Newbie 2001 | Game Over

[Gypyx]

VOTE: 72offsuite
Sorry but i just woke up, you're the first person i saw, therefore you're maf

[Gypyx]

Anyways for the tuxedo / fwogcarf interaction :

First of all, i really don't think it's two scums distanciating each other, because it looks like the don't want to do the same thing with the conversation, fwog just wants to talk about what tuxedo has asked him to talk about while tuxedo is trying to push the game in serious mode


And yeah, fwog is kind of contradictory with his apparent will of "getting into serious stage" but at the same time not doing much and kinda shitposting about what videos he's listening to

[Gypyx]

VOTE: Tuxedo mask

I think his vote was pretty bad and the follow up attempts at explaining it aren't great. Of all the things to pick out from fwogcarf so far, I don't see how inconsistency can be the issue to focus on. fwogcarf was pretty clear the whole way that he was spend his time cracking jokes even if he suspected there'd be people on the playerlist who weren't up for that.

I also don't think Tuxedo's framing of his vote as a reaction test quite fits when the read he got off fwogcarf's reaction is neutral. I'd say players in general ignore RVS votes they get more often than giving any kind of reaction, so if Tuxedo's reaction test wasn't prepared for that, its not a very useful reaction test. And also since he's still got the vote there, was it really a reaction test at all?

Could you explain how this is indicative of Tuxedo's alignement, all i see there is just that you show some fairly weak logic

[Gypyx]

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

[Gypyx]

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

[Gypyx]

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

Well of course yeah i don't expect someone to have super develloped reads by page 3, but the fact that he just put himself on the same level of towniness as micc / petri bothered me, and therefore i asked him more details

[Gypyx]

Also, what is a SEs?

[Gypyx]

(nvm figured it out)

[Gypyx]

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to

gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples

) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

Can you try to describe how these two things are different from each other and how you tell them apart?

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

In day 1 especially, but just generally the game revolves around that credible threat of hammering, or pressure. It starts with the town being incentivized to lynch on day 1. fwogcarf's post 85 is a good start to mathematically showing why that is the case. If you have any doubt as to why we are lynching someone today let me know and I can expand. Knowing that someone will be lynched means that these wagons can be built and pressure can be put on players for different things. Attempting to read how people react to these pressures is probably the fundamental concept of forum mafia.

At the end of the day, wagoning is good and necessary - just don't hammer people without giving them a reasonable chance to claim if they are PR.

well, the difference lies (in my opinion) in the speed of a accusation, i feel like scum wants to make some quick accusation / assumption while even if gamesolving relies on accusations too, it's usually more cautious than what you did

but in post #93 you provided a good reason for that agressivity of yours, so i guess that point no longer stands

[Gypyx]

2. 72 wasn't defending me in that post, more he was actually focusing on the post content that was provided there. Gyp had stated that "fwog/petri/micc are on the same level of townreads as you?" Now whether or not he forgot that I posted that remains to be seen, but I do agree with his logic there.

well tbf, even if he isn't directly defending you, 72's post made the focus shift on another person, so the end result is the same as if he defended you

[Gypyx]

well, the difference lies (in my opinion) in the speed of a accusation, i feel like scum wants to make some quick accusation / assumption while even if gamesolving relies on accusations too, it's usually more cautious than what you did

but in post #93 you provided a good reason for that agressivity of yours, so i guess that point no longer stands

Which way would you classify your previously stated suspicion of me based on this criteria?

well, i already explained, your accusation was quick and not based on very much material and the accusation martial itself wasn't really convincing, therefore i found that quite suspicious, but as I said, I no longer find that suspicious

[Gypyx]

When it comes to the 72/fwogcarf thing, I'd like to know what people are getting at in the 'defending' argument.

Is it suspicious for 72 to 'defend' a player on his own? Or do you think 72's defense is suspicious because you think fwogcarf is suspicious?

well, even if defending a player without any good reason to defend him is alrady kinda suspicious, i think that in the case of 72o, it adds up with the fact that Fowg himself is kinda suspicious, and that 72 hasn't raised any good / bad point about fwog yet

[Gypyx]

I don't like his entrance, completely ignoring the interaction (44, 45). He proceeds to provide non-content (53). I like the stance taken in 80, but I find it hard not to apply his logic to himself as well. In other words, I think that he is giving off the same vibe that he's scumreading Gypyx for. Now this might sound weird, so feel free to ask me to clarify if I don't make sense, but it's because I think 72o's read is weak and misguided that I find reason to believe 72o is town for making the read. Scum tend to be more deliberate and careful in their play. This post reads to me as someone who genuinely believes that posting things just to post them is scum-indicative, yet doesn't realize that up to this point he's done the same thing. That sort of carelessness reads as town in my experience.

and how would the fact that 72 kinda "defended" Fwog fit in that view that 72 is playing carelessely? (welcome btw)

[Gypyx]

well I get what you're saying, but you went up to voting tuxedo, while I was just making a point about the way you behaved, I don't think you can really compare those 2

[Gypyx]

well, the way i originally pointed out that fact was by metionning it to fwog hen he said that he was townreading you (without saying any other details)

and secondly, i also initiated some interaction with you in post #72, so idk how I am not "asking you to explain what you were doing"

[Gypyx]

well, the way i originally pointed out that fact was by metionning it to fwog hen he said that he was townreading you (without saying any other details)

and secondly, i also initiated some interaction with you in post #72, so idk how I am not "asking you to explain what you were doing"

yeah ok that's fair. What's your strongest read in any direction?

I previously would've said that 72 was scumleaning from my opinion, but after what happened now, i'd say i'm townreading tuxedo pretty hard rn

[Gypyx]

I don't like his entrance, completely ignoring the interaction (44, 45). He proceeds to provide non-content (53). I like the stance taken in 80, but I find it hard not to apply his logic to himself as well. In other words, I think that he is giving off the same vibe that he's scumreading Gypyx for. Now this might sound weird, so feel free to ask me to clarify if I don't make sense, but it's because I think 72o's read is weak and misguided that I find reason to believe 72o is town for making the read. Scum tend to be more deliberate and careful in their play. This post reads to me as someone who genuinely believes that posting things just to post them is scum-indicative, yet doesn't realize that up to this point he's done the same thing. That sort of carelessness reads as town in my experience.

and how would the fact that 72 kinda "defended" Fwog fit in that view that 72 is playing carelessely? (welcome btw)

If you are trying to say that 72o is deliberately pivoting the focus from fwog to you, and that means his play isn't careless, I'm not seeing it. His reasoning for suspecting you equally applies to himself. That's careless play. We can talk all day about whether he was trying to distract town from fwog, but I think that's a highly associative read and those reads work better after we have flips. Prior to knowing either his or fwog's alignment, you're just speculating and stirring up suspicion.

well yeah, associative reads work better with flips, but i personally think that not having flips shouldn't be a reason to not make associative reads

and also, from 72's last messages, i'm not really seeing the "carelessness" you're describing, so, i don't think that the read you have on him really applies

[Gypyx]

In post 114, fwogcarf wrote:
we are pogging


what's your take on JV not being here since you have meta with him? He's solidly in my lynch pool right now.

could you explain the benefits of lynching someone inactive rather that someone who has generated interactions and stuff?

[Gypyx]

In post 114, fwogcarf wrote:
we are pogging


what's your take on JV not being here since you have meta with him? He's solidly in my lynch pool right now.

could you explain the benefits of lynching someone inactive rather that someone who has generated interactions and stuff?

While he does that, could you explain the benefits of lynching someone active rather than someone inactive?

well, it's just a better thing to do, generally, you can't get alignement reads on someone who isn't talking, so lynching someone inactive is pretty much random (of course, that is if his inactivity is due for irl reasaon) and as I said, an active player interacts with the other ones, therefore, him flipping will give us more information based on his interactions, while lynching someone who hasn't talked much isn't really helpful unless he's scum

[Gypyx]

Fair. At what point do you feel that it is justified to pressure inactives simply to prevent mafia from lurking?

well, i'd say that once we're halfway through D1 huge lack of activity without asking from replacement / providing good reasons for that lack of activity is a red flag

[Gypyx]

I don't like his entrance, completely ignoring the interaction (44, 45). He proceeds to provide non-content (53). I like the stance taken in 80, but I find it hard not to apply his logic to himself as well. In other words, I think that he is giving off the same vibe that he's scumreading Gypyx for. Now this might sound weird, so feel free to ask me to clarify if I don't make sense, but it's because I think 72o's read is weak and misguided that I find reason to believe 72o is town for making the read. Scum tend to be more deliberate and careful in their play. This post reads to me as someone who genuinely believes that posting things just to post them is scum-indicative, yet doesn't realize that up to this point he's done the same thing. That sort of carelessness reads as town in my experience.

and how would the fact that 72 kinda "defended" Fwog fit in that view that 72 is playing carelessely? (welcome btw)

If you are trying to say that 72o is deliberately pivoting the focus from fwog to you, and that means his play isn't careless, I'm not seeing it. His reasoning for suspecting you equally applies to himself. That's careless play. We can talk all day about whether he was trying to distract town from fwog, but I think that's a highly associative read and those reads work better after we have flips. Prior to knowing either his or fwog's alignment, you're just speculating and stirring up suspicion.

well yeah, associative reads work better with flips, but i personally think that not having flips shouldn't be a reason to not make associative reads

and also, from 72's last messages, i'm not really seeing the "carelessness" you're describing, so, i don't think that the read you have on him really applies

I don't think Luciano meant 72's last messages, so you can't use his recent posts as evidence to answer that question.

yes, i'm aware of that, but I pointed out how 72's playstyle evolved, and that it contradicts his read that :
"72 is careless, therefore he's towny"

[Gypyx]

Why is gyp on your 'probably not lynching today list'?

He did a good job explaining what he was thinking when I was pressuring him about his early posting. Felt he had genuine reasons for the things he'd done and wasn't making anything up. Not a strong read, but one that I'm confident has room to evolve over the course of the game, which is a big thing I'm looking for in Day 1.

In post 114, fwogcarf wrote:
we are pogging


what's your take on JV not being here since you have meta with him? He's solidly in my lynch pool right now.

could you explain the benefits of lynching someone inactive rather that someone who has generated interactions and stuff?

Someone who is inactive is likely to continue to be inactive, and someone who has generated interactions and stuff is likely to continue to do that. The first group is people you don't want to be in lylo and the second group are the best people to have in lylo. This theory opinion is something I've reversed course on over my time playing mafia, but currently I have no problem compromising to lynch people who aren't pulling their weight in early day phases. I often think of mafia as a game where each team is trying to set up a final 3 where they have the best chance to win, and cutting dead weight early is a big part of being successful in that as town.

I see, so it's more of a long term play thingy, it looks quite hazardous, but I understeand the reasoning behind that

[Gypyx]

I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. I said that 72o made a

specific

careless play in making a scum read against you that is equally applicable to himself. I'm not saying that for him to be town he has to spend the entire game being careless.

well, I think that just a single occurance isn't enough to be a consistent towncall, so i'd like to see if that repeats in the future

Gypyx, can I get you to table 72o for a moment and offer your reads on Petri?

and i don't really understeand this sentance, could you explain "table" pls?

[Gypyx]

well, i'm kind of strugguling to gather my thoughts on Petri right now, but i'll try

[Gypyx]

I don't like his entrance, completely ignoring the interaction (44, 45). He proceeds to provide non-content (53). I like the stance taken in 80, but I find it hard not to apply his logic to himself as well. In other words, I think that he is giving off the same vibe that he's scumreading Gypyx for. Now this might sound weird, so feel free to ask me to clarify if I don't make sense, but it's because I think 72o's read is weak and misguided that I find reason to believe 72o is town for making the read. Scum tend to be more deliberate and careful in their play. This post reads to me as someone who genuinely believes that posting things just to post them is scum-indicative, yet doesn't realize that up to this point he's done the same thing. That sort of carelessness reads as town in my experience.

and how would the fact that 72 kinda "defended" Fwog fit in that view that 72 is playing carelessely? (welcome btw)

If you are trying to say that 72o is deliberately pivoting the focus from fwog to you, and that means his play isn't careless, I'm not seeing it. His reasoning for suspecting you equally applies to himself. That's careless play. We can talk all day about whether he was trying to distract town from fwog, but I think that's a highly associative read and those reads work better after we have flips. Prior to knowing either his or fwog's alignment, you're just speculating and stirring up suspicion.

well yeah, associative reads work better with flips, but i personally think that not having flips shouldn't be a reason to not make associative reads

and also, from 72's last messages, i'm not really seeing the "carelessness" you're describing, so, i don't think that the read you have on him really applies

I don't think Luciano meant 72's last messages, so you can't use his recent posts as evidence to answer that question.

yes, i'm aware of that, but I pointed out how 72's playstyle evolved, and that it contradicts his read that :
"72 is careless, therefore he's towny"

So given that he's got new content, what would be your final read on him.

well, my read still isn't fixed, but while he talked more, this content doesn't strike me as towny, and i find that there isn't that much content actually coming from him once everything is sorted out

[Gypyx]

Fair. At what point do you feel that it is justified to pressure inactives simply to prevent mafia from lurking?

well, i'd say that once we're halfway through D1 huge lack of activity without asking from replacement / providing good reasons for that lack of activity is a red flag

So what is your take on a slot that was inactive, stated a reason for inactivity, then asked to replace out.

Scumlean? Townlean?

I find that to be NAI, real life problems don't care about your alignement

[Gypyx]

(gonna read through petri's ISO now, brb)

[Gypyx]

My general thoughts on Petri is that he focuses way too hard on being friendly with others / his reads and way of playing don't make me feel like he wants to find scum

Tuxedo, in my book, ask as many questions as you feel pertinent. I'm not aware of conventions here but trying to lead the conversation is a pretty sweet gig if you're scum unless there's precedence from someone's playstyle.
Regarding quarantine, i hope we all stay safe and sane.

2. 72 wasn't defending me in that post, more he was actually focusing on the post content that was provided there. Gyp had stated that "fwog/petri/micc are on the same level of townreads as you?" Now whether or not he forgot that I posted that remains to be seen, but I do agree with his logic there.

well tbf, even if he isn't directly defending you, 72's post made the focus shift on another person, so the end result is the same as if he defended you

Couldn't have said it better myself.

- So there, petri quotes a whole message just to say that he agrees with me, of course I know that his playstyle is naturally firendly, but I find it to be kinda over the board

Hi Luciano, a pleasure. So let's address these one at a time:

1 - Post 54 - I think town has a decent chance being as there seems to be a genuine passion for investigation that I rarely see day one in Meat Space. I have come to this conclusion from the challenges such as Micc's post 30 and 37 (Apologies for not hyperlinking these, can someone throw me the coding?) and also Tuxedo's post 81. Just a couple of examples.

2 - Fwog has been forthcoming with content but only since post 85. Prior to that I'm not a fan of the tone of most if not all of their posts as it portends to helping town. As such my initial read was scum defending scum. It was waylaid a little by their response to my vote but post 97 seems to be an interesting way to instigate discussion. 72 hasn't given much other content and has not responded to my query and as such it's harder to pin him down. It's difficult to know if that is by design or through external factors.

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded, but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices, so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

If there's anything else you would like to press me on, go ahead,

- openly stating that he doesn't want to vote on 72 for reasons that I don't really get (i don't know the term "kowtowing") but it feels to me that he's just hoping that someone else will get the wagon rolling for him, in order to avoid suspicion

Petri, can you respond to this, you seem to have missed it earlier.

Further, I don't see how we get from

In post 82, Petrichorus wrote:
Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour

to

In post 92, Petrichorus wrote:
VOTE: Fwogcarf

to

In post 111, Petrichorus wrote:
I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades.

How does one, as town and in good faith, conclude that wagoning to generate content is pro-scum, and then proceed to use a wagon to generate content?

My post was conjecture and I thought that posts 83 and 85 were compelling arguments. The answer to your question is that I changed my conclusion. I'll address the other points in the morning on my PC. Till then I bid you all a fine night/day in Meat Space.

- so there, Petri states that his opinion changed, but it feels like there wasn't much needed to make him change his mind, as if he wanted to avoid getting unwanted attention for his opinions on the game

in conclusion, i'd like to see what gets out of Petri if there's more pressure on him
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Petrichorus

[Gypyx]

(Sorry about the inactivity, i'll try to catch up but it might take a few hours before i'm able to post)

[Gypyx]

@Gyp: If $1,000,000 bucks was on the line, up for the taking, and all you had to was to choose a solve right here and now, who would you say are the 2 scum?

I'd probably say something like Petri / Bv even though i'm not super confident on this solve

[Gypyx]

well, i'm kind of strugguling to gather my thoughts on Petri right now, but i'll try

Disappearing here is sus.

I just wanted to be able to sit down calmly while reading through petri, how is that sus

[Gypyx]

@Gyp: If $1,000,000 bucks was on the line, up for the taking, and all you had to was to choose a solve right here and now, who would you say are the 2 scum?

what the flip floppity fuck kinda question is this

Tbh i feel the same way about your question, what is the point in what you said about 72's question?

[Gypyx]

Hey guys, skimmed through the threads and make some notes.

Town:
Tuxedo seems town to me.[The part where he talks about quarantine being the reason why he tries to skim the thread very often to try to inspect people]
Fwog can be town for now as i grouped some of his interactions with tuxedo,gypsy and 72 as not scumxscum interaction.

Scummy:
BV,Petri

Abit Scummy:
72

Rest not much read.

Could you explain in more detail your scumReads?

[Gypyx]

3. I am still deciding whether I want to put Gypyx or Micc here.

Could you explain how you reached that conclusion that either micc / me should be the 3rd lynch? I don't see you talking about that part

[Gypyx]

Gypyx - Early on in my writing of this post he was a light green. There's effort to contribute new ideas and understand other players early on in his play, (47, 72, 88, 124, 164). I also like that he doesn't acquiesce when pressured and defends his views, (88, 99, 123, 125, 127, 130, 163, 168, 173, 177, 180). This was weighed against his case against Petri (202) which felt like non-content when compared to his previous posts as well as his general decline in activity as the day progressed. I think overall things weighed in his favor. My problem, however, comes with his recent posts. 283 introduces BV to his solve which feels like he's just sheeping the flavor of the month wagon

i'm not, the reason for metionning bv in my solve is that, while petri and 72 are my 2 highest scumreads right now, i don't really see them being scum together, therefore i'd see the second scum between the less active peoples, and out of all of them, bv is the one I susp the most

, which when paired with his reasoning for voting Petri

you don't explain that part, where is the problem with me voting petri?

is a bad look. I also feel that when called to contribute 282, instead of offering new thoughts like he did earlier, he repeated my question towards enomis

well, sorry about that but I posted my messages as I was reading through what i've missed, so when I posted my question, i wasn't aware yet that you had already posted something similar

(286). In other words, he came back and made 6 posts, and I don't like any of them. He has a lot going for him earlier in the game, but there's been a drastic falling-off in reasons to believe he's town somewhere after 180, and an uptick in reasons to believe he's scum.

[Gypyx]

1a : Petri has been accusing 72, and it even was one of the few times where he didn't seems that friendly while talking to someone else, but also, he has always done it mixed up with the rest of his argument so if it was scum deliberately distancing each other, i'm pretty sure Petri would have made his accusations more obvious
and 72's reaction on those accusation doesn't really match for me the reaction of a scum wanting to distanciate himself from his scumbuddy, like, he barely even acknowledges Petri's accusation (post 154) is the only time where 72 really goes in conflict with petri
so therefore i find the way Petri and 72 interacted quite illogical if they were scum

1b : before post 194 only post 87 had sorta meaningful content, and it is quite unimportant content
then he doesn't post anything for about 100 posts, and when he gets back he doesn't apologize or mention the fact that he's been offline for long, it kinda feels like scum lurking to me
after that in post 194 he first mentions his scum read on petri, which we never learnt about before, and assuming that petri and him are maf, it would be a very logical thing to do
(and wow, just realized now that all of that has been said already)
and also, he says he got susp of petri in 111 but if that's the case, why wouldn't he confront him about that

2: i explained my reasons in post 202 i personally think those are enough to vote him (and I add the fact that those were only specific points, taken from his posts that i don't like overall) plus my vote previously parked on 72, not doing anything, so I thought it might be better if i made it more active

3: i

[Gypyx]

fuck

[Gypyx]

3: i agree that this is a pretty big coincidence but, that point seemed very natural to me, i just posted that as I thought about it and then, I don't see how me making the same point as someone else is a scumtell

then for who's town i'd say something like

Gypyx

self listing ftw

tuxedo

his content strikes me as really towny, it really feels like there's a line of thoughts behind his posts, and overall, i don't find much to question about his posts

Lucky

I feel that you had opportunities for good scum plays, but you deliberatly chose not to take those, even when you totally could have got away with it

fwog

while he sometimes makes weird posts, he seems relaxed and his posts are quite disorganized, i don't think he's following an agenda if you see what i mean

[Gypyx]

@Gypyx,

On Petri, if you believe that Petri's friendliness towards players in the game is a deliberate attempt to get on their good side, shouldn't his lack of friendliness towards 72o indicate that he doesn't care about getting on 72o's good side? Why is that?

On BV, now that you have worked through your BV read more clearly, do you still believe that 72o and Petri are the most likely scum, or does BV now take that spot? You also seem to value associative reads, so while I don't like them very much D1, and given that your take for scum seems to be {bv, 72o or Petri}, who between 72o and Petri is more likely to be bv's partner? Feel free to tell me if I'm misunderstanding you and your approach to the game here.

tbh that a very intersting way to put things about petri, i don't think that's enough to dismiss the theory about Petri # 72, as there are other points such as 72's lack of reaction to Petri, but it's worth keeping in mind

BV still isn't in the most likely scums, but his position is very unstable right now, i'm waiting to see what he posts next to really assert my opinion, and then, I think that petri is the most likely partner for BV, as he immediatly took off his vote on petri upon getting back in the game / maybe realizing that he was close to being lynched, and that he said he stopped suspecting Petri, without really taking any time to explain why

and no, i think you summarized pretty well how i try to play the game, i like to try to make associative reads to see if a scumteam seems realistic or not

[Gypyx]

It's not that making the same point as someone is a scumtell. It's that your questioning of enomis (if I have to look up how your name is spelled one more time you are going to be called Emo for the rest of the game), doesn't feel organic, at least not compared to your earlier posts. It's more of a ping than a tell. It's the sheer number of pings that came all at the same time that has me worried.

Can you explain where you feel I had opportunities for good scum plays? I don't remember you really talking about your reads on me much earlier. What's the context behind this one.

Well, it's my way to get back into the game, it might be a bit artificial, but that's just a side effect

for instance, taking off your vote on petri, assuming that you're scum and Petri isn't your scumbuddy (which would be quite weird, considering what you did in post 179) you had the opportunity to just keep your vote on him, and surely, this would've been pretty likely to cause an unintentional hammer, while not making you that suspcious, but you chose to take it off, which i find to be quite illogical to do as maf (like, even a scum wanting to make himself look better could've just pointed out "hey watch out, petri is actually at L-1)

[Gypyx]

I'm torn between liking your responses, and wondering why it feels like you are intentionally copying me,

Spoiler:

@enomis, I'm going to need you to expand upon your reads list in 253. Why are Petri and 72 scummy to you?

Hey guys, skimmed through the threads and make some notes.

Town:
Tuxedo seems town to me.[The part where he talks about quarantine being the reason why he tries to skim the thread very often to try to inspect people]
Fwog can be town for now as i grouped some of his interactions with tuxedo,gypsy and 72 as not scumxscum interaction.

Scummy:
BV,Petri

Abit Scummy:
72

Rest not much read.

Could you explain in more detail your scumReads?

The same question to the same player after I ask you for more content.

---

Spoiler:

LuckyLuciano

- For the meme value of self-reading.

Gypyx

self listing ftw

The same joke.

---

Spoiler:

LuckyLuciano

fwogcarf

Tuxedo Mask

tuxedo

Lucky

fwog

The same color pattern, and the same town reads.

I explained why I sent the same message asking for detail, I would've asked that regardless of what you did as i didn't read your message while posting mine

I might have been influenced by you making a joke about self listing earlier yeah, or is it the fact that I self list on it's own that you don't like? in which case I think that it doesn't really matter

well, green is kind of the default color for town reads, and why is it that you like when micc reaches the same conclusions as you, but you don't really like when i get similar conclusions to you?

[Gypyx]

Well, it's my way to get back into the game, it might be a bit artificial, but that's just a side effect

What do you mean when you call your own play artificial?

well, you called it artificial, and I don't really care if it looks artificial or not, as I don't try to push it in any direction on that spectrum, so the point of my message was more to say that these posts could totally feel artificial, but that it's doesn't matter

[Gypyx]

BV, if you're town, persuaded that the lynch will end up on you and resigned to that hapenning (which i find quite weird, but i can understeand) why aren't you providing any content, that we will be sure is coming from town once you flip?

[Gypyx]

Gypyx, formatting your response like this makes it a nightmare to follow. Especially because that color is near invisible on MafSilver skin. Any chance you could just stick to quote + response below?

Would it be better if i spaced out my text and used a different color, like

this one?

[Gypyx]

Well, bv is in my lynch triangle for this day, even though i would prefere to lynch between {petri / 72} as BV has barely generated any content

I don't really like Petri's vote on him right now, the reasons he told are okay, but the fact that he said nothing about BV earlier, and the timing at which this vote was done kinda bothers me

[Gypyx]

I know that a 72 wagon isn't really realistic, but i'd rather mention it

1) Already explained, my point was that even though 72 and petri are my 2 biggest suspcets, i don't see them being scum together, and as no one is really defending them, i guessed that the second scum must be between the less active players, and between all of them, BV is the most susp one

2) well in my case against petri, i tried to avoid making points that other peoples made already, so yeah it's quite short, but yeah, you got my main reasons for thinking that he is scum and also the fact that he had done nothing that makes me think he's towny is kind of a red flag in my opinion

[Gypyx]

Not a kill I suspected. Is it to cast FoS on Lucky?

Who were you suspecting to die then?

[Gypyx]

Well, there might be something more than just putting FoS susp on Lucky (btw what does that exactly mean?) as if this really was scum's plan, they probably would've killed you i think

[Gypyx]

Well, there might be something more than just putting FoS susp on Lucky (btw what does that exactly mean?) as if this really was scum's plan, they probably would've killed you i think

Finger of Suspicion

But people didn't town read, or follow Fwog. While people did for me. So they could hope I'd carry the momentum from the day ended, and really push Lucky, with the added evidence of that flip.

Basically I'm more likely to convince people than Fwog was.

That's a fair point, but is there any reason why you aren't considering the possibility that Lucky killed Fwog? (unless i misunderstood your point)

[Gypyx]

True, but let's not exclude any possibilities

[Gypyx]

I'm going to reread the game more in depth before I start heavily engaging in this day phase. Just going off how I felt about players late yesterday, the next logical step is either Petri or Gypyx. Gypyx seemed to pretty heavily townread me towards the end of D1, and now he's starting D2 off supposing that I killed fwog. The disconnect doesn't feel natural, and fits in with your reasoning in 443.

well first of all, yes i'm supposing that you

MIGHT

have killed fwog, but this is done for the sake of not letting any possilities unchecked, plus if i really was maf and were trying to frame you, would I really try to cast suspision on you by talking to the one person who looks pretty convinced this kill was done for FoS?

[Gypyx]

Also, I think that scum may have picked from people off the BV wagon and there should be at least one scum on that wagon.

could you explain why do you think that, i don't really follow your train of thoughts there (also if you could try to explain stuff in general a bit more)

[Gypyx]

Yeah, i don't think that point really applies, plus that vagon was kinda weird, i don't think that scum would've needed to stay off this one

[Gypyx]

^ EBWOP: With posts linked:

@gyp:

Re: post 301 - a key part of your townread of LL seems to be your feelings in 301:

"for instance, taking off your vote on petri, assuming that you're scum and Petri isn't your scumbuddy
(which would be quite weird, considering what you did in post 179) you had the opportunity to just keep your vote on him,
and surely, this would've been pretty likely to cause an unintentional hammer, while not making you that suspcious,
but you chose to take it off, which i find to be quite illogical to do as maf
(like, even a scum wanting to make himself look better could've just pointed out "hey watch out, petri is actually at L-1)


I disagree with your read of LL here. The momentum of day one feels like it was heading towards a bv lynch quite easily.
In the end, we had 6 players happy to vote for bv (I stated intent to hammer but TM hammered instead)
I feel like LL wouldn;t need to pursue Petri, with bv's head on the chopping block.

So, what I;m saying, if you set this thought-process aside Re: your townreading for the above rationale,
do you townread LL for any other reasons?


You say in your post 163, you don't see LL's
"carelessness" you're describing, so, i don't think that the read you have on him really applies

Pretty much what I feel is you also see LL as being disingenious, thus scummy here.


Basically, what I;m getting at, are you willing to jump on the LL wagon and see where it goes?

I've been townreading him for other reasons, but what i've said about him taking off his vote was the main part that led me to belive he's town

While i don't really see what you talked about as disengenuous, I agree that there was other weird things coming from him recently, like the fact that he accuses me upon considering that he could be scum

So overall yeah, I feel like lynching LL is probably the best choice there, because even if he doesn't flip scum, we'll probably have a good idea of where the scum could be
VOTE: Lucky

Attention, this is L-1 on LL

[Gypyx]

(Also, sorry for delay between posts, i'm having motivation issues)

[Gypyx]

And to answer your last question, I've tried to take it into consideration. I feel that the logic behind my decisions is sound, removed from my personal opinions.
As such, I'm happy to entertain suspicion on Lucky and I want to see what comes from that wagon.

The crux of Lucky/72 needs to be resolved as I see it, and pushing in both directions is beneficial as long as we reach a consensus, even if it's a compromise. I intend to continue pushing 72 unless it becomes more important for us to pursue Lucky.

Well, could you explain why you'd rather push 72 than LL, I feel like a flip from LL would generate more information

[Gypyx]

In post 618, Gypyx wrote:
So overall yeah, I feel like lynching LL is probably the best choice there, because even if he doesn't flip scum, we'll probably have a good idea of where the scum could be
VOTE: Lucky
Attention, this is L-1 on LL


Who would be scum if LL flips town. This post pinged me super hard.

I'm pretty sure that LL / 72 is W/V or W/W

[Gypyx]

Fuck

[Gypyx]

In post 618, Gypyx wrote:
So overall yeah, I feel like lynching LL is probably the best choice there, because even if he doesn't flip scum, we'll probably have a good idea of where the scum could be
VOTE: Lucky
Attention, this is L-1 on LL


Who would be scum if LL flips town. This post pinged me super hard.

I'm pretty sure that LL / 72 is W/V or W/W due to the way they interacted and second scum would lie somewhere in Petri / Micc

[Gypyx]

Ok so I think my post got misunderstood, my point was that, even in the worst case scenario that LL was town (which i doubt, but i'm trying to consider every option) we would still be in a good position, so therefore LL is a good lynch

[Gypyx]

And yes Petri, i'm pretty convinced that LL is scum

[Gypyx]

This is not what I expected to wake up to. Petri looks very good here, though I'm not sure about the rush for me to claim. I understand the logic just felt odd.

Anyways, Gyp just leaped to the top of my scum read. Their entire vote on LL feels like TMI, they seem convinced LL will flip town and don't seem to care at all. It's also strange to dismiss 72's entire case on LL, it'd be easier to sheep. And we have putting LL and L-1 without notifying. However, this post is pro the mafia win condition, I'd feel Mafia players would at least try and be a bit more subtle than that, so I'm going to check their ISO.

I'm not dismissing in case, i just mentionned that i don't really think the points he brought directly to me really stood, while providing my own reasoning for thinking that LL is scum

[Gypyx]

Ok so I think my post got misunderstood, my point was that, even in the worst case scenario that LL was town (which i doubt, but i'm trying to consider every option) we would still be in a good position, so therefore LL is a good lynch

I understood your post but let's break down how it comes off.

I've been townreading him for other reasons, but what i've said about him taking off his vote was the main part that led me to belive he's town

While i don't really see what you talked about as disengenuous, I agree that there was other weird things coming from him recently, like the fact that he accuses me upon considering that he could be scum

So overall yeah, I feel like lynching LL is probably the best choice there, because even if he doesn't flip scum, we'll probably have a good idea of where the scum could be

1. The opening is you explaining your town read of LL
2. You disagree with 72's scum read of LL.
3. The first mention of scum LL, you site one thing and wave more examples as "weird things."
4. You focus on what happens if LL flips town, and why it would be a good lynch anyways.

So while your post technically comes down on a mafia viewpoint off LL, you do vote for them. You spend the majority of the post,\ viewing them as town with nearly no arguments or evidence of them being Mafia. It comes off as opportunistic, as you try to lynch someone scum reading you, while not wanting to be assoasocitad with a bad argument agaisnt them.

Well, i viewed them as town as it is what needed the most explaination imo, because there's no need to explain why you want to lynch someone you consider as scummy
And then, while I see how this can be viewed as opportunistic, this is just my process of thoughts (and btw, i don't think distanciating you from a lynch while being the vote that puts at L-1 is a realistic plan)

[Gypyx]

Well, i have a theory that 72 / LL might be the scumteam, but i don't really have the time to explain it as i have to do other things

[Gypyx]

(just a quick note, i'll have to be gone for 4hours / 4h30 i'll make the rest of my posts then )

[Gypyx]

I'm back, it's 01:43 and i'm super tired but i'll try to explain as much as I can

[Gypyx]

@Gyp, if you wanna clarify your read of LL now would be the time to do it. Show us those posts you find scummy.

First of all, he's really defensive when I mention that he could potentially have been the one who killed fwog, i don't really see that coming from an annoyed townie

Then, him asking me to vote off petri is quite weird, considering that he basically said that he knew i was a "pushing player" so basically, it's as if he just wanted to put more pressure on petri, while keeping himself in the distance

And overall, his answers on 72's case are fairly bad, like for instance, i don't see how buddying someone and

indirectly

pushing for him to get lynched is incompatible

[Gypyx]

And then, i also wanna point out how 72 / LL interactions are kinda weird
-for instance, he accuses me full force when i consider that he might have been the one who night killed, but when 72 make a full case against him, he doesn't really seem to care (he's still agressive, but i think that's just his playstyle)

-then, 72's reads kinda came out of nowhere, i don't think that before D2, 72 even mentionned that he was susp of LL

-and then, when LL asked me to focus on Petri, that was also around the time where i was digging stuff about 72, so it kinda feels like he's indirectly defending him

[Gypyx]

i'm talking about this one

[Gypyx]

sorry i meant this one
Anyways, one last post before going to bed, while I agree that the way this post was formulated felt town-motivated, the peoples implied made it the opposite

[Gypyx]

Ok, so, the claims we have are
72 with a cop claim + guilty on LL
And
LL with a tracker claim right?

[Gypyx]

Okay, we are not lynching outside of 72 and LL, that's insane.

It's not insane now that we are in the world where there is either a doctor or no second town PR. If 72offsuit is a cop, he's always neutralized by a roleblocker from here,

but if LL is a tracker he can get another result tonight by being protected by the doctor.

The downside tho is that wrong today means we can't afford to get the coin flip wrong tomorrow. The risk there just isn't worth the payoff.

I ready to vote LL but I'll wait until closer to the deadline in case anyone has more to say.

This post kinda feels like TMI here, like, it's formulated in a way that makes me think that micc knows there is a doc, which is still fair, he could be just assuming stuff for sakes of reasoning, but it also feels like he knows LL is a goon as he says that 72 is "always neutralized by a roleblocker"

So yeah VOTE: micc

[Gypyx]

Okay, we are not lynching outside of 72 and LL, that's insane.

It's not insane now that we are in the world where there is either a doctor or no second town PR. If 72offsuit is a cop, he's always neutralized by a roleblocker from here,

but if LL is a tracker he can get another result tonight by being protected by the doctor.

The downside tho is that wrong today means we can't afford to get the coin flip wrong tomorrow. The risk there just isn't worth the payoff.

I ready to vote LL but I'll wait until closer to the deadline in case anyone has more to say.

This post kinda feels like TMI here, like, it's formulated in a way that makes me think that micc knows there is a doc, which is still fair, he could be just assuming stuff for sakes of reasoning, but it also feels like he knows LL is a goon as he says that 72 is "always neutralized by a roleblocker"

So yeah VOTE: micc

The context of this post is discussing the potential for either PR claim to get a useful result. 72offsuit can’t get a useful result when he’s dead, and every scenario where he lives involves a Roleblocker. There’s no TMI here, everything I’ve said is pretty straight forward to work out by just looking at the setup.

Yes, but there are still 2 things that bother me, first, you didn't even consider the possibility that LL was the roleblocker, and that's some fairly big odds you ignored there (50% as you said that you were only talking about scenarios where 72 lives)

And then, you also said that doc could protect LL if he was actually tracker, but the second TPR with a tracker is actually a jailkeeper, so I don't know how you made that confusion, but i think that :
the only way for town to know the possible setups are to look at the grid, and it's pretty hard to mix up roles by looking at it, so you must have learned the roles in some other way, and therefore, i think that you had information that town couldn't obtain

[Gypyx]

Well, if micc is doc, i think he should claim it, otherwise silent doc would be best

[Gypyx]

I get your point, but i dont think that a single instance of not discussing one scenario is a concrete pin on someone. We have time, lets use it and not be stupid yeah?

While I agree that we shouldn't rush things, the scenario micc didn't dicuss also is a pretty likely one (about 50% odds) and it also happens to be a scenario that scum!micc knew isn't possible, so that's pretty concrete imo

[Gypyx]

sorry for the inactivity, i'm back

[Gypyx]

Alright, Micc, can we have your read on Gypyx? I know you read enomis as more scum than Gypyx, but I'd like to hear your full read on Gypyx. Let's move this forwards.

Gypyx, how do you read Enomis? I know you read Micc as scum. Is it a Micc-today, enomis-tomorrow kind of affair?

72, how do you read Enomis? I know you agree with the points made about Micc.

Well kinda yeah, I read Enomis as slightly town right now

[Gypyx]

yes, i do. Can you tell me why are you asking that?

[Gypyx]

While i agree when you point out that his interactions with LL point towards him being town, i also really like the fact that he tries to keep everything organized right now

[Gypyx]

While i agree when you point out that his interactions with LL point towards him being town,

i also really like the fact that he tries to keep everything organized right now

Why? OMG. How is lining up lynches town?

wait, where did he line up lynches? plus my point isn't even about that, it is that he tries to make the lynch go on in a way that's clearly supposed to help town

and also, you agreed to micc saying that we should lynch micc into enomis, so, if you're so much against lining up lynches, why did you agree with micc?

[Gypyx]

@ gyp and petri - do you see enomis vs micc being possibly town vs town?

Why or why not?

I really doubt that doubt that, as it would mean that Petri is maf by PoE and I think that petri is town

[Gypyx]

While i agree when you point out that his interactions with LL point towards him being town,

i also really like the fact that he tries to keep everything organized right now

Why? OMG. How is lining up lynches town?

wait, where did he line up lynches? plus my point isn't even about that, it is that he tries to make the lynch go on in a way that's clearly supposed to help town

and also, you agreed to micc saying that we should lynch micc into enomis, so, if you're so much against lining up lynches, why did you agree with micc?

I wanted to win a bet with Micc. But I didn't know that it was not allowed.

Anyways, If you are in my shoes and you are town. It looks like Micc is getting lynched. Would you agree to lynching yourself on day 4? Lynching a 100% confirmed town?

That's why I say I don't see any benefits in doing this. Go read my post where I say that.

ok, yeah that's fair, even though putting yourself in a situation you consider as unpleasent just for "change ur pfp lol" seems a bit weird to me

[Gypyx]

and we're one day away from deadline, I think that 72 shouldn't wait much longer until he hammers

[Gypyx]

I'm VT

[Gypyx]

So VOTE: enomis

[Gypyx]

Yes, I agree that we shouldn't rush things, but on the other side, eon't try stalling for time pls

[Gypyx]

fuck, i deleted my case while wrting it, will take me 2-3 hours to rewrtie everything at best (there isn't that much, but i don't have a lot of free time left)

[Gypyx]

so, let's get this going, third time i'm re-writing this because i don't know how to save a draft

############ Day 1 ############

Hey guys, skimmed through the threads and make some notes.

Town:
Tuxedo seems town to me.[The part where he talks about quarantine being the reason why he tries to skim the thread very often to try to inspect people]
Fwog can be town for now as i grouped some of his interactions with tuxedo,gypsy and 72 as not scumxscum interaction.

Scummy:
BV,Petri

Abit Scummy:
72

Rest not much read.

here, Enomis just got into the game, and it really feels as if he's trying to read what looks like LL's planned mislynches as scummy, but doesn't find anything to actually say about them, so therefore he just chooses to write them as scummy

this feeling kinda confirms to me later on, as we don't really see Enomis actually develop on his reads, like, when talking about BV, he doesn't actually generate much content by himself, and rather tries to push peoples towards scumreading him (the first point he actually makes about BV comes 12 hours later, by that message, he has asked 3 peoples to expand their scumread on BV)

and about Petri and 72, the only explaination he has given about his reads is

"Petri was because of gut when reading through his posts in one read. # so, he put petri as scummy, based on posts that he admits later on to find hard to understeand (Post 472 i'll talk about that later)
72 was a super slight scum read from one post he posted I think. Don't really remember now much as i realised i didn't take it down in my notes." # I find this kind of too convinient
said in post 361

#########################

and also, I find it really strange that LL and enomis never interacted, even thought they both were pushing the BV wagon quite hard (i'm pretty sure that LL is also the ONLY person that Enomis haven't asked to develop his read on BV to)

########### Day 2 ############

Lucky seems town after isoing him. Seems like genuinely scumhunting. And I don't think scum will point out the mason soft.
To be frank, I am thinking if it is the reason scum killed fwog.

I think writing that post made me realize the problem I've been having with this game. I feel that the energy levels of different slots either started high and diminished over time, started low and picked up later on, or hasn't been there all game, and it's led to this weird game state where people are trying to solve at different times but it doesn't feel like town has all been present trying to progress the game at the same time. Especially with how I now feel about Petri's slot, it just doesn't feel like scum has been put in a position where they have to be proactive. It also explains why the moment scum does make a move (bv), it stands out to clearly.

This post also feels super genuine and towny.

Why is posting a soft-claim theory on a dead player alignment indicative? Say what???

I agree with your conclusions but a scum might try and give that read if they know it could never have been true. If there's a rolecop for example, they know there isn't a masonry.

@Petri, @72

: It wasn't the main point of the argument, it was to substantiate the other evidence. But I understand that it isn't a strong argument.

I just thought that it was more likely for town lucky to point that out compared to scum lucky. Especially if they killed Fwog because he soft-claimed PR.
But I am not sure if scum caught this claim as I didn't catch it until lucky pointed it out.

1. Again, why the focus on scum partners?
2. Other than Micc, who would be head #2 on your chopping block?

@72:

1) It wasn't meant to focus on scum partners, it is just what I noticed throughout iso-ing/ some notes i took down when doing the original catchup
2) Currently no one. I used to have Petri/72(You) as scummy reads by gut but I forgot where I had my gut read. So I most likely have to iso you two again.

I realised you always focus on the side point of my argument.
1) What do you think about my argument of Micc being scum?
2) What do you think about my other points of Luciano being town?

first of all : very weird phrasing here, the transition in his reasoning makes it sound like he knows that LL is scum

and then even if that's just weird reasoning, the logic behind this doesn't really hold, like, he says that scum might have caught on the fact that fwog softed mason, and he doesn't even suspect LL for being apparently the only person who caught on that claim, and also, it would be a pretty big coincidence for town!Enomis to miss the fact that Fwog started to push on LL being scum last day AND that he pushes the theory that fwog died because of Mason soft

#####################

Iso-ing 72:

72 feels town to me. But there are some questions:

Petri’s post 92, his analysis of me questioning gyp’s post in 80 , still really bothers me.
Just feels like scum looking for a scum read on anyone. Feels like a 2-for-the-price-of-one-bargain-bin move: 2 fake FoSes based on just one interaction.
Not sure why you would jump to that conclusion, rather than take it as the read on a player that it was.

Petri’s voting pattern, voting for the clear fwog, me (yes, only I know I’m town, but the point still remains), and for bv, also clear-town.

If Petri had such a reaction to my post, it feels at odds for him to post
post 82, which was on Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:41 pm and makes no reference to my post 80

And then only ~12 hours later, in post 92 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:43 am , decides he doesn’t like my post 80.

Just doesn’t feel right.

VOTE: Petri

I thought you had petri as null. And BV was your strongest read because of the unvote. What changed?

Isoing Petri

Regarding the above, I did not call it an immediate success. I said that I got responses regarding self-listing in spades. This was from more than fwog and informed me more on how things are run in here.

@Petri: What reactions were you expecting when doing that reaction test? (I know that I am backtracking alot here)


And.... This is all I got from your iso. Didn't really have the same gut read that I had went reading through the game the first time.

I found it abit hard to read your wall posts. Don't know if it was the way you phrased or your formatting.

and here, Enomis totally backed from the reads he had day 1, with no real reason other that "hey, i changed my mind, these mysterious posts i never mentionned aren't that scummy when re-reading them" while still staying out of commitement for his reads, especially on petri

##################################

Yeah, i don't think that point really applies, plus that vagon was kinda weird,

i don't think that scum would've needed to stay off this one

uhhh...? I don't know why but the bolded part seems to me like a scum slip.

My argument was about scum being on the wagon, not scum being off the wagon.
That one line seems like you know that even though scum if off the wagon, scum didn't have to stay off the wagon as it was weird.[/quote]

Yeah, i don't think that point really applies, plus that vagon was kinda weird,

i don't think that scum would've needed to stay off this one

uhhh...? I don't know why but the bolded part seems to me like a scum slip.

My argument was about scum being on the wagon, not scum being off the wagon.
That one line seems like you know that even though scum if off the wagon, scum didn't have to stay off the wagon as it was weird.

^

here, LL comes out of kinda nowhere, supporting Enomis theory that i scumslipped when talking about the wagon, which would be fine on it's own but then :

I'm not agreeing with enomis' change in perspective on Gypyx. Gypyx's post reads as if he's scum and discussed how the votes should be distributed in the mafia PT.

here, it looks like LL thought that was a great opportunity to push a mislynch on me, and that he also wanted Enomis to join on this push, but his post isn't really phrased in a way to make a towny Enomis change his mind about me, but it still gives him an opportunity to get the push going, then 72 making a case about LL kinda cut things short, but i feel like this is still indicative for scumXscum

################# Day 3 ################

So, this is not really a scumtell, but more of a "this doesn't mean you're town" tell

Actually, now that I re-read the interactions between Gypyx and Lucky, I really don't think they are scum partners
Especially where Lucky call out Gypyx a few times and also Gypyx for copying him.

And you all were right. Lucky was pushing Gypyx pretty hard even before 72 Claim. If Gypyx was a roleblocker, I think 72 wouldn't be pushing this hard.

So this leads me to:
VOTE: Micc

I think I got this right now.

Here, enomis openly townreads me, but when we put this in contexte, it isn't really a bad play for scum!enomis to do, as at this point of the day, it was pretty obvious that almost everyone was reading LL / me as ScumXtown, so therefore, by being the first to actually detail why he's townreading me, he is getting a lot of potential towncred out of that "lmao scum me would never do that" thingy, while not really chaning town's mindset as everyone who spoke at that time seemed to think that way

####################################

And then, Enomis spent a fairly big part of the day docHunting for apparently no reason, which
-ignores the fact that if doc claimed, they probably would be dead next night anyways
-and it also is necessary for scum!enomis to know who's the doc, which totally explains why he has been doc hunting

#######################################

Anyway, just a last note, if I was scum, I would not have townread Gypyx that hard. I basically just made Gypyx a universal townread which I would almost lose in a 3way lylo. And if petri is doctor, my this line of play also brings me down to doom.

Coming into the day, Petri had Gypyx as a slight townlean and Micc had Gypyx as second scum after me.

Hard townread Gypyx is a really bad play by scum.

Also, you will notice that my play is all over the place. Scum me would probably be more organised and not just typing whatever I feel.

(Context : post was made around the end of day 3)

Notice how he already is defending himself, even though it is totally unecessary to do so for town!enomis, and even if Enomis was paranoiad town, there is very little reason for him to chose such a defensive approach, instead of just trying to find who's the most likely to be scum if not micc

######################################

So, here is the case, i'll take a look at what enomis wrote tomorrow, right now i'm 01 : 10 where I am, time to get some sleep
(I might have missed some stuff that I wrote down previously too, i'll update my case if I remember stuff)

[Gypyx]

I will post my case on Gypyx. Note that alot of this case is based on hindsight that

I KNOW THAT

Gypyx is scum. Nevertheless, I believe some points are still worth to be called out.

1)

Gypyx votes people to be at L-1 too easily without much reasoning behind it.

DAY 1

My general thoughts on Petri is that he focuses way too hard on being friendly with others / his reads and way of playing don't make me feel like he wants to find scum

in conclusion, i'd like to see what gets out of Petri if there's more pressure on him
VOTE: Petrichorus

Put Petri on L-1 here based on what gets out of Petri if there's more pressure. And his reasoning is that Petri is being too friendly.

DAY 2

I've been townreading him for other reasons, but what i've said about him taking off his vote was the main part that led me to belive he's town

While i don't really see what you talked about as disengenuous, I agree that there was other weird things coming from him recently, like the fact that he accuses me upon considering that he could be scum

So overall yeah, I feel like lynching LL is probably the best choice there, because even if he doesn't flip scum, we'll probably have a good idea of where the scum could be
VOTE: Lucky

Attention, this is L-1 on LL

Put Lucky on L-1 because there are weird things like "Lucky accusing Gypyx". Thus Lucky could be scum and even if he doesn't flip scum, Lucky flipping town will tell us where the scum would be. Can you see how weak this reasoning is?

This + the above fact on putting people at L-1 for weak reasons is so scummy.
1) Is to mislynch a town
2) Is to be on the wagon to buss his buddy because he thinks that the wagon is going through.

2)

Lucky unvoted after Gypyx placed Petri on L-1

First things first, UNVOTE: Petri. Karnage missed my vote, he's at L-1, this put him at L-2. I don't want an accidental hammer coming down, but I am still in favor of Petri pressure.

Which he got called out for. But think about it, why would he unvote here instead of just saying loudly that petri is at

L-1

. It is because he knows that if the petri lynch went through, scum would be in big trouble as the reason gypyx is on petri for is bullshit reason.

3)

Lucky's interaction with Gypyx in the post here looks so fake:

I'm torn between liking your responses

, and wondering why it feels like you are intentionally copying me,

I feel myself

wanting

you to be scum right now, so I'm going to take a step back and let other people weigh in

before I end up confbias tunneling you

.

Lucky did not in anyway shape or form has Gypyx as hard scumread. At most it was a scum lean and he even says he is torn between liking his posts and copying. This reaction then change to he wanted to a step back before he end up confbias tunneling Gypyx?

This looks so not genuine. Also, the fact that he say before he end up confbias maybe because he

KNOWS

Gypyx is scum.(A Scumslip)

4)

Lucky said Gypyx discussed votes in mafia pt:

I'm not agreeing with enomis' change in perspective on Gypyx. Gypyx's post reads as if he's scum and

discussed how the votes should be distributed in the mafia PT.

The red highlighted point really has no link to what I thought was a scum slip.
1) The scum slip was about Gypyx saying scum didn't need to be on Bv's wagon(Scum isn't on BV wagon)
2) But lucky translated it to discussing how votes should be distributed.

UNLESS

they discussed it and that's why he wrote this second red higlighted point.(Although it has no big link to the possible scumslip.)

-----------------

@Petri

I know some of the points above is a stretch. But i think point 1 and point 3 are particularly scummy.

But i think the confidence of Gypyx scum should come from the fact that I am so obv town. I really don't know how I can be scum doing the things I did.

1) first of all, reminder I was unaware of this being L-1, should be pretty obvious

And then, i'm pretty bad at actually voting, and I like to do pressure votes, you can check that by looking at my posts in Newbie 1993 (my only other game of forum mafia)

And then, what's wrong with trying to push petri outside his confort zone? Especially as I was pretty susp of his playstyle

About LL, I admit that my justification for voting him was pretty terrible, but first of all, I didn't think it was necessary for me to make a full fledged case on LL just for voting him, and also

I also had a feeling about the fact that 72's push on LL was such a radical push that kinda came out if nowhere, that I thought it wa likely for 72 to be either
-hard bussing LL to gain a lot of towncred
-an investigative who found 72 as guilty

So yea, i thought it was better to hide this theory just to not sell out 72 as potential TPR if he turned out to be right

And then, I hate it when peoples use it as an argument, but my vote was also based on gut about LL, i kinda stopped feeling like his posts were town-motivated

2) ok, while this argument isn't actually based on much, i'll just point out that : if i were his scumbuddy, would putting his vote off really matter? Like, the only way this would've actually helped is if he started pushing another wagon around the same time, which he didn't really do, apart from some poking at BV, that he didn't even initiate

3) well first, LL confbiasing me doesn't necessarily transposes into him scumreading me explicitly, and then, with hindsigth, these posts from LL feel more of a pocket attempt than anything else, like, he basically says "sorry for scum reading you i'll stop because i'm probably wrong"

4) well first of all, the "scumslip" you're poitning out isn't even what i said in my message

And then, he's interpreting my post, this is quite a stretch to conclude i'm his scumbuddy based on that

[Gypyx]

So here you go petri, feel free to ask if you want me to elaborate on anything else

And also, we still got 4 days from deadline, so unless you think we're in a dead end (which i doubt) i'd advise to keep going

[Gypyx]

Well, game has gone really quiet, I hope Petri can come back

[Gypyx]

Also, i skimmed back through the game and found this post, which i thought i'd add to my case

I JUST FIGURED OUT THE REASON I GET SCUM-READ IN ALL MY GAMES!
I mess around early game and newbies never live it down, hahaha I feel so so dumb but smart at the same time.

Anyway, I will be soul-reading everyone like I always do. Be wary scum

For example I have TMI'd- SHIT ... I mean... soul-read fwog as Town.

this post from JV (the slot that enomis replaced into) has an extremely "fake" feeling to it, like

- first, why does he even care about why he's getting scum-read, like, even though it is possible for town to ask themselves that question, it is more likely to come from scum as they're the ones who truly care about how others perceive them

- and also, he jokes about being scum, and this is a personal tell, but i've found that peoples who joke about being scum, mostly ARE scum, like 80%, of course this work better with posts that are made kind of quickly, for which I this JV's post falls under this category (needed to add additional stuff by replying to his message, post formulated in a kind of "hasty" way)

- and then, he proceeds to "mess around" right after having said that messing around makes his get scum-read, imo, this is proof that he doesn't really belive in what he's saying, and makes this post even more scum-leaning

[Gypyx]

(Happy birthday Petri)

[Gypyx]

Ok so, i'm gonna take a look at this and see if there are any actual good points said there

Next we have the killing of 72 instead of me. And I'll roll this in with townreading. Both enomis and Gyp town-read each other at the end of D3. Let's scum to a D4 with 72offsuit instead of me. 72 would have to look at why he was left alive, scumreading Gyp. Would he assume that Enomis had left him alive to finish off Gyp or Gyp, bluffing to try and push guilt towards enomis? What would scum do and why?

Any townie in this situation has no other information to go on and so, scum would fall in line and just call scum on one other person.

I feel that scum would do the latter. It's what I would do. So, in our current scenario that would make Enomis scum. Coupled with his interactions with Lucky, I'm pretty happy to call it. Enomis, you said you wanted a bet with Micc that lining up you two would be bad for town. I'm willing to take you up on that in spirit at least.

Now let me reiterate why I am town. Yes, I agree that killing of 72 alone does not make me town in anyway. At most it can be scum wifoming.

So why I am

OBV TOWN

is not just because of this. It is because of multiple factors.
1)

I would have killed you night 2

.
Believe me, I would.

THE BEST POSSIBILITY OF A NIGHTKILL IS USUALLY KILLING A PR

. I really don't get why you think if I was scum, I would kill a person who was at most a townread versus a person who has high chance of being PR.

a) well yes, while USUALLY, a PR kill is better than a VT kill, I doubt that we're in that case, as in the end, at the end of night 2, the numbers of PR's doesn't really matter as long as Enomis felt like he could have a chance getting to Lylo and winning it, and at the time of that post, it seemed like :

Petri was susp of Micc mainly, and probably Enomis afterwards, so overall, he's kind of the perfect guy to keep in what I feel is enomis's plan, it looked like he would've pushed on Micc, but had his reads unstable enough so that they could be influenced later on during the endgame

Tuxedo, on his side, was susp of a Petri / LL team, but, that meant that if he killed Petri, it would've forced Tuxedo to reconsider his reads, and I highly doubt that Enomis would want that kind of wildcard alive

So in sumarry, yes, it makes sense for scum!enomis to kill TM instead of Petri

2)

I NEVER IGNORE MY SCUMBUDDY IN A MAFIA GAME.

I don't know why you put this point as NAI. BUT THIS IS TRUE. YOU EVEN VERIFIED IT THROUGH MY META. And I was not even thinking of bringing up this point until you used

THIS AS A CASE FOR ME BEING SCUM

. And after I being self-meta as defense, you call this being wifom. Really?

So I predicted that you would call me out in this so I purposely ignore my scumbuddy so that I can use this argument as wifom? Do you realise no one other than you took this seriously as even a case against me on day 3. How could I possibly predicted that you would call me out on this to purposely ignore my scumbuddy if i was scum.

b) now that's a pretty badly formulated point, which doesn't really hold a lot of ground
First : meta loses a LOT of value when the player is self-aware of that meta, and I haven't actually watched through your scum games, but I doubt that you NEVER ignore your scumbuddies

Then : is it possible for scum!enomis to have a different playstyle given the context for that game
-you replaced late into D1
-between your post saying you will catch up, and your actual first reads, almost an HOUR passed, and by seeing the content you've put into it, you definetly had time to think of some kind of plays to make (and there was also a lot of time before you actually interacted with peoples, so, even more time for you to try and mix up your meta

Aside from that : "And I was not even thinking of bringing up this point until you used

THIS AS A CASE FOR ME BEING SCUM

. And after I being self-meta as defense"
Well, there's no proof of that, so that means we have to take your word for granted, which I think everyone watching this knows it's just a terrible idea

And finally : yeah we get it, you never ignore your scumbuddies, but even then, what kind of huge, unlikely, and irrealistic coincidence is the fact that LL is litteraly the ONLY person you ignored, you had no reason to do that, you seemed pretty eager on bothering pretty much everyone with asking them to develop stuff, but NO, you NEVER interacted with LL, this is way too much, especially considering that you were totally able of breaking your meta

3)

I was willing to take up a bet with Micc.

Again, I don't know why this is NAI. LETS ANALYSE AGAIN the pros and cons of me taking the bet.

If I am town:
1) If Micc is scum, we lynch scum, we win.
2) If Micc is town, we lynch town and lynch me day 4, we lose. (But I get to win the bet and ask Micc to change his avatar, so personal win for me considering that Micc is well-known in this site.)

If I am scum:
1) Lynch Micc day 3, Lynch me day 4, scum!me lose.
2) Lynch Micc day 3, say I don't want to follow the bet day 4, most likely get called out and lynched, scum!me lose.

WHERE AND HOW DOES A SCUM!ME AGREE TO A BET IF AGREED MEANS AN AUTO-LOSE FOR MYSELF.

So are you saying that I knew that the bet was against the rules and I did this purposely to make town townread me? Really? You think I will stoop that low and question my own integrity just to win one mafia game?

c) I don't belive that point really holds much weight, but let's explain why :

Let's consider things as of D3, you're in a pretty tight position, so some bold plays would really be required, and then, you propose a bet to micc, suggesting him and you as successful lynch order, of course, i don't doubt in your lack of knowledge in the rules, but let's consider what would happen if the bet was to go through D3

at the start of D4, let's say you kill 72, just as you would do without the bet, there's no doubt that petri would at least reconsider seriously if you're the actual scum as
- no one would lolhammer just because you made a bet, pretty sure this is also against game rules, even if bets were to be allowed
-even if you started to back off from your bet i HIGHLY doubt that this wouldn't at least raise serious doubt about your scuminess because you've voluntarily put yourself closer to the lynch

And, lemme point out now that this is the only TRUE WIFOM in this case, rest are just things you presented as wifom for sakes of pushing away the theory of you being scum, while there are actually some rational and realistic explainations behind those
[/color

4)

I kill 72 who scumread gypyx instead of you who looks pretty much convinced that I am scum 99%

So if killing 72/you doesn't matter since it is wifom, why not I kill you instead? TBH, People usually are stubborn and don't re-evaluate their read even though they think they are.

d) I mean, i'd really like some actual facts to back up that claim, i doubt that townies who just go into LyLo with a set scum in mind and never back down from that opinion are many
And then, 72's scum read on me didn't even seem that developed, like it's just 4-5 lines saying that "yeah, tbf i'm kinda leaning towards Gyp scum" (paraphrased of course)
And same for Petri, while I agree that he seems confident on a medium-level about his enomis read, him surviving the night has a pretty big impact on his confidence about that read, at least in theory

-------------------------------------

For the above 4 points, let's say you take one point as wifom.(Although some points are not even possible as WIFOM, like point 3) But Could i be WIFOMING again and again just to make this argument? If you look at the basis of these actions without WIFOM, all of them are hurting scum!me and bad for scum!me.

If you are saying I cut myself/do one thing that is bad for scum to wifom. That I understand. But to cut myself again and again and put scum in the worst position

JUST TO WIFOM

?

--------------------------

I really feel like I am banging my head against the wall here. You need so little to townread Gypyx but you are unable to townread me over THINGS THAT ME AS SCUM WONT DO ESPECIALLY POINT 3. AND THE OTHER POINTS TO A LARGE EXTENT.

So overall, yes, scum you would do those things, no it's not just to WIFOM, feel free to answer if there are any flaws in my reasoning

(If anyone is confused about the formating, I answer to his post by editing my answer to each sub-point in

this color

)

[Gypyx]

And i'll answer second post tommorow morning, or later in the night if i can

[Gypyx]

Well, that's kinda sad for the game to end like that, guess that's how things are

[Gypyx]

Welp, gg, made a lot of mistakes that games, but also learnt a lot, thanks for the game everyone

[Gypyx]

True, but tbh without Micc's "slip" i was pretty much fucked I think

[Gypyx]

Also yeah, @72, if you see that message, what were the reasons for you investing LL ?

[Gypyx]

Tbh I would've been frustrated as heck too if i were in your shoes Enomis x)