps and mack is scum" and redirect the focus off yourself. Plus it would give you useful info for the nightkill.
For the most part, though, you seem town. It also helps that I think Doc was playing more like his town meta than his scum meta.

Yeah I think I can explain why Mack is town. I'll try to explain later. Sorry I can't do this now but I'm a slow writer and rl calls.

@asia who did your slot save each night?

Urghhhh.

I protected emps N1 because I was townreading him. I was townreading Mack even more, but some players weren't and I thought scum might want to have him around as a possible mislynch.

I protected the worst N2. I was torn between him and Dong and couldn't really make up my mind; eventually I settled for the worst because it would have been a pity for him to die so soon after subbing in.

Alright. I was going to play this a little fancier, but I don't think that'll really get me anywhere. The more I read, the more paranoid of you I'm getting. I'll go reread our first game together and some other stuff because I want to check your emotional range as scum. But I'm starting to think your late d1 is consistent with your scum m.o. and I'm worried I might have undervalued your scum skillset.

I'm glad you're saying that. A voice in the back of my mind was saying that I shouldn't discount Rob so easily. But like I went through the trouble of trying to read him once and didn't want to do it again. The apathy is real.

Plus I'm just comfortable reading emps as scum. When I go through the game assuming emps=scum and all other living players town, I just feel this sense of... cleanliness. Like I'm not being fed any misinformation, if it makes sense.

[Aisa]

Here we go. Why I think Mack is town:

- He posted a lot in D1. IMO this is town-indicative for a new player. I think a town-newbie could exhibit the kind of enthusiasm Mack has, wanting to see more posts and wanting to share his opinion on everything that's going on. He sounds like he is getting all his thoughts out, not like there is a PT somewhere with other Mackthoughts. I think enthusiastic newbie scum would be more likely to hold back on posting/plan their posts more attentively.
- He generally sounds lucid and aware of who is doing what, what looks towny, what looks scummy; scum sometimes has trouble telling.

Wall ahead:

Spoiler:

Mackenie rvs mode we cast random votes yes but why the 2nd vote on doctor percy why the 2nd vote on me . you two are pinging me but thanks.

I get the rvs, need to get the action underway. I acted hastily in my first post and my intention was to rvs someone without votes. I then noticed my error but figured it was way to soon to start changing votes. Also pointless unless peeps all start jumping on doctor.

This is slightly convoluted but it seems like an attempt to be transparent.

Cyrus: Scum Lean, based on gut as your interactions don't seem quite right.

Doctor: Town Lean, chat seems genuine not forced.

Not enough information on anyone else, need more contributions, also take these with a pinch of salt as I am the definition of a Mafia newb

I think a Doc town lean at this point of the game is a good lean to be having.

Just trying to get some convo outta u. Dont even know what shading is. I could put him to L-1 if we are fishing and i have a minor scum read but dont wanna risk early hammer. My read on u is now leaning town as i dont see that vote as something mafia would do.

Just seen ur other post, rvs on L-2 seems unlikey but what do know.

I don't know how to explain, but this seems town. Maybe it's the "if we are fishing", it just seems like scum would have to make extra effort to decide to put those words into the post. I see it as an example of the lucidity I was talking about I guess.

Unless i missed something i think Dyrenz voted for Rob @SKYGAZER

I think this is slightly more likely to come from town rather than scum. Adds to the body of evidence.

I know it makes me susceptable to day 1 lynch and nightkill by basically being the loudest so far, but lets atleast get some reasoning going.

I'm not sure I agree with him here but it sounds like he's just saying whatever is on his mind.

I was about to point out before seing Kerset's post that you make some good points Cyrus, me and Rob scum would be plausable. If that's the case though wouldn't you get rid of Rob the SE and leave me to flounder on my own, I get why you would go second on me after docs vote but surely Doc would intiate against Rob as the best one of us to get rid of strategically.

Also don't judge me too much based on your experiences with Rob

Again saying what's on his mind.

I won't be on today, at a funeral. Will try and contribute more tomorrow. Doctor is on my case because he knows he's my top scum read. Rob whether you play the same as town or scum is irrelevant to me, I don't see how the way you play can be at all helpful to town. You didn't like Cyrus before the game started and there was no way you were going to let up on him, how did that help us?

Would be easy to jump on claimnow and take the attention away from me but I haven't looked into his possible slip.

Would he decide to say this if he were scum with Claim? That would take a remarkable amount of self-control.

Also before I go

you never answered Doc my question from days ago, why you would target me over an SE when you thought we were a scum team. Now you think the scum team is me and Rob and you still want to rid the newbie scum, why?

He brings up his earlier post again. In the grand scheme of things this question is not that important. To me, it matters that remembered and decided to bring it up again. Maybe scum would think that it's too niche thing to bring up again? Although I suppose I could also see it as an attempt to redirect attention onto Rob.

[Aisa]

Good game everyone! I enjoyed it Thank you, Sky, for modding.

Yeah it's a pity Claim slipped in the way he did, very tricky situation to get out of. If it's any consolation, emps totally fooled me D1. Would have been interesting to see this play out without the slip.

I like feedback so if anyone has any, fire away.

[Aisa]

Thank you @tw, this is really long and in-depth, plus things that were just luck you're attributing to my skill

You replaced into a TPR slot who was at risk of falling into the PoE pool and potentially being lynched, just by virtue of your predecessor's posts and lack of activity. The best thing to do in this situation is to post enough to be townread, but without either: 1) underselling it, being overconfident in your entitlement to survive, or focusing too much on your survival (these are town power role perspective slips); or 2) kicking down doors and painting a target on your back. I think you did this pretty much perfectly, whether incidentally or by design.

I decided to broadly match the activity levels from the VT game I'd just finished, but I was otherwise fortunate that there were other loud enough players to bait the NK.

Some things I really liked about this post:
- your take on Mack was elegant and effective. One of the things that prompted me to heavily reevaluate my read on him was that other newer folks were just like "this dude is town". I kind of recognised that my initial read was equally attributable to newness and scumminess, and you should definitely feel that you played a big part in Mack being taken off the table as a lynch

That is the one thing I feel most proud of, so thanks.

emps continues to use townreading language around Cyrus' slot, despite having no stated stance on it and being comfortable with the lynch going through. this isn't immediately obvious from this post alone, but when sitting back and thinking about his ISO up to this point, I found his stance on Cyrus to be opportunistic.

after emps' vote on doc he also waits thru Cyrus posting then Mack posting once, until Mack posts a second time criticising emps' vote on doc. within 3 minutes, emps has reappeared to defend himself and his reasoning for the doc vote; this has signs of someone who is actively checking the thread, but not looking to actively engage others in solving discussions and advance the gamestate. I agree with Mack's take here that doc's posting was pretty transparently misguided, but I understand I was spoiled on Doc's alignment ; the most scum indicative part of emps case against doc is that he feels doc was trying to pocket Cyrus.

Interesting. Shall go back and read again. I did get a bit overwhelmed when catching up, so I stopped trying to keep track of who was suspecting whom D1.

I've talked at great length about this, so I'll keep the rest of my commentary brief (it's mostly just net positive): I got the feeling through the game that you really believed in your reads. the way you'd play devil's advocate when we were all dogpiling the scum!emps theory, the way you'd chime in to defend your Mack townread, etc.

Usually I don't. I've noticed that unless I have a particularly strong opinion, I tend to subconsciously sheep whatever the consensus seems to be. Hence me thinking emps was town D1, and coming around when enough people started saying he was scum. Playing devil's advocate was me trying to counteract this tendency/do my homework before blindly sheeping all of you.