Newbie 2066: Gelato 2 -- End!

[Roden]

^Uh, wrong game?

[Roden]

Oh.

VOTE: Clasko

[Roden]

Hoi ppl
What’s your favorite gelato flavor?

I'm a fan of raspberry. You?

also don't be fooled by my join date I actually cannot play Mafia

which is what I'm trying to fix by playing this game

But you've still played for awhile I assume?

[Roden]

Pretty sure sang is joking/baiting scum.

[Roden]

Oh.

VOTE: Clasko

I was literally the first one to vote lol

[Roden]

...What? I didn't accuse anyone of being scum. I said sang was likely just joking/baiting scum. As in, they were joking about having a PR, and/or baiting scum into thinking they had a PR.

[Roden]

I'll be honest, I didn't really like the joke pocket either but it's nothing to build any kind of case with.

Sang isn't pinging me atm, I think his "panic" feels more like bewilderment tbh.

T3 typically posts sporadically but he hasn't pushed on any wagons yet so that's already a slight town lean.

I'm willing to give GIF the benefit of the doubt since he genuinely could have misunderstood what I said. Gonna need more posts from him to get an unbiased read on him.

[Roden]

Everyone else is mainly null for now since it's still so early. Clasko didn't react to my vote and instead voted Rock. Vax hasn't really stood out much yet. Jumble seems a bit nervous. And we have to play the waiting game with Johnny so we have nothing to work with yet.

[Roden]

I didn't really like the joke pocket either but it's nothing to build any kind of case with.

Sang isn't pinging me atm, I think his "panic" feels more like bewilderment tbh

firstly, okay but how about it being worth a vote if you don’t have something more useful to do with yours rn? and secondly, what about rockhopper’s very lazy hop onto me and then equally trying-to-look-like-there’s-thought-behind-his-reads-but-not-really vote and explanation for said vote on me

Secondly, interesting-to-weird take — what in my posting sounds like bewilderment to you?

You're the second person to try to dictate my vote now.

I don't like wagoning on Day 1, it gives me zero information and doesn't give me much room to pressure somebody else if they start pinging me. I like to let others wagon since it gives me more info on the game state. E-3, E-2, and E-1 votes are extremely telling and are what I'm going to be basing a lot of my reads on.

Besides that, I'd also just prefer to VOTE: Jumble since they aren't receiving any pressure at all right now and haven't spoken up since helping start a wagon.

Also, you sounded bewildered to me because you got wagoned out of nowhere and your reaction to it felt aggressive rather than defensive.

[Roden]

But it's like some 4D chess shit so I can't really explain atm

Could we have a peek into the mind of Guyinfreezer?

Beat me to it. I want to give GIF benefit of the doubt but he isn't explaining any of his reads or actions. I don't trust anyone who reads people as town so early into the game. It always feels like a ploy to gain trust.

And no offense T3 but I especially don't trust anyone who specifically town reads you so early into the game since you play so chaotically. You're a town lean at best for me right now as it is.

[Roden]

Roden, thoughts on Rockhopper?

I didn't like the pocket comment or the wagon vote, and I agree with Sang that Rock's reasoning for his vote was flimsy at best. I don't think he really thought that vote through at all. He could just be trying to put on pressure just for the sake of it.

If it comes down to it, I'll vote him if no one can agree on a more suspicious player. I personally want to pressure Jumble more though since I think he's getting off easy here.

[Roden]

My biggest concern is what scum currently thinks of the game state. If the wagons don't shift in the coming days then they're likely perfectly happy with what's going on.

Everything is also subject to change once Johnny starts posting. His influence on the game will be interesting to read.

[Roden]

How can there be one scum between me and Sang if you think Sang is scum? Or are we your hero solve?

[Roden]

I don't like wagoning on Day 1,

it gives me zero information

and doesn't give me much room to pressure somebody else if they start pinging me. I like to let others wagon since it gives me more info on the game state. E-3, E-2, and E-1 votes are extremely telling and are what I'm going to be basing a lot of my reads on.

How does it not provide information? Surely it gives you information of a different sort, and how does it stop you pressuring anyone if you want to change your vote? You’re not beholden to keep voting on a wagon just because you did once?

And additionally, how is vanity voting someone (which is exerting very little pressure and is therefore unlikely to provide much information alone) better than helping put the squeeze on someone?

Also, why do you think E-3, E-2, and E-1 votes are especially important? Why are those more indicative of alignment fypov than wagon leaders or hammer votes?

Me putting my vote on a wagon means one less person is putting their vote on a wagon. When people vote, they're making their reads, suspicions, and alliances clear. I want to know who wants to put the most pressure on an E-2 wagon, and I literally cannot figure that out if I do it myself.

My "vanity" vote isn't a vanity vote at all if anyone else agrees with it. As much as you want

me

to vote with you,

you

are completely welcome to vote with me as well. You said you believed Jumble was scummy as well, so why focus on pressuring just Rock? It's not like I gave him a free pass, I've had plenty to say about him so far.

I think E-x votes are more AI because that's exactly where scum want to put their votes. Newbscum are terrified of looking suspicious, most aren't brave enough to lead a wagon they know will flip green, and doubly so for hammering a player they know will flip green. Middle votes generally just look and feel safe.

You're playing from an experienced perspective but you're forgetting this game style is specifically for people with little experience.

As for me being aggressive— yeah, sure, that’s not inaccurate but it’s more because I’m not particularly worried about getting limmed today and less about any level of confusion on my part. I was expecting to potentially pick up votes for my entrance because it was artificially scummy but I have every faith in myself to demonstrate that I’m town vía how I approach the game

You have three votes on you. I don't think your strat is working.

[Roden]

Sang, I'm trying very hard to stick to my town read on you, but it's really difficult when you keep intentionally lacing your posts as scummy lol

I'll give it some thought, but if no one else puts Rock at E-1 by tomorrow then I'll just do it my self so we can keep the game going. I think scum is spooked and don't want to declare any allegiances by putting either of you within hamner range. Though it's also entirely possible it hasn't happened because Johnny isn't here.

I really need to hear more from GIF and Jumble too.

[Roden]

Why exactly did you decide to enter like that?

This question alone gives me newbie town vibes. But at the same time, it conflicts with your earlier posts.

My only guess is that they were checking for reactions. That's why they're scum reading you and Jumble.

[Roden]

I really need to hear more from GIF and Jumble too.

I'll reiterate by adding Clasko and Vax to this list. Minimal posts from both but especially Vax. Vax has only posted three times, and two of them were just naked votes.

Man, are there really only four of us actively playing right now?

[Roden]

I think scum is spooked and don't want to declare any allegiances by putting either of you within hamner range.

Wait, you think neither one of us is scum?

It's a possibility, if only because barely anyone is posting in the first place and giving us much to work with.

But what I meant by that post is that,

if

one of you is scum, your partner wouldn't want the attention of making an E-1 vote. I think it's likely only one scum has actually voted on a wagon and that the second one is playing more passively for now. There's just no reason for both scum to be active in a slow game tbh.

[Roden]

I really need to hear more from GIF and Jumble too.

Sorry for bringing up this so early in the game, but I just don't respond well to pressure. I've been trying to fix this for a while now, and really the only way that's going to happen if I just keep posting. But my reading ability is basically non-existent! What am I supposed to do then?

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a dick here! Just giving your opinions on what's going on and what people are saying is helpful. It lets everyone else get a better read of you and figure out where you stand in the game.

[Roden]

I don't like wagoning on Day 1,

it gives me zero information

and doesn't give me much room to pressure somebody else if they start pinging me. I like to let others wagon since it gives me more info on the game state. E-3, E-2, and E-1 votes are extremely telling and are what I'm going to be basing a lot of my reads on.

How does it not provide information? Surely it gives you information of a different sort, and how does it stop you pressuring anyone if you want to change your vote? You’re not beholden to keep voting on a wagon just because you did once?

And additionally, how is vanity voting someone (which is exerting very little pressure and is therefore unlikely to provide much information alone) better than helping put the squeeze on someone?

Also, why do you think E-3, E-2, and E-1 votes are especially important? Why are those more indicative of alignment fypov than wagon leaders or hammer votes?

Me putting my vote on a wagon means one less person is putting their vote on a wagon. When people vote, they're making their reads, suspicions, and alliances clear. I want to know who wants to put the most pressure on an E-2 wagon, and I literally cannot figure that out if I do it myself.

My "vanity" vote isn't a vanity vote at all if anyone else agrees with it. As much as you want

me

to vote with you,

you

are completely welcome to vote with me as well. You said you believed Jumble was scummy as well, so why focus on pressuring just Rock? It's not like I gave him a free pass, I've had plenty to say about him so far.

I think E-x votes are more AI because that's exactly where scum want to put their votes. Newbscum are terrified of looking suspicious, most aren't brave enough to lead a wagon they know will flip green, and doubly so for hammering a player they know will flip green. Middle votes generally just look and feel safe.

You're playing from an experienced perspective but you're forgetting this game style is specifically for people with little experience.

As for me being aggressive— yeah, sure, that’s not inaccurate but it’s more because I’m not particularly worried about getting limmed today and less about any level of confusion on my part. I was expecting to potentially pick up votes for my entrance because it was artificially scummy but I have every faith in myself to demonstrate that I’m town vía how I approach the game

You have three votes on you. I don't think your strat is working.

Right, but like, that’s applicable to every slot in the game, and the more people who refuse to get involved in wagons the harder it becomes to parse the game overall. Like yes, it’s useful to *you* to gain information playing like that, but it’s also useful for every other town player in the game for you to take such stances and positions on wagons to try and see what’s going on in your head.

And actually what I said was that the initial votes were scummy but that I don’t think there’s more than 1 scum in the two of them, which actually makes me lean jumble as town rn, in consequence of my rockhopper read. And there’s more to wha makes a vanity — yes, you’re voting there, but you’re not really like, canvassing much for votes or trying to make your case on why jumble is the best wagon here, you’re just sort of plopping a vote down and hoping it does something, instead of taking active measures to ensure it does. My argument is that your vote does more for the game by adding some danger through putting scum at e-1 and getting a claim

And ehhh, there’s something in the whole experienced perspective thing but that’s also just a bit too reductive? Think there’s something to the idea that newbscum can be reluctant but there’s daychat and SEs who can coach them, and then there’s newbies on this site who aren’t newbies to mafia, and then there’s just bold newbies. If it was as simple as “middle votes are scummier” the game would be a lot easier

~~

Also, seems to be working fine to me? My preferred wagon just became the leading one and I’m planning to get rock to e-1 by the end of irl today. Votes on me are kind of immaterial and especially as if I’m right then scum!rock doesn’t exactly have any incentive t unvote me lol

I understand it's kinda selfish of me to not vote someone but then expect others to, but I am trying to alleviate it by at least explaining why I think said person still deserves a vote while wanting to know who else agrees/disagrees with the sentiment. And I think I have learned something: a lot of people seem to be scum reading Rock now, but he's still only at E-2. It makes me think scum don't want this game state to progress, if nothing else.

Part of my reasoning for my vote was to see if anyone would follow it or agree with me. I'm seeing a couple scum reads for Jumble but no votes. Rock didn't hop over either, so he does seem invested in tunneling you.

I can understand if you don't buy into middle votes being scum indicative. It's just something I've noticed in Mafia/Werewolf style games in general. Regardless no one else seems to want to be the E-1 vote anyway, so,

VOTE: Rockhopper

If nothing else, this should advance the game. Let's see if scum panics.

[Roden]

I also agree with Clasko that Sang vs Rock isn't scum vs scum. It just doesn't make any sense to do in a slow game.

[Roden]

Sry, you guys deserve better. I should have marked myself VLA over the weekend. Some weeks are better than others, but last week end was really busy. But I'm here now on the weekdays!

Btw I have no excuses.
One liners will be all y’all get from me unless I feel a big need to post longer which is basically almost never.
Why drag it out in paragraphs when I can say two lines to say what I need amirite

With that said now I have pretty strong 5 townreads. I can prob really solve this in 4 days.

It would help everyone get a better read on you if you did drag it out since you have no detailed reads and note vote on the table. You're just coasting right now.

[Roden]

*no vote on the table, sorry

[Roden]

I don't see it but I should prolly move elsewhere for a while
VOTE: Vaxkiller

Not a fan of him trynna start a wagon on GIF instead of commenting on the gamestate. And His questions feel kinda pointless, something scum would do to appear active.

While I don't disagree that it was a weird post, they at least did finally add something, and it isn't a vote I disagree with either. GIF's not exactly scummy, but he's at least coming off very anti-town right now.

Either way, I'm not sure why you're changing your vote like that? You're kinda in the hot seat atm and should be affirming how town you are, not deflecting onto another player. Vax isn't pinging me enough to earn some pressure right now anyway.

[Roden]

Do you ever have one of those moments where you regret literally every post you've made? Yeah that just happened to me

I now regret this one too.

To clarify, I'm pretty sure I was being hypocritical (didn't explain the quoted post, for one), sheepy (my posts on GuyInFreezer), and I also just failed to remember that the vote I had before the unvote wasn't even an RVS one. Ugh.

Tbh, your posts are earning town points from me. You made a very good point about the amount of town reads GIF has.

[Roden]

Current reads since I had to reevaluate how many town reads I actually have now:

Town Read

Clasko- He didn't post much for awhile, but I like his more recent posts,

and not just because he hard town read me lol,

our reads seem similar and he's explaining his thought process well enough. Placement may change if Rock flips green though.

Sang- My impression is overall still the same. Even if Rock flips green, I don't think Sang's placement changes. However, they're still lower than Clasko because I haven't ruled out that they could just be making a ballsy scum play, and they're fully admitting they're doing scummy shit on purpose to bait people.

Town Lean

T3- He's asking a lot of helpful questions and has been pretty active, that always feels townie to me. However I feel iffy on the GIF town read.

Jumble- He jumped up from a scum lean to a town lean after his recent posts. His nervousness makes a bit more sense after his explanation now too. Though, it's possible he's just trying to earn some trust after failing a wagon, so he isn't a full town read. Will probably heavily reevaluate this read if Rock flips green.

Null

Vax- I don't mind the vote on GIF but they didn't actually explain why they voted for GIF. I don't really know what they think of the current game state or if they have any reads yet. I can only guess they're scum reading GIF but I have no idea why they are.

Johnny- This one is obvious. It kinda sucks that they've been gone so long since their presence could potentially influence my other reads.

Scum Lean

GIF- As was said, he's coming off very anti-town. He keep dangling a carrot on a stick and promising he's gonna solve the game, but he's giving us absolutely nothing. Also have no clue how he could possibly have five town reads.

Rock- Other than everything else that has been said, I looked through his earlier posts again and I got the sense that he's playing very opportunistically. In the beginning he tried to wagon Clasko, joked about pocketing T3, then tried to wagon Sang. It just doesn't look town at all to me. Hopping his vote onto Vax to try to get a third wagon going looks even worse.

[Roden]

You're kinda in the hot seat atm and should be affirming how town you are, not deflecting onto another player.

I did defend my reasoning if that's what you mean.

I understand your reasoning for the vote, but you essentially just gave up on your scum read of Sang and tried to put attention on someone else. You're not giving us any reason to think that

you're

town though.

[Roden]

I don't want to vote Clasko. I'd have to see a pretty compelling case for anyone scum reading him since he's at the top of my town list atm.

I do lowkey suspect Johnny too but I can't justify a vote on him when he isn't even here.

GIF town reading five people does admittedly make no sense to do if he's scum. However, idk how he's reading Sang, Rock, Jumble, and me all as town when the four of us were all pointing fingers at each other.

[Roden]

Hey friends, dealing with some family business so my time is at a premium rn, but I'll do a skim and vote in a couple hours

That's completely understandable, this ultimately is just a game. Hopefully everything's going ok on your end.

[Roden]

Side note, I do think it's interesting (and kinda funny) that Sang and GIF are both extremely confident in their reads and skill at the game but ended up with completely different take aways on their town/scum reads.

[Roden]

UNVOTE:

I just noticed Sang's vote isn't being counted anymore even though they didn't unvote or change their vote. If it's just a mistake and they meant to keep their vote, then I'll put mine back. But I don't like that I was pressured to vote by two different people with opposing reads despite the fact that they themselves aren't voting.

This doesn't change my scum read on Rock since I still think they made some scummy/opportunistic posts. And Sang's explanation for their scum read on Rock makes sense to me. But I'm willing to change my stance here if more reads get explained.

Most likely putting my vote back on Rock as we near the end of Day 1 though since getting info from GIF is like pulling teeth, and he seems to be the only person town reading Rock.

[Roden]

VOTE: Clasko

Why Clasko and what do you think of Roden's townread on him?

Shrug. What does rodens townread matter on him?

I mean, Roden stated that their reads/thought processes matched, so I was wondering why you would townread one of them and vote the other.

Cause Roden can be town but wrong.

This is very fair tbh. I feel a little better when people push back on my reads or make their own conflicting reads. The scum doesn't feel obvious right now and I'd likely second guess myself if everyone just agreed with me.

The reason I'm town reading Clasko so highly is that even though we have a similar thought process here, it doesn't sound like he's just sheeping me. He's adding his own comments and the counter pressure on GIF seems appropriate.

[Roden]

Jumble is my biggest questiomark right now. He seems to be self conscious about his posting but I can't tel whether it's town or scum self consciousness.

I think this being notable about Jumble from the start is what makes me lean town for him right now.

I do have a

slight

concern that he could be trying to pocket me (hard town reading me, defending my reads), but that's just a paranoid thought tbh, and he isn't coming off as opportunistic anyway.

[Roden]

GIF, if you're really this confident in your reads, aren't you worried about getting NK'd tonight? You're the only one putting pressure on Clasko and Johnny, while Rock is the only other person pressuring Vax. Why would scum kill anyone but you tonight, especially in the case of Clasko being scum?

My issue is that you need to make a compelling case if youre actually spot on here. I don't really buy into your read on Clasko, and I could be convinced on your other two scum reads but I have no idea

why

you're scum reading them yet. If the scum is any of those three, I don't currently see any way we could get five votes on any them. Which, again, if you're right, means scum 100% survives Day 1. If scum proceeds to then NK you, we're left only with a list of names but no real case against them.

It just feels counter productive to not just tell us what's going on in your head if you truly believe you've solved the game.

[Roden]

Like, this is really only a solved game if you did nail both scum in your reads and we just sheep wagon all three out. But you haven't convinced us to do that. I don't think you

could

convince us to do that.

[Roden]

There's an issue with the vote-counter that I've been using this game, which resulted in a vote inaccuracy in the 1-5 and 1-6 vote counts. They have been corrected to add sang froid's vote on Rockhopper.

Ah, ok I was wondering about that. I said I would put my vote back if Sang's vote was just a glitch, so...

VOTE: Rockhopper

Though it's interesting that Sang is doubting their scum read now. I get it, but some posts stick out to me too much to not still suspect Rock.

[Roden]

Just to reiterate my stance.

I am NOT willing to vote Clasko right now. It would take a major scum slip or a guilty reveal from a Cop to make me budge. Day 2 could potentially change this but as of Day 1, Clasko won't receive my vote.

Vax or Johnny MAY receive my vote if a strong case is made against them. Both are null for me atm and I could see one of them playing as a passive partner to a more active scum.

But again, as if now, Rock has my vote.

[Roden]

That's all I wanted GIF, lol.

VOTE: Vaxkiller

[Roden]

GIF, if you're really this confident in your reads, aren't you worried about getting NK'd tonight?

My goal is to be nightkilled N1 regardless of whether I have PR or not. I wear N1 death as a badge of honor.

My issue is that you need to make a compelling case if youre actually spot on here. I don't really buy into your read on Clasko, and I could be convinced on your other two scum reads but I have no idea why you're scum reading them yet. If the scum is any of those three, I don't currently see any way we could get five votes on any them.

That kind of thing doesn’t work on me because I’m not “scum”hunting. If it wasn’t obvious yet, I look for the strongest townreads and move downwards. So no, I will never really have the “case” unless the scum is playing so godawful that I was compelled to point it out. So really all I say re: vax and Johnny is... Well, do you think they’re more town than any other players in this game?

I do notably have them both as null on my reads. I feel like Johnny's slot could go either way, but Vax has been

very

back and forth for me. Every time they make a post that makes me think they're leaning town (like refusing to sheep reads and votes), they then immediately make either a chaotic play (wanting to wagon a VLA slot) or an opportunistic vote (literally all of them). They only stayed null because I can't fathom who their partner could actually be.

Call it tunneling, that would be fair, but I can't let go of my suspicions on Rock. His opportunistic votes have pinged me more than anything else so far. But, I don't think Vax or Clasko are his partners in this scenario. I see your case on Clasko a little more clearly now but I still town read him. But your case against Vax makes sense and I do agree with it. And if Vax really is scum, I can feel more comfortable dropping my suspicion on Rock.

As far as who Vax's partner could be...the only way it doesn't conflict with my town reads or yours is if it's Johnny. Based on nothing more than PoE at this point, which can easily change once Johnny actually starts posting.

[Roden]

As far as who Vax's partner could be...the only way it doesn't conflict with my town reads or yours is if it's Johnny. Based on nothing more than PoE at this point, which can easily change once Johnny actually starts posting.

It's a bit of a hot take, but T3, maybe? Most of my conviction comes off of 198 which feels like an attempted setup for the d2 elimination more than anything else. Also, the strong TR read on Vaxkiller of all things. The only arguments he's given is "116 feels naturally towny" and it's not even a good one at that.

Honestly, I don't think it's too hot of a take after these past few pages. He looks about as paired up with Vax as GIF does with Rock, based on their reads. Though, T3 does have a very distinct meta; my only other completed game also had T3 in it and he got caught through meta on page 1. GIF's statement that T3 is an oddball adds up with what I know. He makes bizarre plays as scum and distances himself hard from a scum buddy, and tends to sacrifice himself Day 1 too.

If he's scum, he's playing against his meta since I haven't seen any weird distancing strats. Which I think would be even more noticeable tbh since it's intertwined with his town meta. That's the biggest reason I have him as a town lean. I've been looking for his tells since page 1 lol.

Since you haven't voted yet, what's your opinion on the current game state? Between Vax, GIF, and Rock, who's coming off most town to you?

[Roden]

Also, Sang, has your read on Rock changed over the past few days?

[Roden]

Though, T3 does have a very distinct meta; my only other completed game also had T3 in it and he got caught through meta on page 1. GIF's statement that T3 is an oddball adds up with what I know. He makes bizarre plays as scum and distances himself hard from a scum buddy, and tends to sacrifice himself Day 1 too.

Please do not "meta" with sample size of only one game.

Sorry, I should've clarified that four other games were analyzed to get the scum read on T3 in that game, so it's really a sample size of five. It's what convinced me to look for his tells here, since I was skeptical until it turned out that meta read easily won the game for town.

What locked T3 as town for you?

GIF occasionally has decent reads

My reads are pretty accurate most of the time actually.

vax's attempts to spin 116 as being a townslip or as being strongly +town hits me as wrong, as does the assertion that he's obvtown from a page ago

There are plenty of reasons to scumread Vax but this ain't it. Former is actually more of a townleaning move and randomly claming obvtown was a fad that existed (still exists? I dunno I took a long break and just came back) back then.

I actually kinda agree with Sang here. Vax sounds frustrated that his town slip wasn't convincing enough. I don't think town would react that way, but scum likely would.

[Roden]

What locked T3 as town for you?

Plays too weird to be scum + 4D chess.
Some reads are just this simple.

I don't think town would react that way

Oh some defo do. See, there is this fancy thing called "town bias." Sometimes town fails to mentally grasp the concept that some things are done as scum/not as town because the thought that they are town is so drilled in their head. It's like a confirmation bias, but a bias that comes because they're town thus they cannot be scum. I think the way he reacted is kinda showing this. Now I said "townlean" because yes scum can obviously do this so it's not a strong tell. Arguably it's kinda hard to explain this because it's tied to my perception of ppl's emotion when making a post and if ppl go "I disagree" I can't really do jack about that. tl;dr the act itself sucks but I don't think the way he did it is scummy.

Should Vax actually be at E-1 then if you think that was a townlean response...? I think keeping on the pressure here is a good idea regardless so I won't unvote, but that kinda changes things.

Since you haven't voted yet, what's your opinion on the current game state? Between Vax, GIF, and Rock, who's coming off most town to you?

I'll just post my entire readslist as of now:
(Town)

Roden

GIF / Clasko

Sang
Johnny

T3
Rockhopper

Vaxkiller

(Mafia)

I'm going to be focusing on the three you wanted me to talk about:

We start from the top: GIF. I was kinda worried that their confident push for 5 TRs was just a ploy to sneak through the other scum and immediately back down, but they seem to have held on their reads, with rather great explanations to boot. And no, it's not because they townread me.

Next up: Rockhopper. I just don't see a lot of proaction in this slot. There are too many questions and not enough answers and reads. On top of that, there doesn't seem to be a lot of direction in their posts. Feels like a "trying to find something to criticize for the sake of it" kind of play.

@Rockhopper

Do you have a readslist? Could you explain some of the choices?

And finally: Vaxkiller. He was already pretty bad to begin with (see #243) but his insistence on the only kind of maybe towny thing he did (#116) being towny only dug him deeper in my mind. Not so much that he tried to defend it, but he was all "c'mon everyone knows this is obvtown" when it clearly wasn't. Look, not everything you say will look towny. You just have to make the towny parts outshine the scummy parts to look towny as a whole.

VOTE: Vaxkiller E-1

I like these reads tbh, you're bringing up your own points and it's pretty consistent with your ISO. I get your scum lean on T3, though I'm surprised Sang is currently null. Did something ping you?

[Roden]

@Rockhopper

Do you have a readslist? Could you explain some of the choices?

Jumble

GIF

T3

Johnny
sang

Roden:

Spoiler:

Personal read. My wagon gained too much traction too quickly with no resistance, so I'm fairly certain there was scum on it. I don't like how he insisted on pushing it till the end without responding to my defense/reasoning even though the case was surface level af ("rock scum cus he vote sang for being anti-town, also joke pocket sus"). I don't like how "tried to wagon Clasko" was part of his case since that was obviously rvs. I also don't like how he wanted to heavily reevaluate Jumble in case I flipped town, since that sounds like lining up miselims (fmpov mostly). Vaxkiller's jump from null to highest scumread simply from GIF stating their iso sucked gives him good partner equity since bussing is kinda the meta for scum rn and Vaxkiller's reluctance to respond properly about Radon/Clask adds to this. All of Radon's reads apart from the metaread on T3 seem surface level/consensus, so there isn't much reason for me to TR him.

Vaxkiller

Clasko

Gun to head solve: Roden, Vaxk

Well, I was waiting until you'd try to make a case against me but uh, I wasn't expecting this. I don't really know how to address a Vax/me pairing because I honestly don't know how you came to that conclusion. If you want to invest in this case Day 2 then I'd be more than fine to meet you on that. I can only guess you're claiming it because my assumed hero solve at this point would probably be Vax/you (it actually isn't) and you want the distancing points. Because I honestly believe you'd have a more compelling case pairing me up with literally anyone else.

Gonna address your one and only personal read:

-Your wagon didn't "gain too much traction without resistance." It was in counter to Sang's, and both your wagons died around the same time. Mainly because I took my vote off of you

twice

and acknowledged I was possibly tunneling. Vax notably was voting

with

you against Sang.

-I'm not pushing you "till the end", I'm still currently pushing you. And it's weird that you're lying and saying I haven't responded to your defense or reasoning when I explicitly had to make a post asking you to do exactly that. A good portion of my ISO is just me responding to you and making reads that involve you. I don't know how you can claim that I've in any way ignored you without thinking that sounds even a little bit scummy to lie about. It's so easy to go back and fact check my dude.

-The case wasn't surface level, and those weren't the only things I or multiple other people brought up. You had four votes on you and several people laying out their reads and reasonings for you, but all you can remember is post 160?

-The potential Jumble reevaluation is less likely now to be fair, since I feel like I've got a better read on him now than I did a few days ago. But I'll give you that, I can understand why you think it looks like a Day 2 miselim set up, it wasn't meant to be though.

-Vax isn't my highest scum read, he's about tied with you. You and GIF both go up to a town lean though if Vax flips red. The reason I put my vote on Vax has a lot more to do with than them having a shitty ISO, and this is something I've already stated several times. Why do you keep lying about very basic things that take five minutes to fact check?

-Why would I bus Vax if GIF gave three options for his scum read? In fact, why do I not just jump on GIF since nobody trusted him and he already had two votes? Nobody had jumped on any of his reads yet, and I was only the second vote on Vax. I voted with you here in fact. What makes even less sense is that I'm the one who pushed the most for GIF to explain his reads! Are you saying I saw a shady looking town player scum read my partner with no explanation, practically begged him to explain his reads when he kept saying no, then unnecessarily bussed my partner? I just don't understand how this makes sense to you.

-What about my reads are surface level or general consensus...? I've been pretty open with my thought process the entire time and I've tried to reply to people and update my stances on every page. I've been giving reads even on days where the thread's inactive. A general consensus didn't even

exist

for a little while until I started asking for more people to start giving their thoughts on the game.

-Why is Sang null on your reads list now? You said multiple times that you believed they were scum, but now you've dropped that for a Vax/Roden pairing? What's the thought process behind this, because that wasn't gradual at all.

[Roden]

Interesting to see Clasko and I diverge a lot a more from our earlier shared mind set, but I don't see anything wrong with his updated reads. I actually agree that Vax feels like an easy elim, but I think part of it is that it's just not hard to justify a vote on them. Vax isn't doing a lot to gain town points, only giving us a "town slip" that doesn't really guarantee much of anything.

[Roden]

Side tangent thing before I go to bed because Jumble seems to be pretty controversially read.

Sang and Clasko are scum reading Jumble. Rock, GIF, and I are town reading Jumble. T3 and Vax appear to have Jumble as null. Not sure what to make of this or if it even means anything, but it's interesting that none of my town reads are reading Jumble as town.

Sang also surprisingly dropped down to null for a few people now. I feel like I'm missing something.

[Roden]

I'm at work and I have a lot to respond to, so please bare with me. My posts are going to be spread apart, time-wise.

I get your scum lean on T3, though I'm surprised Sang is currently null. Did something ping you?

If it weren't for that confusing opening then I'd probably townlean him but said opening has just muddied the waters a bit for me.

it's because I haven't been so present the last few days since I repped in, it's very normal

Ah, that all makes sense I guess. I noticed you started hanging back a lot more once more people started posting, but I don't think it's affecting my read on you too much. It explains why you're not scum reading Rock as harshly any more, you've had some time to just decompress and read where everything's going.

on the other hand, I struggle to read sincere newbie townplay as distinct from newbie scum play (like newbies trying very hard to make sure they're understood and being super logical is something that's more common than in more experienced players I think, who are more likely to act and then explain later)

We don't actually know if they're a newbie to Mafia or not, given that they never answered the RQS questions. It couldn’t hurt to ask.

@Roden

What is your Mafia experience?

Oh yeah, I didn't really pay attention to the RQS. I don't have a whole lot of forum or play-by-play experience. I've really only ever played it casually with friends as a party game. I've played other social deduction games since I really enjoy mystery solving, but I have little experience with "competitive" Mafia itself. I did study the Wiki a bit before signing up for games though.

[Roden]

Did you forget to respond to my quote?

No, sorry, I quoted both posts since they answered my question about the drop in Sang's placement in reads.

[Roden]

Are you still keeping this under wraps?

spent a bit considering whether I should answer this, but actually yeah, fuck it, I'll out it: it's Roden

it's a gut thing and I'm not really sure I want to follow it through with a hard push today bc my gut has mixed success when I feel ambivalent, pushing into decent when I feel very strongly about something

but I think that something feels off there, although I can't quite put my finger on what

maybe that I feel like he's taking quite uncontroversial opinions consistently and is making it very clear why he thinks what he thinks etc

the most recent thing that bothered me is the "why are you lying about things that can be confirmed?" which is something that I think often comes from scum when they think town has said something that's like, ambiguously true or in a grey area, and that can be pushed as falsehood

I also found the back-and-forth with me over voting rock weird, I think bc the initial insistence on independence and doing his own thing then came round to getting on board? it almost felt like someone who *wanted* to be persuaded to me, and the fact that he's now also joined on vax is... disquieting

on the other hand, I struggle to read sincere newbie townplay as distinct from newbie scum play (like newbies trying very hard to make sure they're understood and being super logical is something that's more common than in more experienced players I think, who are more likely to act and then explain later)

I think I'm still leaning on a vax lim today, bc I think if vax is scum then that looks good for Roden and this is most likely paranoia from the day taking a while. if vax town then I'll be looking at Roden more closely while I read overnight

I'm trying to read this as coming from someone who's town, and I can kinda get why you're concerned about me from that perspective. We both seem pretty confident on Vax being scum though, so I'm not sure why you'd rethink only my placement in your reads if they do flip green.

I don't really think I'm taking uncontroversial opinions, none of my reads are universally agreed with. Clasko and Jumble are both getting scum read by more than one person despite being my town read and town lean, and I town read you early on when no one really wanted to, especially as you purposely did scummy things. I just caught on to what you were doing.

I'm not sure why you think me being clear with my thought processes pings you either. Scum absolutely does not want to be clear with their intentions since it makes it harder for them to justify a vote on someone they've already town read. I try to make my thought process and stances in the game as clear as possible so there's never any doubt as to why I ever take certain actions.

The lying thing with Rock is weird. I get what you mean about scum wanting to zone in on inconsistencies with town, but Rock's lies here are blatant and come off as a desperate attempt to shade me. I pointed it out because...well, he's factually lying here.

The back and forth with you on Rock was because I wanted to see if you actually had substance for your case against him. If you felt that I wanted to be persuaded to vote him, that's because I actually did want you to persuade me. I want people to build cases, I've been saying that since the start. I gave clear reasons for my vote on Rock anyway, not only for the vote itself but also why I waited. Would you have hard town read me if I mindlessly sheeped you?

Not sure why the Vax vote is pinging both you and Rock when you both also voted Vax after hopping off of a different wagon. What sets my vote apart from yours here?

It's kinda funny that if Vax flips green then I look bad to you, but if Vax flips red then I look bad to Rock. Kinda can't win here lol. I'd like to know why Vax's flip gives you guys entirely different reads on me.

[Roden]

@Rockhopper

Do you have a readslist? Could you explain some of the choices?

Jumble

GIF

T3

Johnny
sang

Roden:

Spoiler:

Personal read. My wagon gained too much traction too quickly with no resistance, so I'm fairly certain there was scum on it. I don't like how he insisted on pushing it till the end without responding to my defense/reasoning even though the case was surface level af ("rock scum cus he vote sang for being anti-town, also joke pocket sus"). I don't like how "tried to wagon Clasko" was part of his case since that was obviously rvs. I also don't like how he wanted to heavily reevaluate Jumble in case I flipped town, since that sounds like lining up miselims (fmpov mostly). Vaxkiller's jump from null to highest scumread simply from GIF stating their iso sucked gives him good partner equity since bussing is kinda the meta for scum rn and Vaxkiller's reluctance to respond properly about Radon/Clask adds to this. All of Radon's reads apart from the metaread on T3 seem surface level/consensus, so there isn't much reason for me to TR him.

Vaxkiller

Clasko

Gun to head solve: Roden, Vaxk

Well, I was waiting until you'd try to make a case against me but uh, I wasn't expecting this. I don't really know how to address a Vax/me pairing because I honestly don't know how you came to that conclusion. If you want to invest in this case Day 2 then I'd be more than fine to meet you on that. I can only guess you're claiming it because my assumed hero solve at this point would probably be Vax/you (it actually isn't) and you want the distancing points. Because I honestly believe you'd have a more compelling case pairing me up with literally anyone else.

There's no reason for scum!Vax to be so laid back unless his partner is fairly (pro)active. And like I said, your insistence on eliminating me based on bad reasoning and your weird hop on Vaxk make you seem like the most likely choice for his partner. Why would I assume that when you literally say the opposite in 242

I'm not sure what post 242 is supposed to signify. I don't understand the jump from "Vax is laidback" to "their partner has to be you because you're active" either. What makes my reasoning bad over anyone else who scum read you? Why is it only specifically my reads on you that ping you, even though you scum read Sang and already believe Vax will flip red? Doesn't that mean not only were you completely wrong on Sang, you were also totally fine with that?

Given that I tr Jumble and Vax's vote was possibly rvs, I maintain that there's a good chance scum was on my wagon. Sang's wagon was feeble to begin with, and mine reached E-1 when it died (150)

You were getting wagoned because you made multiple scummy posts. Neither Vax or I even orchestrated your wagon, so I don't know how this somehow points to us being a scum pair?

Till the end of Day 1, like you said. And what did I lie about? You maintained your scumread on me and never commented on what I said in 110.
As far as I can tell, the reasons were: 1) that I was opportunistic, which is a weird buzzword to throw around because you could say the same for any vote anybody makes even if it came from a town perspective (which is the case here), 2) that my vote was based on flimsy reasoning, which I already disagreed with in 110, 3) that the joke about clearing each other for having the same tastes didn't read right, to which I say I'm awkward in general, and 4) that it's scummy to think an experienced scum player would blatantly post PR bait like that, which kinda contradicts itself.

What is post 110 supposed to signify...? I'm genuinely confused here. I made a guess about why Sang made their entrance the way they did, which you responded to, and that seemed to be it. I even responded to your original question in that post, so how am I ignoring you? Because I didn't comment on your commentary that wasn't even about me? Or is it because I continued to scum read you even after you tried to defend yourself? Because uh, I'm not the only one scum reading you for the things you listed.

It really just sounds like you're singling me out and scum reading me for doing the exact same thing five other people did. That really doesn't look good.

Whatever your reasons maybe, the fact that Vax did shift to being your scumread after GIF's statement doesn't sit well with me. You said it yourself that it was hard to discern scum!Vax's partner which is all the more incentive for you to bus at first chance, assuming you are his partner. And GIF was bound to explain his reads anyway (5 day solve or whatever), regardless of whether it was you or anyone else who would push him to do so. As for why Vax given the 2 other options? You expressed a strong townread on Clasko already and Johnny is yet to post. GIF's reasoning was good enough to keep him alive for today, and pushing him before wouldn't have made any sense.

The amount of mental gymnastics you have to perform to justify me being scum buddies with Vax is frustrating me right now. None of this sounds like it's being said in good faith. You already sound like you know Vax will flip red, and even I'm not sure of that since it's a toss up between you and Vax for me as it is.

I'm gonna say this one more time because I

really

feel like you don't understand what you're saying here.

For me to be scum buddies with Vax, I'd have to purposely and knowingly throw the game by bussing my partner when not only did they not have a wagon started on them yet, they didn't even have an actual

case

against them yet. I asked GIF to make his case. I added my own case then voted for Vax. And you're claiming I did all this while playing the active scum to their passive scum in order to provide cover for them, only to bus them for literally no reason with zero pressure.

How, in any way, does this win me the game if I'm scum buddies with Vax?

[Roden]

And GIF was bound to explain his reads anyway (5 day solve or whatever)

tbh I wasn't gonna until I remembered that this is a newbie game and thus I should play more constructively

Point being ppl were gonna push even if he didn't.

I've been one of like three people trying to push for more reads in a nine player game. I don't get why I do this as scum in what was at the time a low activity slow game. Can you explain why scum sees little gameplay going on but then practically begs for people to post more?

Also idk why ppl are so fixated to scum partners Day 1. It is not helpful on Day 1 because it asserts unnecessary bias in the game state. It's not too late to look for a partner after we flip scum.

True. I don't think it's a waste of time though since it at the very least gets people talking.

I'll reread Vax's ISO. I understand the wagon but I gut + 116 tr him.

116 is part of why I scum read Vax tbh. You'll likely become null for me if they flip red, I have to check your ISO again in case I missed something.

[Roden]

Rock I can't see how there's even a sliver of a chance that you're town now. I gave you a fully detailed explanation and rebuttal with multiple questions, and you basically ignored all of it to just repeat yourself again and push a narrative against me that makes no logical sense. I know I tunneled you but I at least kept hitting the breaks and tried to see how you could be town. Your case against me isn't even a tunnel at this point, you're just trying to brute force suspicion on me without even trying to make it look like it makes sense.

If you're actually town, there's just no way for me to believe it now because of how often you keep arguing in poor faith. Singling me out for doing the exact same things four other people did, and dropping Sang from your scum list even though you were totally convinced they're scum, ultimately just doesn't look good. If you're town, you're 100% throwing this game.

[Roden]

What the hell just happened?

Why are we voting Johnny now???

Like I get Sang's point that Johnny still hasn't said anything despite us now being two days past his VLA. And he is definitely still top 3 likely to be scum at this point. But he's also said literally nothing incriminating. Vax isn't even bothering to defend themself anymore.

What exactly makes the sudden switch to Johnny compelling?

[Roden]

And no, I'm still not putting my vote on Clasko unless we have a Cop and they flat out give us a guilty verdict. Or if Clasko scum slips. I genuinely don't understand the suspicion on him.

[Roden]

I just don't get it. Vax got prodded and still hasn't posted. Why aren't they defending themself here if they thought they should be seen as obvious town? It honestly just looks like they gave up.

[Roden]

I don't like how sharply GIF is reversing course on Vax the moment we actually try to wagon them. I don't know if I just can't understand GIF's thought process, or if he's just pushing names and seeing who bites.

I don't trust GIF, but Sang trusts him, and I kinda trust Sang, so this just feels conflicting to me. GIF's case against Vax made me feel better about my own read on Vax, but now he's just tossing that all out over...what? I literally don't know why Vax is suddenly town.

[Roden]

GIF and Rock, both of you make me want to drink.

[Roden]

I think your vote tracker is bugged, those aren't the correct votes.

[Roden]

I need to hear from more people on this. The sudden Vax town read gives me bad vibes and 4D chess isn't enough of an answer.

Sang, what about GIF's sudden change from intent to hammer, to a180 u-turn into a town read, is compelling to you? What are you seeing that I don't?

Jumble, what's your read on the situation? Do you lean Johnny or Vax more as scum?

T3, I don't disagree about Rock but I seriously doubt we're voting Rock today at this point. Why the vote on him?

Clasko...man, I just need you to speak up more. Don't make me paranoid by staying silent so often.

Rock, I assume you're staying on Vax since they're part of your hero read. How does GIF's town read affect this?

Vax, did you give up?

Johnny, are you even playing?

[Roden]

If Johnny's next post is just another prod dodge that adds nothing, I'll vote him. Otherwise I'm sticking on Vax.

[Roden]

GIF is town for post 355.

[Roden]

Jumble, what's your read on the situation? Do you lean Johnny or Vax more as scum?

Vaxkiller. I think I've made my point on Vaxkiller well enough, given that they still haven't posted. Johnny is still pretty neutral to me. The only real argument you could make out of his 3 posts is that he's suffering from newbie scum nervousness, but they're not a newbie. Therefore, we have literally nothing on the slot.

I feel the same way, I feel more confident voting Vax then Johnny. But, even though I'm not sure of GIF's thought process here, I think that as long as he's pegged at least one of his reads correctly, we can't lose.

[Roden]

*Vax than Johnny, sorry

[Roden]

Rock I can't see how there's even a sliver of a chance that you're town now. I gave you a fully detailed explanation and rebuttal with multiple questions, and you basically ignored all of it to just repeat yourself again and push a narrative against me that makes no logical sense. I know I tunneled you but I at least kept hitting the breaks and tried to see how you could be town. Your case against me isn't even a tunnel at this point, you're just trying to brute force suspicion on me without even trying to make it look like it makes sense.

If you're actually town, there's just no way for me to believe it now because of how often you keep arguing in poor faith. Singling me out for doing the exact same things four other people did, and dropping Sang from your scum list even though you were totally convinced they're scum, ultimately just doesn't look good. If you're town, you're 100% throwing this game.

Didn't have the time/energy.

I feel like I've explained my thougt process well enough to answer your questions tho.
Your reasons/persistence stood out. Sang's null cus I don't think you guys are partners.

You didn't answer my questions. You ignored them and said "I think it's you if I just ignore how it doesn't make sense". You flat out said if you discounted parts of my argument, then your own argument makes sense. That's anti-town as fuck.

You keep going back to my reasons and persistence, but continue to ignore the fact four other people are doing the exact same thing that I'm doing. Why are you only focused on me but continue to ignore everyone else even when they continue to shade you? T3 just voted for you and you didn't even react. Sang and Jumble still scum read you and you couldn't seem to care less. You're only just now voting for Clasko after ignoring all game, and it looks like you're only doing it because I don't want to vote for him.

Rock, I assume you're staying on Vax since they're part of your hero read. How does GIF's town read affect this?

Still my hero solve but I'm fine with voting either tbh

So you're scum reading four people but not voting for any of them? Or even trying to get a push going on them?

And you're wondering why I think you're scummy??

[Roden]

Rock, I legitimately don't understand how you could possibly think you're coming off as town here.

[Roden]

You keep going back to my reasons and persistence, but continue to ignore the fact four other people are doing the exact same thing that I'm doing. Why are you only focused on me but continue to ignore everyone else even when they continue to shade you? T3 just voted for you and you didn't even react. Sang and Jumble still scum read you and you couldn't seem to care less. You're only just now voting for Clasko after ignoring all game, and it looks like you're only doing it because I don't want to vote for him.

T3 and Jumble I townread and think their suspicions are genuine.
Also forgot about T3's votes.

@T3:

why GIF when you thought he was town in 265?

You seem more likely to flip red compared to sang.
Because apart from his initial sr on me, his reads feel logical and towny.

Voting Clasko rn cus I realized that Vax's play has a lot more reason to come from town than scuum.

Rock, I assume you're staying on Vax since they're part of your hero read. How does GIF's town read affect this?

Still my hero solve but I'm fine with voting either tbh

So you're scum reading four people but not voting for any of them? Or even trying to get a push going on them?

And you're wondering why I think you're scummy??

I scumread Clasko, Vax and you.
Vax to a lesser extent now tho.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. We made the same reads with slight variations on you, and yet you singled me out. You keep saying I seem more likely to flip red compared to everyone else but you still haven't actually given a single concrete reason. This is what makes me think you're scum instead of just a really bad town player, because you keep purposely making up reasons to scum read me, especially since you did the exact same thing to Sang. You bring up logic but I haven't seen a single logical explanation from you. In fact, you keep disregarding logic and admitting that you are.

Like, I get it if you're scum, you're just playing the game. You have to do this. But man it's frustrating trying to talk to someone who refuses to argue in good faith. You're not even looking for logical inconsistencies here or trying to catch me in a "Gotcha!" moment. You're literally just singling me out and repeating yourself over and over while adding zero content. It's annoying.

[Roden]

I need to hear from more people on this. The sudden Vax town read gives me bad vibes and 4D chess isn't enough of an answer.

Sang, what about GIF's sudden change from intent to hammer, to a180 u-turn into a town read, is compelling to you? What are you seeing that I don't?

Jumble, what's your read on the situation? Do you lean Johnny or Vax more as scum?

T3, I don't disagree about Rock but I seriously doubt we're voting Rock today at this point. Why the vote on him?

Clasko...man, I just need you to speak up more. Don't make me paranoid by staying silent so often.

Rock, I assume you're staying on Vax since they're part of your hero read. How does GIF's town read affect this?

Vax, did you give up?

Johnny, are you even playing?

I think he is scum. There are 2 days left before the deadline which  is more than enough time for a wagon to materialize.

I don't think it's happening today tbh. The votes are on GIF's scum reads and it would take a lot to move the votes over like that.

I think GIF has locked down at least one scum tbh. I don't think he's got both since my PoE has one scum between Vax and Rock, but I trust GIF at this point and I don't think he can be 100% wrong with his reads. My biggest reason is that Samg also trusts him and seemed to see what GIF saw.

You keep going back to my reasons and persistence, but continue to ignore the fact four other people are doing the exact same thing that I'm doing. Why are you only focused on me but continue to ignore everyone else even when they continue to shade you? T3 just voted for you and you didn't even react. Sang and Jumble still scum read you and you couldn't seem to care less. You're only just now voting for Clasko after ignoring all game, and it looks like you're only doing it because I don't want to vote for him.

T3 and Jumble I townread and think their suspicions are genuine.

Also forgot about T3's votes.

@T3:

why GIF when you thought he was town in 265?

You seem more likely to flip red compared to sang.

Because apart from his initial sr on me, his reads feel logical and towny.

Voting Clasko rn cus I realized that Vax's play has a lot more reason to come from town than scuum.

Rock, I assume you're staying on Vax since they're part of your hero read. How does GIF's town read affect this?

Still my hero solve but I'm fine with voting either tbh

So you're scum reading four people but not voting for any of them? Or even trying to get a push going on them?

And you're wondering why I think you're scummy??

I scumread Clasko, Vax and you.

Vax to a lesser extent now tho.

I was pretty sure Vax is town so I voted gif for pushingVax. I did not think gif was scum but we weren't limming Vax.

I actually get your reasoning, because I feel as strongly about Clasko as well. I don't town read you as strongly as GIF does, but if he's still got you town locked even after you voted him then he must've noticed a definite town tell somewhere.

Like y'all may think 1 day and 20 hours is a plenty time for an elimination, but y'all need to realize that 3 ppl are effectively not playing the game and there are only 6 votes to achieve 5-votes-elimination.

Yeah, this is what's worrying me at this point. At this point we don't really have a choice.

I intend to hammer in a few hours.

[Roden]

Actually you know what, fuck it. It's three days past his VLA and he still hasn't posted.

VOTE: Johnny

[Roden]

Don't look at me. My heart clenched when I saw he was Tracker, there was no way I was supposed to know that when the dude wasn't posting and just kept prod dodging. Let's not pretend like I orchestrated Johnny's elim or even wanted him out first. I sure as hell wasn't the only vote on him.

What I want to know is why Sang got NK'd over GIF. Because I genuinely think scum made a mistake here if they think they can frame GIF for a wrong elim. Pretty sure he bread crumbled why earlier and scum didn't catch it.

[Roden]

Make no mistake though, Johnny fucked us over here. Dude knew he had a strong PR and still went on VLA instead of replacing out. Then he kept promising to post but never actually did. He should've asked to replace out and he just chose not to. Nobody thought that looked good.

[Roden]

What I want to know is why Sang got NK'd over GIF. Because I genuinely think scum made a mistake here if they think they can frame GIF for a wrong elim. Pretty sure he bread crumbled why earlier and scum didn't catch it.

Are you still convinced that GIF is town?

I'll be honest, it went from a solid 95% to a shaky 80%. It isn't even necessarily how he's been playing, but because of something he said.

Show me Roden, where does GIF crumb?

I'm gonna wait for him to post because idk if he's just gonna explain it himself now that he actually survived to Day 2. But the crumb itself was Post 355.

[Roden]

Rock I might think you had a point if you hadn't already cowered out of your last hero solve and scum reads. First you think Sang is guaranteed scum, then back off the moment people town read them over you. Then you think Vax is scum and hero solve Vax/me, which you also back out of when I say I also scum read Vax. Then you scum read Clasko for five seconds before then putting a naked E-1 vote on Johnny. And now you're backing out of your scum read on Clasko's slot (who I town read a week ago anyway) and hero solving T3/me.

With each and every one of your scum reads, you add less and less content and reasoning behind your reads until it's now devolved to the point you're flat out just sheeping everyone else's reads (which you also accused me of lol).

I genuinely don't know what you're doing here because if you're scum, you know I flip green and you'll just get voted out since I'll be proven to be truthful with my reads. If you're just a clueless townie, if you flip me you're still going next and we just lose the game over a OMGUS vote. Literally no matter your alignment, your OMGUS tunnel on me over scum reading you makes you lose. I don't understand why you'd play this poorly as either scum or town.

[Roden]

And furthermore, why don't you think it's weird that Sang got NK'd here over GIF? You don't think it's even a little bit convenient that they specifically died after their last post mentioned doubting your alignment? Or how they showed concern about my own alignment?

If I'm scum, why do I kill Sang here the moment they start doubting you again? Hell, I can't even imagine what you gain out of it either, because it just looks suspicious on both of our ends. You don't think there's a possibility we're both town and scum just wants us to focus on each other?

[Roden]

Btw the reason for my 180 on Vax yesterday was because I thought T3 was softing a mason with Vax.
Sang saw the same thing which is why he told me my approach was +town.

Oh...

Uh, I should probably just say this now. I thought you were basically confirmed town because it looked like you were trying to bread crumb that you were a Mason or Friendly Neighbor. It made no sense why you not only felt confident on your reads but also that you assumed you would be NK'd at some point instead of voted out even if you were wrong. But if you guessed T3/Vax were actually Masons, then I was way off point with my guess.

[Roden]

Rock, do you have anything to say?

Vax, are you still playing?

[Roden]

Yeah, I already pointed it out last page. I was wrong since I thought GIF had bread crumbed himself as being a Mason or Friendly Neighbor, since he seemed to imply he would only ever be NK'd rather than voted out, even on Day/Night 2. He isn't confirmed town anymore, though I'm hesitant to scum read him since he just seems too bold to actually be scum. But I guess that's more of a gut feeling rather than anything I can hone in on to read him.

As far as where my mind is, GIF still seems set on Clasko/VFP slot and Vax as the scum pair, but it also looks like everyone else seems ready to vote Rock. I am as well, but the silence and lack of resistance is making me paranoid. That along with the Sang kill has me low key terrified that I'm the actual clueless townie all along and that the Rock vote feels too easy for a good reason.

However, Vax's silence is also worrying. I'm feeling pretty certain that there's one scum between Vax and Rock, and it's possible scum!Vax's best play is to stay silent and let us wagon Rock. And that would add up with GIF's scum reads. However, if Vax is scum then their partner is 100% one of my town reads.

On the other hand, it could really be just this easy and Rock is scum. If he is, I have a feeling I know who his partner based off a tell I noticed in Day 1.

[Roden]

What don't you get...? I've explained it twice now.

[Roden]

What I want to know is why Sang got NK'd over GIF. Because I genuinely think scum made a mistake here if they think they can frame GIF for a wrong elim. Pretty sure he bread crumbled why earlier and scum didn't catch it.

Are you still convinced that GIF is town?

I'll be honest, it went from a solid 95% to a shaky 80%. It isn't even necessarily how he's been playing, but because of something he said.

Show me Roden, where does GIF crumb?

I'm gonna wait for him to post because idk if he's just gonna explain it himself now that he actually survived to Day 2. But the crumb itself was Post 355.

Btw the reason for my 180 on Vax yesterday was because I thought T3 was softing a mason with Vax.
Sang saw the same thing which is why he told me my approach was +town.

Oh...

Uh, I should probably just say this now. I thought you were basically confirmed town because it looked like you were trying to bread crumb that you were a Mason or Friendly Neighbor. It made no sense why you not only felt confident on your reads but also that you assumed you would be NK'd at some point instead of voted out even if you were wrong. But if you guessed T3/Vax were actually Masons, then I was way off point with my guess.

[Roden]

This back and forth is kinda pointless. It doesn't look like scum vs scum, but if you're both waiting for the other to slip up then I don't think we'll get anywhere.

Can we get a prod on Rock and Vax, btw? Rock's been absent for two days now, and Vax never even showed up for Day 2.

[Roden]

Vax...come on...

The game basically has to pause until Monday then. Vax is getting scum read by basically everyone except T3 at this point, but I don't want a potential repeat of what just happened with Johnny.

[Roden]

Oof.

[Roden]

I can't promise zero hesitation, but I'll feel a lot better about it. If Rock flips red I think it looks bad for you GIF, but I have a feeling Rock's partner in this case could be T3. I mentioned it earlier that someone may have made a meta tell, and I believe that was when T3 put a pointless vote on Rock at the end Day 1. It looks looked like distancing tbh, and his push on Rock now could potentially be a bus for town cred.

However, if Rock flips green then I feel a lot more confident locking you and T3 as town. And since we're both town reading Jumble's slot, that really would just leave your reads as PoE.

VOTE: Rockhopper

[Roden]

Oof again.

[Roden]

Unless someone wants to convince me VFP is scum?

I've been town reading the slot, but the back and forth with GIF made that a bit more shaky

Looking forward to finding out how y'all managed to lynch your Tracker on Day 1

I wish I could tell you it was because scum expertly manipulated the game state and convinced us against all odds that Johnny had to be scum.

I also wish I could tell you that Johnny actually played the game.

[Roden]

Although logically I think you're just scum here, I find it odd how there's just so little outside of me and you here. Even more so from T3. It makes me want to think the frustration is real but again, logically spoken here...

Addressing this specifically because it's pinging me. We were actually focused on Rock and Vax more before this, and I've already said your back and forth with Vax felt pointless. It still doesn't seem like it's really going anywhere since GIF is more or less just answering everything with quotes.

I can't tell if you're purposely doing it, but your posts look like you're just trying to obfuscate GIF's posts and his intentions. I don't fully understand his reasonings myself, but the things you keep poking at are what I feel GIF has been the most clear about. I town read your slot when it was Clasko, and I still somewhat am, but your posts are making me a little less confident.

[Roden]

GIF, can you tell me why you don't think Rock is scum? He seems to be your most shaky town read, but what makes you town lean him over Clasko/VFP and Vax?

[Roden]

The only person I feel confident town locking at this point is Jumble/Umlaut slot. If only because I'm seeing lines being drawn in the sand and they've consistently suspicious of the same potential pairs. I was worried about being potentially pocketed but I don't see them scum paired with anyone at this point.

[Roden]

GIF, can you tell me why you don't think Rock is scum? He seems to be your most shaky town read, but what makes you town lean him over Clasko/VFP and Vax?

Same reason as D1 really.

Also by "shaky" it's more like

Roden
T3
Jumble
Rock

==
Big
Flipping
Gap
==

VFP
Vax

What was the reason on D1, again? I know you basically PoE'd him, but what specifically pinged you as town?

[Roden]

I see where you're coming from, but town reading someone who's town reading you is just a safe thing for scum to do. He didn't really think much of your reads anyway, but was totally fine to vote any of them out over his own scum reads. I wouldn't say he did well under pressure either since he kept trying to bounce between wagons and eventually just gave up when it looked like everyone seemed ready to vote him.

I guess giving up and replacing out is NAI, but it looks bad after he kept trying to tunnel people who've been largely town read. The only vote I agreed with him on was against Vax but he quickly backed out of that when I said there had to be one scum between him and Vax. I can't imagine why town!Rock wouldn't want to vote Vax if he believed Vax and I were scum buddies.

[Roden]

but town reading someone who's town reading you is just a safe thing for scum to do

This is something you look for process not result.

Not quite sure what this means but I'm gonna assume you're not bullshitting me. I don't want to campaign for Rock right now anyway, since his replacement hasn't been found yet and I'm confident we can determine his alignment through Vax's flip anyway.

[Roden]

Assuming that I understood your original comment correctly, I mean that "townreading someone who townreads them" is something that shouldn't be read for alignment as a result by itself. It's more important to look at the steps of how one is townreading other independent of vice versa.

That makes sense actually. Idk maybe I'm just tunneled. I just don't think Rock's progression in his reads felt natural, and his insistence on scum reading anyone and everyone who scum read him is either lazy scum hunting or an attempt to avoid genuine scum hunting.

Regardless I'll just drop it for now.

@VFP

What's your read on Vax? I'm figuring you don't trust GIF, but do you think Vax is town?

[Roden]

Yeah my vote on Johnny wasn't good. I wanted either Rock or Vax out, but we'd run so low on time and in general we were all feeling pressured to just send a wagon at that point. All the momentum had evaporated from my scum reads' wagons and it didn't look like I was going to be able to convince anyone to go back. But there was also just a frustration with Johnny at that point, and I don't think anyone could have ever expected that a PR would VLA and prod dodge all game. Especially since he had to know by the end that we were all suspecting him.

If you think there's like a scum between me and Rock/HEM, I'm 100% down to just vote him at this point. I've been pushing the slot for awhile but GIF really doesn't seem to think either of us are scum. Both me and Rock/HEM both suspect Vax as well, so that also contributed to it, since in my case I'm just confident there's a scum between Rock/HEM and Vax.

After putting together the above, my reads on Roden and Rockhopper have just about reversed from where they were shortly after replace-in. Rockhopper has some surface-level scummy moments D1, but they don't fit any sort of agenda and can easily just be town faux pas. Roden jumped on

every one of these

which is exactly what I expect scum looking for a justifiable scumread to do, and he has held onto that justifiable scumread ever since while in practice voting with whatever wagon was convenient. Rockhopper was also on those wagons but his vote on Vaxkiller can hardly be called

convenient

and his vote on Johnny is much more consonant with the gamestate and his own stated positions than Roden's is.

VOTE: Roden

This is likely scum. (But if not, HEM is.)

Just want to point out that I didn't just jump on wagons. I feel like you're leaving out context because any wagon I did vote on, I pushed for people scum reading them to actually explain the read. Rock meanwhile jumped from vote to vote, to wagon to wagon, to hero solve to hero solve, and often gave very little justification each time. That was the main reason I honed in on the slot, it looked clear to me that he was just doing whatever he could to survive instead of actually attempting to scum hunt.

Again, I keep pushing for my scum reads, but the momentum just isn't there. Too much focus has been on Vax and Clasko/VFP. However, I haven't just been sheeping GIF since I have stuck to my guns and continued town read Clasko/VFP (though a little less confidently on VFP admittedly). If I really was as opportunistic as you're claiming, I would've just pushed GIF's scum reads at this point since he's clearly more influential than me.

[Roden]

I can't promise zero hesitation, but I'll feel a lot better about it. If Rock flips red I think it looks bad for you GIF, but I have a feeling Rock's partner in this case could be T3. I mentioned it earlier that someone may have made a meta tell, and I believe that was when T3 put a pointless vote on Rock at the end Day 1. It looks looked like distancing tbh, and his push on Rock now could potentially be a bus for town cred.

However, if Rock flips green then I feel a lot more confident locking you and T3 as town. And since we're both town reading Jumble's slot, that really would just leave your reads as PoE.

VOTE: Rockhopper

After seeing HEM's recent posts, I think I was on point with this. His push on T3 looks like a desperate bus attempt for town cred after getting backed into a corner.

[Roden]

So then just vote T3 with me if you agree with me

Because voting T3 over you makes no sense when I'm confident there's one scum between you and Vax. A T3 flip that turns green doesn't clear you, doesn't address Umlaut's reads, and does nothing to prove or disprove GIF's locked reads. A T3 flip that turns red just implicates you at this point, which does nothing for anyone's reads since you're already a common factor in many scum pools.

This is just a weird request in general anyway since the only scum read your slot shared with me is Vax, and that was to clear your name. It makes zero sense to wagon people associated with you instead of just voting you, or really anyone getting heavily scum read. If you're town, why would we vote anyone who would be scum by association with you?

What's your case on T3, Roden? I searched your ISO for "T3" and I haven't found any besides thinking he's scum because he's my partner.

You clearly didn't read my ISO then. I stated Day 1 that I was looking for his meta tells, and the pointless vote on your slot at the end of Day 1 pinged me.

[Roden]

...why will you vote people based on other people's reads? you said so yourself that T3 pings you.

???

How is this even a question? A major point of this game is trying to figure out who's reads are genuine, who's are fabricated, and who's actually on point. Discerning which is which for each player can and will win games. Unless I claim to hero solve or have 100% accurate proof that I know who the scum are, I can't be certain that I'm actually right. If someone builds a case that I feel is stronger than my own

and

is someone that I feel confident reading as town, then yes of course I will vote with them. For instance, there was absolutely no point in continuing to push your slot Day 1 when not only did GIF make a compelling case against his scum reads, the majority of the other players also believed the same. If I'm just stubborn and lock my vote in no matter what, that's 100% anti-town in my eyes.

Furthermore, why do you keep talking around the point that T3 pings me by

association

with you? It wasn't an individually scummy thing that he did, but an associatively scummy tell. But if I'm wrong on about you, then that tell means nothing.

[Roden]

Also, it's just good in general to try to give everyone as much information as possible. I don't think flipping T3 offers as much info as a flip from Vax, you, or even myself.

[Roden]

'm just confident there's a scum between Rock/HEM and Vax.

Can you explain this to me?

This is a bit of a mixture between scum reading both of you, Rock's reaction to me agreeing to vote Vax when he hero solved me with Vax, and GIF's scum pool. I don't know if GIF is 100% correct in his scum reads since I do feel strongly on Clasko/VFP being town, but I do think he honed in on at least one scum. When Rock hero solved me and Vax, he quickly backed off when I gave my rebuttal on his scum read towards me but agreed with him that Vax was likely scum. FMPOV, it made me think that if Rock was scum, he wouldn't pair me with his partner, and that if he knows Vax is actually town then it doesn't leave him with any more defenses other than that he thinks I'm scum. When I later stated that I thought there had to be one scum between Rock and Vax, he damn near flipped his read on Vax entirely and instead hero solved me with T3. Which, interestingly enough, happened

after

T3 voted Rock at the end of Day 1. That's where my bus town cred theory comes from.

However, if your slot is town, then the simple explanation is that Rock just OMGUS voted and hero solved anyone who scum read him. Me agreeing to vote Vax might've spooked him into thinking I was either trying to bus my scum buddy, or perhaps make him think he got his hero solve partially wrong since he was so sure I had to be scum. If that's the case, if the Rock slot is actually town and I agree with GIF that Vax looks scummy, then that's the most likely player to flip red.

You're definitely playing differently than Rock did though, and you're much harder to get a read on. Your push on T3 does me think I was right to suspect your slot is paired with him, but you're also not really pushing me either. You also agreed earlier that Vax looked scummy too, which pulls me in the direction that your slot could actually be town.

[Roden]

what's a hero solve, roden?

Uh, it's when a player thinks they know who all the scum are, but I usually see it getting used jokingly. Rock seemed serious though. I'm surprised you don't know what that is seeing as you've been on this site longer than I've been.

[Roden]

When Rock hero solved me and Vax, he quickly backed off when I gave my rebuttal on his scum read towards me but agreed with him that Vax was likely scum. FMPOV, it made me think that if Rock was scum, he wouldn't pair me with his partner, and that if he knows Vax is actually town then it doesn't leave him with any more defenses other than that he thinks I'm scum.

Why wouldn't scum!Rock, in your POV, pair you with his scum partner?

Because if the three of us have the most focus Day 1 and there's two scum between us, scum just loses. If we vote out Vax first and they flip red, Rock and I would still continue to pressure each other on Day 2. In this hypothetical scenario, if I actually get voted out then my last words will have been to vote Rock as everyone sees my slot turn green. I don't see how scum!Rock expects to live past Day 3 in this scenario where Vax is his scum buddy.

I'm surprised you don't know what that is seeing as you've been on this site longer than I've been.

I have never heard that term ever before.

Weird, I keep seeing that term get thrown around every game I'm in.

[Roden]

Plus, as it turns out, we had a Tracker. I find it incredibly unlikely that two scum pair each other with the exact same townie when scum had to have known there was a chance for a Tracker to be in play.

[Roden]

I'll give it some thought, but if no one else puts Rock at E-1 by tomorrow then I'll just do it my self so we can keep the game going. I think scum is spooked and don't want to declare any allegiances by putting either of you within hamner range. Though it's also entirely possible it hasn't happened because Johnny isn't here.

I really need to hear more from GIF and Jumble too.

Why are you willing to put Rock at E-1 when you had other scumreads this time? You were explicitly saying beforehand that you don't want to add E-3, E-2, E-1 votes so you can analyze them better, but this is very contradictory to what you said.

Pretty sure the post you quoted answers your question there. Sang and I already talked about it beforehand anyway, which you had to have known if you're bring up the E-x conversation.

[Roden]

HEM, it honestly just looks like you're looking for any scrap you can to justify a scum read on me, but everything you're bringing up all have really easy answers and explanations. Did you not like my posts from last page? You haven't really responded to them in a way that shows you're trying to gauge or read me, more so just looking for holes that you're quickly finding out don't exist.

[Roden]

Why are you so sensitive about me scumreading you? I'm trying to get a stronger read on your slot and answering me would help. Thanks.

I make one comment and that's somehow sensitive...? I've been fully cooperative here, don't try to paint this as something else.

I haven't still seen the part where you have explained why you said you approach a game at a distance, and then proceeds to put an E-1 vote on a wagon when you explicitly said that's not how you work. It's better that you answer that now in real-time so it's faster for me and I don't have to read every little post.

I literally say in the post you quoted that I voted since the game was going nowhere and something needed to happen. Sang had also pressured me previously to vote, which you had to have read to even ask this question. I town read Sang at the time, which I clearly wasn't wrong to do since they flipped green, so I decided to side with them at the time. Maybe it looks weird to you since you're reading in real-time, but at that point the game was going at a snail's pace and I was desperate to get people to actually start playing.

I do lowkey suspect Johnny too but I can't justify a vote on him when he isn't even here.

Can you explain what was going on inside your head about Johnny here that made you lowkey suspect him, when he wasn't even there? (As opposed to null)

Johnny was null at the time, which was why it was lowkey. His absence itself felt like a missing puzzle piece, and I wasn't the only one who felt the same.

This doesn't change my scum read on Rock since I still think they made some scummy/opportunistic posts.

I also missed this. Can you also explain what was going on inside your head that make you think Rock made scummy/opportunistic posts prior to #189?

Now I'm feeling GIF's frustration. Can you just read the thread before I start answering you with quotes? I explained this and many of the questions you've asked.

[Roden]

EBWOP

I make one comment and that's somehow sensitive...? I've been fully cooperative here, don't try to paint this as something else.

Yes, you are sensitive about being scumread. I haven't even mentioned scumreading you or anything. Just asking questions. But you came at me with this:

HEM, it honestly just looks like you're looking for any scrap you can to justify a scum read on me, but everything you're bringing up all have really easy answers and explanations. Did you not like my posts from last page? You haven't really responded to them in a way that shows you're trying to gauge or read me, more so just looking for holes that you're quickly finding out don't exist.

I'm sensitive about being scum read...but you haven't mentioned scum reading, but you are scum reading me...?



You're very transparently trying to paint me as something I'm not here. Reacting to you is NAI, and pretending it isn't really doesn't look good my dude.

Can you just read the thread before I start answering you with quotes?

I'm asking nicely. Answer my questions, so I don't miss out on anything and mislead myself. Pleaaaase

Only if you stop pretending I haven't already been doing exactly what you've asked.

I literally say in the post you quoted that I voted since the game was going nowhere and something needed to happen. Sang had also pressured me previously to vote, which you had to have read to even ask this question. I town read Sang at the time, which I clearly wasn't wrong to do since they flipped green, so I decided to side with them at the time. Maybe it looks weird to you since you're reading in real-time, but at that point the game was going at a snail's pace and I was desperate to get people to actually start playing.

No, I've read that. It just makes me curious why you went against what you said was your playstyle to put Rock at E-1 just to make things happen. Meanwhile, you could have still did what you said you were gonna and it would also make things happen as well. Thanks for answering.

I didn't say voting people was against my playstyle. That is a massive twist of my words. I said I wanted to wait, and when nothing happened I just did what I could to advance the game since we literally only had four people playing the game at the time.

Why are you so desperate for a "Gotcha!" moment here?

[Roden]

I'm sensitive about being scum read...but you haven't mentioned scum reading, but you are scum reading me...?



You're very transparently trying to paint me as something I'm not here. Reacting to you is NAI, and pretending it isn't really doesn't look good my dude.

?

Quote the post that says I'm scumreading you

Quooote et

Why are you so sensitive about me scumreading you? I'm trying to get a stronger read on your slot and answering me would help. Thanks.

[Roden]

Considering the previous player in your slot was also doing exactly this, it's pretty obvious you're looking for something to scum read me for.

[Roden]

You ARE sensitive about being scum read.

If this is your metric for sensitivity, I can't really say much, can I?

Umlaut thinks that there's at least one scum between us, but my gut says you're town. So I'm here trying to get a stronger read on you by making sure I believe that you believe what you believe. I'm gonna do this by asking repetitive questions because I just replaced in. If you're town, you'll have no problem clearing some things up for me because then I can see that you're town and focus elsewhere. Are we good?

If that's what you're doing then fine, I'm just getting major flashbacks to Rock death tunneling me over similar things that I've already explained. It's frustrating because I honestly just don't want to dig through the thread to answer questions I've already answered, some more than once. It's a pain.

This doesn't change my scum read on Rock since I still think they made some scummy/opportunistic posts.

I also missed this. Can you also explain what was going on inside your head that make you think Rock made scummy/opportunistic posts prior to #189?

Can we go back to this?

Roden, thoughts on Rockhopper?

I didn't like the pocket comment or the wagon vote, and I agree with Sang that Rock's reasoning for his vote was flimsy at best. I don't think he really thought that vote through at all. He could just be trying to put on pressure just for the sake of it.

If it comes down to it, I'll vote him if no one can agree on a more suspicious player. I personally want to pressure Jumble more though since I think he's getting off easy here.

I don't see it but I should prolly move elsewhere for a while
VOTE: Vaxkiller

Not a fan of him trynna start a wagon on GIF instead of commenting on the gamestate. And His questions feel kinda pointless, something scum would do to appear active.

While I don't disagree that it was a weird post, they at least did finally add something, and it isn't a vote I disagree with either. GIF's not exactly scummy, but he's at least coming off very anti-town right now.

Either way, I'm not sure why you're changing your vote like that? You're kinda in the hot seat atm and should be affirming how town you are, not deflecting onto another player. Vax isn't pinging me enough to earn some pressure right now anyway.

Rock- Other than everything else that has been said, I looked through his earlier posts again and I got the sense that he's playing very opportunistically. In the beginning he tried to wagon Clasko, joked about pocketing T3, then tried to wagon Sang. It just doesn't look town at all to me. Hopping his vote onto Vax to try to get a third wagon going looks even worse.

You're kinda in the hot seat atm and should be affirming how town you are, not deflecting onto another player.

I did defend my reasoning if that's what you mean.

I understand your reasoning for the vote, but you essentially just gave up on your scum read of Sang and tried to put attention on someone else. You're not giving us any reason to think that

you're

town though.

[Roden]

HEM, I'm really surprised you're not scumreading Roden after all that talk on page 26 about his hypersensitivity to being scumread. Were you going anywhere with that?

Guy could just be paranoid about me tbh he was scumreading me. he checks out so far.

I'm very very paranoid of you lol. I can't tell if you're just trying to make holes or look for legitimate ones. You're also the opposite of the problem I had with Rock, since with him I couldn't tell if he was bad scum or bad town. With you, I can't tell if you're good scum or good town. I know this isn't a helpful analysis but it's strange that both of you managed to keep pulling me back and forth in each direction.

In regards to Umlaut's VCA, I think both of us have reason to scrutinize it, but I'm still sticking by my town read on him. I was concerned when the slot was Jumble that he might've been pocketing me, but if Umlaut was scum he would've just continued the trend, not scum read me. He'd definitely push HEM over me as well since that would have less of a path of resistance.

I do think Umlaut could just be wrong, which for me makes me lean Vax more over HEM as scum. I don't think Umlaut is paired with Vax in that case though, just based off of how Jumble was previously acting. He was fine with the same elims as I was, I think for the slot to be scum then everyone's reads would have to be wrong and I just don't think that's likely.

Also HEM, in case you're wondering, I didn't ignore the questions, I'll answer them in a bit. These posts just caught my eye when catching up on the thread.

[Roden]

i appreciate it, Roden.

• when you said he tried to wagon Clasko, did you mean his very first post in RVS? what's opportunistic about that?
• what pocket comment? i think i missed it. i ctrl+F'd "pocket" in rock's iso and didn't find any.
• am i right that you think rock's vote was opportunistic (second vote on the wagon) because you thought it was joking/baiting scum? but you also said later that you haven't ruled out that it was ballsy play either. if you thought that sang baiting pr is valid, why did you conclude that rock's vote was opportunistic?

- Rock's vote on Clasko was the third one on him.

- The pocket comment was when Rock and T3 joked about clearing and pocketing each other on page 2.

- I think I was unclear about the joking/baiting post because this confused GIF too. What I meant was that I figured Sang was either just joking about having a PR, or was trying to bait scum into thinking they had one. Which I believe actually happened since they were the first NK. However I actually made a mistake here, since at the time I thought Rock had been the third vote on Sang but it was actually Jumble. That's why I thought that vote was opportunistic.

Individually these points didn't mean much, but looking at them a together later I thought it looked odd, and Sang thought similarly at the time as well. Since I was town reading them, I figured we might be onto something and decided putting pressure on Jumble and Rock might get us somewhere, or at least advance the game. At this point though it isn't pinging me as much, since Rock ended up doing other things that came off much more overtly scummy.

[Roden]

Who was scumreading Jumble again D1

That was Sang and Clasko. I remember since I actually noted that in a post, since I thought it was odd that people were so split on Jumble.

If T3 is scum his thing towards Vax is not covering buddy
It’s WKing town for towncred.

I can see this making sense only because a T3/Vax pair would be way too blatant. Odd choice for WK town cred though, his read on Vax wasn't really affecting my read on him.

Not sure what to think of Vax's reaction to getting fake hammered. It feels instinctual, but at the same time it's weird that Vax apparently didn't know that GIF had already voted them. GIF's been hard pushing them almost all game and was the first vote on them Day 2.

[Roden]

:/

I like this back and forth even less than GIF and VFP's from a couple days ago.

T3, can we get an update on your scum reads?

HEM, what are your thoughts if T3 flips red? And what if he flips green? Who do you push next in these scenarios?

[Roden]

HEM, I'll be honest. Your posts are compelling and make sense, but that's what's scaring me here. I've felt confident your slot was scum for awhile now, and after what happened Day 1 I was sure that if T3 was scum then he was your partner. It's not just his meta tell either, my gut says you'd bus him for town cred and your opening posts really pinged that for me.

But you also have a point about Umlaut. I've had the slot as town read for most of the game. And I just can't imagine why he would toss me out of his pocket just to make me 1v1 you if he's scum. But if I still have him town locked even after he scum reads me, then I guess he's still in a good spot. You and I just fight each other Days 2, 3, and 4 in the case where we're both town all along, and he just wins.

Idk. On some level, it sounds too good to be true. It's a hell of a plot twist though. You've given me a lot to think about here.

VOTE: T3

Let's make this happen.

Oh.

I really don't like this sudden turn.

[Roden]

VOTE: T3

You need to claim and tell us your reads. What made you change your position on HEM?

[Roden]

It's not just his meta tell either, my gut says you'd bus him for town cred and your opening posts really pinged that for me.

Then if you think I'm bussing, shouldn't you just vote T3 and get it over with?

I just wanted my vote in a separate post. It's a weird organization thing.

[Roden]

VFP...? It's not as surprising as the Sang kill, but I was expecting GIF. This basically confirms him as town at this point, he wouldn't NK his own scum reads.

Kinda wish you guys had given me a chance to question T3 btw. I wanted to know why he suddenly "scum read" me at the very end even though he'd town leaned me all game. Like yeah he was just scum in the end, but I wanted to see how he'd respond.

Also HEM I really hate that you left me with a plot twist right before the night phase. It gave me something to think about, but in reality I just ended up overthinking about Umlaut/Jumble over the past couple days. I kept going over their ISOs and going back and forth on whether or not Jumble was trying to pocket me. And Umlaut's sudden turn on T3 still doesn't read right. But I still don't think it makes any sense for scum!Umlaut to needlessly unpocket me. I just ended up having a very paranoid but fruitless weekend.

[Roden]

Jesus, fast as hell E-1. Umlaut, please don't insta-hammer, we should give Vax a chance to talk at least.

[Roden]

Oh wait, they already claimed VT I think.

[Roden]

It just feels a little fucked up to hammer without even giving them a chance to talk. And I want to hear Umlaut's thoughts as well.

Unless Umlaut thinks Vax isn't scum?

I'm pretty sure he still thinks it's between us.

[Roden]

Vax is a lim today regardless of his alignment.
Even though he’s prob just scum here.

I don't disagree with this tbh, Vax is the best elim choice.

[Roden]

VOTE: Vaxkiller

Please let the game end. If it doesn't please just NK me. Don't make me do a 50/50.

[Roden]

This is my actual nightmare scenario. I fucking knew we were going to be the final three if it wasn't Vax.

Umlaut I saw your PR crumbs too. It was really obvious but it only added to my paranoia that HEM could actually be town and that you were going for a big brain play. I honestly hoped you were scum, since even if it meant my read on HEM was wrong then at least it didn't seem to be a guaranteed loss for town. Because if you were town and HEM was scum, you already had said you would vote me over HEM. My heart sank when I got your FN message.

I'm going to take my time with this, because I'm not nearly as sure in reality of Roden over HEM as I acted like I was on d2.

This makes me feel a little less defeated at least, but I don't think you're going to vote HEM. He just convinced everyone to auto wagon Vax, even GIF who'd already said Vax would be confirmed town if T3 flipped as scum. Rock was almost a guaranteed elim on Day 2 but HEM completely switched that around almost effortlessly. Meanwhile, I've tried to push the slot literally all game and it never went through. He's just better at the game and I can't match that. And please don't take this as AtE because that's not what I'm trying to do here, I genuinely just don't think I can out-convince him. That's the exact reason why it's the three of us here. HEM knows he can out talk me and that you were already set to vote me over him, this is the best possible situation for him.

My break's over, but I'll have more to say later. All I can do at this point is try to reason with you about things that just don't make sense. I'll leave you with this for now:

Do you think it makes any sense at all for me to bring you to a final three scenario if I'm scum? Why do I spare you and kill GIF when he not only hard town read me all game long, but also said he would likely vote Rock/HEM if Vax flipped green? Who does this final three benefit more: me or HEM?

[Roden]

Forgot to do this so quick vote.

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

[Roden]

Umlaut, on which night did you send a message to Rock/HEM?

[Roden]

Actually, how can you have seen my one PR crumb and not know the answer to that question?

I'm actually confident I know the answer but don't want to make assumptions.

Night 2, why does it matter?

Because of what HEM said here.

HEM, care to explain why the push for such a fast hammer yesterday?

I was confident it would flip scum, and if it wasn't I wanted to be set up to be placed in ELo with you (that's why I had a big sign that said 'I will elim Umlaut in ELo)

There's only one reason he wants to go to ELo with you, he knows you're much less likely to vote him over me. However, he didn't set this up on Day 3, but on

Day 2

. Immediately after you made your case against us, he tried to make a case that you were scum but didn't even bother voting for you. And when he saw me consider the possibility you were scum, he continued to push it. However, he's saying he knew all along that you were a FN and that he wanted us to be in ELo. But it doesn't make sense for town!HEM to set up a final three like this if he shouldn't have that information yet.

However, we know due to the set up that we're in Column B. The second scum has to be a Rolecop. I think HEM scum slipped this by admitting he knew you were FN when he shouldn't had known yet.

And if you want to make it even more obvious that he wanted the three of us in a final three scenario as early as Day 2:

I'm willing to lim T3 instead of Vax. But I'm not taking Vax to a possible ELo situation.

This was a little while after the VCA discussion and right after Vax got fake hammered. He made it clear he would never allow Vax to make it to final three even when general consensus seemed to be that T3 and Vax weren't partners. I even say a few posts later that I still think HEM is bussing T3.

This is why Vax got flash wagoned btw. He set up the Vax mis-elim in the same post he bussed T3. He didn't give anyone any time to try to put pressure on him, because he absolutely needed to just get to the final three scenario as quickly as he could. GIF was there over VFP because GIF is stubborn and would be more likely to flash wagon Vax due to not wanting to be wrong. However, GIF never in a million years makes final three when he town reads me all game and said he would vote Rock/HEM if he was wrong about his reads, so of course he's the next NK.

[Roden]

"i saw your pr crumb too" but his heart sank that you were friendly neighbor

Umlaut I saw your PR crumbs too. It was really obvious but it only added to my paranoia that HEM could actually be town and that you were going for a big brain play.

I honestly hoped you were scum, since even if it meant my read on HEM was wrong then at least it didn't seem to be a guaranteed loss for town. Because if you were town and HEM was scum, you already had said you would vote me over HEM.

My heart sank when I got your FN message.

Leaving out context is always a 100% scum move.

[Roden]

Roden, why'd you go along with the insta-lim on Vax anyway?

Two reasons. One, because GIF went along with it and I trusted GIF at that point. And two, I honestly just wanted it to be Vax because that would be easier than our current final three situation.

[Roden]

Wouldn't knowing I'm town be a reason to want to go to ELo with me, in the universe where he's town?

Yes, but he isn't town. And he seemed to know you were town and wanted to take you to ELo

before

you sent him the FN message.

Thing is, he can't actually take you to ELo if he's town anyway. He has to claim I'm scum now, and alleges he wanted to trap me by saying he would vote you, but if that's true why would I knowingly walk into a trap if I'm scum? I would have to be the Rolecop, and I 100% would've checked you if that were true after you heavily hinted at having a PR on Day 2.

If I'm scum, don't I just kill you on Night 2? Why do I keep you alive when you possibly have a PR and openly stated you would vote me out if given the chance? GIF even pointed it out of his own accord that I would've killed him Night 1 if I was scum, since I thought he'd bread crumbed being a PR near the end of Day 1.

Do you at all think it's likely that scum never once attempts to night kill people who bread crumb PRs? If I'm scum, what do I gain from keeping you alive and killing VFP and GIF when both town read me?

[Roden]

Like, I know WIFOM is a thing, but it just seems so obvious to me that HEM had to kill all the people town reading me to have a chance at winning ELo. I genuinely don't understand how the kills don't make it cut and dry here.

[Roden]

I can't even be mad because I'd be pissed if you just let me win. But man it sucks that almost every single player we pocketed replaced out with an SE.

[Roden]

Vax, I genuinely think you won the game when you went on VLA. That caused so many leaves and set us so far back.

[Roden]

Roden, I want you to know 888 was very compelling at points and gave me pause. I don't think you really could have done better at arguing your way out today.

That's honestly better than I hoped. I didn't think I could win if I brought GIF to end game over you, and going by dead chat that was ultimately true. I don't think I win in any ELo tbh.

@Roden

That's the site health right now. Most newbs replace out because the pace isn't as fast as Among Us or Town of Salem. If you know how to invite other people here so that there's a big flow of newbies, that would be great. I don't even know how new people discovers this site anymore since forums are dead.

Is the site dead? I'm guessing it's slower than it used to be going by some old threads I've read. I randomly found the forums myself completely by accident.

[Roden]

Yeahhh I really should've pushed you. But I don't think I beat Vax in ELo either tbh.

[Roden]

Top tier scumplay, Roden!

Thanks, did what I could. Sorry if I went too hard against you.

Yeahhh I really should've pushed you. But I don't think I beat Vax in ELo either tbh.

You would have. GIF vs Roden vs Vax

Maybe. I'm interested to see how it would turn out.

Good game!:)
Thanks for modding.

Yeah, thanks for modding ffery. GG everyone.