Newbie 2066: Gelato 2 -- End!

[GuyInFreezer]

Also idk why ppl are so fixated to scum partners Day 1. It is not helpful on Day 1 because it asserts unnecessary bias in the game state. It's not too late to look for a partner after we flip scum.

[GuyInFreezer]

My reads are pretty accurate most of the time actually.

When you bother to actually read the game and don’t just sheep, I guess

You must be an alt who played with me during my peak lazy time lol.
I don't remember when was the last time I sheeped ppl hard though.

[sang froid]

Also idk why ppl are so fixated to scum partners Day 1. It is not helpful on Day 1 because it asserts unnecessary bias in the game state. It's not too late to look for a partner after we flip scum.

yes, so why does it matter if Johnny turns up before we lim or nah

My reads are pretty accurate most of the time actually.

When you bother to actually read the game and don’t just sheep, I guess

You must be an alt who played with me during my peak lazy time lol.
I don't remember when was the last time I sheeped ppl hard though.

also yes, but like I said I'll try to ignore it as being annoyed with you about it doesn't really accomplish anything

[sang froid]

Level with me jumble, are you scum? You’re increasingly beginning to feel like scum

[sang froid]

can we get intent on vax?

[GuyInFreezer]

yes, so why does it matter if Johnny turns up before we lim or nah

Attempt at perfect D1 solve. Like it's for personal reason. For gamestate reason Johnny matters none because as I said earlier we only need handful of correct universal townreads and we can eliminate the rest and still win.

[sang froid]

I don't have any experience of scum!GIF but I think it's unlikely that his main game plan involves hardbussing his buddy on D1 so if vax!scum assuming GiF!clear is probably safe

other than that there's too many assumptions being made around wagons, looking specifically at you here @rock

like there may have been scum on your wagon, but equally a town wagon hitting E-1 is not uncommon and if you get too locked onto that assumption it can really fuck you up. it's safer normally in a larger game where wagons have a lot more people on, but 4 town just agreeing on something (especially when it's being pushed ~fairly hard) isn't so odd

that's not to say there can't be scum on it, but like, this shouldn't be the primary reason for it if you end up thinking any of me/roden/clasko/T3 are scum

[sang froid]

eh I don't really care about the perfect D1 solve let's just get this done

[sang froid]

like you can keep canvassing for it if you want but if that's the only reason then I'm still gonna try to get the others to intent vax so we get a claim

[sang froid]

how confident are you on Roden?

I know 293 is a bit rambling but it's a legit concern for me

[GuyInFreezer]

like you can keep canvassing for it if you want but if that's the only reason then I'm still gonna try to get the others to intent vax so we get a claim

Yeah that's literally the only reason.
Well there was actually also that I saw a glimmer of potential of Vax being town but it got stale.

how confident are you on Roden?

I know 293 is a bit rambling but it's a legit concern for me

As of now I'm as confident as I can be in Day 1.
Can you quote me the posts that you have problem with? I'm on my phone atm and finding things is annoying on mobile.

[T3]

I'll reread Vax's ISO. I understand the wagon but I gut + 116 tr him.

[GuyInFreezer]

GIF, if you're really this confident in your reads, aren't you worried about getting NK'd tonight?

Also I don't think scum ask this question period.

[T3]

"Typically I'd just push something through, but this is a newbie game and I want to see what you guys got."

This.

To clarify, I want the newbies to make some decisions and not just take over the game. Again, I should not have made the

above statement

as it comes off as a little elitist/rude/

too obv town

to the other mafia veterans.

Just saw this. You...

shouldn't

have said it because it would make you obvtown?

[NotAJumbleOfNumbers]

Level with me jumble, are you scum? You’re increasingly beginning to feel like scum

I'd rather flip the question instead. Why do you think I'm scum?

[fferyllt]

JohnnyFarrar has been prodded.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Hello! VLA just ended so I gotta catch up in all my games. Your time is important to me and I'll get back to you with skims and reads Pronto

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 1-8

Although Buontalenti is credited with creating a precursor to gelato, there are differences between his sorbet and true Gelato. He served the sorbet with cream on top, but the sorbet, itself didn't cointain any dairy. The first gelato was not a product of Florence, but of Naples two hundred years after Buontalenti's time. The first gelato recipe was featured in a 18th century Neapolitan cookbook.

Vaxkiller

(4): Rockhopper, Roden, sang froid, NotAJumbleOfNumbers

GuyInFreezer

(2): Clasko, Vaxkiller

Rockhopper

(1): T3

Not Voting

(2): GuyInFreezer, JohnnyFarrar

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Deadline: June 15, Noon US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-06-15 09:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[Roden]

I'm at work and I have a lot to respond to, so please bare with me. My posts are going to be spread apart, time-wise.

I get your scum lean on T3, though I'm surprised Sang is currently null. Did something ping you?

If it weren't for that confusing opening then I'd probably townlean him but said opening has just muddied the waters a bit for me.

it's because I haven't been so present the last few days since I repped in, it's very normal

Ah, that all makes sense I guess. I noticed you started hanging back a lot more once more people started posting, but I don't think it's affecting my read on you too much. It explains why you're not scum reading Rock as harshly any more, you've had some time to just decompress and read where everything's going.

on the other hand, I struggle to read sincere newbie townplay as distinct from newbie scum play (like newbies trying very hard to make sure they're understood and being super logical is something that's more common than in more experienced players I think, who are more likely to act and then explain later)

We don't actually know if they're a newbie to Mafia or not, given that they never answered the RQS questions. It couldn’t hurt to ask.

@Roden

What is your Mafia experience?

Oh yeah, I didn't really pay attention to the RQS. I don't have a whole lot of forum or play-by-play experience. I've really only ever played it casually with friends as a party game. I've played other social deduction games since I really enjoy mystery solving, but I have little experience with "competitive" Mafia itself. I did study the Wiki a bit before signing up for games though.

[NotAJumbleOfNumbers]

Did you forget to respond to my quote?

[Roden]

Did you forget to respond to my quote?

No, sorry, I quoted both posts since they answered my question about the drop in Sang's placement in reads.

[Roden]

Are you still keeping this under wraps?

spent a bit considering whether I should answer this, but actually yeah, fuck it, I'll out it: it's Roden

it's a gut thing and I'm not really sure I want to follow it through with a hard push today bc my gut has mixed success when I feel ambivalent, pushing into decent when I feel very strongly about something

but I think that something feels off there, although I can't quite put my finger on what

maybe that I feel like he's taking quite uncontroversial opinions consistently and is making it very clear why he thinks what he thinks etc

the most recent thing that bothered me is the "why are you lying about things that can be confirmed?" which is something that I think often comes from scum when they think town has said something that's like, ambiguously true or in a grey area, and that can be pushed as falsehood

I also found the back-and-forth with me over voting rock weird, I think bc the initial insistence on independence and doing his own thing then came round to getting on board? it almost felt like someone who *wanted* to be persuaded to me, and the fact that he's now also joined on vax is... disquieting

on the other hand, I struggle to read sincere newbie townplay as distinct from newbie scum play (like newbies trying very hard to make sure they're understood and being super logical is something that's more common than in more experienced players I think, who are more likely to act and then explain later)

I think I'm still leaning on a vax lim today, bc I think if vax is scum then that looks good for Roden and this is most likely paranoia from the day taking a while. if vax town then I'll be looking at Roden more closely while I read overnight

I'm trying to read this as coming from someone who's town, and I can kinda get why you're concerned about me from that perspective. We both seem pretty confident on Vax being scum though, so I'm not sure why you'd rethink only my placement in your reads if they do flip green.

I don't really think I'm taking uncontroversial opinions, none of my reads are universally agreed with. Clasko and Jumble are both getting scum read by more than one person despite being my town read and town lean, and I town read you early on when no one really wanted to, especially as you purposely did scummy things. I just caught on to what you were doing.

I'm not sure why you think me being clear with my thought processes pings you either. Scum absolutely does not want to be clear with their intentions since it makes it harder for them to justify a vote on someone they've already town read. I try to make my thought process and stances in the game as clear as possible so there's never any doubt as to why I ever take certain actions.

The lying thing with Rock is weird. I get what you mean about scum wanting to zone in on inconsistencies with town, but Rock's lies here are blatant and come off as a desperate attempt to shade me. I pointed it out because...well, he's factually lying here.

The back and forth with you on Rock was because I wanted to see if you actually had substance for your case against him. If you felt that I wanted to be persuaded to vote him, that's because I actually did want you to persuade me. I want people to build cases, I've been saying that since the start. I gave clear reasons for my vote on Rock anyway, not only for the vote itself but also why I waited. Would you have hard town read me if I mindlessly sheeped you?

Not sure why the Vax vote is pinging both you and Rock when you both also voted Vax after hopping off of a different wagon. What sets my vote apart from yours here?

It's kinda funny that if Vax flips green then I look bad to you, but if Vax flips red then I look bad to Rock. Kinda can't win here lol. I'd like to know why Vax's flip gives you guys entirely different reads on me.

[Roden]

@Rockhopper

Do you have a readslist? Could you explain some of the choices?

Jumble

GIF

T3

Johnny
sang

Roden:

Spoiler:

Personal read. My wagon gained too much traction too quickly with no resistance, so I'm fairly certain there was scum on it. I don't like how he insisted on pushing it till the end without responding to my defense/reasoning even though the case was surface level af ("rock scum cus he vote sang for being anti-town, also joke pocket sus"). I don't like how "tried to wagon Clasko" was part of his case since that was obviously rvs. I also don't like how he wanted to heavily reevaluate Jumble in case I flipped town, since that sounds like lining up miselims (fmpov mostly). Vaxkiller's jump from null to highest scumread simply from GIF stating their iso sucked gives him good partner equity since bussing is kinda the meta for scum rn and Vaxkiller's reluctance to respond properly about Radon/Clask adds to this. All of Radon's reads apart from the metaread on T3 seem surface level/consensus, so there isn't much reason for me to TR him.

Vaxkiller

Clasko

Gun to head solve: Roden, Vaxk

Well, I was waiting until you'd try to make a case against me but uh, I wasn't expecting this. I don't really know how to address a Vax/me pairing because I honestly don't know how you came to that conclusion. If you want to invest in this case Day 2 then I'd be more than fine to meet you on that. I can only guess you're claiming it because my assumed hero solve at this point would probably be Vax/you (it actually isn't) and you want the distancing points. Because I honestly believe you'd have a more compelling case pairing me up with literally anyone else.

There's no reason for scum!Vax to be so laid back unless his partner is fairly (pro)active. And like I said, your insistence on eliminating me based on bad reasoning and your weird hop on Vaxk make you seem like the most likely choice for his partner. Why would I assume that when you literally say the opposite in 242

I'm not sure what post 242 is supposed to signify. I don't understand the jump from "Vax is laidback" to "their partner has to be you because you're active" either. What makes my reasoning bad over anyone else who scum read you? Why is it only specifically my reads on you that ping you, even though you scum read Sang and already believe Vax will flip red? Doesn't that mean not only were you completely wrong on Sang, you were also totally fine with that?

Given that I tr Jumble and Vax's vote was possibly rvs, I maintain that there's a good chance scum was on my wagon. Sang's wagon was feeble to begin with, and mine reached E-1 when it died (150)

You were getting wagoned because you made multiple scummy posts. Neither Vax or I even orchestrated your wagon, so I don't know how this somehow points to us being a scum pair?

Till the end of Day 1, like you said. And what did I lie about? You maintained your scumread on me and never commented on what I said in 110.
As far as I can tell, the reasons were: 1) that I was opportunistic, which is a weird buzzword to throw around because you could say the same for any vote anybody makes even if it came from a town perspective (which is the case here), 2) that my vote was based on flimsy reasoning, which I already disagreed with in 110, 3) that the joke about clearing each other for having the same tastes didn't read right, to which I say I'm awkward in general, and 4) that it's scummy to think an experienced scum player would blatantly post PR bait like that, which kinda contradicts itself.

What is post 110 supposed to signify...? I'm genuinely confused here. I made a guess about why Sang made their entrance the way they did, which you responded to, and that seemed to be it. I even responded to your original question in that post, so how am I ignoring you? Because I didn't comment on your commentary that wasn't even about me? Or is it because I continued to scum read you even after you tried to defend yourself? Because uh, I'm not the only one scum reading you for the things you listed.

It really just sounds like you're singling me out and scum reading me for doing the exact same thing five other people did. That really doesn't look good.

Whatever your reasons maybe, the fact that Vax did shift to being your scumread after GIF's statement doesn't sit well with me. You said it yourself that it was hard to discern scum!Vax's partner which is all the more incentive for you to bus at first chance, assuming you are his partner. And GIF was bound to explain his reads anyway (5 day solve or whatever), regardless of whether it was you or anyone else who would push him to do so. As for why Vax given the 2 other options? You expressed a strong townread on Clasko already and Johnny is yet to post. GIF's reasoning was good enough to keep him alive for today, and pushing him before wouldn't have made any sense.

The amount of mental gymnastics you have to perform to justify me being scum buddies with Vax is frustrating me right now. None of this sounds like it's being said in good faith. You already sound like you know Vax will flip red, and even I'm not sure of that since it's a toss up between you and Vax for me as it is.

I'm gonna say this one more time because I

really

feel like you don't understand what you're saying here.

For me to be scum buddies with Vax, I'd have to purposely and knowingly throw the game by bussing my partner when not only did they not have a wagon started on them yet, they didn't even have an actual

case

against them yet. I asked GIF to make his case. I added my own case then voted for Vax. And you're claiming I did all this while playing the active scum to their passive scum in order to provide cover for them, only to bus them for literally no reason with zero pressure.

How, in any way, does this win me the game if I'm scum buddies with Vax?

[Roden]

And GIF was bound to explain his reads anyway (5 day solve or whatever)

tbh I wasn't gonna until I remembered that this is a newbie game and thus I should play more constructively

Point being ppl were gonna push even if he didn't.

I've been one of like three people trying to push for more reads in a nine player game. I don't get why I do this as scum in what was at the time a low activity slow game. Can you explain why scum sees little gameplay going on but then practically begs for people to post more?

Also idk why ppl are so fixated to scum partners Day 1. It is not helpful on Day 1 because it asserts unnecessary bias in the game state. It's not too late to look for a partner after we flip scum.

True. I don't think it's a waste of time though since it at the very least gets people talking.

I'll reread Vax's ISO. I understand the wagon but I gut + 116 tr him.

116 is part of why I scum read Vax tbh. You'll likely become null for me if they flip red, I have to check your ISO again in case I missed something.

[Rockhopper]

I don't have any experience of scum!GIF but I think it's unlikely that his main game plan involves hardbussing his buddy on D1 so if vax!scum assuming GiF!clear is probably safe

other than that there's too many assumptions being made around wagons, looking specifically at you here @rock

like there may have been scum on your wagon, but equally a town wagon hitting E-1 is not uncommon and if you get too locked onto that assumption it can really fuck you up. it's safer normally in a larger game where wagons have a lot more people on, but 4 town just agreeing on something (especially when it's being pushed ~fairly hard) isn't so odd

that's not to say there can't be scum on it, but like, this shouldn't be the primary reason for it if you end up thinking any of me/roden/clasko/T3 are scum

In a vacuum, sure. But my trs on GIF/Jumble make me wanna take those odds.