Newbie 1368 - Will there ever be a title? (GAME OVER)

[Candillan]

HEY GUYS WHAT'S UP I'M TOWN THIS TIME \o/
VOTE: Grimgroove
You can never be too sure with him.

[Candillan]

sigh
this already
Syryana I am town this time though ^_^

The question is, are you?

[Candillan]

Welcome back everyone, let's get this started again!

Candillan

I'm thinking one of the maffia from the previous game will be one again, and since it's not me, it must be him.

If that's the case, then you're already 100% confirmed scum from my pov, right?
Tunnels ahoy!

[Candillan]

Basically, Edos accidentally put the link to the Scum QT in the role PM examples. Crand saw them, and knew we were scum. He told Edos about this, and then asked to be replaced because he can't scumhunt when he knows who the scum are. Edos posted saying that Crand was being replaced because of the debacle, which ended up unintentionally confirming his slot as town. Because of that, Edos figured it would be better to just restart the game.

...At least that's what I think happened.

Pedit:

Grim, why are you re-RVSing?

Syryana, you too. Unless you believe that your vote on me was a legitimate vote.

[Candillan]

...oh, thanks for reminding me to remove that link from my bookmarks.

[Candillan]

Alright, that's fine then.

[Candillan]

I agree that it's kinda odd that he would bring that up of all things, but that's the only time, if I recall correctly, that Raven ever adressed Crand.

I do agree with Syryana that your vote on him did seem fairly opportunistic, though.

Also, that's not jumping to his defense, that's simply stating a fact. There's a difference.

[Candillan]

"This is why I think you're scummy, Grim."
*votes Crand*
I giggled. I am reading town from you, though, Syryana.

Was the reaction test on me, or on Grim? I'd think it'd be on me since you were voting me, but I can't tell, with the way you phrased it.

[Candillan]

I have nothing on Grim. My vote was for reactions, and I feel as if he reacted well.

Syryana, call it gut for now.
I have a sneaking suspicion that your bout with Grim back there was town v town.
I also liked Homer's intro post. It made me feel good.

I agree that a Crand wagon is a good idea.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Crandaja

[Candillan]

1. I was the first vote on Grim.
2. I dunno, that's actually a coincidence. I don't plan to be the third vote on a wagon all the time.
UNVOTE:

[Candillan]

@Crandaja and Candillan

Spoiler:

Bump for VC

;-;

[Candillan]

I love how Shaboo posted there but not here.
And by love, I mean dislike.
Cmon, Shaboo ;-;

[Candillan]

If Shaboo was a jester, he'd win every game.

[Candillan]

The Great Shaboostein...
That has a nice ring to it.

I'd give you more slack if you hadn't posted in the QT rather than here. >_>

[Candillan]

Fair enough
Wait, you went straight for the QT link...? o_o

[Candillan]

See, at first I thought you were kidding, but it's actually true. o_o

[Candillan]

I think Candillans meta is to start every game with a scummy statement. I don't like the "Oh no not a wagon again on me for a scummy RVS", because it tends to disarm thoughts of actual scumminess. Additionally, in ISO he looks fishy: he votes Crand, then unvotes three posts later because he doesn't always want to be the third vote on a wagon. Seems very self conscious about his votes, and if he thought it was good to put pressure on Crand, why take it off? If he is worried about L-2, he could just ask for no claims at this time.

Also, Candillan hasn't scumhunted at all. Just look at his ISO, no challenges, a /barn here or there...

VOTE: Candillan

Bahahahahahahano
The truth is that I have an aura of scumminess around me that makes me an easy wagon for scum to hop on and town to follow.
Meanwhile, you're commenting on my meta when I told you that I hate meta arguments. You're speaking in hypotheticals as to what I'd do, and I don't like that.

For the record, I am assembling reads. I currently read you and Crand as scummy.

Your push on me based on a meta argument doesn't make sense. Also, that isn't my scum meta, if you were to look at the last game. I don't like your case, and it seems as if you're pushing on me to make yourself seem active.

I'm not so vote-happy because then it gives my votes less impact when they're actually laid down. I'm not afraid of putting someone to L-2 or whatever, that was purely coincidence.

All in all, this case is bad, and you should feel bad.

VOTE: LnGrrrR
Other posts coming in a minute.

[Candillan]

(On an aside, Cand is uncomfortably close to Crand. It keeps getting me confused.)

[Candillan]

Homer, are you planning on reading the other game?

Do you think I need to do it? Will it give me any information about this game?

I'd read it so you can understand what we're referring to if we reference the other one.
I wouldn't read it for meta though.

[Candillan]

The great shaboostein has returned... stay tuned for an actual post.

And c'mon, its been like a day since the game started. Give a guy some slack

Shabooooooooo

[Candillan]

For the record, I was pointing out that it was odd that Syryana posted all that about Grim then voted Crand. I didn't say it was scummy.
I don't feel as if I have enough of a feel on people to make a reads list yet, but soon, hopefully.

Grim, I'll echo Raven's question. What made you change your mind on LnGrrrR?

[Candillan]

Guys it was an RVS joke vote. Was that not obvious? I have absolutely no reason to believe Raven is scum. In regards to my overly defensiveness. I was trying to be offensive towards Grim since I believe his deduction of me was really scummy. His attacks on me were very decisive yet he didn't do the research. It felt very scummy to me so I wanted to push it. That being said
VOTE: Grim
He is the only real scum read I have thus far.

It hurts to have a wagon on you because of an RVS vote, doesn't it. ;-;

[Candillan]

Bahahahahahahano
The truth is that I have an aura of scumminess around me that makes me an easy wagon for scum to hop on and town to follow.

Remember that comment I made about excusing scumminess ahead of the fact? This is what Im talking about. "I can't help that I have a scummy aura, but Im town this time!"

'twas a joke.

Meanwhile, you're commenting on my meta when I told you that I hate meta arguments. You're speaking in hypotheticals as to what I'd do, and I don't like that.

So because you don't like it I should stop then? Also, could you point out to me where you mentioned this dislike of meta arguments?

You don't have to start, but don't expect me to take your case seriously.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4925707 <--- That's one example.

Your push on me based on a meta argument doesn't make sense. Also, that isn't my scum meta, if you were to look at the last game. I don't like your case, and it seems as if you're pushing on me to make yourself seem active.

I thought you disliked discussing meta, yet here you are doing it. As far as your "scum meta", you also started out last game with the "oh no not a wagon on me for RVS comments!". What do you think is the difference between your scum and town meta?

I'm saying that even if you were to go from how I was playing last game, your case is inaccurate. Your case doesn't match up to the "scum meta" you have.
The difference lies in how I want to play the game. I change how I play from game to game, not from scum to town.

I'm not so vote-happy because then it gives my votes less impact when they're actually laid down. I'm not afraid of putting someone to L-2 or whatever, that was purely coincidence.

If you weren't vote happy, why vote him in the first place? If you don't care about putting someone to L-2, why did you unvote?

I unvoted because it was a vote for pressure and a vote for reactions. When I had gotten both, I unvoted.

So, all in all, this isn't scum behavior, nor is it typical of my playstyle. I don't think your case has any foundation considering you base it on meta, and I don't live up to a meta.

[Candillan]

I cannot get a read on Shaboo or Rach if they don't post anything which is making this pretty hard to contribute to.

And yes... Yes it does.

I agree.

[Candillan]

I didn't say that this game, and the only thing close to it was a joke.

Yes, I was 'throwing my vote around', but I wasn't known to have a habit of doing that. That's why I like to defy my 'meta'. Crand took my vote seriously because I wasn't known to do that often, and therefore likely assumed it was a serious vote. (which is was, but not because it was an actual scum accusation. It was for pressure. I saw a good opportunity, and I took it.)
My Grim vote, however, was RVS. You can't count that.

I didn't say I was clearing him as town. I'm still reading him. To be honest, the case on him is dependent on Raven being scum, as the whole case revolves around his RVS vote on Raven seeming suspicious. You can't call it scummy unless Raven is scum, as it's an associative tell.

I feel as if that's hit a sort of a dead end, as we don't know if either one is scum. If you're recommending a Crand flip because it'll be helpful, that's a different story. I haven't seen anyone say that yet, so I feel like people actually think he's scummy. Yet, on the other hand, I have seen no one challenge Raven.

The case is flawed, and thus I'm not pushing it.

[Candillan]

Meh, I got a wagon on me because I didn't know what RVS even was.

[Candillan]

I didn't say that this game, and the only thing close to it was a joke.

So the "aura of scumminess" and "easy wagon" lines from post 85 were jokes too?

Yes.

Yes, I was 'throwing my vote around', but I wasn't known to have a habit of doing that. That's why I like to defy my 'meta'.

I said nothing about your voting in regards to your meta, only the "Oh no an RVS wagon!" comments.

You yourself said you werent vote happy but you were acting vote happy.

I didn't say "Oh no an RVS wagon" this game, did I? I said that I'm not vote-happy so that you all would take my votes seriously. It seems to have worked.

Crand took my vote seriously because I wasn't known to do that often, and therefore likely assumed it was a serious vote. (which is was, but not because it was an actual scum accusation. It was for pressure. I saw a good opportunity, and I took it.)

To me, one post from Crand doesn't feel like you provided a lot of pressure.

To each their own.

I didn't say I was clearing him as town. I'm still reading him. To be honest, the case on him is dependent on Raven being scum, as the whole case revolves around his RVS vote on Raven seeming suspicious. You can't call it scummy unless Raven is scum, as it's an associative tell.

Could you please explain this further? Also, if his case depends on Raven being scum, why not put pressure on Raven?

Because I don't see Raven as scummy? Also, it's bad practice to accuse your buddy of being scum.

Basically, Grim accused Crand of doing something in his scum QT with Raven. That implies the two of them are scum. He also said that Crand's reason for RVSing Raven seemed unnatural. I see that as meaning that it seemed forced, which implies Raven being scum.

[Candillan]

I was referring to the rivalry-ish thing between Syryana and me.

[Candillan]

'tis fine.
UNVOTE:

[Candillan]

Sigh
I don't know
I guess we wait for someone to scumslip et al.

Random Question Time!
1. What do you guys prefer to play as? Scum or Town?
2. You're cop with a guilty. Do you claim immediately, or wait it out?
3. Do you tend to play aggressively, or more passively?

[Candillan]

Nothing, really. It's to get discussion going, but I couldn't think of better questions. :/

[Candillan]

Phonepost because I'm still in class but
I tell you all that I don't like meta cases because of people like me. I manipulate my meta in order to baffle and confuse people. That in of itself does not weigh on my alignment. I am town though. It's a play style choice, not a tell.

I'm not bussing Shaboo, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for reminding me, though, I forgot to vote him for not posting.
VOTE: Shaboostein
More later.

[Candillan]

So I IC'd Candillan for today, the most active player in ammount of posts, so he gives you most to work with. Only thing I'll be able to do before the weekend I'm afraid. All in all I'd have to agree with LnGrrrR's case against him. Maybe not in LnGrrrR's first post, which was mainly a good thing because it showed more involvement from LnGrrrR again, but in the discussion following it he raised some good points. What I mainly don't like is that Candillan refuses any meta-arguments to be used again him, but in a devious way tries to use that meta to his advantage several times (which I'll try to show here). Claiming you consciously play differently every game so that your meta is useless is actually a meta-argument in itself. MAybe I should clarify further, but I think claiming you have "no meta", is making a statement about your meta and trying to use it as an argument in your advantage. I find it worrysome that Candillan is so involved with his meta, definitely for someone who claims to not have one.

I adressed this in my previous post. My meta is anti-meta, as I am consciously playing differently every game. Relying on meta won't be helpful, and I won't take it seriously. I used myself as an example, but I believe that meta arguments in general are total garbage.

I agree that it's kinda odd that he would bring that up of all things, but that's the only time, if I recall correctly, that Raven ever adressed Crand.

I do agree with Syryana that your vote on him did seem fairly opportunistic, though.

Also, that's not jumping to his defense, that's simply stating a fact. There's a difference.

What is the "if I recall correctly"-bit supposed to mean? How would you recall something like that? Granted, there wasn't much activity going on in "Title Pending", but to assume you remember all people's interactions seems strange, and pretending to do so seems unnaturally thoughtful.

...What? I don't recall those two ever talking to each other. I didn't say I remember all people's interactions, and I wouldn't say so. I just don't recall them ever interacting aside from that one post.

Alright, that's fine then.

Could you give me an example of when re-RVSing would not be fine?

Nope, I can't think of any.

The Great Shaboostein...
That has a nice ring to it.

I'd give you more slack if you hadn't posted in the QT rather than here. >_>

How have you not gave Shaboostein a lot of slack? all you did was call his name a couple of times. Careful bussing?

I also adressed this in my last post. It isn't bussing, it's giving him the benefit of the doubt. I'm not gonna go super-offensive on him when he says that he's gonna post. I'm giving him air to breathe. It's a friendly game, either way. Why am I not allowed to be friendly with other players?
I called his name the last time to point out the fact that he //still// hadn't posted. He said he was going to do so later that day, and I think it's been two days later.

Bahahahahahahano
The truth is that I have an aura of scumminess around me that makes me an easy wagon for scum to hop on and town to follow.
Meanwhile, you're commenting on my meta when I told you that I hate meta arguments. You're speaking in hypotheticals as to what I'd do, and I don't like that.

For the record, I am assembling reads. I currently read you and Crand as scummy.

Your push on me based on a meta argument doesn't make sense. Also, that isn't my scum meta, if you were to look at the last game. I don't like your case, and it seems as if you're pushing on me to make yourself seem active.

I'm not so vote-happy because then it gives my votes less impact when they're actually laid down. I'm not afraid of putting someone to L-2 or whatever, that was purely coincidence.

All in all, this case is bad, and you should feel bad.

VOTE: LnGrrrR
Other posts coming in a minute.

Surprised nobody called him out on this before, but isn't this the most blatant OMGUS in the game(s) so far? LnGrrrR had never even been mentioned by Candillan before this, and now he's suddenly on his scum-reads, based on LngRrrR using meta for a case. Coming out of a game with all of us in it that got cancelled, I think it's only natural to do so. Syryana did the same with me, I did the same with LnGrrrR. Yet Syryana is Candillan's town read.

Yeah, it's OMGUS. Sue me. My posting was for pressure, as everything else I've been doing has been. Reaction testing is a powerful thing, Grim. It helps you assemble reads.
I am seriously trying to gather reads, but I've been terrible at it this time around. I do seriously see Homer and Syryana as townie, though. I was leaning town on you, but your jumping on this case is making me doubt that somewhat. It seems a wee bit too convenient.
Also, if you really saw this as being so scummy, why aren't you voting me?

'twas a joke.

Urgh. I like a good laugh, but people blaming having said weird things on "joking" are always scummy in my book.

Okay.

Crand took my vote seriously because I wasn't known to do that often, and therefore likely assumed it was a serious vote. (which is was, but not because it was an actual scum accusation. It was for pressure. I saw a good opportunity, and I took it.)

"I wasn't known to do that often" = meta-argument. And to be perfectly honest, I never associated you with someone who doesn't like voting or changing votes all the time. Anyway, I don't like the argument in the quote above, hard to put my finger on it but the logical conclusion that Crandaja took your vote seriously (did he?) because of your meta (did he?) doesn't really add up. And even if it does, it goes to show that meta IS useful and you are willing to use it in your gaming strategy.

Yes, it is useful for me to use, not for you all. By you all using my meta to ascertain my alignment in this game, I am able to use that examination to make you all think certain things of me when I really am pulling the wool over your eyes.
I assumed Crand took my vote seriously. It could be otherwise. I don't exactly know, and most likely won't ever know for sure.
Meta is a natural tell for people. If all of a sudden someone you know started acting differently, you'd notice. It wouldn't be because you researched their behavioral patterns consciously, but because it was subconscious. You all have an established meta on me, and by me defying that meta I am putting myself at an advantage. This allows me to pull off gambits and reaction tests more efficiently.
I think that's enough droning on about my beliefs on meta, so moving on...

Because I don't see Raven as scummy? Also, it's bad practice to accuse your buddy of being scum.

Could you clarify the second part of that statement? Who would be the buddy and who would be doing the accusing in this case?

I'm buddying Raven. Not scumbuddies, but shameless sheeping and things of the like. LnGrrrR asked me why /I/ wasn't putting pressure on Raven, and I'm assuming he wanted me to put pressure on her. (Meanwhile, may I note how he didn't pressure her at all after I said that I wouldn't? It seems like he doesn't believe the associative tell on Crand/Raven, otherwise he would be pushing on them rather than a meta argument on me.)


tl;dr meta is dumb and I'm using mine to experiment on you all.
(Man, half of this post belongs in the Mafia Discussion Forum.)

[Candillan]

Oh, I'm not saying that I don't have a meta. I'm saying that my meta isn't reliable to discern my alignment at the current moment.

[Candillan]

Gotcha.
They were serious votes, but not for scum accusations. They were for pressure and reaction testing.
Yeah, I know I'm sorta letting the cat out of the bag, but I had to do so to adress LnGrrrR's points and the ones that followed.

[Candillan]

Hey Rach, what do you think about the case on me?
What do you think of others?

[Candillan]

Cmon, Shaboo ;-;

[Candillan]

lack of Shaboo/Rach lowers my motivation to play considerably.

This.
I'm noticing an around-the-board lack of activity/enthusiasm in this game, and it's irritating.

[Candillan]

But Grim was scum last time.

Yes, but he sounded very townie last game. Everyone pretty much thought he was town. (And it likely would've come back to bite him, as people would've wondered why he wasn't getting NK'd.

This post's logic doesn't make sense. He was scum last game, and because he's acting the same way this time, he's town? That makes zero sense.

[Candillan]

Grimgroove is V/LA until Sunday evening.
So am I, but Bitmap should be here in case something arises.

[Candillan]

But Grim was scum last time.

Yes, but he sounded very townie last game. Everyone pretty much thought he was town. (And it likely would've come back to bite him, as people would've wondered why he wasn't getting NK'd.

This post's logic doesn't make sense. He was scum last game, and because he's acting the same way this time, he's town? That makes zero sense.

He was acting town last game. Did anyone think he was scum last game? No, because he acted town. He is acting town here so I give him townie points. Should I only give him town points if he acts scummy?

If anything, that would make this a null tell, would it not? He could have drawn scum, and he could just be acting the same way. For you to give him townie points for doing the same thing he was doing as scum is nonsensical.
For the record, I thought he was scum last game.

[Candillan]

How do you consider your playstyle here different from the one in the Title Pending game. If it's conscious, you should be able to explain the differences you have applied when this topic opened.
What variables do you see when it comes to meta? I mean, maybe you could change some obvious things, like amount of posts and their length, votehopping or not, but wouldn't you agree that when it comes to reacting to what other people say in quite constant?
And even if it is useless in your case, why does that make it useless in any other case? I see in your latest conversation you're discussing my meta from Title Pending quite in depth. Why bother if it doesn't mean anything?
By the way, what my meta is concerned, I think I already said this before: I'll be playing the same way as before. As long as I have the time to do so, I will always play like this, scum or town. But these are just the big lines. I'm not sure if unconciously, there could be some differences in the way I post or put up argumentations. But that's mainly your job to find out about.

Some things that I notice are the things you just stated there. Post amounts, their lengths, vote hopping, lurking, and a few other things I'm forgetting at the moment.
I'm saying that if I can do it so easily, then who says other people can't/won't do it, too?
My problem with LnGrrrR's read on you is the logic of the matter. The statement in itself doesn't make sense.

Alright, that's fine then.

Could you give me an example of when re-RVSing would not be fine?

Nope, I can't think of any.

Why did you ask about my re-RVS? How does it fit in with the scumhunt?

Reaction testing.

I also adressed this in my last post. It isn't bussing, it's giving him the benefit of the doubt. I'm not gonna go super-offensive on him when he says that he's gonna post. I'm giving him air to breathe. It's a friendly game, either way. Why am I not allowed to be friendly with other players?

This has got nothing to do with friendliness. Why bring up such an emotional argument? I don't think shaboostein would start crying himself to sleep at night just because you'd vote him. I find the interchange between the two of you very odd. An associative tell is what I see.

The same thing happened in Newbie 1335 when I wasn't pressuring A_Stone very much, and Maenara called me out on it. I'm just not an aggressive player.

Yeah, it's OMGUS. Sue me.

My posting was for pressure, as everything else I've been doing has been. Reaction testing is a powerful thing, Grim. It helps you assemble reads.

I am seriously trying to gather reads, but I've been terrible at it this time around. I do seriously see Homer and Syryana as townie, though. I was leaning town on you, but your jumping on this case is making me doubt that somewhat. It seems a wee bit too convenient.

So anyone who's been on your case automatically no longer leans town. That's a whole lot of OMGUS right there, and yes, I think you should be sued for it. LnGrrrR put forward some reasonable arguments against you, yet instead of seeing the merit in them you simply call his attack on you scummy. I agree with him, and you call me scummy. How is me attacking you convenient for me?
And what does the thing in bold have to do with anything? Was you calling LnGrrrR scummy simply a reaction test? Is that what you're saying? How do you think he reacted then?

The OMGUS was a reaction test. I don't think I should be sued for it. I broke his points down one by one. They were scumhunting, but I couldn't tell if it was genuine or fake.
Your sheeping of the case seemed opportunistic. That, I did actually find scummy.
The bolded was..... actually I dunno. Lemme check, I'll make a post after this.

Also, if you really saw this as being so scummy, why aren't you voting me?

You calling me out? You're in my top 3 scumreads now, so first reason why I didn't vote you is because there are alternatives. It's not as if I'm not voting. What scummy reasons would you see for me not voting for you, that would make this question more than simply showing your defiance? And would me adding a vote to my arguments have changed your reaction to them?

So Shaboo is probably getting replaced. Does your scumread on him still stand? Who is the other person? Crand?
Yes, it would change my view on it. I found it about as odd as Syryana's post where he stated a bunch of reasons why you're scummy, then voted Crand. It didn't line up.

'twas a joke.

Urgh. I like a good laugh, but people blaming having said weird things on "joking" are always scummy in my book.

Okay.

As far as jokes go, it wasn't even really funny as in "hahaha"-funny. I don't think you would think it "haha"-funny either. The only thing that makes it a joke is that it is not sincere. But that's not enough for a joke. It is enough for a scummy statement.

It was more of the type of humor Thor uses. At least, that's the closest way to describe it.

Crand took my vote seriously because I wasn't known to do that often, and therefore likely assumed it was a serious vote. (which is was, but not because it was an actual scum accusation. It was for pressure. I saw a good opportunity, and I took it.)

"I wasn't known to do that often" = meta-argument. And to be perfectly honest, I never associated you with someone who doesn't like voting or changing votes all the time. Anyway, I don't like the argument in the quote above, hard to put my finger on it but the logical conclusion that Crandaja took your vote seriously (did he?) because of your meta (did he?) doesn't really add up. And even if it does, it goes to show that meta IS useful and you are willing to use it in your gaming strategy.

Yes, it is useful for me to use, not for you all. By you all using my meta to ascertain my alignment in this game, I am able to use that examination to make you all think certain things of me when I really am pulling the wool over your eyes.

Why would you want to do that as town? In that case scum would already know who you are, so you'd only be fooling town.

Yeah, and it makes it easier for me to play as scum in the future, as people won't have meta on me.
This is just an overarching plan of mine for the long term. It's also a way for me to try out different playstyles and see what works best.

Now, brb, time to look for what I meant with that bolded part...

PEDIT:
@Raven, Whoops, forgot to post that. D:
He's Null leaning Scum. His case on me was scumhunting, which is good, but his point on Grim doesn't make sense.

@LnGrrrR, one minute lemme respond to that.

More posts every time I press submit I cry ;~;

[Candillan]

Oh, it was me saying that the OMGUS was for pressure, lol.

[Candillan]

If anything, that would make this a null tell, would it not? He could have drawn scum, and he could just be acting the same way. For you to give him townie points for doing the same thing he was doing as scum is nonsensical.
For the record, I thought he was scum last game.

No, because that's how you end up living in WIFOMland. I give town points to townie actions. If he ends up being super townie and lives to D3, then I will start acting suspicious. If he slips up, then I will get suspicious. Anything else is WIFOMy.

Acting town is not a "null" tell.

WIFOM is the enemy, indeed. I wouldn't trust him for doing the same thing that he did as scum, though. If he fooled you all, then shouldn't you be more wary of him this time around? You seem quick to call him town, and I don't like it.

Pedit:
Pedit is a Preview Edit, where you press submit and it says "At least one new post has been made to this topic. You may wish to review your post in light of this." and it gives you a chance to revise your post.

[Candillan]

Grim, I think the yes vs yep argument was pretty weak too, but it was coming soon after RVS and it was an attempt to generate discussion/content, which is why I don't see it as that scummy. If you had pulled that argument now that we have decent data to go through I would've found it much worse.

PS: This post gave me massive scumvibes. Hard to put my finger on why it does, but I'll try to elaborate later.

Because it could be bussing his partner for towncred?
More posts in a minute, phoneposting is bleh.

[Candillan]

@Raven, the "last time" was a throwaway line. Grim felt townie to me last game when he wasn't, he feels townie to me this game. He might be scum, he might not, but Im not going to tr to WIFOM him as scum.

You can't act super townie as scum without consequences. By D3, people would've been wondering why our "obvtown" player somehow didnt get NK'd two nights in a row.

Besides the yep vs yes argument, which felt extremely forced and somewhat scummy, Grim has been acting in a very townie way for the reasons listed above. (I'm willing to accept Grims yes vs yep argument as non-scummy because a) I believed him when he stated he felt like there was a legitimate difference between the two; the explanation didnt feel forced even if the original "gotcha" was, and b) he pointed out last game that he started a semi-dumb conversation to get out of RVS (the "color" thing with Rach) which mirrors the forced arguments in this game early.)

So Grim could be town or scum, and you're pretty much hoping he's town with the knowledge that he could be pulling the wool over your eyes easily? Don't wifom him to scum, just don't be so quick to call him town.

What if he isn't night killed so scum can pin him as scum in LyLo? That's what scum did with me in 1335, because I could easily be pinned as scum.

Also, self meta is also dumb. Don't trust that. Especially when the game he also did it in was a scum game. >_>

[Candillan]

What is your read on me?

Hard to say. As I've stated before, I've been having a tough time of assembling reads this game.

[Candillan]

How am I "walking it back"? I'm saying that I don't have a good read on anyone in this game. (Aside from Homer and Syryana, of course.) All the rest of you are null, and I'm having trouble discerning which two are scum. How is that scummy?

Yes, but that doesn't address what I was saying. My point is that it's odd that you'd write him off as town so early when he's been doing the same things he did as scum. You shouldn't do that.

If you think I'm scum, who would be my partner?

Pedit:
Oh, no, it was that I was an easy wagon in that game. They kept me alive to wagon me to death in LyLo.
Similar situation, though. It was a "how come he's still alive?" situation at its fundamentals.
Also, I was town that game.

Are you really going to only suspect Grim if he gets to D3 and is still alive?

[Candillan]

You definitely implied in post 187 that Grim and I were scum. If you don't want others to question your town/null/scum tells, don't imply scumminess.

lolnope
I was saying that //you// were bussing //your// partner for towncred. (Crand) Nice take on it saying that Grim was bussing you, though.
Either way, I was saying that might be Grim's reason for finding that scummy, not my thoughts.
I'll respond to the other stuff in a sec.

[Candillan]

EBWODP: Re the "who is my partner" question, I have no idea. I am not going to bother looking heavily at those sorts of interactions until we get a flip.

Well, if you see me as scummy, you must be looking at who I'm interacting with. That's how you would find my buddy.

Candy, I never said I wouldn't consider Grim as scum if he says something that strikes me as scum. Feel free to point out where I said that.

Grim is actin townie to me, therefore, he goes in my "town" pile. If he says/ does something scummy, then I will start shifting him to my scum pile. It's not that hard to figure out.

If Grim acts super townie, but somehow doesn't get NK'd, I will start to wonder why. Your case is completely different. You WERE scummy, so mafia leaving you alive makes sense. If Grim acts townie throughout the game, its goin to be hard to generate a mislynch off of him if he isn't seen as scummy. In fact, if anything I would think an "obvtown" would be an obvious early NK. (And yes, if Grim is obvtown and lives to D3, there's a bit of WIFOM in determining the reason behind it, but I will worry about D3 when we get there.)

Yes, but the reason you're seeing him as town is because he's doing things that seem townie. But,

he did the same thing as scum.

For you to base your townread on him from something that he did when he was scum doesn't make any sense, even if it was a townie thing he did.

[Candillan]

Oh, I know what you're talking about. The "I was town that game".
I was letting him know that I was town in 1335, to give him perspective. Would it have been different if I had said "I was town that game, too."?

Funny call on Grim, I missed it.

I am town, Syryana. What are the odds of me/Grim being scum together twice in a row?
1. I personally don't find our interactions suspicious.
2. Those odds are extremely low.
3. I'm still town.

Why have I been having trouble producing reads this game? It's because I'm trying to look at interactions, and I'm seeing too many potential scumteams to be healthy.

Why did you vote me on the "slip", but not Grim?
Why do you like LnGrrrR? All I see in that post where you said you liked him is him subtly buddying you.

If you see self-meta as dumb, why didn't you pressure Grim on that?

UNVOTE:
Forgot I was still voting Shaboo. I think he's being replaced, as he hasn't posted yet. He also has posted in other games, though~

If I was to make a reads list at the moment, it would look like this:

TOWN
Syryana/Homer
Raven
LnGrrrR/Crand/Grim
SCUM

Shaboo and Rach haven't posted nearly enough for me to get a read on them.

[Candillan]

Funny call on Grim, I missed it.

Did you actually find it or are you pretending you did?

I did find something. Not sure if it's what he found, though.

[Candillan]

I find the "of course" part in Candillan calling Homer and Syryana town odd. There's very little that is evident about the statement, unless speaking from the perspective of scum knowing who's town.
Not calling this a slip myself, but I could imagine Syryana's talking about this?

No, I think it's what I pointed out.
I said "Also, I was town that game."
While I said that to give LnGrrrR perspective on my point, Syryana probably saw that as "I was town that game" implying I'm not town this game.

[Candillan]

I find the "of course" part in Candillan calling Homer and Syryana town odd. There's very little that is evident about the statement, unless speaking from the perspective of scum knowing who's town.
Not calling this a slip myself, but I could imagine Syryana's talking about this?

No, I called the two of them town earlier this game because the way they've been posting rings town to me.

Candi, given the logic displayed above, what could Grim post that could make him look townie?

Grim posts scummy: He's posting scummy! He's scum!
Grim posts townie: He's posting townie, which he did when he was scum! He's scum!

See the problem with that logic?

It's not just "him posting townie", it's "him posting the same way he was posting last game". There are different ways to act townie, LnGrrrR.

Oh, I know what you're talking about. The "I was town that game".
I was letting him know that I was town in 1335, to give him perspective. Would it have been different if I had said "I was town that game, too."?

Yes, it would have. You don't get town points for finding your own scumslip!

Okay, I understand. And I wasn't trying to get town points, I was trying to explain my wording.

Funny call on Grim, I missed it.

Oh, did you find that one too?

I thought I did, but I realized I just misread the quote. >_>

I am town, Syryana. What are the odds of me/Grim being scum together twice in a row?
1. I personally don't find our interactions suspicious.
2. Those odds are extremely low.
3. I'm still town.

This is quite possibly the most awful rebuttal I've ever seen. Sorry, but good lord. Of course you don't find the interactions between the two of you suspicious. Appeal to probability confirms your alignment.

Yeah, it was awful. I'm running on two hours of sleep in the past forty-eight hours, and I'm tired. I don't find it suspicious because I know I'm town. Probability was a dumb thing to use, but cmon, the odds are low. Do you find our interactions suspicious?

Why have I been having trouble producing reads this game? It's because I'm trying to look at interactions, and I'm seeing too many potential scumteams to be healthy.

Or you're scum, and you're not wanting to call any of us town because you need to mislynch people. Besides, finding teams is a complete waste of time on Day 1.

I'm not trying to do that. Looking at interactions is the basis of scumhunting, right? That was the basis of the case on Crand, and it's what Thor taught me in 1335.

Why did you vote me on the "slip", but not Grim?

I flipped a coin.

Better than throwing darts at our names. (Re: 1335)

Why do you like LnGrrrR? All I see in that post where you said you liked him is him subtly buddying you.

Because his posts come from a town mindset.

And mine aren't? How do you know they come from a town mindset?

If you see self-meta as dumb, why didn't you pressure Grim on that?

It probably got lost in the walls or I wasn't paying attention.

Oh. Now that you know/realize, will you push him on that?

UNVOTE:
Forgot I was still voting Shaboo. I think he's being replaced, as he hasn't posted yet. He also has posted in other games, though~

If I was to make a reads list at the moment, it would look like this:

TOWN
Syryana/Homer
Raven
LnGrrrR/Crand/Grim
SCUM

I forgot to ask, why are me and homer town again?

Your posts ring town. You did ask this earlier, and I think I responded?

Shaboo and Rach haven't posted nearly enough for me to get a read on them.

pedit:
I'll read that in a few minutes.

[Candillan]

I'm not asking him to change his posting style.
Syryana is stating scumreads and actively scumhunting. Read any of his posts for examples.
Homer, right off the bat, voted Syryana for vote-hopping. That's quite a legitimate reason, and it made me feel good vibes.

[Candillan]

I'm sorry that you have to read through the meta discussion, blegh.

@Grim, I think that scumslip was quite the nice catch, actually. Unfortunately, it wasn't actually a slip.

[Candillan]

Homer, right off the bat...

Not sure if anybody else read that the same way I did...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Wow, that's hilarious

[Candillan]

About to finish reading up but
Did David just commit an Amish tell
More later because phone posting whee

[Candillan]

Okay so I was gone for 24 hours and missed a good two pages wow
My prayers for activity were answered! Walls incoming.

[Candillan]

If you buddied me any harder...

Wait, first, this.
It isn't buddying. It's a read. I read you as town. That comes with a lack of suspicion angled your way with an added hint of friendliness for not being scum. Sorry if that doesn't float your boat.


@Grim on a similar topic, it's hard to buddy someone when they aren't here, lol.

Pedit:
But isn't the Amished tell when you condemn one or more of the actions made by your predecessor? Though reading through it, he was just talking about all the discussions thus far, so I guess it's fair.

[Candillan]

Why is it a bad thing to pressure you? If you're town, pressure brings out the town in you. There's no need to be so sensitive to someone trying to pressure you.
Starting from the second sentence you're dismissing what I said with mere hollow phrases but you did not prove that my argument does not make sense. It does. I would not have used the scumtell-approach if I would know for a fact it's not true, because I'd know well enough that there'd be the theoretical possibility it would come bite me in the ass in case I did. It makes absolutely no sense to do this as scum: the risk of it flying back into my face far outweighs the supposed benefit of pressuring someone you know is town based on a false argument. If you know it's a false argument, you know the pressure is not going to ammount to anything. I didn't know it was a false argument, and therefore used it until shown otherwise.

okay so I was looking at this for a good fifteen minutes trying to figure out what I saw in this and I honestly have no idea
though I really do promise I saw something earlier.

[Candillan]

Syryana, do you honestly think Grim and I are a scumteam? That push is quite odd, to be honest. I don't understand how you could see our interactions as being scummy, and your points on this don't make sense to me. You're saying that we're scumbuddies because the way we're acting independently is scummy, and also that the way Grim is interacting with me is scummy. What do you think of the way I interact with Grim?

@Grim, nice find on that scumslip on Syryana.
also @Grim, though Crand left at a rather inconvenient time, I don't think that weighs in on his alignment. As many have said, both Scum and Town flake.


......Wait, we have less than a week left? O_O

@Rach, that's a fine point.

Where's Shaboostein's replacement?

[Candillan]

I'm not implying I'm not town ever, lol.
Wouldn't that be playing against my wincon?
Yeah but the fact that you bring up Grim's ways of dealing with me, you're talking association. You can't say you aren't.
What if one of us flips town?

[Candillan]

Raven awwwwwwww
See you in another game then, haha.

[Candillan]

I still don't see your point I'm afraid.

Hypothesis: "I wouldn't do this as scum if I knew it was wrong."
Evidence: "I did this."
"I did not know it was wrong."
Conclusion: "I did this as scum."

I don't know of a better way to put it.

Yeah this makes no sense but Grim already replied explaining why

[Candillan]

@LnGrrrR, might be slightly tunnelling? Hahahahahaha.

More posts later when I'm home.

[Candillan]

Wait, before I leave, I must say that Syryana's 180 on Grim seemed unnaturally sudden. You go from him being scum to him being town in the span of a few hours? Who else do you see as scummy, then?

Preview Edit:
So it took a post from someone that wasn't Grim in order to get you to stop your tunnel on him?
That's bad practice. Even when you're tunnelling, you need to listen to what the other person is saying.
Or maybe you're scum trying to backpedal at 120mph.
You still think I'm scum, though, right? I don't feel as if much has been said in my defense, so that'd make sense.

[Candillan]

TOWN
homer/david
Raven's replacement
Grim
Syryana/LnGrrrR
SCUM

Rach/Shaboo's replacement need to post because bleh

The things that made Syryana go Town-->Scum were the Slip Grim pointed out and the sudden 180 on Grim.
LnGrrrR isn't really active, aside from a tunnel he hasn't been pushing as of late. Add Grim's point on how he "isn't treading on any toes", and you get a scumread.
David has been giving me good feelings. He's approaching situations logically and solving them, but not in the "satisfy both sides" way LnGrrrR has been.

Pedit: What is making you reconsider your read on me? I don't think any of my actions warrant an epiphany-like reread of my slot.

Also, we're almost all biased at least somewhat.

[Candillan]

Oh yeah, VOTE: LnGrrrR
Not so sold on a Syryana wagon quite yet.

@Mod, how long until deadline, since we're getting an extension?

[Candillan]

The little she did post looked good.

Also, it's easy to see it as genuine when someone's stroking your beard.

[Candillan]

Oh also, the only suspicions cast upon her were because of Crand, and people see David as town .

[Candillan]

Fair point. I'm phoneposting right now, and it doesn't do well with large blocks of text. I will respond when I get home, though.

Rach's posting seemed to be fluff. She hasn't said almost anything in terns of actual content, though she's been posting elsewhere. Other people were telling her to post, so I didn't feel the need to contribute on that front. On the other hand, I saw close to no one telling Shaboo to post, so I did that instead.

[Candillan]

I'm back.

Candillan

is mister "I am town". Only he's not. If Syryana hadn't been my main scumread, and because I can't fathom the possibility that they're scum together, Candillan would be my top scumread. The main problem is similar to what LnGrrrR said earlier on in the thread: Candillan isn't scumhunting. Almost all of his energy and words is devoted to explaining his own actions,d efending himself. There's very little questioning, very little (refreshing) arguments he presents. He claims he's having a hard time reading people, but I find this kind of a "lazy" argument. I also don't like the way he's using his vote as an instrument. More details below:

I am having a hard time reading people. I don't see much to call people out on that hasn't already been said, and other things I don't even see. What is there to refresh? Restating the same thing over and over doesn't have much impact, and it gets annoying to both type and read it. Go ahead and call me lazy for not wanting to call people out on the same thing over and over.

Post 33 starts with an early townread of both homertve and Syryana. A townread that's never properly explained (aside from gut), yet one that persists in the entire topic.

Yup. I liked how their posts were straight to business. Homer instantly voted Syryana for a legitimate reason. (I also said that before, I think.) Syryana's 27 and 32 made me feel good, and that's what I based my townread on him on.

Post 44 is a wagon vote, but as a vote I'd say it has been his only constructive one. Pity he already removes it two posts later in 47 for reasons that remain unclear until this day.

Really? I'd say it was the most useless vote. The wagon was literally only because he called Raven "darling". It was a stupid wagon, my vote was for a reaction, and I feel as if he reacted well. That's why I unvoted.

After this there is a string of posts where he's calling out for shaboo. That's all he does for a day.

Yup. Nothing new had happened. What was I supposed to do?

In post 85 there's a serious vote which illustrates the point I tried to make earlier: his only posts that have content or those where he has to defend himself. And this defense also forms his way in to presenting a "case" of his own, typically against his attacker, in this case LnGrrrR. I call it OMGUS and he said: So what? Sue me! He then claimed it to be a mere reaction test, but never presented the results of this test and of what he was looking for exactly.

I didn't say exactly what my results were, but obviously it ended with me having a scumread on him. There's a reason why I'm voting him.

In post 103 he mentions a rivalry-ish thing with Syryana I'm completely unaware of. Candillan has been calling Syryana town during this entire game.

I explained this earlier.

In post 105 he drops his vote on LnGrrrR after the latter makes some sort of minor acquiescence. There is no explanation given by Candillan. LnGrrrR sticks to the vote however.

Yup, then I put it back on him.

Post 116: finally the vote on shaboo, after a lot of talk. I kind of had to pressure him into it (in his words: "remind him"), making this vote yet again an externally instigated move, and not the result of internal thought processes. This is not how a vote should be used.

Yeah I really did forget to vote him again. tbh I forgot he was even in the game.

Post 118 he says I'm no longer leaning town (when was I?) simply for being on his case. Something similar happens in post 162, where he claims I'm simply sheeping. Yet another attack only instigated by an attack on himself.

You were leaning town. I liked your points and your cases. You jumping on my case seemed opportunistic, which seems scummy. It felt a bit too easy. I would have called you on it if it was a case on anyone.

Post 142 is set within the long discussion between him and LnGrrrR about the latter reading me as town "like in the last game". I don't see how this discussion helped in finding scum, yet this is one of the only discussions that Candillan was active in and didn't involve himself as the topic.

I believe in the possibility of a LnGrrrR-Grimgroove scumteam. Now does that discussion have more merit to it?

Starting from post 204 the scumslip thing starts. As I already said I didn't find his defense towards Syryana's allegations very strong. Instead of calling the scumslip weak he actually showed an unnatural amount of understanding for Syryana's argument in the case Candillan would be town.

I understand it because I would have called someone on it too.

Candillan is also a strong scumread. I see an associative tell with shaboostein's slot based on the bussing (at least I see it as bussing).

~lol~
I think I already addressed this, too. Asking for him to post ≠ bussing.

My dilemma is of course I know with an almost 100 percent certainty that one of my two reads so far has to be wrong, because I can't see Syryana and Candillan being in one scumteam. But I find arguments against both compelling enough to have them in my scumreads regardless.

So you don't believe we're scum together, or do you know we aren't scum together? Awkward wording here, Grim.

I read pages 1-5, not liking candi very much ATM.

candi- why did you throw out town reads that early in game?
you either called crand, syr, grim, homer, raven(me) town or defended these players within 5 pages. this tells me you have access to information we don't know.

I called out townreads because I read town on them.
Crand - The case was dumb. I called the wagon dumb.
Syryana - RE: My wall to Grim.
Grim - I defended him within 5 pages? I don't recall that.
Homer - RE: My wall to Grim.
Raven - The little she did post was good.

So am I just supposed to throw out scumreads? Am I never supposed to say who I think is town? Townhunting is as helpful as scumhunting, in my opinion.

[Candillan]

Sigh
So are we just waiting for Bane and mkfuba to post with their thoughts? I mean I doubt it took fuba this long to read two pages. Our game isn't THAT wall-happy.

[Candillan]

Compared to my other votes, it was useless. It just verified my thinking Crand was townie.

Before you bring up that reads list where I listed him as leaning scum, I wasn't going to drop the pressure on him entirely.

As for a case on you, I'm tired right now. I'll do it when I'm not so tired. Hope the flood/tornado warnings don't amount to anything. :/

[Candillan]

Shrug
I mean I might be lynched anyway because I'm most people's #2.

[Candillan]

I would add more, but I'm not home yet.
I have a policy of not making lengthy posts on my phone.

[Candillan]

Okay, so I haven't been posting a lot lately because I've been away from computers a lot as of late. Didn't think it was that significant, but might as well let you know since you brought it up.

It could be taken as an AtE, but I'm just stating the facts as is. I'm not sold on a Syryana lynch, as I would prefer a LnGrrrR lynch. As for a case, I'll make one in the morning. I just got home and bleghtired.

My question for you all is what makes LnGrrrR seem town?

w.r.t lynching a lurker, again, I'd prefer to lynch LnGrrrR. I'm fine putting pressure on those slots, though. I hate the idea of lurkers being alive, as they don't add much to the game, and they're keeping a potentially useful slot taken.

Rach's posts are fluffy. I don't think I've seen much else from her.
Nice catch on how Syryana hasn't been here since his 180. I didn't really notice, but that may just be because it's the weekend. Almost no one posts here anyway. I wouldn't expect much from the weekend, lol.

6 days, guys. We can come to a consensus by then, right?

[Candillan]

MAH BEARD
IT HATH BEEN STROKED

Uhm but in all actuality you can't confirm us as town just because we're against a potentially easy mislynch. In fact, one of the reasons why I lost 1335 was because I saw someone as being town due to them not wanting to jump on a mislynch wagon.

[Candillan]

You're right about me not having a beard.
I just shaved. :<

[Candillan]

~I see Rach dancing around MS and posting everywhere but here~

Fair point, David. Do you see me as scummy?

[Candillan]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Candillan]

LnGrrrR don't defend your scumbuddy it's bad practice :/
Especially not with meta ://////

Rach wagon is good, I'll hop on maybe tomorrow or the next day if she doesn't defend herself and/or there are more good points on her.
Case on LnGrrrR incoming wheee

[Candillan]

To be honest, the part that initially bothered me about you was the fact that you called Grim town for something he did as scum. Then, from that discussion, you twisted my case into "whatever he does that's town is scum, and whatever he does that's scum is scum" which was a blatant misrep that you still haven't rescinded. My case was different, and you refuse to acknowledge it. Closed-mindedness is anti-town at least, if not scummy. Your dismissing of him as town for something he did when he was scum still rubs me the wrong way. I don't think a townie would do that, and it seems as if you know he's town.

Then, you made post 194, which read as super scummy. It made it seem like you were justifying him being alive so you could pin blame on him D3 for still being alive.

Also there's the point about the Switzerland complex he's having. He isn't making enemies of anyone aside from me. He hasn't listed any scumreads aside from me, and that, especially, bothers me. Not because of OMGUS, but because he's trying to get you all to warm up to a mislynch by getting on all your good sides. He didn't even deny it when he was asked about buddying to Grim.

Is that enough?

[Candillan]

Okay, now can you all tell me why you think he's town?

[Candillan]

You can't say I don't have a meta.
As soon as people can see how you've acted once, they can call it a meta. If they refer to something you tend to do in general or in a game prior, then that's a meta tell.
Other than that, I feel as if I have already addressed most, if not all, of your comments on me in posts prior.
Also, I'm sick of talking about meta. >_>

[Candillan]

Oh, @your point on me having a scumread on him, he's null, not scum. I guess my reads list wasn't really clear about that.

[Candillan]

Ebwop
Him = Grim

[Candillan]

Null means that he could be scum, and he could also be town. I do believe it's a possibility. Null ≠ town.

I meant to say "You can't say I can't have a meta".

My buddying With Raven started outside this game. Yours wasn't stated.
I didn't say you confirmed buddying, I said you didn't deny it.
More later, gotta get back to class.

[Candillan]

@Grim it took a while because I haven't been home at my computer often, and when I was, I was exhausted :/
Also, the to be honest was for the fact that it was the point on you, not the OMGUS.
More later, not home yet.

[Candillan]

Okay I'm home but I'm about to pass out. I'll respond tomorrow if I can!

[Candillan]

Bahahahahahahahahahaha
Syryana, you're hilarious when you may or may not be intoxicated.
More later, gotta get to class, but
@Homer, why do you see LnGrrrR as town?

[Candillan]

Okay so I forgot today was my school's prom and uh
I just got home, lol. I'm pooped.
Tomorrow for sure!

[Candillan]

Okay so I'm home
What did you guys want me to comment on?

[Candillan]

Why?
I honestly don't understand what's so scummy/suspicious about me.

[Candillan]

sorry double post and dont start OMGUS attacking me, Candillian I'm still only up to page 9 took a break back to reading....

I didn't attack you o_o
How did my post look like an OMGUS attack?



Also, everyone misspells my name as 'Candillian'
There's no second "I" ;~;

[Candillan]

I didn't attack you o_o
How did my post look like an OMGUS attack?

He's saying don't OMGUS him yet, he's not done

Also, everyone misspells my name as 'Candillian'
There's no second "I" ;~;

Hush, Candyland

Ah, alright, I'll OMGUS him when he's done, then.


That name is acceptable.

[Candillan]

Wait, am I at L-2, or L-1?


Also, Syryana, I'm offended. That was nowhere near my case on him. ;-;

[Candillan]

This.

To be honest, the part that initially bothered me about you was the fact that you called Grim town for something he did as scum. Then, from that discussion, you twisted my case into "whatever he does that's town is scum, and whatever he does that's scum is scum" which was a blatant misrep that you still haven't rescinded. My case was different, and you refuse to acknowledge it. Closed-mindedness is anti-town at least, if not scummy. Your dismissing of him as town for something he did when he was scum still rubs me the wrong way. I don't think a townie would do that, and it seems as if you know he's town.

Then, you made post 194, which read as super scummy. It made it seem like you were justifying him being alive so you could pin blame on him D3 for still being alive.

Also there's the point about the Switzerland complex he's having. He isn't making enemies of anyone aside from me. He hasn't listed any scumreads aside from me, and that, especially, bothers me. Not because of OMGUS, but because he's trying to get you all to warm up to a mislynch by getting on all your good sides. He didn't even deny it when he was asked about buddying to Grim.

Is that enough?

[Candillan]

Did anyone state intent?
I swear if I'm derphammered by someone you guys had better quicklynch him/her into nothingness tomorrow.

[Candillan]

Defense against which case? If its Syryana's meta case, all I can say is that I've been frustrated from the beginning because people have been going after supposed "scumslips" but won't go after pretty obvious scum errors that I think Candy is making. It's one of the reasons Im tunneling so hard because Im tryin to get others to see it. I know "OMG you can't tell he's scum you're stupid!" is a supposed scumtell, but Im pretty much at that point right now. It jus feels very obvious to me. I don't feel as "jokey" because, ya know, Im frustrated. Plus all these leavers/lurkers suck for having a good time.

If you're talking about Candy's case, I believe I have already responded to it.

To all on my wagon; do you think my flip will tell you anything about those on the wagon?
To all on Candy's wagon, same question.

Well, from here it's pretty much the same thing. It's a shame you tunnelled on me, as you'll realize soon.
Mothrax was an unfortunate replacement, as he seems to find me scummy wherever I go.
-shrug-
I'm waiting for someone to claim intent so I can flip this wagon around for good.
Tbh this game has become boring to me because of a ton of stuff

-Tunnels with no way out
-Inactive slots everywhere
-My general trouble with accumulating reads
-Everyone not seeing how scummy LnGrrrR is
-People seeing me as scummy for whatever reason
And the list goes on.
I stated my case, it's up to you guys to believe me, but I'm getting tired of putting in the effort.


Also, screw the guy that's gonna call this an AtE.

[Candillan]

When I'm about to be hammered? At this point I don't care. If you lynch me, you'll regret it, unless you're scum.
Now, be nice and jump onto LnGrrrR or Rach, but preferably LnGrrrR. I'm dead soon, anyway.

[Candillan]

On another note, where did Rach go?

[Candillan]

Not gonna full claim until someone states intent.
Nice role fishing, though. I don't know how people on my wagon haven't seen how scummy you are.
Kudos.
Totally up for sharing an e-beer, though. See you there soon!

[Candillan]

I'm a power role.
Whoosh, now can you all unvote me?

[Candillan]

11.5 hours until deadline. Can we all please vote LnGrrrR already? I'm not sure if we're gonna end up getting the extension, and why not get the scum today rather than tomorrow, when I'll be gone?

Pedit:
I'm the doctor. Now, vote LnGrrrR and let's get this over with.

Good luck town, you're gonna need it.

[Candillan]

Reads before I die:
TOWN
Homer - If he's scum I'll eat my hat.
Grim - Sure, you can have this spot. You've worked your way up here.
David - I like your posts.
A conglomerate mess of null made up of Core and Mothrax - They're too new. I haven't gotten a good read on them.
Syryana - Stated this before.
Rach - Still hasn't really posted much aside from a (half-hearted, IMO) jump on my wagon.
LnGrrrR - Duh.
SCUM

[Candillan]

Actually, keep your eye on David. He said somewhere back there about how he played as scum by stating both sides of the argument, and I feel somewhat like he's doing the same thing here.

[Candillan]

Thank you.
Yeeshus, I was going for "scummy enough to not get nk'd, but not scummy enough to get lynched", but then I think I was a bit //too// scummy.

Note how LnGrrrR and Mothrax didn't unvote me when I said I was a PR.
Also note Rach's coincidental (unannounced) absence with her vote on me right before deadline. Note Core's rolefishing.

[Candillan]

Well, there's still time for someone to hypothetically counter-claim me, as not everyone has seen the thread yet.
Also, you seem to be a bit too sure of my death tonight. I don't like that.

[Candillan]

So you suddenly aren't for lynching D1?
Or is it you not wanting to hammer your buddy?

[Candillan]

Candi - I know you think LnGrrrR is scum. Who do you think his partner is?

Based on interactions -
Rach - "Accidentally" left out LnGrrrR from her reads, then slightly bussed him when we called her out on it.
Grim - Unrequited buddying by LnGrrrR, seemed suspicious.
Core - Maybe, those last few posts didn't make me feel so good about him.

[Candillan]

You called me out on softclaiming, though.

[Candillan]

@candi did you notice how I didn't post between you claiming and you calling me out for not unvoting?

Ditto. You can stop being scummy now btw Candi.

That wasn't an act.
Also, you did post after I softclaimed, and it did not include an unvote. Yet now you unvote. It seems as if you're desperate to get a lynch off, why not vote your other scumread, Raven's slot? Your vote on Syryana screams of desperation to lynch someone else.

[Candillan]

You called me out on softclaiming, though.

Soft claiming isn't claiming and anyone can do it. Role-claims are different. They can be counter claimed.

But when I say things such as "I can turn this wagon around" and things like that, is that not claiming a PR? The only thing I left out was the name.

[Candillan]

Lngrr if you vote Syrana and we get David we only need one other vote. I'm sure there is someone who has expressed suspicion. We've got 9 hours...

I'm getting super town vibes from you and don't want you lynched.

Why are you getting town vibes from him?
Are you still getting scum vibes from me?

[Candillan]

@candi: yes, I am still getting scum vibes from you, but you're a claimed PR... I'm not lynching a claimed PR without a damn good reason...

I never saw the case for lngr... I got town vibes from my reread, he was actively participating. He was in the null pile until the last few pages. Offering himself as a sacrifice to avoid a no lynch is town behavior.

Really? I quoted it like a page ago for you, I think.

Also, if I had offered myself as a sacrifice, would you call it "grabbing for townpoints"?

[Candillan]

@candi did you notice how I didn't post between you claiming and you calling me out for not unvoting?

Ditto. You can stop being scummy now btw Candi.

That wasn't an act.
Also, you did post after I softclaimed, and it did not include an unvote. Yet now you unvote. It seems as if you're desperate to get a lynch off, why not vote your other scumread, Raven's slot? Your vote on Syryana screams of desperation to lynch someone else.

You literally just said this:

Thank you.
Yeeshus, I was going for "scummy enough to not get nk'd, but not scummy enough to get lynched", but then I think I was a bit //too// scummy.

If you are town, you're the scummiest town I've played with in my short career. Oh and I had ONE post after you actually claimed.

Oh and that "one post" was literally three minutes before the post I unvoted you, which was the very next post.

And yes, Im desperate to lynch someone because we need some sort of lynch today. I am not voting Raven because there hasn't been a wagon on her.

So why not start one? You said yourself, we have a day. Instead of planning on jumping on an easy wagon, why not start one like you did with me?
Your actions are survivalistic, and that isn't town behavior.
Or do you just want to have your buddy as leaning scum in case you need to bus cleanly later on?

[Candillan]

Also, I'm allowed to be as scummy as I want when I'm a PR. I'm doomed anyway, might as well have some fun with it.

[Candillan]

Thanks, Rach. I guess my tactics didn't really work well, lol. Outed on D1 >_>

Stillllllll not sold on a Syryana lynch, though.

[Candillan]

If you think Syr is town, then why don't you vote for your chief scumread that isn't a PR?
Yeesh, I don't understand how people see you as town. >_>

[Candillan]

that isn't a claimed* PR

I personally thought Raven was town. She was transparent as usual, and seemed as if she was honestly just swamped with everything. You were the one that said that Raven was scummy.

I guess moth has turned that around for you, then, so who //do// you see as scummy?

[Candillan]

I've laid my points down on the table. It's up to you all to choose.
Something tells me a Rach wagon tomorrow is a good idea.
Also, Syryana, there are reasons as to why I would live the night, but ~rolefishing~.

[Candillan]

All I'm saying is that there are ways for me to not die tonight.
Anyway, let's all just post this code below and we'll be better off!

Code: Select all

[vote]LnGrrrR[/vote]

If you buy now, you'll have hit one scum! But you had better act soon, as the offer ends in 15 hours! D:

[Candillan]

Jailkeeper ways
Also WIFOM ways but eh that'd be dumb for scum they'd might as well at least try to kill me

[Candillan]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too.
Just saying that it's a possibility.
Hopefully in that case the jk would jail the killer correctly so we could catch the other scum tomorrow.

Keeping me alive would just cause a potential mislynch later on because I'd still be alive

[Candillan]

Because he's going for the AtE "I'm advocating for my own lynch to look townie so they won't lynch me".
He's done it like three times already.

[Candillan]

8 hours left.
My vote stays.
Where are you all?
Pedit: oh there you are

[Candillan]

GG
I'm a lyncher, LnG was my target.
Good game, all!

[Candillan]

I was kidding yeeshus
Wait did you guys really take that seriously

[Candillan]

Bah! Good luck, town!

[Candillan]

The dead thread is fun times.
Nobody listened to me when I said "note core's rolefishing" when he stated intent to get me to claim.

Good job, town! I thought you were all lost until Rach flipped scum.
Syryana, were you the jk? It was either you or Majiffy.
More thoughts later when not phone posting.

[Candillan]

Yeah whoops
Shutting up now wheee

[Candillan]

You were wrong about me being a little scumbutt.

[Candillan]

YOU NEVER GAVE ME ONE ;-;
I was waiting for a good month for it

[Candillan]

Grim I love you

[Candillan]

"Graveyard QT"
I thought we agreed on Candi's Rage Diary!

[Candillan]

Not post#180, the 180 from Majiffy being scum to Core being scum.
The whole ordeal of you convincing yourself was absolutely beautiful.

[Candillan]

As you know, Rach was the rolecop, Core was the goon. Candillan was the doctor, and the town's only PR. That means you guys practically won the game with only scumhunting and no PR influenced tells. Bravo.

Bravo, really.
Onto other things:
Me talking about meta: I do believe everything I said, yes. I said it in such a way that would make me seem anti-town, which would keep the NK away from me. Unfortunately, you got me to L-1 with neither of the mafiosa voting me, so one stated intent and had me outed, which ended with me drawing the NK anyway.
Back to the Meta, though, I don't believe you can use meta arguments in newbies. Someone //could// act differently willingly, which will throw off the case as a whole. It also wouldn't be a scumtell in that case, as the person could just be trying out a new playstyle. That's what I'm doing, at least.
Blahblahblah you heard the rest GOOD GAME ALL yay

[Candillan]

That's odd. It said the pm was sent to both of us. o_o