Newbie 1596: Exotic Birds (Game Over)

[singersigner]

sorry for nitpicking.

So, did everyone get the role they wanted?

You're role-fishing and you should stop.

It's only role-fishing if he followed up with "and what role did you want?"

Also, hi! I was looking through my past newbie games, and I didn't realize how many we've actually played together. I feel like the last one we were in, I told everyone I didn't remember anything about you...which was true...and now I feel bad since I feel like I should've... -_-

[singersigner]

vote: Mofonugen

Preview Edit:
I think you replaced into like two others or something? You replaced into Nobody Special's game, but that might be the only one. Not really that important.

As far as saad goes, I like my vote where it is right now.

[singersigner]

From your friendly IC, a few things that might help you in your time here:

Read this, this, and/or this. They will help explain things that I might over look or not think I need to explain. If you have any questions about navigating the main page of the wiki, or anything else that happens in-game, I’d be more than happy to answer them.

Claiming:

Do not claim, except in the cases of L-1 or LyLo (if you don't know what these terms mean, where are you going to find them? If you answered "the wiki", you win. What you win is irrelevant). Claiming only serves two purposes: it gives scum more information than they need to have, and it distracts town.

Please note:

"Town" is an alignment. By being town-aligned, you can have one of a few roles: Cop, Doctor, Jailkeeper, Bullet Proof, or Civilian (also known as Vanilla Townie - VT - or townie). Saying that you are townie, VT, or civilian means that you are claiming a role, even if not a power role. You don't want to do this, as it can narrow the field on potential legitimate power roles, thus making it easier for the scum to pick them off.

Voting:

You should do it. Do not be afraid to vote. Voting can and does create discussion. Even if you think you don't have enough evidence for a vote, feel free to lay out what you do have. More discussion helps town. Less discussion hurts town. If you still don't think you have enough for a vote, lay out your evidence and add a FoS - finger of suspicion, meaning you find the person suspicious but aren't ready to vote.

Please note:

DO NOT BE AFRAID TO DIE. Remember, you win if your alignment wins,

NOT

if you survive until the end. Yes, it sucks to get killed, but the goal is to win, not to survive.

Posting:

You should do it. You should always do your best to post your thoughts as often as possible because posting generates discussion.

My suggestion:

Go for posting at least once a day, if not more. Sometimes games vary in discussion levels, but the easiest way to catch scum is by getting them to talk, and the easiest way to catch those who don’t talk is by posting. The scum are not going to sit around with signs over their heads asking to be caught. You have to ask the hard questions and get them out into the open and make them mess up or say things they shouldn't. And I don't mean ask questions like, "How are you doing today?" Ask people about their motivations for doing things, or why they said things the way they did. Mafia is a game of details, and sometimes you have to be nitpicky.

Wall posts:

Theoretically this helps the town because you’re getting your ideas out there for the town to see, read, and ultimately assess and analyze their own reads from; however, the more that’s written, the less people want to read, and the more that gets lost in translation.

My suggestion:

Preview your posts to make sure only what needs to be said is said. Also, separate ideas by paragraphs, with a couple sentences each. This allows longer posts to be read with ease, and will more likely help others see all the information you/d like to say as opposed to potentially glossing over something that could be really important. Note how I’m formatting this post, though a little paragraphy as it is (also note that I don’t expect everyone to all of a sudden post this way ).

[singersigner]

VOTE: Saad

As soon as a single vote fell he defended himself. A sign of a noob, yes, but a sign of a scummy noob.
That being said, I would really hate to meta down a newbie game like that. So let's hope I'm wrong.

Meta down a newbie game? What does that mean?

What makes it more scummy, than noob?

[singersigner]

saad's reason to vote looked a little too fabricated to me. Definitely on the scum-side of null for me. But I am considering the fact that he's new and that the first random vote fell on him, which could have scared him a little, so I'm very curious to read more from him. So my vote stays for now.

BBT wants to get out of RVS, that looks very townie to me.

Skold isn't in a rush to get out of RVS, and at this stage this doesn't really alarm me. Not much more content to work with. Still null.

About plotinus: let me say right now we just finished a game together (I'm not a big believer in meta myself but if anyone is curious, here it is: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=61104)
@lotinus: I don't really understand what you mean with town voting block. Didn't want to ask before you got an answer, but that is still not making it too clear to me. And I also can't find it at the wiki.

Everyone else still reads null to me, so I hope they start posting (more) soon.

This is town.

[singersigner]

I'm at work so can we please pay more attention to wagons and not vote yet??

[singersigner]

Yeah that was pretty lame. A 7-hour day, 90% of it while I was at work. I'll definitely give my thoughts when I get off. I think my stated townread of the day still stands.

[singersigner]

So I decided to get drunk last night instead of playing this game. I trusted you guys wouldn't make the same mistake.

I'm currently reading up so if I don't give thoughts within the hour...I guess there's not really a threat in there, is there. >_>

[singersigner]

@Plotinus...if you think I might be next to go because I'm "the best scumhunter" (I assume that fallacy is due to my IC status??) then why do you think BBT was night-killed before me, since by your logic, I should've been first regardless.

With regards to your question in Post186: voting is absolutely good for pressure, and BBT said it exactly right when he proclaimed that you should give notice when you put someone at L-1, and also when you intend to hammer. We should be held accountable for our votes, when we do it, and if we can afford to without risking someone doing exactly what you did D1. Only vote if you're confident you can leave the day satisfied with their lynch. Pressure votes will come naturally and shouldn't necessarily be projected because that would defeat the purpose of pressure and gauging the reactions you're looking to analyze. They should also be "self-monitored" because if you're only voting for pressure, you should be willing to take it off the minute you're satisfied with what the pressure achieved if it's anything but a scumread.

Actually, I don't believe him at all. He claimed villager. It clearly states in the setup and the sample role PM's that the role is called Vanilla Townie.

I'm inclined to agree with this.

Also, just as a side note; this level of activity in a newbie is fantastic.

Hopefully it keeps up.

IT KEPT UP TOO WELL.

[singersigner]

Yeah please don't sheep me for the sake of sheeping. I will offer what I can, but I'm certainly not infallible, and in fact have lost a lot of newbie games lately (minus the most recent one I was scum in).

That being said, I quoted BBT because I, also, "am inclined to agree" with that statement.

So. I basically have two theories right now:
1. Newbie scum tend to be fairly obvious when put under suspicion. I know people don't really agree with NKA (night kill analysis) that often, but there wasn't a whole lot of time to process much that went on D1, so they didn't have much to work with. I actually found BBT suspicious for the way he took control of the town because it resembled my last game with him where he was my scum buddy, but then he flipped town and obviously that went away. In that way, I want to lynch saad.

2. ICs often get NKed first. I find that I either get NKed first or make it to endgame in newbie games (this is all as town because I've only ever ICed as scum once). Granted, I didn't contribute much because of work and how long the day was, but the last time I had few contributions due to replacing in late, I was NKed anyway because scum wanted to get rid of someone who couldn't be used for NKA due to lack of information. Anyway! My other theory was that when not actively being scumread, maybe I was kept alive do to a townread I'd state that was wrong. In that way, I'd alternatively lynch Wanderer.

I think my second theory is much more shallow than the first, so unless I convince myself I'm wrong about my town read, I'm not going there yet.

[singersigner]

Wow, I'm dumb...I read the OP to confirm who the SEs were, and was like "when did Flying Around replace into this game?" >_>

ALSO. I changed my mind after reading Skold's ISO. It's pretty terrible! Out of 9 posts, he makes a couple of jokes and then ultimately shows up to throw out a random theory to land on something he hasn't even bothered looking into himself yet. Regardless of how long this game has actually been open (about two and a half real life days' worth of posting), he still hasn't bothered being actively engaged or providing anything substantial to the game. Reads a lot like flying under the radar.

vote: Skold

Preview Edit:
I've only been scum once (in my last game) as an IC. I also don't really feel comfortable answering that question because I feel like it's spoon feeding scum the right way to play. I think that even if you're not scum, the scum team could inadvertently be coached by my answer and therefore potentially not be caught based on an ideal play.

You're right that BBT was influential. I'm not exactly sure what you're asking me to explain to you...

[singersigner]

Spoiler: quoting a big post

@Saad Townlean is weaker than townread. I don't have a list of towntells memorised and most of them can be faked anyway. I just have some early game positive feelings towards Argos for now.

@singer: Thanks for the explanation. I think I will avoid pressure votes until I have some idea of what I'm trying to accomplish with them, then.

About the "best scumhunter" thing: BBT was very enthusiastically scumhunting on Day 1. You weren't because you were at work and the day was cut short. However, as IC, and as a person with a green name, as someone who has been here for 4.5 years, we can guess that you know something about this game, that you have learned something about how to read people, that you know when to trust your feelings and when not to, that you've seen newbie scum in many different games and you have some idea of what to look for. Of course this is all conjecture because we haven't seen it in action, but it's an educated guess. As IC, your advice is more likely to help us pull off a town victory.

I'm not saying we should all sheep you because we do need to learn to think for ourselves (or I need to learn anyway), but I do think that if I were scum and if I didn't have any leads on powerroles, if nobody was mod confirmed town, and there was nobody I wanted to policy lynch for being annoying, then I would go after the best scumhunters, the IC, and leave alive whoever looked the most confused. I've given it some thought (especially the policy lynch part), but I keep drawing town-aligned roles so I can't actually test my thoughts.

So that's why I think both that you are more likely than the rest of us to be night killed and why I think you weren't killed night 1.

Plotinus has several posts like these that are very eager-sounding and transparent. Scum don't like giving away information that could condemn them, so they're not as willing to be as forthcoming with information. I know this isn't always the case, since in one of my more recent Newbie games, I was fooled by someone who posted a lot, but I realized in retrospect he was trying to cover up his potential mistakes by talking in circles. I don't feel this is the case for Plotinus.

PEdit (yes in front) wow this post turned out big. It's my stance right now and would like everybody to respond (agree/disagree+reason)

Spoiler:

Hey BBT. Been a very short while

short while is an oxymoron and an oxymoron is a contradiction between two words (the word oxymoron in itself is an oxymoron; with oxy meaning dull in latin and moron meaning sharp). only the scum contradict because THEY are the ones lying.

VOTE: Skold

Other way around, and greek, not latin

reason still stands, blame my source.

This thing is making me think saad and Skold aren't scumbuddies. saad seems very newb to me and I don't think he'd bus as scum.
Maybe saad and plotinus are scumbuddies. saad was overly defensive with my random vote, and also when plotinus was voted.

I would be inclined to agree if it wasn't an RVS vote or he gave any seriously reasoning for voting for skold. I think it means nothing, and if anything, if either one of them flips scum, I'd be more suspicious of the other

specifically

because of this RVS vote. As newer players, your attention is drawn to familiarity, and scum buddies are familiar.

This sounds coach-y

I'm glad you didn't claim a powerrole. Way too early in the game for that.

Agreed.

And the only interaction they have is first when plotinus corrects saad with the oxymoron stuff, and later when she suggests to saad to replace into games. I think that's odd because saad was at L-1 at some point and to me it feels Plotinus was avoiding that bandwagon, and very happy to join on mofo. Her explanation on finding BBT suspicious to joining the bw to disliking his tactic after BBT flips town seems a little convenient to me.

Good point.

Spoiler: connection between plotinus and saad

Defending saad:

Actually, I don't believe him at all. He claimed villager. It clearly states in the setup and the sample role PM's that the role is called Vanilla Townie.

I'm inclined to agree with this.

Not a plays-the-game-on-some-other-site-too slip?

He may well do.

I find it more likely that he would use the terminology given in his role PM though.

fair enough.

re:94 I think it can be a good tactic for scumbuddies to fight each other early on and then make up. that logic would make more sense of saad was also scumreading BBT though, especially since he's doing OMGUS for everyone else.

To me this looks like Plotinus disagrees with BBT but is letting it slide. Plotinus is entertaining the idea of BBT and saad as scumbuddies but seems to come to the conclusion that saad sn't bussing BBT so that theory makes little sense. (That's my interpretation of her words)

Plotinus basically saying she doesn't suspect saad right now but might later:

It will depend on how they behave today. I think it can be hard to distinguish between newbie and scummy -- to use examples from our last game, ducks who seemed (to me) scum but was newbie and mainez who seemed newbie but was scum, but it's worth keeping an eye on them.

people only wanna play as town, if i replace i'd likely get a scum slot from a guy who lurked because he flipped scum.

So what I'm reading from this is that Saad doesn't want to be mafia, he wants to be town, and that if he were mafia he would lurk until he was replaced. I disagree with his premise about what other people want to play, but do think that he believes it. Him not lurking is not evidence either way (because he could have been lying), but if he does start lurking after this I'll be more suspicious of him.

I think if we're dealing with two newbie scum, then it's 2 of [skold, saad, argos] (mostly by process of elimination on "newbie" and "scum"). We've only seen 9 posts from Skold so far, and only a few of substance. We've seen even less of Argos (just 2 posts). It is entirely possible they were sleeping or at work like singer during the entire 7 hour day, so complete null read on them.

House said something last game -- even though he was scum I think he was telling the truth about this part -- about a good way to distinguish IC town from IC scum, so I think we can fairly confidently wait and see what will happen with singer and how she plays this week. If singer is town then I do think we're dealing with 2 newbie scum. If singer is not town it is entirely too early to be guessing who her buddy is but probably one of the candidates for newbie scum.

Anyway, I'd trust your instincts about who to watch.

who even is our remaining SE? *checks* oh, Skold. But he's only been on the site for a couple months so he might still feel like a newer player? I looked over his completed games very briefly and I didn't find a completed scum game, so if he is scum then i'll count him in the newbie category.

This is actually a really good eye. I feel better now that I don't think it's my second theory of you keeping me around because I initially townread you.

Additionally, Plotinus' 226 looks like he could be deferring to his scum buddy for advice, not onlly with how to hedge his own suspicion, but potentially to see if there's a way to deflect suspicion onto skold. I'm withholding this read a little bit because I would like to see skold more active and I'm worried that now I'm reading into everything with confirmation bias (

if you already have it in your head that something is true, then everything else is going to serve to confirm that feeling

).

Disagree. I was spectating his last game, which is ongoing so I can't talk about it, but it gave me some pre-game impressions of him, and my early interactions with him, including the "coaching" were based on those impressions. I have impressions of you too from last game. As the game progresses, I'm forming impressions based on this game, which are more valuable than any pre-game impressions.

Careful. Even this is too much. I'll explain more why after the game or you can take this to the mod to find out why now.

Confirming I agree with this. -C

[singersigner]

RIGHT.

I think I remember not taking that seriously, to be honest. Did he address why his vote was serious, yet?

[singersigner]

@saad...what experience do you have with Skold to know how old he is?

Also, just as a reminder, because we lost two people (one with the lynch and one with the night kill), we now only have seven people alive, so it takes four to lynch. Skold would be considered at L-2 right now.

unvote
vote: saad

I'd rather a replacement come in now since it's unfair for the rest of us to work with an indeterminate V/LA deadline. Regardless of when he comes back, we won't know when to expect it or what kind of activity level should/could/would be normal otherwise, so the slot is entirely void in this game. Even with the mod is keeping an eye out, I really don't like unknown timelines.

[singersigner]

I think it would be different if Skold weren't on a claimed V/LA. I would assume that if he was replacing out due to being scum, he wouldn't be waffling about it.

Why do you think being a native English speaker would affect how he's posted so far? Could you site some example of what you'd consider "odd" that you'd attribute to a second language barrier?

[singersigner]

Yeah, punctuation and grammar aren't really alignment indicative at all. I think you're also loosely throwing around the word "scumtell"--since there's a difference between doing something that's scummy, which can be done as either alignment and you have to interpret/determine which it is, or something that is really only done by scum, which there are very few things that applies to.

For example: saying "villager" instead of vanilla townie could be interpreted as a scumtell simply because the likelihood that town would say something other than what's in their role PM is very slim...versus the construction of his posts that's something you're interpreting as scummy, because sometimes townies aren't always able to eloquently articulate their points in a way that portrays them as town. And then sometimes they're just scum! But you have to weigh what means more to you and how you really feel about it.

Also, with regards to linking to posts:
1. [ url = http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6785829 ] ENTER WORDS HERE THEY CAN BE ANYTHING [ / url ]
turns into
This: ENTER WORDS HERE THEY CAN BE ANYTHING

2. [ post ] 173 [ / post]
turns into
This: 173

You can also see what kind of coding someone is using by quoting their post and looking at it before you preview.

[singersigner]

[singersigner]

@saad...what experience do you have with Skold to know how old he is?

Would still like a response to this.

ALSO, that damn derphammer onto mofo, I just can't ignore that even it it's a mistake

VOTE: plotinus

If it was a mistake, what makes you think it was one coming from scum?

Here's what I think about it: I had a game last year where this exact same thing happened, and the offending party was town, so I can't really assume it was scum. Scum I think are more careful to not make those kinds of mistakes, especially on D1. The entire exchange of it being a mistake, and even Mofo not even realizing he was at L-1 seemed genuine.

BBT seemed to pick up on that though, don't really understand why he went for mofo instead...

This is exactly why I thought BBT could've been scum. >_>

somewhat. I'm not actually sure whether wanting to get out of rvs soon is protown or not. I think that being eager to get onto scumhunting and

then following through on that

is protown. I'd be interested in hearing what singer thinks about that in general, but saad being wrong about mafia theory is a newbietell not a scumtell.

But since he was trying to deflect criticism off of himself and onto you, that fits in with an overall pattern of behaviour of trying to make other people look scummy and then checking for reactions.

He did it to you in that post, and to mofo in 51, and wyvern in 76, and to BBT, and me at the start of this day phase which I thought was for the obvious but it turned out not to be, and now singer. He did RVS with skold but otherwise left him and argos alone (except to townread him for saying saad might not be a native speaker).

I'd like to hear from Skold or his replacement, but Argos has also been consistently inclined to give saad the benefit of the doubt, though he also is describing saad as seeming scummy.

preview-edit: you're probably right about 40 but i need to get some food so i'm going to leave what i wrote and think some more. I also wish BBT were still here.

The bolded are statements that seem like genuine scumhunting in that they're looking for the kinds of patterns and motivations that scum would be using right now. I particularly like the first assertion of deflection, since that's a pretty common defense mechanism for scum. The second bolded part I'm actually glad he brought to my attention since I don't remember anything particularly substantial from Argos.

I do really like the line of dialogue between Plotinus and Wanderer. They're both easy to admit where they could be wrong and understand each other's arguments to narrow down the scum pool. I wouldn't expect that if either one of them are scum, with the rare exception that they're defending a partner, but with saad being one of my stronger scumreads, I don't feel that's the case.

[singersigner]

@Wyvernite...
1. It certainly was anti-town, but anti-town =/= scum. The anecdotal evidence was to prove that of all the games I've played on site, the only other instance I can ever think of someone making that kind of mistake came from town. Not to say that it can't ever happen as scum, but you're hypothesizing something you think scum assume they can get away with. Note, Plotinus was under a lot of fire for his mistake. What makes you think that's something scum want to subject themselves to? And I'm not soft-defending Plot. I've clearly stated I think he's town by now. This is me actually defending him, which is something you can, and should, do with town reads.

2. It may or may not be useful to speculate on the alignment of the flipped town. I find it useful to the extent that there was a reason he died and we've already commented on such. It doesn't

prove

I wasn't the one who killed him, since you could just claim I'm lying. I was just offering why it wouldn't have been in my benefit to. This would've been more supported had I come back before the hammer to comment on such.

[singersigner]

SAAD THERE IS AN INTENT TO HAMMER ON YOU EITHER CLAIM OR POST YOUR CASE ON ME OR BOTH OR SOMETHING PLEASE AND THANK YOU.

[singersigner]

@Skold...hopefully you'll be able to catch up soon. I'd like anyone not already voting saad to wait on a hammer until you do so.

@Plotinus...RVS is a conversation starter. More experienced players have racked up a list of personal ticks they've noticed people do more often as scum. Sure, it's not 100% accurate, but with that margin of error comes the reactions from both those you're voting and those who react to those votes. It all intertwines and you just have to let it happen organically, in my opinion. People who force reactions are more likely to get the inaccurate ones. In my case, I was trying to mimic someone's tell of the last person to confirm in a newbie game is likely scum. In this case it was wrong, and a power role...which...I guess could have the same reasoning (being that it's a role the player isn't familiar with and doesn't know how to play so they're more nervous to respond or post). Anyway, I don't really know what BBT picked up about saad but if it was actually seriously and wasn't just to gauge reactions, then he'll likely tell us after the game.

@Wanderer...that's an interesting observation. Where did you get that theory? (both the lynching town, and the bussing one)

[singersigner]

(hint: it's probably someone MIA or new enough to not know any better)

[singersigner]

I've given the reads I have. Plotinus and you town, saad scum + maybe MIA skold scum? Everyone else has yet to do anything super identifying that gives me a confident read on them. If you're looking for more, you're gunna have to look elsewhere.

@saad...you'll have to ask the mod for an official replacement or I'll take this as an "AtE" (appeal to emotion) with regards to your replacing out since it isn't official, yet. Please don't leave?

[singersigner]

Ahhh...I don't really know, I always get really paranoid when it looks like someone is buttering me up and trying to get on my good side. Like they just want me to like them. Plotinus gives the appearance of eager town, but takes my word for granted without really questioning it, and I'm starting to wonder if that's because I haven't said anything that goes against his game plan, yet...

[singersigner]

Um ok

unvote

[singersigner]

First of all,

vote: Reubus Swagrid

Second of all, I'm at work posting on a cracked phone so I'll be home in a couple of hours to address your questions. I just want my vote to marinate with you a bit.

[singersigner]

Alright, well I see he's replaced out before I could really comment on anything, but I'll address some things anyway because I believe this slot cemented my scumread of saad based on the following:

@singersigner
Can you explain your actions during D1 and how it has helped your win condition? Do you agree with my statement about scum being on the D1 wagon? If so, who on that wagon is most likely scum?

This looks like a leading/trick question. I made five posts the entire day, which lasted less than 24 hours (don't know where seven hours cam from either >_>), and was at work for half of it, so implying that I had anything to account for sounds like no matter what I said, it was going to be wrong. To actually answer the question, though...I still only had five posts in 13 hours! I did exactly what I would've done even if the day lasted longer: offer my initial IC post, give a read when I had one, play devil's advocate to ascertain which alignment motivated which actions. As far as my win condition goes, this is the leading part of the question because it sets me up for WIFOM***, which isn't worth delving into because you can only assume I would answer as town from either alignment.

Ok, I see he also asked this of someone else, so it wasn't just the IC; however, a better question would be how has it helped the

town's

win condition? That would make me feel like he's genuinely trying to find who's on his team (which hypothetically would town), as opposed to setting people up by implying it could be from either wincon.

Well obviously that was one of the largest fuckups I will probably ever have on MS but

is it really alignment indicative

?

It almost wants to make me curl up into a ball and cry and request a replacement but hey, I gotta learn don't I?

Already shouts defensiveness over his mistake. He commented on Plotinus' hammer in the same way so it's not as smoking gun as I originally thought, but I've always found excusing your predecessor's mistakes (305) as scummy because you're trying to lessen the impact will have on your slot.

/undo 306 onwards god that's embarrassing. I thought I could handle another game but I could hardly enter right.
I'll just go to bed now....

Don't bus me while I'm asleep,

that would be just silly

I don't actually know if this is a joke or not. Argos jumped to that conclusion, but it could also be considered a slip if he meant to say "lynch." To give him the benefit of the doubt and call it a joke, it still seems out of place because it gives a sense of nervousness or something that even if joked about, points to something they're worried about.

Then the replace out makes it look like he just got caught and doesn't feel like he can recover. I'm 100% ok with this, but agree that we can give the replacement time to catch-up and give input to help us in the long run.

[singersigner]

unvote

I don't really want to confirmation bias BBT's suspicion, since he's not infallible. I just don't want to be a sucker for "lolmistakes" or AtE... I need to marinate on this again. Let DCL catch up and hopefully hear more from the less vocal group, and try to reset what's happening.

[singersigner]

Is saad a native English speaker? That could explain at least some of the oddness of his posts.

Singersigner's recent burst of activity puts them on the right side of 'town' for me right now

, either that or very good scum. I think I read in one of the threads I was lurking in before I joined that scum are more likely to switch out, so if Skold ends up not coming back that could be a bit troublesome, though I don't know whether his relative experience shifts those numbers at all. Don't want to rush to judgement based on statistics, but I'm eager to hear what he or his replacement have to say.

Singer's a null read

for me right now. I'd love someone with more time on their hands to try and gauge their meta to see if this is generally the amount of detail they post.

What happened between these two posts? You didn't comment on anything I've said or done since then, yet your read changed?

Also, I'm not really a fan of soliciting others to do the work for you, but I'll link you to my most recent/only scum game and my most recent town games (I only left one out because I replaced in, only made two posts and died N1, so...).

I'm not as forthcoming with my reads unless I'm fairly confident in them, since I like to have all the facts, first. To say that I should have reads on certain people because I'm the IC is an appeal to authority fallacy that you should reconsider.

[singersigner]

Right now, a lot of how I feel about certain slots hinges on DCL providing substance (and soon), and then a consequential flip. Town was set way back by having virtually nothing to analyze from the wagon on town D1, so the fact that DCL wants to comment particularly on that and the hammer has me intrigued. A fresh set of eyes will help, even if they're from scum.

[singersigner]

Once again, I have no doubt that I'm the lynch today. But I want to at least be able to hash out some reads first.

No, not so that town has some of those much-beloved "interactions" from me when I flip, or to try and prove I'm town in order to stop my lynch - I'm not that optimistic (though I will say the idea of me willingly providing you all with further interactions from my slot if I were scum, just so you could lynch me without regret and use them to find my partner, is also laughable)

.

No, I am and have been asking for people to unvote someone at L-1, and then asking for people to unvote me upon learning

I

was the player at L-1, so that I could have the opportunity to catch up without being cut off while in the middle of trying to figure the game and my reads out. I absolutely

hate

when bullshit like that happens.

And earlier this was just because of that, just because I wanted to catch up and put a stop to the L-1 lynch wagon if I had a townread on its victim. But now, the primary draw to me is that at least once I'm dead and gone, I'll have the chance to point and laugh and yell "I told you so!" from beyond the grave should I be right.

So...what do you want to be able to do from catching up? Why even offer to replace in if you just want bragging rights? Are you planning on putting cases together so we can actually use that if/when you flip

town

? Because it's not just "oh he's scum WHO DID HE REACT WITH" it's also "oh he was town LET'S LOOK AT HIS TOWN-MINDSET"...does that not matter to you? You've read one page and already feel the need to vote. >_>

My gods. This game has far too much over reaction for people who aren't even close to lynch. Mate you're slot already claimed but even so, you're at L-3. I feel still feel this slot is scum. This is partially because of Swagrid but I feel that everyone who has been giving this slot has gone way off the mark on most things. Claiming at L-3 was weird and over-defensive. I'd like to see your thoughts on Argos and SingerSinger though.

So...what Wanderer said. When exactly are you planning on playing this game? Not even a vote? You want thoughts on me and Argos while you have yet to provide any of your own?

[singersigner]

vote: Skold

Something feels really off about him and his defensiveness over his trite comments in the beginning of the game. Even when they're brought up now, that's about all he can muster up other than some reads he can't explain. I'm a sucker for gut reads myself, but I think that his inability to explain even a little bit of what makes them gut ("how genuine they sound" "how much they're contributing" "etc") is more likely from someone who doesn't know how to make up reads when they already know the alignments.

[singersigner]

You're right, I honesty don't know how to react to your catchup right now but it's conflicting because while I really want to believe you're just scum playing me I feel like Skold's reactions are far scummier than anyone in your slot has been. But you're also right, if it were lylo ID seriously re inside how scummy your actually are right now. I just think I'm a sucker for AtE and think you're fenuinely trying to give whatever you can. The fact that you're staying true to your belief that nothing you say is worth while is ok maybe town? I just disagree with that because I was mostly trying to get you to contribute because it felt like you had already resigned to your lynch and maybe just maybe someone who be able to read into who was still convinced of your scummies and who cares about getting he most information if maybe you were actually town so I think maybe your should start taking a different approach to mafia or replacing in because in you are in fact town then your slot ha been a serious disappointment and I don't really know how to react icy emotion over facts because he facts are against your slot and I hate that I'm being a sucker form right now and I'll be the first to admit that if we don't flip scum other than you today that I'll feel played that's all

[singersigner]

Oh shit that wall wa huge

[singersigner]

Ok I may be drunk yay bregaloo

[singersigner]

I highly disagree!

[singersigner]

Yeah sorry I'm here I just drank more than I thought this weekend so I'll catch up again after work.

[singersigner]

Why wait when we have serious things to discuss? RVS is an ice-breaker, we have broken the ice and I have found scum.

Because he decided to make a jovial post about roles/allignment? This seems unnessasarily inflammatory. It will spark discussion, but it won't exactly be produtive. We're on page two, which is only about 1 page of content, since moderator's posts take up a fair amount of page one. I see nothing scummy or really wrong with keeping RVS going a little bit longer. I'd tone your posts down. It isn't going to accomplish anything productive. We'll just have lots of posts, similar to yours, without any content.

Let the town talk for a bit, and then we can see who's inactive, and who really lacks content. Both of which are scum behavior. If we try to start super serious reads and discussion this early, we have nothing to go off of.

If you insist to start going for reads this early, your own posts seem to not be that well thought out, as you have 3 posts over the course of 30 minutes, none of which are more than 5 lines, most of which is fluff. I'm not sure if you're scum, or town just acting like an ass to draw out a bandwagon on yourself. Time will tell I guess.

I actually had to ISO Wyvernite to remember literally anything he's said this game, and I found this. Do you think you've been active enough/contributing enough content at this point in time to not have it considered, as you say, "scummy behavior"?

[singersigner]

I still think DCL is the way to go because there will be too much confusion in LyLo if she's kept alive, we already have a VT claim so we're not pushing to test a PR, and there are too many inconsistencies with the slot that I'm uncomfortable with: saad's claim, then DCL's comment about the jailkeeper...neither of which are damning in it of themselves, but combined two on the same slot leaves too much margin of error.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wyvernite's interaction with the slot could be considered soft distancing, but that's too much speculation before a flip.

I ISO's Argos and I think he's town. I originally thought his "native speaker" excuse could've been read as making excuses for a scum buddy, but reading his posts in order and all together make me feel like he's genuinely trying to not get caught up in bias. He wants to critically think about why someone is scummy, instead of just finding an excuse to do so. Particularly the point where he notices Plotinus' comment about seeing saad squirm, but not ever actually having the opportunity to, points to the kind of inconsistencies I'd expect someone genuinely scumhunting to be looking for/find. I suppose scum would also be using anything they can to paint someone as scummy, but I'm not getting that from Argos.

I'm not as sold on scumSkold anymore.

[singersigner]

Oh right, I forgot about that post. I found you pretty town for it because of the effort alone, but I honestly didn't read it that thoroughly at that point. Now that I ISO'd him myself, I noticed the comment about finding inactivity/low content to be scummy, and many of his posts seem to be IoA (information over analysis). For not being the IC, that reads as the appearance of trying to provide something without actually having much to provide.

Granted, I don't really know that scum would be so obvious as to say "this is something to watch out for!" and then proceed to do it. Hypocrisy isn't a scum tell.

[singersigner]

Hypocrisy isn't a scum tell.

Oh, I thought it might be one, but I suppose that would make the game too easy.

Have you never found something scummy and then done it yourself? Like...say someone's scum for posting around the site instead of the game, but then you find yourself doing it because it's easier to respond to one thread than try to thinking critically in another?

That was probably a terrible example, but I'm having a hard time coming up with something without having anything in particular to point out.

Also, it's not the hypocrisy that's scummy, it's the way someone manipulates it. So like, if it looks like they're furthering their own agenda with their inconsistencies, as opposed to actually trying to find the differences to support their argument. Again, I wish I had a better example off the top of my head, but if you don't understand I can try to clarify it further.

[singersigner]

OH OK. So like, Wyvernite in 244 has an opportunity to comment on both Argos and Skold who have very few posts with questionable content (not questionable as in bad, but questionable as in there's not much), but didn't, so I'm curious as to how he came into the game with a bold statement such as "this is scummy but let's wait and see what happens" and then proceeds not to pay any attention to that, which looks like he was just posting that to post it (IoA) because it's the standard thing to find scummy. If he'd actually commented on their inactivity, however, it would've shown that he took it, assessed it, and then came up with those reads independently of his prior statement, which would make his own inactivity less...damning? based on how he views it as a whole.

[singersigner]

Is anyone outwardly

opposed

to a CDL lynch today?

This is important.

[singersigner]

Fffff. I'm still a sucker for AtE. I feel as though at a certain point, scum can't fake it, I just really don't want to back down and let it be an unfortunate mislynch-bait in lylo.

I know this sounds pretty shitty considering he's been one my biggest townreads this whole game, but I'm actually fine with lynching Plotinus??? I don't really know that I was townreading him for the right reasons, since most of it was the fact that he's been townreading/leaning me, and the amount of effort he's been putting in...which isn't alignment indicative at all. I think it could be likely either way, and I'm starting to go back to my original statement that I think spammy wall-posting is inherently scummy because it lends to hiding mistakes (that and town tend to be lazier than scum and won't find/look for them).

I'm back to thinking that if Plotinus was putting in this much effort to read and analyze everyone with town motivation, then he would've taken an equal amount of effort to make sure he wasn't hammering 1. without stating intent to hammer, and 2. without a claim, both of which BBT made abundantly clear were necessary before hammering.

[singersigner]

I feel like it might be a really good bus/distancing tactic which is why I'm paranoid about getting played by DCL.

[singersigner]

...And I just got myself worked up and wasted probably close to an hour of my time. Even though I promised myself I wouldn't... ffffffffffffffffffuck.

This game is infuriating.

No, I'm not upset that I'm being lynched, because I want out. But the way town has been going about this game both day 1 and now on day 2 is just so

wrong

, and the boatload of different reasons is infuriating.

Ever thought about how if you guys were actually so sure of me being scum like you love saying, you'd be able to stick to a few reasons instead of dumping anything you can think of and twisting it any way you need to justify my mislynch to yourselves?

Yeah, well. I'm out. And I promised not to self-hammer, so I won't. Just make sure you give me your sentences/reasons when you lock up.

What about the way we're going about this is so wrong? I know I'm prone to skimming more than I should, but I have yet to see you provide literally anything that would convince us otherwise. You read a handfull of pages and made your decisions based off of the first two pages? How is that better/right when you can't seem to properly articulate a convincing case.

That being said, I don't think you're scum because of that statement, but it doesn't make you any more town than you'd like us to think. Wining about how we're so wrong isn't exactly the best way to help us change our minds.

[singersigner]

I'm fucking tired of losing as town. GG all.

[singersigner]

You guys did a really good job at keeping the discussion open. Obviously I'm not perfect because I got sucked into the wrong reads at one point, but I think the only piece of advice I would give is something that's really common for people to overlook. Lurkers. It became really obvious that Argos and Skold were basically only popping in when they were of serious discussion or when someone addressed them personally. I know I do that too sometimes because I don't always have original content, so it's all about interpreting how and why, I guess.

Also, voting in lylo is just hard. You guys were really conscious of it, and then all of a sudden it seemed to go downhill really quickly. Lylo is one of the few days I will encourage literally as much discussion as possible, to get it all out on the table. Challenge people's ideas. Skold got a way with excusing a lot of his reads as "gut" which in lylo, should be the most pertinent time for someone town trying to win the game, to get it all out there on the table.

What confirmed it for me was when he was setting up the "common denominator" which always tends to come from scum. They just want the mislynch, so whatever will get anyone off their scum buddy or them they'll try to manipulate. Also, also, his not-so-subtle trying to get Argos to counterclaim Plot for the win, haha. Could've worked! But ended up not needing it anyway.

I don't know what the win rate for newbies is, but the only game I've won in the last year almost was a scum game, which is really hard to do as an IC, lol. I think newbies just generally look scummier, so it tends to be easier for mislynches to happen if you have the right mistakes or the right people to manipulate them.

Overall, I'm proud of how you guys tried to work together to parse out the end of the game, even if it didn't work out in our favor.

Scum team...there's not a whole lot I can say except good job at flying under the radar and choosing the right night kills? I feel bad for not really having much more praise to your play, but I think this is one of those instances where town imploded more than scum being above average. But at least this is a learning opportunity for bettering your next scum game when it doesn't come down to town's mistakes.

[singersigner]

@Plotinus...the running commentary in your head that just seemed to flow through your fingers out onto the keyboard was good in keeping your thoughts transparent, but there were moments where I was wondering exactly how much of that was a ruse to hide behind. I always encourage being as honest as possible, which you did to the extend that I could see the wheels running in your head. I felt like you were taking the time to look over every possibility, and then genuine with how you then discussed those options with us. Obviously voting was an issue, but again, I've seen town make those mistakes before. I think scum are more likely to be more thorough and NOT make those kind of mistakes because they don't want them to bite them in the butt later. Part of my initial suspicion of Skold was his comment about "why aren't we talking about the derphammer." It felt like he was discouraged scum who didn't get to make an obvious mislynch candidate happen. Hindsight is 20/20, though.

@Wanderer...I think you were the happy medium with Plotinus. You were able to be engaged and thoughtful, and transparent with your thoughts in a more succinct way. I'll have to go back and ISO you, but honestly, the two of you were the two reads I barely wavered on.

Preview Edit:
Agreed on all accounts with Cephir.

[singersigner]

@Plotinus...I don't think Lylo is the time for hidden messages, lol. Maybe if you had candidly stated, as you're so good at doing , what you meant, it would've given millar and Wanderer a better picture of who was obviously scum.