Newbie 1572 - Chicken Parmigiana Mafia (Over)

[Diego1487]

VOTE: Shockine
Because that's the next name on the list.

[Diego1487]

Third game onsite. Introduced to game in high school psychology class, loved premise. Found Town of Salem on Facebook a month ago, liked it but looked for more "mature" game.

No.

[Diego1487]

he made me answer personal questions.

Is there a reason you don't want us to ask personal questions?

[Diego1487]

Just gut?

Gut applied Logic. Your "Am I scum?" felt appeasy.

How was mine? Was my "No." less appeasy?

[Diego1487]

@ika,
Who's scripten?

1. I prefer town b/c I enjoy looking for small scum clues. It feels like one of those detective shows.
2. Only town in the forums so far, so I don't feel competent in answering this one.
3. Well, to be honest, not good so far. But I'm working on it!

[Diego1487]

Bitmap is slinging the proverbial pasta all over the place and trying to see what will stick. Classic first day scum play.

@Trip Ds, as resident IC, what's your view on this?

I can definitely see that as a scum play, but also as a town play. Throw shit against the wall and see who squeals the most is scum.

[Diego1487]

UNVOTE: Shockine

I'll hold off a real vote for more information.

[Diego1487]

Alright, I'm going to teach you guys about mafia because I'm going through one of those hyper-activity aggressive phases.

First off, go look at your role PM. Mine says I'm some form of town. (DO NOT QUOTE YOUR ROLE PM THOUGH)

Why the fuck do I need confirmation from other players if I'm town or not? I know I'm town. I don't have to appease anyone. I'm going to shit on people if they need to know if they're town

because they're trying to suck up to the town in order to not get lynched.

I'm going to post reads on what I think of people because why would I hide what I think about people? I'm town.

I don't need to cherry pick my words. Scum has to cherry pick their words.

This is why hyper-active people are usually town.

The bolded sections are what I get from this post. Bitmap's approach to scum hunting is to find players looking

not

to get lynched as opposed to helping town. This correlates with previous posts of players looking "appeasy." Putting aside the effectiveness of this approach, for now, Bitmap is attempting to scum hunt. I give some town points for that.

However, I think the "cherry picking" section could have been rephrased. While you do not have to cherry pick as town, you do have to avoid pissing off other townies. I'll be watching to see if he uses this as proof later in game that his play is town-indicative.

[Diego1487]

From what I can tell,

Bitmap is either really BAD at mafia or is pretending to be. Be wary of anything he's selling as lessons (RE: Post #50).

First he's going to teach us about mafia, and the reason is that he's going through "one of those hyper-activity aggressive phases." - I can agree with the aggressive part. Apparently he's one of those people who uses profanity enough to make a sailor blush. Why? Reasons.

Then he tells you to look at your role PM and slips in not only a "Look At Me I'm So Townie (LAMIST)" but also throws in a bit of Wine with the "some form" bit, implying possible PR status. This is a decent play if he's actually a VT, because it might be enough to get team scum to kill him. It's also a decent play as scum because he's thrown out a breadcrumb super early in case he has to claim a PR.

Then comes the random profanity. Since Bitmap is playing dumb, I'll explain why townies need to read as townies: the town only gets a small number of mislynches before they lose. If you don't learn how to play town properly, and you get lynched a lot as town because you look scummy, then you are hurting your win condition and the other players every game you play. It's important to avoid looking scummy. In fact, it's a really good skill to develop, both for town and scum play. Ideally, every time you land Vanilla Townie, you want to become a trusted probtown/conftown to most of the game so the mafia have to seriously consider killing you. Any time you can eat a night kill as a VT, you are helping town big time.

Everyone should be careful of words and phrasing.

Using phrases like "I'll be honest" and such are pretty classic scum tells, for example.

Using them as town is just bad play; Bitmap's assertion that only scum need to put any care into word choice is atrociously bad.

And finally ...

Alignment has no causal relationship with activity.

Period. -- Hyper-active townies who are abrasive and profane and abusive to other players often get into town v. town fights and give scum an easy smokescreen to hide in, so you will frequently see games where active townies cause scum to simply go with the flow. In those cases, the scum aren't posting less or being less active because they're scum ... they're doing so because the townies in question are making things easy for them.

That whole post is tripe Bitmap.

Again, bolded sections are important to me.

So, let me get this straight...You're going to start off the post with, "Bitmap is an idiot, don't listen to him. Who you

should

listen to is me. I'll give the lessons here." (paraphrased, of course) I don't like it. Bitmap has called you out, and your response is to try to discredit him by "out-lessoning" him to the town. Seems to me like you don't want us listening to what he has to say. Scum points for you.

I don't know how I feel about use of certain phrases, like "I'll be honest." I'll be honest, I use that phrase in real life all the time. If I use it here out of habit, are you going to scum read me? I just don't think, in forums with strangers, that you can make an assumption like that. However, I'm open to discussion on it with anyone that can persuade me otherwise.

I agree with activity having no relationship with alignment. At this point, I believe everyone knows the "scum lurk" strategy, which means is now null.

[Diego1487]

Activity has a relatively high correlation with alignment; there are of course exceptions and outliers but it's not something to be ignored.

Is the correlation the same for Newb games as Non-Newb?
Are you the exception, the outlier, or ...

[Diego1487]

@bitmap, I see your popcorn gif, and I raise you one.

[Diego1487]

On Diego. Asking inane questions that don't really benefit his investigations:

Is there a reason you don't want us to ask personal questions?

(I don't see how this question can help anyone get a read into someone's thought process. To me, it seems like an easy, off the bat, towntell attempt).

As does this:

How was mine? Was my "No." less appeasy?

Why is he asking Bitmap this? Bitmap can be scum fhpov and again, it's a pretty inane question.

This post as well:

I can definitely see that as a scum play, but also as a town play. Throw shit against the wall and see who squeals the most is scum.

'it's a scum play, but it can be a town play', then goes on to reference how it is a scum play. It is safeguarding. He is scum.

1. Scum want to keep conversations generic as possible. I was curious what his answer would be. Unless I'm mistaken, he never gave an answer.

2. I didn't understand how "nope" was appeasy and "no" is not. Still don't. Seems like he's just making things up.

3. I was looking to get any sort of meaningful conversation started on a topic that I can see the merits of both sides.

[Diego1487]

@Zombiekitty

My Ika vote was random. I'll wait to see if Bitmap defends himself or

anyone else looks scummy.

So you're only looking for people who "looks" scummy rather than someone who actually IS scummy? Hm.

This is the third version of my post. It's finding hard to put this into words, but uh lessee here
Your argument is that I used the word "looks" instead of "is", correct?
This implies, in your mind, that I am mafia/really bad town (actually the latter is true but I haven't played this for a year so) because ???
At this stage in the game (Day 0 or 1 [?]), with no night actions, and not a whole lot of posts, the difference is arbitrary. Nobody

is

scum– well, as far as any of us know (except for scum I guess :\). We can only go off of who

looks

like scum.
Does any of that make sense? Right now, the difference between the words is negligible and hardly an indicator of my mafia-ness.
Or something ¯\_( )_/¯

I'm going to take a crack at this one. As you said, only scum know who scum are, so they are trying to find others that

look

scummy. He's making the argument that you scum slipped by admitting that is what you're doing.

While I'm not willing to classify you as scum based solely on this, I will keep it in the back of my mind.

[Diego1487]

I do a meta read on Drixx later.

That will be a bit of a waste of your time. I'm in my 2nd and 3rd games on site, and I was posting huge walls of text and using hyperactivity in my first game when I replaced into a scum slot. I'm intentionally avoiding doing that as a general rule, and my posts are therefore more succinct, and sometimes truncated for that reason.

It seems interesting how much you seem to be attempting to run/guide the game.

There is more to meta than finding post lengths and activity level. What I find interesting is your annoyance of Bitmap's playstlyle when you also try to run/guide the game.

[Diego1487]

4. Well that's your opinion I suppose, what's your read on him? I scumread Diego because he looks contrived and is constantly safeguarding himself. He's playing cautious and nervous and I don't like it.

5. It's as inane as asking someone else (who could be scum fhpov) on a whim d1 if they thought their 'no' was appeasy.

Also what is a VCA? This is only my second game on MafiaScum.

Well clearly my intent wasn't clear to you. I wasn't asking bitmap for confirmation or safeguarding or anything else you want to call it. I was calling bitmap out for his BS. I don't care what answer he gives, if he ever gives one, "nope" is no worse or better than "no" to that answer. However your need to harp on this is scummy when I have given answers to your claims.

Vote count analysis. The theory that one can find scum based on voting history and patterns.

[Diego1487]

@Drixx
57 you tell us not to listen to bitmap'a lesson and then proceed to give a lesson of your own.

92 you tell us specifically not to meta you for reasons that only cover half of the reasons to meta.

[Diego1487]

You mean scum hunting as opposed to posting wall posts on how your theory is so vastly different than this site's generally accepted theory? No, I think I'll stick to scum hunting

[Diego1487]

I don't believe I even have the longest post in the game, nor are my posts consistently long.

I apologize, you are correct. Your post are not wall posts now that I look back at them, but they sure do feel like wall posts once I've finished reading them.

I don't particularly believe that evaluating someone's play on a meta level is necessarily useful. You seem to think it is, and that I don't understand.

Question: Do you believe that playing with the same people multiple times improve your ability to read them? If so, you agree with the premise of meta. The site is large, and playing games with the same people is unrealistic. However, reviewing previous games does give the ability to "manufacture" the playing experience with that player.

[Diego1487]

Diego's Reads:

DDD/Zombie Kittie/Bitmap: Town reads. Good posts with sound logic.

Pramitz: Null for now. Going to give more time to post since little activity due to personal issues.

Letters: Scummy. Jumped on Bitmap, and then off extremely quick with no vote. Hasn't responded to any of my responses about me safeguarding. Seems to be avoiding topic?

ika: Bored veteran player? Few posts, and almost zero helpful posts.

Drixx: Leaning scum. Very few helpful town posts. Seems to want to drift conversation away from scum hunting, leading to town apathy. Will give benefit of doubt that he's working on adjusting playstyle.

Kaleidoscope: Inactive player that when does post, is not town helpful. Scum read.

[Diego1487]

VOTE: Kaleidoscope

[Diego1487]

So you null read Pramitz and ika for lack of contribution but fos and vote Kaleidoscope for lack of contribution?

I nulled Pramitz because of his extended away time. I said that in the post. I nulled ika because I feel inactivity due to boredom of a day one newb game instead of scuminess. However if doesn't change it will then move to scum read.

I voted kaleidoscope because of inactivity AND when he did post they were fluff. That's more scummy activity than the other two.

[Diego1487]

Fluff=any post that does not progress the game. If I'm not mistaken all of his posts are fluff. The fact that all of his posts are fluff is scummy.

[Diego1487]

Then ika and Pramitz are also scum, using that logic. Being away due to personal reasons or lack of posting content this early on is not alignment indicative, and neither are fluff posts at this stage, because as you say, they are posts that hold no substance.

VOTE: Diego1487

Inactivity with only fluff posts is always scummy no matter the stage of the game.

I am not giving ika and Pramitz a free pass. I am saying, at this time, kaleidoscope is scummier than the rest. Hence the vote.

[Diego1487]

There's nothing to question. They either start contributing or they start looking like scum. Patience young grasshopper...

[Diego1487]

UNVOTE: kaleidoscope

[Diego1487]

DDD is town based on experience from past games.

I'll be honest, I'm paranoid about this.

[Diego1487]

VOTE: DDD

Reasons? They may help settle/stir up my paranoia.

[Diego1487]

Everyone seems to think I was scum. The last game I played on this site I was scum:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6399643

Make of it what you will.

Letters, put yourself in our shoes. If another player, for argument sake me your current scum read, posted this, how would you view it?

[Diego1487]

If you think we're that gullible, you deserve this.
If you are that naive of a scum player, you deserve this.
If you are that weak of a town player, you deserve this.

VOTE: fjkldsjh

That puts fjkldsjh at L-1. Please state intent to hammer before any vote for him.

[Diego1487]

I looked at Diego's post and it's a pretty awful move to put someone at hammer for being "that weak of a town player".

I didn't put him at hammer for that reason. I put him at hammer because he is the scummiest player. Post 190 was the one that leap frog your spot, and post 198 was the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Diego1487]

VOTE: Diego

I'll see where this vote goes.

I'm also curious who jumps on this counter wagon.

[Diego1487]

Can you explain, diego?

The entire premise of meta is to find subtle tells and nuisances that a player does without knowledge. As soon as a player is aware of these tells, they are useless because they can be exploited.

Handing us a game, and saying "Here, this is how I play as scum." is pointless. Anything he did in that game can be manipulated for this one, making reading the game a waste of time.

[Diego1487]

Immediately after this post, diego voted kaleidoscope, which is off. letters was at 3 votes, and he could have put him at L-1 at this point, instead of 2 pages later.

At that time, I viewed the lack of participation, and the fluff when participating, as scummier than letters. Hence the vote.

When Kaleidoscope left, I wanted to give that player a chance to change my mind, therefore the unvote.

Letters scum posts caused him to leap frog Kaleidoscope's spot. Hence the vote. His reaction to the vote strengthens by belief that I am correct.

[Diego1487]

Placing a vote on a day 1 lurker just seems like lazy scum to me, especially when you follow up the lurker vote to vote onto a strong wagon.

I didn't place the vote on Kaleidoscope for being a lurker. Otherwise, it would have been placed on ika. However, I stated explicitly that my vote was because he did not contribute to anything worth while to the group. That is what is scummy, and that is why he got the vote.

I could see your reasoning for "jumping onto a strong wagon" if it weren't for the fact that I've scum read him from the beginning 147.

[Diego1487]

Otherwise, it would have been placed on ika.

I should have stated, "ika at the time." The last few days he's been much more active, which I expected from a veteran player getting closer to deadline.

[Diego1487]

That is jumping onto a strong wagon, even if you held off voting for a few pages

My readlist was posted later, but all reasons I gave were from pages ago. Should I have posted my read list earlier? Yea, but I wanted to take my time and get everyone in there on one post.

[Diego1487]

Yes, they have.

Scum: letters and Bitmap.
Town: DDD, Pramitz, Drixx
Null: ika, numberQ, Zombiekitty

Order does not represent strength of reads. Just order that they came to my mind.

[Diego1487]

Sure, here it goes.

As soon as I put letters at L-1, Bitmap jumps off and quickly starts a counter wagon. Covering for his scum partner.

DDD really hasn't changed from original read. Logical posts that help to move the game along for town.

[Diego1487]

Appearances. Being the one of the first few to jump on the wagon if the lynch happens anyways.

[Diego1487]

I don't know your back story Pramitz, but I believe this is your first game here. I just finished my first newb game before starting this one. I know what you're feeling, I felt the same way. Day 1 felt like the longest two weeks ever. However, believe me that the action is just about to start, and the best is yet to come. Action speeds up hours before the Day 1 deadline(~24-48 hours), and then Day 2 will be all that you can ask for.

Also, four people have posted today(you, me, letters, and Drixx). I will say that we do have a pretty good town, and I'm fully confident that we'll smoke out the scum.

[Diego1487]

Also, letters townbled a bit by the way he reacted on his L-1 vote. He mentioned who to go after after getting lynched with reasons which irks me as town.

Also, Diego has an OMGUS reason on me.

No, my suspicion of you is two-fold: your interaction with letters early on in the game, and how you've ignored, and now try to make a town read, his reaction to reaching L-1.

It feels like you were "coaching" letters early on, telling him to "wrong move, try harder." 154

A player crying out for a lynch of another player who just put him at L-1 is in no way a town move. He hasn't been lynched yet. He's still playing the game. Once a lynch has occurred, twilight cries for a lynch is town. During the game, its just OMGUS. The fact that you're trying to cover this up, and make it look like town, further strengthens my belief that you're his teammate.

[Diego1487]

Ok, it looks like there are four players that lynchable today: Letters, DDD, Pramitz, and me.

How about this, list in order your lynch target, strongest to weakest. Maybe we can get a consensus that way.

Mine: Letters, Pramitz, DDD, Diego

[Diego1487]

It's answering the question I set forth truthfully. I'm lynchable because Bitmap has his vote on me and Pramitz is willing to lynch me. As you said with your accusation of ika, we're running out of time to lynch anyone, so I feel it's in our best interest to find out who is the most lynchable and see if we can get 5 votes on that person.

[Diego1487]

Well this sucks. I'll be paying attention throught the night (I'm eastern standard time) if anyone wants to discuss. I'll also check in the morning before deadline to help with a hammer vote if need be.

[Diego1487]

Which lynch will give us the most information for Day 2? I argue it would be DDD. If he flips town, we'd have to look real hard at ika as scum, as well as question Drixx's motives. If he flips scum, Bitmap would have a lot of questions to answer.

Would any other lynch be as useful?

[Diego1487]

anyone else would only be for the stake of deadline

This would be really helpful right about now.

[Diego1487]

I want everyone to use this twilight and the upcoming night phase to seriously consider his/her commitment to this game. The fact that we no lynched isn't what infuriates me; it's that we didn't even try. Few were even attempting any sort of strategy. I'm willing to put in the time and energy to continue this game, but if you're not, please let everyone else know so that you don't waste our time or yours.

[Diego1487]

Whoops, but the wrong tag I think.

VOTE: Letters

Frankly, I agree with Letter's assesment of NumberQ's initial slide into the game.

What assessment?

Also, I'm feeling a lot less aggressive about Letters now. I agree with DDD's read that he's acting a lot townier than he was, and I have to say I'm starting to see him from Drixx's POV too.

UNVOTE:

Though that begs the question as to why DDD is still voting Letters.

DDD, you say Letters is looking townier, but you're still voting him. Does that mean you still think he's the scummiest at the moment, enough to justify keeping him at L-1? Despite having ika on your "Would like to lynch" list?

I'll hold my vote until he answers and I have some more time to look through stuff.

The vote and unvote don't bother me. It is what it is. However, you ask DDD a question, and state you're holding a vote until the answer....

#208; Do I think he's the scummiest? No, I think that's ika. Do I think he's scummy enough to keep my vote on him, clearly, otherwise I wouldn't have my vote on him.

He answers you, and you not only don't respond, you disappear at deadline. When the town needed you most, you're no where to be found.

This is such a strange game.

VOTE: Pramitz

Also, hello to BRantz. Let's hope you're easier to read than Letters.

Oh! Hello, welcome back to the party, 2 WEEKS before deadline! And look, here's your vote, right on time. Funny, no explanation either...

Finished my catch up.

Drixx started out decent, but now seems way too focused on how to reconcile his past playstyle with this site. Just play the game, dude. His long posts of theory-discussion and complaining could be a mask to try and stifle actual discussion, as I think someone said already.

Drixx, if I'm understanding your vote on DDD correctly, it's based on semantics and the way he answers people. Am I wrong? If not, why vote him for such flimsy reasons when there are plenty of scummier people out there?

Pramitz also seemed pretty town at first, but there's a wishy-washiness in his posts that I don't like. The only exception is when he votes Letters, which is interesting in itself. He immediately preempts the possibility that he's sheeping, and then later does indeed use that as justification that it wasn't sheeping.

Why so focused on looking like you aren't sheeping? Also, why do you want to lynch Diego if Letters ends up being scum? What if Letters ends up town?

Letters is probably scum guys.

Letters, why is Drixx obvious town according to you?

Letters

This puts him at L-1 again.

The last time you said anything about Pramitz was 4 days before deadline. What's changed that has warranted the vote on Day 2?

[Diego1487]

x_x
I cant work with no flips or kills. This is like day 1 all over again ugh

^second that.

so lets make it interesting:

who would you kill n1 and why?

Your first. Who would you kill?

[Diego1487]

oh my second quesiton has a lot of reason behind it. im waiting for people to legit answer it though

There are only 3 people that could possibly have a reason behind this question in a Matrix6 game:

1. Jailor
2. Doctor
3. Scum

These three players are the only players that could have any information as to the no kill last night. The jailor knows he either saved the townie or stopped the scum. The doctor knows he saved the townie. The scum knows he either was jailed or the target was healed.

I believe this is a scum slip to ask this question. The Jailor/Doctor needs to stay hidden from scum, so I see no way that either would ask this question. Scum would love to know the answers in hope to smoke out the Jailor/Doctor for the next night kill.

With this slip, your lurking and discussion-killing activity Day 1, I move my vote.

VOTE: ika

L-1

[Diego1487]

Please explain then.

[Diego1487]

Yeah, you're right. I did forget about the 1-shoot bulletproof.

But I don't think that make my argument any less valid. I argue that asking the question puts the Doctor/Jailor in more suspicion than he/she gains from hearing the answer. That's why I don't think a Doctor/Jailor would ask it.

It's still a scummy question and with his previous activity, I placed the vote.

[Diego1487]

my wagon was made of of the shit reason of me asking a question.

The only person on your wagon that even mention the "question" is me. All other votes came before you even asked it. Maybe there's more to your wagon than you're seeing..

[Diego1487]

It's all for show. He knows its against win con, he's just throwing a fit hoping for town points. Saying you're willing to do something that's impossible, hoping that you get credit for saying it, doesn't work. It's like saying to your wife, "I'd buy you the world if I could." You can't, so it's completely worthless. Just like post 330.

[Diego1487]

Reads:
Town: zombie, Brantz, drixx, number q, ddd.

Null: Pramitz

Scummy: bitmap

Scum: ika

[Diego1487]

Sorry, I was exhausted last night, didn't feel like elaborating at the time.

Zombie's frustration feels like it comes from a genuine VT player.
BRantz, Number Q, and Drixx are scum hunting harder than anyone, and feels legit.
DDD is really a gut feeling town, but if ika were to flip town, that feeling would probably change, depending on the night kill.

Pramitz, or better his replacement, is null for lack of activity.

ika doesn't have to be explained, that's a dead horse at this point.

Bitmap is truly more a gut feeling for now.

[Diego1487]

Who is reading Zombiekitty as townie and why?

His reaction reads classic VT to me. Excited he's finally getting something to work on, and then nothing.

[Diego1487]

After catching up, nothing has changed my opinion from my last read list. Jelly seems town, but it's too early for me to make a call yet since he replaced in.

[Diego1487]

Yea, I pretty sure we just lynched ika. Not sure if you're aware of that Zombie..

[Diego1487]

while a nk can lead out speculations and stuff, i find the "no nk whine whine" means:

your a vt who is just board with the damned game
or
your scum whos pissed their nk failed

I agree with his statement on this. After that accidental lynch, you're either confirmed VT or you just pulled off the greatest bus of all time! haha

[Diego1487]

I figured the "haha" and would be enough to make it clear it was a light-hearted post. I believe I made it clear in 394 that I read you as town.

[Diego1487]

Whoa Zombie, easy...easy.

It was a joke. Kinda like when the trusty sidekick in an action movie looks at the ruggedly handsome hero and says, "Well, this plan is going to save all of humanity...or you just doomed us to a life of damnation."

[Diego1487]

Ok, I re-read the entire thread last night, and I think I have something. I believe I found where DDD and Bitmap are having a "scum" conversation. I apologize for the wall post in advance, but I feel this needs to be in one post to work.

Can we just assume I said everything Bitmap did? Read a post, start typing a response, see Bitmap made the response I was going to. See the next post, start typing a response, Bitmap did it. It's very rude.

I'm very sorry. I can't help it when I'm town. :/

Also, which posts were you planning on responding to?

#13, #23; let's just go with every post that ends in the number 3 for good measure.

@DDD:

Quick question that I would like to be answered, when you play forum mafia, do you read everything that has been posted and then make a post or read a post at a time and respond if need be per post?

I don't think I have a definitive style in that regard; like this post is being written after reading these two posts and the rest of page 2 but not page 3. Sometimes I'll read everything, sometimes I'll snap reply.

UNVOTE: Bitmap

This conversation was one of the first things that made me nervous about this pair. It was random, and I didn't understand the point. However, I believe it was used to cover up day talk on strategy. DDD makes hardcore emphasis to the number 3 in the above post. I looked, and I am the third player listed in the first post by the moderator. I feel its DDD telling Bitmap to go after me for the lynch.

@DDD:

Quick question that I would like to be answered, when you play forum mafia, do you read everything that has been posted and then make a post or read a post at a time and respond if need be per post?

I don't think I have a definitive style in that regard; like this post is being written after reading these two posts and the rest of page 2 but not page 3. Sometimes I'll read everything, sometimes I'll snap reply.

Lame. I was trying to do a reaction test and this didn't tell me squat. But I'm still leaning town on you.

I believe this is continued "scum strategy." Bitmap is telling DDD that he didn't pick up the secret text??

VOTE: Diego

I'll see where this vote goes.

Bitmap puts a hollow attempt to start a bandwagon on me, just as requested.

Hi, I'm back.

My case on Diego was his really bad reasoning for his L-1 vote on him.

If you think we're that gullible, you deserve this.
If you are that naive of a scum player, you deserve this.
If you are that weak of a town player, you deserve this.

This was a really bad reason for an L-1 vote. If town, you would of said "You're scum" in some sort of fashion.

Also, letters townbled a bit by the way he reacted on his L-1 vote. He mentioned who to go after after getting lynched with reasons which irks me as town.

Also, Diego has an OMGUS reason on me.

When pressed, Bitmap gives poor reason for his vote on me. He ranted earlier in post 50 that town players don't have to mince words, so saying that my wording is scum doesn't add up. His second reason has nothing to do with me, only deals with letters' reaction. His third reason doesn't even make sense, it was just thrown in there to add "more proof" to his reasoning.

I know everyone doesn't like looking for scum pairs, but I wasn't looking for this when I found it. If DDD and Bitmap weren't veteran players, I would just put this off as a coincidence. However, I believe that they feel they can pull this off in a Newbie game without getting caught.

[Diego1487]

@mod: did you prod Bitmap, or did he asked to be replaced? I don't see where you prodded him?

[Diego1487]

Well, based on the reactions, I figured I needed to update my pic.

DDD, look, I don't have all of it figured out. I can't, I wasn't there pre-game. But, I don't think it went anyway you just described. More likely, the conversation went, "Bitmap, I'm going to leak to you who I want you to go after. Pay attention, it'll be disguised."

Is it so crazy that you, or any scum for that matter, would attempt to converse with a scum partner in-game? It was very subtle, and easily dismissed and it seems everyone is doing just that.

[Diego1487]

Do you think there is something behind what Diego is saying? This might be something that anyone can chime in with but what purpose does a scum DDD get out of signaling his scum partner Bitmap to target Diego? DDD made no real moves against Diego himself. I ISO'd DDD and his read on Diego has been consistently null from what I gather. Maybe Diego, you can point out the benefit of this plan since you're the one who noticed it/brought it up.

Both scum do not have to be on a wagon for it to be a scum play. The benefit of the plan is a more cohesive strategy on targets. Mafia is balanced because scum have a built-in advantage of knowledge. Using this knowledge to their advantage can swing the game in their favor. Because Bitmap was the only other scum, he would be the only one to know what to look for.

[Diego1487]

Yes, I consider it scummy for both. However, I feel Zombie's reaction in post 448 is genuine. It reads town to me b/c she did not want to quick lynch on day 2, which is a scum move in general.

[Diego1487]

I was running under the, I guess misguided assumption that scum did not have the ability to talk to their partners prior to day one,

You basically just confirmed yourself town in my eyes. Post 470 is argued on the premise that you believe scum can't talk pre-game, and you'd know that you could if you were scum in this game.

[Diego1487]

I feel it like this: if it's the Doctor, we have two confirmed town players. If it's a Jailkeeper, they might want to consider claiming especially if they've protected the same person twice idk

Im pretty drunk so I should be taken with a grain of salt

There's too many "ifs" for me. One-shot bulletproof could have been night one or two. The jailor could have jailed the scum or victim. The doctor could have saved the bulletproof townie or targeted the scum when the bulletproof was hit.

I just don't see any reason the town should want claims today.

[Diego1487]

No seriously, why would you place a vote on him this far from deadline and no eminent pressure on him if he's not your #1 scum?

[Diego1487]

First, sorry for disappearing all of a sudden. Work has been hellacious. Anyway, everyone knows where I stand on scum.

I've sat here for the last 10 minutes voting for DDD, then erasing it and voting for Seraphim. I keep going back and forth on who I want to see lynched first. I'll hold my vote until I'm more confident.

However, I do feel DDD is playing this game trying to reveal as little information as possible. He voted NumberQ, and still has not given his reason for it.

Seraphim has been pushing his vote hardcore against DDD since the moment he's arrived, and it just feels like bussing to me. His reasons are previous meta and that the ika lynch was too easy. ika didn't go super-troll until

after

DDD voted for him, starting the wagon. Therefore, he wasn't low-hanging fruit at the time.

[Diego1487]

In post 527, Diego1487 wrote:
Seraphim has been pushing his vote hardcore against DDD since the moment he's arrived, and it just feels like bussing to me.


...why does your mind immediately jump to bussing?

You caught me DDD. Trying to answer this question, I realized it was confirmation biased. I have no reason to believe it was bussing other than I wanted it to be bussing.

Therefore, VOTE: DDD.

[Diego1487]

What I don't understand is that many days before that happened he calmed down from yelling at everyone and no one seemed to care at all.

I didn't care because even after he cooled down, I still believed he was scum. You can't possibly stay wired up for days on end. He eventually had to calm down, but that didn't change the fact that he was super-scummy. I stand behind that lynch, even though it was a mislynch.

[Diego1487]

I've felt suspicious of you and Bitmap from the beginning. Not you individually, but y'alls interaction between each other bothered me. I felt Bitmap was scum on Day one, nothing changed. When I re-read the thread, I felt I found where you and Bitmap were talking within the game. I still feel I could be right about this, but we won't find out until after it's over.

Therefore, with early suspicion and what I feel I found, I realized I was trying really hard to make the puzzle pieces fit my grand scheme. That's wrong, and I'm not going to use that route anymore. I still have that you and Seraphim as my scum team, but I agree with the assertion that BRantz is acting very scummy today. With all that said, I believe lynching you today is the best play for our town. Of all of my scum reads, you are the most dangerous in the end game IMHO.

[Diego1487]

1.If bitmap isn't scum, is DDD still scum in your opinion, or if DDD isn't scum is bitmap still scum?

My scum reads for all three: DDD, Bitmap/Seraphim, and BRantz, are all individually separate. Clearly I'm wrong about one, only 2 scum exist, so of course Bitmap/Seraphim is scum if DDD isn't, and visa versa.

2. If the bitmap slot is your best scum read why are you voting DDD instead?

Bitmap/Seraphim isn't my strongest scum read, DDD and BRantz. I voted DDD b/c he is the player I fear more at the end game pulling out the win for scum.

3. If Seraphim is one of your top scum reads, how does that read affect your read of me/ what parts of the "cases" against my play do you agree with (and don't just say all of it, I want to know where your head is at)?

I'm not sure I understand your question perfectly, I think you're asking my case against you? It that's correct, its because Letters was super-scum, and your day 3 play. You voted for Jelly earlier, a player I consider confirmed town, reasoning in post 480. You then move your vote to NumberQ because you don't like his play style? You feel that discussion w/o placing a vote is scum? You're concocting reasons for a vote, which is a huge scum tell.

[Diego1487]

I apologize. I didn't explain my position well enough. I wasn't suspicious of DDD individually at first. That's clear by town reading him day one. However I was suspicious of his interaction with bitmap on day one. After night two, I then changed my read of DDD to scum. That read is stands on its own from bitmap.

[Diego1487]

@ mod, no big deal but BRantz only has two votes.

[Diego1487]

@ drixx, I know earlier you said something about reading DDD as scummy. Where are you at on him right now?

[Diego1487]

My case is a lot based on what I see as your contrived case against me (I do admit this could be colored by OMGUS).

Color me convinced.

VOTE: BRantz L-1

The more you post, the more scummy you get today.

I still feel that Dave's and Seraphim's slots are scummy, but I'm just about 100% on BRantz right now. I've got town on everyone else.

[Diego1487]

I would not mind a compromise lynch on zombiekitty if it prevents a BRantz lynch.

I don't understand this. If he's still scum in your eyes, then why work so hard to not get him lynched today?

Also, when you say compromise, do you mean you'll go with BRantz tomorrow if we go Zombiekitty today?

[Diego1487]

Desperation to stop the lynch? Please, I'm willing to lynch him today, I just think you're the better lynch. And I don't understand what I'm supposed to be responding to.

[Diego1487]

If we want to talk desperation attempt to stop a lynch, I think its best to look at Seraphim's play to stop your lynch. Is that an associative tell?

[Diego1487]

In 542 he's implying that Ika should have been easy to see as town -- perhaps he left the ika wagon to set up this moment.

Yeah, he pretty much just nailed that. Believing that ika was town does not make you town. As it was said, I believe it was Drixx, scum would have loved to leave ika alive in this town, knowing they could get him mis-lynched the next day, or possibly even in MYLO. If that's the association you want, have at it.

Lol Tell me why it is scummy that I see a contrived case, but admit there might be bias in my view diego? I'm all ears.

Reading back my statement, I can see how it looks like I was using that quote for my reason for the vote. The fact that you believe his reasons are contrived doesn't make you look scummy. I don't agree with you, but that's a different argument. The sole reason I used that quote was because your interaction with Dave during that time convinced me that you were my #1 scum read. I apologize for the confusion.

I said you were scummy, because once again, you jumped ship to another wagon. This in and of itself isn't the end of the world, but you're not actively pushing these wagons. You're just starting to start them, or trying to get momentum going on them.

[Diego1487]

In 542 he's implying that Ika should have been easy to see as town -- perhaps he left the ika wagon to set up this moment.

This in and of itself isn't the end of the world, but you're not actively pushing these wagons. You're just starting to start them, or trying to get momentum going on them.

So I am only quoting this portion of the post, but real quick... which is it?

1.

Do you think I believed ika to be town, or do you think I knew?

As for this. Not actively pushing wagons?

2.

Isn't trying to get momentum moving on them exactly that?

3.

Give me one example of a place that I started a wagon just to start it.

1. I think you're scum, so I think you knew ika was town. However, my point is that you trying to get town points for leaving the ika wagon is LAMIST.

2. You can get momentum going by simply piling up votes.

3. Today's vote on me is the quickest to come to mind

That is a conspiracy theory for the ages... and not one very well thought out.

VOTE: diego1487

Picking up where I left off yesterday.

You vote me, for either the conspiracy theory, or yesterday's reads? Not sure which.

UNVOTE:

@zombie: While I agree that warning about L-1 probably should have been given (especially since this is a newbie game), you should get in the habit of counting the votes yourself before voting if it is close. There are plenty of times in the other types of games here that people will put someone at L-1 and say nothing, so it is worth getting used to. What is your suspicion of bitmap/ what caused the suspicion?

Why are people not using their votes? You would think we were in LyLo or MyLo.

VOTE: ForwhomtheJellyRolls

The very next post you unvote, without stating why, and move on to your next wagon. No where in the middle to you try to get me lynched, other than with your vote.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: numberQ

Vote is largely because of what just happened in 526. (also sorry for being away everyone, weekends are tough for me)

For all of you not voting anyone, consider this, one of the best ways to get reactions out of people is to use your vote and create wagons. Discussion is all well and good, but by itself with nothing else going on you are very rarely going to find scum just because of it.

While writing this post, I realized you never explained your vote for Jelly, but there it is again, Unvote and off to another wagon.

[Diego1487]

Haha, I'm touched BRantz. You know, tin-foil hats aren't for everyone...they itch.

Why does it matter how far apart the vote and unvote was? You literally added nothing to conversation in between(anti-town) and unless someone would have asked, you would never have explained either votes. You throw a vote out, you give it a couple of days to see if it comes to anything, and then you move on. That is my case against you, and I'm not sure where there is anything illogical about it.

Pushing a wagon is where you actively try to get others to vote for that person. You know, you get up and "push" it forward. Your play during this game is either start or jump on a wagon and "sit." When that wagon is on a hill, your weight will get it moving, but in no way is that pushing.

[Diego1487]

I don't understand Drixx, are you saying you're less confident, or more, in lynching BRantz?