Newbie 1757 - Game Over

[shannon]

VOTE: Copper because last time we played together he was scum (and so was I, but ignore that bit )

[shannon]

Alllrighty, apologies if this stuff has already been hashed out, just catching up now.

Here is a question for you. When you were first confronted about your inconsistency all the way in post 13, why didn't you immediately say "I apologize. I was mixing up my trains of thought and retroactively adding reasoning after seeing your post 11", rather than insisting that "there was no change of tune"?

@Accountant - I think the explanation you're suggesting NN30 should have given, while great in theory, isn't how most newbies would act (or maybe most players at all?), whether scum or town. And more to the point, how would that explanation exculpate someone? Would they not then be jumped on for admitting that they 'retroactively added reasoning'? Would giving this explanation seem sincere to you? (It doesn't to me). ((Note: I'm not town reading NN30, I just want insight in to your reasoning here).

I wasn't requested to move off someone. I was questioned to why I was still on my RVS vote. We're out of RVS, he reminded me I had an RVS vote, I realised that I was still on my RVS vote, I moved off my RVS vote. Simple as that. Stop misrepresenting and twisting words. I do have a scumread on you, I'm applying more pressure to you to see if my scumread is justified, AKA whether your reaction comes to me as scummy or towny. And obviously I have done scummy things, that post is not one of them.

Ummm say what? You've done scummy things, but not the scummy thing you've been accused of? What sort of post is that?!

His post in 64 was the most substantive thing he's done so far.

I've seen it exactly once, so you know grain of salt, but the only time someone posts a summary 'here's what happened so far' they've turned out to be scum.

The reason the summary post is scummy is because analysis is hard to do as scum (the game is already solved for you) whereas summary is easy. No pretending to analyze the game state required - just state what people have done so far and viola!

Disagree - Analysis is easy to fake as scum, precisely because you already know who to target. I'm not convinced by this line of argument at all. Moreover, I've seen the summary done as town.

Just because I did something Town has no reason doing, doesn't mean I am guaranteed to be not Town. It could be just me playing the game the way I play it or that I simply made an error. This is a single scumtell and you are basing your read with high levels of confidence of off it.

I'll say this - if doing things that make no sense is your MO, it's terrible from a tactical perspective. Can you explain to me me why you would act irrationally ('do something Town has no reason doing') as town? From my POV, the best thing to do as town is to be town-read as widely as possible. It helps to form a town block, and it helps to narrow down the candidates for lynching.
It doesn't deny scum any info, since they know you're town, it just makes you more likely to be mislynched by town.

I can't see a reason for a townie to be deliberately scummy, unless they're in a situation where it's very, very important to protect a PR and getting mislynched is a way of doing that - but in D1 that's sooooo not the case.

I would not be surprised at all if you flip scum. Just going to check the vote count before I vote because I don't want to L-1 anyone while half the list has yet to post much.

[shannon]

UNVOTE:

FOS: X...X

[shannon]

Um and @Fruitsman do you plan on making a contribution at some point, or just pretending to be a fruit seller?

[shannon]

OK I do not understand the difference between saying someone is a liar, and saying that they lied.

[shannon]

I've never been so confident
in a lynch 5 Pages in, lets go boys

I don't want him to be at L-1 when we have like 4 people who haven't contributed. But with my vote and shannon's vote, he's absolutely getting lynched today.

Wait a minute..."put your vote where your read is" is weird from a person who was scared of 3 votes on page 1. Maybe you're trying to get my vote off you? Because you didn't say the same thing to shannon who heavily scumread nadro but didn't vote him like five posts ago.

Disagree, it's less weird to have L-1 now than it was on page 1.

We have time to wait out some of the lurkers, so let's do that. It's silly to lynch without getting all input. But yeah, I think XX is toast.

[shannon]

I'm just wondering whether the game will change when they start participating in it. It could be that one of them proves scummier than XX. I don't want to let potential scum get away with lurking, but it's tricky because lynching lurkers just because they're lurkers is also a poor strategy.

[shannon]

Hi replacements, thanks for playing <3

[shannon]

*sigh* Anyone else feel like the game is on hold a bit?

[shannon]

That's a very town string of posts from keyenpeydee. Absolute genuine stream of consciousness posting there

Agreed, if he's faking he's doing a great job. Town read on Keyen.

Alright so now that keyen has posted and managed to not look scummier than xx, after arc angel posts, and fails to look scummier than xx, we can vote. I'll see you tonight at the bonfire for xx >:D

I was with you until I read the next post by Fruitman, which I definitely found offputting. Can we talk about the ridiculousness of someone who has lurked all game now suddenly jumping up, agreeing with everything, and voting the person under pressure?

VOTE: XnadrojX

Alright. After Re-reading through the posts I'm gonna agree with the consensus.

I got marshmallows for the bonfire.

VOTE: Fruitman for ridiculously opportunistic sheeping and wagon selection

[shannon]

Just in case anyone cares:

Town - Accountant, Keyen

Who the fuck knows - Arc Angel (replaced in), Vija, Wyvern (going to re-read the last two)

Scum - Fruitman, XX, NN

[shannon]

Quicky ISO of Vija moves him up my list, not as strong of a town read as Accountant or Keyen but not in the lynch pool for me today, at least.

In the plus column I can see how his scum read on XX has developed, it seems logical and it progresses as XX's play deteriorates. On the minus side though I can't see whether he's town reading anyone in particular, or doing much scum hunting outside of that one read.

He's someone I'd like to take a closer look at tomorrow, because I think his is the sort of ISO that could speak to scum just doing a bit more than what the scummiest-looking townie is doing.

[shannon]

@Wyvern while you're around I'd like to get more of your reads please, outside of this one vote on XX.

In ISOing you I came across these two posts, which threw me a bit and look pretty opportunistic to me.

90% sure mafia is xx (as I will refer to him from now on) + 1 of the people who haven't spoken up yet, form a townblock right now and put the game on autopilot

Alright so now that keyen has posted and managed to not look scummier than xx, after arc angel posts, and fails to look scummier than xx, we can vote. I'll see you tonight at the bonfire for xx >:D

I'm referring to 'form a townblock right now' and 'fails to look scummier than xx, we can vote'. XX has had pages and pages to incriminate himself, I think it would be a mistake to lynch him based on one or two non-scummy-looking posts from replacements.

Also - why are you following me to fruitsman? I know you asked him to post something useful, but between doing that and voting him you indicated you were just waiting on the replacements to make not-obviously-scummy posts. Do you not think that Fruity putting your biggest scum read at L-1 is useful?

[shannon]

@Shannon in post 174 you vote me because I make a decision and instead of going through the redundant process of reposting everyone's quotes, you just vote me instead. No less your reasoning behind it is because it's "Opportunistic" and completely fail to go off of what was previously discussed as XX posting scum. You then follow up with a list of whos town, unkown, and scum in an attempt to solidify your accusations and give yourself a type of "authority."

@ Wyernite: You're just trying to rock the boat. Your posts have mostly been accusatory, less analytical than mine, and attempting to lynch someone ASAP, but fail to pull through and instead cast a vote on me because I'm not being "helpful," and its Fruitsman* but Fruitman works too.

The reason I'm voting you haven't given any reason for your read on XX, other than just going with the majority. What if the majority is wrong? (If my FOS on him counts me among the majority, and you're taking down my reasoning here, shouldn't that tell you not to take other people's opinions as correct?).

It *is* absolutely opportunistic for you to join the biggest wagon and put it to L-1, when
1) people are suspecting you and asking you to post more of substance, and you're refusing
2) we have so long to go in this day

Also I would like you to point out a post of yours that is more analytical than Wyvern's ISO.

[shannon]

Oh dear. If I weren't voting you already I'd vote you now for that piece of crap post. Play to help town or prepare to be lynched.

[shannon]

I'm actually hating wyvernite right now. All he's been doing is making very assertive statements. He doesn't seem to be engaging with other players and he isn't providing analysis, simply opportunism.

VOTE: Wyvernite with the caveat that I would still vote xnadrojx, and expect to do so soon.

I actually believe that nothing fruitsman has done so far is scummy. His play's been bad, but he seems to want to contribute, and lynching him would be a bad idea IMO.

On what grounds do you say he wants to contribute?

[shannon]

I agree with accountant that fruit's vote is based not on his actually reading the thread and deciding; but I think he's just town with no idea how the game is played going with consensus. His "i'm so random lol fruit" posts are stupid but certainly reflect a desire to stick out; not something that scum, especially scum as clueless as fruit would want to do.

I get the distinct impression that Fruits is an alt. Let's say you're a complete newbie to mafia, do you sign up with an account that has a fruit-seller schtick? So I think we need to look at him as a non-newbie who's mucking around.

[shannon]

It's very surprising to me that we've gotten off the XX train. What has he done to remove suspicion? Nothing. The conversation just moved past him.

Don't let him get away with that.

You'd like us to get back onto that, while also keeping the attention off yourself!

(Am I doing this right?)

Quite Opportunistic for you to throw shade on someone who is just as incriminating, you over-analytical scum!

Yes, I think you did it right in that first sentence, good job

[shannon]

Wait what I'm still on copper? oops lemme fix that real quick

UNVOTE: Copper

and yes I count that as stalking

PEdit: There was a cover up. You clearly stated "scum" in 10 followed by "newbie town" in post 12. There's nothing to clarify

This definitely reads as scummy. Especially the part where you didn't put your vote on me...

VOTE: xnadrojx

Of all the scummy things I did this is the one that asks you to lynch me? Me moving off my RVS vote after forgetting about you is scummy? What in that post suggests I had intention to vote you?

I just had a quicky look at XX's iso, and prior to this post where he refers to himself as doing 'all of the scummy things', I can't actually see anything scummy that he's done.

In 26 he makes a quick point about NN (case is too strong a word), and then builds on it in 35 , clarifies it in 43.

In 47 NN calls 43 scummy, especially that XX didn't put his vote on NN. And then XX responds with his 'all the scummy things' line. This is the bit where I think we've gone wrong. I dunno if I can explain this clearly but let's have a go.

If say, the team was NN and XX, and *someone else* called out XX for scumreading NN but not voting him, then that's legit. We've identified that someone is faking a read or maybe avoiding voting a partner.

But for NN himself to say that it's bad for XX not to vote him... I can't see why that makes XX scummy unless it's bussing, and NN has been too pushy on XX for it to be that. (Like I think at the moment, if those two are a team then NN should be easing off XX and letting the conversation go away from him). I think it's entirely plausible that XX just wanted to ask more questions before voting, and I don't think that's AI.

Given the tone of his 212 I think it's actually possible that Scum NN has just distracted us by leaning on XX over bullshit.

VOTE: NN

[shannon]

He's saying you aren't scum together. He's saying you're scum and nadro is town.

Correct, that is what *she* (me) is saying.

TL;DR: Your play doesn't make sense as a bus, but it does as a scum play where NN is town and an easy target.

[shannon]

@Accountant you've misread me (or maybe I miswrote?); I think NN30 is scum and XnadrojX is town. The only reason I could see XnadrojX as scum is if NN was bussing him, and it's gone way, way past the point where that's plausible. I want NN30 to go tomorrow.

@Keypendee my money's on NN sheeping me on to Fruits for town cred because he knows I'm not lynchable and he thought maybe I was going to lead a wagon on Fruits.

@XnadrojX Everyone isn't set on your lynch, I didn't want it and I think I might have been able to move keyen too. Never give in - or appear to be giving in - to your lynch unless it's tactical on your part and you think you can get out of it. I have had success as VT in saying things like 'OK, imagine you've lynched me, I'm gonna flip town so spend the rest of the day looking at who you'd end up looking at tomorrow anyway'. This has saved me at least once and we moved on to a good lynch. Remember, you know you're town, keep pushing everyone else to see it too even if you've dug yourself a hole through stupidity/poor play/mistakes.

@shannon: You say that you don't see anything scummy about XX, and so nn must be bussing him. How do you know it's not town!nn seeing something you don't, or interpreting XX's posts in a different way?

Accountant - You should take it easy on him for a bit and focus on others and as IC you have job and help the group to scum hunt from a different perspective. Your inability to focus on Nadroj seems suspicious to me.

This is untrue. I have spoken before about fruitsman and Wyvernite, and engaged with keyenpeydee. Furthermore, me focusing on XX makes perfect sense. I don't have any obligation to play devil's advocate with myself because I'm an IC; rather, it would be counterproductive as nobody does that and intentionally indulges in a different perapective or lets up on a scummy player just for kicks. Instead, I'm going to lead by example and show you how to scumhunt by focusing on who I find scummy, questioning them and getting them lynched.

I mean, for those that need to be reminded that nadro is scum, read his ISO. All he's done proactively is attack the only other scumread player in the game at the time (nn30). He's pretty much devoted all of his efforts to defending himself, voting his main attacker and focusing on nothing else since. The guy's the scummiest in the game, lynch plz.

Your vote is on XX, Fruitsman. You should want the conversation to go there too...

VOTE: Fruitsman

I don't get you here. Is this serious?

I think it's entirely plausible that XX just wanted to ask more questions before voting, and I don't think that's AI.

Well said. That's why I don't have a strong scum read on XX.

i'm at L-1 and ending 5 days before deadline isn't that early. We're at the point where everyone is set on my lynch and further discussion would just be something like:

Person A: He's scum
Person B: No
Person C: Yes
Person D: No
etc.
etc.

My lynch right now is inevitable. The best I can do right now is to make say as much as I know as after I flip VT people will know everything I have said day 1 is from a Town perspective, hopefully driving them to get the scum

[shannon]

I seriously can't believe how this game ended! Duuuuuudes totally don't rush your votes in LYLO.