Newbie 2104 | Wikipedia Articles | Game Over!

[faüstiv]

VOTE: No Lynch

[faüstiv]

VOTE: No Lynch

fyi we aren't allowed to use the word "lynch" anymore

why that vote?

i'm a pacifist

[faüstiv]

check to see if it was for this game. should be a link to the game thread in the mod's email.

[faüstiv]

VOTE: Sterling

[faüstiv]

wait, though... actually follow me on this:

"I got a role PM with a name that isn't mine"

*votes that name*

e.g. Role PM received by Sterling, which they didn't realize was also theirs, or for their slot's predecessor, made them vote their predecessor's slot

Sterling got a scum role PM

VOTE: Sterling

I don't think it's a scumslip, but Sterling's lack of reaction to your accusation is concerning me.

Also I think Maestro is town based on the above.

[faüstiv]

just felt like voting no one

[faüstiv]

what's your experience with mafia steampunk? as in what variants have you played and on what format (face-to-face, forum, epicmafia/town of salem etc.)

[faüstiv]

well I used to play Town of Salem and I've played on the eurobricks forum once, also have a few game of camp cadaver under my belt, and I used to play amongus before it stopped working for me, why do you ask?

feel it's important information in terms of trying to sort you as i currently have my vote on you and you do come across as an inexperienced player (and don't take offense to that as none is intended, we all gotta start somewhere).

[faüstiv]

I think sterling's reaction to maestro feels over the top but can just aseasily come from a newer player who's not used to people making social reads getting upset they'e being accused so strongly.

VOTE: faustiv

I do think trying to string up sterling for a "lack of reaction" to Maestro's scumslip accusation feels opportunist - it had been less than an hour since Maestro posted it and sterling was clearly still catching up. On some other site's there's a higher emphasis on real time interaction but on here that amount of time lag isn't really a big deal and him trying to act like it was incriminating doesn't sit right with me. I saw scum use a similar argument in a recent game (although they were actually bussing their buddy in that instance). Then when sterling did come back and provided an explanation I thought was eminently reasonable, faustiv didn't really comment on it, which suggests to me he wasn't that concerned with getting a response in the first place and was just looking for a target to push.

i mean sterling's reaction is the first thing that pinged me this game, so naturally i'm going to push that slot. in terms of sterling's response, i'm still unsure of his alignment. i'm just concerned that he didn't defend himself as vehemently as i would expect from a town player given maestro's reasoning behind his vote. i'm happy with where my vote lies at the time being.

[faüstiv]

when do you consider RVS to be over? because I'm just not as good at getting reads due to the way the game is played on amongus and Town of Salem so really I don't have a good reason to vote anyone, Also isn't it your job to help new players out? instead you just started a bandwagon on me due to a confusion, also what about my confused comments did you glanced that I had a private thread? because the player list haven't been updated when I first posted. you know, trying to start a bangwagon on a new and confused player is pretty sus to me therefore VOTE: Maestro

what do you mean by private thread?

[faüstiv]

UNVOTE:

[faüstiv]

Anyway, this was my scumread from the opening
VOTE: TheftOfARose

eh, i could see it, but i've not sorted him yet as i wasn't sure if that was just his style of posting or not. will need to see more content from him.

[faüstiv]

interesting. I do have some initial reads which I will explain in due course, but I'm not posting them until I see some content from Rockhopper.

[faüstiv]

Anyway, this was my scumread from the opening
VOTE: TheftOfARose

eh, i could see it, but i've not sorted him yet as i wasn't sure if that was just his style of posting or not. will need to see more content from him.

Yeah, I was hoping they'd have posted again by now too, but I gave it a day and figured I may as well try to advance the game at this point.

yeah, though it is the weekend so I'll give him a pass.

[faüstiv]

Anyway, this was my scumread from the opening
VOTE: TheftOfARose

eh, i could see it, but i've not sorted him yet as i wasn't sure if that was just his style of posting or not. will need to see more content from him.

Yeah, I was hoping they'd have posted again by now too, but I gave it a day and figured I may as well try to advance the game at this point.

yeah, though it is the weekend so I'll give him a pass.

[faüstiv]

Just a little question for you, was the 'no elimination' vote in any way directed as a way to troll me? Won't hold it against you if it was, just it was always a pet hate of mine to see people waste mis-elims* in chat mafia haha.

*will take me a while to get used to saying it that way

nah, I no-voted to gauge reactions.

[faüstiv]

gained naff all mate, but was worth a go.

[faüstiv]

I’ll explain my read on maestro in detail later on as I’m on phone at the moment. I also believe Thryanth’s vote puts me on L-2 just for everyone’s information.

[faüstiv]

Don’t really see how I’m a ‘sleeper’ as I’ve been actively participating throughout. As I’ve said previously, I’m not committing to a readlist until I’ve seen contributions from Rockhopper’s slot.

What I will say though is that I have two strong townreads and one decent scumread so far. I’ll explain these particular reads later on when I’m at a PC.

[faüstiv]

Yeah, Faust IS on E-2. I really don't know how to feel about that. oh and also because I remembered my predecessor voted you,
UNVOTE: Faust

Calling sterling a dumbass is also a bit rude don’t you think? He’s doing a decent job.

[faüstiv]

doing his bit to assist the town.

[faüstiv]

hi

Steampunk is town. I did want to push on him to get more of a feel for his slot, but his playstyle is more in line with newbie town rather than newbie scum. Steampunk is clearly not considering the content of his posts, which has lead to confusion around his role PM in #22 and the private thread in #80. His haphazard voting style is also in line with newbie-town rather than newbie-scum. From experience, newbie scum are more likely to be more tepid and reserved and try and resist placing votes (especially ones controversial in the gamestate such as the Maestro vote who is a widely townread player) as they don't want to fall under suspicion. Whilst Steampunk's reasons for his votes don't make much sense (imo), the fact that he

is

throwing votes around on a whim suggests that he's not overly concerned on what he posts and whether his posts are coming off as scummy. I also believe that if Sterling is mafia, then his partner can only be Fennec (TheftOFARose) or Rockhopper as I believe everyone else in the game would have at least coached him on how to play the day as mafia to avoid arousing suspicion. Theft, being a new player himself and Rockhopper being inactive are the only two possibiliites I have for his partner with the above logic in mind. Therefore, with this in mind, coupled with me believing that Steampunk is town, means that he should be immune from today's vote as we don't gain a lot of information from his elimination.


My townread on Maestro mainly comes from sharing a similar thought processs on the gamestate as I did. I was concerned with Catboi's post regarding meta which Maestro highlights in #15 and #38 is also a valid point as I couldn't see anything particularly scummy prior to kkgiri's post where he announces that he has a scumread. #44, #45, #46 reads like a natural progression on a read and the posts are tonally quite town. Generally, when you share the same thought process and share the same reactions to factors within the gamestate, then it indicates that those two people are of the same alignment. I know I am town so based on this, I am inclined to believe that Maestro is also indeed town.

[faüstiv]

My primary FOS is on catboi.

As stated by Maestro, catboi openly claiming that he changes his meta makes looking at his previous town/scum games moot because nothing useful can be deciphered and any argument you could make based off of his behaviour in a previous game can be argued away.

Catboi's initial posts read as if he's trying to appear reasonable and not step on any toes:

#11:

Hi Thynhith! Sorry about miselimming you last time we played together >_>

I'm glad to see you're back, though! Hopefully things go better this time.

Why do you see that post as "high-effort"?

#18:

I don't think I've ever played with Maestro. Granted, I've forgotten more games than most people have played, but the name doesn't ring any bells.

Ah, thought the vote was at least semi-serious and wanted to pry at your reasoning because I didn't actually believe there was a lot of "thought" put into that post.

I don't mind you coming at me like this though.

Then in #51 he justifies his vote on Ceejay with the below:

It's a very thin thing but in my experience scum are more likely to make that type of RVS post where it's "short statement"/vote, trying to do just enough to blend in while not getting directly involved, didn't really interact with other people.

It could turn out to be absolutely nothing of course, but it's RVS.

He claims his vote on Ceejay is a legitimate vote but uses an excuse "could be nothing, it's RVS" to give himself justification to jump off his wagon.

#81 irks me, not because of the vote, but because I was a scumread player at the time. This isn't so bad in isolation, but he then jumps on Steampunk based on my reasoning, which I found perculiar at the time. His reasoning for agreeing with me seems flimsy and his progression on the Steampunk read seems kind of off. Steampunk had a wagon forming him on that point and whilst catboi was tiptoeing around the issue and asking Steampunk questions, he never felt really committed to the scumread until he placed his vote on him and I don't think the reason behind the read is super strong. Sterling's ambiguous explanation behind the role PM thing also gives scum a good opening to perhaps misrepresent him and get a bandwagon on him and personally, I think catboi's behaviour is that of a player who is looking for mislynches and not scum, therefore:

VOTE: catboi

[faüstiv]

Or rather you specifically should vote Sterling for now, Faust, then I will be happy to reevaluate catboi later

i'd rather you evaluate him now tbh

[faüstiv]

Steampunk is town. I did want to push on him to get more of a feel for his slot, but his playstyle is more in line with newbie town rather than newbie scum. Steampunk is clearly not considering the content of his posts, which has lead to confusion around his role PM in #22 and the private thread in #80. His haphazard voting style is also in line with newbie-town rather than newbie-scum. From experience, newbie scum are more likely to be more tepid and reserved and try and resist placing votes (especially ones controversial in the gamestate such as the Maestro vote who is a widely townread player) as they don't want to fall under suspicion. Whilst Steampunk's reasons for his votes don't make much sense (imo), the fact that he is throwing votes around on a whim suggests that he's not overly concerned on what he posts and whether his posts are coming off as scummy. I also believe that if Sterling is mafia, then his partner can only be Fennec (TheftOFARose) or Rockhopper as I believe everyone else in the game would have at least coached him on how to play the day as mafia to avoid arousing suspicion.

Theft, being a new player himself and Rockhopper being inactive are the only two possibiliites I have for his partner with the above logic in mind. Therefore, with this in mind, coupled with me believing that Steampunk is town, means that he should be immune from today's vote as we don't gain a lot of information from his elimination.

While I can see where you're coming from with this read, I don't think the logic holds up. The thing s while yo view the maestro vote as contrversial it's basically an OMGUS vote, which newbie scum are pretty prone to as well, and beyond that he's not actually made any votes he actually meant anything by. Also, your theory about "he'd be coached more" doesn't really mesh with reality - and you should know, you've been scum in newbie games before. From having played in a lot of newbie games and modded a couple, scum usually...just don't talk to each other that much. You're imagining a greater degree of planning than most scumteam in newbie games actually put iin. Lastly, your final point falls apart for me - If you believe sterling's only possible partners are the slots that were inactive, then

he still has viable partners

. From my point of view I have absolutely no reason to clear him based on that. If he actually flipped scum, wouldn't you then have information on who his partners are? If you just stop and say you think he's town, full stop, that's fine to argue, but I don't like the "no information" defense. Too often that leads to people not killing scummy players for being scummy as they instead go for hero eliminations.


Additionally, as it concerns your theory of sterling's potential teammates, Here is my current view of the game, in short:

I believe Maestro is town who is looking for scum.
I believe kirigiri is town who is looking for scum.
I believe Thynhith is probably town who is looking for scum
I believe you are probably town who is looking for scum but is mistaken (or you've fooled me, in which case, congratulations)

You might say "is looking for scum" is a low bar, but in newbie games thinking about the game on a basic level will usually work. For newer players it's

usually

easier to figure out when they're town because the genuineness shines through. I have a ~fairly decent track record of locating scum in newbie games in part by identifying who is obvious town. I can elaborate on these reads but I feel pretty good about them right now and if I'm right on all my townreads then the game is basically already won.


Now, maybe it's not sterling who scum, and the scum are within ceejay/fennec/rockhopper. That's totally possible! But at that moment in time I felt my vote was most useful in pressuring sterling. Fennec had only just replaced in. ceejay's posts so far have been very "whatever" but I figured I'd give him a little more time. I thought sterling was a little awkward in response to maestro and I actually feel like a townie would have protested their innocence a little more strongly.

Sure, it's all speculation and I accept that the logic isn't flawless, but I think it's largely on point.

Based on my experience of being scum in forum mafia, there is at least a bit of interaction at the start of the game where the two mafia strategize etc. No mafia chatroom is going to be completely quiet. Looking at the playerbase:

me/kk would not let Steampunk make the first couple of posts that he made. Sure, you could argue that if Steampunk is mafia, he could have made that initial post without guidsnce, but Steampunk replaced into the game at gamestart and didn't post in the thread for a number of hours after the game began. We also would have coached Steampunk at some point during the game (he is now aware that threads exist after all) I'm also inclined to believe that Maestro/Catboi would also have coached Steampunk to not react and post in the way he is currently posting.

Thrayanth/ceejay could theoretically be his parter but again, I believe both members would have coached Steampunk at some stage. Steampunk clearly hasn't been coached at any point during this game and now that he knows a mafia thread is a thing, why

wouldn't

the partner at least advise him on how to act, how to blend in etc. seeing as his playstyle has not changed from his first post to his latest. Steampunk's haphazard, brazen, all guns blazing approach would also not happen under the guidance of an experienced partner.

Yes, he could make that initial post as scum, but to act the way he's acted all game and not have an experienced player alongside him? I find it hard to believe. It's not as if Steampunk is expendable either since we could potentially have a cop, tracker or masons depending on the setup. Mafia know that at least one of these roles is a possibility in this game and Mafia are very unlikely to bus their partner day 1 if they can help it.

You might say "is looking for scum" is a low bar, but in newbie games thinking about the game on a basic level will usually work. For newer players it's

usually

easier to figure out when they're town because the genuineness shines through. I have a ~fairly decent track record of locating scum in newbie games in part by identifying who is obvious town. I can elaborate on these reads but I feel pretty good about them right now and if I'm right on all my townreads then the game is basically already won.

This is speculative. You even said yourself that players alter their playsyles game by game.

I believe Maestro is town who is looking for scum.
I believe kirigiri is town who is looking for scum.
I believe Thynhith is probably town who is looking for scum
I believe you are probably town who is looking for scum but is mistaken (or you've fooled me, in which case, congratulations)

I would like to see you elaborate on these reads as any scum can 'scumhunt'.

[faüstiv]

Bth of those posts are addressed to a singular player - Thynhith. The first one is me apologizing for mis-eliminating him on Day 1 in our last game. I felt incredibly bad for doing so because I had initially townread him and then second guessed it, and he didn't play again after that, so I thought it might have made him leave the site entirely. Me greeting the only player in the game I've played with before is not "trying to appear reasonable and not step on any toes".

Secondly, on that page, Thynhith tried to call me out for my intro. I actually thought it was towny for him to do so, for reasons I've gone into. Shows a little bit of pattern recognition and a scumhuntin mindset, and I think he'd be less likely to try to push me here. I don't think it's unreasonable of to think my response there could be scum motivated - I probably wouldn't want to push back too strongly on Thyn if I was scum. But the thing is, I'm town and I don't think Thyn had scum motivation in attacking me. So you need to tell me - why does that post make you think specifically that I as scum trying not to "step on any toes"? Why ca't I be town who is townreading Thynhith?

It's not in relation to Thryinth specifically and I don't really care about any previous games you've played with him. The tone came across as someone who is trying to appear reasonable and not try to create any sort of 'controversy' as I stated in my post:

I don't think I've ever played with Maestro. Granted, I've forgotten more games than most people have played, but the name doesn't ring any bells.

Ah, thought the vote was at least semi-serious and wanted to pry at your reasoning because I didn't actually believe there was a lot of "thought" put into that post.

I don't mind you coming at me like this though.

It's a line that pinged me, hence why I brought it up. Scum will try to look reasonable and make out that they're not afraid to be scrutinized to gain town trust.

[faüstiv]

Then in #51 he justifies his vote on Ceejay with the below:

It's a very thin thing but in my experience scum are more likely to make that type of RVS post where it's "short statement"/vote, trying to do just enough to blend in while not getting directly involved, didn't really interact with other people.

It could turn out to be absolutely nothing of course, but it's RVS.

He claims his vote on Ceejay is a legitimate vote but uses an excuse "could be nothing, it's RVS" to give himself justification to jump off his wagon.

Yeah, so? It was a page 1 RVS vote where my reasons were incredibly weak. What's the big deal about having justification to jump off from an early vote? No one else at the time had struck me as scummier but a vote from page 1 is basically a dart throw. Like, yes - you are correct that I was allowing myself to move my vote off ceejay at a later point in time. But why is that

scummy

?

It's that comment about "it could be nothing, it's just RVS" which stood out. It gives scum an out to move onto other wagons as, if questioned, scum can just argue that it was just part of RVS as an excuse and use the post as evidence to back up their reasoning.

[faüstiv]

#81 irks me, not because of the vote, but because I was a scumread player at the time. This isn't so bad in isolation, but he then jumps on Steampunk based on my reasoning, which I found perculiar at the time. His reasoning for agreeing with me seems flimsy and his progression on the Steampunk read seems kind of off. Steampunk had a wagon forming him on that point and whilst catboi was tiptoeing around the issue and asking Steampunk questions, he never felt really committed to the scumread until he placed his vote on him and I don't think the reason behind the read is super strong. Sterling's ambiguous explanation behind the role PM thing also gives scum a good opening to perhaps misrepresent him and get a bandwagon on him and personally, I think catboi's behaviour is that of a player who is looking for mislynches and not scum, therefore:

VOTE: catboi

You're right that my explanation wasn't that strong. I got lazy in my reasoning rather than fully explaining myself. Thats my bad. But I explained it up above - I think Sterling has a high chance of being scum by POE and your arguments for townreading him don't do a whole lot for me. Is that a little bit clearer?

Fair enough I get that, but I'm not sure how you can PoE him at this stage of the game. As I say, I'd like to see you elaborate more on your townreads.

[faüstiv]

@kk

Thing is, he may be new to this particular site, but as he has mentioned, he is not new to online mafia, or even forum mafia specifically.
In fact, if we were to accept his justification for bringing up private mafia threads, then we also have to accept him being already familiar with forum mafia and its conventions.

I admit that I don't quite follow his rational for voting Maestro, but I don't really see it as a towntell, and not all scumtells relate to being overly self-conscious.

Yes he is, but he's clearly a new player and he highlights that he's not used to forum mafia and I think I can believe him. I'm honestly a bit concerned that so many players are focusing on Steampunk's supposed slip and not his actions past the slip which I think give a bigger indicator into his alignment than the supposed "scumslip" does.

I'm not sure that's true; Sterling came late into the game and as such, their mafia partner might not have had time to address them personally before they started posting in the main game thread, and even if they did (or had posted similar advice for the original player in the slot, who was also new), it's not certain that Sterling would have taken said advice on board.

We don't know, but there was ample time in between gamestart and Steampunk's initial post. I'm also questioning why his playstyle hasn't really changed over the course of the game and I believe that it;s either because he's town and doesn't care what he's posting or he's scum and has an inactive/inexperienced partner. Steampunk knows now that separate mafia threads are a thing, so why has no one had a word in his ear? I've addressed this in a response to catboi.

Basically, I think he's town and probability also suggests to me that he's town too. If we lynch him and he's town like I believe, then we don't really get much information from his lynch.

[faüstiv]

So I'm new to this site and all. But play ALL the time elsewhere on forums. This thing bugs me a bit.

"Think less when posting, nobody will get mad if you're slightly unclear, just answer questions and show genuine interest, but I will get annoyed by Day 2 if I can't get read on you just fyi"

Where I normally play, we have players who I can't read by D5 or D6. But then again a day lasts like 8 hours normally there. D2 seems a bit impatient to me?

Just fyi, D1 is 10 days and every game-day hence is 7 real days. So games can drag on for a looong time (but tend to speed up when we have more info). By the time D2 starts I have a good read on maybe half the players.
Anyway, welcome to the game! Looking forward to hearing fresh thoughts

Thanks, but i don't know how much help I'm gonna be. Other than wrapping my head around a single day here, being as long as an entire game where I normally play at. I largely play with the same core group of folks over and over so kind of know how everyone plays so that's a challenge too. Add in trying to learn a whole new set of terminology. and my long time stance that D1 is for excrements and giggles.

Gonna be a STEEP learning curve.

do you have any initial reads?

[faüstiv]

by the way, we need more votes. votes are the best tool for finding mafia.

[faüstiv]

I've been going over possible scum combinations in my head in case I'm barking up the wrong tree. Don't think if catboi is scum that any of Thyn, faust, Maestro or Sterling should be his partners - which brings me back to my question to faust as to what information we would get by voting him; I'd like an answer to that.


Also welcome to the game wingfan, glad to have the full complement at last.

Don't really get that logic. I agree that a steampunk/catboi team is very unlikely but I can't see anything to suggest that catboi/maestro or catboi/thryinth can't be a team. Thryinth has a vote on catboi but hasn't really been pushing the slot and Maestro has been wanting Steampunk offed most of the game. Their day interactions can easily be faked.

When I speak about information we would gain in terms of votes, I'm not always talking about whatever role catboi will flip. Through votes we can analyse voting patterns, wagon speed, reactions to being under pressure etc.

At this stage, we don't gain an awful lot if catboi is lynched and is town, but we will gain a lot by placing votes either on him or other players and putting pressure on those slots. We can then look at those voting patterns later down the line once we have confirmed player alignments. Ergo if catboi flips town, then we can analyse the wagon, same as if he flips scum we can review those who were perhaps hesitant to place a vote on him.

Not voting anyone and not putting pressure on slots only help scum.

[faüstiv]

In post 186, faüstiv wrote:
Bth of those posts are addressed to a singular player - Thynhith. The first one is me apologizing for mis-eliminating him on Day 1 in our last game. I felt incredibly bad for doing so because I had initially townread him and then second guessed it, and he didn't play again after that, so I thought it might have made him leave the site entirely. Me greeting the only player in the game I've played with before is not "trying to appear reasonable and not step on any toes".

Secondly, on that page, Thynhith tried to call me out for my intro. I actually thought it was towny for him to do so, for reasons I've gone into. Shows a little bit of pattern recognition and a scumhuntin mindset, and I think he'd be less likely to try to push me here. I don't think it's unreasonable of to think my response there could be scum motivated - I probably wouldn't want to push back too strongly on Thyn if I was scum. But the thing is, I'm town and I don't think Thyn had scum motivation in attacking me. So you need to tell me - why does that post make you think specifically that I as scum trying not to "step on any toes"? Why ca't I be town who is townreading Thynhith?


It's not in relation to Thryinth specifically and I don't really care about any previous games you've played with him. The tone came across as someone who is trying to appear reasonable and not try to create any sort of 'controversy' as I stated in my post:
I don't think I've ever played with Maestro. Granted, I've forgotten more games than most people have played, but the name doesn't ring any bells.

Ah, thought the vote was at least semi-serious and wanted to pry at your reasoning because I didn't actually believe there was a lot of "thought" put into that post. I don't mind you coming at me like this though.


It's a line that pinged me, hence why I brought it up. Scum will try to look reasonable and make out that they're not afraid to be scrutinized to gain town trust.

okay but why can't I be town saying that? you're not actually answering anything I'm asking you're just tunneled on an idea of what scum will do on page 1

You could be, I'm just highlighting something that pinged me. Sure, it's not 'strong evidence' and not a line that's directly indicative to a particular alignment, but it's something that caught my eye and so I felt I should question it. You claiming it to be 'tunnelling' seems like a bit of an overreaction to me.

lol why would someone not want to move onto other wagons from a vote on the first page of the game? are you suggesting everyone has to be glued to their vote? that's not how rvs works

i'm sorry this is the most ridiculous thing i've read all week

No, I was specifically highlighting the 'it's only RVS' line in that. I never suggested that players shouldn't move to other wagons, I was merely highlighting the fact that scum will put something in a vote like the 'it's only RVS' line so that they can jump onto other wagons without much heat coming to their slot because they can use that 'it was only RVS' as a defense. Again, not directly alignment indicative, but it's something I've see scum do often. That second line is again, a bit of an overreaction to what I've said whilst also misrepresenting what I've said. Part of your case on Fennec is his overreaction to being scrutinized, yet you now seem to be doing it.

In terms of your final post, I want to see more from thewingfan before I post a readlist. He hasn't really done anything as of yet.

[faüstiv]

oh, and on ceejay too - i literally forgot he was in the game when i was writing that post

I usually like this because there is less pressure on me but this almost feels weird.

I wasn't included in any reads lists so far and I haven't interacted with anybody either since Thynhith.

No complaints though.

out readlist

[faüstiv]

I just don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this point, because I'm telling you in my experience almost no mafia teams are that coordinated

My experience is different to yours, you can look at the scumchat of the one scumgame I've played on this site for example. Having read other scumchats from other games (out of boredom more than anything) then I've seen that there is at

least

some co-ordination in there. That said, it is always going to be a game-by-game basis, but I just don't see why no one wouldn't have had a word in Steampunk's ear at some point during the game, particularly the players I've stated are unlikely to be teamed with him.

For Maestro I just mainly don't believe the scumslip case on sterling comes from scum. The only thing I could ding him for is falling off a bit after that initial burst but that wouldn't be fair when pretty much everyone has.
kkirigiri has been probably the most analytical poster out of everyone. 105, 135, 136, and 153 all strike me as sincere efforts at analyzing the game from a newer player - she's prodding at people, investigating their wording, getting suspicious of people. For a newer player this is basically sufficient for a townread.
thynhith i already said I feel doesn't act that way toward me at the start of the game as mafia. I've just had decent vibes from his posts, it feels like the effort is there. I might b biased because of my last game with him but nothing he's said has struck me as off.
You, I think if you were scum you'd be much more likely to push someone other than me, because I would not look like an easy targe to most scum. I wouldn't expect you to back off sterling the way you did when he had not received any additional pressure, it didn't look like a backing off to grab towncred but a genuine change of mind. I also don't think your case against me is in bad faith - it's wrong and incredibly misguided but the way you're arguing it feels genuine to me.

Thank U.

For information, treat kk as if he was an SE. He's not new to mafia.

[faüstiv]

seeing how kkirgiri who played mafia on other sites before, and judging how she was able to get a read very early, I guess she's more used to playing by reads rather than power roles, I'm inclined to believe her feels. as well as Cat having suspicions and groups being able to make better guesses than individuals VOTE: Fennec

I still personally have stronger suspicions on maestro but the group is stronger than the induvial

I believe this puts Fennec on L-1.

Anyone who is intenting to vote him should announce an intent to hammer prior to doing so.

[faüstiv]

Basically, I think he's town and probability also suggests to me that he's town too. If we lynch him and he's town like I believe, then we don't really get much information from his lynch.

What's this probability you were speaking of?

Probability of Steampunk being partnered with someone. He's unlikely to be partner with Fennec now either given his recent vote.

[faüstiv]

Prodding Maestro and Fennec.

please could we have a vote count as there have been quite a few votes placed since the last one.

[faüstiv]

seeing how kkirgiri who played mafia on other sites before, and judging how she was able to get a read very early, I guess she's more used to playing by reads rather than power roles, I'm inclined to believe her feels. as well as Cat having suspicions and groups being able to make better guesses than individuals VOTE: Fennec

I still personally have stronger suspicions on maestro but the group is stronger than the induvial

hoo boy this post, feels like ultra-sheep scum flying under the radar to anyone else? "The group is stronger than the individual but I have done no work to try to convince the group of my individual assertion that Maestro is Scum, so now I will just sheep somebody else who has been more nice to me than mean ol Maestro who is Scumreading me so I Scumread them back..."

like what

@ Faust you have to stop using the L word, I'm surprised mod hasn't warned on it yet tbh

I will post more when you all are more interesting, why the votes on Fennec? Maybe I missed something

Force of habit. I haven't played mafia since my last game here where I was scum. "Lynch" was the common term used back then but yeah,I can see why the word causes controversy. I'll try and avoid using the word from now on.

[faüstiv]

You could be, I'm just highlighting something that pinged me. Sure, it's not 'strong evidence' and not a line that's directly indicative to a particular alignment, but it's something that caught my eye and so I felt I should question it. You claiming it to be 'tunnelling' seems like a bit of an overreaction to me.

No, I was specifically highlighting the 'it's only RVS' line in that. I never suggested that players shouldn't move to other wagons, I was merely highlighting the fact that scum will put something in a vote like the 'it's only RVS' line so that they can jump onto other wagons without much heat coming to their slot because they can use that 'it was only RVS' as a defense. Again, not directly alignment indicative, but it's something I've see scum do often. That second line is again, a bit of an overreaction to what I've said whilst also misrepresenting what I've said. Part of your case on Fennec is his overreaction to being scrutinized, yet you now seem to be doing it.

is it an overreaction when you're set on reading sinister intent into literally everything I say? I feel like you're being very unreasonable here. You're not even meaningfully addressing what I'm saying.

Why is it a bad thing to move a vote off from someone after RVS? Why is that scummy? Don't dodge, answer me clearly.

like I was thinking you were sincere but misguided but this current argument suggesting saying "it's only RVS" about a page 1 vote is really bullshit and you've played here before, you should know how early game voting works, trying to attack me for that is nonsense

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say.

You making the RVS vote post pinged me and I wanted to explore it. My point isn't exclusive to RVS; scum could place an FOS/vote on a player for example like the below:

I think catboi is scum. He's overreating a lot and I find that scummy,

but I could be wrong.

I think catboi is scum. He's overreating a lot and I find that scummy,

but I guess town could do it too.

Your "it's only RVS" is in similar vein to the examples listed above. It pinged me and I wanted to question it. I'm not saying RVS is scummy or moving out of RVS is scummy, I'm just making the point that scum can say something as an excuse to 'back out' of a vote, which I've seen scum do numerous times. In your case, it was the "RVS" which I picked up.

[faüstiv]

So I'm new to this site and all. But play ALL the time elsewhere on forums. This thing bugs me a bit.

"Think less when posting, nobody will get mad if you're slightly unclear, just answer questions and show genuine interest, but I will get annoyed by Day 2 if I can't get read on you just fyi"

Where I normally play, we have players who I can't read by D5 or D6. But then again a day lasts like 8 hours normally there. D2 seems a bit impatient to me?

Just fyi, D1 is 10 days and every game-day hence is 7 real days. So games can drag on for a looong time (but tend to speed up when we have more info). By the time D2 starts I have a good read on maybe half the players.
Anyway, welcome to the game! Looking forward to hearing fresh thoughts

Thanks, but i don't know how much help I'm gonna be. Other than wrapping my head around a single day here, being as long as an entire game where I normally play at. I largely play with the same core group of folks over and over so kind of know how everyone plays so that's a challenge too. Add in trying to learn a whole new set of terminology. and my long time stance that D1 is for excrements and giggles.

Gonna be a STEEP learning curve.

do you have any initial reads?

Apologies if this is a double post.... but I wanted to make sure this got answered and even though I hit submit and was told it did get posted.....I don't see it.

VOTE: Maestro

I don't like how quick he was to jump on Sterling for what looked to me to be newbie confusion. I could very well be projecting my own confusion on to Sterling but this forum system doesn't make any sense-yet

assuming by this you townread steampunk then? what's your thoughts on the other players, including steampunk?

RVS = Random Vote Stage. It's where votes are placed at random at the start of the game with the purpose of instigating discussion.

[faüstiv]

VOTE: Maestro

I don't like how quick he was to jump on Sterling for what looked to me to be newbie confusion. I could very well be projecting my own confusion on to Sterling but this forum system doesn't make any sense-yet

I think Sterling's continuation from when he was first voted by Maestro is more telling than Maestro's scumslip theory.

Yeah the time to vote me for "jumping on newbie confusion" as some kind of punishment is long past, the scumslip was a fun theory/idea but his behavior since has been n o t h i n g but platitudes and reactionary "suspicion" on me for jumping at him when he couldn't handle it, screams either incompetent (sorry, just trying to communicate effectively not trying to be rude) newbScum or reactionary newbTown, it's just an opinion different to me from there on out which you go with

Edit By Way Of Post/EBWOP (we usually post this, for example, when I'm typing then I hit preview and I see kiri's #248): yeah, full disclosure, this is definitely a Thing I have done before, I think, in a game, hardbus a partner out of the gate... I don't think I've ever done it in a newbie game and probably not to a newbie I don't think? But see, it's not unheard of that I could be partners with somebody and do this... but I'm not

EBWOP: more stuff aaaaah

so is he new scum or new town because you have been tunnelling him all game with the 'slip' being the basis of your argument.

Steampunk's reactions don't give me town or scum vibes and I dislike your continuous push on the slot.

[faüstiv]

feel like sterling, fennec and thewingfan always flip town this game

[faüstiv]

fairly sure kkrigi is town based on his thought process and I can understand where he's coming from. Plus I think I can read kk farily well and I'm fairly sure he's not scum this game.

The 2 scum are in thryinth/maestro/catboi/ceejay IMHO

[faüstiv]

VOTE: Thryinth

catboi, your defense is egregious and I don't have the energy anymore to argue about one argument in my case on on why you could be scum but whatever. Fairly sure this is scum.

[faüstiv]

Nah what I think happened is when I called out the shoddiness of your argument you realized you couldn't back it up

I've explained numerous times but you just choose to ignore it for whatever reason. You ask me to provide reasoning on my points, I do, then you claim I'm tunnelling you.

[faüstiv]

I have explained it and my point is that I've seen scum put that line in there to give themselves an out and I've caught scum many a time because I've seen them do similar. In isolation, it's not scummy. It deserves to be prodded but it's not something I'm going to keep my vote on for. I kept my vote on you because you dealt with my pressure awfully.

[faüstiv]

There's someone here dealing with pressure awfully and it's not me

OK.

If I'm scum, who is my partner?

[faüstiv]

There's someone here dealing with pressure awfully and it's not me

OK.

If I'm scum, who is my partner?

probably not sterling because it feels more like you're defending someone you know is town with your defense of him

fennec or ceejay would be my guess off the top of my head

vote ceejay with me then

[faüstiv]

fairly sure kkrigi is town based on his thought process and I can understand where he's coming from. Plus I think I can read kk farily well and I'm fairly sure he's not scum this game.

The 2 scum are in thryinth/maestro/catboi/ceejay IMHO

reading kkigri's ISO, i'm less sure on him being town btw

[faüstiv]

Steampunk is town by virtue of him having no partner from what I can see and his general behaviour.

Maybe

at a push ceejay is the partner due to his disengagement in the game, but I'm still confident that he would have said something to Steampunk at least in the mafia chat to stop him charging around the daystate like a brazen bull, so I'm willing to conclude that Steampunk has no scum partner based on my logic and also probability. I did say he could be partners with Fennec, but then his vote on him to put him on E-2 makes 0 sense if they're the team.

Scum!Fennec townreads Sterling relatively early when he's an easy mislynch for mafia and they're unlikely to be partners based on what I said above. Whilst it's not a readlist which goes into great detail, I don't think scum!Fennec makes post 130 as scum, because it's hard for him to justify doing a 180 based on how he quickly affirmed he was 'dumbass town' (remember what I said about scum putting something in there to give themselves an 'out?' Well Fennec didn't do that). Sure, as catboi said, his use of expletives can be seen as a scumtell as it could be seen as him overcompensating to look town, but it could also be his posting style. Fennec's currently in another game which I can't really comment on any more than check his posts out in that game and come to your own conclusions. Progression on catboi vote makes sense given his posts and seems like a natural thought process going into voting him.

Thewingfan is town. I'm not explaining why just yet, but he is town.

catboi - you are right in what you said in #271. When I said I had two townreads and one scumread, I was being truthful with my two townreads. However, when I said catboi was scum, I lied. I wanted to push you to see both how you would react and how others would react. I had you down as null, maybe town based on gut, but your posts were wordy but lacking substance and I wasn't sure if the scumhunting was genuine. I felt poking you was the best move to get something out of you because if you are town then I can easily see you getting booted off later off in the game. Anyway, I maintain what I said in our little squabble: your defense was terrible, you reacted poorly under pressure, you misrepped my argument, but when you voted me I realised that you were town.

That leaves kk/maestro/thry/ceejay in my scumpool and I townread the former more than I do the latter, so at this point, based on PoE, I think the scumteam is ceejay/thry.

[faüstiv]

Thewingfan is town. I'm not explaining why just yet, but he is town.

I hadn't yet got concrete feeling of where you were at, but that sounds eerily like a feeling I've been having but not sure how I'd articulate that I feel like it must come from a town perspective.

Your spat with catboi had been concerning me though, I was beginning wonder why you seemed intent at undermining my reads and wondered if it were deliberate, I was going to ask you how you thought catboi

should

have reacted to your pushing, since I thought it was true that your reasoning relating to his first vote was pretty thin. He could quite legitimately resist your FOS I think as either alignment - maybe the breadth and timing of his posts leans townish, but either way, nothing as concrete as my initial townread on him which I've kept throughout.

...

Still don't think your reasoning re: Sterling is good enough. Again, even if his partner might have wanted to coach him, it's no guarantee that he'd had have heeded their advice, for what could be any number of reasons. From your perspective, if you think that him being new to forum mafia is important, then by your logic, this perhaps makes him more likely to misinterpret or disregard what his partner would have to say. You're expecting him to act rationally in one aspect of the game whilst giving him the benefit of the doubt for irrational behaviour that you're seeing in the thread.

My theory has been and remains:

-> Maestro accuses Sterling of scumslipping.
-> Sterling accidentally mentions having a private thread in his response.
-> Sterling then realises that Maestro didn't mention such a thing in his accusation, realises he doesn't have a decent explanation for doing so, tries to change the subject.
-> Fennec switches into the game in a pretty poor situation [if we assume he is mafia with Sterling], makes a couple of heated posts to try to take attention away from Sterling and on to players who had been lurking.
-> Sterling tries a few tactics to try to distance himself from Fennec, ending in him voting Fennec not long after I'd posited a possible scumteam between the two, and faust had declared that Fennec would be Sterling's only possible partner in his defence of Sterling.

Another damning thing here is that earlier (#114), he'd questioned me voting Fennec, and his reason for switching his vote hinged upon him learning about my past experience in the game, and Thyn's prior vote (whose alignment he had not commented on). As has been pointed out, this is just not something a town player should do; even a confused town player would be more cautious with their vote here.
Whether or not you consider his vote on Fennec to be a trap to get us to think they're not a team (I'm still leaning that it could be), Sterling doesn't come out looking good at all.

As such:
VOTE: Sterling the steampunk

You do raise a fair point re. a partner trying to coach him and him refusing to listen, but my townread on him isn't solely based on this theory. As you have stated, Steampunk isn't new to the concept of mafia, so he will know that the purpose of being mafia is to blend in and not act suspicious. His voting pattern is not scum-motivated. As scum, I believe he would be more cautious with where he throws his votes and the speed/style in which he throws his votes about. He's drawing attention to himself based on his style of play and I just believe that scum!Steampunk plays a more cautious game as mafia.

In terms of your theory, I think Maestro made a valid point re. a scumslip, but I was satisfied with Steampunk's response. I also think (and I don't want to sound rude here, it's just something I've picked up) English isn't Steampunk's first language and I think his retorts are being deliberately misrepresented in a way to make a valid case on him to get him voted out. Steampunk is an easy mislynch for mafia. You questioned Maestro's theory in post 47 but now you maintain you believe he scumslipped all along. If that's the case, then why have you only just placed a vote on him?

I also believe that Steampunk/Fennec don't co-ordinate that vote to put Fennec on E-2 given there's 1. heat on the slot 2. Fennec being inactive at that point in time. I don't think either party could solo this game and if there's an investigative role in the game, then they're likely to check one of the two tonight anyway. Your theory doesn't make sense and it's actually pinged me a little as it looks like you're setting up for a Fennec mislynch tomorrow once Steampunk flips town.

Consider my eyebrow fully

raised.

[faüstiv]

seeing how kkirgiri who played mafia on other sites before, and judging how she was able to get a read very early, I guess she's more used to playing by reads rather than power roles, I'm inclined to believe her feels. as well as Cat having suspicions and groups being able to make better guesses than individuals VOTE: Fennec

I still personally have stronger suspicions on maestro but the group is stronger than the induvial

lmfao
Faust, ya still think Sterling town? Swooping onto the waggon mere hours after I get it going? Too timid to be the second, so he saw my vote and took the chance?

Stop evading this. What do you think of Sterling's vote?

@Faust

Oi, respond to this. Does his vote make no impression on your read of him?

YO.

I will, just not yet. I'm meant to be working.

[faüstiv]

and yeah fuck i used "lynch" again. sorry lads.

This is the first game I've played since "lynch" was a banned phrase. It was used freely when I last played on this site so I'm going to use it from time to time without thinking.

[faüstiv]

What I say in #47 relates to his opening post being more likely a townslip than a scumslip. It is still possible that he hasn't looked at his private thread or seen his name there, my point kind of assumed that he did though if he were scum, and at that point that seemed the more natural chain of events to me.

What might be considered a 'slip' from him is a separate point entirely, that he claims that Maestro accused him of having a private thread and therefore being mafia, when that was nothing to do with what he said. It is true that I had brought up private threads as a topic, but that was in the context of me trying to defend him - which is again different to what I am pushing him for, if you read what I'm saying carefully.
To me this seemed like it could be guilty conscience coming through by responding to an accusation that hadn't been made of him.

You will have to quote Sterling's posts and explain in further detail because as it stands, I'm reconsidering my townread on you. I don't see any evidence where Sterling's guilty conscience is shining through and this feels a bit reachy to me.

What I feel like you're doing is that you decided he was town very early on, and are now trying to fit all later events into that framework no matter what, even if it's not the most natural explanation for them. Yeah, I know that feeling of it being 'too obvious', but this isn't a hand-written scenario. I think the obvious answer here is the right one.

This is incorrect as I voted Steampunk after Maestro's post and pressured the slot. I was satisified with his response and so removed my vote off of him. I think Steampunk is votebait and I'm not liking the bandwagon on him at all.

As to why I'm only just voting him, I think you can gather why in my #289. I'm still suspicious of Fennec, but I think he's a better vote than him at the moment.

I still don't see how you think Fennec and Steampunk are both scum. Nothing in their playstyle and interactions indicate to me that they are a team.

I mean Sterling's flipping maf here, but even if he didn't, then wouldn't suspicion immediately be cast on me and Maestro at the start of Day 2? Myself especially since it'd be my own vote on Sterling that would look particularly opportunistic. I'd be in no position to get Fennec voted out.

I disagree. You're townread by most of the players and both Fennec and Steampunk are hot choices for a mislynch.

What's your thoughts on Thryhith and ceejay? Would you be willing to join me and vote one of them?

[faüstiv]

Ok fair enough. I don't agree with your conclusion, but I can see where you're coming from.

I will be posting my case on ceejay/thry shortly.

[faüstiv]

also how do you link to posts?

[faüstiv]

Ok, so when I said I had two townreads and one scumread, the scumread I had at that point was was actually on ceejay. I didn't want to vote/suspect him directly because I wanted to see how he'd react to certain bandwagons etc. as I believe that votes are a better tool for determining mafia than posts are.

Post #85:

It's weird but I'm not really seeing anything yet that catches my attention, except for faustiv who I have no idea how to sort.

catboi feels like town.
maestro feels like town but I wouldn't mind seeing more.

Kyouko hasn't really done anything yet except sit on her early read. Might check again later.
Sterling? idk could be town.

Rose and Thynhith disappeared.

Rockhopper didn't show.

I'd rather push Thynhith for now.

VOTE: Thynhith what do you think of the game so far?

Outs a lazy readlist, claims he doesn't know how to sort me but makes no effort to try and sort me. I was a scumread player at that point in the game. Why would town!ceejay not try and sort me here? Says he'd rather push on Thyn but doesn't explain why.

#87:

I think that's a loose way to describe it? I just want more from you to help figure you out.

Gut feeling is I should probably look into faustiv more but I don't really feel like doing that yet.

Another gut feeling is that your entrance felt rather awkward but looking back on it I think this is just how you post.

Again references me, again makes 0 attempt to sort me. Doesn't pursue his vote on Thry past this point.

Ceejay, I'd like to know why

?

#165:

Catching up and for some reason I'm liking kkirigiri and faustiv more for town.

I'm not sure what to do with Maestro. I'm getting town vibes but I'm not confident about it for some reason. Maybe because early on he's involved more with nudging along the newbies rather than actively sorting, if that makes sense.

Doesn't explain why. Convenient that me and kkirigiri were townread by most of the players at that point.

#167:

I also don't think it's a good idea to base townreads off genuine/casual tones. I'm not saying your Maestro townread is wrong but I don't like the reason for that townread. If you told me he helped advance the game or has been helpful to town in some way or something that could be better.

This coming after posting a lazy readlist before. His read on Maestro as per his readlist was "maestro feels like town but I wouldn't mind seeing more."

#169 he criticizes Fennec's readlist. I suppose this is in line with the criticism he had on Thry's readlist, but his tone in response to this readlist reads more provocative and interrogative:

Also feels like a weird reason for a townlean

To you, this feels like either TvT or TvS. That's pretty useless. Every interaction in this game involving two people could easily feel like that. What makes this one stand out?

He was not this aggressive when criticising Thry's readlist when he was townreading people based on tone like Fennec's readlist was. Fennec was scumread at that point in the game.

#285 reads like someone trying to justify a reason to vote me.

And what the heck is this?

I was going to go back to the other pages to see what I've missed but these caught my eye.

Again, the tone is different to when he was 'interrogating' Thry.

Also want to vote steampunk too. His iso feels worse than I remember it being.

This I believe is ceejay giving himself an out to jump off my wagon and jump on Steampunk's.

#287:

Probably town. idk I'm not good at mafia: kkirigiri, catboi

in that weird state between "probably town" and "I don't want to elim these today": maestro

I don't want to elim these today: wingfan, Thynhith, fennec?

Everybody else: faustiv, sterlingsteampunk

Notice how the two players with the most heat on them are in ceejay's votepool? and Fennec's name is ended with a ?

If I was to go completely tinfoil hat, I would argue that ceejay's #85 and subsequent interaction with Thry is two partners distancing, but I don't feel like going down that particular avenue just yet.

[faüstiv]

in short, ceejay reads like someone who is doing the bare minimum to scumhunt, is jumping on wagons which aren't controversial and townreading players who are townread by consensus. It could be read as disengagement, but there's too much there for me to completely dismiss it, and other players are townier than him which makes him scum via POE imo.

[faüstiv]

Thry isn't someone who actually pinged me as scum until I read his ISO. I feel like Thry is making posts which make him 'appear' to be actively scumhunting, but he's not really scumhunting. They're safe, 'radio-friendly' posts which sound pleasant, but aren't thought-provoking or provide anything interesting.

#89:

It's been a fascinating reread. Just want to note that I don't find this entirely satisfying, and Maestro has a valid concern.
1) It's plausible you weren't expecting me pick up on the change to your meta
2) Also plausible you made up an explanation after I pointed it out
Chuck me a link to your prior game and I promise I'll stop harping on

Like this post for example. It's not very controversial. Tonally it reads town, but what is Thry actually saying here? "Just want to note that I don't find this entirely satisfying". Does nothing to pressure the slot.

It's plausible you weren't expecting me pick up on the change to your meta

Other people picked up on this.

Also plausible you made up an explanation after I pointed it out

Possibly, but this does nothing from a scumhunter's perspective. It's just stating the obvious.

Chuck me a link to your prior game and I promise I'll stop harping on

Maybe a stretch but he could have been saying this to look reasonable and look like he is genuinely trying to sort cat? But then again, why not just look at catboi's game history, which can be found in his profile? Why does he feel the need to ask him directly? 87 is a post which reads tonally town and reasonable, but doesn't actually say anything, and there are a few of Thry's posts which are in a similar vein to this.

Finished catching up now. First impression is that there are few telling reads either way. But some interesting interactions.

@Sterling, I think most people want to get a better read on you, but you don't have much content. What are your reads right now? Even better, do you think anyone voting for you is scum?

Like what does this mean?

#126:

My forepromised reads list

Townlean
Maestro - feels pretty genuine/casual, hard to fake for scum.
Kirigiri - her declaration at the start feels too random for scum. But, Kiri, I would like to see you elucidate what part of Rose's first post made you scumread him.

???
Sterling - gut says he is newtownie, need to see more to be sure
Rock and Rose - not enough content
Catboi -

I would like to town read you, but I'm getting too much of a defensive tone. Im sure it will become more clear though. And your latest vote on Sterling - surely as SE you should know better than pushing newbies who have slipped up?

Faust - has quietly gone under the radar? Soft pushing sterling? Not happy with him unwilling to commit himself, very much an evasive attitude, so [VOTE: Faust]
I would like him to explain his own unvote.

Pedit: by that logic perhaps I should be scumreading you

Actually reading this, is this a scumslip? "pushing newbies who have slipped up". I quoted it because he's criticizing catboi for pushing on Sterling which he as also doing, but he's worded it in such a way that he

knows

Steampunk slipped up?

I can think of some uses for elimming him. We get to clear the air, so to speak. So long as we have him in D2 he will continue to be the center of discussion, and later scum will use him as a convenient lynchee. Besides, I still feel somewhat uneasy about his towniness. After getting everyone stirred up with his "scumslip", wouldn't a newtownie be working to regain trust and contribute discussion? Any townie, in fact. It's suspect that he laid low after those first few days, only emerging to post insubstantial comments.

Policy vote isn't pro-town. Why is Thry advocating for this?

#215 he votes Fennec when he's a hot wagon. Interrogating me, his tone completely changes now that I've voted him. Unhappy that I townread three players, two of which, are voteable.

@Faust Oi, respond to this. Does his vote make no impression on your read of him?

It did make me townread him, but now I'm wondering if he's your partner based on #126



I am happy to reconsider my Steampunk read D2 if Thry flips scum, but PLEASE can we vote this today?

[faüstiv]

meanwhile if Sterling flips *scum* I would never in my life leave Faust alive until endgame w how he's been defending Sterling

sheep me today and if Thry flips scum i'll sheep you tomorrow.

[faüstiv]

nah, I trust that bravado of yours even less than I trust your read(s)

what is your read on thry?

[faüstiv]

meanwhile if Sterling flips *scum* I would never in my life leave Faust alive until endgame w how he's been defending Sterling

sheep me today and if Thry flips scum i'll sheep you tomorrow.

BTW what do you by "sheeping" in this context?

sheeping = follow my vote

[faüstiv]

I will address his defence later but in the meantime I would encourage you all to sheep my vote.

[faüstiv]

i'll address things in a bit but in short, i really like ceejay's most recent posts.

[faüstiv]

You're misrepresenting my posts. I was not in fact scumreading caboi when I made it, but had moved my vote long before. That post was me pushing him for a link so I could confirm his story about meta change. Why would you be expecting me to pressure him? And it means you've haven't even tried to metaread him, because if you did you'd know he's a mod, and that his ISO is cluttered with modded games. I have in fact reviewed his game history, which you would know if you had properly reread my ISO. If you're going to "scumhunt", do it properly? At this point you're just cherry picking posts.

I haven't tried to metaread him because he said at daystart that he changes his playstyle every game, but I have read some of his past games for fun and they weren't too tricky to find. I even said in my case on you that this is reachy so it's pretty convenient that you chose to cherry pick this particular part of my case on you.

"Finished catching up now. First impression is that there are few telling reads either way. But some interesting interactions."
It means exactly what I said. I saw some interesting interplay between folks and Sterling, and wasn't interested in commenting on that. Kind of like you townreading thewingfan, for some reason.

As to the "policy elim", I am astounded that you actually read my post and missed
"I still feel somewhat uneasy about his towniness. After getting everyone stirred up with his "scumslip", wouldn't a newtownie be working to regain trust and contribute discussion? Any townie, in fact. It's suspect that he laid low after those first few days, only emerging to post insubstantial comments."
You're not even cherry picking posts anymore, you're cherry picking sentences of my posts. I mean wtf

His vote makes you townread him? So kiri asks for votes, I vote to pressure him. So that's two votes. Then after I've warmed it, Sterling gets on the wagon and you TOWNREAD him? OMGUS, I don't even want to engage with you anymore

1. I'm cherry picking parts of your posts that I found scummy.
2. My townread came on me thinking that Fennec doesn't townread Sterling if he's mafia and Sterling is town in that scenario. I said that Sterling could be partners with Fennec. That theory evaporated when Sterling randomly put him on E-2.
3. The "Finished catching up now. First impression is that there are few telling reads either way. But some interesting interactions." says nothing. You never elaborated on this. You threw in some nothing, 'lazy' analysis on the gamestate, which is my issue with your play overall.
4. You have failed to address my concern regarding your #126 regarding your potential 'scumslip':

Catboi - I would like to town read you, but I'm getting too much of a defensive tone. Im sure it will become more clear though. And your latest vote on Sterling -

surely as SE you should know better than pushing newbies who have slipped up?

This was said in such confidence, as if you

knew

he slipped up. You failed to address this in your defense and I think this was a more pertinent part of my case than the part which I claimed was 'reachy', which you conveniently decided to pick up on.
5. Your post is an incredibly hostile reaction considering you only have one vote on you and I am the only one scumreading you. It makes me think that I'm on the right track with my scumread on you.

[faüstiv]

UNVOTE: Thyrhrith
VOTE: Thryhrith

[faüstiv]

sterling's defense is underwhelming to me - he still isn't even really trying to address anything that's being said or give reads on anyone.

Thyn, are you willing to move to sterling? I want to get a claim out of him.

I'm actually in favour of him claiming right now honestly, putting him at E-1 I don't think is gonna make any difference to his behaviour.

I will consider Sterling at a push, though I think Thryrith is the obvious scum in this game.

[faüstiv]

ceejay's progression on sterling actually makes no sense, looking at it

It's weird but I'm not really seeing anything yet that catches my attention, except for faustiv who I have no idea how to sort.

catboi feels like town.
maestro feels like town but I wouldn't mind seeing more.

Kyouko hasn't really done anything yet except sit on her early read. Might check again later.
Sterling? idk could be town.

Rose and Thynhith disappeared.

Rockhopper didn't show.

I'd rather push Thynhith for now.

VOTE: Thynhith what do you think of the game so far?

oh, and on ceejay too - i literally forgot he was in the game when i was writing that post

I usually like this because there is less pressure on me but this almost feels weird.

I wasn't included in any reads lists so far and I haven't interacted with anybody either since Thynhith.

No complaints though.

out readlist

Probably town. idk I'm not good at mafia:

kkirigiri, catboi

in that weird state between "probably town" and "I don't want to elim these today":

maestro

I don't want to elim these today:

wingfan, Thynhith, fennec?

Everybody else:

faustiv, sterlingsteampunk

Fennec isn't voting anybody? That's a bit unusual. It's starting to get late.

I sort of want to vote fennec but sterling is on the same wagon and I don't know how to feel about that...

VOTE: Sterling

Looking back on it now I feel like doing anything involving faustiv today is probably not a good idea.

Like, I could maybe get the "idk could be town" on sterling early on degrading as time went on and other people have been doing more than him, but still go there and put a vote on him with no real explanation doesn't sit right with me.

A lot of discussion took place in between the three posts you have highlighted. It makes sense that Ceejay's progression on the read isn't completely fluid, given his infrequent posting.

[faüstiv]

UNVOTE: Thyrhrith
VOTE: Thryhrith

Also why did you unvote then vote again?

felt like it

[faüstiv]

I didn't want to put a target on my back, I'm the cop

game just got interesting.

[faüstiv]

I like you too faustiv

it is our duty to quell all evil within this fine town my good friend.

[faüstiv]

well, I've just found my lead, and I didn't even need to check backlog, I think kkirigiri is mafia because only a mafia would fake a CC, Also I have to take a walk

i don't think he's faking a claim

[faüstiv]

@Sterling, what's your report btw?

[faüstiv]

well, I've just found my lead, and I didn't even need to check backlog, I think kkirigiri is mafia because only a mafia would fake a CC, Also I have to take a walk

i don't think he's faking a claim

the sounds like a stealth fake CC, like they CC in a way they can say it's not a CC

who did you investigate?

[faüstiv]

Ok cool, feel like this game is close to being solved.

I'm town, kkirigiri, thewingfan are obvious town. pretty sure catboi is town too. steampunk is the cop..

maestro/ceejay/fennec/thry are in the votepool. we have 2 free votes.

maestro's push on sterling was bad, but it's not enough to shake off my gut townread on him. fennec i think is townier than ceejay based on his 130 which really was an incredible post tbh.

can we vote off thryrith? i will vote ceejay at a push, but i'm confident that thry is scum this game.

[faüstiv]

ah shoot town PRs can't necessarily tell which roles are in the game or not can they, hmmm.

I think I have a good way to systematically find a counterclaim to Sterling if there is one though, that gives minimum information to the mafia.

If the town follows this procedure with what to say given which role:

role

-> player action

vanilla T

-> 'i cannot disprove'

doctor

-> 'i cannot disprove'

tracker

-> 'i can disprove'

jailkeeper

-> 'i can disprove'

mason

-> 'i can disprove'

cop

-> 'i can disprove'

then this is I think ideal; mafia can lie and say they can disprove Sterling of course, but that's fine from the town's POV.

Maybe one thing I could add is to give an order for the town to claim in [for example, use the order in the OP], so that we don't get unnecessarily get two contradictions at once?

scum isn't making this post @sterling the steampunk

[faüstiv]

he's going to be back tonight reading through all the crap, so I await his post with bated breath.

[faüstiv]

ceejay

I'm not going to get my wish today so might as well vote the player I think is the second most likely to be scum. disregard #356, a lot has happened since.

[faüstiv]

VOTE: ceejay

mb

[faüstiv]

urgggh UNVOTE:

have a horrible feeling ceejay flips town if he eats a vote today. i may be wrong on fennec. i'll wait to see what fennec/replacement says.

[faüstiv]

actually no:

VOTE: ceejay

read some of his town/scum games and his game here seems more in line with his scum game to me.

[faüstiv]

Arghhh so close!

I'm tempted to ask about how you would differentiate my town and scum games but I don't think I'd like it if discussion on that distracts from the discussion on Sterling's claim...

Well one thing I noticed that was consistent is that you don't really go into detail with your reads as either allignment. In the scumgames I saw, you tended to 'townloan' a lot of players where as town you firmed these up as stronger townreads earlier on in the game. Idk, I get similar vibes to your game here as I do from reading your ISO in Micro 1057: viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89703&start=400 like you do the weird readlist which offers no real firm opinions any more than 'maybe town' 'idk' 'maybe scum' and seem a bit hesitant to commit to townreads? Maybe it's disengagement, but I felt that you made more of an effort to sort players in 2278 (where you were town) than you have this game viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89796.

Would be interested to see what others think of the two games I linked above. One game where ceejay is scum and one game where he is town.

[faüstiv]

honestly ceejay, if you are town just give me something. the game is v close to being solved tbh. obv i would have liked to have seen more from fennec and maybe maestro but w/e, we all got priorities innit.

[faüstiv]

on my knees begging for a townread

[faüstiv]

lol

[faüstiv]

VOTE: kkirigiri

[faüstiv]

kkirigiri has just hammered uncc cop. he's probably scum with thryrith

[faüstiv]

reminder if i die there is at least one scum in thryrith/catboi/kirigiri. this quick wagon does not come from three townies

[faüstiv]

and i don't buy that sterling fakeclaims cop in this situation either.

i think thry/kkirigiri is the more likely team and kkirigiri waited for it to go to E-1 before hammering.

[faüstiv]

I didn't want to put a target on my back, I'm the cop

you know I had half a mind to fake-cc this just to ensure you went down and sell the mafia a massive dummy, but I'm aware that such arrogance could end up backfiring.
Instinctively though, I think this is a lie.

@Sterling, what's your report btw?

It was worth a go, heh.

anyway, if there are no objections, Fennec, can you disprove Sterling's claim?

I forgot to add

friendly neighbour

-> 'i can disprove' to #386, but you could probably have guessed that anyway.

This isn't exactly the situation I'd expected to return to.

Nonetheless, I agree with catboi here; we can't wait forever for Fennec's replacement or for Maestro to post, and after sleeping on it, I feel like Sterling very rarely flips town here.
I know it might feel a bit weird, but I think you should vote with us @ceejay, assuming you're town. Nothing that anyone else says in this phase is going to change my mind on this vote.

My only trepidation comes from wondering if I'm surviving the night. I hope I can trust the town figure the rest of the game out if the mafia fearkills me.

VOTE: Sterling the steampunk

this progression makes 0 sense if kkirigiri is town. the first two posts imply that he believes the cop claim "I had half a mind to fake-cc." "It was worth a go." He was never questioning Sterling's claim here.

Next post he says he'll wait for Fennec's replacement before deciding anything.

Last post he decides to hammer sterling because "we can't wait around for Fennec's replacement" even though catboi points out that a late replacement likely incurs a day extention.

[faüstiv]

ok i misread. yeah he's not hammered.

I'm not voting uncc cop.

I dislike your vote.

prove you are town and vote thryrith with me then.

[faüstiv]

like i get that someone could be softing a cc of the setup (one which cop does not appear in) but still, sterling is uncc cop atm and so we should vote outside of him.

[faüstiv]

quick bw usually implies town anyway.

[faüstiv]

like even if there is a cc, we should lynch outside anyway, especially if it's the setup with no doctor

[faüstiv]

VOTE: Thrynhith

sheep me. this is scum.

[faüstiv]

bad hammer

[faüstiv]

turbovote kkirigiri tomorrow

[faüstiv]

Thewingfan is town. I'm not explaining why just yet, but he is town.

Any time before end of day would be great

Is this late enough? Please post before you forget.

if i told you, your brain might explode into a million tiny pieces.

[faüstiv]

I think the night break will be good for all of us. Not good to get so heated by a mafia game. But I'd appreciate you staying civil.

I wasn't implying anything.

[faüstiv]

I do want to hear from the people who haven't posted since the claim but I decided based on what thyn is saying I'm okay with taking the risky path and voting sterling today.

Sorry for my absence yesterday. Unexpected dryer drama-as in it broke and we spent the day finding a new one and getting it installed....

And today I need to dispose of about a gazillion leaves-color me excited....

At any rate. I'm caught up tp this point.

Couple thoughts as I get caught up.

1. I have the philosophy that we shouldn't hang the scouts. Granted I'm used to games with more people and more roles and stuff. I did see people asking Sterling who he scouted. Question-Since we are still in D1, Has he had an opportunity to scout?

2. kk's fakeclaim. They didn't and said they thought about it to try to see who jumped. They didn't do it. Last game at home site, someone actually did this and we didn't believe anyone would be brazen enough to do this, but they did and it worked. Had kk done this and we hanged Sterling, and Sterling were revealed to be the cop after all we'd have had a MASSIVE distraction on D2 if not a runaway train. I feel better that kk said that they just considered doing it, and didn't, but I've ticked a question mark there.

bit of a nightmare weekend by the sounds of it mate

[faüstiv]

shit we lost our jailkeeper

[faüstiv]

shit we lost our jailkeeper

also bad opening post lmaooo

I think I saw an old discussion thread somewhere that said posts like this are something like 70/30% from a Scum perspective rather than Town, this just isn't what most of us would focus on or care about or say after the Day/Night phase we've had... like we've got this basically won, and you're worried about your nice kill from the Night before... ok bud

why would scum be annoyed over a PR death?

[faüstiv]

If you are Town Tracker or Town Friendly Neighbor you should probably claim now, honestly we can probably massclaim popcorn-style* so we can have any potential CCs locked in and out in the open to solve this game. We're in Row 2 of the setup, if some peeps haven't noticed, so us doing the claims as a Town is helpful for figuring out whether we just have 1 Goon to worry about or whether there is another Mafia PR who could mess up Night action(s). Everybody should be looking over what happened with the relatively quick Sterling hammer yesterday and who was trying to lead us away from that kill over the course of the Day. Ceejay is not automatically cleared; it should go without saying but SEs have the sense to make a quick hammer play to shut up an unhelpful or obviously-doomed teammate.

I'm a VT, and I would popcorn to Faust bc the whiteknight of Sterling yesterday looks as bad as I said it did. We're almost certainly getting rid of you today, bud. Sorry.

No, we shouldn't do this. Nobody needs to claim.

[faüstiv]

The way I see it, I don't want to focus too much on the kill, but an experienced scum made that kill because I did kinda suss he was a power role towards the end of the day (which is why I was a bit tunnelly, sorry bud). I don't think thewingfan makes that kill.

I don't think it's kkirigiri or Maestro.

Coule be catboi but tbh I'm not feeling it.

It's either Wayward Son or ceejay. At the moment, I'm tempted to believe that ceejay voted his doomed scumbuddy to gain towncred, but I'll reread D1 again to establish a more solid read.

[faüstiv]

I don't really understand how mass-claiming here helps the town.
We're eliminating faust in this phase, no two ways about it. If anyone still needs convincing then I can think of three separate reasons why he makes overwhelmingly the most sense as Sterling's scum partner, and will elaborate on them if asked.
And if on the off-chance his play is him being town in some idiosyncratic way that I have not accounted for, letting the scum have a stab at the PRs with a chance of missing is beneficial to us in Day 3 scenarios (at that point claims

would

make more sense).

If you don't think my D1 was me trying to solve the game rather than me trying to blend in then I don't know what to say tbh.

Besides, the sterling vote was bad even though he flipped mafia. We should always vote outside of PR claims for potential autowin.

[faüstiv]

If you are Town Tracker or Town Friendly Neighbor you should probably claim now, honestly we can probably massclaim popcorn-style* so we can have any potential CCs locked in and out in the open to solve this game. We're in Row 2 of the setup, if some peeps haven't noticed, so us doing the claims as a Town is helpful for figuring out whether we just have 1 Goon to worry about or whether there is another Mafia PR who could mess up Night action(s). Everybody should be looking over what happened with the relatively quick Sterling hammer yesterday and who was trying to lead us away from that kill over the course of the Day. Ceejay is not automatically cleared; it should go without saying but SEs have the sense to make a quick hammer play to shut up an unhelpful or obviously-doomed teammate.

I'm a VT, and I would popcorn to Faust bc the whiteknight of Sterling yesterday looks as bad as I said it did. We're almost certainly getting rid of you today, bud. Sorry.

Are mass role claims the preferred method here? If so I'm likely to not play on this site again. I personally detest them. It takes the fun out of the game for me.

I got hanged for standing on a table on this and refusing to do it at my home site on principle and I was town then.

Mass claim only helps scum at this point. If we have a tracker with an alive inno report then they should crumb. We can get potential auto tomorrow if the tracker stays hidden, we lynch outside of his inno report and tracker stays alive with a second inno report (and that inno doesn't die).

[faüstiv]

It's either Wayward Son or ceejay. At the moment, I'm tempted to believe that ceejay voted his doomed scumbuddy to gain towncred, but I'll reread D1 again to establish a more solid read.

Given the timeframe of when Wayward Son joined the game, do you think they had time to formulate a plan or did they just pull a name from the hat and get lucky? Percentage play out of those two is ceejay.

Wayward Son has had two days to decide who to kill and he may have already been following the game prior to joining. From what I gather, he's played a couple of games on this site so he could have PR read Thry.

[faüstiv]

Now look here. If I'm mafia, the least I could have done yesterday is wait for a cc or something, and THEN hammer Sterling.

I would have at least wanted some info in exchange for a doomed partner or something.

Sure this certainly doesn't auto clear me, that's fine, but I just want to say I'm no dumbass and would certainly try to play optimally whenever I can.

if you knew sterling was mafia though then thry made it pretty obvious he wasn't a VT.

[faüstiv]

we've 7 days. fellas, show your fellow townie some compassion.

i'm a waste of a vote. at least let me defend myself.

[faüstiv]

If you are Town Tracker or Town Friendly Neighbor you should probably claim now, honestly we can probably massclaim popcorn-style* so we can have any potential CCs locked in and out in the open to solve this game. We're in Row 2 of the setup, if some peeps haven't noticed, so us doing the claims as a Town is helpful for figuring out whether we just have 1 Goon to worry about or whether there is another Mafia PR who could mess up Night action(s). Everybody should be looking over what happened with the relatively quick Sterling hammer yesterday and who was trying to lead us away from that kill over the course of the Day. Ceejay is not automatically cleared; it should go without saying but SEs have the sense to make a quick hammer play to shut up an unhelpful or obviously-doomed teammate.

I'm a VT, and I would popcorn to Faust bc the whiteknight of Sterling yesterday looks as bad as I said it did. We're almost certainly getting rid of you today, bud. Sorry.

Are mass role claims the preferred method here? If so I'm likely to not play on this site again. I personally detest them. It takes the fun out of the game for me.

I got hanged for standing on a table on this and refusing to do it at my home site on principle and I was town then.

Mass claim only helps scum at this point. If we have a tracker with an alive inno report then they should crumb. We can get potential auto tomorrow if the tracker stays hidden, we lynch outside of his inno report and tracker stays alive with a second inno report (and that inno doesn't die).

This is ALL assuming there's a Tracker, which there isn't necessarily and which is a weird assumption to make. I still think massclaim is fine in this scenario since we have so much room to hang Scum on - like, we'd have to be legitimately Worst-Case-Scenario from here on out not to clinch the win but fine, if others don't want to I won't/can't force it. You should still claim though, Faust, bc we're going with you for today.

VOTE: Faustiv

I just agree w kkiri; we just have no reason not to go this route after your horrible white-knighting of Sterling. We have so many opportunities you're just the first and best, no offense.

And to the person who asked about massclaims being "the norm" on this site, the correct answer is that at some point

they are optimal play at certain points whether you like that or not

and plenty of ppl like going w the optimal play so they are often advocated for once a game hits that point. I wouldn't say they're the default way to solve a game but they certainly become possible and allow for that to happen sooner, IMO.

EBWOP: lol ok ceejay

get me after the 7 days then. a short day just helps scum.

[faüstiv]

like i think maestro is just policy voting me here. wayward son jumps on the BW without much elaboration. kkgiri, at least give me a day to defend myself. i've got a bit of a headache atm.

please unvote.

[faüstiv]

I said let's hear it, but l m a o I told you what would happen if Sterling flipped when you started white-knighting, I was almost trying to help you bud, but you look like megaScum rn what can you even say or do

EBWOP: you can keep saying "actually X helps Scum" but at some point we also like, have a lot of reason to think you're just Scum and voting you will instantly end game, which is amazing like A+ victory for Town, so like, just shhh if we are wrong, then we rethink, etc. but like, you can't just keep trying to refute "XYZ helps Town" with no evidence to back-up other than Wine In Front Of Me and Appeal To Emotion (that "fellow Townie" line actually made me wretch a bit, c'mon)

yeah but i'm not mafia and sterling was legit a bad vote, even though he flipped mafia. we should have lynched outside of the PR claim for autowin.

we should be voting in ceejay/wayward today and i think ceejay is more likely to flip scum.

[faüstiv]

EBWOP: Appeal To Emotion

Not a policy vote at all, evidence is your behavior all of yesterday; not my fault your strategy bombed or that I told you how it would bomb the Day before it fully did

i know wha ATE is, i'm just asking for a day to actually set a case on A. why i'm not maf B. who i think is mafia. i am town and ending the day quickly just helps scum.

if the town are going to vote me out anyway, then why does it matter whether it's now or at the end of the day phase? why are

you

trying to rush the day phase?

[faüstiv]

You can sit at L-1 for a couple days, there's no need for desperation rn if you have a headache... and you're Town

I can understand the desperation if scum tho, for sure, headache or no

EBWOP: Stop. With. That. Word. I actually agree ceejay is a decent compromise, but we have pretty clear consensus on you, Faust. Sterling was not a bad vote; it was a bit silly how quickly it happened and how it ended, for which we look to ceejay at some point if you don't flip Scum and end game... but like. C'mon. You're gone.

yeah... i don't want to wake up tomorrow to find out i've been hammered by one of the american players here.

[faüstiv]

like i'm just kinda pissed as i'd planned an elaborate post and wasn't expecting to be turbo-wagoned like this and haven't been able to post it due to work. i would play day 1 so much differently as scum.

[faüstiv]

EBWOP: you can keep saying "actually X helps Scum" but at some point we also like, have a lot of reason to think you're just Scum and voting you will instantly end game, which is amazing like A+ victory for Town, so like, just shhh if we are wrong, then we rethink, etc. but like, you can't just keep trying to refute "XYZ helps Town" with no evidence to back-up other than Wine In Front Of Me and Appeal To Emotion (that "fellow Townie" line actually made me wretch a bit, c'mon)

yeah but i'm not mafia and

sterling was legit a bad vote

, even though he flipped mafia. we should have lynched outside of the PR claim for autowin.

This just isn't true is it though from your POV. If you were town and Sterling flipped cop, then you seemed pretty dead set on myself and Thynhith being scum. Why would having either one mafia eliminated immediately, or a solved game in your view be bad for town?

we should be voting in ceejay/

wayward

today and i think ceejay is more likely to flip scum.

Probability of Steampunk being partnered with someone. He's unlikely to be partner with Fennec now either given his recent vote.

Also, a curious discrepancy.

[Wayward's taken over Fennec's slot, for clarity]

i did think thry was scum until i saw the sterling flip, but he was either flipping scum or pr based on reactions. In the event that sterling flipped maf, my tunnel at the end was also a way of trying to protect him as I figured that if I brought some heat to the slot, they'd keep him and me alive thinking I'd continue to push on him the next day. thry is never flipping VT due to his reaction. scum and pr's react similarly as both are trying to conceal their true identity.

in a cc between sterling and thry then I vote to get rid of thry 100% as I would have believed sterling's claim over his.

i maintain the idea that voting to get rid of sterling was the wrong play and i did say this day 1. ceejay should have been the vote.

[faüstiv]

tracker shouldn't claim with any report if there's one in game.

[faüstiv]

like i'm just kinda pissed as i'd planned an elaborate post and wasn't expecting to be turbo-wagoned like this and haven't been able to post it due to work. i would play day 1 so much differently as scum.

I want to hear your elaborate post. If you're scum (and I think you are) there's only one slot you can push IMO.

Maybe

I can be convinced to vote somewhere else.

i did think thry was scum until i saw the sterling flip, but he was either flipping scum or pr based on reactions. In the event that sterling flipped maf, my tunnel at the end was also a way of trying to protect him as I figured that if I brought some heat to the slot, they'd keep him and me alive thinking I'd continue to push on him the next day. thry is never flipping VT due to his reaction. scum and pr's react similarly as both are trying to conceal their true identity.

I don't think I'm convinced this is real. It looks to me like your push was meant to take heat away from Sterling. The fact that Thynhith was the NK also adds another layer of doubt.

why are you sheeping the same arguments made by other players?

Maybe I'm being a little selfish but ceejay's the only player on the Day 1 wagon that I have significant doubts over, clearing them would effectively solve the game from my POV.

Don't see any point trying to breadcrumb a report if that was the tack you were going with faust, if the town can divine their track target, so can the mafia.

there's a point because it could lead to autowin. anyway if it's not ceejay then i wouldn't be surprised if maestro is the second scum. his d2 has been incredibly anti-town (mass-claiming and advocating a short day) and i can see why he'd bus d1 since mafia know it's one of 3 setups and the last mafia is more than likely not a goon.

i'd still rather ceejay but if it's not him then get maestro. i'm still doubting that sterling puts his partner (fennec slot) on L-2.

[faüstiv]

why are you sheeping the same arguments made by other players?

I'm so confident, I'd say put me up for next if I'm wrong. I think if it's not you, then ...

Catching up.

scum are more likely to say this as they believe it makes them look towny. in truth, no town wants to offer themselves as a sacrificial lamb without good reason.

[faüstiv]

Man, if is faüstiv is Town, I'll owe him a huge apology.

I just lost my first scum game. It's rough.

There is a small chance I'd change my vote, but I really believe this slot (faüstiv) is scum.

were you following the game prior to joining and if so what were your thoughts?

[faüstiv]

Maybe I'm being a little selfish but ceejay's the only player on the Day 1 wagon that I have significant doubts over, clearing them would effectively solve the game from my POV.

Don't see any point trying to breadcrumb a report if that was the tack you were going with faust, if the town can divine their track target, so can the mafia.

it depends how effective the crumb is. anyway, i never did address your #498 (imo NOT a good post)

In post 493, thewingfan wrote:
Yes please elaborate.


I believe the crucial thing to look at with faust is how he acted immediately after my vote on Sterling. Despite my earlier inclination that he leant likely town; this overrides those impressions for me.

The central idea is that he lets slip that he is thinking as scum.

Take a look at how quickly he posts his #443 after my vote; less than a quarter of an hour later, and quite early in the morning for him (just after 7 a.m. his time). He's obviously genuinely flustered by my response, and I suppose you might say that also makes sense if he were town who really did think that Sterling was town with him. However:

In post 452, faüstiv wrote:
like i get that someone could be softing a cc of the setup (one which cop does not appear in) but still, sterling is uncc cop atm and so we should vote outside of him.


Here he shows that he has given thought to the idea that someone has soft-cced Sterling. To me, this was quite obviously Thynhith, given what he had posted and the context in which it was said. Now, instead of pursuing this thought or mentioning that he could even give me the benefit of the doubt for me voting who I think is a very poor claimant against a soft that he knows I had townread, he goes for a last-ditch attempt to get either one of me or Thyn eliminated.

Would faust be worried here as town? If he'd thought about it, not really, even if we had lost our cop town would be in a better situation with him gone if it gave us an as-good-as confirmed mafia. In a setup with four chances to hang two scum, a miselim for a PR is a good trade for town. Secondly, if he had seen the soft, why would he broadcast that fact to a mafia which might not be as up to speed with the game as he is, and therefore might miss out on seeing it? Town faust, in my opinion, keeps that observation to himself, even if he does trust Sterling's claim over Thyn's.

His following #459 and #460 seem like posts he'd only make if he were thinking from the frame of mind as mafia trying to seem like his continuing naturally; i.e. to try to consciously look like his views are consistent. Ironically, this was the cue to me that re-ignited my suspicion in him.
Again, if he were town he'd at least be considering my sharp change of tone was based on picking up on something that I'd rather not potentially share with mafia (he gives this very benefit of the doubt to catboi, who he never mentions), and not automatically assume I'm scum. He also knows me well enough, and my play-style to know I don't play scum-sided roles like that.

In conclusion, faust is by far the best candidate for elimination this phase, and in my opinion, no claims today are necessary. I'd genuinely be gobsmacked if this vote flips town.

I believe the crucial thing to look at with faust is how he acted immediately after my vote on Sterling. Despite my earlier inclination that he leant likely town; this overrides those impressions for me.

The central idea is that he lets slip that he is thinking as scum.

Take a look at how quickly he posts his #443 after my vote; less than a quarter of an hour later, and quite early in the morning for him (just after 7 a.m. his time). He's obviously genuinely flustered by my response, and I suppose you might say that also makes sense if he were town who really did think that Sterling was town with him. However:

I think this thought progression shows I'm town if anything, like I genuinely believed he was the cop at that stage. I'm disappointed that you didn't see that. The time I posted the response is largely irrelevant.

In post 452, faüstiv wrote:
like i get that someone could be softing a cc of the setup (one which cop does not appear in) but still, sterling is uncc cop atm and so we should vote outside of him.


Here he shows that he has given thought to the idea that someone has soft-cced Sterling. To me, this was quite obviously Thynhith, given what he had posted and the context in which it was said. Now, instead of pursuing this thought or mentioning that he could even give me the benefit of the doubt for me voting who I think is a very poor claimant against a soft that he knows I had townread, he goes for a last-ditch attempt to get either one of me or Thyn eliminated.

I think you've come to a conclusion that I'm scum and using whatever reachy anaysis you can to try and confirm this as fact in your head. Sterling was a bad day one kill because he was a PR CC. It was autowin if we voted outside and got his partner.

Would faust be worried here as town? If he'd thought about it, not really, even if we had lost our cop town would be in a better situation with him gone if it gave us an as-good-as confirmed mafia. In a setup with four chances to hang two scum, a miselim for a PR is a good trade for town. Secondly, if he had seen the soft, why would he broadcast that fact to a mafia which might not be as up to speed with the game as he is, and therefore might miss out on seeing it? Town faust, in my opinion, keeps that observation to himself, even if he does trust Sterling's claim over Thyn's.

His following #459 and #460 seem like posts he'd only make if he were thinking from the frame of mind as mafia trying to seem like his continuing naturally; i.e. to try to consciously look like his views are consistent. Ironically, this was the cue to me that re-ignited my suspicion in him.
Again, if he were town he'd at least be considering my sharp change of tone was based on picking up on something that I'd rather not potentially share with mafia (he gives this very benefit of the doubt to catboi, who he never mentions), and not automatically assume I'm scum. He also knows me well enough, and my play-style to know I don't play scum-sided roles like that.

You are failing to remember that I TR sterling at that point and thought he was the cop. If I was scum, why would I broadcast it to myself? I didn't even broadcast anything, you are just saying this because of the night kill. It's incredibly reachy analysis and it feels like you're using whatever you can conjure up to get me voted off. My D1 shows that I'm trying to solve the game. I stated that I strongly townread the Fennec slot when there was heat on him. Why would I do this as scum when he's an easy D1 vote? Why would I not keep the pressure up on catboi who was crumbling under my pressure and someone I could easily have got voted out if I wanted to? You are basing your analysis over a small portion of the game rather than the whole game.

Like I know this isn't a great defense but whatever. You're better than this (yes I know Maestro, I'm appealing to emotion) and you are usually more considered in your analysis than you are here. It's disappointing to me that you're choosing to pigeon-hole me into the remaining scum slot when my overall play doesn't make sense as scum and there are players on the table who make far more sense logically to be sterling's partner such as ceejay.

[faüstiv]

@ faüstiv If I shouldn't be sussing you (there's only one scum) who should be sussed?

if it's not you then it's ceejay or maestro. i think ceejay is more likely.

[faüstiv]

honestly ceejay, if you are town just give me something. the game is v close to being solved tbh. obv i would have liked to have seen more from fennec and maybe maestro but w/e, we all got priorities innit.

I dunno what to tell you.

I sort of agree with you on the game being close to solved. Right now I'm just set on all the mafia being in fennec/Thynhith/wingfan if Sterling really is somehow the cop.

I don't see myself going back on you and kkirigiri being town.

Worst case scenario I might need to reconsider my read on maestro and catboi later but right now I'm comfortable with them being town.

I think town's chances of winning this are reasonable even if I'm elimmed today but of course I want to win this optimally and mafia being voted out today will be nice.

Right now I'm just waiting for fennec and maestro to come back and say something about the claim or something.

That aside, agree that this could be just faustiv and I'll be surprised if it isn't him.

Waiting for everyone to check in first before voting him though.

what changed?

Now look here. If I'm mafia, the least I could have done yesterday is wait for a cc or something, and THEN hammer Sterling.

I would have at least wanted some info in exchange for a doomed partner or something.

Sure this certainly doesn't auto clear me, that's fine, but I just want to say I'm no dumbass and would certainly try to play optimally whenever I can.

Why did you hammer Sterling, out of curiosity?

It was mostly peer pressure, ngl.

I also scumread him and thought his claim was fake, so I would have voted him anyway once someone cced.

ugh i actually townread this...

[faüstiv]

VOTE: Catboi

yeah I've read everyone's ISO's again and I think it's you. I'll explain a bit later.

if Catboi hammers me, turbovote him tomorrow.

[faüstiv]

sterling's defense is underwhelming to me - he still isn't even really trying to address anything that's being said or give reads on anyone.

Thyn, are you willing to move to sterling?

I want to get a claim out of him.

Catboi makes this post (350). Sterling's next post is his cop claim.

1. catboi had been subtely pushing on the Sterling slot most of D1. Yes, he did vote for him at one point, but he voted others too, and his vote was not on Sterling prior to his claim.
2. catboi knows sterling doesn't survive beyond d2 because of the amount of heat on his slot. He's flexible in that he pushes on fennec and ceejay, two other hot votes d1, but imo doesn't committ himself to either of these votes so that he can vote for the player at the end of the day phase that gives him the best chance of winning this game.
3. Sterling's cop claim appears coached.
4. Sterling's 404:

Doctor please protect me

I'm fairly sure was also coached and was said to gauge reactions to flush out PR's. His partner likely suggested he come out with this line as the line itself looks out of place when you read the gamestate and Sterling's ISO (he never mentions 'doc' before this line, just 'PR').
5. Sterling barely acknowledging catboi's posts is also a red flag and he's choosing instead to focus and attack other players who have expressed an FOS on him.
6. Once Thry makes post 431

Alright I'll stop messing around.
We need to go ahead and elim him anyway. Everything about this screams fakeclaim. Seriously, claiming cop when you're a newbie who's been acting scummy throughout D1, put on E-2?
I suspected it when I read his first post, his second post is a scumslip. I was trying to bait it out of him, but how would a cop know that? Sterling knows that there is a doc in the game, despite it being one of two setups.
Conclusion: He or his teammate is a roleblocker.

coupled with him being the only one to openly question Sterling's claim from the off, I believe catboi saw that the best play was to bus his partner to gain towncred. It's scum!catboi's only real play at that point in the game. He could then kill Thry (likely PR) and there are enough scummy slots left in the game to likely achieve victory if scum.
7. Catboi's vote on Sterling feels more artificial than kkirigiri's, maestro's and ceejay's as their progression into FOS'ing Sterling feels more authentic. Catboi's vote reads more like getting rid of a scummy partner who has outlived his usefulness (catboi makes a post where he says "I hate when VI's flip PR") then does a 180. The other three showed more doubt in the legitimacy of Sterling's claim earlier than cat did.

There's a second reason which is more down to his overall posting style but I've got a meeting soon so I'll let you all digest this.

[faüstiv]

or to summarise (meeting delayed):

1. Sterling makes the claim.
2. Catboi's initial posts read to him "believing" the claim and acting annoyed about Sterling's contributions.
3. Sterling asks doc to protect him out of the blue (imo a coached line to flush out PRs)
4. Catboi does a 180 on believing Strling is newbie cop once he sees Thry's 431 and gives the reasoning of, "Having seen what Thry's put, I'm inclined to believe the claim to be fake." I believe he did this because he realised that Thry was a PR at the point he makes his final vote on Sterling and chooses to sac his partner, kill Thry in night and then can push a lynch on either me/fennec slot/ceejay (three FOS'sed players).
5. Ceejay in comparison, unvotes and acts more hesitant towards voting Steampunk once he's in danger of being voted out (given he's uncc PR). Is this what Sterling's partner does? I'm not feeling it.

I also want to ask others - why do you believe I am Sterling's partner?

[faüstiv]

post edit: i meant to say 'vote' not the L word. this is the first ever game i've played where this word is banned.

[faüstiv]

I don't really understand how mass-claiming here helps the town.
We're eliminating faust in this phase, no two ways about it. If anyone still needs convincing then I can think of three separate reasons why he makes overwhelmingly the most sense as Sterling's scum partner, and will elaborate on them if asked.
And if on the off-chance his play is him being town in some idiosyncratic way that I have not accounted for, letting the scum have a stab at the PRs with a chance of missing is beneficial to us in Day 3 scenarios (at that point claims

would

make more sense).

If you don't think my D1 was me trying to solve the game rather than me trying to blend in then I don't know what to say tbh.

Besides, the sterling vote was bad even though he flipped mafia.

We should always vote outside of PR claims for potential autowin.

The way I see it, I don't want to focus too much on the kill, but an experienced scum made that kill because

I did kinda suss he was a power role towards the end of the day (which is why I was a bit tunnelly, sorry bud).

I don't think thewingfan makes that kill.

I don't think it's kkirigiri or Maestro.

Coule be catboi but tbh I'm not feeling it.

It's either Wayward Son or ceejay. At the moment, I'm tempted to believe that ceejay voted his doomed scumbuddy to gain towncred, but I'll reread D1 again to establish a more solid read.

??????????????????????

sterling was doomed anyway, i thought that i might as well try and protect thry should sterling flip scum. my vote on Thry was right after the hammer. i thought townie pushing on another townie would keep both towns alive so maf can push a misvote on one of them.

fwiw i thought thry was either scum or PR but most likely scum.

[faüstiv]

or to summarise (meeting delayed):

1. Sterling makes the claim.
2. Catboi's initial posts read to him "believing" the claim and acting annoyed about Sterling's contributions.
3. Sterling asks doc to protect him out of the blue (imo a coached line to flush out PRs)
4. Catboi does a 180 on believing Strling is newbie cop once he sees Thry's 431 and gives the reasoning of, "Having seen what Thry's put, I'm inclined to believe the claim to be fake." I believe he did this because he realised that Thry was a PR at the point he makes his final vote on Sterling and chooses to sac his partner, kill Thry in night and then can push a lynch on either me/fennec slot/ceejay (three FOS'sed players).
5. Ceejay in comparison, unvotes and acts more hesitant towards voting Steampunk once he's in danger of being voted out (given he's uncc PR). Is this what Sterling's partner does? I'm not feeling it.

I also want to ask others - why do you believe I am Sterling's partner?

And, going out of order here to address this:

Yes, I picked up that Thyn was a power role, obviously. That was why I voted sterling, and I tried to be subtle and not reference this directly, but I probably failed at this. None of this actually makes me scum. If I were scum with sterling, I could have easily pretended to

not

get what Thyn was doing and push elsewhere, or push on him, to force him to hardclaim. Voting Sterling there would have been incredibly unnecessary as scum. It makes basically no sense why you think this makes me scum, rather than town who (correctly) figured out that Thyn was counter claiming sterling.

And just, in general, I don't throw my partners under the bus on Day 1 of a 9 player game. In NewD3 the setup is slanted toward being town-favored and losing a teammate Day 1 carries a significant risk of autoloss. The suggestion I play the way I around sterling as his partner is ludicrous. I am generally capable as scum an don't shoot myself directly in the foot with a play like that.

I think it makes sense as a play.

1. There was (I believe) 1 day left, so little time to change the course of the wagon.
2. Votes were piling on Stering.
3. Thry softed PR a couple of times which a scum would have picked up on. The only 'risk' is which setup we're playing, though mafia know it's 1 of 3. Thry could have flipped neighbour which isn't a powerful PR, but he was more likely to flip something like Jailkeeper or Tracker (given that he questioned whether there was a doc in the game on more than one occassion, it's likely he knew there wasn't a cop or doc in game).
4. There are three obtainable misvotes if you are scum (me, ceejay, wayward son). Voting all three wins scum the game if scum aren't in ceejay/wayward.
5. I think the bus play makes sense as scum. I just don't see how sterling survives that vote as there were enough players that questioned the claim in the first place. Going against the vote puts the heat on your slot, as evidenced by 3 people voting me right off the bat, and you have built enough towncred that, if you are scum, you are in a good position to win the game.

[faüstiv]

If I were scum with sterling, I could have easily pretended to not get what Thyn was doing and push elsewhere, or push on him, to force him to hardclaim. Voting Sterling there would have been incredibly unnecessary as scum. It makes basically no sense why you think this makes me scum, rather than town who (correctly) figured out that Thyn was counter claiming sterling.

Like this doesn't make sense as a scumplay if you are scum. Sterling doesn't survive the game given he's a cop claim. Once he's claimed cop and fished out a counter claim (or a reaction which implies someone is PR) then he has outlived his usefulness. Sterling becomes expendable the minute he claims cop. Why then as scum would you push on Thry to get him to hardclaim? This would only put unecessary heat on your own slot.

[faüstiv]

All those posts were made when Sterling was doomed. As I said, I thought Thry was PR or scum. In the event of him being PR, I was hoping that maf wouldn't notice his soft and kill outside. In the event that Sterling was cop (which I believed to be the case over Thry being PR if I'm honest) then we get a maf and he'd be someone I pushed on today should I have been kept alive.

You have said yourself that semantics alone aren't great for finding scum (which I sort of disagree with but I digress). Everyone plays town differently. This is how I play town. Attempting something to try and keep a potential PR alive (depending on the sterling flip) is a pro-town play, no matter how ridiculous you think the play is.

I don't need to apologise for my play because I played that D1 end in the way I intended on playing it. The only thing I need to apologise for is reading Thry as scum and Sterling as cop.

If I may ask you a question, what are your thoughts on kkirigiri and ceejay doing a complete 180 on their read on me?

[faüstiv]

You are failing to remember that I TR sterling at that point and thought he was the cop

.

Spoiler:

"I'll cut through your words!"

I never once scumread you purely for townreading and defending Sterling. My scumread on you hinges purely on how you dealt with my vote on him at the end of the phase.

If I was scum, why would I broadcast it to myself?

I didn't even broadcast anything

, you are just saying this because of the night kill. It's incredibly reachy analysis and it feels like you're using whatever you can conjure up to get me voted off. My D1 shows that I'm trying to solve the game. I stated that I strongly townread the Fennec slot when there was heat on him. Why would I do this as scum when he's an easy D1 vote?

You specifically brought up the fact that you saw a soft claim. My point here is that you were thinking about how to pretend to be a town player as mafia, and forgot that saying that out loud would actually be detrimental to the town. As I've said before, I think a town player does their best to conceal the soft before the end of the day phase. After you've mentioned that, how would you applying heat to Thynhith matter at all once Sterling flipped scum? He's pretty much confirmed to be town to the rest of the village regardless.

Why would I not keep the pressure up on catboi who was

crumbling under my pressure

and someone I could easily have got voted out if I wanted to? You are basing your analysis over a small portion of the game rather than the whole game.

All I saw was that he was acting in a way that was consistent with a town player who disagreed with your thought processes. You also say you could have gotten catboi voted out, but who would have voted with you?

Like I know this isn't a great defense but whatever. You're better than this (yes I know Maestro, I'm appealing to emotion) and you are usually more considered in your analysis than you are here. It's disappointing to me that you're

choosing to pigeon-hole me into the remaining scum slot

when my overall play doesn't make sense as scum and there are players on the table who make far more sense logically to be sterling's partner such as ceejay.

Again, I actually thought you were more likely to be town than mafia for most of Day 1, and I only changed my opinion once I realised I couldn't come up with a reasonable explanation for your actions at the end of the day as town. If anything, I'd done my best to give you the benefit of the doubt, as before your posts had had enough internal consistency to them (even if I mainly didn't agree with them) that I could see them coming from you as town. Now I'm unable to do that, and am yet to see a good enough explanation from you that's able to change my mind.

Also, if you really truly are town here and I've got this wrong, then you need to revise your scattergun approach to where you're placing your FOS. At the moment, I've seen you try to cast doubt on almost every remaining living player, almost as if you're casting out your line to see which approach of yours will get a bite. In my view, I think there are some players that are much more likely to flip scum than others if I were to assume you ere town. If you could put forward a cogent argument for one or maybe two players to be better eliminations thn you, then I might give your case some more thought.

I think my play makes sense.

Also, if you really truly are town here and I've got this wrong, then you need to revise your scattergun approach to where you're placing your FOS. At the moment, I've seen you try to cast doubt on almost every remaining living player, almost as if you're casting out your line to see which approach of yours will get a bite. In my view, I think there are some players that are much more likely to flip scum than others if I were to assume you ere town. If you could put forward a cogent argument for one or maybe two players to be better eliminations thn you, then I might give your case some more thought

I did until I read ISO's and D1 again and come up with a 'cogent argument'. I think catboi is the remaining mafia. I shouldn't have FOS'sed random players D2 start but I was tired and bored tbh. I want you to read my argument on Catboi and read his ISO and come to your own conclusions on the slot.

[faüstiv]

Basically, we're not going to win this game through role claims, and I actually find the frustration that the suggestion we claim to be suspicious? It has a hint of scum salt at what he perceives as an unfair strategy.

Hang me for it then. Didn't care when I got hanged for it before. Don't now. It was an honest question about game philosophy on this site. If I can expect every game I enter to jump to role claims I have no interest in playing here.

I'm used to games that are much less formularic. I prefer to get into the nuts and bolts of a game, figure out who's who through pressure and detective work. Mass claims in my opinion always favor the town. Don't have to be town to consider winning unfairly to be not cool. If you don't mind games like that that's cool and all.

Also-I like chaos. Have a reputation for being chaotic, and mass role claims take chaos out of it.

tl;dr. I care less about winning than I do having fun and the game being fair.

I like the way you think...

In my experience, forum mafia games rely more on 'detective work' and less on role claims.

[faüstiv]

I did until I read ISO's and D1 again and come up with a 'cogent argument'. I think catboi is the remaining mafia. I shouldn't have FOS'sed random players D2 start but I was tired and bored tbh. I want you to read my argument on Catboi and read his ISO and come to your own conclusions on the slot.

I'll give it another read I suppose, but instinctively I didn't like it.

Please explain why.

[faüstiv]

Have you considered the possibility that he's not the baddie and whomever is killed Thryn as a framejob?

I mean he screamed up and down late D1 that Thryn was bad. Steampunk got hanged. If he's bad why the bleepity bleep would he go off and kill the player he wanted to hang?

Either he didn't kill Thryn or he'd have to have schemed out being able to point to that argument, which he hasn't.

Yes, my second most scum read slot is ceejay. I'd still rather vote faüstiv atm.

Why do you think ceejay is mafia, given that you agreed with me when I said that I thought that one of his lines looked towny?

[faüstiv]

I mean of course I want to survive. I'm town, and voting me is a waste.

Also isn't it convenient that no one thought I could be sterling's partner until today? It's something you said yourself in 276.

probably not sterling because it feels more like you're defending someone you know is town with your defense of him

fennec or ceejay would be my guess off the top of my head

[faüstiv]

i'd still rather ceejay but if it's not him then get maestro. i'm still doubting that sterling puts his partner (fennec slot) on L-2.

Like I know this isn't a great defense but whatever. You're better than this (yes I know Maestro, I'm appealing to emotion) and you are usually more considered in your analysis than you are here. It's disappointing to me that you're choosing to pigeon-hole me into the remaining scum slot when my overall play doesn't make sense as scum and there are players on the table who make far more sense logically to be sterling's partner such as ceejay.

@ faüstiv If I shouldn't be sussing you (there's only one scum) who should be sussed?

if it's not you then it's ceejay or maestro. i think ceejay is more likely.

VOTE: Catboi

yeah I've read everyone's ISO's again and I think it's you. I'll explain a bit later.

if Catboi hammers me, turbovote him tomorrow.

Yes, okay, nevermind, now that I actually have context here I don't think pushing me is towny. faustiv is flailing. He's accusing anyone and anything in the hopes of getting a wagon on someone that isn't him, and since pople weren't biting on ceejay, he switched tack to try to push me.

I was on ceejay for what? Less than a day? I said I FOS'sed him last night, then all of today I have FOS'sed and cased you. You're reasoning makes 0 sense.

[faüstiv]

*your

[faüstiv]

Yes, okay, nevermind, now that I actually have context here I don't think pushing me is towny. faustiv is flailing. He's accusing anyone and anything in the hopes of getting a wagon on someone that isn't him, and since pople weren't biting on ceejay, he switched tack to try to push me.

You did this with me on Day 1 by the way. You misrepped my argument, voted me then changed to ceejay when you realised you couldn't get me voted off day 1.

So if the way I'm playing is scummy then the way you're playing is also scummy.

[faüstiv]

Now look here. If I'm mafia, the least I could have done yesterday is wait for a cc or something, and THEN hammer Sterling.

I would have at least wanted some info in exchange for a doomed partner or something.

Sure this certainly doesn't auto clear me, that's fine, but I just want to say I'm no dumbass and would certainly try to play optimally whenever I can.

Why did you hammer Sterling, out of curiosity?

It was mostly peer pressure, ngl.

I also scumread him and thought his claim was fake, so I would have voted him anyway once someone cced.

ugh i actually townread this...

This, also, is a ridiculously shallow reason for a townread. It's completely implausible that someone sees these two lines and decides to back off a previous scumread. It's basically a nothing explanation that I could see coming from either alignment, and I think someone genuinely solving the game would be more skeptical of this answer. More likely it's just an attempt to pull an unexpected/'surprising' move to get people to go "but why would scum do that?" (which tbf i am susceptible to)

Or rather you are attacking my townreads because you are mafia, just like how you misrepped my arguments D1, just how you attacked my Fennech TR in post 328, like how you attacked ceejay's reads etc.

[faüstiv]

Yes, okay, nevermind, now that I actually have context here I don't think pushing me is towny. faustiv is flailing. He's accusing anyone and anything in the hopes of getting a wagon on someone that isn't him, and since pople weren't biting on ceejay, he switched tack to try to push me.

You did this with me on Day 1 by the way. You misrepped my argument, voted me then changed to ceejay when you realised you couldn't get me voted off day 1.

So if the way I'm playing is scummy then the way you're playing is also scummy.

Okay now you're literally lying lol

I changed off you because I realized I was voting you more for being annoyed at you than anything else

further the way I played it was not while directly under threat of being eliminated

If that's the case then why did you answer 276 in a way that implies that you thought I was mafia:

In post 275, faüstiv wrote:
In post 273, catboi wrote:
There's someone here dealing with pressure awfully and it's not me

OK.

If I'm scum, who is my partner?

probably not sterling because it feels more like you're defending someone you know is town with your defense of him

fennec or ceejay would be my guess off the top of my head

I bought it at the time, but now I think you used it as an excuse to move off my wagon because no one else jumped on it.

[faüstiv]

Now look here. If I'm mafia, the least I could have done yesterday is wait for a cc or something, and THEN hammer Sterling.

I would have at least wanted some info in exchange for a doomed partner or something.

Sure this certainly doesn't auto clear me, that's fine, but I just want to say I'm no dumbass and would certainly try to play optimally whenever I can.

Why did you hammer Sterling, out of curiosity?

It was mostly peer pressure, ngl.

I also scumread him and thought his claim was fake, so I would have voted him anyway once someone cced.

ugh i actually townread this...

This, also, is a ridiculously shallow reason for a townread. It's completely implausible that someone sees these two lines and decides to back off a previous scumread. It's basically a nothing explanation that I could see coming from either alignment, and I think someone genuinely solving the game would be more skeptical of this answer. More likely it's just an attempt to pull an unexpected/'surprising' move to get people to go "but why would scum do that?" (which tbf i am susceptible to)

I backed off after rereading his ISO tbh. His progression on the Sterling vote looked like a conflicted townie unsure on whether to hammer a 'scummy' PR claim or not.

[faüstiv]

Please explain why.

Well the main issue I have is that the crux of your defence of Sterling relied on the assumption that no-one could be his partner because no-one seemed to be coaching him. You stuck to this argument even after I questioned it.
Now part of your framework for the timeline of catboi's posts involves him specifically coaching him to make a post asking for the doctor to save him.

So you're saying catboi, an experienced player who has been actively engaging with the game throughout, would not be coaching his partner up until one specific post which allows catboi to bus him.

To be frank, I just don't see it.

I'll maybe say something more tomorrow morning, but I can already feel my brain slowing down, so I'll probably call it a night here myself.

I'm saying that the cop claim and the "doctor please save me" line appear to be coached, and the "bus" only came when sterling was doomed and after Thry softed PR.

Maybe he wasn't coached at any point prior to the cop claim, but I'm certain that he doesn't claim cop off his own back, and the "doctor please save me" line was incongruent to the gamestate at the time, which leads me to believe that he was told to say this line and mention "doc" specifically to fish for reactions, given that he only referred to "PR" and not "doc" before that point.

I believe the Sterling bus was more an opportune play by catboi rather than it being planned, but I think the two lines I've stated above Sterling was told to say, yes.

[faüstiv]

and why catboi specifically?

Well i don't see it being Maestro since he was dead-set on Sterling all day and never really veered off his vote/FOS on him. Sure, he's been anti-town today but w/e, makes no sense he busses scum from the off.

kkirigiri started the bandwagon that led to him being voted off and I'm generally good at reading him (and p sure he's town).

Thewingfan is blatant town.

If my theory is correct re. coaching then Fennec wasn't even around at that point, so that eliminates him as a partner, and even so I don't think Sterling puts his partner on L-2 when Fennec was a scummy slot at the time.

Which leaves ceejay/catboi and idk I feel like ceejay's progression onto the sterling hammer feels more authentic than catboi's latching onto the bw.

[faüstiv]

I don't know why I'm doing this actually

I think flipping faustiv here ends the game

his arguments right now are legitimately some of the worst I've ever heard in 12 years of playing mafia - he is very obviously unable to string together coherent reasoning for his reads and they fall apart at the slightest questioning

going back and forth with him is pointless and no one else is doing anything

i'm going to hammer if no one comes in here screaming any objections

You

are

flustrered and I don't get why, since you're clearly not being voted off today. I've refuted everything you've said, you're the one choosing to ignore my points and just cry out "bad argument!" You have also completely ignored the case I made on you.

I'm dying today but I urge everyone to reread catboi's ISO tonight. I'm pretty certain he's the last scum.

[faüstiv]

Like catboi nitpicks at little bits and cries "your argument is bad!" and that's all he does.

He makes no effort to answer more damning elements of my scumread on him.
He makes no effort to refute the case I made on him.
He makes no effort to make any sort of rebuttal on any of my points.

He manucfactures arguments by misconstruing what people say to use those things against them.

Like now he has just 'attacked' thewingfan. He has to, because he needs to create doubt as to the legitimacy of his town alignment.

[faüstiv]

He also hasn't stated why he thinks I'm sterling's partner.

[faüstiv]

I don't know why I'm doing this actually

I think flipping faustiv here ends the game

his arguments right now are legitimately some of the worst I've ever heard in 12 years of playing mafia - he is very obviously unable to string together coherent reasoning for his reads and they fall apart at the slightest questioning

going back and forth with him is pointless and no one else is doing anything

i'm going to hammer if no one comes in here screaming any objections

screams

I object!

[faüstiv]

He also hasn't stated why he thinks I'm sterling's partner.

He chooses which parts of my case/posts to attack and parts of my case he feels he can easily refutre and completely ignores other, more damning elements of my case. He has completely ignored my #585 for example.

[faüstiv]

just one thing - do people actually townread catboi and if so, why?

might as well get this out there before me 'ed gets chopped off.

[faüstiv]

First, have you looked at the post for this game that shows the setup? It kind of feels like you haven't. No shame if so, but really go back and look at it.

This setup is not one that can be broken by mass claiming. It's designed that way. So any concern about it being "unfair" is out the window. That is the way basically all games are designed and run on this site, and there is a lot of knowledge that has been passed down through the years on how to do this. I understand that in other communities, setups are often not as balanced as so can often be broken by claiming, so people develop a resentment of claiming that leads to them essentially throwing against their team. It happened on epic mafia, it happened in the public lobbies I've seen for mafia.gg. I don't really think this is a good way of playing the game, though. It's essentially choosing to play badly to compensate for the fact that you're playing a poorly designed setup.

I personally find intentionally hamstringing yourself to make a game 'fair' to be incredibly unfun. my idea of a fun game is one where both teams try hard to win and make the game challenging for one another. Going "I'm going to play badly so scum feel they have a chance" feels wrong and I'd be pretty upset if I played someone who said that.

At any rate, games being broken by mass claim is not even remotely a concern here. Even with claiming being a perfectly accepted strategy, the normal queue still runs something like a 60% scum win rate. You are never going to have to worry about claims making games unfair. towns have a hard enough time here as it is.

See its the other way where I play I would guess 60% of the time the town wins out where I normally play. I don't think the issue is balance. But I think everyone crafts their games with the intent that the number one advantage for the baddies is their ability to hide, and I would say that 95% of the time no one suggests a mass role claim unless either things are extremely dire, OR the game is so badly crafted that yeah it needs to be done to jailbreak the game.

I'm just not interested in playing games were every single time this discussion comes up. So I'll see this one out and then after that, I'm done here.

D2 massclaim is only really necessary if the scum PR is killed D1, a villager is killed N1 and there's an investigative role with an alive inno D2.

[faüstiv]

just one thing - do people actually townread catboi and if so, why?

might as well get this out there before me 'ed gets chopped off.

Thing about catboi that I'm struggling to place is that his vote on Sterling is possibly the turning point that seals his fate. I don't think Sterling's 'doomed' otherwise, as you put it.

If he's mafia, does he really think that that's the only move he has to win from that position? Also, earlier in the game, what could his motivation for discrediting your reason for townreading Sterling be?

I don't think it's the 'only' move he had, but it's a move which puts him in a stronger position and a move which made sense in the gamestate.

I think him discouraging my TR on sterling is largely irrelevant.

What's your thoughts on sterling barely acknowledging catboi's FOS on him whilst attacking others such as yourself and Maestro for scumreading him?

[faüstiv]

I felt like he was pretty afraid of scumreading me, only attacking me briefly due to him thinking I was counterclaiming him directly. I got the impression he tried to ignore my real reasons for suspecting him. I don't know what conclusion I can draw with his interactions on catboi based on that, if Sterling was ignoring him too.

I mean he did vote you...

Honestly the thing I'm scared of most at the moment is if it's not faust nor one of the other players not on Sterling's BW.
Both wingfan and Wayward look like votebait and I hope I get answers to them before the phase is hammered.

If you think the game goes beyond my elimination then unvote me and use me to help figure this game out (fwiw I'm fairly sure it's catboi but I would like to affirm Wayward Son as a townread as I agree that he's votebait). Tbh I do have a theory about this game but I'm reluctant to post it at this stage.

[faüstiv]

He also hasn't stated why he thinks I'm sterling's partner.

LOL FUCK OFF

Explain it to the room then. If you think it's because I defended him then that's a horseshit, myopic view. If you think it's because I scumread Thry then it's also horseshit. I can be town and have these opinions.

Your response to everything is "horseshit", "dumb argument", "flustered scum" without actually addressing any of my points beyond that. You have still failed to address my theory of Sterling's two coached lines and why I believe that it was you who coached him to say those lines.

Whatever, I just have to hope that the town remember my arguments and votes you out tomorrow. One person on my BW hasn't even posted since D2 start. It's frustrating but what can I do.

[faüstiv]

i'm sorry that was inappropriate of me in a newbie game but that is the single most BS argument in a heaping pile of BS

I have explained multiple times why I think faustiv is scum for how he's arguing, I shouldn't have to reiterate what other people have pointed out about his defense of sterling on day 1

this is just throwing shit at the wall at me, trying to get anything to stick, making ridiculous demands

1. townreading mafia is not scummy.
2. defending mafia when you think they are town is not scummy.
3. I couldn't partner sterling with anyone d1. Now I think I was wrong with my initial theory and think he wasn't coached until #364.
4. I had no reason to doubt the cop claim. If you think that I should have then lol. I think it's clear that my reaction to sterling's cop claim comes from an uninformed viewpoint.
5. my vote on Thry comes just before the hammer. Yes I pushed on him because he was either PR or mafia. If he's PR, then I thought that mafia wouldn't notice and may keep him alive, then I could 180 my read once sterling is killed and a villager is offed.

[faüstiv]

just one thing - do people actually townread catboi and if so, why?

might as well get this out there before me 'ed gets chopped off.

Thing about catboi that I'm struggling to place is that his vote on Sterling is possibly the turning point that seals his fate. I don't think Sterling's 'doomed' otherwise, as you put it.

If he's mafia, does he really think that that's the only move he has to win from that position? Also, earlier in the game, what could his motivation for discrediting your reason for townreading Sterling be?

I don't think it's the 'only' move he had, but it's a move which puts him in a stronger position and a move which made sense in the gamestate.

I think him discouraging my TR on sterling is largely irrelevant.

What's your thoughts on sterling barely acknowledging catboi's FOS on him whilst attacking others such as yourself and Maestro for scumreading him?

This is circumstantial and best but is not really accurately representing the facts at all - maestro was the most aggressive sterling pusher so of course he OMGUSed him but sterling in fact ignored kiri and didn't push back on her UNTIL he had made his fakeclaim and was clearly in desperation mode. I also wasn't

as

aggressively scumreading him, and it makes sense that he wouldn't push back on every single voter

this theory also doesn't really gel with the notion that I coached sterling specifically to say the "doctor protect me line" but also somehow was too absent minded to tell him not to interact with me?

all of this stuff is logically fallacious - you're just arguing that

because

a move would have been good for me to make as scum, that makes me scum

and that's not how mafia works

more often than not the person doing the protown thing is going to be town

this theory also doesn't really gel with the notion that I coached sterling specifically to say the "doctor protect me line" but also somehow was too absent minded to tell him not to interact with me?

Why would you? Why would you need to say "oh by the way, you need to interact with me?" Townplayers can pick up on partner tells if two players' interactions look forced.

I don't believe Sterling chooses to claim cop on his own voalition. I also believe that he was told to mention the 'doctor' specifically in order to gauge reactions. I believe both the claim and the doc line come from an experienced partner.

all of this stuff is logically fallacious - you're just arguing that

because

a move would have been good for me to make as scum, that makes me scum

Already addressed this.

I don't think Maestro busses his partner from the off, outs a 'scumslip' argument and refuses to release the pedal from the accelerator.

I don't think thewingfan co-ordinates that play with Sterling and he's practically locktown anyway.

The Fennec slot wasn't even here when he made that claim so if my theory is true, then it means that he can't be the partner.

It could be kkirigiri, but reading his progression on his fos on sterling, I don't believe that comes from him being Sterling's partner. Sure, he theoretically

could

be, but occam's razor plus having played a bunch of games with him tells me that he's town here.

Which leaves you or ceejay, and I think ceejay's overall hesitancy on hammering sterling comes from a town mindset who was unsure about the legitimacy of the claim but also was apprehensive about hammering a potential cop. I believe this shows that ceejay's mindset comes from an uninformed viewpoint.

Once someone flips scum, I'm going to look to see if there are partner-tells, and based on reasonings which I have already highlighted on numerous occasions, I believe that the partner is you.

[faüstiv]

He also hasn't stated why he thinks I'm sterling's partner.

LOL FUCK OFF

Explain it to the room then. If you think it's because I defended him then that's a horseshit, myopic view. If you think it's because I scumread Thry then it's also horseshit. I can be town and have these opinions.

Your response to everything is "horseshit", "dumb argument", "flustered scum" without actually addressing any of my points beyond that. You have still failed to address my theory of Sterling's two coached lines and why I believe that it was you who coached him to say those lines.

Whatever, I just have to hope that the town remember my arguments and votes you out tomorrow. One person on my BW hasn't even posted since D2 start. It's frustrating but what can I do.

it's not that you had those opinions it's that your logic for justifying your reads was incredibly poor such that is far more likely to be a manufactured read than a genuine one. your explanation for why you were scumreading thyn is internally contradictory and looks like you making something up after the fact to try to cover your ass, it does not make sense as a legitimate view. your reads today have shifted all over the place in a way that looks like you are desperate for a wagon to stick to someone that isn't you and you are trying to find a case that people might actually follow. I do not believe your reason for reversing your read on ceejay, it is incredibly shallow and looks more like an attempted pivot when you realized that was getting traction. I do not believe your scumread on me is at all genuine given how contrived your arguments are and how you are relying primarily on rhetorical to argue i am scum rather than actual logic. your play thus far is indicative of a survival-oriented mindset that suggests your main priority is simply living to another day. if you were town who was truly confident I was scum I think you'd be perfectly okay with going down here because after all you've already solved the game for everyone, right?

you have been able to explain none of your reads in a satisfactory fashion

you keep accusing me of not actually answering your arguments but you're not actually making real arguments

Why would I be happy about being hammered as either allignment? I've come here to play mafia. That's complete crap and you know it.

Not going to address the rest of your post because I think you are mafia trying to discredit my argument rather than town stating that my arguments are in bad faith. I think I have explained my viewpoint clearly and it's up to the town to choose whether they believe that I'm right or not once I die.

[faüstiv]

i'm sorry that was inappropriate of me in a newbie game but that is the single most BS argument in a heaping pile of BS

I have explained multiple times why I think faustiv is scum for how he's arguing, I shouldn't have to reiterate what other people have pointed out about his defense of sterling on day 1

this is just throwing shit at the wall at me, trying to get anything to stick, making ridiculous demands

1. townreading mafia is not scummy.
2. defending mafia when you think they are town is not scummy.
3. I couldn't partner sterling with anyone d1. Now I think I was wrong with my initial theory and think he wasn't coached until #364.
4. I had no reason to doubt the cop claim. If you think that I should have then lol. I think it's clear that my reaction to sterling's cop claim comes from an uninformed viewpoint.
5. my vote on Thry comes just before the hammer. Yes I pushed on him because he was either PR or mafia. If he's PR, then I thought that mafia wouldn't notice and may keep him alive, then I could 180 my read once sterling is killed and a villager is offed.

yes mafia never defend their partners

next you'll say "iF i WaS mAfIa I wOuLd HaVe BuSsEd"

you tried to argue sterling had no partners when it was convenient for you but that's because the very obvious answer is that he was partners with YOU

I had no reason to doubt the cop claim.

Yes I pushed on him because he was either PR or mafia

This, in and of itself, is reason to doubt the cop claim. I think if you were actually town you would have realized this. But you can't keep your own story straight.

This, in and of itself, is reason to doubt the cop claim. I think if you were actually town you would have realized this. But you can't keep your own story straight.

Already highlighted the fact that I believed Sterling's cop claim.

[faüstiv]

I went to look up a post I saw that has stuck with me about how you almost never see scum voting on a Day 1 wagon that kills scum in a 9 player game, but it doesn't cite any actual evidence unfortunately. to me that's where faustiv's defense of "defending mafia isn't scummy" falls flat - in a 9 player games losing a partner Day 1 is extremely costly and so I think he had every reason to try to defend sterling the way he did, and once he did so he was pot committed and had basically no believable way of changing his stance so he had to go all in. the reasoning was basically atrocious, let me pull it up again:

hi

Steampunk is town. I did want to push on him to get more of a feel for his slot, but his playstyle is more in line with newbie town rather than newbie scum. Steampunk is clearly not considering the content of his posts, which has lead to confusion around his role PM in #22 and the private thread in #80. His haphazard voting style is also in line with newbie-town rather than newbie-scum. From experience, newbie scum are more likely to be more tepid and reserved and try and resist placing votes (especially ones controversial in the gamestate such as the Maestro vote who is a widely townread player) as they don't want to fall under suspicion. Whilst Steampunk's reasons for his votes don't make much sense (imo), the fact that he

is

throwing votes around on a whim suggests that he's not overly concerned on what he posts and whether his posts are coming off as scummy. I also believe that if Sterling is mafia, then his partner can only be Fennec (TheftOFARose) or Rockhopper as I believe everyone else in the game would have at least coached him on how to play the day as mafia to avoid arousing suspicion. Theft, being a new player himself and Rockhopper being inactive are the only two possibiliites I have for his partner with the above logic in mind. Therefore, with this in mind, coupled with me believing that Steampunk is town, means that he should be immune from today's vote as we don't gain a lot of information from his elimination.

Look at how contrived this is. He's basically bending himself into a pretzel trying to justify that read when none of it really holds up. There's a lot of very bad an incorrect assumptions about how newbie scum play, and stuff like "he is not considering the contents of his posts" doesn't actually

mean

anything - why are scum more likely to consider the contests of their posts? I have seen

plenty

of careless newbie scum. The argument of coaching was bad at the time and I called it out, is still bad. It relies on a theoretical assumption that just...isn't true to how scum in newbie games operate. The idea that sterling's partner would have micromanaged his every move was obviously wrong and in general most scum aren't nearly that organizaed, but it's really just a "too scummy to be scum" argument, but dressed up in more words than that.

The entire thing reads like faustiv set out

wanting

to write a paragraph calling sterling town and then looking for reasons to justify it.

It wasn't costly and I think bussing was the play made at the end of D1. I don't really want to explain why I believe sterling was bussed just yet, but I will at some point.

Look at how contrived this is. He's basically bending himself into a pretzel trying to justify that read when none of it really holds up. There's a lot of very bad an incorrect assumptions about how newbie scum play, and stuff like "he is not considering the contents of his posts" doesn't actually mean anything - why are scum more likely to consider the contests of their posts? I have seen plenty of careless newbie scum. The argument of coaching was bad at the time and I called it out, is still bad. It relies on a theoretical assumption that just...isn't true to how scum in newbie games operate. The idea that sterling's partner would have micromanaged his every move was obviously wrong and in general most scum aren't nearly that organizaed, but it's really just a "too scummy to be scum" argument, but dressed up in more words than that.

The entire thing reads like faustiv set out wanting to write a paragraph calling sterling town and then looking for reasons to justify it.

Based on my experience, sterling's play is more likely to come from newbie-town. Sterling was newbie-scum this game. I got it wrong, but I don't think it was a terrible thought process to have at the time. Through experience, there is some communication between scum in game, and as I have stated, I believe this has been the case in this game, albeit not at that moment in time.

You're just using analysis I made on a player against me because said player has now flipped scum. It wasn't a terrible analysis to have on the player at that point in the game.

[faüstiv]

I don't believe Sterling chooses to claim cop on his own voalition. I also believe that he was told to mention the 'doctor' specifically in order to gauge reactions. I believe both the claim and the doc line come from an experienced partner.

Even a TOS player surely understands the concept of claiming a power role when under immediate threat of elimination. Is not an equally adequate theory of what happened that Sterling looked at the setup, saw that a cop was a possibility, and claimed that because it was the best way to induce the town to hesitate over voting him out? 'Doc please protect me' is a common clichéd line you might hear from players claiming cop in the classic 7-player mafia setup. It's possible that this was the setup of forum mafia that Sterling had prior experience with, or perhaps he simply saw that in one of the setups involving a cop, there'd also be a doctor, and therefore that would help bolster the narrative of his claim.

It's not that I find some of your theories on catboi implausible, it's that you act like certain parts of his game that have more innocent explanations that are at least as likely as the villainous ones you push, can only ever point to him being scum.

I have far more aspects of your play that I struggle to fit into a town framework than I do for catboi. There is a naïve part of me that wants to believe you're being genuine and unvote you, but I can't really ignore the facts of the game.

I think you and I can both agree that live mafia (which is what TOS is) is a different beast to forum mafia. This setup is quite complex compared to most live mafia setups and I think even a semi-experienced live mafia player would need some guidance on how to approach a forum mafia game and setup as scum, especially if it's his first time playing such a setup on a forum alongside players with a wide degree of experience.

Sure, sterling could claim cop under pressure as scum without coaching, that I get, but the doc line? I really don't think that comes from Sterling and I don't think it's as innocent as you proclaim. I just can't understand why Sterling makes reference to 'PR' but then explicitly mentions a 'doc'. It's just a very odd line in the context of the gamestate at that point and it's why I believe he was coached to mention a specific role to gauge reactions to fish out a PR.

Sure Sterling could do both things off his own back, but does he actually do both things off his own back? I really don't feel it.

[faüstiv]

if i'm not hammered within the next couple of hours then i'll address #626, but need to head out.

[faüstiv]

Based on my experience, sterling's play is more likely to come from newbie-town. Sterling was newbie-scum this game. I got it wrong, but I don't think it was a terrible thought process to have at the time. Through experience, there is some communication between scum in game, and as I have stated, I believe this has been the case in this game, albeit not at that moment in time.

You're just using analysis I made on a player against me because said player has now flipped scum. It wasn't a terrible analysis to have on the player at that point in the game.

Also this is literally a non-answer - "yes I was wrong but I believed it was right so it was good analysis and not bad and scummy"

you keep accusing me of not answering my points but you can't give a satisfactory answer to anything I'm saying

Sterling's D1 play is more likely to come from newbie-town rather than newbie-scum in my experience. I don't really know what more you want me to say.

[faüstiv]

Ok, first thing I want to say is that the back and forth between us yesterday got a little heated from both sides so apologies for that.

This is actually fairly blatant early-game distancing from faustiv. I think the ealy vote about sterling "not reacting" to maestro is a bit panicky - the comment about "lack of reaction" is fairly telling, as not much time at all had passed between maestro accusing sterling of scumslipping and fausiv making that post - (I noted it was less than an hour) I think that reaction shows a bit of panic that sterling might truly HAVE slipped and was a dead man walking and he was trying to get out in front of it. When he came back and actually started posting, faustiv shifted gears and made some very awkward comments where he didn't commit to the read - "i'm still unsure of his alignment but he's not defending himself as strong as i would expect a town player to", and then unvoting him a short time later when sterling really had done nothing worthy of being unvoted. These were the posts between 88 and 102:

catboi is adding 1+1 and coming up with 11 here. Let me explain my thought process:

Maestro makes the accusation in post #45. Sterling's first post after the reaction was

What does SRS mean?

(#49). My thought at the time was that a townie would have defended themselves immediately against the accusation and #49 struck me as evasive which I found to be an odd first post at the time. I then thought that, on the chance it

was

a scumslip, I could ask probing questions to try and get him to 'slip' again if he's a scum unsure about game mechanics.

My 68

what's your experience with mafia steampunk? as in what variants have you played and on what format (face-to-face, forum, epicmafia/town of salem etc.)

Was me trying to ascertain if he'd ever played forum mafia before as, which I've already highlighted, forum mafia games are different to live mafia games. If he is a first time forum mafia player and made some sort of townslip in any of his responses then sure, I could clear him. Alternatively, if he doesn't know the game mechanics he could scumslip and then we could vote him out.

This exchange I had with you (catboi):

In post 82, catboi wrote:
I think sterling's reaction to maestro feels over the top but can just aseasily come from a newer player who's not used to people making social reads getting upset they'e being accused so strongly.

VOTE: faustiv

I do think trying to string up sterling for a "lack of reaction" to Maestro's scumslip accusation feels opportunist - it had been less than an hour since Maestro posted it and sterling was clearly still catching up. On some other site's there's a higher emphasis on real time interaction but on here that amount of time lag isn't really a big deal and him trying to act like it was incriminating doesn't sit right with me. I saw scum use a similar argument in a recent game (although they were actually bussing their buddy in that instance). Then when sterling did come back and provided an explanation I thought was eminently reasonable, faustiv didn't really comment on it, which suggests to me he wasn't that concerned with getting a response in the first place and was just looking for a target to push.

i mean sterling's reaction is the first thing that pinged me this game, so naturally i'm going to push that slot. in terms of sterling's response, i'm still unsure of his alignment. i'm just concerned that he didn't defend himself as vehemently as i would expect from a town player given maestro's reasoning behind his vote. i'm happy with where my vote lies at the time being.

Votes are the best way to pressure players. I disliked Sterling's "What does SRS mean" and wanted to push the slot.

90

In post 78, Sterling the steampunk wrote:
when do you consider RVS to be over? because I'm just not as good at getting reads due to the way the game is played on amongus and Town of Salem so really I don't have a good reason to vote anyone, Also isn't it your job to help new players out? instead you just started a bandwagon on me due to a confusion, also what about my confused comments did you glanced that I had a private thread? because the player list haven't been updated when I first posted. you know, trying to start a bangwagon on a new and confused player is pretty sus to me therefore VOTE: Maestro

what do you mean by private thread?

Was me trying to see if I could get him to town/scumslip in case Sterling was unsure about forum mafia mechanics.

I then unvoted because I got a good vibe off him and townread him for other elements of his play, which I highlighted in my 159. I also like to prod different players during D1 so I can sort them, hence why I jumped off the Sterling wagon. I didn't think that concentrating on Sterling alone would have helped me with sorting the other players, hence my unvote.

Notably it's a similar thing: downplay the slip, but call him scummy for other reasons to make it look like you're adding your own original thoughts to the game. it betrays a psychological unease with the actions of their partner but not really wanting to go all-in in case their partner is able to argue their way past the slip accusation

Also worth noting is that sterling literally does not react to faustiv voting him/suspecting him - I hadn't realized this but faustiv is really telling on himself by making that accusation that sterling didn't push back on me, likely because he is significantly more self-conscious about who sterling did/did not interact with

What a scum does in another game doesn't mean that a town can't have a similar thought process in another. That Titus post is NAI imo.

He only really reacts to Maestro's vote, and even then he barely mentions it, despite other players such as myself, kkirigiri and ceejay all voting him at other points in the game. This again feels like you have a read on me and are trying to shoehorn in whatever logic makes sense in your head to convince yourself that I am scum. My point was that he barely acknowledges you at all D1, despite you questioning him on numerous occasions.

[faüstiv]

I just can't, no matter how I try to read it, I really, really think faüstiv is scum.

I have been wrong before, like in 2100. I hard Town read Greeting all the way up to my NK.

@ faüstiv Remembering that there may still be a PR, is catboi your strongest scum read?

Yes.

fwiw I've resigned myself to the fact that I'm being voted out. I'm just hoping that town can glean something once I'm voted out.

The game is closed to being solved imo as it's not kkirigiri, wingfan or maestro. The only thing that really pings me about your slot is the fact it's been replaced into twice, and both its predecessors were scumread prior to flaking out. I think you are capable of PR reading Thry, but if my theory is correct about sterling being coached into claiming cop and then the "doc" line then, well, your predecessor wasn't even here during that phase of the game.

[faüstiv]

why are you sheeping the same arguments made by other players?

I'm so confident, I'd say put me up for next if I'm wrong. I think if it's not you, then ...

Catching up.

When I flip town, would you be happy then to be turbovoted tomorrow?

Man, if is faüstiv is Town, I'll owe him a huge apology.

I just lost my first scum game. It's rough.

There is a small chance I'd change my vote, but I really believe this slot (faüstiv) is scum.

Could you link me to this game?

[faüstiv]

@ faüstiv

Spoiler:

Your posts are a little unclear. I have a hard time tracking down the quotes. Do you know about the post button (in preview)? Having the link to the post referenced helps too.
I say this as nice as I can, but instead of dazzling me with brilliance, you've occasionally baffled me.

I'd really like to play with you again.

I play on a shitty Chrome laptop with its hinges broken and no mouse port, so sometimes when I try and specifically link to posts, it takes me out of the preview screen, which is very annoying.

I'd really like to play with you again.

Thanks and we'll see. Forum mafia can be quite time-consuming which is why I rarely play, but there's no real alternative anymore...

[faüstiv]

The game is closed to being solved imo as it's not kkirigiri, wingfan or maestro. The only thing that really pings me about your slot is the fact it's been replaced into twice, and both its predecessors were scumread prior to flaking out. I think you are capable of PR reading Thry, but if my theory is correct about sterling being coached into claiming cop and then the "doc" line then, well, your predecessor wasn't even here during that phase of the game.

I'm really unsure about all this "coaching". I could see someone coming up with it on their own. What else would you like us to see? I know you've said lots of words, but please boil it down and make it simple for all of us. Why is catboi scum?

Ok, I think the clue to solving the game comes from just before Sterling claims cop to day 1 end.

I'll go about this as abstractly as I can but I believe that mafia knew the setup from day 1.

1. Mafia know it's one of 3 setups.
catboi makes this post #377

cool i love when VIs roll PR this isn't infuriating at all

If we look at it from catboi's perspective and assuming he is town, this shows that he isn't doubting the cop claim at this point in the game. This means that catboi can either be doctor or VT as no other setup contains a cop except one with a doctor as the PR. Any other role and I think he would have approached the claim differently. Sure, he could have pretended to believe the claim for info, but I don't think he does this because his vote on sterling comes

after

Thry basically claimed PR, which is what strikes me as odd (and which also proves that catboi can't be anything else except one of these 2 roles as he chooses to then believe this PR soft). His progression also doesn't hint at him not believing the claim. Compare this to Thry's approach to the claim who always doubted the legitimacy of the claim and it's night and day. The "doc protect me line" could have been said to bait hardclaims but personally I don't think was needed.

2. There is a 5 in 6 chance that the setup contains a useful PR/mason and a weak/no PR. I personally don't believe that there is an investigative role in this game and that this setup is either B2 or C2. So here is what I think happened:

1.Sterling was told to claim cop to fish for claims/gauge reactions.
2. Catboi's approach to the claim appears to be one where he trusts the claim initially.
3. Sterling then claims "Doc please protect me" out of the blue.
4. Thry, who always doubted the claim (because he knew the claim was fake being jailkeeper) then basically admits to being PR in 431, catboi

then

votes Sterling, then ceejay hammers.

I think the other mafia partner knew that there was no danger in bussing. The only thing they had to establish is that the setup wasn't B3 and I think mafia knew it wasn't this setup during the day phase. Sterling is an expendable goon who has outlived his purpose by CCing.

I think it's between catboi and ceejay and the reason I believe it's catboi over ceejay is the approach to the end of the day. Whilst catboi immediately chose to vote sterling after the Thry post, ceejay appeared more unsure and I get the impression that his apprehension towards hammering the slot comes from a town mindset rather than catboi's who seemingly chooses to believe a PR soft without question. catboi knew that Thry was a PR and knew that the second PR wasn't a useful one. He also knew that there's enough 'scummy' players to push on to win the game; me for defending Sterling, wayward son's slot for constantly flaking once a vote goes on them and ceejay for doing very little of note.

I don't think it's maestro, kkirigiri or thewingfan. If the cop claim was coached then I think that rules out Wayward Son as the slot wasn't there during the end of the day phase. This leaves ceejay and catboi, and I think catboi's approach towards the end of the dayphase comes from that of a scum looking to bump off his partner rather than a townie choosing not to believe a bogus PR claim.

[faüstiv]

why are you sheeping the same arguments made by other players?

I'm so confident, I'd say put me up for next if I'm wrong. I think if it's not you, then ...

Catching up.

When I flip town, would you be happy then to be turbovoted tomorrow?

But I thought you ere sure I was scum? Why are you trying to intimidate wayward now?

intimidate.

I'm asking him a question.

[faüstiv]

This as an explanation for a question says nothing at all, asking about experience level is pretty banal. The fact he he specifically asked sterling's experience level, and then went on to defend him for being a noob, looks like he was trying to set this up to find an excuse to defend him.

It's not banal at all as it helps you establish reads. Newer players are more prone to town/scumslipping. I thought he was a newbie and so asked the question. I also thought, wrongly, that mafia would have coached Sterling more throughout the day, due to his experience level and couldn't establish a partner for him because of this reason, hence my townread.

And again, this is a super meaningless statement for a weak question. I don't really believe that was the intent, no oneasks stuff with the intention of trying to get someone to scumslip/townslip and I don't believe anyone could think "what d you maen by private thread?" is an effective question for sorting someone.

Again, I thought maybe I could get a scum/townslip out of him.

This says literally nothing. It's just repeating the same bad arguments faustiv has made ad nauseam, "I got good vibes" when I've already highlighted how contrived his explanation was. He's just hoping by being repetitive and overwhelming the thread people might actually start to fall for this. I've already shown his read on sterling was a complete crock, "I like to move my vote other places" is a plausible defense in terms of playstyle but also a good excuse to try to kill a bandwagon on your partner as scum.

None of this really bothers to address the fact that his jump on sterling was over-anxious and the fact thatthe posts he unvoted sterling for weren't actually townie at all and did not show the behavior he was townreding sterling for. It's a non-answer.

lol.

I'm not going to spend day 1 tunneling a player unless I am sure they are scum. I felt satisfied that Sterling was town so moved onto other targets.

I really hope you are mafia this game, I really do, because this is all "i'm reading your post this way and this is why you are scum" which doesn't actually say or mean anything.

[faüstiv]

I'd really ask thewingfan to maybe look at Mafiascum's other threads. Not all games are Rome!

I like themes (where flavor

may

play a part, I like Opens, Normals, etc. I feel your critique is really unfair. Even from a kid.

Back to the game.

Yeah I'm not doing that for a few reasons.

1. I'm not having fun so after I see this out I'm not playing here again, so.....why waste my time?
2. I can read until my eyes bleed and I don't think it'll tell me a whole lot. Personally I need to be invested in a game, else I find it incredibly boring.


To respond to your other posts, yes all the games I've played to date are themed and based on a book/movie/etc. I much prefer those games to this. Also as I've said before I'm used to games where there are 20+ players and 3-5 baddies with a lot of different mechanics going on.

As far as the time I am on Eastern Time you posted at 5:30 AM local time.

I will say that this place does run more themed games with larger numbers of players, but based on everything I've learned this game I strongly doubt the playstyle here will interest you. Sorry it didn't work out for you. (although there are fewer and fewer themed games these days, too much work for most people...)

You ever play euchre? I played it a lot in college with friends, and with my parents and grandfather. Its a fun game each hand is 5 tricks. If you call trump, you and your teammate need to take 3 of the tricks to score a point, Take all 5 you get two. If you get less than the 3, the other team gets two points.

Sure winning is fun, but the fun is in the playing.

I visited a retirement home and was invited to "play" euchre. Play in in quotes because we didn't really play. Cards were dealt and everyone's hands immediately were shown to the table and they just inutitvely scored the hand based on who would have taken what trick. I didn't find that enjoyable either.

I get playing the game was secondary to being sociable, but if that's all you're gonna do, why bother with the cards at all?

This game feels more the latter to me than the former.

As to your earlier point about my feelings hurt. I was ticked last night. There is a difference the size of the Gulf of Mexico between disagreeing with my take because "its not done here" and it being immature and childish. And with all due respect when someone comes at me like that I'm going to answer in kind.

That aside I'm not voting for faust, call it what you want I don't think he's it. Its either you or ceejay.

kinda interested, do you play forum mafia or live mafia?

also i hope the "football" you referred to earlier was the spherical 'soccer' kind.

[faüstiv]

Prodding ceejayvinoya and Maestro.

I'm going to be blunt: I strongly believe the game is already over and that faustiv is the last scum. I have had to wait around for 2 days doing nothing but arguing back and forth with him as he tries to flail his way out of this. (his recent post to wayward demonstrates his scumread on me is entirely unserious). I have had to wait around for 'final input' from 2 players who have likely both abandoned the game. If we hit the threshold for them being replaced, I'm going to just end it because I think it's a waste of everyone's time to wait for replacements in a game that's already over.

yeah I should probably have added that if they've not said anything by the end of today I wouldn't mind you dropping the hammer.

Do you really think that the way I've played this game is coming from a survivalistic mindset?

[faüstiv]

I mean sure. It's disappointing that you can't see that I'm town here, but if that's how you feel then, if I haven't convinced you already, then there's seemingly very little I can do.

I believe that my plays have all made sense this game and I still believe that Sterling was a bad hammer despite the flip.

[faüstiv]

I'd really ask thewingfan to maybe look at Mafiascum's other threads. Not all games are Rome!

I like themes (where flavor

may

play a part, I like Opens, Normals, etc. I feel your critique is really unfair. Even from a kid.

Back to the game.

Yeah I'm not doing that for a few reasons.

1. I'm not having fun so after I see this out I'm not playing here again, so.....why waste my time?
2. I can read until my eyes bleed and I don't think it'll tell me a whole lot. Personally I need to be invested in a game, else I find it incredibly boring.


To respond to your other posts, yes all the games I've played to date are themed and based on a book/movie/etc. I much prefer those games to this. Also as I've said before I'm used to games where there are 20+ players and 3-5 baddies with a lot of different mechanics going on.

As far as the time I am on Eastern Time you posted at 5:30 AM local time.

I will say that this place does run more themed games with larger numbers of players, but based on everything I've learned this game I strongly doubt the playstyle here will interest you. Sorry it didn't work out for you. (although there are fewer and fewer themed games these days, too much work for most people...)

You ever play euchre? I played it a lot in college with friends, and with my parents and grandfather. Its a fun game each hand is 5 tricks. If you call trump, you and your teammate need to take 3 of the tricks to score a point, Take all 5 you get two. If you get less than the 3, the other team gets two points.

Sure winning is fun, but the fun is in the playing.

I visited a retirement home and was invited to "play" euchre. Play in in quotes because we didn't really play. Cards were dealt and everyone's hands immediately were shown to the table and they just inutitvely scored the hand based on who would have taken what trick. I didn't find that enjoyable either.

I get playing the game was secondary to being sociable, but if that's all you're gonna do, why bother with the cards at all?

This game feels more the latter to me than the former.

As to your earlier point about my feelings hurt. I was ticked last night. There is a difference the size of the Gulf of Mexico between disagreeing with my take because "its not done here" and it being immature and childish. And with all due respect when someone comes at me like that I'm going to answer in kind.

That aside I'm not voting for faust, call it what you want I don't think he's it. Its either you or ceejay.

kinda interested, do you play forum mafia or live mafia?

also i hope the "football" you referred to earlier was the spherical 'soccer' kind.

Its forum mafia. If the football I'm watching today is soccer you mean-no its a college football Saturday. My alama mater (University of Cincinatti) kicks off here in 15 minutes against Navy. I did an online program and never set foot on their campus though. I still root for them when I can.

The school I grew up rooting for is the University of Michigan is beating Rutgers at 7:30 tonight. But games are on all day from 12 PM forward.

I do watch the Euro footy on weekend mornings but this morning I was too busy picking leaves up again. More leaves fell thanks the the 20 mph winds ripping around right now and i wanted to get it clean before the rain came today....


Footy wise I grew up cheering for Man Utd but when the whole Super League nonsense came about I decided I couldn't root for a team that tried to break the greatest club competition in the world so I changed my allegiance to Leeds Utd largely for the cheeky "Earn It" T-shirts they put in Liverpool's locker room before they played each other last season.

If by the sim I mentioned earlier-yes it is soccer. Its not fantasy. The players in that game are purely fake and its more like Championship (Football) Manager than it is anything else. We have World Cups and a version of Champions and every thing!

Leeds, tsk, you could have picked a better team (literally anyone ). Do you not root for FC Cincinatti?

You need to move somewhere with no leaves.

[faüstiv]

Well, that's to me part of the reason. If you had really thought that Sterling was a bad hammer for the reason of wanting to vote outside, then why didn't you make that case at the time, and then why did you ask me to vote Thynhith with you?

If Sterling is capable of recognising that there's a possibility of a cop in the game, then why does he need coaching to see a doc? What's up with Sterling's vote on Wayward's slot? Up until then the only serious heat on Sterling had come from Maestro and myself, are you saying catboi, despite being the most active player in the game to that point, wouldn't have coached Sterling to not make a blunder like that?

then why didn't you make that case at the time, and then why did you ask me to vote Thynhith with you?

I did in 455, though I wasn't expecting ceejay to hammer there and then in fairness. I thought Thry was the scum in what were, essentially, setup ccs. I also thought, should sterling flip maf, they may keep the guy who I had read as being a potential PR and myself alive.

I'm saying that I think it was coached for him to claim cop there and then, and the 'doc' line feels too out of place for it to be a non-coached line.

Sterling's vote put that slot I believe on L-2, which I don't think scum would do to their partner at that stage in the game.

I think the only coaching Sterling received was to claim cop and claim the doc line. Once sterling's partner established the PR(s) and imo, knew what the setup was, he could bus his partner without ramification. I feel that catboi's vote on sterling doesn't come from a town's perspective and reads like a scum bussing his partner, given that catboi was essentially claiming VT at that point in the game.

[faüstiv]

Just fluff

Spoiler:

You need to move somewhere with no leaves.

This morning I went out back and our Koi Pond was completely covered in leaves (except in front of the waterfall. Lots of soggy leaves!

I'm going to be gone all day. I'd really like a few slots to say

something

.

got to feel sorry for the leaves really haven't you.

[faüstiv]

I guess you have done a decent job at fostering an ugly feeling inside me that you

might

be town if I were to purely be influenced by the way you've posted and the tone you've used, but that's not really manifesting itself into a coherent theory when I try to examine it.
I am an emotional being and AtEs

will

have some effect on the way I feel, but I have to trust my rational mind here.

keep me alive so i can tallk thewingfan out of being a leeds utd supporter.

[faüstiv]

I did in 455, though I wasn't expecting ceejay to hammer there and then in fairness. I thought Thry was the scum in what were, essentially, setup ccs. I also thought, should sterling flip maf, they may keep the guy who I had read as being a potential PR and myself alive.

My point is that you didn't try to persuade me to consider that POV, you just instantly voted Thynhith anyway. And after that, what were you expecting mafia to do? Would they have NKed

except

Thynhith who if nothing else was closest to being confirmed town due to being the most crucial component of the wagon that eliminated him.
How would a mafia that wasn't you see a town shading him and think, 'actually yeah, I could get Thyn out next day'. Just sounds totally implausible and I don't get why you'd be thinking and acting that way as town.

I mean it

is

a newbie game...

I figured I might as well at least try. I was only really scumread after the flip and if mafia thought they could use me to get Thry voted out after I showed tunelly characteristics D1 then maybe they'd keep him alive and not identify he was a PR.

[faüstiv]

keep me alive so i can tallk thewingfan out of being a leeds utd supporter.

I'm also a Detroit Lions fan. If I'm a fan of that garbage franchise you have no hope.

and what's wrong with Leeds anyway?

It's a personal thing. Most Leeds fans I've had the unfortunate pleasure of encountering have been absolute degenerates.

Of course that's not every Leeds fan, just the ones that happen to live in Leeds..

[faüstiv]

me, thewingfan and whoever else wants to jump on the wagon.

we are coming for you, scum.

[faüstiv]

we should wait to hear from the replacements.

[faüstiv]

first of all congrats to steampunk and catboi. both played relatively well and deserved the win.

secondly, i played like trash this game and i apologise for that. usually i'm a better player but i think rustiness+getting too emotionally involved in this game cost me, especially d2. also apologies if i rubbed anyone up the wrong way etc. i don't think i learned anything from this game but this game reminded me about certain elements of mafia that i'd forgotten, such as being too obstinate towards what were loose theories and attaching myself to said theories because they made sense in my head (which happened especially on d1).

thirdly, commiserations to town. no individual player played badly, but as a collective i think we all made errors and it's what led to catboi eventually soloing the game after steampunk was L'ed d1. i was a bit disappointed with the general activity d3 onwards, felt town were playing a bit lethargic and weren't really pressuring slots but as i say, we all made errors and significant errors were also made d1 and d2 so don't think i'm trying to absolve blame from myself by saying that.

fourthly, thanks for modding dannflor and datisi.

fifthly, would be open to playing with anyone in here again at some point.

[faüstiv]

when we getting pt's?

[faüstiv]

first of all congrats to steampunk and catboi. both played relatively well and deserved the win.

secondly, i played like trash this game and i apologise for that. usually i'm a better player but i think rustiness+getting too emotionally involved in this game cost me, especially d2. also apologies if i rubbed anyone up the wrong way etc. i don't think i learned anything from this game but this game reminded me about certain elements of mafia that i'd forgotten, such as being too obstinate towards what were loose theories and attaching myself to said theories because they made sense in my head (which happened especially on d1).

thirdly, commiserations to town. no individual player played badly, but as a collective i think we all made errors and it's what led to catboi eventually soloing the game after steampunk was L'ed d1. i was a bit disappointed with the general activity d3 onwards, felt town were playing a bit lethargic and weren't really pressuring slots but as i say, we all made errors and significant errors were also made d1 and d2 so don't think i'm trying to absolve blame from myself by saying that.

fourthly, thanks for modding dannflor and datisi.

fifthly, would be open to playing with anyone in here again at some point.

For what it's worth I don't think you were awful - you had a correct read on me, and I think your process of elimination for settling on me was more or less solid in terms of your thinking. The issue was that your reasoning for casing me was shaky, and I did what most experienced scum players do, which is pick your logic and debate you endlessly and turn the argument into a slog. Most players will tune out that arguing after a while, and unfortunately you were getting tunneled by a lot of the thread for being wrong on Sterling on Day 1. You gave me a good fight though and it was about one of the only times in the game I was strongly motivated.

I think in a playerlist where more people are familiar with my meta I basically never get away with burying you that way.

no that's the issue - i let myself get sucked in too easily, though being on L1 for most of the day didn't help. fwiw you should have hammered me sooner.

[faüstiv]

Welp at least my baddie sniffer isn't all that broken afterall. Outside of my annoyance at being called childish and yes I saw the apology and I appreciate it. I could only take being told I was bad so many times.

And whether I was right that faust was framed for the kill on whomever it was or not. I had it right.

As to why I left I became increasingly frustrated because every time I posted the reply Always that post was so bad but no one wanted to hang me. Its simple folks if you think my posts make me scummy then by all means HANG ME. Let's just get it over with. So between the pacing of this game being glacial ( we've now played two games at home in the time I left to now), and the fact I'm not going to change the way I play, and I'm really not interested in playing a game where everyone wants to tell me I'm bad all the time so I really don't think I'll give it a go here again.

that's a shame, you played well imo. you obvtowned pretty early and it was pleasing to see that at least one townie agreed that i was town and that catboi was scum.

tbf whilst i don't mind this site, there's just no other place to play a decent mafia game anymore that i know of.

[faüstiv]

@catboi - i don't think my logic was at all bad, just maybe not presented in the best way and my d1/early d2 didn't help my case as i was a scummy player. you did well in turning my arguments into what became a shouting match though and had i not been as rusty, i would have probably realised this much sooner than i did. what was disappointing though is that no one cased catboi again once i flipped town.

[faüstiv]

again, not happy how i played this game even though i correctly scumread the surviving mafia. probably my worst game in a while.

[faüstiv]

Welp at least my baddie sniffer isn't all that broken afterall. Outside of my annoyance at being called childish and yes I saw the apology and I appreciate it. I could only take being told I was bad so many times.

And whether I was right that faust was framed for the kill on whomever it was or not. I had it right.

As to why I left I became increasingly frustrated because every time I posted the reply Always that post was so bad but no one wanted to hang me. Its simple folks if you think my posts make me scummy then by all means HANG ME. Let's just get it over with. So between the pacing of this game being glacial ( we've now played two games at home in the time I left to now), and the fact I'm not going to change the way I play, and I'm really not interested in playing a game where everyone wants to tell me I'm bad all the time so I really don't think I'll give it a go here again.

that's a shame, you played well imo. you obvtowned pretty early and it was pleasing to see that at least one townie agreed that i was town and that catboi was scum.

tbf whilst i don't mind this site, there's just no other place to play a decent mafia game anymore that i know of.

Convince me otherwise. I get a baddie trying to paint me as bad. That doesn't bother me. But others. This is what happened in my view.

When I finally found my feet a little bit and gave an opinion.....

Someone "That post was so scummy"

Me. "Hang me then and let's get it over with"

Then they didn't. I really am struggling to understand why not? And I just got tired of the cyclical nature of those conversations.

They don't do that for some reason? And I get not doing it the first few times you say it but my God if you've told me over and over my posts are scummy what the hell are you waiting for? Especiially in a game that goes longer than Methuselah's lifespan but ends after it reaches enough of a majority.

Way I see it is if you've got someone is scummy plant your flag, vote, move on. Admittedly I am used to votes getting changed until Deadline EVEN if a maority is reached so it doesn't matter if I was leading the hang 5-4 mid day, it matters that I led the hang 5-4 at deadline.

well i can't speak for others, but imo you obvtowned pretty early, that's why i never pushed or questioned you. once i saw this post:

Thanks I've already posted some.

No I'm not a baddie, and I'm not all to interesting either

. But then I don't think anyone would freely admit to being a baddie would they?

i figured you were likely not scum as it looks like a soft VT claim, which scum generally don't do as they like to keep their counter claim options open. obviously if scum didn't pick up on this then they can narrow down who the PR's are based off it, which is why i never highlighted this reasoning in game.