Newbie 2011 - Game Over

[Battle Mage]

We should have wagonned GeneralWu on Day 1 in hindsight. I've read his 2 most recent completed newbie games on this site, and he has a pretty obvious scumtell.

Less significantly, but also worth noting, in his last newbie game as scum here, he was joking around about being scum, just like here. He did not do this in his most recent completed towngame.

Wtmoo

VOTE: Generalwu

That's a pretty small sample size you have right there.

Also I sometimes do the joking around thing regardless of my alignment.

Also how did you hear about the word wtmoo?

ah sorry i should've explained. wtmoo is basically like wtf, but more polite!

how many games have you completed on site?

I've only heard the word "wtmoo" used on a math website. I didn't know people used it elsewhere lol

On this site those are the only 2 completed games I have, but I've also played forum mafia offsite.

you can't really complain I've used a small sample size if it's 100% of the games I could possibly have looked at.

I will admit I've only been using wtmoo since reading your scumgame.

[Battle Mage]

Spoiler: Honest Abe Stuff

GeneralWu - bit of an honesty complex?

Votato has actually been a bit opportunistic this game.

When people bring up things against Sleeper, he immediately goes and votes Sleeper despite not giving an explanation.

When you brought up the PT joke, he immediately starts speculating on who might be Freddie's partner.

Not gonna lie,

this is scummy.

Honestly, sometimes the first-timers say things that don't quite make sense and turn out to be town. These are the kinds of people who would make a good cop check or something, because they're harder to read.

Overall, I'm sort of getting the feeling now that Sleeper is just trying his best to solve the game, even though some of his reasoning might not make sense.

After deleting my initial cold hard gut read on BM from my mind, I looked at his iso and I actually liked his pressure on votato. It would be helpful if BM was active right now for me to get a better read, but right now it's leaning town.


I don't mean to be rude, but at what point do we seriously consider GG as a policy lynch for inactivity?

I kind of want to switch my vote to them, but I guess I'll just UNVOTE: Battle Mage for now.

I don't think policy lynches should happen in a 9p because there aren't that many players.

But honestly

, GG said he was sick a few days ago...
And the majority of his posts are activity posts like "I will look at this later". But he doesn't actually keep his promises.
If he keeps saying he's sick for like weeks on end then that should raise some red flags.

uh you realize it could be lack of interest which is not necessarily AI?

uh you realize it could be lack of interest which is not necessarily AI?

I would feel better about that if he told us that was the reason why. If he's posting in other games, it's super easy to say "the other games I'm in are taking up all my attention and effort right now" or whatever.

I agree with Sleeper.
Also if you're in too many games and you don't have time to play them, it's probably best to replace out of some of them. It's honestly better than playing some and lurking in others.

By the way,

if anyone has noticed

, GG said "I'm sick", and then on that same day he made a bunch of posts in a different forum. Is he lying about being sick or something?

not an honesty tell, but I hate these appeals^

am i supposed to convince you that you are scum
yeah, you might be town though. Having doubts on sleeper even though I defended him, so I might go votato-sleeper for my solve. But we probably shouldn't be speculating teams yet
GG and GWu I am decently confident in being town. I never scumread lurkers so yeah.
pedit: oops maybe

imagine having a lurker as your biggest scumread.
BM, how strong is your read on sleeper soul.

Why do you say that you don't want to scumread a lurker?
I don't think there's anything wrong with having a lurker as your biggest scumread, as long as you have reasons for the scumread.
Also "I

never

scumread lurkers" is kind of extreme

to be honest.

BM and Agar in your posts 169 168 id like to ask you both what are the chances that sleeper is making rookie mistakes in your opinion? his continuous references to his gut-feelsies is bad town behavior, and equally bad as a scum behavior. from what i gather, i assume that a newbie scum would probably be far more hesitant to take a stance on issues since he has to fake his town role, where as a town newbie might appear flaky because of his eagerness to participate. my read on him leans town right now. i think he is an easy target right now because he is active in the game...it feels a bit scummy to shade him for that Agar and BM imo.

I don't think gut is indicative of alignment in either direction - plenty of the best players I know start their reads off with gut and then progress from there. Sometimes it's just a perception of how you're posting or interacting that can't be defined that gives someone a tell on alignment. I lean mildly scummy on Sleeper based on what I said in 169, namely his seemingly trying to keep a lot of avenues open, but it's not anything that I'm looking to pursue with a wagon at this point. I'm much more happy trying to garner steam on a GWu wagon at the moment, unless Sleeper moves themselves more firmly into a scumread. It looks like you're townreading Sleeper by this post - why are you pushing on midway's townread of him, then?

GWu's posted some surface level content and interaction but doesn't appear to be making any :real: effort to divine the alignments of other players. The defense of BM in 94 still reads too informed to me. 170 uses the word "cautious" a lot when describing Sleeper but that post comes in basically reiterating what BM and I had already posited about Sleeper - it's not a new stance, and it's even - to borrow the descriptor - cautious in and of itself. It hems and haws on the possibility that Sleeper's being cautious but maybe he's just new. Or maybe he doesn't have reads yet. GWu seems very content right now to appear to be scumhunting but not actually contributing to anything.

@midway, gobble

Some scumreads/leans please? Posts that pinged you?

@Apogee

How do you feel about Sleeper at this point? There's been a good bit of posts since #121. Has the read evolved at all?

I have to agree about gutreads not being AI.
Although I did lose my first game here because I was correctly gutread by someone as scum and then hammered.
Also I agree with a lot of the things you mentioned about Sleeper. Agreeing or having similar thought processes isn't necessarily "not contributing to anything".
Why do you say my defense of BM was "way too informed"?

Agar:

I'm still interested in more from SleeperSoul to be sure and have a mild scumread still I think. Interesting although not necessarily AI that 3 people in quick succession agreed with me on it (p-edit and now votato). Your 168 sums up most of what I thought initially on his progression. I want to see a) what the "reads close to his chest" are and b) how he interacts with the game now that suspicion is fairly broadly thrown on him before really deciding to go after that slot hard. Best way to put it is right now his energy is more nervous scum than nervous town.

Other takes: Midway I'm surprised at the lack of content he's posted compared to my previous game with him d1. Whether this is a change in his playstyle or him being hesitant to post as scum I couldn't really tell you but he posted up a storm d1 in Newbie 2003.

Hmm I reread Sleeper's posts and I kind of get the feeling that Sleeper is probably a bit more nervous towny than nervous scummy.
He reminds me of certain townies playing forum mafia for the first time.

Honestly,

this wagon on Sleeper happened kind of quickly.

Also regarding midway's contribution, I feel like there are some games with a lot of content and a lot more ways to contribute, and some games with not as much content and thus not as many ways to contribute, so I think it's pretty natural to see people's contribution fluctuate depending on the game situation.

Apogee is pretty towny with this post.

I'm done serving as bait for scum to jump on... At least intentionally!

I'll try to be as open as possible with my reads going forward. I'm still wary of sharing too much because I do tend to change my mind often, and I don't really want things to get muddled. But it seems like town needs more from me.

Here's a list of all my reads so far.


AGar - Biggest town read. I tend to agree with/understand a lot of what he's saying, which makes me think he's coming from a town mindset.


Apogee - Town read. I like that he seems to be trying to save me from myself in 148. I think if he was scum trying to pocket me he wouldn't be giving advice like this. Also seems to be trying to help solve the game.


Freddiethelady - Slightly town. We seem to have very different mindstates. I don't understand Freddie's motivation a lot of time. But I remember having similar feelings while reading Newbie 2004, where they were vanilla town.


GeneralWu - Slight town, he seems to be trying to help town solve the game.


midwaybear - Very slight town. Does seem to be trying to solve the game... Or at least trying to look like he is. Having no scum reads seems scummy to me.

gobbledygook - Nothing to read. could be mafia lurking.

votato - Slight scum. Doesn't seem to trying to move the game forward. Seems to be opportunistically jumping on me.

Battle Mage - Biggest scum read for most of the game. Although I'm slightly worried that this game as been mostly town vs town fighting eachother and scum lurking in the shadows.

I agree with your read on AGar.
I also townread Apogee, but not because of the advice-giving. Anyone can give you advice like that, so it's generally NAI. In fact, in my experience both town and scum players can give advice to first-timers.
About Freddie, I don't think a one-game sample size is enough to judge her, and I don't quite understand why you townread her because she says things that are different from what you think. I also don't think meta-reading someone is enough, because she can purposely emulate her playstyle in another game.
About midway, he hasn't done much this game

to be honest

.
About gobbledygook, he also hasn't done anything yet. Also he said he wasn't active because he was sick, so he's probably not intentionally lurking.
About BM, I think he's pretty towny. Also, why do you think this game is mostly TvT fighting?

Also why were you "intentionally serving as bait for scum to jump on"?
This line kinda makes you seem like you're trying to cover up your mistakes from earlier by saying "oh yeah I was purposely messing up".

Also I just realized that while talking about Sleeper's reads, I posted a readlist of my own lol.

[.spoiler=]

mmm, i think we should refrain from speculating too much about people's exact roles, as it only serves scum interests. all we need to do is speculate about who is scum. and putting someone at L-1 is generally not a good idea that early on, but at the same time, it draws a lot of attention to you if you are scum. either way, its a bad play imo, so i dont really know how to sort it without more info.

This post is pretty towny.

AGar is generally pretty aggressive. If its AI, i'd say its town indicative.

Trying to solve the game.
Also have you played with AGar before?

i realize that BM always plays like this, but is it a good excuse for doing so? if deadline approaches, i would like to suggest BM for PL

Why would you suggest BM for PL? I didn't see any post where you explained this (although I might've missed something here).

There has to be scum between AGar and BM. I'm leaning towards BM being scum.

With that out of the way, we should be focusing on players that haven't been pushing the game forwards so much or making themselves readable.

why does there have to be scum there? is there no chance that its TvT?

This post also makes votato pretty towny, since it's asking a question.

VOTE: sleeper

also willingish to go for GWu

This post seems pretty opportunistic.

hmm im leaning towards the scum PT being more likely, but we will see. if you are scum, your partner is probably (in decreasing order) {gobbles, apogee, GWu, sleepersoul}. gobbles would be the most likely

Why did you say this? And where is your explanation?

Overall, I think votato has made some efforts to solve the game, but not explaining things and being opportunistic makes him a bit scummy.
I'd say he's at a townlean for now.

[./spoiler]yes, ive played with agar before. actually ive played with a significant portion of the lobby before. ive also played with BM before. BM is always scummy and not someone id want around in lylo, so a good candidate for a policy lynch. also, asking questions is not AI. my explanation for my read on freddie is a meta read. i know freddie pretty well, and know what shes normally like. i also have been all her other mafia games, so know what shes like in mafia. like i explained later, the most likely scumpartners are experienced players who have at least some scum equity. but freddie is probably town. i just want that on the record so if freddie is in lylo its there as a reference.

To be honest

, I don't think policy lynches are that good in a 9p due to the lower number of players.

You asking questions makes me think that you're genuinely trying to solve the game, although I do agree that both town and scum can ask questions, so it's not a super strong townlean.

Meta can be wifomed very easily, so it's generally not super reliable.

Freddie did you get a lot of advice from someone since your last game? Or have you read a bunch of guides or something?

coached in the scum pt

Honestly,

for the people talking about the scum PT, I feel like this post wasn't meant to be serious and people were making a big deal out of it.

Do I talk like that only as scum though?

No, you do it as scum and town, but more frequently as scum. Your "honesty" per post ratio here is in line with your scumgame, rather than your towngame.

[Battle Mage]

jeez, that post went wrong.... but anyway. GeneralWu, I will say to your credit that you were feeling very town to me in real time, until I looked back at your ISO.

[Battle Mage]

I'm not telling you guys I think you're closed hearted because I think you're bad people. I'm telling you so that you might recognize it and be able to open up. If that's not possible, you probably have to lynch me. And that seems to be the case since I'm getting so much resistence.

I've played soo insanely this game that I doubt it's possible for me to assure everyone I'm town rationally. Next game, and all the games I've played since starting this one, I've been able to show towniness in more rational ways. This game I'm gimped so town benefits from lynching me since they are not willing to locktown me. That's okay, it's just the winning play for me to be lynched, that's all.

If I say you're locktown, will you actually do something useful?

I dunno, probably not, considering the history of this game. I've been trying to be useful and it's clear to me my best use is to be dead.

I hope when this game is over, you do actually go back and read some of my advice to you in good faith. It's obvious to me from reading your "lovers mafia" game that you are capable of thoughtfully evaluating players and doing a lot more than you've done here. It's also obvious that you know your reads are not infallible, so arrogance is not an issue. Giving up and sabotaging your own win condition, and the win condition of your team is literally the worst thing you can do in any game irrespective of your alignment. There is only one other person voting for you now, so this "woe is me" rubbish should stop.

You can do a lot better than this, and the fact you're not trying to play at all is insulting to everybody here, especially the newbies who are trying to learn the ropes.

[Battle Mage]

I'm a top scumhunter.

[Battle Mage]

I'm afraid of town mislynching, and I'm the best EV mislynch.... is that logical enough for you guys?

no it's dumb, stop throwing the game by voting for yourself. it's not just me telling you, it's AGar too, and he is conftown. Listen to the SEs.

[Battle Mage]

Who are your scumreads?
Why?

882 should explain why I scumread Sleeper

Assume Sleeper is town. Now who is scum?

[Battle Mage]

sleepersoul - nobody cares. i'm ignoring you completely from now on, just like you've ignored everybody else who has tried to help you.

[Battle Mage]

What did you think of the midway wagon yesterday? What do you think of the Freddie wagon today that got to L-1? Why haven't you voted anyone again? Did you know that if you're a townie, at this point your vote is the only tool you have in your bag? Of course you didn't, you are scum, but did you know that?

I haven't looked at the Freddie wagon that closely, but yesterday I have stated my take on the midway wagon.

Voting is not my only tool. A townie's power is in his voice and his vote. I haven't voted yet because it's just my habit to not be quick to vote people.

Who are your scumreads?
Why?

882 should explain why I scumread Sleeper

1.5 game days and that's all you've got?

I also think GG is scummy for lurking but I haven't taken a closer look at his more recent posts yet.

You should probably do that then. We aren't lynching Sleeper today.

[Battle Mage]

just ignore him dude, he's just playing spoiler. his reads ARE faulty, and he has no argument to make.

i wonder why you would choose this moment to start scrambling around for a case you can jump on?

[Battle Mage]

just ignore him dude, he's just playing spoiler. his reads ARE faulty, and he has no argument to make.

i wonder why you would choose this moment to start scrambling around for a case you can jump on?

Because I'm obvsiouly not getting lynched today. I trust AGar, AGar is making me suspicious of GWu.

I wasnt talking to you

[Battle Mage]

In my view, you are a somewhat capable player who is deliberately playing as badly as possible here to make a mockery of this game and spoil it for others by playing against your own win condition and failing to engage productively with anything. Despite being officially a newbie in a newbie game, you haven't listened to anyone who has tried to help you, and instead have focussed on making yourself the centre of attention, to the detriment of wider engagement and progression. You have flagrantly broken rules on multiple occasions despite being warned. Having seen how you approached your previous completed game, where you made an effort to think and sort, I consider that your approach here is disappointing, discourteous and unhelpful to all.

[Battle Mage]

In my view, you are a somewhat capable player who

is deliberately playing as badly as possible here to make a mockery of this game and spoil it for others by playing against your own win condition and failing to engage productively with anything.

Despite being officially a newbie in a newbie game, you haven't listened to anyone who has tried to help you, and instead have focussed on making yourself the centre of attention, to the detriment of wider engagement and progression. You have flagrantly broken rules on multiple occasions despite being warned. Having seen how you approached your previous completed game, where you made an effort to think and sort, I consider that your approach here is disappointing, discourteous and unhelpful to all.

See, this is where I disagree. I have indeed stopped suggesting everyone lynch me and started posting my reads, I've shown support for AGar and tried to start wagons with him. I said I'm willing to hammer you or GWu. So for you to say that I haven't been trying and I'm making a mockery of this game, that comes off as disingenuous.

Although that's true, it hasn't been the case for much of Day 2, and it's only the case now because I've had to cajole you. I have no issue with you 'scumreading' me, and even 'scumreading' me with no actual justification, but I do want to see you actually think about it and challenge your own confirmation bias here. The reality is, although of course you won't believe me, I am town, and therefore the problem is that if you keep tunnelling me, a mislynch today literally means town loses (because tomorrow you and 2 scum will vote for me and win the game). With greatest respect, you are a fairly new player, and your reads will not always be right. The ability to critically review your own reads and change your mind is important in general because:

A. if you tunnel someone who is town, scum can get away with scummier behaviour unchecked.
B. if you tunnel someone, you are very predictable and easy for scum to play against.

Every response you make to me, is tainted with a jibe/undercurrent of "yeah but you're scum", as an excuse to discredit my opinion because perhaps it's not always the easiest to hear. Most of what I've been telling you is NOT alignment indicative for me, but just indicative of playing well. Although it's WIFOM, I can assure you that if I was scum, I wouldn't bother making this much effort - I'd just NK you, or even lynch you (which I'm not trying to do, btw).

You sheeping AGar is fine, and you would do well to consider his conclusion that I am highly likely to be town, because he is an experienced player who has played with me before and his read on me is correct.

[Battle Mage]

Despite being officially a newbie in a newbie game, you haven't listened to anyone who has tried to help you,

I look forward to any and all tips or advice people might have for me after the game, and some of it in this game. It's just that, as a game of mafia, I can't simply take all advice given to me during the game at face value.

Yes you should absolutely take advice with a

pinch

of salt, only if it is potentially scum motivated.

Example 1: Me telling you not to tunnel me - potentially scum motivated because I'd rather not have you voting for me as scum (although suggesting you are wary of conf-bias is objectively good advice).
Example 2: Me telling you not to self-vote - clearly not scum motivated because if you're town, you self-voting would be tremendously helpful for me as scum.

Having written out example 2, I really have no idea why you think scum-BM would have pushed so hard to get you to not lynch yourself.

[Battle Mage]

@AGar do you not see the fact that Sleeper has contributed close to nothing? He hasn't posted his reasons for his reads, and he's also blindly sheeping people. He's also been talking about himself throughout the entire game (such as begging to be lynched, repeatedly making up excuses for his mistakes, etc). He has an active presence in the thread, but he doesn't contribute.
Do you think GG is contributing? How many of his posts are prodges? How many are actual contributory posts?

Why do you say I'm not contributing and therefore I'm scummy?

I don't really fundamentally disagree with your side of the debate with AGar here, although the tone comes off as rather defensive and guilty-looking.

It looked to me like, when the heat was on, you started scrambling for cases to latch on to, to save yourself. Your first avenue was Sleeper as the bigger other wagon, and then you tested the water with me and GG.

Objectively you are correct though, GG has done very little, and in normal gameplay terms Sleepersoul has been scummy as all hell.

[Battle Mage]

it is true that Generalwu's defence of me is one of the few really townie-vibe things he's done this game.

I don't want to lynch anyone until Freddie is back really.

[Battle Mage]

Despite being officially a newbie in a newbie game, you haven't listened to anyone who has tried to help you,

I look forward to any and all tips or advice people might have for me after the game, and some of it in this game. It's just that, as a game of mafia, I can't simply take all advice given to me during the game at face value.

Yes you should absolutely take advice with a

pinch

of salt, only if it is potentially scum motivated.

Example 1: Me telling you not to tunnel me - potentially scum motivated because I'd rather not have you voting for me as scum (although suggesting you are wary of conf-bias is objectively good advice).
Example 2: Me telling you not to self-vote - clearly not scum motivated because if you're town, you self-voting would be tremendously helpful for me as scum.

Having written out example 2, I really have no idea why you think scum-BM would have pushed so hard to get you to not lynch yourself.

See, this is why I took issue with your earlier comments on me not taking advice. Even here you acknowledge that I've taken on some advice. Therefor, your earlier calling me out seems disingenuous.

I already explained that since I'm anti-town, scum benefits from keeping me alive. In light of that reasoning stated earlier, the bolded statement seems like wifom to me.

Erm no, strictly speaking you mean that scum benefits from keeping you alive

if I'm town

. If I was scum, scum-BM would probably be quite happy to see you dead. You can legitimately argue it's WIFOM, it's probably debatable, but a technical point really.

You've taken my advice by sheeping my vote for GeneralWu which is helpful at least.

[Battle Mage]

Ugh, I am SO sorry. I am prod-dodging at the moment, but I kind of have to. I mean to get to this within the next hour.

I'll UNVOTE: temporarily to ensure you get the chance.

[Battle Mage]

freddie where ya go?

[Battle Mage]

So I still haven’t caught up yet but somethings really bugging me about votato’s lynch. I’m probably incriminating myself a little by pointing this out but I don’t care. The lynch was so random And I need to work this out. First I want to point out the points behind my thought process... 1) he wasn’t really that active 2) not a lot of people were talking about him and 3) most people here know him. So why him? Why did scum NK him when there was seemingly little to gain from it? I looked back over his iOS and

he voted two people: BM, sleeper, and Apogee

. Votato must have been on to something. I needed to get that out there for Agar to help me work out...

that's it? You, as allegedly votato's top suspect (according to AGar), are going to focus on speculating about who killed him, and suggesting we follow his reads??
A suicidal strategy. The votato kill could easily be explained by you doing it, or someone doing it to implicate you, or someone who thought he was a PR. Also, votato wasn't lynched, and me, sleeper and Apogee are 3 different people.

VOTE: Generalwu

[Battle Mage]

I clearly don't think you're scum. You clearly aren't reading my posts.

[Battle Mage]

The fact I disagree with the vast majority of what you say, doesn't mean I'm assuming you're scum.

[Battle Mage]

Why did scum NK him when there was seemingly little to gain from it?

One possibility is that scum are protecting themselves from my attacks on BM, since votato was supporting me.

hilarious that this assumes I'm scum, one post after you falsely accuse me of assuming you are scum. also, i'm slightly offended you think as scum I'd be threatened by an alliance of you and vot

[Battle Mage]

I clearly don't think you're scum. You clearly aren't reading my posts.

Again, I am reading your posts, so saying I clearly am not is another act of not being in good faith.

When i say you might as well just say I'm scum, that is to reconcile with the fact that you aren't taking my statements in good faith. If you weren't scumreading me, I would expect you to take them in good faith

my comment you responded to, was not an example of "not taking statements in good faith". It was an example of "explaining a logical gap in your observation".

maybe let's just work together but not talk to each other?

[Battle Mage]

I clearly don't think you're scum. You clearly aren't reading my posts.

Again, I am reading your posts, so saying I clearly am not is another act of not being in good faith.

When i say you might as well just say I'm scum, that is to reconcile with the fact that you aren't taking my statements in good faith. If you weren't scumreading me, I would expect you to take them in good faith

my comment you responded to, was not an example of "not taking statements in good faith". It was an example of "explaining a logical gap in your observation".

maybe let's just work together but not talk to each other?

I'm fine with not talking but if by working together you mean townleaning you, you'll have to do a lot more townie things this game, that don't have anything to do with me.

you'll probably need to townlean me at some point, or you'll cost us the game. given you're the only person who thinks I could be scum here, that is your problem, not mine.

Listen to AGar perhaps, who knows I am town.

[Battle Mage]

Because GG said they were sick.

Sidebar/Fun Fact: A lot of players on this site engage with a lot more than just the mafia games they're in. Outside activity is a terrible tell to rely on because you don't know *why* they're posting in one spot but not another. Maybe a particular game requires more attention than they can give at that time - say, they have 10 minutes to log on and Game 1 only has a couple new posts to address while Game 2 has several pages to get caught up on. Maybe they aren't at a laptop/desktop and can't address one game via cell phone/tablet - I know that's a personal thing for me, I can't format posts as well as I would like on a tablet. If they're posting in GD/MD, maybe they're just on the site for things outside of the games. There's a pretty banging community on this site, and a lot of us have interpersonal relationships outside of games that bring us back here. There's plenty of times I log on with the sole intent of just bullshitting in GD and not posting in a game.

That doesn't explain GG posting in other places while supposedly being sick.
Yes, posting in other forums is usually NAI, but when people say they're sick in one game and then proceed to post a ton in other forums, that's pretty much the same as trying to find an excuse not to post in that game.

agree with this

[Battle Mage]

Hi yes sorry I haven't been particularly engaged.

No offense to either of the players involved but the 300+ posts from Sleeper and BM going at each other just hurt to read

The case on GeneralWu makes sense. Like I interacted with that a little yesterday and I agree with the initial problems. The whole ongoing crusade against meta thing is a defense making me tilt my head. Like that's how you choose to defend yourself? Kind of wack imo.

Freddie's return up here was really far from inspiring. Trying to pivot the votato NKA away from her slot as well is NAGL.

Sleeper continues to just make me go ?!?. Like he's practically TWTBTWTBW at this point? Like I can barely repress my desire to just yeet that slot out of the nearest airlock.

you ok to hammer then?

[Battle Mage]

i'm done with today i think.

[Battle Mage]

GeneralWu, if you are scum, I think you've played a good game.

[Battle Mage]

Hi yes sorry I haven't been particularly engaged.

No offense to either of the players involved but the 300+ posts from Sleeper and BM going at each other just hurt to read

The case on GeneralWu makes sense. Like I interacted with that a little yesterday and I agree with the initial problems. The whole ongoing crusade against meta thing is a defense making me tilt my head. Like that's how you choose to defend yourself? Kind of wack imo.

Freddie's return up here was really far from inspiring. Trying to pivot the votato NKA away from her slot as well is NAGL.

Sleeper continues to just make me go ?!?. Like he's practically TWTBTWTBW at this point? Like I can barely repress my desire to just yeet that slot out of the nearest airlock.

you ok to hammer then?

I'll hammer but not for a day (or two) IRL probably. Ideally I'll reread a little more first

I'm bored now and want to see a flip. You said at the start of Day 1 you wanted to be my friend - now is the time to prove it!

[Battle Mage]

i just feel like generalwu's response to suspicion has been mostly about "where did i go wrong?" rather than really fighting it hard. Defeated?

[Battle Mage]

Votecount 2.05

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, SleeperSoul

SleeperSoul (1) -

Apogee

Freddiethelady (1) -

gobbledygook

Not Voting (3) -

GeneralWu, Freddiethelady, Battle Mage

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2020-06-30 19:00:00).

See the deadline here.
BM I feel is kinda suggesting we quickhammer before people get a chance to think.

Votecount 2.05

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, SleeperSoul

SleeperSoul (1) -

Apogee

Freddiethelady (1) -

gobbledygook

Not Voting (3) -

GeneralWu, Freddiethelady, Battle Mage

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2020-06-30 19:00:00).

See the deadline here.
BM I feel is kinda suggesting we quickhammer before people get a chance to think.

Note how much time is left and BM is suggesting a quickhammer.

You realise you quoted yourself here? What's your point? Are you trying to throw shade at me again?

It's hardly a quick hammer, we've been talking for ages, we've reached a consensus and I want to see a flip so I can solve this shizz.

[Battle Mage]

Votecount 2.05

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, SleeperSoul

SleeperSoul (1) -

Apogee

Freddiethelady (1) -

gobbledygook

Not Voting (3) -

GeneralWu, Freddiethelady, Battle Mage

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2020-06-30 19:00:00).

See the deadline here.
BM I feel is kinda suggesting we quickhammer before people get a chance to think.

Prolonging the day when no one is actually contributing content only serves to benefit scum as it drains the motivation out of the town and leads to apathy.

indeed

[Battle Mage]

Just a brief look at two points from yesterday during the RVS where we saw 2 wagons run up to L-2, and one to L-1.

25

Votecount Simmed

GeneralWu (3) -

AGar

, gobbledygook,

midwaybear

midwaybear

(3) -

Apogee, Freddiethelady, Battle Mage

gobbledygook (1) -

votato

Not Voting (2) -

GeneralWu, SleeperSoul[/area]

28

Votecount Simmed

GeneralWu (4) -

AGar

, gobbledygook,

midwaybear

, Battle Mage

midwaybear

(2) -

Apogee, Freddiethelady

gobbledygook (1) -

votato

Not Voting (2) -

GeneralWu, SleeperSoul[/area]

Independent of my reads on anyone:

One scumbag lies in {Gobble/BM/Apogee/Freddie} for sure.
There is only one potential scumbag in {GWu/Sleeper}

GWu scum means BM is all but certainly conf-town. Even the most aggressive of bussing scumbuddies wouldn't throw their partner to L-1 just 28 posts into a game. I would know.

Taking into account the last votecount from yesterday...

GWu/Apogee pairing is almost certainly not a thing.

So GWu's potential partners are {Gobble/Freddie}
If GWu flips town, Apogee would be my first suspect. Midway wagon had way too much resistance for a town wagon to have two scumbags on it.

Apogee's most likely partner is Gobble, followed by Freddie and lastly {BM/Sleeper}

This is helpful, although I don't entirely agree with it. If GWu flips scum, I think that makes GG town - given GWu was the only one to really put serious heat on GG for avoiding the thread. It definitely didn't read like distancing, and doesn't feel right as a play if they are scumbuddies, given nobody else was fussed about GG and it could have got him in big trouble for no reason (because GWu's points here were absolutely right).

GWu-scum would, for me, be paired with either Apogee or Freddie only, with the former being more likely. Interested in why you think an Apogee-GWu pair is off the table?

[Battle Mage]

oh i see, because no scum on Day 1 mislynch? yeah maybe, interactions wise i'm not sure though.

[Battle Mage]

@BM also if you think that what I said about GG is true, why do you prefer to lynch me rather than him?

it's AGar's day man. I'm a sucker for an appeal to emotion, and GG's promise to PM me after the game with some secret info won me over a little bit. Could he still be scum? yeah of course. I did try to lynch him earlier and it didn't happen, so can't be any complaints now.

[Battle Mage]

People say I'm not contributing, yet they don't see that Sleeper and GG have done close to nothing this game.

Other than that, people haven't actually brought up anything that justifies lynching me.

Your contributions do count dude, and you're right, you have played your part in this game. It's why I said you're unlucky to be lynched today.

[Battle Mage]

Ok if you all feel confident and have said what you wanted I'll hammer this evening EST (let's say 6-7 hours?)

I want to put a few more thoughts out first.

FOR FKS SAKE! I'll be asleep then!!

seriously, what the absolute moo!

[Battle Mage]

This is helpful, although I don't entirely agree with it. If GWu flips scum, I think that makes GG town - given GWu was the only one to really put serious heat on GG for avoiding the thread. It definitely didn't read like distancing, and doesn't feel right as a play if they are scumbuddies, given nobody else was fussed about GG and it could have got him in big trouble for no reason (because GWu's points here were absolutely right).

GWu-scum would, for me, be paired with either Apogee or Freddie only, with the former being more likely. Interested in why you think an Apogee-GWu pair is off the table?

It was entirely just vested in those two pseudo-VCs and the final VC. Just creating a basis for a little bit of PoE.

GWu/Apogee would be a very odd pairing to let the town do all the dirty work on a mislynch yesterday. Just doesn't seem very likely from two newbscum.

I also think Apogee would have had more to say about the speedwagon up to L-1 of GWu if they were buddied up, even just calling it out softly.

I can see the argument for GWu PoEing GG, and today's posting even further enforces that - no need to call attention to your buddy if you're getting run up. The potential partners for GWu weren't in any particular order in that post. Just narrowing it down in terms of the lynch pool based on VCs.

I'm sympathetic to this.

[Battle Mage]

GWu, I'm spent. I think you are a good bet for scum, although there's arguments for other players too, I didn't follow anyone in suspecting you, ostensibly everyone followed me. In addition to my previous analysis, your original response to pressure was really weak and scummy, and although your current approach is better, it shouldnt have taken you this long to give a crap and fight to survive. You just seemed like you'd been caught, completely off guard and were more upset with yourself rather than suspicious of those shading you. Your tone just hasn't been right until now, and this is too little too late.

If you are scum, I'm gutted we missed the chance to lynch you on page 2

[Battle Mage]

on a personal note though, you seem like a good dude, and i agree that in a game with so many people not doing much, you are unlucky to be in this position today. We can do a full debrief after game if helpful.

[Battle Mage]

@BM also if you think that what I said about GG is true, why do you prefer to lynch me rather than him?

it's AGar's day man. I'm a sucker for an appeal to emotion, and GG's promise to PM me after the game with some secret info won me over a little bit. Could he still be scum? yeah of course. I did try to lynch him earlier and it didn't happen, so can't be any complaints now.

It's hard for me to reconcile AGar being scum with the fact that nobody has cced yet. What would be the purpose of holding back a cc?

In good faith, I believe you have misunderstood what I said.

[Battle Mage]

BM, why are you sheeping AGar?

really he's sheeping me tbh. although it doesnt matter, I'm happy to be on the same wavelength as a conftown who talks sense.

[Battle Mage]

@BM also if you think that what I said about GG is true, why do you prefer to lynch me rather than him?

it's AGar's day man. I'm a sucker for an appeal to emotion, and GG's promise to PM me after the game with some secret info won me over a little bit. Could he still be scum? yeah of course. I did try to lynch him earlier and it didn't happen, so can't be any complaints now.

It's hard for me to reconcile AGar being scum with the fact that nobody has cced yet. What would be the purpose of holding back a cc?

In good faith, I believe you have misunderstood what I said.

Thanks. Please explain how I have misunderstood.

I believe you think I was talking about AGar possibly being scum, when I was actually referring to GG. I can appreciate how that misunderstanding could have arisen due to my wording. However, to be clear, I don't think there is any chance AGar is scum here.

[Battle Mage]

Sleeper - what would make you townread me more?

[Battle Mage]

@BM also if you think that what I said about GG is true, why do you prefer to lynch me rather than him?

it's AGar's day man. I'm a sucker for an appeal to emotion, and GG's promise to PM me after the game with some secret info won me over a little bit. Could he still be scum? yeah of course. I did try to lynch him earlier and it didn't happen, so can't be any complaints now.

It's hard for me to reconcile AGar being scum with the fact that nobody has cced yet. What would be the purpose of holding back a cc?

In good faith, I believe you have misunderstood what I said.

Thanks. Please explain how I have misunderstood.

I believe you think I was talking about AGar possibly being scum, when I was actually referring to GG. I can appreciate how that misunderstanding could have arisen due to my wording. However, to be clear, I don't think there is any chance AGar is scum here.

I see, thank you. See that's much better isn't it?

Now we are united, nobody can stop us.

[Battle Mage]

Sleeper - what would make you townread me more?

Now that I've experienced interacting with you in good faith, I'm willing to release my lock on you. You are still scum as of now.... Keep interacting with me in good faith and that might change.

No sex on the second date

[Battle Mage]

Sleeper - what would make you townread me more?

Offering yourself up as a mislynch could help.

Consider me offered up! As a mislynch, still no sex.

[Battle Mage]

Would it be helpful if we revisited your case on me? I can respond in good faith to your concerns.

[Battle Mage]

Would it be helpful if we revisited your case on me? I can respond in good faith to your concerns.

The fact that it seems I had to 'teach' you how to act in good faith this game pings me as scummy. I thought acting in good faith with everyone was the Standard Operating Procedure for townies, something you would have picked up on in your years of mafia experience.

I will reread the game tomorrow morning, you will be included in my analysis.

You're right - I'm sorry. I'm trying to make an effort here!

[Battle Mage]

Would it be helpful if we revisited your case on me? I can respond in good faith to your concerns.

The fact that it seems I had to 'teach' you how to act in good faith this game pings me as scummy. I thought acting in good faith with everyone was the Standard Operating Procedure for townies, something you would have picked up on in your years of mafia experience.

I will reread the game tomorrow morning, you will be included in my analysis.

You're right - I'm sorry. I'm trying to make an effort here!

Okay.... So are you saying that you didn't realize it was more townie to act in good faith with everyone until just now?

I'm saying that I was very focussed on pointing out aspects of your play which I considered scummy, and it wasn't helpful in terms of building our reads on each other.

[Battle Mage]

Would it be helpful if we revisited your case on me? I can respond in good faith to your concerns.

The fact that it seems I had to 'teach' you how to act in good faith this game pings me as scummy. I thought acting in good faith with everyone was the Standard Operating Procedure for townies, something you would have picked up on in your years of mafia experience.

I will reread the game tomorrow morning, you will be included in my analysis.

You're right - I'm sorry. I'm trying to make an effort here!

Okay.... So are you saying that you didn't realize it was more townie to act in good faith with everyone until just now?

I'm saying that I was very focussed on pointing out aspects of your play which I considered scummy, and it wasn't helpful in terms of building our reads on each other.

Oh alright, it's just that you seemed to be continuing to act in bad faith with me even after townleaning on me.

we're all good bro!

In unrelated news, I've just run my stats for this year so far:

100% winrate as scum
43% winrate as town

Of my town defeats, 75% were basically my fault.

Survival stats:
66% - Survived to the end
22% - Night killed
11% - Lynched

[Battle Mage]

Would it be helpful if we revisited your case on me? I can respond in good faith to your concerns.

The fact that it seems I had to 'teach' you how to act in good faith this game pings me as scummy. I thought acting in good faith with everyone was the Standard Operating Procedure for townies, something you would have picked up on in your years of mafia experience.

I will reread the game tomorrow morning, you will be included in my analysis.

You're right - I'm sorry. I'm trying to make an effort here!

Okay.... So are you saying that you didn't realize it was more townie to act in good faith with everyone until just now?

I'm saying that I was very focussed on pointing out aspects of your play which I considered scummy, and it wasn't helpful in terms of building our reads on each other.

So, to be clear, you knew all along that acting in good faith with everyone was pro town, even though when I called you out on day 1 for acting in bad faith, you reacted with more 'scumpings' from me?

I think that was just my mistake, my dude!

[Battle Mage]

BM, you still need to convince me you're town... just admitting a mistake doesn't cut it because as it stands I'm not sure if I believe you.

Well I've offered to talk to you about any concerns you have currently, or have had in the past. So it's upto you if you accept that offer and engage with me or not.

[Battle Mage]

BM, you still need to convince me you're town... just admitting a mistake doesn't cut it because as it stands I'm not sure if I believe you.

Considering how you've acted in bad faith with me in the past while supposedly townleaning me, I'm not sure if you're acting in good faith with your admittance of a mistake.

I think things just got quite heated between us and there was probably some blame on both sides for that. I don't think there's any incentive for me as scum to make the effort to win you over when I could easily just NK you tonight. But the important thing is for me to be open to dealing with the concerns you have, to give us the best chance of winning this game (and boosting my town win rate!).

[Battle Mage]

BM, you still need to convince me you're town... just admitting a mistake doesn't cut it because as it stands I'm not sure if I believe you.

Considering how you've acted in bad faith with me in the past while supposedly townleaning me, I'm not sure if you're acting in good faith with your admittance of a mistake.

I think things just got quite heated between us and there was probably some blame on both sides for that. I don't think there's any incentive for me as scum to make the effort to win you over when I could easily just NK you tonight. But the important thing is for me to be open to dealing with the concerns you have, to give us the best chance of winning this game (and boosting my town win rate!).

My issue is that to me it seemed like things were not heated anymore after you started townleaning me, and yet you were still acting in bad faith.

You're entitled to take that view. As AGar said, there have been occasions where I disagreed with you, regardless of alignment.

[Battle Mage]

I had made multiple attempts to soothe any heat by saying I like you and don't be salty.

Yes and that is appreciated, but you can probably tell that at times I've been quite annoyed with you, which was not good SE behaviour on my part. I have definitely found the tunnelling and shading frustrating at times, because I felt, from my own perspective, that it was a distraction from my goal, and in fact our shared goal, of lynching actual scum. On the whole, our discussions haven't progressed much at all, despite consuming a large proportion of posts - it would be a positive outcome if we could change that.

[Battle Mage]

It sure would be nice if votato was here to help me read BM today.

@AGar can you share anything from the mason thread on why votato had BM in his solve?

@BM Now that we are acting in good faith and you are townleaning me, are you willing to offer yourself up as a mislynch?

You probably won't like it, but my serious answer is that I consider offering myself up a mislynch in this situation to be against the rules, because it would be deliberately playing against my win condition. There's no value for town as a whole in a BM mislynch, given you're the only town player I could see pushing for it. Additionally, I have a responsibility as an SE to try and set a good example, which is ultimately more important than winning or losing.

I can't comment on votato, but you can probably take something from the fact that AGar, who was masons with votato, is considering me unlikely to be scum here.

[Battle Mage]

It sure would be nice if votato was here to help me read BM today.

@AGar can you share anything from the mason thread on why votato had BM in his solve?

@BM Now that we are acting in good faith and you are townleaning me, are you willing to offer yourself up as a mislynch?

Could you stop asking someone to offer up as a “mislynch”? And if you and BM could stop polluting the thread with your back and forth that don’t actually contribute to the game, that’d be great. We have players who aren’t active and shitting the thread up with a bunch of useless posts makes it that much more exhausting to catch up.

On the contrary, I'm very aware that if we mislynch today it's basically game over if I can't convince Sleepersoul I'm town.

As such, I'm making a concerted effort to engage with him and allay his concerns as far as possible, in order to increase the likelihood of us winning.

[Battle Mage]

AGar, you can probably do something positive in this regard too.

[Battle Mage]

I tried so hard and got so far
But in the end, it doesn't even matter


From my perspective, the conversation between BM and I is elucidating why we are reading each other the way we are.

let's hope we don't have to fall, to lose it all.

[Battle Mage]

Since BM admitted to acting in bad faith with me while townleaning me, I can't in good faith trust his word towards me. Therefor, can anyone else give me their reasons why BM is town so we can move on?

AGar, helpful in particular if you can come back on this.

[Battle Mage]

I'm getting super cold feet about this GeneralWu lynch...

[Battle Mage]

the prospect of a Freddie-GG scumteam lurking to victory worries me. i could almost lynch GG on principle and accept that town just drew a bad hand and scum made the effort. Freddie felt town when she was posting, but now she has gone awol and what she has said on Day 2 isn't great.

[Battle Mage]

I think a stronger case for BM would be made by providing proofs of townie behavior rather than reasons for scummy behavior.

You’re either not reading my post or intentionally misinterpreting what I’ve said because of a personal grudge. I’m done engaging with you, you’ve made this game absolutely unbearable to be a part of. At this point, I’ve laid out my reads. Your insistence on fighting with BM has sent every other player to ground and ground this game to a halt.

GWU needs to die because GWU is scum. Freddie going to ground looks sketch as hell.

I fucking hate that the two players I most read as town are the two players who have sucked the joy out of this game entirely.

dude in fairness I've only been engaging with it of late to try and win him over to avoid us getting instantly fucked in LyLo. In hindsight, it was completely pointless and painful, but at least I fucking made the effort.

I literally don't even care anymore - his analysis (if I'm being generous) has completely sapped even my enthusiasm.

[Battle Mage]

UNVOTE:

[Battle Mage]

Freddie, please give me something to work with, or I might legit lynch you today

[Battle Mage]

fk it VOTE: Apogee

I'll go with my heart, and screw everyone else.

[Battle Mage]

UNVOTE:

I'll wait until the replacement arrives

[Battle Mage]

If Apogee is town, and we don't lynch him, town always wins this game. This is a tempting thought. I'll be back properly later.

[Battle Mage]

UNVOTE:

I'll wait until the replacement arrives

why would you back down? there were only two votes on apogee...is he someone special to you?

More complete posting tonight but just want to throw out that this is bad and what BM did is pretty common courtesy for a replacement.

I don't care too much for courtesy. It just buys me some more thinking time. And I agree Freddie's post is unnecessarily tetchy here.

The thing that bugs me mate, is the stagnant GWu wagon. It had 3 townies on it for ages, with only 4 to lynch.

Apogee promised to hammer, but stalled for ages.
Freddie said he would like to hammer, but didn't.

What does this mean?

Unless scumteam is GeneralWu - Gobbledygook, scum have basically forfeited a surefire win with Sleepersoul still in the game.

Need to give some thought to likely combinations here.

[Battle Mage]

Okay so reading through all the posts and doing my best to understand everything ended up taking around an hour unfortunately.
As a matter of policy there are 3 things I don't find town indicative, Lurking, Quickhammering, there may be another name for this but I'll just call it "LAMISS" Look at me I'm so scum. Lamiss would be basically saying, doing this is far too scummy, and I did it and brought it up, so I can't be scum.
Apogee get's a town read from me by process of elimination. I honestly really don't want to justify it for that reason but it is a solid reason in my eyes.
Agar is confirmed town. In terms of Lurking, Freddy and Gobble. In terms of LAMISS. Battle Mage and GeneralWu. There are 5 potential combinations of scum partners I can see in this by the way. The only one I don't see possible is Freddy + Gobble, both lurking, regardless of whether its accurate or not, or if they have justification for lurking. The more people that lurk, the worse the game state it, its not healthy for the game, and it overall makes the game less enjoyable in my opinion. However, I don't think there's logical scum practice for both to be lurking. Logical scum practice would be one being active one being inactive. Meaning there are 5 potential pairs.
Freddy + Battle Mage
Freddy + General Wu
Gobble + Battle Mage
Gobble + Battle Mage
General Wu + Battle Mage
It's important for me to say, out of the 4 individually, Battle Mage I'm least suspicious of. However the interaction between GeneralWu and BattleMage, considering how similar you could say both of them play, to me feels like they're attempting to distance themselves from eachother.

I will look for more posts which will let me narrow down the 5 potential scum pairs I have over the next little while.
Just before I so that. Dear Lord was there a need for spam on page 19?

UNVOTE: GeneralWu
I'm doing this, solely for a fresh slate and no other reason.

you've narrowed it down to 5 potential scumpairs, and 4 of them involve me as scum?

barely an improvement on sleepersoul

disappointed is not even the word...

[Battle Mage]

Okay so reading through all the posts and doing my best to understand everything ended up taking around an hour unfortunately.
As a matter of policy there are 3 things I don't find town indicative, Lurking, Quickhammering, there may be another name for this but I'll just call it "LAMISS" Look at me I'm so scum. Lamiss would be basically saying, doing this is far too scummy, and I did it and brought it up, so I can't be scum.
Apogee get's a town read from me by process of elimination. I honestly really don't want to justify it for that reason but it is a solid reason in my eyes.
Agar is confirmed town. In terms of Lurking, Freddy and Gobble. In terms of LAMISS. Battle Mage and GeneralWu. There are 5 potential combinations of scum partners I can see in this by the way. The only one I don't see possible is Freddy + Gobble, both lurking, regardless of whether its accurate or not, or if they have justification for lurking. The more people that lurk, the worse the game state it, its not healthy for the game, and it overall makes the game less enjoyable in my opinion. However, I don't think there's logical scum practice for both to be lurking. Logical scum practice would be one being active one being inactive. Meaning there are 5 potential pairs.
Freddy + Battle Mage
Freddy + General Wu
Gobble + Battle Mage
Gobble + Battle Mage
General Wu + Battle Mage
It's important for me to say, out of the 4 individually, Battle Mage I'm least suspicious of. However the interaction between GeneralWu and BattleMage, considering how similar you could say both of them play, to me feels like they're attempting to distance themselves from eachother.

I will look for more posts which will let me narrow down the 5 potential scum pairs I have over the next little while.
Just before I so that. Dear Lord was there a need for spam on page 19?

UNVOTE: GeneralWu
I'm doing this, solely for a fresh slate and no other reason.

you've narrowed it down to 5 potential scumpairs, and 4 of them involve me as scum?

barely an improvement on sleepersoul

disappointed is not even the word...

As stated. One of them was a mindblank I meant to put Gobble + GeneralWu once but put Gobble + Battle Mage twice. I think yours are by far the least likely Battle Mage. However this scuffle between you and GeneralWu seems rather like an attempt at distancing for you to end up bussing. I don't think I'm right and that it is, but I don't want to ignore the option.

You've excluded the possibility of Apogee being scum, and I'm not sure why? Maybe you've fully explained it - I need to properly read the last couple pages.

But to be clear, I have very little doubt you're town, but I need you to be a better scumhunter than your predecessor. He sapped the freakin' life out of me.

[Battle Mage]

UNVOTE:

I'll wait until the replacement arrives

why would you back down? there were only two votes on apogee...is he someone special to you?

More complete posting tonight but just want to throw out that this is bad and what BM did is pretty common courtesy for a replacement.

I don't care too much for courtesy. It just buys me some more thinking time. And I agree Freddie's post is unnecessarily tetchy here.

The thing that bugs me mate, is the stagnant GWu wagon. It had 3 townies on it for ages, with only 4 to lynch.

Apogee promised to hammer, but stalled for ages.
Freddie said he would like to hammer, but didn't.

What does this mean?

Unless scumteam is GeneralWu - Gobbledygook, scum have basically forfeited a surefire win with Sleepersoul still in the game.

Need to give some thought to likely combinations here.

What is tetchy?

Also where did I say I would hammer? Did you misunderstand 921? I said I’d get to “this” as in the exchanges and the interaction...nothing about hammers!

I interpretted the below as an expression of your willingness to hammer - you were just working your way up to it. Tetchy means irritable; annoyed and a little petulant

On the other hand, I definitely don't want to sound like I am sheeping Agar here, but his read on the General seems to make a lot of sense (even if he is scum lying that he's mason)... I won't vote yet because I haven't finished reading Generals iso and also have my eye on Apogee. He talks a lot, and I don't have the evidence compiled yet but hes sus to me because his talking doesn't get us very far.

[Battle Mage]

Okay so reading through all the posts and doing my best to understand everything ended up taking around an hour unfortunately.
As a matter of policy there are 3 things I don't find town indicative, Lurking, Quickhammering, there may be another name for this but I'll just call it "LAMISS" Look at me I'm so scum. Lamiss would be basically saying, doing this is far too scummy, and I did it and brought it up, so I can't be scum.
Apogee get's a town read from me by process of elimination. I honestly really don't want to justify it for that reason but it is a solid reason in my eyes.
Agar is confirmed town. In terms of Lurking, Freddy and Gobble. In terms of LAMISS. Battle Mage and GeneralWu. There are 5 potential combinations of scum partners I can see in this by the way. The only one I don't see possible is Freddy + Gobble, both lurking, regardless of whether its accurate or not, or if they have justification for lurking. The more people that lurk, the worse the game state it, its not healthy for the game, and it overall makes the game less enjoyable in my opinion. However, I don't think there's logical scum practice for both to be lurking. Logical scum practice would be one being active one being inactive. Meaning there are 5 potential pairs.
Freddy + Battle Mage
Freddy + General Wu
Gobble + Battle Mage
Gobble + Battle Mage
General Wu + Battle Mage
It's important for me to say, out of the 4 individually, Battle Mage I'm least suspicious of. However the interaction between GeneralWu and BattleMage, considering how similar you could say both of them play, to me feels like they're attempting to distance themselves from eachother.

I will look for more posts which will let me narrow down the 5 potential scum pairs I have over the next little while.
Just before I so that. Dear Lord was there a need for spam on page 19?

UNVOTE: GeneralWu
I'm doing this, solely for a fresh slate and no other reason.

I'll engage properly with this.

I don't follow your Apogee-conftown - please tell me you have something really robust behind this?? If you don't, my advice would be not to limit your horizons so early (your first post?).

If you did have only 4 suspects (as I do), there's like 6 possible combinations anyway? and you've narrowed it down to 5 by excluding Freddie-Gobbles because they are both lurking? I would caution you on this too - in my last completed newbie game, the 2 scum were the 2 lurkiest players (and we won by Day 2). On the contrary to your reasoning, I've tend to find that lurking in scumteams is contagious. If you're in a scumpair and your partner is doing fk all, your motivation, and sometimes confidence, can wane and you get lazy too.

I do at least respect the fact you've given this some proper thought, even if I'm not entirely convinced your reasoning is right.

[Battle Mage]

Pressure has been applied to both Freddie and GWu today. Neither has responded in a town manner. Both had lackluster D1 presences for different reasons. Can we just lynch one of them already? We've discussed this shit to the death.

easy tiger, just catching up and then I'm game

[Battle Mage]

Okay so reading through all the posts and doing my best to understand everything ended up taking around an hour unfortunately.
As a matter of policy there are 3 things I don't find town indicative, Lurking, Quickhammering, there may be another name for this but I'll just call it "LAMISS" Look at me I'm so scum. Lamiss would be basically saying, doing this is far too scummy, and I did it and brought it up, so I can't be scum.
Apogee get's a town read from me by process of elimination. I honestly really don't want to justify it for that reason but it is a solid reason in my eyes.
Agar is confirmed town. In terms of Lurking, Freddy and Gobble. In terms of LAMISS. Battle Mage and GeneralWu. There are 5 potential combinations of scum partners I can see in this by the way. The only one I don't see possible is Freddy + Gobble, both lurking, regardless of whether its accurate or not, or if they have justification for lurking. The more people that lurk, the worse the game state it, its not healthy for the game, and it overall makes the game less enjoyable in my opinion. However, I don't think there's logical scum practice for both to be lurking. Logical scum practice would be one being active one being inactive. Meaning there are 5 potential pairs.
Freddy + Battle Mage
Freddy + General Wu
Gobble + Battle Mage
Gobble + Battle Mage
General Wu + Battle Mage
It's important for me to say, out of the 4 individually, Battle Mage I'm least suspicious of. However the interaction between GeneralWu and BattleMage, considering how similar you could say both of them play, to me feels like they're attempting to distance themselves from eachother.

I will look for more posts which will let me narrow down the 5 potential scum pairs I have over the next little while.
Just before I so that. Dear Lord was there a need for spam on page 19?

UNVOTE: GeneralWu
I'm doing this, solely for a fresh slate and no other reason.

you've narrowed it down to 5 potential scumpairs, and 4 of them involve me as scum?

barely an improvement on sleepersoul

disappointed is not even the word...

As stated. One of them was a mindblank I meant to put Gobble + GeneralWu once but put Gobble + Battle Mage twice. I think yours are by far the least likely Battle Mage. However this scuffle between you and GeneralWu seems rather like an attempt at distancing for you to end up bussing. I don't think I'm right and that it is, but I don't want to ignore the option.

If I was scum (I'm not), I don't think GeneralWu would be high on my list of partners? I had every opportunity to lynch somebody other than him earlier today - why would I have chosen to draw out the day and even try and pressure everyone to hammer him? It's kamikaze and just a bit of a dick move. Spoiler: if I was scum with a newbie, I'm not going to bus them

for no reason

. I'm nicer than that.

I think if I was scum in this game, it would be one of the easiest wins of my mafia career

[Battle Mage]

JamSV replaces SleeperSoul.
Searching for a replacement for gobbledygook.

Votecount 2.08

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, JamSV

Freddiethelady (2) -

gobbledygook, Apogee

JamSV (1) -

GeneralWu

Not Voting (2) -

Battle Mage, Freddiethelady

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to Eliminate.

The deadline for Day 2 is paused at 2 days until all slots are filled.

@BM

Anything in particular stand out to you about this vote count?

My first thought was Sleepers replacement also wants to lynch GWu - the weight of town opinion is very much in favour of that way.

Or are you referring to the "Eliminate" bit? That's just new site policy.

I won't hold out any longer VOTE: GeneralWu - dealer's choice!

[Battle Mage]

Okay so reading through all the posts and doing my best to understand everything ended up taking around an hour unfortunately.
As a matter of policy there are 3 things I don't find town indicative, Lurking, Quickhammering, there may be another name for this but I'll just call it "LAMISS" Look at me I'm so scum. Lamiss would be basically saying, doing this is far too scummy, and I did it and brought it up, so I can't be scum.
Apogee get's a town read from me by process of elimination. I honestly really don't want to justify it for that reason but it is a solid reason in my eyes.
Agar is confirmed town. In terms of Lurking, Freddy and Gobble. In terms of LAMISS. Battle Mage and GeneralWu. There are 5 potential combinations of scum partners I can see in this by the way. The only one I don't see possible is Freddy + Gobble, both lurking, regardless of whether its accurate or not, or if they have justification for lurking. The more people that lurk, the worse the game state it, its not healthy for the game, and it overall makes the game less enjoyable in my opinion. However, I don't think there's logical scum practice for both to be lurking. Logical scum practice would be one being active one being inactive. Meaning there are 5 potential pairs.
Freddy + Battle Mage
Freddy + General Wu
Gobble + Battle Mage
Gobble + Battle Mage
General Wu + Battle Mage
It's important for me to say, out of the 4 individually, Battle Mage I'm least suspicious of. However the interaction between GeneralWu and BattleMage, considering how similar you could say both of them play, to me feels like they're attempting to distance themselves from eachother.

I will look for more posts which will let me narrow down the 5 potential scum pairs I have over the next little while.
Just before I so that. Dear Lord was there a need for spam on page 19?

UNVOTE: GeneralWu
I'm doing this, solely for a fresh slate and no other reason.

you've narrowed it down to 5 potential scumpairs, and 4 of them involve me as scum?

barely an improvement on sleepersoul

disappointed is not even the word...

As stated. One of them was a mindblank I meant to put Gobble + GeneralWu once but put Gobble + Battle Mage twice. I think yours are by far the least likely Battle Mage. However this scuffle between you and GeneralWu seems rather like an attempt at distancing for you to end up bussing. I don't think I'm right and that it is, but I don't want to ignore the option.

You've excluded the possibility of Apogee being scum, and I'm not sure why? Maybe you've fully explained it - I need to properly read the last couple pages.

But to be clear, I have very little doubt you're town, but I need you to be a better scumhunter than your predecessor. He sapped the freakin' life out of me.

When I made the post this morning I read over 43 pages in a row, with my only knowledge being roles of 3 people. It'll be a bit awkward for me to sort through all 43 and explain in detail but if you really want me to just ask.

...It's important, so obviously I want you to. After today, I'll have a suspect pool of 3, with 1 or 2 scum in it. Apogee is in my suspect pool, so if you have a good reason to clear them, this game becomes real easy. If you don't, then the last thing I want is you being blind to the option of him being scum.

By the way, AGar has conftowned me, so you can safely remove me from your pool.

[Battle Mage]

Pressure has been applied to both Freddie and GWu today. Neither has responded in a town manner. Both had lackluster D1 presences for different reasons. Can we just lynch one of them already? We've discussed this shit to the death.

Freddie's D1 was perfectly fine. The loss of Votato has obviously hit him hard on D2. Remorse?

[Battle Mage]

you don't think freddie-scum, who has been stuck with a complete lurker SE for a partner, would be keen to get someone new and active in that slot?

I'm not sure i follow the rest of your post. I think it's odd that Freddie did lurk as much as she did on Day 2. Day 1 looked good, and then she just didnt seem to care anymore. Could it be because she saw GG doing it and getting away with it, and thought "this is the way to do it"? I think that's possible.

[Battle Mage]

ah sorry, that was to Jam

[Battle Mage]

By the way, AGar has conftowned me, so you can safely remove me from your pool.

Eh I PoE'd you out because the only logical buddy I saw was Sleeper who I also PoE'd out, and that level of scum theater would be blatantly fucking ridiculous.

Just say you conftowned me - it'll make my life a little easier tomorrow

[Battle Mage]

JamSV replaces SleeperSoul.
Searching for a replacement for gobbledygook.

Votecount 2.08

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, JamSV

Freddiethelady (2) -

gobbledygook, Apogee

JamSV (1) -

GeneralWu

Not Voting (2) -

Battle Mage, Freddiethelady

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to Eliminate.

The deadline for Day 2 is paused at 2 days until all slots are filled.

@BM

Anything in particular stand out to you about this vote count?

My first thought was Sleepers replacement also wants to lynch GWu - the weight of town opinion is very much in favour of that way.

Or are you referring to the "Eliminate" bit? That's just new site policy.

I won't hold out any longer VOTE: GeneralWu - dealer's choice!

Nah, I know about the new site policy.

My focus was on the positioning of GWu and Freddie's votes not being on each other, and instead on Jam and not voting, respectively. That late in D2, makes me feel very comfortable with a flip on either. Very confident.

Yeah I guess. But man, my heart says Apogee is scum. And my conscience says letting GG lurk to a scum win is more than I can bear.

This is hard!

[Battle Mage]

JamSV replaces SleeperSoul.
Searching for a replacement for gobbledygook.

Votecount 2.08

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, JamSV

Freddiethelady (2) -

gobbledygook, Apogee

JamSV (1) -

GeneralWu

Not Voting (2) -

Battle Mage, Freddiethelady

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to Eliminate.

The deadline for Day 2 is paused at 2 days until all slots are filled.

@BM

Anything in particular stand out to you about this vote count?

My first thought was Sleepers replacement also wants to lynch GWu - the weight of town opinion is very much in favour of that way.

Or are you referring to the "Eliminate" bit? That's just new site policy.

I won't hold out any longer VOTE: GeneralWu - dealer's choice!

Nah, I know about the new site policy.

My focus was on the positioning of GWu and Freddie's votes not being on each other, and instead on Jam and not voting, respectively. That late in D2, makes me feel very comfortable with a flip on either. Very confident.

he's not my scumbuddy.

VOTE: GeneralWu

ah geeze...I don't feel great about this.

[Battle Mage]

well, goodnight folks. AGar - good playin' with ya

[Battle Mage]

it's hard to see a world where a townflip here doesn't result in a freddie lynch tomorrow

[Battle Mage]

you don't think freddie-scum, who has been stuck with a complete lurker SE for a partner, would be keen to get someone new and active in that slot?

I'm not sure i follow the rest of your post. I think it's odd that Freddie did lurk as much as she did on Day 2. Day 1 looked good, and then she just didnt seem to care anymore. Could it be because she saw GG doing it and getting away with it, and thought "this is the way to do it"? I think that's possible.

not being active is bad for town, I totally get that. but the BM/sleeper interactions were so annoying that I didn't insert myself when I had the time. Would it be helpful to have my real life explanation for why I wasn't active? Votato can confirm my story when the game is over - I won't be lurking anymore.

yeah shoot. I'm more likely to believe it is votato doesn't verify it, tbh

[Battle Mage]

JamSV replaces SleeperSoul.
Searching for a replacement for gobbledygook.

Votecount 2.08

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, JamSV

Freddiethelady (2) -

gobbledygook, Apogee

JamSV (1) -

GeneralWu

Not Voting (2) -

Battle Mage, Freddiethelady

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to Eliminate.

The deadline for Day 2 is paused at 2 days until all slots are filled.

@BM

Anything in particular stand out to you about this vote count?

My first thought was Sleepers replacement also wants to lynch GWu - the weight of town opinion is very much in favour of that way.

Or are you referring to the "Eliminate" bit? That's just new site policy.

I won't hold out any longer VOTE: GeneralWu - dealer's choice!

Nah, I know about the new site policy.

My focus was on the positioning of GWu and Freddie's votes not being on each other, and instead on Jam and not voting, respectively. That late in D2, makes me feel very comfortable with a flip on either. Very confident.

he's not my scumbuddy.

VOTE: GeneralWu

Look at me. I'm not his scum partner!
Look I can prove it!
- votes GeneralWu

I stand by this entirely, considering one of my first posts in this game mentioned it. LAMISS. Look at me I'm so scum. (Once again if there is an actual acronym for what I'm trying to explain do tell me). This play is such a bad play that Freddy can't be scum. That is the idea being portrayed by her post.
Freddy confirmed scum. To be honest, after this post, I wish any of you luck changing my mind on this. I want to see Freddy walk the plank! (GeneralWu first though)

I share your conclusion, but not how you reached it. I don't think this is some deliberate mastermind plan by Freddie-scum to look so scummy she can't be scum. It's just straight up scummy, simple as that. I think it makes Freddie the default lynch IF GWu is town. If GWu is scum, I'd give it a little more thought.

[Battle Mage]

can you guys stop spamming up the thread? geez...

[Battle Mage]

I'm V/LA for 48 hours.

Appreciate if people can avoid eliminating anyone before then.

[Battle Mage]

my first thought is I want dsjstr to do something to justify his continued existence in this game. A slot with 2 bonafide lurkers shouldn't be making it to endgame in my view.

in terms of today's lynch, i do need to go back and re-read a little.

we're in a good position though!

[Battle Mage]

i dont care massively about the NK spec, as I think most scum just kill AGar here. However, in the spirit of helping the newbies, I'd advise that it could be perfectly reasonable NOT to kill AGar, if for instance his reads were off and he could help drive a mislynch or 2 as town leader. In this game, I could have seen an argument for NKing me, given I'm basically unanimously town-read, and annoying as hell, and scum need 2 mislynches from a narrow pool with me alive. But there's lots of variables to consider. The main message is - always think carefully about your night actions.

[Battle Mage]

I've re-read GeneralWu's ISO here, and also his completed scumgame. In his scumgame, in which he claims he played really badly, he did not bus at all, nor did he really openly defend his partner. He just kind of tried to deflect attention away from him. This is definitely not characteristic of his behaviour towards Apogee here, who he has buddied shamelessly and without explanation, nor GG who he initially defended, but then hit with some killer shade. It would fit with Freddie-scum

Logic seems to suggest Freddie-scum here, but the increased libido from Apogee makes me nervous. Apogee would need consecutive mislynches against djstjr and freddie to win this game. It feels like he's setting himself up to do just that.

I still need to read the posts from today so far, but my initial thoughts are that my heart is screaming for an Apogee-elimination. And I think I'm resigning myself to the fact that if GG was scum, he only gets a tainted victory after his lurky turkey performance.

[Battle Mage]

just feels like apogee is the informed minority here. he seems to know I'm town... gaddammit

[Battle Mage]

Actually BM's point made me reread and suddenly I'm considering Gobbles as partner again his interactions with GeneralWu are not a great look and yeah time to see what dsjstr does today

yeah this doesn't sit well with me. And I can see that djstr has taken a similar line (ruling out a lynch on JamSV). This makes me less inclined to lynch freddie today.

I'll re-read later, happy with my vote until then.

So I guess you've reread everything now, and you're still happy with your vote?

….I forgot I promised to re-read.

But I might vote AGar now if his next post isn't good. Otherwise, happy to stick with his loyal advocate, votato.

If anyone is curious about what I meant when I said I noticed someone was open about votato and Agars relationship it was this post.

Haha! I didn't even remember that! I'm a genius....knew they were masons!

[Battle Mage]

also, with a GWu-scumflip, I'm even more curious about the Votato NK. I don't think Freddie is choosing the NK in that scumpair, so clearly not due to her relationship with votato. Apogee on the other hand, I could see as the dominant partner, with a legit reason, which I think he slipped earlier, for killing Vot.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Apogee

Ok it's my day today, and we're going with my gut read. If Apogee flips town, I think everyone can consensus-lynch Freddie tomorrow. I'm more wary of leaving Apogee alive today.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Apogee

Ok it's my day today, and we're going with my gut read. If Apogee flips town, I think everyone can consensus-lynch Freddie tomorrow. I'm more wary of leaving Apogee alive today.

I'm able to get behind this
UNVOTE: FreddieUNVOTE:
VOTE: Apogee
Plus with his kill on AGar and being the only one to defend it with everything, I feel like he thought me treating it as a bad play was an attack on him.

Yep I'm with ya!

[Battle Mage]

you really weren't keen to bus generalwu yesterday. it was odd that, despite agreeing to hammer, you...never voted for him in the end. I could interpret that as being a reluctance to bus because the opportunity for getting major credit from it had already gone. You had missed the boat.

[Battle Mage]

yeah but it's freddie innit. i've played with freddie before, i know she can look scummy as hell when she's town.

[Battle Mage]

like I said to GWu yesterday, it's not personal mate! I've toiled over it, but I really want to lynch you today as I think if you're scum you might be good enough to win it in LyLo. I think if Freddie is the last scum, it's inconsequential as she will be lynched tomorrow. and we have to hope I was wrong about GG all along. it's virtually PoE at this stage.

[Battle Mage]

Votecount 3.02

Apogee (2) -

Battle Mage, JamSV

Freddiethelady (1) -

Freddiethelady

Not Voting (2) -

dsjstr, Apogee

With 5 players alive it takes 3 votes to eliminate.

The deadline for Day 3 is in (expired on 2020-07-11 00:15:00).

Hold up, Freddie is self-voting???

[Battle Mage]

like I said to GWu yesterday, it's not personal mate! I've toiled over it, but I really want to lynch you today as I think if you're scum you might be good enough to win it in LyLo. I think if Freddie is the last scum, it's inconsequential as she will be lynched tomorrow. and we have to hope I was wrong about GG all along. it's virtually PoE at this stage.

Well in my only scumgame (offsite) I did win in lylo so thanks I guess. Albeit it was because one dude snapvoted a town in his first post of the day (with votes locked)

I would really prefer to keep my streak of not being voted off by town though so I'm going to battle you on this.

battle is what i do!

[Battle Mage]

no disrespect to dsjstr, but a pretty dirty victory because of GG's play, or lack thereof.

i've said my piece in the dead thread, won't repeat here. Think the mistake was not lynching GG Day 1, as after that, there was always somebody else to prioritise. My learning point AGAIN is to always always always punish lurkers.

i enjoyed game though, with the exception of the sleepersoul stuff which was...yeah.

[Battle Mage]

At this point, I just want Freddie to lose, lurkers ruin games. VOTE: Freddie

and the lurkiest lurker wins. not your fault though dude, i'm glad you replaced in to even give us a chance in ExLo.

[Battle Mage]

gobbledygook, please convince me you're town. At the moment, in my heart, I just feel that you aren't trying at all, and couldn't care less about lynching scum here. And I've seen you as town, and you did actually try really hard. I also know you're a better player than coming into a newbie game as an SE and sheeping votato.

I am saving this post to my iso to comment post game to PM you. My play here has nothing to do with my alignment (you can see in the other Fogey what I mean if you doubt me).

I do not want to talk about why I am playing the way I am playing in the Newbie queue specifically. I don’t want to taint their perceptions of this site or what is good play.

pm me too

yes i want this.

[Battle Mage]

AGar played pretty well. He was causing quite a lot of trouble for me lol

How do you guys think I did this game?

*grumble grumble*

[Battle Mage]

My learning point AGAIN is to always always always punish lurkers.

I mean, outside of Road to Rome this doesn't pay off pretty much ever but y'know.

Not entirely true, although I was actually only thinking newbies with that statement!

[Battle Mage]

yeah, you were a lot better for sure. I think you played pretty well D1, but then real life made you more inactive D2. And since GWu was being pressured, people might have felt that your absence was a convenient one. Well nothing you can do about it.

yeah that's right, unfortunately.